NEW FROM THE FAA - UPWIND?! - AC 90-66C gives pilots and ATC guidance on departure/traffic patterns
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ก.ค. 2024
- The FAA has just issued clear guidance on our question about the Upwind versus Departure leg. Ask, and you shall receive!
Find Advisory Circular AC 90-66C - Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations at the FAA website:
www.faa.gov/airports/resource...
Get the Ground School App and become a more confident pilot. Free 3-day trial!
✅ www.learnthefinerpoints.com/g...
Get a free gift video now when you join my mailing list:
🎁 www.learnthefinerpoints.com/f...
First video on this topic here -
• FAA TRAFFIC PATTERNS -...
These videos are listener-supported by the generous donations of our Patrons. Patrons receive extra benefits (including minimally edited lesson videos) for helping to make these free videos available to everybody:
✅ / learntfp
I've got videos and podcasts coming every week in 2023. Stay tuned to the Facebook page for all the updates and for more information on The Finer Points visit our website:
✅ www.learnthefinerpoints.com
Listen to my weekly Aviation Podcast:
📻 www.learnthefinerpoints.com/p...
Follow me on Instagram:
📸 / learnthefinerpoints
Become a member of AOPA today and add pilot protection services:
✨ aopa.org/membership-ppc #aopa
Proudly Sponsored by BOSE. Makers of the A30, the quietest headset in the industry.
✨ Get yours here: worldwide.bose.com/aviation
#Boseaviation #Bosea20 #Boseproflight
🎵 Music by Michael Bizar
- - - - - - - - - -
📝 Contents
0:00 - Intro
0:50 - A new Advisory Circular
2:27 - Where to find aircraft on the upwind
3:04 - No real agreement in the comments
4:03 - The guidance we needed
5:45 - Wrap up
- - - - - - - - - -
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 71 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ทรงชัยน้อย vs รักษ์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_AGPnq2p6Js/mqdefault.jpg)
AC 61-21A (Revised 1980, 72) shows just 5 legs in a traffic pattern: upwind, crosswind, downwind, base, final...no mention of "departure" leg at all; FAA-H-8083-3A (2004, 7-3) describes both an upwind and departure leg. So, sometime between 1980 and 2004 (at least according to two books on my shelf) some pedantic FAA employee decided to needlessly add confusion to a situation that was crystal clear before. The latest AC should have just gotten rid of the "departure" leg...there's enough confusion at uncontrolled airports as it is...now we have to consider whether the person saying departure leg is really leaving the pattern, or is just confused. Great job FAA! Isn't it clearer to just announce your intentions as "left closed traffic" or "straight out departure to the West"...vs upwind/departure? That's my $0.02!
Looks like the change happened in the mid '90s maybe: the AIM from 1994 (9/16/93) doesn't mention "departure" leg in figure 4-52[1], 4-54[1], or 4-54[2], or in the description of the legs starting on 4-3-1, but it is shown in the '98 AIM (7/17/97) in figure 4-3-2 and 4-3-3 and is described on page 4-3-1.
As a past CFI in Canada, I've always referenced the non-active leg (parallel to downwind) of the circuit as the upwind and the leg after lift off as the departure leg.
100% correct! It is STILL that way even after issuance of this incoherent revision.
Thank you for mentioning helicopters. The AIM does state that helicopters are able to use a traffic pattern opposite to the fixed wing pattern, AIM 4-3-3 a(3) (generally used in cases of a high volume of helicopter activity). In some cases the chart supplement will state as much, an example would be KEUL (Caldwell Executive Airport) in Idaho. I’m a dual rated pilot giving helicopter flight instruction and have had a couple instances where there’s been near misses due to fixed wing aircraft flying the upwind in our traffic pattern.
There is a difference between an opposite pattern 1/2mile to the side of the runway and an upwind a few hundred feet to the side of the runway.
I need to read the new AC but my assumption is that upwinds are not intended to be far enough from the runway centerline to interfere with opposite downwind.
I’m a student and I personally had no confusion on this. My understanding was exactly what the ac says. Departure is departure, leaving the airport. Upwind is the opposite direction of the downwind when staying in the pattern. I have seen it in a diagram as well.
I also think many have misunderstood the use of the word parallel, thinking next to. However if I fly directly over the runway I am still parallel to the runway.
