The fact that nobody (including Relic) has made a fully realised Warhammer (or Dawn of War) game with the scale of Supreme Commander is a tragedy. It seems so obvious yet nobody wants to do it. The franchise was built for that scale.
It may not be on the scale of Supreme Commander and turn based but Final Liberation still feels bigger than DoW when it comes to the scale of the battles.
What immediately killed it for me was troops being unable to shoot on the move. It made it feel more like a starcraft 2 mod rather than having an identity of its own.
It was disgutsting you had to grind skulls to get the moving and shooting perk. Or having NADES lol. Did not take them long to drop that skulls money system but too little too late.
I mean other then vehicles it wasn't a really useful feature in DOW 1 like being able to create "cover" that really didn't give much cover so not much of a criticism there
Dow3 felt like a *bad* StarCraft mod. In Dow 3 managing your army just felt tedious. Dow3 lacked the snap quick response of a StarCraft game and army management was a nightmare. The game somehow felt both floaty and clunky.
It's pretty funny how, when making dow 2 & 3, focus was given to hero units, and they always talked about them as if dow 1 didn't have them, even though it did and they were very well integrated into gameplay.
Yes, DoW1 heroes were better implemented than DoW3's. You could attach them to squads, upgrade with wargear. They had sync kills. They rivaled Warcaft 3 heroes. Sheesh. The "focus on heroes" part was part of the public agenda and they kept parroting that nonsense.
@@DrMetropolis Perhaps, it does not make it better rts game though. DoW 1 was great unique rts, and amazing for it's time. DoW 2 when it came out just felt like company of heroes with warhammer mod. There is a reason DoW 1 still most played game, more players then 2+3 together.
My hypothetical DoW IV would be just DoW I Dark Crusade but improved. The biggest flaws of the game was the awful pathfinding, the lack of variety in missions (mainly because they all were 1v1, except the Eldar stronghold).
Dude, yes. I played Dawn Of War 1, Dark Crusade, and DoWII all for the first time this year, and Dark Crusade is by far the best of the 3, with the small caveat that it has no story.
been saying this... just a remastered dark crusade would hit SO HARD... yet they're giving us more games that are DOA like darktide that releases 2 months late and isn't completed 2 months later
If DoW 4 played like DoW 1 with DoW 2's visuals and physics it would be perfect for me. It may not of been possible in 2009, but it sure is now when you look at what CA are managing to do with Total War.
It seems the game wasn't even supposed to have a campaign. That's why "cinematics" feel like an afterthought - because they are. The brighter colours are there to attract the "MOBA audience", because SEGA. The gameplay, well, is there for the same reason. Somebody at exec position looked at Riot financial data, then looked at DoW sales, and came up wit this fantastic idea. Fantastic in its idiocy, that is.
Also don't forget one factor - back then Starcraft 2 started to losing players. Considering overall direction in gameplay changes (lack of cover mechanics, sync-kills, fixed camera, castration of unit updgrade system, even overall art direction and style) this was really a attempt to: a - get SC2 players, b- get MOBA crowd, c- use hype of DoW and W40K fans and d - DEFINETIVELY turn skulls into MTX system. Author completely forgot about this (bc was later on deleted by Relic), but at first doctrines and Elites (both chosen before match, like in MOBA) neede to be bought via skulls. Those were avaliable only via grind by playing game and levelling elites (also by playing single player and skirmish). The whole system required grinding - you could not get enough skulls to unlock all, or even majority of upgrades/doctrines. And those hide so many BASIC rts mechanics - like deploying turrets or... throwing grenades by units! Gladly they failed miserably at it. BTW speaking about game modes - Relic ditched COMPLETELY a good amount of players (especially from DoW 2 and CoH) by NEVER adding Victory Point mode. Also most of launch maps were not good for Anihilation because of heavy restricting, lane design with Power Core ar mind. Many tactics and strategies were useless - games quickly were going into blob vs blob skirmishes. No point of bulding forward bases. Especially with many army-wiping abilities of Elite units. Without MAJOR overhauls in gameplay DoW 3 did not stand a chance in a long run. Just another AT BEST mediocre game, overhyped and overpriced considering its quality and amount of content. But the one that was a part of outstanding series of games. So in the end it deserved it fate.
To me it felt the opposite. It felt like the game was designed around the campaign, and then the multiplayer was just an afterthought that they slapped together a month before release when they realized "oh yeah... this is supposed to be a multiplayer game!"
They had a philosophy making this game that every unit should have unique animations, so that those could be used to distinguish between units. That energetic bobbing around is so emblematic of what caused the game to fail.
I'm sorry but trying to compare Mass Effect Andromeda and Cyberpunk 2077, two games that were unplayable at launch because the higher ups chose to release the games before they were ready, to a game like Dawn of War 3 which was simply designed in a way that the fans didn't want is completely ludicrous. I'm honestly shocked that it was one of your key arguments as to why the game failed.
i see what you're saying but from where i'm sitting this comment literally proves my point lol - i played both at launch and imo were totally fine. yes, they had issues, but they were completely overblown and the backlash was not in line with what was wrong with them. everyone's experience is different though, and they were very possibly unplayable for some. but yeah, get where you're coming from 100% - appreciate you watching
@@Zade_95 sorry I can't agree. I had fun streaming mass effect Andromeda. But it was bland, too easy and heavily bugged. I tried to play game plus and got stuck at the beginning of the game In the transport vehicle. It was pretty hilarious. Cyberpunk was very bad and wasn't even the game we was promised. The bugs even though I didn't experience the worse like others. Still had cops spawning on top of you as soon as you do anything wrong. Dawn of War 3 wasn't broken. It just rubbed fans the wrong way. I enjoyed it from launch to when the game died and would still play to this day. I don't even like dow2 but the heros wasn't even like dow2 and unit management was enjoyable and I loved dow1. I'm not even mad about the 3 factions.
@@Zade_95 That’s true for Andromeda. But 2077 was the definition of unplayable at launch. You would not accept a restaurant selling you a burger that looks awful and wasn’t cooked completely, even if it was strictly ‘edible’. 2077 was sold on last generation consoles and those were so unplayable that both Sony and Microsoft pulled the title from their stores. That’s unheard of for a AAA title. Dawn of War 3 had launch issues, and I would even agree that the game missed the mark. It certainly didn’t meet fan expectations. But it is not a Cyberpunk 2077, or even a Mass Effect Andromeda.
I think CP2077 was fairly playable despite the bugs, but didn't Andromeda have some gamebreaking bugs, like, seriously gamebreaking, iirc CP2077 had some but they were less serious.
Mass effect Andromeda was not crushed because of unreal expectations. Between the slew of bugs, poor story, and poor new mechanics it was a half baked game thrown out and got burned for it. Also, I loved the video all the same. Keep up the amazing work.
Appreciate it! Why I do agree with the issues you mention, I do think expectations played a big part in it. I mean any game following up the ME trilogy would have an impossible challenge ahead of it haha - but that's Bioware's 'fault' for making a great series and not delivering on a new entry
@@M6nst6r6 I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree with you on the characters not being memorable. I found Andromeda's characters exceptionally bland or irritating to the point that I remember every time they annoyed me in vivid detail.
@Zippy Dastrange Except mass effect 2 was a massive improvement in literally every way over its predecessor, with 3 furthering it, and then andromeda going backasswards into a pit of trash in those same respects.
DoW 3 singlehandedly killed my desire to ever pre-order a game again. I never thought I would have my emotions affected by a video game, in such a negative way. I think you answer your own question with what is a Dawn of War game. Regardless of what it contains or portents to be, it is a Warhammer game first, and should respect the setting and the fans. DoW 3 did neither, and the 'eSports' angle only added salt to the wound.
Keep doing what you do mate. I really appreciate the effort you put into your content, including thought-provoking/controversial stuff like this. I usually try to keep this game from my mind lol
Honestly what the made the fall is the lack of particular basic features and the lack of defining features that somehow slipped through to the game, pulling basically the worst thing possible, pulling a C&C 4. While yes it is not that bad but the strange decisions compound into that impression. Missing Basic features: -Straightforward dedicated campaingns of each faction alone with any semblance of glorified tutorial missions restricted to the first 2-3 missions. -Lack of agency with the latter bits constantly spawning units despite wiping out production making it feel pointless and tedious -Lack of maps and basic game modes, there is no reason to not include an annihilation or VP game modes and unncessarily run the game's reputation into the grinder with sticking with a highly divisive game mode of Power Core. Missing Defining Features that has been a staple in previous DOW games Lack of infantry weapon upgrades: -This has been a staple not only in Dawn of war but Relic's COH games as well -Going from being able to arm the base infantry squads with flamethrowers to just an ability to do a flamepuff is a baffling step back - splitting said heavy weapons to longer ranged shoot harder guys without additional features or customizations to emphasize further is also a step back particularly with the lack of morale and suppression mechanics. Lack of Distinctive regular units/infantry: - they're basically mobs compared to your elite units compared to previous games which can do amazing things if you use them right with their customized equipment and upgrades to even the playing field Lack of morale, suppression or a cover system - not only did they somehow miss simply repeating DOW1 style cover system and calling it a day, they somehow regressed that into this weird capture point bubble garrison that is just weird to interact with and very irrelevant later on compared to both games -Morale and supression basically turns infantry combat into something highly one note as you just nick HP of each other instead of using abiltities or specialists that can snap up morale to turn the tide or supress them to get that one ability or unit to do their battle defining thing is another baffling step back as well. This also hampers how the different arms of combined arms affect each other aside from HP depletion. No sync kills: -This has been a novel feature in previous dawn of war games that was also absent in this one
The real issue at the end of it is that people were expecting a return to dawn of war, rather than new innovation which in my opinion was implemented rather poorly.
@@trompell0 Yeah they implemented half baked ideas while in all truth most dawn of war fans wanted either a return to the original dawn of war style of base building and huge army battles or an expanded system of the dawn of war 2 style of play, either way its sad to see what they did to a beloved franchise for the sake of chasing innovation at the cost of everything else.
@@HighLanderPonyYT I disagree , we had two forms of gameplay both from dow and dow 2 which proved very successful , the devs had two full successful games to pull from in terms of gameplay and what the player base wanted, to say we shouldn't expect similarities that made the previous games fun is somewhat idiotic.
I felt like the reliance on elites was a little much. The game came down to using your elits to kill their elites and every other unit was basically trash to be smashed by elites. Polar opposite of the other 2 DOW games.
I believe that a huge mistake with this tittle (not included in this video) is the game being not modding friendly, previous DoW games are kept alive for a big modding community, a good example is Unification mod for DoW1, adding factions and features not included in the OG game. Mods extend a game’s life for years.
I think something that is never really talked about, but was a huge problem was how incredibly broken the MP was. The Orks were god awful. The space marines with their staking stuns on assault marines and scout combo meant that you were always playing space marines or were losing. Its been a long time since I played but if I remember correctly jump marines has a stun on jump effect and scouts has a stun grenade ability were the cooldowns would work out that you could perma stun large groups. Usually meant the game was over so quickly you never even got to the vehicles stage of the game
Yeah, the game balance was a huge problem... but honestly, game balance has never been a strong suit for Dawn of War, or Warhammer 40k itself for that matter lol
Gotta disagree on DoW2 multi-player being bad. Indrid Casts does narrated DoW2 matches (admittedly with the Elite Mod, which focuses on balance) - but these are exceptionally entertaining and fun to play.
DoW2 is a great game when you judge it on its own merits. Its a disappointing game when you look at it through the lens of it being a sequel to Dawn of War 1. It went from a real RTS with base building to a tactical battler with a hero and 5-6 unit squads at most.
If they make a Dawn of War IV a new and improved Dark Crusade would be nice. Take the elite concept and make then comanders of separate army's under one banner. Still has them be impactful but allows you to still have massive battles with normal units. This also could come back to the gear you gave comanders in dark crusade. Have some missions be like DOW2 were your tasked with a certain objective kind of like spec ops missions were your allowed to weaken a territory before the main force comes rolling in. Just some ideas
if it can't be churned into a live service riddled with exclusive skins and ingame currency these companies are unlikely to give that idea even a glance
Why did Relic decide to ruin the artstyle? Easy answer. Esports. That is the beginning and end of this game, they didn't care about the fans, they didn't care about the lore, they didn't care about the story, the atmosphere, the voice actors or anything else, other than making an esports hit. And why did they want that? Money. Because lots of money isn't enough, it has to be ALL THE ESPORTS MONEY. The fans told them that neither esports players or the fans would be interested in this very early on, but they ploughed on. No doubt some slimy, out of touch, non-fan or non-gamer executive producer just saw this game as a tick list for things to make recurrent income as opposed to a captivating 40k game, and was just like "trust me brah the shareholders are gonna love this". Also, basically every 'redeeming quality' you mention, is still a negative for the most part. I don't personally care about how the elites play, because I don't want elites, at all, full stop. The game balance is fucking atrocious. You allude to liking some of the MOBA elements, and keep trying to downplay its similarity to a MOBA, but to the rest of us, we don't like MOBAs, and this has enough elements from a thing we don't like to ruin what we did like before. Imagine paying a premium for your favourite dish. Then imagine that dish being served to you covered with a sauce made of rancid human shit. But the sauce isn't *pure* shit, just mostly shit. Are you still going to eat it, smile and pay up? Yeah, didn't think so lol. This game still makes me fucking angry. I played the beta for the game, and that was enough. the actual game made me more angry, not less. But I wasn't going to pay money for it, reviews and the beta showed me everything I needed to see. Not angry at you bro, love your content! Edit: Seeing the marketing clips you put in here really contextualises everything. These people don't really understand 40k beyond a very, very thin surface level, throwing out buzzwords as if they can distract us from their clear lack of comprehension... (Edited for punctuation and expansion)
There's a very weird notion with RTS developers that some day someone's gonna come up with a game that grabs all the MOBA players back, as if MOBA players and RTS players ever had a significant overlap to begin with.
Not ESPORTS at all, if so Relic would AT LEAST have put an observer mode, they simply released it as is to clean the pipeline for AoE4, they clearly didn't gave a fuck.
Thinking of the demon bosses and talk of lore accuracy, too-- Was reading a Ghazghkull book and in that same book when he was barely leaving his first planet, he 1v1'ed a Khorne greater demon with a bunch of orks cheering them on, whilst 'dying' to 1 tank shell. Greater demons don't seem like very intimidating end bosses anymore
In the lore, how resilient even quote powerful daemons are depends on the availability of warp energy. Angron had to call off a campaign during his invasion of Armageddon due to a warp storm calming down and his daemons needing more warp energy.
@@BrianFlyingPenguin In this book they were coming straight from an open rift and managed to open it wider to let itself through, so I would assume it was pretty well fed on warp energy. I find it entertaining, though.. Ghazghkull got depressed at not getting to fight a primarch, and when he's booted from Armageddon, in comes Angron
@@AnthroTsuneon Well... Yeah, that sounds like bullshit. I mean, it could be that all the energy was going into keeping the portal open, but that's probably wishful thinking from me.
is it just me or does the art style fit PERFECT with eldar, but nothing else? feel like Eldar always was this pure clean and almost sterile faction, where the only "dirt" you will see on them is the blood of their enemies. but the art style don't fit for anything else really
That was my thought when he zoomed in on a very accurate rendering taken from the Striking Scorpion marketing material from GW. They literally look exactly like the minis do on their online store.