Thanks for covering this Jason!
You mentioned that of the two descriptions of upwind in the new guidance, the "implication" is that one of them is that the aircraft will be remaining in the pattern. If that's so, the FAA should state that more specifically. I don't think they helped the issue that much. Regarding departure if staying in the pattern, I've been taught and read that when entering the runway (at non-towered airports) to say ..."departing runway XX left closed traffic", "or will be staying in the pattern", so departure doesn't always mean leaving the airport environment. And not to say "taking the active"...
Doug Draper's comment below is right on, "this will help me locate you..." To me that's the whole issue with "upwind". Which upwind are you talking about. And if it's on the dead side, in a standard pattern, state left upwind just like you would for left crosswind, left downwind, etc. Just one extra word!
Thank you for the video. Keep up with the good stuff.
OK. It makes sense to me. I’m good with it. Thanks FAA - and Jason!
glad to hear it being clarified
Thanks for this help. Also, the side slip video may be very helpful for AirVenture when making a right base to final turn (all one turn on Rnwy 27). A little bit of over travel can be accommodated with your side slip technique.
Thanks for always keeping us informed....I like that shirt too!! :)
Good point. Easy to forget for the older guys that don’t fly around training airports. At the airlines, you’re always departing. Thanks
This makes pretty good sense.
Jason, you're the best...."just the facts, mam, just the facts", as the old black and white show used to say
🙏🏻🙌🏻
I wish the FAA was as clear in their wording as you’re trying to make it sound, Jason. Sadly, I don’t get that clarity from just a few bolded words when the literal definitions still contradict what they’re trying to supposedly clarify. Even IF they defined it to be as simple as you make it out, that system is still inherently confusing and I don’t see people conforming to it. 😞
Well said! Thanks.
This sentence is pretty clear: ""The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern, and the aircraft continues on its direction of flight away from the airport."
literally, just finished reading the subchapter in Sporty's ground school course (that I've had for at least 4 years and am finally committed to finishing it)
Was always wondering the difference between upwind and departure. Never have used departure leg in real ATC but still it's good to know new knowledge. Thanks for great information! Wish I could get flight lesson
departure leg is really an IFR term
1. Upwind leg. A flight path parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing
Plain, simple. It has been there for years.
So after base, you turn upwind? ;-). I always thought of "departure" describing the half of the upwind leg that leaves the runway, just as "final" describes the half of the upwind leg that goes down to the runway.
@@jfollas Say you're on final and a plane taxis onto the runway. You decide to go around. You should side step to the upwind side of the runway to keep the departing aircraft in sight. You are now parallel to the runway traveling in the same direction as landing and departing aircraft. This is the upwind leg. If you just took off and you're on the extended runway centerline (not parallel to it), you are the departure leg. At least that's what it used to mean before the FAA issued this confusing AC that refers to two completely different things with the same term.
You're a beautiful man, Jason. Keep up the great work. The community loves you for it.
I
I'm impressed by the power you wield to get an answer so quickly, and in this form. Hell, it took me a year just to get a new registration!
😂it was a total coincidence
That makes sense. I can’t believe they didn’t make a bigger mess. Thanks for looking into this
I'm in the "upwind" camp, but I think it's most important to make your intentions clear. If I'm departing from runway 18, and my direction of travel takes me to the north, my practice has always been to join the traffic pattern and depart from the downwind leg. Which I'll announce as: " traffic, Skyhawk 123AB taking runway 18. Entering left traffic, departing the pattern to the north. ." The normal upwind call, then: " traffic, Skyhawk 123AB turning left downwind for runway 18. Departing the pattern to the north. ." If my direction of travel happens to be to the south, it would be: " traffic, Skyhawk 123AB taking runway 18. Departing to the south. ." Followed by: " traffic. Skyhawk 123AB is off the departure end of 18 climbing through , departing the area to the south. ." Whether you say "upwind" or "departure" matters less to me than whether I hear you say: "Departing the area" or "entering left/right traffic." Concisely and clearly stating your intentions beats nitpicky verbiage all day long if you ask me. Feel free to disagree! I'm open to having my mind changed. If you're right, I want to be right too. But I've never had anyone complain about it.
some places are so busy you can't use up that much bandwidth. Even taxi calls can't be made some times.
Thank you! So essentially, the difference between the terms is the pilot's intentions.
I use Departure when leaving like they ask but when staying around the pattern I say just off 28 remaining in right traffic 28 then airport name. Sometimes to make thing exciting I forget the name of the airport or screw up the runway number but most often I forget my N number, I have only owned the plane for 2 years.
In the interests of flight safety there should only be one named leg and it should be upwind not departure. A sensible radio call would include "departing from the upwind leg... yada yada"
Speaking of the FAA,
I was wanting to pursue a professional flying career, however, the problem is the new rule on part 135 and part 91 state that operators have the option of forcing retirement of pilots of age 65 just like the part 121 pilots, it’s too bad they decided to do this because now being that I am 59 years old and in great health, it still would make spending a small fortune to pursue a career that is uncertain at best would not be worth it, yet they say there is a pilot shortage right?
Unfortunately, this revision to AC90-66 has added ambiguity. If a pilot reports "upwind" they are in one of two places. If a pilot reports "departure leg" they may or may not be leaving the pattern. Prior to this change no one could point to a written FAA document that depicted or discussed anything other than distinct and separate departure and upwind legs at non-towered fields. Now it is ambiguous as they added clarifying words ... Sheesh!
Thanks for seeing the bigger picture: safety and clarity.
Amongst the 50% who are reg thumpers and the 50% who evangelize established best practice, I heard/saw very few on either camp that pointed out the big picture.
When people shift from the need to be right to the need to be coordinated, we all are safer.
So what do you choose to call the extended centerline leg if you stay in the pattern? I'd have voted for "takeoff leg" and left the upwind leg (opposite downwind leg) the way it is. Some distinction needs to be made between the 2 possible areas now known as upwind leg.
Nothing wrong with using 'upwind leg' if staying in the pattern and 'departure leg' if leaving, it alerts everyone in the area to what your intentions are and where they should be looking to spot you
Yeah but upwind leg now means two different possible areas (extended centerline and opposite downwind). Not very descriptive. I'd have voted for "takeoff leg" if staying in the pattern.
If I am departing on the “departure leg” I would simply call on rollout that I’m “departing straight out runway…” with another call when exiting the vicinity of the pattern “departing the area to the … last call.”
Same. I don't remember the last time I specifically called the "upwind" or "departure" position when doing circuits or leaving the area.
@@iliasfaqirI hear it ALL the time around here… north TX. Why the departure leg even needs a radio call is the mystery to me. After a touch-and-go, where else would an aircraft be? It comes across as desire to just blab on the radio. Goodness, get a CB to fulfill the fetish somewhere else, lol.
The illustration you show seems to be a right turn pattern. Im very new to this but arent most patterns left turn? My question 2 is I always wondered that upwind or departure isnt that also for the final? Thats where I get confused. Thanks so much.
Fantastic guidance from the FAA. Well done.
All it does is muddy the waters officially...
Agreed.
So when did “position and hold become line up and wait?
What do you consider the “traffic area”? The pattern?
Upwind leg would mean the leg before your crosswind turn. Upwind side/dead side would be the opposite side of the downwind. I never heard it called the departure leg where I'm at in Canada. But if someone said departure leg, I would of be able to decipher what they meant.
That makes sense to use each term in the proper context to better communicate the pilots intentions, but In my opinion, adding an extra term can complicate things. To me its better if they never included a new term.
If im on the upwind leg, im either somewhere opposite the downwind leg or on the extended centerline? Not a very helpful location description. I think i would prefer to use takeoff leg for the extended centerline and upwind leg for opposite downwind.
Quick, do a video about the ambiguity of the right-of-way regulations… those need quite a bit of improvement.
I'm one of those pilots that was adamant about using the "departure" nomenclature because of the FAA docs. I do see your point from the last video, but it was too uncomfortable to be operating outside of FAA guidance (for pilots) by calling upwind. I much prefer the clarification the FAA came out with, I'll be adopting this new distinction in my flying.
Also, what a shock that the FAA actually did something in a timely manner AND it made sense?!? I can't help but think maybe TH-cam is the way we get the FAA to fix things 😂
🙌🏻
It makes no sense to have two different places in the pattern called "upwind."