I have unfortunately not played any of the Dawn of War games but I've had friends who did and I was able to gather a second-hand experience for each game and each expansion. However, the video has been informative and she some light over aspects that neither me nor my friends have considered. Good stuff, big big like!
I did played the game, but gave up after the 4th mission. My biggest problem with DoW III is that it wasn't a sequel to DoW I Dark Crusade. The base game was amazing, it just needed improvement, like battles with more than 2 factions. Relic changed way too many gameplay mechanics and removed squad customization options, and all of that in a very linear campaign. Changing faction each mission is the worst part for me, because I prefer to play a very long campaign with a single faction, and hate being forced to play with a faction I don't like. And I had a problem with the factions, because while I like Space Marines, I hate Eldars and Orks. I wish the Necrons or T'au came back, they don't have as much spotlight. The very basic cutscenes, lack of French dub and obvious focus on esport rather than PvE made me realize that the game was just a cheap cash grab by Sega who didn't care about the license, and Relic who didn't know if they wanted to do more DoW I or more DoW II.
Not having played it, I have no say whether or not the game is bad. Sadly however that wouldn't matter. It could've been the best, most highly rated RTS game in history, but the unit animations would still kill it for me. The way my brain works (and I have no idea why), if I notice one detail where something feels off, the effort needed to ignore it will leave me exhausted. And knowing that beforehand it's just not worth it for me.
Watching a Terminator leap, Is like watching a Jedi use a blasters only. It hurts the mind thinking about it. Lore matters. The next crew needs to respect the lore.
Eh, Gabriel was like at least 75% machine by then, remember how Kyras chopped him up at the end of Retribution? It's at least plausible. Honestly, I think the leap issue was way overblown and turned into a meme. And would have been a non issue if all the other problems weren't also there.
So, I'll come and say this. During EGX Birmingham, I was one of the people who got to play the Demo for Dawn of War 3. During this Demo, me and my friends got to play the game, specifically on the Mission exact mission where the game gets good, the Ice fields as the Blood Ravens. In this Mission, it was Saturated as hell, you couldnt really enjoy the grim darkness with all the Flashy effects, and there were plenty of bugs that had happened in the session. After we had our Mission time up (you only got like 40mins Max), We pointed out to the Staff that there were issues and how to Resolve them (We were Games Design Students), to this extent, the Staff got VERY Defensive about the game and tried to divert the conversation away from any Problems, we were being Polite and reassuring that we were gonna get the game anyway, but they were still really worried. Fast Track to Launch, and me and my Friends are excited, we finally get to play, but my friends were skeptical, so I decided I would buy it, and Stream it for us as I am the main RTS Player in our Group, and we kept finding more and more things Wrong with the game, it just wouldnt stop, We are Very big lore nerds regarding 40k, and alot of things were just so ridiculous in the animations and aesthetic of the game compared to what we got, that we couldnt shake this, it was really immersion breaking for us. Within a Week, we had all Decided, that we would never play Dawn of War 3 again, it had lost our Respect and was a Betrayal of the Standard that Relic had with their Previous games. This really saddened us, as we wanted to have Both DOW1-2 combined, to have this Tactical gameplay where troops mattered while making Bases, (Heck, I play Techmarine in DOW2 just to make Bases). all in all, Relic had earned the Ire of the community, they couldnt even get Gabriel Angelos to be Canonically Correct either!! (For those that Completed DOW2, Gabriels Left eye is the Cybernetic Eye, in DOW3, they made his Right eye have no Cybernetics instead) I was also a Blood Raven player when i first started Warhammer, so you can Imagine my Disappointment when they couldnt even get my damn Chapter Master correct (now I play Custodes and Black Templars). Hope you all have a Nice day, I hope people enjoy DOW3, but I just Cannot Forgive it.
So this might be just subjectivity at play, but I don't really see why you like the Elites. I find them a lot more boring than the skirmish heroes in Dawn of War 2. In Dawn of War 2, you only had the choice of 3 heroes, and each hand their own set of doctrine type abilities tied to that specific hero, so there was less variety than in 3 in that sense. However, the heroes in DoW2 had wargear, and so even though it was the same hero, you could go with a wide variety of builds throughout your different games. Take my favorite hero, the Warp Spider Exarch, for example. You could build him with support abilities like group teleport and shimmer orbs, or you could turn him into an assassin with the improved teleport and the power blades. Plus, most wargear had to be unlocked by teching up, so you still have that aspect of early investment vs. late game power. By contrast, Elites are always identical, minus the choice between one of two doctrines, one of which will become a regular doctrine at some level anyway, and they come at no cost to your army, so unlike DoW2, where heroe wargear came at the cost of units and upgrades, and a hero going down required either map control or a lot of resources to revive, Elites are just powerhouses that come at no cost to your army. Plus, like you said, they're really the only units who have any really interesting combat mechanics, with your mainline units clearly being made as essentially mobs for Elites to mash up, but it doesn't really feel earned unlike previous games, where heroes and super units were actually expensive. To me, Dawn of War 3 really is the worst of the series, and I have played it too. Still, I know a lot of people did like this game, mostly people who didn't really play the first two, and if you like it, more power to you, but I really do think it's awful.
The thing that infuriates me about DoW3 was that from a game design standpoint, looking purely at game mechanics, it's actually a pretty solid game. A hero-centric RTS with troops and base building as support, WarCraft III did that first, and people loved it. I really do mean it when I say that had this gameplay style be spun off into its own separate franchise instead of sticking the Dawn of War label, it could have been successful on its own. I know creating a new IP has its risks, but it's like in baseball, you never know whether it will be a strike, ball, or a hit (home run even) until you actually pitch the ball. If it was up to me, I would have returned to DoW1 and use that as the foundation for DoW3. I know DoW2 has its fans, but honestly, it's less of an RTS and more of a tactics game, which is another game that could have been successful being spun off as its own franchise. In a nutshell, DoW3 just feels like a waste: the potential is there, but cause of various reasons, it failed.
The problem is not that they tried something new with the game. The problem is that they run after a mainstream trend instead of making it in their own way.
@@Zade_95 It happens a lot sadly. Everytime a franchise gets successful they chase the mainstream. Like with battle royale or the open world gimmick. Suddenly the game needs it even so nobody in the fan community asked for it. That destroyed so many games.
What baffled me in DoW3 was all of the hero units were spot on. They felt exactly like what I'd come to expect from the series in every way. The knight paladin was by far my favorite in this regard, so much flavor and personality. Then you stand him next to a heavy bolter squad that looks like it had maybe 3 frames of animation in total.
Unfortunatly, the objective quality of the game is irrelevant when it's not the thing you wanted. You ask for an apple. You're promised an apple. And then you got a banana. No matter how good the banana is, it's not an apple. It's not what you wanted. So, while I don't think I can say what "Dawn of War" is, it's safe to say it's not DoW3.
The thing is that merge of squad based and larger army micro had been done in COH2. There were plenty of missions where you’d control a few squads DOW2 style in the same game as base building and managing big armies Thing is they were separate and there wasn’t really any Heroes, just normal units with unique abilities and that helped dodge one of the key issues where elites are very strong and normal units are just chaff around them because they wanted it to be a MOBA. The attempt to merge the Dow1 and 2 combats together was a mistake in the same way putting your cake and fresh fish together is a mistake. Both are good, both are enjoyed but for different reasons. I can speculate that the change from DOW1 to DOW2 and the success there gave them confidence to change up the gameplay again. I think the bad presentation is one of the biggest reasons for DOW3’s failure. When you have a track record of perfectly capturing the 40k universe, make a trailer that perfectly captures the 40k universe and a huge fanbase that buys your game because of its representation of the 40k universe failing to deliver because you want to make it look more like League of Legends basically taints everything in original sin and its not something anyone would have predicted Relic to balls up 40k fans kept Eternal Crusade alive for far longer than it deserved just because it did, for all its faults, look and feel like 40k and they wanted to keep the game going so it could get more content. Those two together, it not playing like any other DOW game and not making it look like anything from the 40k universe makes it feel off and plasticky, like a knockoff superhero toy thats clearly aping a popular hero but is distinct enough to dodge a lawsuit. Not engaging with community criticism further lowers people’s willingness to be charitable and canning the game 10 months in after harvesting sky high preorders from your intense marketing campaign will forever have you remembered as the bad guys IMO DOW3 deserves the stick it gets, not for the game’s objective hideousness, but for how it was managed and the final insult of not being willing to actually try and fix it. Its another thing to show that going against your loyal customer base to chase a mystical “wider appeal” is like gouging your eyes out so you can have a cool guide dog
After watching this video I thought to myself I'll give DOW3 a chance after ignoring it at launch. I could not believe that not only had I played they game but had also completed it. Then the waves of memories flooded back and the reminder of so many tedious missions to over. In short I decided not to install the game
I think the best key point you raised was that the dawn of war series always tried to adapt and try something different. Its just a shame dawn of war 3 didn't market itself like that.
Yeah, it's funny when you think that no two dawn of war games have actually really been that similar - even within it's expansions. DC and SS (or DOW2 and CR) are probably the most like one another, but (at least in the campaign sense), nearly every release tried something new. Agree though, DOW3 didn't market itself in the right way and probably took it in the wrong direction, even it was going to be different from DOW1/2
Bring back the Necrons! What they could have done is build a whole game around the Necrons conquering all! Except our fav reviewer, Zade! They could have feature more variety in races. With a universe of possibilities, they could introduce more new races with each expansion.
you made me play it during christmas and it is better and worse than i've expected at the same time i just want to go back in time to the cinematic trailer release and be hyped once again
Omg thank you for the world in conflict mention, still one of my favorite games and i still watch its cinematics from time to time cause i still dream of a a sequel that will never come 😄
What made Dawn of War interesting as an RTS was not the 40k coat of paint, It was that It had more factions than any other before or ever since. 5 playable races, then 7, then 9, all asymetrical. You just take CoH gameplay and balance 5 or 6 factions for It (easier said than done) then add more. Total War Warhammer did It
@@gerardotejada2531 mmm nope is not the factions, dow1 had 4, is the unique game play, sync kills, voice acting and unique game play what makes dow1 the best Dow and why dow3 is not considered a dow game
Thank you for reminding me of Impossible creatures! I've had fond memories of that game knocking around in my head for years but I'd forgotten that name and consequently wasn't sure where to begin when searching for it.
Crashing a Battle Barge into a planet seems incredibly out of character for the Blood Ravens and in general, a Battle Barge without bombardment cannons?
LOL dude. The intro. I think I just died. There are many great points here, and things we all hope Relic has learned from. However, I will definitely tip my hat to the animations team. The animations and model designs felt very fluid and even gorgeous at times. Props to them; unfortunately, so much else is wrong with the game. It would be cool to see King Art carve out a Dawn of War game, however I don't know all of the intricacies of the Dawn of War IP stuff. That would have to be willingly passed off. The campaign was actually good in that game, but the multiplayer was too symmetrical. With the 40K factions, that should be easily fixable to their inherent asymmetry. Whether they took it DoW1 style or DoW2 wouldn't matter to me, but a pick a lane. I have a feeling they would go with DoW2 style based on them making a game similar to CoH.
It's completely insincere to say that C&C4 is terrible, yet DoW3 is "okay", there is no mention of the entire "Skulls" in-game currency that you had to grind controvery here, which was so controversial that it was removed day one due to the sheer backlash, I had expected a more in-depth review with better research than just sharing an experience based on the state of the game 5 years later when the dust has long settled down, and calling out people for not liking it. No mention of the developmental history of DoW3, the original plans for DoW3 under THQ being an MMO RTS like the failed CoHO as it made headlines back in 2011, no mention of E3 2016 backlash, no mention of now defunct DoW3 forums controversy with trigger happy moderators banning anyone slighly criticising the game here and there... Perhaps something that was universally disliked had a reason for being universally disliked as even the DoW3 forums went defunct a year later, and believe me that the moderators that were hired by Relic on both DoW3 and Steam forums made the situation even worse regarding the communication, thus the death of the playerbase in a month. I think that the companies should avoid hiring boneless slimy shills for marketing and moderation, it will have adverse effects otherwise than expected.
yup yup and yup. I cant stand this snobbish gaslighting shit I see alot of dow3 defenders attempt with making out the "haters" just cant think objectively elitist fart sniffing thing. It was just a terrible game simple as. Ya player base does not go from over 25k to 2k in just over a month if the game was Objectively good in any dam way.
When he start to praise the model animation i just went meh , there is no weight , too goofy and Gabriel doing flip in his terminator armor . Even if DoW franchise always try new things , it still have to follow a few set of rule that define the Warhammer 40k settings .
@@kampfer91 Thats it. Even thou the universe is not "real" you have to make it at least follow the laws set. I could not get over the gaslighting they were trying to pull when fans called terminator flips out. Saying its not real world calm down, 40k is super over the top anyway toxic fans blah blah blah.
Thank you for leaving the comment I would've wanted to leave if this terrible video didn't give me an actual IRL headache. I can't believe I used to watch this stooge. I'm glad I unsubbed at some point in the past and now I'm asking youtube never to show me his videos again
I think the community unified in expressing their displeasure and complaints is a great thing. Better that this game is killed off and make the developer and publisher bleed money.
I think part of the reason why the campaign's storyline stumbled was because it had you constantly shift from one race's story to the next. You got a mission with the Space Marines, then suddenly had to swap over to the Orks. And I think that made the game suffer, because if you want to get your players to master each race's skills and abilities while constantly cycling between each one, they have to play similarly or else the player is just going to get lost. That lack of diversity just makes each faction feel kinda same-y but with a different coat of paint.
Regarding my opinion of DoW3, I remember getting in on the beta, and my enthusiasm evaporating slowly from the point of being ready to buy off of the trailer alone to never purchasing the game over the course of hour after hour throughout the weekend. It was awful, and the memory still makes me sad to this day.
Great Video! I really didnt mind DoW3 presentation. The lack of upgradable/customizable units and spawning enemies killed it for me. I dont really play RTS multiplayer. Wasnt fun in skirmish either though.
"Even if you hate the game, you've got to respect that." No, I don't, because a video game sequel should be more of the same but improved. Relic changing the formula with each game is not something that should be praised.
My issue always was that it failed to be either Dow 1 or 2, it fell flat on its promises and left me disinterested in continuing the game. 2 was a massive puzzle with it's unit restrictions, 1 was great. 3 just promised one thing and have another and did it rather weakly. It is the CNC generals of dawn of war, sending the series back to it's undo slumber waiting for a revival.
Yooo Poncha feature! you should keep up the dope features! Been following your channel for a while now- so glad that someone decided to make an RTS retrospective type channel (hopefully with all the new rts coming out it'll be more reviews than retrospectives though ;) )
@Zade_95, as a DOW3 dev I love that you gave the game a fair shake. It definitely deserves a lot of the criticisms it received but I do think it had a few redeeming aspects. You were pretty spot on with most of your insights regarding the development of the game. Hit me up and maybe I could fill in some if the blanks for you. It was one of those games that I never get tired of talking about. Cheers
Thank you! I did what I could and I always try to approach games without preexisting bias. I might take you up on that actually, do you have a twitter/discord? Feel free to email me or dm on Twitter if you don't want to put those details here
DoW 1 was a blast. I couldn't believe how great it was at the time. DoW2, I bought it blindly thinking i was getting the same with new factions and better graphics. Wrong! I felt betrayed but I gave it a try and it grew on me. I think now it's a cool game. I come back to it once every two years. DoW3, I tried for 8 hours i guess and I never ever had the will to come back again. DoW2 was ok really, but obviously the course of action should have been to come back to the origins and update it. Relic could be BIG by now if this simple decision was made.