When I am flying left closed traffic in the upwind is it still ok to say that I really buttered that landing?😂😂
I don't think it's going to change much of anything. 'Departure' leg is still not in the Pilot/Controller glossary under TRAFFIC PATTERN so I don't think the controller's use of only 'Upwind' will change and pilots will probably continue to follow suit.
That outcome is what I would have expected logically - that it would be "upwind" in the circuit, and "departure leg" if you're departing the circuit area. IDK, it seems kinda obvious really...
If you're departing you've "already" announced it with your intended direction. If you're staying in the pattern that's "already" been announced too, if you're entering the pattern on the upwind you're entering on the dead side "already". What the heck... are they (FAA) just bored. Never let nerds become bored, terrible things happen lol.
Interesting they said "is often used" instead of "should be used". It's like they are purposely trying not to be specific still, and acknowledging or even supporting a lack of consistency. Anyway, i should show this to me DPE from my PPL check ride 😂
Maybe “into position & hold” isn’t the most dangerous part of airport jargon any more 😮
I thought it was “Line up and wait”. But I know what you meant. Which is to Jason’s point … clearly understanding intent of traffic in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport. When in doubt, “Look”, query, expand the radio conversation until you are clear in your understanding of the traffic situation and how you will fly your aircraft. Safely & efficiently.
I love CFI nerd talk.
Yea this is great and all, the FAA still doesn't mandate aircraft fly with radios so that is still a thing...
OK, Now I actually read the referenced AC 90-66C. Appendix A, page A-1 diagram illustrates plainly that indeed the UPWIND leg is parallel to but distinct from the departure leg. A mirror image of downwind. I think you are misinterpreting the document. Expectation bias I believe. Still love ya. Keep it coming. And come to W24 and you'll finally understand.
It is that. And it's the extended centerline of the runway if you're not leaving. This is straight from the AC: "The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern, and the aircraft continues on its direction of flight away from the airport."
Ok … No changes … Got it
Did we really need an AC for this?
Silly. The AIM is clear and specific regarding this subject. The final approach and departure leg are connected to the runway. All else is in the pattern, initial climb-out, crosswind, upwind, base, and downwind legs.
Not so, read the new AC
@@TheFinerPoints The AC refers to the AIM and PHAK, no terms are changed. What I said stands. Example. From the AC. " Entry to
the downwind leg should be at a 45-degree angle abeam the midpoint of the runway... " "Airplanes on takeoff, or executing a go-around, should
continue straight ahead until beyond the departure end of the runway" . The downwind leg and the departure end of the runway are the same terms and referred to in the same way as in the AIM and PHAK. I have seen terrible arguments over non-towered straing in approaches, and this AC does offer guidance on that, they "disourage" it, but do not ban or prohibit it
@@TheFinerPoints Also, the AC reprints the diagram from the AIM, Chapter four where all legs and runway references are depicted. If you need to refresh, scroll to the 14th age of the AC.
Here's my theory. It shouldn't be departure leg for the same reason ATC isn't supposed to say, "Line up for takeoff". If the pilot just catches the "takeoff" and does so, bad things can happen. Using the word departure would mean you are departing. Staying in the pattern is absolutely not departing.
It should be the opposite leg.
Where I live it's definitely upwind. CALLSIGN departing upwind 34 climbing 3 thousand feet.
That area on the other side from the circuit is the non traffic side. So when joining overhead you would descend on the non traffic side. Radio call for example would be CALLSIGN descending non traffic side 34.
I'm your fan BUT, as I said before, upwind on DEAD side of pattern is misleading. Come visit us in VA. One way in landing to west. One way out taking off to east. Right against KLYH class D to south. If entering pattern from east or north, to avoid flying through Departure path and without making straight in, an UPWIND or Cross Wind entry is preferred. It is the mirror image of downwind. You MUST reference the runway for it to not be totally ambiguous. Come see us some time.
I’m not forming the same conclusions from reading the new AC. It seems the FAA is just saying the the term “upwind” is a separate term than “departure leg”. They still say that the upwind is parallel to the landing runway in the direction of landing. The bold sentence just says that upwind is “often” used to reference the flight path after a takeoff or touch and go. In your video you claim the bold says “it also shall be used for take off and touch and gos”. I may need reading glasses but I’m just not drawing the same conclusion as you from this AC.