Played this on a pirated copy my friend gave me when it came out. No idea what Warhammer was, just that it was an RTS. Really enjoyed it but forgot the name for years. Little did I know this was the best way to play the game lol
It wasn't that bad. But it tried to do three things and did them all poorly. You had mediocre base building. You had mediocre tactics. And according to my MOBA loving friends the MOBA bits are just bad. Troops didn't really do much but tie up enemies until the hero unit could get around to killing them. The maps didn't feel like RTS maps. There were often hallways connecting arenas and boss fights. I played through the first 8 missions and just stopped.
@@francopereyra6659 No, in DOW2 a hero can't solo 2 units at lv1, in DOW3 they could wipe them in less than 10 seconds. Losing them mattered (they costed ressources to call back unlike the 3rd), you had to use ressources to upgrade them.
@@etarckneus9702 An space marine commander could deal with almost every infantry squad in the early game (warboss and hive tyrant were even better) Loosing an elite in DOW 3 matter too, they costed quite a handful of resurces. And yes, you had to use resources to upgrade them, which was more like buying items in a moba game dont you think? By the late game you could have an space marine commander in terminator Armour killing tanks left and right with the power claws
@@francopereyra6659 In the early game some hero could win against 1 unit, not 2. Compare that to elite who could wipe 2 units effortlessly. Elite didn't cost ressource after the first time, you only had to wait for the couldown. In DoW2 it costed you requisition to call a hero back. Elite also only used a ressource unique to them, you didn't have to make a choice to buy a unit and an elite, their ressource cost never overlap. "And yes, you had to use resources to upgrade them, which was more like buying items in a moba game dont you think?" Dow1 had upgrade for units and heroes, DoW2 did too, they didn't just change stat but the purpose of the unit/hero (flammer, plasma and missile launcher and different strength and weakness) and sometimes new abilities, that's not something MOBA does. "By the late game you could have an space marine commander in terminator Armour killing tanks left and right with the power claws" And you had to have invested ressources that could have been invested in other units (something you cannot do in DoW3 because no ressource overlap), and loosing that hero would cost you ressources to bring back, that you could have invested in other units (something that never happened in DoW3 because no ressource overlap and the elite was free after the first time).
Coming to this a little late, but I think I can explain the art direction at least. That bright shining colour saturated art style does make sense, if you know a little bit about the history of the 40k tabletop games. See, the bright clean colour-saturated art style they went for in the game is in fact extremely accurate to Warhammer 40,000.... in 6th edition. At the time this game was made in the mid-to-late 2010s, the bright stylised clean colour-saturated style was exactly the same as how the Games Workshop miniatures studio was painting their models, which were used in all the promotional photos for the tabletop game and thus set the visual tone for 40k in 2012-2017. Incidentally, this style is still used today, and the 40k models painted in the official GW Studio paint schemes all look, well, just like the units in Dawn of War 3 do. At the same time, it's worth noting that Games Workshop is notoriously iron-fisted with their IP. This is especially true with video games, where Games Workshop tends to breathe down the game developers' necks a lot in order to get things looking as close to the currently supported tabletop game as possible. Personnel at Tindalos Interactive have said as much in in interviews regarding their own 40k games. I would not be surprised in the slightest if Games Workshop had pressured Relic into making the game's visuals match the official studio paint schemes as closely as physically possible. The trouble with this, of course, is that there are now - as of this comment - 10 different 40k tabletop games (13-14 if you count the Horus Heresy ones, and pushing 20-25 if you count the spinoff tabletop games on top of that) most of which have wildly differing visual styles from each other. A lot of Dawn of War fans, and indeed a lot of older 40k fans, were introduced to the IP through Warhammer 40,000 3rd and 4th edition, which is where much of the darker grittier visual style comes from and in the case of 4th edition in particular is the 40k that was captured by the original Dawn of War. For people used to that version of 40k, the brighter cleaner more colour saturated visuals of 6th edition onwards are a very jarring change, both in the tie-in video games and in the tabletop studio models. This, I suspect, is where a lot of the issues with Dawn of War 3's visuals stem from.
There were many, many, problems with DoW3. If you're looking at just the frontend, they added the skulls currency, the factions didn't feel as fleshed out, the campaign was mostly unimaginative. If you're looking at gameplay: Audio - doesn't feel punchy and visceral, the camera likely was part of the issue here with it being further set back to feature some of the larger units Cover System - Adding the capture zone style bunkers rather that environment cover as seen in DoW1, DoW2, COH1&2. Utilized deformed terrain based on the choices a player makes while in gameplay. This made the game actually feel older than the named titles which all utilized that style cover system which made the gameplay more engaging. Instead this felt like Starcraft or Command & Conquer Visuals - Color selection and Saturation all felt like they were going for a more arcadey design that'd be appeal again to the Starcraft audience. Admittedly the whole thing was disappointing and I raised many of those complaints when they showcased the gameplay at PAX and the team that was there was not receptive to any feedback or commentary that was not positive.
Yeah the limited number of factions really turned me off the game. I didn't bother with it because of how few it had. Battlefield Gothic 2 was kinda the same as it was disappointing on how limited the number of campaigns were but at least they had all the races in multiplayer so can still take them out into battle. Because of the I got BFG2 where as I passed on DOW3. Honestly I don't know why more games can't do a DOW: Dark Crusade style mode where it's all factions on a strategic map and the typical RTS battle for the conquest of each region. It makes it so you don't need some indepth campaign for every faction but still let players play them out in some way. I'm fine admiting I'm one of those who has not played DOW3. As for you question when have you played a game you thought would be bad but turned out you were wrong... Never. That said it's cause I know my taste, I've played games I've heard other people say were bad but I liked however I went into them expecting them to be good because they had something that interested me. Over the years I've been burned by a lot of hyped games and know what red flags to look for as a lot of games have giant red flags that not everything is ship shape before release, as well as what type of experience the game is going to be. The limited Factions is what kept me away and why I don't plan on giving it a chance. I'm not a huge fan of SM, Orcz, and Elder. If I had to pick 3 races I would have preferred to see Tau, Necron, and Nids would be my picks. SM are over done, Elder are just snobby elves, and Orcz though do have an amusing sense of humor so I do like them thematic wise but not a fan of their play style. I found this review rather informative however even though you say give it a try I'm even more turned off the game due to many of the negatives you pointed out. I don't like RTS that just keep spawning in stuff instead of having an actual enemy to tangible base your strategy around as any Pro RTS player will tell you, scout early and often because information is the greatest weapon. However if the enemy is just gonna spawn in stuff you either need to have played the mission before and figured out the script spawn rates or worst yet just expect anything if it's a random spawn. I also HATE campaigns that jump you back and forth between factions. I wanna play all the way through one factions story then go see the other faction's story campaign, not whip lash back and forth between them. Starcraft did this well, as each campaign was a different point in the overall story but they were still each self contained.
No not really, without the aid of Jump Packs they can jump a little more than the average human but not much higher, they can fall from extremely high heights without taking damage, which might give the illusion that they jumped a far distance but overall Space Marines need Jump Packs
The advantage and disadvantage of retrospectives is that issues are (hopefully) fixed, such as the inane skull system that was present on launch and now, thankfully removed. As such, on launch some elites were completely locked behind skulls (earned by multiplayer or campaign) and then on top of this some elite doctrines were locked until you had got enough XP for that elite which was based on damage caused - this could be as significant as you are fighting an eldar who has all their passives and can relocate their base at Tier 1, whereas you, the new player have to get to Tier 3. You can unlock the units by playing the campaign and then the optimum strategy was to make a farming map where your unit attacked a constantly repaired building for an hour or so - super fun for new player. Frankly elites themselves are conceptually tricky as you really just want the early game elites as RTS tends to be won early. The campaign is a mostly beat-for-beat rehash of DoW, but it was just made with a lack of care, exemplified by the snowy eldar mission shown in the video. Clearly all the webways are on timers which check if they are dead and if so respawn, leading to the same building being replaced a dozen times on the same spot with no builder required as it just spawns in. This sucks when you have units being attacked that should not be from a building that could not exist - I suspect this is the same thing as you mentioned with squads just appearing, which is fine if tied to a building or control point or something. The whole thing is also just very stop/start owing to slow regeneration rates and units having very few hitpoints if you are not a named character. The Lack of 3D camera and weapons being timed powers were indicative of a backwards step from earlier titles, but then the structure of timed powers, one single moba map type and abilities that are visually clear but not very 40k, such as the whirlwind arm did just make you think they were going for esports money. It's key that DoW keeps changing and if this was called anything else then it may have been fine, but this felt like Relic making a game they wanted for an audience they wanted, but one which did not necessarily exist. It's not the worst RTS ever, but it's far below what anyone expected from Relic and Dawn of War at the time. For my money, DoW 4 should take the base building of DoW1, but the engine improvements of DoW2 - namely destructible buildings, directional damage and fixed weapon angles so that eldar can be sneaky and do positional damage whilst and chaos can just run through walls. Hero customisation would be nice in terms of wargear. Then, frankly any plot that isn't 'Marines fight Orks, but oh no, it's really the Eldar and here come chaos' will be fine. Heck let's push the boat out and be an inquisitor or chaos warband with bickering.
There is a fine line between playerbase toxicity and constructive criticism on a massive scale. Players did not kill the game, bad core choices did (for me it was game design, for many - aesthetics). Pretending the feedback is great, sugarcoating, not changing the course of a ship moving towards an obvious storm did. Relic could've (must have if you ask me) stopped "the unstoppable snowball of criticism" like a mature game studio, listened and changed the game. They removed the skull currency, they hastily added annihilation mode which clearly shows they realized that ignoring the criticisms is not gonna play itself out. And they should've continued fixing the the game. They should've released the necrons. They should've acted like game development veterans who they are. Instead they chickened out, clearly demonstrating that they are not about making a great game for the audience, but about making a profitable product. Many hyped games get review-bombed these days. Some recover, some go down. Elden Ring could recover to become GOTY, so did No-Man's Sky to name a few. DoW3 got abandoned. Relic isn't at bad place like you described. It has a successful Age of Empires 4 under the belt and it's safe from being closed even if CoH3 will not be successful unless they do something really stupid. Now to the main dish. Saying that DoW3 has better multiplayer than DoW2 in a "objective" analysis... uhhm? I will not go into mechanical details why it's not true, the objective numbers of active player base speak for themselves. There's more. In DoW2 retrospectives your main takeaway on multiplayer was "I'm bad at it and it's not for me" and you really didn't cover it despite people commenting about how important multiplayer is to that particular game. Now you're putting that half-baked failure of an experiment that DoW3 multiplayer is above the time-proven DoW2. Did you give a proper chance to both multiplayers to make such comparisons? With DoW2's Elite mod it's alive as ever and in this very video you pointed at the fact that DoW3's multiplayer is dead... Community-supported DoW2 is worse than deserted DoW3... what? Sorry, but you are biased and if you did try to give DoW2 multiplayer a proper chance, you'd see how much it is superior to DoW3. I probably sound overly harsh (which I'm really not - imagine Morgan Freeman's voice reading what I wrote), but I hope you are able to see the points past the likely discomfort. You've read this and others' criticisms. You can take them as Hello Games (when facing the backlash on release of No-Man's Sky) or you can take it as Relic (when facing the criticism on release of DoW3). Choice is yours. Regardless, thank you for this vid. I actually agree on many of your points and appreciate the efforts.
They could not do anything to remove cartoonish style from the game. Which was main problem, so they desided to abandon it. And i think you cant do anything, if main focus and core failed.
"proper base building" come on now dude its piss puddle shallow at best. Why am i having to build a building to make scouts ? Thats basic starting unit from the HQ or should be. Or having to be another building to get dev teams and another one to have ASM's ? lol
I played it. Its an average RTS, but utterly fails against the legacy of Dawn of War 1 and 2. Like the Star Wars sequels and Andromeda, the previous parts of the franchise were just too good to have a '"mediocre" entry. I played the campaign, and regretted the pre-order. It was worth half of what I paid. Cyberpunk is I think in a better category, though far from perfect. If you stand on the shoulders of giants, "just barely okey" is not the quality your fans expect from you. If this was Battlesector or Armageddon or Gladius, it would have been okey. They tried new things but failed with it. Dow 2 succeeded, 3 failed. The problem is not that it was different, but that it was a missed hit. I really liked the Ork's goofy animations, they worked for orks, but only the orks. If this game was orks vs orks, like Dakka Squadron or Blood and Teef, than okey. But its not. Its not a great strategy game, not a great tactical game, and I assume not a great moba. It is now nothing more than wasted potential and sadness. It has multilaser lascannons, shiny rainbows, and gaudy colour patterns like Fortnight or Overwatch, which are not suited for Warhammer 40k nor Dawn of War 1 or 2 in general, bar maybe an ork or eldar harlequins themed game.
The Relic of DoW3 is a completely different company from the Relic that made DoW1/2 and Company of Heroes. Very few (if any) of the older devs were involved in its production, so I don't see any point in bringing the company's name up when comparing with older games. You failed to mention the currency grind (skulls) the original game shipped with. People who had played the game longer had objective advantages over people who were just starting out. Understandable backlash against that system and they nuked it so even the devs agreed it was bullshit. There was lots of forum drama with silencing criticism, so the community lost the good faith even before the game launched. It's simply a boring mediocre game. There's no memorable story, gameplay is uninspired, visuals are barely an upgrade over DoW2 even let alone other games from 2017. It's so generic that you can't even create memes out of it.
It crushed me when the reviews started coming in, ending it's future before it began. I really enjoyed the game, I didn't like the bubble cover system though,. I personally didn't even notice or think about space marines flipping in terminator armour. And didn't see the claims of it being a mova as being very accurate. most rts have lanes or choke points etc. Anyway, my five cents... Good video! Ever hopeful of a revival, although, my trust has gone now with relic, when in my eyes, they simply buckled under pressure and gave up. (yes, I am sure there are reasons, but it 'could have' been saved.).