How do you explain this sentence, straight from the AC: "The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern, and the aircraft continues on its direction of flight away from the airport."
I still say this is too confusing. Should be one name. Period. Upwind is opposite the downwind. Upwind representing 2 places in the area seems dangerous. Also, look at the ATC definition of upwind. It’s parallel. They mean to refer to the side opposite downwind NOT a path inline with the runway.
This issue should have been settled 100 years ago.
If I depart on crosswind, that's the departure leg, if I depart downwind that's the departure leg... How can I call upwind departure if I can depart in so many ways/legs? UPWIND.
I have had the controller call "a left downwind departure". I understood that.
If you're under tower control, it's on them. If you're at an uncontrolled field, standard departure is straight out or a 45 in the direction of the pattern, nothing else.
Please remember to say Right or Left upwind as related to the runway. This will help me locate you, especially at a non-towered, uncontrolled airport.
critical
Final is just final, but upwind implies a turn, so left upwind for left traffic?
@@chrisschack9716 - good point. Immediately as you leave the runway surface? Maybe. It would give me a better idea what to expect from you. Are you on in the upwind direction, parallel to the runway, offset from the runway for some reason.
Departure leg my heading when leaving pattern. Upwind is upwind. Shouldn’t have to explain that. Seems this AC made things worse.
the first 400' AGL is still upwind to me. Then the turn to departure leg ....
You gotta be kidding me? What was this change based on?
Too many accidents, near misses? Or did they just have nothing better to do . I'm going to cover all the bases by now using the term upwind departure leg lol
There was NO change from the FAA. They clarified what always/already was.
AIM 4-3-1 has defined and depicted the upwind for many years.
@@SoloRenegade well not sure how long you've been flying but I've been flying for over four decades and I remember flight school like it was yesterday and no mention of it we always referred to it as upwind. I learned to fly at one of the busiest general aviation airfields in the United States.KAYZ on Long Island, although at the time I was there I could hardly believe it was the busiest probably one of the slowest. No control tower never heard on unicom the term departing always upwind
@@Shojohn11 I too always referred to it as upwind, as that is what it is. I did my training in multiple states at multiple airports, in multiple aircraft. Everyone knows it's teh upwind, no one is confused when you call it the upwind, and once again FAA has affirmed it is, and has always been, the upwind.
His last video had everyone thinking upwind was not the FAA term, that the FAA never depicts it nor defines it, nor uses it, and this was false. The last video had everyone claiming upwind didn't exist and it's really called the "departure leg", even when staying in teh pattern, even when doing a go around, even when not descending to land and doing another lap in the pattern...
@@SoloRenegadeFIG 4-3-1, -2, and -3 all depict the leg after takeoff as "departure", and the definition of departure includes "at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end ... and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude" which I was taught were the prerequisites for turning crosswind. Clarifying that this is the "upwind" if staying in the pattern does seem like an actual clarification.
@@ChristopherRorvick they tried claiming the upwind doesn't exist at ALL, even when flying the pattern, at pattern altitude, and that in no text was upwind depicted nor defined, and that simply was not true. 4-3-1 both depicted it and defined it, and now teh FAA has left no doubt in AC 90-66C.
Departure is not a leg. Period.
A leg is a portion of a larger whole.
This doesn't clarify anything. It makes it more confusing. The FAA is using the same terminology for two different things. "N12345 on the upwind". Are they climbing on the extended runway centerline? Are they parallel to the runway at pattern altitude? According to the FAA now, either is correct. The same term for two completely different things. This is dangerous.
I've always (>40 years) called it the departure leg to differentiate from the side of the pattern opposite the downwind. Leave it to the FAA to formally conflate the two. There should not be confusion in the pattern. With their guidance, how do you identify an upwind departure or pattern entry (opposite the downwind)? SMH....
Huh. For 50 years I’ve always called it the upwind. Glad the FAA is finally trying to get the two of us on the same page!