I really can't understand how you rated DoW2 as worse then DoW3. Blows my mind. Loved DoW1 when it released, but certain things I felt were really lacking in it, terrain / cover system / buildings, if it had a coversystem like in DoW2 for DoW1, it'd been amazing. DoW2 had a little worse multiplayer battle imo then DoW1, but not by much, they were fun. BUT DoW2 campaign is probobly the best strategy game campaign I'v ever played, it really brought me straight into the setting, I WAS THERE in the 40k universe, hard to explain. I feel DoW3 messed up on soo many aspects, half of the things they messed up you gave them praise for, so don't really understand that either I suppose, but everyone has their own opinion ofc. DoW3, Graphics made me puke, Units felt worthless, space marines were basically cannonfodder in trenches of WW1, the graphical effects were TOO MUCH, felt like watching a lightshow and you could almost not tell what was going on, there was almost no strategy mid combat like flanking for example, story felt bad compared to DoW1&2 it was lazy, Hated the Elite system, they felt TOO powerful compared to other units and like they were something ELSE, they were not normal units. I loved that they brought inspiration from COH1-2 to DoW2, but DoW2 would have been better if it was just a bit more scaled up and had base building, like if squads went from 3 space marines to 6 or maybe even 10 like in DoW1, but if so make them have very FEW squads and making them feel like they MATTER! You should want to keep them alive, retreat and heal up, reinforce.. and like you said, where did the moral mechanic go. I had dreams of this becomming the best game ever when they first said it'd take inspiration from DoW1&2! thinking it'd be a great mix! Take DoW2 combat mechanics, Cover System, Moral System (basically CoH style) but upscaling it a little bit closer to DoW1 unit sizes and base building and bigger maps. Also, complete change of the resource points fighting for the worse, every fight was WAY to bunched up, DOW 1 & 2 often had you spread out over the battlefield, defending different points with a few select units and making sure you had the right ones at the right places! DoW3 most of the time just have you have 1 massive battle with everything, very boring. And back to the graphics WHERE IS THE GRIMDARK? lol it's more cartoony styled proportions and colorful then childrens morning cartoons.
@@AztecUnshaven What? well don't call it moral them, but supression / moral, it made units become less and less effective untill basically unusuable and you had to order retreat. Same mechanic as in COH1-2-3. Overall it felt like an improvement over DOW1 morale system.
I was critical at first, but I really enjoyed the multiplayer of DoW 3. Almost as much as 2 when I got used to it. Personally, I like RTS games where the “time to kill” TTK is low if you have the right counter, as it makes your units feel powerful in a visceral way. Never got the same level of excitement out of Starcraft, personally.
My biggest issue with DoW3 was that Relic spat the dummy and took its ball home. Something we almost saw a repeat of with Age of Empires 4. As for the question around the presentation - as for animations, NFI... but the high saturation and clean look - they said in an interview when showcasing the demo mission at a convention (its the one where Gabriel is on Acharon being reinforced by Salaria) that they took inspiration from the Warhammer 40k tabletop armies, the bright colours and paint jobs, particularly all the models loaned to them by GW painted by the 'Eavy Metal crew, which are all showcase/display mini's with bright and clean colours.
What happened is very simple. We wanted more and better. They gave us less and "focused on other things we'll hope you like". For example, the Space Marines were lauded for being jack-of-all-trades units that could fit any situation. Relic has been stripping that away game after game. Dawn of war had Marines that could take up a plasma, a flamer, a missile launcher, or a heavy bolter. You could mix and match whatever combo you want and up to 4 members of your squad could take a special weapon. Same with scouts that could be kitted out with plasma guns, flamers, and snipers. DoW 2 split the Marines and brought in devastators. It's lore-appropriate, so I'll take it. But only one special weapon per group. Bonus though is that devastators get las-cannons. Scouts lost flamers and plasma guns, but got shotguns and kept snipers. DoW 3 took more. Only the kill team got missile launchers. That effectively took the jack of all trades utility of the tactical marine away because they would struggle against armor. And if my memory serves, you couldn't change weapons once you bought it. Scouts were now split into Scouts and sniper Scouts. An upgrade was taken away to basically pad out the space marine roster. And it happened a few more times. Devastators and lascannon devastators. Tac Marines and the kill team (missile launchers) There are a ton of Astartes that could have been used to fill the roster. Storm Shield ground assault Marines, centurions... hell, you could have given them the plasma cannon that was taken away. They took away from the base to make the elites feel more special. The Elites made up for deficits they created. That's not good design in my eyes.
Going to post a separate comment for what I would want from DOW4, mainly because this pleases the omnissiah's algorithm, secondly so people can upvote if they agree specifically, thirdly because my other comment is pretty bloated now. DOW4 is easy. All it had to be, was company of heroes 2, in 40k. That's it. CoH2 is already a mixture of elements from DoW1 and 2, but the best bits, rather than the worst bits. Large armies where every unit still has value and can be played well beyond its power level by a skilled player, grounded artstyle that respects the source material, fantastic animations, loads of content, mod support, cover system with well-designed maps that utilise it, weather conditions that affect gameplay, no heroes, no elites, no bullshit. Everything plays as it should and as you would expect. Literally everything in CoH2 would have translated well to DoW3, and that was all they had to do, and that is still the game that me and my friends want. And yet we're still stuck playing CoH2 because it is better than both DoWs despite the fact that we'd rather be playing with 40k units.
Saw the video now and it always glad to see Zade being a voice for good for rts, without the usual toxic approach a lot of people that enjoy the games have and ultimatly does more harm than good, I pre order Dow3 at the time because I had so much fun during the beta playing multiplayer, the battles were incredible fun, but remember feeling disappointed very fast when teh game actually released with the lack of modes. The hype was mismanaged sayig that the game was a mix of Dow 1 and 2, but at the time I knew that 3 was trying to be something of it's own and that was just marketing talk, but it hurted the game a lot. But it always makes senses DOw 3 be it's own thing, it's never going to fully capture both games fans trying to mix ideas of both games, and be its own game would not invalidade dow 1 and 2, and if players expected that dow 3 could have more chance. But the game itself being so barren of modes, something that Relic always does well than other rts companies, with such lack of single players content, campaign that while it's enjoyable it's a one shot of how linear it is. I defended a lot the "moba like" skirmish and mp battle but it's crazy they didn't added a Capture point system and anihilation mode at the start, this would have avoided so much trouble. But I feel the game was cut short very fast, even before cancelled they took so much time to release patches and hot fixes and most of those were very small, with the most significative is to remove the need to buy the doctrines, that was mistakenly accused of being pay-to-win for people that I think never played the game since it didn't have any miscrotransactions, but require a lot of play time to acquire the in game currency. At the foruns the devs talked a lot during the day of the cancellation that the Necrons was almost ready and have a very similar mechanic of Dow1 of ressurect and it was going to released with a big patch too but SEGA pulled teh plug, they never told if this was going to be an big expansion, dlc or free patch, but it was apparently very close of being ready to release that it hurts, it might have been what the game needed to stayed alive and get more content. Im glad that despite every issue Relic is staying with Coh3 and I hope the expansion they will release soon helps the game get more view, I dont want Coh3 follows the same path as Dow3, this would surely close Relic (they already lay off a bunch of people), and they are also doing good work with AoE 4, so maybe if Coh 3 thrives and Microsoft backing them for more AoE4 content, we might see Dow 4 in the future, but I dont have too much hope, but if another developer gets to make it, I hope it's not King Arts, all respect for Zade but I have so many issues with Iron Harvest and I would want DoW4 be more grand scale than another small tactics COh style. Also a personal gripe I had with Dow 3 for a long time ws the resource to get Heroes and the Unique Faction Powers that instead of making players commiting a lot of resources to put those powerful units and powers into game just was a glorified cooldown.
Relic simply failed to identify that what keeps people so attracted to the two previous games even to this day (or they did, which is even more heartbreaking), is the attention to detail in the visual, sound, and overall artistic approach that fits the 40k setting like a glove, and thought they could get away with making it look more "modern" and appealing to broader audiences, and for that they couldn't and can never be forgiven. They basically did what Amazon done to the LotR and Disney to pretty much anything they touch.
31:40 Suppression is in the game, just in a different form. Some units can suppress stuff in an AoE via doctrines or abilities. And sometimes, units get abilities that aren't technically called suppression but serve a similar function. Saying they're MIA is a stretch.
Aliens Vs. Predator: Extinction is still my favorite RTS. Great narrative and great gameplay. The fact it played so well on original Xbox with gamepad is the icing on the cake.
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Thank you for this video. I think it nails the real issues with the game, but also acknowledges how it wasn't a unsalvageable mess or anything and had some interesting things. The fact that it's a middle ground between 1 and 2 in some aspects is also something that makes a lot of sense given your other 2 videos on the subject.
I was under the spell of reviews and I just never ended up even buying the game. This was until recently, and honestly I really enjoyed the game. Once you know it's not the same as it's predecessors you can enjoy it for what it is. Incredibly underrated and so unfortunate the fan base (including myself) dogged on it so hard it died
What I would enjoy for a new Dawn of War (or at least a new WH40k strategy game) would be customizable unit rosters, maybe even including choices for technologies or faction bonuses. Considering a game like Crossfire: Legions (I own it and played a bit but admittably have litte knowledge of the game and the franchise in particular), the customizable roster doesn't feel that needed to me, as there aren't that many units to begin with. A franchise like WH40K (Star Wars in it's Legends continuity would be another good example) however feels like a huge toybox, out of which you usually can bring barely any toys to play. That's why I think a faction customization option would work there. If you can choose which units you use for a faction that has as many options as many of WH40K's factions have, you may be able not only to create a lot of casual play fun, but also create loreful subfactions (or your own ones, of course). Having the ability to play with the agile White Scars or the the more frontline-y Minotaurs instead of white or bronze Space Marines, Krieg attrition warfare or Elysian rapid assaults rather than just 50 Shades of Cadia (no offense, of course), would be possible due to the insane amount of different units this franchise has. You can have more exotic/ancient technology (like Grand Crusade/Horus Heresy Vehicles and Weapons), and you could be able to have, for example, the OG Astartes and the Primaris Marines in one game. Obviously, there are a few factions that would benefit less from such a system. You cannot have all the cool stuff on game launch. And it would be hard to balance. Making it competitive would become harder as more units become available, so outside of creating set subfactions for ranked play or some such, I don't think that something of the scale I'm thinking of would be possible balance-wise. But it could give the game a long lifespan, considering the amount of units or skins that could be added later on (be it as free updates or DLC). Realistically, I don't think something like that will ever happen (not with WH40K or with any other franchise). But I can dream.
I have to say that I'm flipped with you on CnC4 and DoW3. Yeah I have my own unpopular opinions, CnC4 has a lot of flaws, and definitely caused issues with the old fan base but at its core was a OK game, given the player counts have dropped like a rock its much worse now than it was when I played when it released. I bought DoW3 recently on sale for really cheap just to give it a try, between the excessive handholding of the tutorial and the fact that normal units had no weight really weighed the experience down along with many of the same complaints you made, in the end after and hour and thirty minutes I wanted nothing more to do with it and got a refund of my $5. Tbh I might have put up with it if mods worked on the campaign, some of them looked like they really addressed my gameplay gripes but it's no good if it's multi-player only, what's more it seemed the multi-player would have many of the same problems as DoW2s multi-player, musical control points is awful. I recently watched Bricky make a video on Darktide and described 4 criteria for a good Warhammer game, that is: Art, music, Voice acting, and power scaling. DoW really fails on all 4. The art clash between trailer cutscene and game doesn't help, and niether does the saturation or the overly pretty models, overly pretty models only really works for Eldar as they can just fix the wraithbone with a bit of singing, Ork armor is made of litteral trash and Blood Ravens are using Hand me downs that have been in constant service for 10,000 years. They don't make new dreadnaughts they just toss your carcass out of the Pilot's Sarcouhagus and toss in a new half dead Space marine. I don't remember the music and you didn't mention it, doesn't bode well. Voice acting is underwhelming especially Gabriel Angelos. Power scaling, Gabriel is 3x the size of his battle brothers, he does triple flips to leap at his enemy in terminator armor and slam a hammer into the ground. Even for a space marine Chapter master, Terminator armor is massive heavy gear, your not even going to be able to hop more than a a few centimeters off the ground with both legs, doing cartwheels is right out. The Heros are way stronger than they have any right to be. The Orks didn't really feel all that different when fighting either, far less than the Green Tide they are supposed to be. Eldar are supposed to hit like Trucks, but didn't feel like much of a threat. So I do think it fails at being a good Warhammer game even if it might be a Decent Dawn of War.
The fact that nobody (including Relic) has made a fully realised Warhammer (or Dawn of War) game with the scale of Supreme Commander is a tragedy. It seems so obvious yet nobody wants to do it. The franchise was built for that scale.
And have it fall flat on its face like Ashes of Singularity? No thanks.
It may not be on the scale of Supreme Commander and turn based but Final Liberation still feels bigger than DoW when it comes to the scale of the battles.
No one cares about supreme commander a game played by few people and never had any success, sorry to be that guy but is REALITY
@@dudeguybro I love Ashes of the Singularity. Its unfortunate the community is so small. 😥
@@diego2817 it did have a lot of success, its just that it's sequel didn't meet expectations isn't it?
What immediately killed it for me was troops being unable to shoot on the move. It made it feel more like a starcraft 2 mod rather than having an identity of its own.
It was disgutsting you had to grind skulls to get the moving and shooting perk. Or having NADES lol. Did not take them long to drop that skulls money system but too little too late.
I mean other then vehicles it wasn't a really useful feature in DOW 1 like being able to create "cover" that really didn't give much cover so not much of a criticism there
Dow3 felt like a *bad* StarCraft mod. In Dow 3 managing your army just felt tedious. Dow3 lacked the snap quick response of a StarCraft game and army management was a nightmare. The game somehow felt both floaty and clunky.
That because StarCraft was the last major RTS to come out
Starcraft 2, like World of Warcraft, has done near-irreperable damage to its respective genre.
It's pretty funny how, when making dow 2 & 3, focus was given to hero units, and they always talked about them as if dow 1 didn't have them, even though it did and they were very well integrated into gameplay.
Yes, DoW1 heroes were better implemented than DoW3's. You could attach them to squads, upgrade with wargear. They had sync kills. They rivaled Warcaft 3 heroes. Sheesh. The "focus on heroes" part was part of the public agenda and they kept parroting that nonsense.
This nonsense got 13 upvotes.
Dawn of War 2 plays far more like the tabletop than Dow 1 ever did.
@@DrMetropolis In what way, exactly...?
@@DrMetropolis Perhaps, it does not make it better rts game though. DoW 1 was great unique rts, and amazing for it's time. DoW 2 when it came out just felt like company of heroes with warhammer mod. There is a reason DoW 1 still most played game, more players then 2+3 together.
My hypothetical DoW IV would be just DoW I Dark Crusade but improved. The biggest flaws of the game was the awful pathfinding, the lack of variety in missions (mainly because they all were 1v1, except the Eldar stronghold).
With the apocalypse mod
Dude, yes. I played Dawn Of War 1, Dark Crusade, and DoWII all for the first time this year, and Dark Crusade is by far the best of the 3, with the small caveat that it has no story.
been saying this... just a remastered dark crusade would hit SO HARD... yet they're giving us more games that are DOA like darktide that releases 2 months late and isn't completed 2 months later
If DoW 4 played like DoW 1 with DoW 2's visuals and physics it would be perfect for me. It may not of been possible in 2009, but it sure is now when you look at what CA are managing to do with Total War.
its not going to happen unfortunately for the time being, let alone with apocalypse mod as someone suggested
It seems the game wasn't even supposed to have a campaign. That's why "cinematics" feel like an afterthought - because they are.
The brighter colours are there to attract the "MOBA audience", because SEGA. The gameplay, well, is there for the same reason. Somebody at exec position looked at Riot financial data, then looked at DoW sales, and came up wit this fantastic idea. Fantastic in its idiocy, that is.
Also don't forget one factor - back then Starcraft 2 started to losing players. Considering overall direction in gameplay changes (lack of cover mechanics, sync-kills, fixed camera, castration of unit updgrade system, even overall art direction and style) this was really a attempt to: a - get SC2 players, b- get MOBA crowd, c- use hype of DoW and W40K fans and d - DEFINETIVELY turn skulls into MTX system. Author completely forgot about this (bc was later on deleted by Relic), but at first doctrines and Elites (both chosen before match, like in MOBA) neede to be bought via skulls. Those were avaliable only via grind by playing game and levelling elites (also by playing single player and skirmish). The whole system required grinding - you could not get enough skulls to unlock all, or even majority of upgrades/doctrines. And those hide so many BASIC rts mechanics - like deploying turrets or... throwing grenades by units! Gladly they failed miserably at it.
BTW speaking about game modes - Relic ditched COMPLETELY a good amount of players (especially from DoW 2 and CoH) by NEVER adding Victory Point mode. Also most of launch maps were not good for Anihilation because of heavy restricting, lane design with Power Core ar mind. Many tactics and strategies were useless - games quickly were going into blob vs blob skirmishes. No point of bulding forward bases. Especially with many army-wiping abilities of Elite units.
Without MAJOR overhauls in gameplay DoW 3 did not stand a chance in a long run. Just another AT BEST mediocre game, overhyped and overpriced considering its quality and amount of content. But the one that was a part of outstanding series of games. So in the end it deserved it fate.
To me it felt the opposite. It felt like the game was designed around the campaign, and then the multiplayer was just an afterthought that they slapped together a month before release when they realized "oh yeah... this is supposed to be a multiplayer game!"
No lmao
They had a philosophy making this game that every unit should have unique animations, so that those could be used to distinguish between units. That energetic bobbing around is so emblematic of what caused the game to fail.
i thought they did unique animations in dow1
Nah what caused it to fail was them wanting to force it to be mlg circuit
Dow1 is even more advanced mechanical than COH... The synkills and the high amour of animations is impossible to see in any other RTS
Except running and gunning and executions. Lazy work.
I'm sorry but trying to compare Mass Effect Andromeda and Cyberpunk 2077, two games that were unplayable at launch because the higher ups chose to release the games before they were ready, to a game like Dawn of War 3 which was simply designed in a way that the fans didn't want is completely ludicrous. I'm honestly shocked that it was one of your key arguments as to why the game failed.
This needs to me top comment
i see what you're saying but from where i'm sitting this comment literally proves my point lol - i played both at launch and imo were totally fine. yes, they had issues, but they were completely overblown and the backlash was not in line with what was wrong with them. everyone's experience is different though, and they were very possibly unplayable for some.
but yeah, get where you're coming from 100% - appreciate you watching
@@Zade_95 sorry I can't agree. I had fun streaming mass effect Andromeda. But it was bland, too easy and heavily bugged. I tried to play game plus and got stuck at the beginning of the game In the transport vehicle. It was pretty hilarious. Cyberpunk was very bad and wasn't even the game we was promised. The bugs even though I didn't experience the worse like others. Still had cops spawning on top of you as soon as you do anything wrong. Dawn of War 3 wasn't broken. It just rubbed fans the wrong way. I enjoyed it from launch to when the game died and would still play to this day. I don't even like dow2 but the heros wasn't even like dow2 and unit management was enjoyable and I loved dow1. I'm not even mad about the 3 factions.
@@Zade_95 That’s true for Andromeda. But 2077 was the definition of unplayable at launch. You would not accept a restaurant selling you a burger that looks awful and wasn’t cooked completely, even if it was strictly ‘edible’. 2077 was sold on last generation consoles and those were so unplayable that both Sony and Microsoft pulled the title from their stores. That’s unheard of for a AAA title.
Dawn of War 3 had launch issues, and I would even agree that the game missed the mark. It certainly didn’t meet fan expectations. But it is not a Cyberpunk 2077, or even a Mass Effect Andromeda.
I think CP2077 was fairly playable despite the bugs, but didn't Andromeda have some gamebreaking bugs, like, seriously gamebreaking, iirc CP2077 had some but they were less serious.
Mass effect Andromeda was not crushed because of unreal expectations. Between the slew of bugs, poor story, and poor new mechanics it was a half baked game thrown out and got burned for it.
Also, I loved the video all the same. Keep up the amazing work.
Appreciate it!
Why I do agree with the issues you mention, I do think expectations played a big part in it. I mean any game following up the ME trilogy would have an impossible challenge ahead of it haha - but that's Bioware's 'fault' for making a great series and not delivering on a new entry
I also want to add cringe dialogues and lack of memorable characters compare to OG trilogy!
@@M6nst6r6 I'm going to have to fundamentally disagree with you on the characters not being memorable. I found Andromeda's characters exceptionally bland or irritating to the point that I remember every time they annoyed me in vivid detail.
@@trolldrool Well I didn't liked any of them either anyway! :)
@Zippy Dastrange Except mass effect 2 was a massive improvement in literally every way over its predecessor, with 3 furthering it, and then andromeda going backasswards into a pit of trash in those same respects.
DoW 3 singlehandedly killed my desire to ever pre-order a game again. I never thought I would have my emotions affected by a video game, in such a negative way. I think you answer your own question with what is a Dawn of War game. Regardless of what it contains or portents to be, it is a Warhammer game first, and should respect the setting and the fans. DoW 3 did neither, and the 'eSports' angle only added salt to the wound.
Keep doing what you do mate. I really appreciate the effort you put into your content, including thought-provoking/controversial stuff like this. I usually try to keep this game from my mind lol
Thanks man, I will!
Honestly what the made the fall is the lack of particular basic features and the lack of defining features that somehow slipped through to the game, pulling basically the worst thing possible, pulling a C&C 4. While yes it is not that bad but the strange decisions compound into that impression.
Missing Basic features:
-Straightforward dedicated campaingns of each faction alone with any semblance of glorified tutorial missions restricted to the first 2-3 missions.
-Lack of agency with the latter bits constantly spawning units despite wiping out production making it feel pointless and tedious
-Lack of maps and basic game modes, there is no reason to not include an annihilation or VP game modes and unncessarily run the game's reputation into the grinder with sticking with a highly divisive game mode of Power Core.
Missing Defining Features that has been a staple in previous DOW games
Lack of infantry weapon upgrades:
-This has been a staple not only in Dawn of war but Relic's COH games as well
-Going from being able to arm the base infantry squads with flamethrowers to just an ability to do a flamepuff is a baffling step back
- splitting said heavy weapons to longer ranged shoot harder guys without additional features or customizations to emphasize further is also a step back particularly with the lack of morale and suppression mechanics.
Lack of Distinctive regular units/infantry:
- they're basically mobs compared to your elite units compared to previous games which can do amazing things if you use them right with their customized equipment and upgrades to even the playing field
Lack of morale, suppression or a cover system
- not only did they somehow miss simply repeating DOW1 style cover system and calling it a day, they somehow regressed that into this weird capture point bubble garrison that is just weird to interact with and very irrelevant later on compared to both games
-Morale and supression basically turns infantry combat into something highly one note as you just nick HP of each other instead of using abiltities or specialists that can snap up morale to turn the tide or supress them to get that one ability or unit to do their battle defining thing is another baffling step back as well. This also hampers how the different arms of combined arms affect each other aside from HP depletion.
No sync kills:
-This has been a novel feature in previous dawn of war games that was also absent in this one
The real issue at the end of it is that people were expecting a return to dawn of war, rather than new innovation which in my opinion was implemented rather poorly.
It's just absolutely terrible. The poor implementation just killed it faster. I couldn't play the game for five minutes. I also despise mobas though.
@@trompell0 Yeah they implemented half baked ideas while in all truth most dawn of war fans wanted either a return to the original dawn of war style of base building and huge army battles or an expanded system of the dawn of war 2 style of play, either way its sad to see what they did to a beloved franchise for the sake of chasing innovation at the cost of everything else.
That's a dumb expectation considering every DoW was vastly different from the previous one.
@@HighLanderPonyYT I disagree , we had two forms of gameplay both from dow and dow 2 which proved very successful , the devs had two full successful games to pull from in terms of gameplay and what the player base wanted, to say we shouldn't expect similarities that made the previous games fun is somewhat idiotic.
@@HighLanderPonyYT ok but the shift from rts to tactical rts is nothing like shifting to dog shit tier moba trash.
I felt like the reliance on elites was a little much. The game came down to using your elits to kill their elites and every other unit was basically trash to be smashed by elites. Polar opposite of the other 2 DOW games.
T1 basic bitch 'Ard Boyz could stunlock the strongest elite, Taldeer but sure, keep on going on with your nonsense.
I believe that a huge mistake with this tittle (not included in this video) is the game being not modding friendly, previous DoW games are kept alive for a big modding community, a good example is Unification mod for DoW1, adding factions and features not included in the OG game. Mods extend a game’s life for years.
I think something that is never really talked about, but was a huge problem was how incredibly broken the MP was. The Orks were god awful. The space marines with their staking stuns on assault marines and scout combo meant that you were always playing space marines or were losing. Its been a long time since I played but if I remember correctly jump marines has a stun on jump effect and scouts has a stun grenade ability were the cooldowns would work out that you could perma stun large groups. Usually meant the game was over so quickly you never even got to the vehicles stage of the game
Yeah, the game balance was a huge problem... but honestly, game balance has never been a strong suit for Dawn of War, or Warhammer 40k itself for that matter lol
Gotta disagree on DoW2 multi-player being bad.
Indrid Casts does narrated DoW2 matches (admittedly with the Elite Mod, which focuses on balance) - but these are exceptionally entertaining and fun to play.
It's excellent (unless you judge it by skirmish vs AI and call it a day).
Hard agree, my favourite game and I have over 10k games of SC2 played.
DoW2 is a great game when you judge it on its own merits. Its a disappointing game when you look at it through the lens of it being a sequel to Dawn of War 1. It went from a real RTS with base building to a tactical battler with a hero and 5-6 unit squads at most.
If they make a Dawn of War IV a new and improved Dark Crusade would be nice. Take the elite concept and make then comanders of separate army's under one banner. Still has them be impactful but allows you to still have massive battles with normal units. This also could come back to the gear you gave comanders in dark crusade. Have some missions be like DOW2 were your tasked with a certain objective kind of like spec ops missions were your allowed to weaken a territory before the main force comes rolling in. Just some ideas
if it can't be churned into a live service riddled with exclusive skins and ingame currency these companies are unlikely to give that idea even a glance
I'd like to see dow be a combination of dow and starfield lol
For me personally lack of proper cover system and sync kills were a major deal breaker for DoW 3.
ya no cover is like WHAT
There technically IS a cover system, but it's wildly different. There is a useful strategy to it though.
Finally, some reason in the sea of "nO cOvEr!" nonsense.
Why did Relic decide to ruin the artstyle? Easy answer. Esports. That is the beginning and end of this game, they didn't care about the fans, they didn't care about the lore, they didn't care about the story, the atmosphere, the voice actors or anything else, other than making an esports hit. And why did they want that? Money. Because lots of money isn't enough, it has to be ALL THE ESPORTS MONEY. The fans told them that neither esports players or the fans would be interested in this very early on, but they ploughed on. No doubt some slimy, out of touch, non-fan or non-gamer executive producer just saw this game as a tick list for things to make recurrent income as opposed to a captivating 40k game, and was just like "trust me brah the shareholders are gonna love this".
Also, basically every 'redeeming quality' you mention, is still a negative for the most part. I don't personally care about how the elites play, because I don't want elites, at all, full stop. The game balance is fucking atrocious. You allude to liking some of the MOBA elements, and keep trying to downplay its similarity to a MOBA, but to the rest of us, we don't like MOBAs, and this has enough elements from a thing we don't like to ruin what we did like before. Imagine paying a premium for your favourite dish. Then imagine that dish being served to you covered with a sauce made of rancid human shit. But the sauce isn't *pure* shit, just mostly shit. Are you still going to eat it, smile and pay up? Yeah, didn't think so lol.
This game still makes me fucking angry. I played the beta for the game, and that was enough. the actual game made me more angry, not less. But I wasn't going to pay money for it, reviews and the beta showed me everything I needed to see. Not angry at you bro, love your content!
Edit: Seeing the marketing clips you put in here really contextualises everything. These people don't really understand 40k beyond a very, very thin surface level, throwing out buzzwords as if they can distract us from their clear lack of comprehension...
(Edited for punctuation and expansion)
Exactly
There's a very weird notion with RTS developers that some day someone's gonna come up with a game that grabs all the MOBA players back, as if MOBA players and RTS players ever had a significant overlap to begin with.
@@joshuabacker2363 MOBA games were born from RTS' womb, so the executives think they can push the baby back in.
They get rid of one of the best features created in an RTS, Sync kills...
Not ESPORTS at all, if so Relic would AT LEAST have put an observer mode, they simply released it as is to clean the pipeline for AoE4, they clearly didn't gave a fuck.
The biggest sin they did was get rid of the sync kills...that was a peak dow mechanic
It showed how out of toutch they were
Thinking of the demon bosses and talk of lore accuracy, too-- Was reading a Ghazghkull book and in that same book when he was barely leaving his first planet, he 1v1'ed a Khorne greater demon with a bunch of orks cheering them on, whilst 'dying' to 1 tank shell. Greater demons don't seem like very intimidating end bosses anymore
In the lore, how resilient even quote powerful daemons are depends on the availability of warp energy. Angron had to call off a campaign during his invasion of Armageddon due to a warp storm calming down and his daemons needing more warp energy.
@@BrianFlyingPenguin In this book they were coming straight from an open rift and managed to open it wider to let itself through, so I would assume it was pretty well fed on warp energy. I find it entertaining, though..
Ghazghkull got depressed at not getting to fight a primarch, and when he's booted from Armageddon, in comes Angron
@@AnthroTsuneon Well... Yeah, that sounds like bullshit. I mean, it could be that all the energy was going into keeping the portal open, but that's probably wishful thinking from me.
@@BrianFlyingPenguin Probably more likely that the boss got cheered on by enough orks to power'em up
@@AnthroTsuneon I'm a 2nd Ed player. That whole 'clap your hands' thing just annoys me.
is it just me or does the art style fit PERFECT with eldar, but nothing else? feel like Eldar always was this pure clean and almost sterile faction, where the only "dirt" you will see on them is the blood of their enemies. but the art style don't fit for anything else really
It fits the Tau. And to a certain extent the Necrons. But apart from that, you're right.
That was my thought when he zoomed in on a very accurate rendering taken from the Striking Scorpion marketing material from GW. They literally look exactly like the minis do on their online store.
Pure? clean? Sounds more like you're xenos sympathizer, you traitor!
I have unfortunately not played any of the Dawn of War games but I've had friends who did and I was able to gather a second-hand experience for each game and each expansion. However, the video has been informative and she some light over aspects that neither me nor my friends have considered. Good stuff, big big like!
That intro had me pressing the exterminatus button...until I saw the gun.
haha I was hoping some people would write their SEETHING COMMENTS before seeing it was a joke :P
I did played the game, but gave up after the 4th mission.
My biggest problem with DoW III is that it wasn't a sequel to DoW I Dark Crusade. The base game was amazing, it just needed improvement, like battles with more than 2 factions. Relic changed way too many gameplay mechanics and removed squad customization options, and all of that in a very linear campaign.
Changing faction each mission is the worst part for me, because I prefer to play a very long campaign with a single faction, and hate being forced to play with a faction I don't like. And I had a problem with the factions, because while I like Space Marines, I hate Eldars and Orks. I wish the Necrons or T'au came back, they don't have as much spotlight.