Yet another opinion trying to nail down a precise location for a term that has no precise location. Upwind is parallel to the landing direction. Parallel. There is left upwind, right upwind, and when not specified, it can be close to the extended runway centerline or BE the extended centerline. The AC says just that, and how I've been operating as ATC 30+ years. In the same way pilots specify the location of their downwind, like midfield left downwind or right downwind abeam the numbers, they need to specify where their upwind is located in an uncontrolled pattern. The AC doesn't change past practice. It's only made some people camp out on insisting upwind can't be in the same general area as a departure leg. Upwind can even directly overlap a departure leg. When I have 5 planes in the pattern and I see a 6th plane about to enter 45 to downwind, I'll tell traffic just off the runway end climbing out, "Continue upwind, I'll call your crosswind for traffic entering the 45." It's 100% correct book phraseology.
CFI nerd talk LOL
Jesus this just makes it more confusing. Guys it really was not that difficult and sorry I don't agree with Jason on this one. It *was* clearly worded and very easy to understand.
Departure leg: from where the plane rotates to where the plane turns crosswind. That's it, very simple.
Upwind: the path parallel the runway in the "dead zone".
That's how it is in the pilots operating handbook.
If someone says they're on the upwind, you're looking for them parallel to the runway *at pattern altitude*.
If someone says they're on the departure leg, you're looking for them from the surface up to crosswind.
Those are two *very* different things and that's why they had two different names.
Thank you everyone for making this way more confusing than it needed to be.
First off a departure is an IFR segment not VFR leg.
As for VFR, you are literally going up wind. "XY34 on upwind departing east"; upwind is your LOCATION, departing to the east is your INTENDED ACTION. (caps because bolding is currently malfunctioning)
Ah, so what. As long as you can understand the instructions the ATC could call it the broken leg for all I care. If, as a pilot you want to make a big deal about it and let it bother you, good luck.
HEAR HEAR !!
Once again common sense plays no part in aviation. Departure means departing the ground. As in, “N123 is departing runway 4 , staying in the pattern.” when was the last time you heard someone say "N123. Departing. Xyz (airport)and not give the runway number? Using “Upwind for that airspace as well as the “dead Side” creates the potential for two aircraft to be in conflict, Exspecially when people are distracted from the radio, such as a student and instructor talking about takeoffs or nonsterile cockpits with friends going for joyrides. A taxiway is a taxiway and a runway is a runway and a ramp is a ramp. Why the FAA would give two different airspaces the same name only shows they want to make life more difficult when trying to follow their rules.
Awesome comment. I agree!
Due to the new DEI mandates, we will soon refer to the "crosswind leg" as the "trans leg". Also, ensure that you clarify your aircraft's preferred pronouns with ATC on check-in.
Disagree, Jason. Your interpretation is effectively advocating for a lack of situational awareness by using a single word to describe two different locations in the pattern at a non-controlled airport. I believe you and others are reaching this conclusion because you are applying controlled operations (Tower instructions & controller/pilot glossary) to AC-90-66C Non-towered airport operations; you’re adding context to AC90-66C that isn’t there.
Try reading the upwind note “often used to reference the flight path flown after takeoff (or a touch and go)," as a cautionary note and not an instructive note.
ETA: AC-90-66C Non-towered Airport Operations explicitly defines “upwind” - using the words ‘separate and distinct’ and an illustration. How can we interpret it any other way?
Ok, so how do you explain this definition of the departure leg: "The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern, and the aircraft continues on its direction of flight away from the airport."
"...continues on it's direction of flight away from the airport" is as clear as clear gets.
@@TheFinerPoints Thank you for the reply and for the opportunity to further express my opinion.
If you didn’t notice, the last page of AC 90-66C is a feedback form. I would like to encourage you to create a YT short that encourages pilots to complete the feedback form with their comments.
Now… What you quoted above is not the definition of the “Departure leg,” it is the definition of departure. Conspicuously absent from AC 90-66C is the definition of a “departure leg,” despite using the phrase “departure leg” in the definition of “upwind leg.” Clearly, the AC is not perfect.
I would suggest that the de facto definition of departure leg comes from within the definition of departure: “The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. Note: The departure climb continues until …” {Continues from where? Departure climb continues from takeoff until … } i.e. the departure climb is the departure leg.
That aside, the definition of departure does not include the word ‘upwind’ at all so I’m reluctant to insert the word or concept of upwind into the departure definition; however, interestingly, the definition of upwind explicitly excludes the departure leg by declaring “The upwind leg is separate and distinct from the departure leg.”