The very basic cutscenes, lack of French dub and obvious focus on esport rather than PvE made me realize that the game was just a cheap cash grab by Sega who didn't care about the license, and Relic who didn't know if they wanted to do more DoW I or more DoW II.
I agree. I mean, I love eldar, but do they really have to be in every game? Variety is healthy
I don't disagree with the rest but why would you want a dub, especially a French dub? They always suck.
Not having played it, I have no say whether or not the game is bad. Sadly however that wouldn't matter. It could've been the best, most highly rated RTS game in history, but the unit animations would still kill it for me. The way my brain works (and I have no idea why), if I notice one detail where something feels off, the effort needed to ignore it will leave me exhausted. And knowing that beforehand it's just not worth it for me.
Watching a Terminator leap, Is like watching a Jedi use a blasters only. It hurts the mind thinking about it. Lore matters. The next crew needs to respect the lore.
Eh, Gabriel was like at least 75% machine by then, remember how Kyras chopped him up at the end of Retribution? It's at least plausible.
Honestly, I think the leap issue was way overblown and turned into a meme. And would have been a non issue if all the other problems weren't also there.
It may seem like a small thing but the lack of sync kills killed it for me. It didn't feel as alive as it's predecessors.
So, I'll come and say this.
During EGX Birmingham, I was one of the people who got to play the Demo for Dawn of War 3.
During this Demo, me and my friends got to play the game, specifically on the Mission exact mission where the game gets good, the Ice fields as the Blood Ravens.
In this Mission, it was Saturated as hell, you couldnt really enjoy the grim darkness with all the Flashy effects, and there were plenty of bugs that had happened in the session.
After we had our Mission time up (you only got like 40mins Max), We pointed out to the Staff that there were issues and how to Resolve them (We were Games Design Students), to this extent, the Staff got VERY Defensive about the game and tried to divert the conversation away from any Problems, we were being Polite and reassuring that we were gonna get the game anyway, but they were still really worried.
Fast Track to Launch, and me and my Friends are excited, we finally get to play, but my friends were skeptical, so I decided I would buy it, and Stream it for us as I am the main RTS Player in our Group, and we kept finding more and more things Wrong with the game, it just wouldnt stop, We are Very big lore nerds regarding 40k, and alot of things were just so ridiculous in the animations and aesthetic of the game compared to what we got, that we couldnt shake this, it was really immersion breaking for us.
Within a Week, we had all Decided, that we would never play Dawn of War 3 again, it had lost our Respect and was a Betrayal of the Standard that Relic had with their Previous games.
This really saddened us, as we wanted to have Both DOW1-2 combined, to have this Tactical gameplay where troops mattered while making Bases, (Heck, I play Techmarine in DOW2 just to make Bases).
all in all, Relic had earned the Ire of the community, they couldnt even get Gabriel Angelos to be Canonically Correct either!! (For those that Completed DOW2, Gabriels Left eye is the Cybernetic Eye, in DOW3, they made his Right eye have no Cybernetics instead)
I was also a Blood Raven player when i first started Warhammer, so you can Imagine my Disappointment when they couldnt even get my damn Chapter Master correct (now I play Custodes and Black Templars).
Hope you all have a Nice day, I hope people enjoy DOW3, but I just Cannot Forgive it.
This is very interesting - appreciate you posting!
So this might be just subjectivity at play, but I don't really see why you like the Elites. I find them a lot more boring than the skirmish heroes in Dawn of War 2. In Dawn of War 2, you only had the choice of 3 heroes, and each hand their own set of doctrine type abilities tied to that specific hero, so there was less variety than in 3 in that sense. However, the heroes in DoW2 had wargear, and so even though it was the same hero, you could go with a wide variety of builds throughout your different games. Take my favorite hero, the Warp Spider Exarch, for example. You could build him with support abilities like group teleport and shimmer orbs, or you could turn him into an assassin with the improved teleport and the power blades. Plus, most wargear had to be unlocked by teching up, so you still have that aspect of early investment vs. late game power. By contrast, Elites are always identical, minus the choice between one of two doctrines, one of which will become a regular doctrine at some level anyway, and they come at no cost to your army, so unlike DoW2, where heroe wargear came at the cost of units and upgrades, and a hero going down required either map control or a lot of resources to revive, Elites are just powerhouses that come at no cost to your army. Plus, like you said, they're really the only units who have any really interesting combat mechanics, with your mainline units clearly being made as essentially mobs for Elites to mash up, but it doesn't really feel earned unlike previous games, where heroes and super units were actually expensive. To me, Dawn of War 3 really is the worst of the series, and I have played it too. Still, I know a lot of people did like this game, mostly people who didn't really play the first two, and if you like it, more power to you, but I really do think it's awful.
The thing that infuriates me about DoW3 was that from a game design standpoint, looking purely at game mechanics, it's actually a pretty solid game. A hero-centric RTS with troops and base building as support, WarCraft III did that first, and people loved it.
I really do mean it when I say that had this gameplay style be spun off into its own separate franchise instead of sticking the Dawn of War label, it could have been successful on its own. I know creating a new IP has its risks, but it's like in baseball, you never know whether it will be a strike, ball, or a hit (home run even) until you actually pitch the ball. If it was up to me, I would have returned to DoW1 and use that as the foundation for DoW3. I know DoW2 has its fans, but honestly, it's less of an RTS and more of a tactics game, which is another game that could have been successful being spun off as its own franchise. In a nutshell, DoW3 just feels like a waste: the potential is there, but cause of various reasons, it failed.
The problem is not that they tried something new with the game. The problem is that they run after a mainstream trend instead of making it in their own way.
Yeah, I could agree with that
@@Zade_95 It happens a lot sadly. Everytime a franchise gets successful they chase the mainstream. Like with battle royale or the open world gimmick. Suddenly the game needs it even so nobody in the fan community asked for it. That destroyed so many games.
What baffled me in DoW3 was all of the hero units were spot on. They felt exactly like what I'd come to expect from the series in every way. The knight paladin was by far my favorite in this regard, so much flavor and personality.
Then you stand him next to a heavy bolter squad that looks like it had maybe 3 frames of animation in total.
Couldn't agree more
Unfortunatly, the objective quality of the game is irrelevant when it's not the thing you wanted.
You ask for an apple. You're promised an apple. And then you got a banana. No matter how good the banana is, it's not an apple. It's not what you wanted.
So, while I don't think I can say what "Dawn of War" is, it's safe to say it's not DoW3.
yeah - definitely understand that perspective!
I'm actually prefer the Dawn of War 2 playstyle than a full on RTS
The thing is that merge of squad based and larger army micro had been done in COH2. There were plenty of missions where you’d control a few squads DOW2 style in the same game as base building and managing big armies
Thing is they were separate and there wasn’t really any Heroes, just normal units with unique abilities and that helped dodge one of the key issues where elites are very strong and normal units are just chaff around them because they wanted it to be a MOBA.
The attempt to merge the Dow1 and 2 combats together was a mistake in the same way putting your cake and fresh fish together is a mistake. Both are good, both are enjoyed but for different reasons. I can speculate that the change from DOW1 to DOW2 and the success there gave them confidence to change up the gameplay again.
I think the bad presentation is one of the biggest reasons for DOW3’s failure. When you have a track record of perfectly capturing the 40k universe, make a trailer that perfectly captures the 40k universe and a huge fanbase that buys your game because of its representation of the 40k universe failing to deliver because you want to make it look more like League of Legends basically taints everything in original sin and its not something anyone would have predicted Relic to balls up
40k fans kept Eternal Crusade alive for far longer than it deserved just because it did, for all its faults, look and feel like 40k and they wanted to keep the game going so it could get more content.
Those two together, it not playing like any other DOW game and not making it look like anything from the 40k universe makes it feel off and plasticky, like a knockoff superhero toy thats clearly aping a popular hero but is distinct enough to dodge a lawsuit.
Not engaging with community criticism further lowers people’s willingness to be charitable and canning the game 10 months in after harvesting sky high preorders from your intense marketing campaign will forever have you remembered as the bad guys
IMO DOW3 deserves the stick it gets, not for the game’s objective hideousness, but for how it was managed and the final insult of not being willing to actually try and fix it.
Its another thing to show that going against your loyal customer base to chase a mystical “wider appeal” is like gouging your eyes out so you can have a cool guide dog
After watching this video I thought to myself I'll give DOW3 a chance after ignoring it at launch. I could not believe that not only had I played they game but had also completed it. Then the waves of memories flooded back and the reminder of so many tedious missions to over. In short I decided not to install the game
I think the best key point you raised was that the dawn of war series always tried to adapt and try something different. Its just a shame dawn of war 3 didn't market itself like that.
Yeah, it's funny when you think that no two dawn of war games have actually really been that similar - even within it's expansions. DC and SS (or DOW2 and CR) are probably the most like one another, but (at least in the campaign sense), nearly every release tried something new. Agree though, DOW3 didn't market itself in the right way and probably took it in the wrong direction, even it was going to be different from DOW1/2
It did. It was the entire time. They deflected and ignored all criticism to the point of killing the game.
Bring back the Necrons! What they could have done is build a whole game around the Necrons conquering all! Except our fav reviewer, Zade! They could have feature more variety in races. With a universe of possibilities, they could introduce more new races with each expansion.
Yeah man. Would've been awesome!
you made me play it during christmas and it is better and worse than i've expected at the same time
i just want to go back in time to the cinematic trailer release and be hyped once again
Oh man, I feel you man, that bloody trailer was peak 40K. One of the few things that beats out even the great astartes series with the mood it sets.
Omg thank you for the world in conflict mention, still one of my favorite games and i still watch its cinematics from time to time cause i still dream of a a sequel that will never come 😄
I just wanted Company of Heroes with a 40k skin. WHY IS THAT SO HARD!
Yep that's pretty much all they had to do, and that was what everyone was expecting.
Wtf? DOW 2 is company of heroes in space, and dow2 is the start of the falling down series...
@@diego2817 If you think DoW2 is Company of Heroes in Space YOU NEVER HAVE PLAYED COH!!!! DoW2 is closer to a Diablo arpg than to CoH or CoH2
What made Dawn of War interesting as an RTS was not the 40k coat of paint, It was that It had more factions than any other before or ever since. 5 playable races, then 7, then 9, all asymetrical. You just take CoH gameplay and balance 5 or 6 factions for It (easier said than done) then add more. Total War Warhammer did It
@@gerardotejada2531 mmm nope is not the factions, dow1 had 4, is the unique game play, sync kills, voice acting and unique game play what makes dow1 the best Dow and why dow3 is not considered a dow game
We play (the 10-20 players that still play online) every day, but it's during European afternoons the correct time to look for games.
Thank you for reminding me of Impossible creatures! I've had fond memories of that game knocking around in my head for years but I'd forgotten that name and consequently wasn't sure where to begin when searching for it.
hell yeah man, always great to hear from another impossible creatures enjoyer
The color pallet is what Starcraft did, from Grimdark aesthetic to bright infant cartoon.
Crashing a Battle Barge into a planet seems incredibly out of character for the Blood Ravens and in general, a Battle Barge without bombardment cannons?
😬 just don't think about it 😂
LOL dude. The intro. I think I just died. There are many great points here, and things we all hope Relic has learned from. However, I will definitely tip my hat to the animations team. The animations and model designs felt very fluid and even gorgeous at times. Props to them; unfortunately, so much else is wrong with the game.
It would be cool to see King Art carve out a Dawn of War game, however I don't know all of the intricacies of the Dawn of War IP stuff. That would have to be willingly passed off. The campaign was actually good in that game, but the multiplayer was too symmetrical. With the 40K factions, that should be easily fixable to their inherent asymmetry. Whether they took it DoW1 style or DoW2 wouldn't matter to me, but a pick a lane. I have a feeling they would go with DoW2 style based on them making a game similar to CoH.
It's completely insincere to say that C&C4 is terrible, yet DoW3 is "okay", there is no mention of the entire "Skulls" in-game currency that you had to grind controvery here, which was so controversial that it was removed day one due to the sheer backlash, I had expected a more in-depth review with better research than just sharing an experience based on the state of the game 5 years later when the dust has long settled down, and calling out people for not liking it. No mention of the developmental history of DoW3, the original plans for DoW3 under THQ being an MMO RTS like the failed CoHO as it made headlines back in 2011, no mention of E3 2016 backlash, no mention of now defunct DoW3 forums controversy with trigger happy moderators banning anyone slighly criticising the game here and there... Perhaps something that was universally disliked had a reason for being universally disliked as even the DoW3 forums went defunct a year later, and believe me that the moderators that were hired by Relic on both DoW3 and Steam forums made the situation even worse regarding the communication, thus the death of the playerbase in a month. I think that the companies should avoid hiring boneless slimy shills for marketing and moderation, it will have adverse effects otherwise than expected.
yup yup and yup. I cant stand this snobbish gaslighting shit I see alot of dow3 defenders attempt with making out the "haters" just cant think objectively elitist fart sniffing thing. It was just a terrible game simple as. Ya player base does not go from over 25k to 2k in just over a month if the game was Objectively good in any dam way.
When he start to praise the model animation i just went meh , there is no weight , too goofy and Gabriel doing flip in his terminator armor . Even if DoW franchise always try new things , it still have to follow a few set of rule that define the Warhammer 40k settings .
@@kampfer91 Thats it. Even thou the universe is not "real" you have to make it at least follow the laws set. I could not get over the gaslighting they were trying to pull when fans called terminator flips out. Saying its not real world calm down, 40k is super over the top anyway toxic fans blah blah blah.
Thank you for leaving the comment I would've wanted to leave if this terrible video didn't give me an actual IRL headache. I can't believe I used to watch this stooge. I'm glad I unsubbed at some point in the past and now I'm asking youtube never to show me his videos again
I think the community unified in expressing their displeasure and complaints is a great thing. Better that this game is killed off and make the developer and publisher bleed money.
yeah me too - it certainly sent a clear message haha
I think part of the reason why the campaign's storyline stumbled was because it had you constantly shift from one race's story to the next. You got a mission with the Space Marines, then suddenly had to swap over to the Orks. And I think that made the game suffer, because if you want to get your players to master each race's skills and abilities while constantly cycling between each one, they have to play similarly or else the player is just going to get lost. That lack of diversity just makes each faction feel kinda same-y but with a different coat of paint.
The terminator flip fucking killed this game.
Regarding my opinion of DoW3, I remember getting in on the beta, and my enthusiasm evaporating slowly from the point of being ready to buy off of the trailer alone to never purchasing the game over the course of hour after hour throughout the weekend. It was awful, and the memory still makes me sad to this day.
Great Video!
I really didnt mind DoW3 presentation. The lack of upgradable/customizable units and spawning enemies killed it for me. I dont really play RTS multiplayer. Wasnt fun in skirmish either though.
"Even if you hate the game, you've got to respect that." No, I don't, because a video game sequel should be more of the same but improved. Relic changing the formula with each game is not something that should be praised.
FAIR
I always thought the art style was trying to mimic freshly painted minis on the tabletop and I thought it acheived it
My issue always was that it failed to be either Dow 1 or 2, it fell flat on its promises and left me disinterested in continuing the game. 2 was a massive puzzle with it's unit restrictions, 1 was great. 3 just promised one thing and have another and did it rather weakly. It is the CNC generals of dawn of war, sending the series back to it's undo slumber waiting for a revival.
the hell did generals do?