If there were a definition for departure leg, I believe it would be something like: "the flight path from takeoff to a point 1/2 mile beyond and 300' from pattern altitude," because that is the point at which "closed traffic" and "departures" diverge.
I have been an avid fan & subscriber for like 6 years and will always tune in. I’m honored to have the opportunity to discuss this issue.
You have sown TONS of confusion in the aviation community with the previous video. Can't go anywhere now without people spreading incorrect information.
Departure Leg and Upwind are clearly defined and depicted in AIM 4-3-1, and now clarified again in AC 90-66C.
Hopefully this settles it once and for all.
I missed that video and I guess I'll watch it sometime but isn't he just referring to the new changes on June 6th?
@@Shojohn11 this video is a follow up to his previous video that set the entire aviation community on fire over something that used to be well understood, that was clearly defined by the FAA. It shows the power of an influencer to mess everything up.
Jason spread the confusion? It sounds to me like you either didn't watch the first video, or you did and the meaning escaped you. The confusion existed prior to the video. Be careful pointing fingers, pal, you might just end up making yourself look dumb. Oops--too late.
The confusion already existed (as you can see from my interviews with ATC in the first video) - I just lifted up the rock so to speak.
@@Frank-4v yes, because immediately following his video, every other forum or pilot discussion between then and now has had m encountering pilots trying to claim teh upwind doesn't exist and is not depicted anywhere in FAA texts. and I have to constantly correct them.
So yes, Jason spread confusion among the community, even if that was never the intention.
Disappointing video on a few fronts... the early parts of your video (and excerpt from video 1) referring to the "I've always done it that way" mentality is something we as aviators, and especially instructors, should strive to avoid. It's ok to bruise our ego, admit a mistake and change behavior. Secondly, your paraphrasing of the AC is incorrect. At 4:27 you state "It clearly states in bold that it also will be used for takeoff right after takeoff and touch and goes, right so if you’re staying in the pattern is the implication there because and you only know that when you go down to what they say about departure and again in bold says departure should only be used when leaving the traffic area" ... The bold section does NOT say "will also be used". The AC states "often used to reference" ... perhaps the AC should've been clearer in stating "often incorrectly used to reference". Notice the earlier phrase of "the upwind leg is separate and distinct from the departure leg" which invalidates your basis of them being the same. Also, in the departure section, you paraphrase as "departure should ONLY be used when leaving the traffic area". This is not stated. Paragraph 6 on page A-1 never states Departure is *only* for departing traffic. Departure LEG is defined by geography, not pilot intentions. Departure CLIMB is defined by pilot intentions. Moreover, the diagram on pages A-1, A-2, A-3 clearly show departure leg and upwind as being different. Notice on A-3 where step #4 DEPARTURE can be followed by step #5 CROSSWIND. In general, I don't understand the persistence of the "upwind" crowd. Why make pilots look in 2 completely different locations for traffic describing themselves as upwind? Why not use distinct language for each area around the airfield? Otherwise, we should just merge departure/crosswind/downwind/base/final/upwind into a general "I'm nearby, try to find me"
Thanks for the feedback but that's the reason I brought in ATC. Both of those interviews were to demonstrate that I was not alone but rather that the majority of pilots and controllers were in agreement. I fully admitted in the first video that would go whichever way the guidance pointed but it's clear. I think you're getting into dangerous territory by assuming the FAA left out words. They are very clear in the AC: "The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern, and the aircraft continues on its direction of flight away from the airport." That last sentence is as clear as the sky is blue.
Can’t even start a video of yours anymore without suffering through several ads. Pure greed on your part. Especially for yet another video you have already covered.
The videos are all published to Patreon ad free if you prefer. $5 per month and you won’t see any ads
Other than that - I’m not sure what to tell you, I simply can’t work for you for free. 🤷🏻♂️
That’s an interesting way of thanking @TheFinerPoints for free flight instruction 😂
We have serious issues with CFI's just moving on to the airlines or corporate flying which always leaves us with less experienced CFI's. Be thankful we at least have one full time CFI that's increasing the quality of the aviation community. God forbid you pay him a few pennies after he's put probably a couple hundred grand into ratings.