Generals ain't what put c&c to rest, its Tiberium twilight that did
Yooo Poncha feature! you should keep up the dope features! Been following your channel for a while now- so glad that someone decided to make an RTS retrospective type channel (hopefully with all the new rts coming out it'll be more reviews than retrospectives though ;) )
I will! Was great to have Poncha on, good lad
Yeah there's certainly no shortage of stuff cover in the next wee while!
@Zade_95, as a DOW3 dev I love that you gave the game a fair shake. It definitely deserves a lot of the criticisms it received but I do think it had a few redeeming aspects. You were pretty spot on with most of your insights regarding the development of the game. Hit me up and maybe I could fill in some if the blanks for you. It was one of those games that I never get tired of talking about. Cheers
Thank you! I did what I could and I always try to approach games without preexisting bias.
I might take you up on that actually, do you have a twitter/discord? Feel free to email me or dm on Twitter if you don't want to put those details here
DoW 1 was a blast. I couldn't believe how great it was at the time.
DoW2, I bought it blindly thinking i was getting the same with new factions and better graphics. Wrong! I felt betrayed but I gave it a try and it grew on me. I think now it's a cool game. I come back to it once every two years.
DoW3, I tried for 8 hours i guess and I never ever had the will to come back again.
DoW2 was ok really, but obviously the course of action should have been to come back to the origins and update it. Relic could be BIG by now if this simple decision was made.
Played this on a pirated copy my friend gave me when it came out. No idea what Warhammer was, just that it was an RTS. Really enjoyed it but forgot the name for years. Little did I know this was the best way to play the game lol
still play this today and love it.
It wasn't that bad. But it tried to do three things and did them all poorly. You had mediocre base building. You had mediocre tactics. And according to my MOBA loving friends the MOBA bits are just bad.
Troops didn't really do much but tie up enemies until the hero unit could get around to killing them.
The maps didn't feel like RTS maps. There were often hallways connecting arenas and boss fights.
I played through the first 8 missions and just stopped.
DOW 2 still the most MOBA of the three..
All that stuff you are complaining about started with dow2 thats where the seeds of evil were planted
@@francopereyra6659 No, in DOW2 a hero can't solo 2 units at lv1, in DOW3 they could wipe them in less than 10 seconds. Losing them mattered (they costed ressources to call back unlike the 3rd), you had to use ressources to upgrade them.
@@etarckneus9702 An space marine commander could deal with almost every infantry squad in the early game (warboss and hive tyrant were even better)
Loosing an elite in DOW 3 matter too, they costed quite a handful of resurces.
And yes, you had to use resources to upgrade them, which was more like buying items in a moba game dont you think?
By the late game you could have an space marine commander in terminator Armour killing tanks left and right with the power claws
@@francopereyra6659 In the early game some hero could win against 1 unit, not 2. Compare that to elite who could wipe 2 units effortlessly.
Elite didn't cost ressource after the first time, you only had to wait for the couldown. In DoW2 it costed you requisition to call a hero back. Elite also only used a ressource unique to them, you didn't have to make a choice to buy a unit and an elite, their ressource cost never overlap.
"And yes, you had to use resources to upgrade them, which was more like buying items in a moba game dont you think?"
Dow1 had upgrade for units and heroes, DoW2 did too, they didn't just change stat but the purpose of the unit/hero (flammer, plasma and missile launcher and different strength and weakness) and sometimes new abilities, that's not something MOBA does.
"By the late game you could have an space marine commander in terminator Armour killing tanks left and right with the power claws"
And you had to have invested ressources that could have been invested in other units (something you cannot do in DoW3 because no ressource overlap), and loosing that hero would cost you ressources to bring back, that you could have invested in other units (something that never happened in DoW3 because no ressource overlap and the elite was free after the first time).
Coming to this a little late, but I think I can explain the art direction at least. That bright shining colour saturated art style does make sense, if you know a little bit about the history of the 40k tabletop games.
See, the bright clean colour-saturated art style they went for in the game is in fact extremely accurate to Warhammer 40,000.... in 6th edition. At the time this game was made in the mid-to-late 2010s, the bright stylised clean colour-saturated style was exactly the same as how the Games Workshop miniatures studio was painting their models, which were used in all the promotional photos for the tabletop game and thus set the visual tone for 40k in 2012-2017. Incidentally, this style is still used today, and the 40k models painted in the official GW Studio paint schemes all look, well, just like the units in Dawn of War 3 do.
At the same time, it's worth noting that Games Workshop is notoriously iron-fisted with their IP. This is especially true with video games, where Games Workshop tends to breathe down the game developers' necks a lot in order to get things looking as close to the currently supported tabletop game as possible. Personnel at Tindalos Interactive have said as much in in interviews regarding their own 40k games. I would not be surprised in the slightest if Games Workshop had pressured Relic into making the game's visuals match the official studio paint schemes as closely as physically possible.
The trouble with this, of course, is that there are now - as of this comment - 10 different 40k tabletop games (13-14 if you count the Horus Heresy ones, and pushing 20-25 if you count the spinoff tabletop games on top of that) most of which have wildly differing visual styles from each other. A lot of Dawn of War fans, and indeed a lot of older 40k fans, were introduced to the IP through Warhammer 40,000 3rd and 4th edition, which is where much of the darker grittier visual style comes from and in the case of 4th edition in particular is the 40k that was captured by the original Dawn of War. For people used to that version of 40k, the brighter cleaner more colour saturated visuals of 6th edition onwards are a very jarring change, both in the tie-in video games and in the tabletop studio models. This, I suspect, is where a lot of the issues with Dawn of War 3's visuals stem from.
There were many, many, problems with DoW3.
If you're looking at just the frontend, they added the skulls currency, the factions didn't feel as fleshed out, the campaign was mostly unimaginative.
If you're looking at gameplay:
Audio - doesn't feel punchy and visceral, the camera likely was part of the issue here with it being further set back to feature some of the larger units
Cover System - Adding the capture zone style bunkers rather that environment cover as seen in DoW1, DoW2, COH1&2. Utilized deformed terrain based on the choices a player makes while in gameplay. This made the game actually feel older than the named titles which all utilized that style cover system which made the gameplay more engaging. Instead this felt like Starcraft or Command & Conquer
Visuals - Color selection and Saturation all felt like they were going for a more arcadey design that'd be appeal again to the Starcraft audience.
Admittedly the whole thing was disappointing and I raised many of those complaints when they showcased the gameplay at PAX and the team that was there was not receptive to any feedback or commentary that was not positive.
I loved DOW2 & SC2 but hated DOW3. I wouldn't say it was like SC
I love your witty cadence with your subtle jokes. Well made video Zade :)
Thanks Aaron, appreciate ya
Yeah the limited number of factions really turned me off the game. I didn't bother with it because of how few it had. Battlefield Gothic 2 was kinda the same as it was disappointing on how limited the number of campaigns were but at least they had all the races in multiplayer so can still take them out into battle. Because of the I got BFG2 where as I passed on DOW3.
Honestly I don't know why more games can't do a DOW: Dark Crusade style mode where it's all factions on a strategic map and the typical RTS battle for the conquest of each region. It makes it so you don't need some indepth campaign for every faction but still let players play them out in some way.
I'm fine admiting I'm one of those who has not played DOW3. As for you question when have you played a game you thought would be bad but turned out you were wrong... Never. That said it's cause I know my taste, I've played games I've heard other people say were bad but I liked however I went into them expecting them to be good because they had something that interested me. Over the years I've been burned by a lot of hyped games and know what red flags to look for as a lot of games have giant red flags that not everything is ship shape before release, as well as what type of experience the game is going to be.
The limited Factions is what kept me away and why I don't plan on giving it a chance. I'm not a huge fan of SM, Orcz, and Elder. If I had to pick 3 races I would have preferred to see Tau, Necron, and Nids would be my picks. SM are over done, Elder are just snobby elves, and Orcz though do have an amusing sense of humor so I do like them thematic wise but not a fan of their play style.
I found this review rather informative however even though you say give it a try I'm even more turned off the game due to many of the negatives you pointed out. I don't like RTS that just keep spawning in stuff instead of having an actual enemy to tangible base your strategy around as any Pro RTS player will tell you, scout early and often because information is the greatest weapon. However if the enemy is just gonna spawn in stuff you either need to have played the mission before and figured out the script spawn rates or worst yet just expect anything if it's a random spawn. I also HATE campaigns that jump you back and forth between factions. I wanna play all the way through one factions story then go see the other faction's story campaign, not whip lash back and forth between them. Starcraft did this well, as each campaign was a different point in the overall story but they were still each self contained.
Wait.... can Space marines really not jump? Thought they were super soldiers in powered armour?
No not really, without the aid of Jump Packs they can jump a little more than the average human but not much higher, they can fall from extremely high heights without taking damage, which might give the illusion that they jumped a far distance but overall Space Marines need Jump Packs
The advantage and disadvantage of retrospectives is that issues are (hopefully) fixed, such as the inane skull system that was present on launch and now, thankfully removed.
As such, on launch some elites were completely locked behind skulls (earned by multiplayer or campaign) and then on top of this some elite doctrines were locked until you had got enough XP for that elite which was based on damage caused - this could be as significant as you are fighting an eldar who has all their passives and can relocate their base at Tier 1, whereas you, the new player have to get to Tier 3. You can unlock the units by playing the campaign and then the optimum strategy was to make a farming map where your unit attacked a constantly repaired building for an hour or so - super fun for new player. Frankly elites themselves are conceptually tricky as you really just want the early game elites as RTS tends to be won early.
The campaign is a mostly beat-for-beat rehash of DoW, but it was just made with a lack of care, exemplified by the snowy eldar mission shown in the video. Clearly all the webways are on timers which check if they are dead and if so respawn, leading to the same building being replaced a dozen times on the same spot with no builder required as it just spawns in. This sucks when you have units being attacked that should not be from a building that could not exist - I suspect this is the same thing as you mentioned with squads just appearing, which is fine if tied to a building or control point or something. The whole thing is also just very stop/start owing to slow regeneration rates and units having very few hitpoints if you are not a named character.
The Lack of 3D camera and weapons being timed powers were indicative of a backwards step from earlier titles, but then the structure of timed powers, one single moba map type and abilities that are visually clear but not very 40k, such as the whirlwind arm did just make you think they were going for esports money. It's key that DoW keeps changing and if this was called anything else then it may have been fine, but this felt like Relic making a game they wanted for an audience they wanted, but one which did not necessarily exist. It's not the worst RTS ever, but it's far below what anyone expected from Relic and Dawn of War at the time.
For my money, DoW 4 should take the base building of DoW1, but the engine improvements of DoW2 - namely destructible buildings, directional damage and fixed weapon angles so that eldar can be sneaky and do positional damage whilst and chaos can just run through walls. Hero customisation would be nice in terms of wargear. Then, frankly any plot that isn't 'Marines fight Orks, but oh no, it's really the Eldar and here come chaos' will be fine. Heck let's push the boat out and be an inquisitor or chaos warband with bickering.
Oh god I remember the skull and exp system. Having farm maps just to get into multiplayer was definitely not a great introduction for new players.
Holy hell, I heard your accent and immediately went "there are no Kiwis on youtube, what!?" Kia Ora!
There is a fine line between playerbase toxicity and constructive criticism on a massive scale. Players did not kill the game, bad core choices did (for me it was game design, for many - aesthetics). Pretending the feedback is great, sugarcoating, not changing the course of a ship moving towards an obvious storm did.
Relic could've (must have if you ask me) stopped "the unstoppable snowball of criticism" like a mature game studio, listened and changed the game. They removed the skull currency, they hastily added annihilation mode which clearly shows they realized that ignoring the criticisms is not gonna play itself out. And they should've continued fixing the the game. They should've released the necrons. They should've acted like game development veterans who they are. Instead they chickened out, clearly demonstrating that they are not about making a great game for the audience, but about making a profitable product. Many hyped games get review-bombed these days. Some recover, some go down. Elden Ring could recover to become GOTY, so did No-Man's Sky to name a few. DoW3 got abandoned.
Relic isn't at bad place like you described. It has a successful Age of Empires 4 under the belt and it's safe from being closed even if CoH3 will not be successful unless they do something really stupid.
Now to the main dish. Saying that DoW3 has better multiplayer than DoW2 in a "objective" analysis... uhhm? I will not go into mechanical details why it's not true, the objective numbers of active player base speak for themselves. There's more. In DoW2 retrospectives your main takeaway on multiplayer was "I'm bad at it and it's not for me" and you really didn't cover it despite people commenting about how important multiplayer is to that particular game. Now you're putting that half-baked failure of an experiment that DoW3 multiplayer is above the time-proven DoW2. Did you give a proper chance to both multiplayers to make such comparisons? With DoW2's Elite mod it's alive as ever and in this very video you pointed at the fact that DoW3's multiplayer is dead... Community-supported DoW2 is worse than deserted DoW3... what? Sorry, but you are biased and if you did try to give DoW2 multiplayer a proper chance, you'd see how much it is superior to DoW3.
I probably sound overly harsh (which I'm really not - imagine Morgan Freeman's voice reading what I wrote), but I hope you are able to see the points past the likely discomfort.
You've read this and others' criticisms. You can take them as Hello Games (when facing the backlash on release of No-Man's Sky) or you can take it as Relic (when facing the criticism on release of DoW3). Choice is yours.
Regardless, thank you for this vid. I actually agree on many of your points and appreciate the efforts.
They could not do anything to remove cartoonish style from the game. Which was main problem, so they desided to abandon it. And i think you cant do anything, if main focus and core failed.
Just because that it isn’t a terrible game doesn’t matter. It doesn’t feel or look like Dawn of War.
"proper base building" come on now dude its piss puddle shallow at best. Why am i having to build a building to make scouts ? Thats basic starting unit from the HQ or should be. Or having to be another building to get dev teams and another one to have ASM's ? lol
I've picked it up recently with a few friends, slap on a couple of mods and it's really fun to play. I'm sad to see that it was abandoned.
I played it. Its an average RTS, but utterly fails against the legacy of Dawn of War 1 and 2. Like the Star Wars sequels and Andromeda, the previous parts of the franchise were just too good to have a '"mediocre" entry. I played the campaign, and regretted the pre-order. It was worth half of what I paid. Cyberpunk is I think in a better category, though far from perfect.
If you stand on the shoulders of giants, "just barely okey" is not the quality your fans expect from you. If this was Battlesector or Armageddon or Gladius, it would have been okey.
They tried new things but failed with it. Dow 2 succeeded, 3 failed. The problem is not that it was different, but that it was a missed hit.
I really liked the Ork's goofy animations, they worked for orks, but only the orks. If this game was orks vs orks, like Dakka Squadron or Blood and Teef, than okey. But its not.
Its not a great strategy game, not a great tactical game, and I assume not a great moba.
It is now nothing more than wasted potential and sadness.
It has multilaser lascannons, shiny rainbows, and gaudy colour patterns like Fortnight or Overwatch, which are not suited for Warhammer 40k nor Dawn of War 1 or 2 in general, bar maybe an ork or eldar harlequins themed game.
Wtf is this even.
Great video friend and yes, I'm interested in more hypothetical videos for Dawn of war IV!
Thank you!
The Relic of DoW3 is a completely different company from the Relic that made DoW1/2 and Company of Heroes. Very few (if any) of the older devs were involved in its production, so I don't see any point in bringing the company's name up when comparing with older games.
You failed to mention the currency grind (skulls) the original game shipped with. People who had played the game longer had objective advantages over people who were just starting out. Understandable backlash against that system and they nuked it so even the devs agreed it was bullshit.
There was lots of forum drama with silencing criticism, so the community lost the good faith even before the game launched.
It's simply a boring mediocre game. There's no memorable story, gameplay is uninspired, visuals are barely an upgrade over DoW2 even let alone other games from 2017. It's so generic that you can't even create memes out of it.
It crushed me when the reviews started coming in, ending it's future before it began. I really enjoyed the game, I didn't like the bubble cover system though,. I personally didn't even notice or think about space marines flipping in terminator armour. And didn't see the claims of it being a mova as being very accurate. most rts have lanes or choke points etc. Anyway, my five cents... Good video! Ever hopeful of a revival, although, my trust has gone now with relic, when in my eyes, they simply buckled under pressure and gave up. (yes, I am sure there are reasons, but it 'could have' been saved.).
I really can't understand how you rated DoW2 as worse then DoW3.
Blows my mind.
Loved DoW1 when it released, but certain things I felt were really lacking in it, terrain / cover system / buildings, if it had a coversystem like in DoW2 for DoW1, it'd been amazing.
DoW2 had a little worse multiplayer battle imo then DoW1, but not by much, they were fun.
BUT DoW2 campaign is probobly the best strategy game campaign I'v ever played, it really brought me straight into the setting, I WAS THERE in the 40k universe, hard to explain.
I feel DoW3 messed up on soo many aspects, half of the things they messed up you gave them praise for, so don't really understand that either I suppose, but everyone has their own opinion ofc.
DoW3, Graphics made me puke, Units felt worthless, space marines were basically cannonfodder in trenches of WW1, the graphical effects were TOO MUCH, felt like watching a lightshow and you could almost not tell what was going on, there was almost no strategy mid combat like flanking for example, story felt bad compared to DoW1&2 it was lazy, Hated the Elite system, they felt TOO powerful compared to other units and like they were something ELSE, they were not normal units.
I loved that they brought inspiration from COH1-2 to DoW2, but DoW2 would have been better if it was just a bit more scaled up and had base building, like if squads went from 3 space marines to 6 or maybe even 10 like in DoW1, but if so make them have very FEW squads and making them feel like they MATTER!
You should want to keep them alive, retreat and heal up, reinforce.. and like you said, where did the moral mechanic go.
I had dreams of this becomming the best game ever when they first said it'd take inspiration from DoW1&2! thinking it'd be a great mix!
Take DoW2 combat mechanics, Cover System, Moral System (basically CoH style) but upscaling it a little bit closer to DoW1 unit sizes and base building and bigger maps.
Also, complete change of the resource points fighting for the worse, every fight was WAY to bunched up, DOW 1 & 2 often had you spread out over the battlefield, defending different points with a few select units and making sure you had the right ones at the right places! DoW3 most of the time just have you have 1 massive battle with everything, very boring.
And back to the graphics WHERE IS THE GRIMDARK? lol it's more cartoony styled proportions and colorful then childrens morning cartoons.
There was no Morale system in DOW2. That literally only existed in DoW1.
@@AztecUnshaven What? well don't call it moral them, but supression / moral, it made units become less and less effective untill basically unusuable and you had to order retreat.
Same mechanic as in COH1-2-3.
Overall it felt like an improvement over DOW1 morale system.
Sounds like a skill issue.
@@HighLanderPonyYT um what? xD
I was critical at first, but I really enjoyed the multiplayer of DoW 3. Almost as much as 2 when I got used to it. Personally, I like RTS games where the “time to kill” TTK is low if you have the right counter, as it makes your units feel powerful in a visceral way. Never got the same level of excitement out of Starcraft, personally.
"I ragged on the last stand but at least it was there" got me bro videos so entertaining so far and so far living up to the hype good work
My biggest issue with DoW3 was that Relic spat the dummy and took its ball home. Something we almost saw a repeat of with Age of Empires 4.
As for the question around the presentation - as for animations, NFI... but the high saturation and clean look - they said in an interview when showcasing the demo mission at a convention (its the one where Gabriel is on Acharon being reinforced by Salaria) that they took inspiration from the Warhammer 40k tabletop armies, the bright colours and paint jobs, particularly all the models loaned to them by GW painted by the 'Eavy Metal crew, which are all showcase/display mini's with bright and clean colours.
If they didn't made it into a moba it would've worked despite its faults.
The moment I realized it was gonna suck and I wasn't gonna buy it was when I saw the force field bubble cover system.
It's significantly worse than i thought it was. We have to thank sega for that.
Great synopsis dude! Appreciate all the hard work!
Thank you man, means a lot 😍
What happened is very simple. We wanted more and better. They gave us less and "focused on other things we'll hope you like".
For example, the Space Marines were lauded for being jack-of-all-trades units that could fit any situation. Relic has been stripping that away game after game.
Dawn of war had Marines that could take up a plasma, a flamer, a missile launcher, or a heavy bolter. You could mix and match whatever combo you want and up to 4 members of your squad could take a special weapon.
Same with scouts that could be kitted out with plasma guns, flamers, and snipers.
DoW 2 split the Marines and brought in devastators. It's lore-appropriate, so I'll take it. But only one special weapon per group. Bonus though is that devastators get las-cannons.
Scouts lost flamers and plasma guns, but got shotguns and kept snipers.
DoW 3 took more. Only the kill team got missile launchers. That effectively took the jack of all trades utility of the tactical marine away because they would struggle against armor. And if my memory serves, you couldn't change weapons once you bought it.
Scouts were now split into Scouts and sniper Scouts. An upgrade was taken away to basically pad out the space marine roster.
And it happened a few more times. Devastators and lascannon devastators. Tac Marines and the kill team (missile launchers)
There are a ton of Astartes that could have been used to fill the roster. Storm Shield ground assault Marines, centurions... hell, you could have given them the plasma cannon that was taken away.
They took away from the base to make the elites feel more special. The Elites made up for deficits they created. That's not good design in my eyes.
"Is Dawn of War 3 as BAD as you remember? "
- Zade
Absolutely. No doubt. It's actually worse.
Going to post a separate comment for what I would want from DOW4, mainly because this pleases the omnissiah's algorithm, secondly so people can upvote if they agree specifically, thirdly because my other comment is pretty bloated now. DOW4 is easy. All it had to be, was company of heroes 2, in 40k. That's it. CoH2 is already a mixture of elements from DoW1 and 2, but the best bits, rather than the worst bits. Large armies where every unit still has value and can be played well beyond its power level by a skilled player, grounded artstyle that respects the source material, fantastic animations, loads of content, mod support, cover system with well-designed maps that utilise it, weather conditions that affect gameplay, no heroes, no elites, no bullshit. Everything plays as it should and as you would expect. Literally everything in CoH2 would have translated well to DoW3, and that was all they had to do, and that is still the game that me and my friends want. And yet we're still stuck playing CoH2 because it is better than both DoWs despite the fact that we'd rather be playing with 40k units.
Saw the video now and it always glad to see Zade being a voice for good for rts, without the usual toxic approach a lot of people that enjoy the games have and ultimatly does more harm than good, I pre order Dow3 at the time because I had so much fun during the beta playing multiplayer, the battles were incredible fun, but remember feeling disappointed very fast when teh game actually released with the lack of modes. The hype was mismanaged sayig that the game was a mix of Dow 1 and 2, but at the time I knew that 3 was trying to be something of it's own and that was just marketing talk, but it hurted the game a lot. But it always makes senses DOw 3 be it's own thing, it's never going to fully capture both games fans trying to mix ideas of both games, and be its own game would not invalidade dow 1 and 2, and if players expected that dow 3 could have more chance. But the game itself being so barren of modes, something that Relic always does well than other rts companies, with such lack of single players content, campaign that while it's enjoyable it's a one shot of how linear it is. I defended a lot the "moba like" skirmish and mp battle but it's crazy they didn't added a Capture point system and anihilation mode at the start, this would have avoided so much trouble. But I feel the game was cut short very fast, even before cancelled they took so much time to release patches and hot fixes and most of those were very small, with the most significative is to remove the need to buy the doctrines, that was mistakenly accused of being pay-to-win for people that I think never played the game since it didn't have any miscrotransactions, but require a lot of play time to acquire the in game currency. At the foruns the devs talked a lot during the day of the cancellation that the Necrons was almost ready and have a very similar mechanic of Dow1 of ressurect and it was going to released with a big patch too but SEGA pulled teh plug, they never told if this was going to be an big expansion, dlc or free patch, but it was apparently very close of being ready to release that it hurts, it might have been what the game needed to stayed alive and get more content. Im glad that despite every issue Relic is staying with Coh3 and I hope the expansion they will release soon helps the game get more view, I dont want Coh3 follows the same path as Dow3, this would surely close Relic (they already lay off a bunch of people), and they are also doing good work with AoE 4, so maybe if Coh 3 thrives and Microsoft backing them for more AoE4 content, we might see Dow 4 in the future, but I dont have too much hope, but if another developer gets to make it, I hope it's not King Arts, all respect for Zade but I have so many issues with Iron Harvest and I would want DoW4 be more grand scale than another small tactics COh style. Also a personal gripe I had with Dow 3 for a long time ws the resource to get Heroes and the Unique Faction Powers that instead of making players commiting a lot of resources to put those powerful units and powers into game just was a glorified cooldown.
Well, COH3 is a failure too. So no more rts from relic.
Relic simply failed to identify that what keeps people so attracted to the two previous games even to this day (or they did, which is even more heartbreaking), is the attention to detail in the visual, sound, and overall artistic approach that fits the 40k setting like a glove, and thought they could get away with making it look more "modern" and appealing to broader audiences, and for that they couldn't and can never be forgiven.
They basically did what Amazon done to the LotR and Disney to pretty much anything they touch.
played it, hated every minute of it, i am sure those 5 people playing it online right now would disagreee
31:40 Suppression is in the game, just in a different form. Some units can suppress stuff in an AoE via doctrines or abilities. And sometimes, units get abilities that aren't technically called suppression but serve a similar function. Saying they're MIA is a stretch.
Aliens Vs. Predator: Extinction is still my favorite RTS. Great narrative and great gameplay. The fact it played so well on original Xbox with gamepad is the icing on the cake.
Yesssss
"Is DOW3 as bad as you remember"
Yes. summarised it in less than an hour for you.
This was a big video and took a LONG time to make - appreciate you all watching :) Big thanks to Broken Lines for sponsoring! It's now available for PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5 and Xbox Series X|S. Grab yours today! store.playstation.com/en-au/concept/10003665 / www.xbox.com/en-au/games/store/broken-lines/9pcr6czbnsp8 / store.steampowered.com/app/926580/Broken_Lines/
Thank you for this video. I think it nails the real issues with the game, but also acknowledges how it wasn't a unsalvageable mess or anything and had some interesting things. The fact that it's a middle ground between 1 and 2 in some aspects is also something that makes a lot of sense given your other 2 videos on the subject.
I was under the spell of reviews and I just never ended up even buying the game. This was until recently, and honestly I really enjoyed the game. Once you know it's not the same as it's predecessors you can enjoy it for what it is. Incredibly underrated and so unfortunate the fan base (including myself) dogged on it so hard it died
To each their own, but I thought it was straight dogshit.
I disagree.. even for $4, I still hated it
What I would enjoy for a new Dawn of War (or at least a new WH40k strategy game) would be customizable unit rosters, maybe even including choices for technologies or faction bonuses.
Considering a game like Crossfire: Legions (I own it and played a bit but admittably have litte knowledge of the game and the franchise in particular), the customizable roster doesn't feel that needed to me, as there aren't that many units to begin with. A franchise like WH40K (Star Wars in it's Legends continuity would be another good example) however feels like a huge toybox, out of which you usually can bring barely any toys to play. That's why I think a faction customization option would work there.
If you can choose which units you use for a faction that has as many options as many of WH40K's factions have, you may be able not only to create a lot of casual play fun, but also create loreful subfactions (or your own ones, of course).
Having the ability to play with the agile White Scars or the the more frontline-y Minotaurs instead of white or bronze Space Marines, Krieg attrition warfare or Elysian rapid assaults rather than just 50 Shades of Cadia (no offense, of course), would be possible due to the insane amount of different units this franchise has. You can have more exotic/ancient technology (like Grand Crusade/Horus Heresy Vehicles and Weapons), and you could be able to have, for example, the OG Astartes and the Primaris Marines in one game.
Obviously, there are a few factions that would benefit less from such a system. You cannot have all the cool stuff on game launch. And it would be hard to balance. Making it competitive would become harder as more units become available, so outside of creating set subfactions for ranked play or some such, I don't think that something of the scale I'm thinking of would be possible balance-wise.
But it could give the game a long lifespan, considering the amount of units or skins that could be added later on (be it as free updates or DLC).
Realistically, I don't think something like that will ever happen (not with WH40K or with any other franchise). But I can dream.
I have to say that I'm flipped with you on CnC4 and DoW3. Yeah I have my own unpopular opinions, CnC4 has a lot of flaws, and definitely caused issues with the old fan base but at its core was a OK game, given the player counts have dropped like a rock its much worse now than it was when I played when it released. I bought DoW3 recently on sale for really cheap just to give it a try, between the excessive handholding of the tutorial and the fact that normal units had no weight really weighed the experience down along with many of the same complaints you made, in the end after and hour and thirty minutes I wanted nothing more to do with it and got a refund of my $5. Tbh I might have put up with it if mods worked on the campaign, some of them looked like they really addressed my gameplay gripes but it's no good if it's multi-player only, what's more it seemed the multi-player would have many of the same problems as DoW2s multi-player, musical control points is awful.
I recently watched Bricky make a video on Darktide and described 4 criteria for a good Warhammer game, that is: Art, music, Voice acting, and power scaling. DoW really fails on all 4.
The art clash between trailer cutscene and game doesn't help, and niether does the saturation or the overly pretty models, overly pretty models only really works for Eldar as they can just fix the wraithbone with a bit of singing, Ork armor is made of litteral trash and Blood Ravens are using Hand me downs that have been in constant service for 10,000 years. They don't make new dreadnaughts they just toss your carcass out of the Pilot's Sarcouhagus and toss in a new half dead Space marine.
I don't remember the music and you didn't mention it, doesn't bode well.
Voice acting is underwhelming especially Gabriel Angelos.
Power scaling, Gabriel is 3x the size of his battle brothers, he does triple flips to leap at his enemy in terminator armor and slam a hammer into the ground. Even for a space marine Chapter master, Terminator armor is massive heavy gear, your not even going to be able to hop more than a a few centimeters off the ground with both legs, doing cartwheels is right out. The Heros are way stronger than they have any right to be. The Orks didn't really feel all that different when fighting either, far less than the Green Tide they are supposed to be. Eldar are supposed to hit like Trucks, but didn't feel like much of a threat.
So I do think it fails at being a good Warhammer game even if it might be a Decent Dawn of War.
I love it how in your videos you stay true to those classic, banger tunes from DoW1. Respect!