Sam Harris Confronts Ezra Klein on IQ Lies and Ideological Bias
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 เม.ย. 2018
- This is an excerpt from Sam Harris' podcast, Waking Up With Sam Harris, titled Identity & Honesty, and published on April 9 2018, in which Harris confronts Ezra Klein about his dishonest reporting on race, IQ, and the reputation of Charles Murray.
Sam Harris, Erza Klein, Charles Murray, IQ
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The whole debate can be summed up as follows:
Sam: Cold hard facts say genes matter.
Ezra: Check your privilege.
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP I assume you have read the bell Curve multiple times correct ?
You omitted the part where Sam throws a tantrum and accuses Ezra of bad faith for attributing bad faith Sam, which Ezra never does.
L B Flynn wasn’t definitive in his statement, I advise you listen to it again.
There is a reason for that. Klein is and always has been a complete lightweight.
Much like Vox.
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP:
If Blacks really are as smart as Asians then they should be as successful as Asians. Money doesn't care about skin color. Science merely confirms what is obvious to everybody. It's not racism holding people back. It sucks I know, but if you want to solve problems you need to know what the facts are. Otherwise you'll never solve anything and black people will complain about being oppressed forever and ever, especially in today's world where IQ matters more than anything.
tl;dr: As a black man, I can recognize the trepidation surrounding the discussion of IQ as it relates to race but believe it is still an important discussion to have and commend Sam giving it a platform. Charles’s political agenda is irrelevant and as Sam says, a separate discussion from the empirical merit of his and his co authors finding. Ezra means well but still comes off as a rabid virtue signaler, who is defending a people who can defend themselves.
About a week ago a friend of mine who listens to Waking Up, asked me if I had ever listened to Sam's podcast with Charles. We are both black by the way. I listen to Sam’s podcast but this was an older episode and I hadn't gone back that far yet. He said it was extremely interesting, yet weird to hear, being that as a black man, he was a part of a group of people alleged to sit in deviation below the average IQ. I decided to listen to it in its entirety and I share that feeling. First, let me say that Sam Harris is extremely important to me. I think it is mind's like his, who are unapologetically dedicated to questioning ideas and observing their merit (or lack thereof), even when those ideas are uncomfortable, that make the world a better place. It is VERY HARD to talk about topics like this without your rhetoric being perceived as somehow laden with bigotry and prejudice, so there is an immense respect from me in that regard. Science does not care about your political affiliation, your skin color, your sexual preference, your favorite food, etc. In its methods, you find cold truth and that is why it is so important.
The fact is IQ has become an even larger factor in success AND survival, just as Sam and Charles echoed in their meeting. In fact, it is not even enough to be smart anymore. You must excel at what you do, both in talent and grit, to maintain even a modicum of comfortability in most cases. This means we are only doing ourselves a disservice by shying away from the science behind our intelligence, even if it seems to bring with it incendiary fallout. Ezra means well, and I agree with some of what he says, the conversation being had is much bigger than us African Americans, or Hispanics or Asians, and any other segment of society. Our understanding of our intelligence factor, the way is averages out among different groups, and what is means as a whole to our society is vital. With all that said, I would implore the Caucasian listeners to at least attempt to understand where the fear or trepidation, on the part of minority populations and their “defenders”, lies. Even I, who does not typically jump to conclusions of racism and prejudice, feel a certain uneasiness when I hear of a book written by a white man citing my race, and thus me, as intellectually inferior. But my immediate reaction is not to scream racist, but to rather take a close look at the evidence and try to understand it. I cannot know if Charles Murray is indeed some bigot with an agenda. He may be, he may not be. But what stands to my attention is his and his co author’s finding, and whether THEY are legitimate. And if so, where do we go from there, if we go anywhere at all? There are true and legitimate implications from this kind of research, the least of all being that you won't get hired by a prospective employer because of the Race -> IQ relationship. Newsflash: A racist employer has already made that decision, they don't need scientific backing. More importantly, we can prioritize scaffolding programs which encourage early STEM introductions in communities rich with children who fit among groups that may not typically have the innate computation skills to adopt their topics. We can stop looking at Computer Science as a Asian, Indian, white thing, and start recognizing a real and quantifiable divide. Then start filling it.
Ill end with this. I am a junior software developer by trade, and while I do not make a lot of money, I am comfortable. I have never saw myself as really all that intelligent, but rather hard working enough to compensate where my talent stops. In fact, I believe that on an IQ test, I likely would not score all that high. Programming is not often easy, but I work hard and spend no time ruminating over what I did or did not get from a genetic lottery. Regardless of where you sit on the IQ scale, remember ethic is vital.
Taaref Malou Very well written thoughts. It would be great if you could expand on these and/or make a TH-cam video about them. I'm afraid they will get lost in this comment section.
@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. if you look at his name you can tell he is black
@@rigsby86Harris and Murray are devil's? Lmfao Ezra is a half rate activist journalist that's completely out of his league and compensates for it with pointless word salad and his smug little bitch attitude.
@@rigsby86 and anyone using the term "woke" should just stop talking about how intelligent they are.
@Taaref Malou - I have been watching talks/presentations about Psychopathy for reasons entirely unrelated to this discussion. One particular talk by Dr. James Fallon concerned his discovery of his own Psychopathy via fMRI. He also discussed his genealogy, as it seems that he has several murderers in his ancestry, including Lizzie Borden.
Now, molecular biologists and geneticists have found that trauma (real trauma, not the Uni "triggered by speech" horseshit) can be encoded via methylation into a genome, contributing to if not precipitating Cluster B personality disorders, and this recoding is of course heritable. A surprising result of his (and his colleagues') research is that this recoding can possibly somehow skip not just one generation but two, to reappear decades later as Psychopathy, Borderline, Antisocial, and other Personality disorders.
Assuming that such is the case (and I consider such to be plausible), contemplate the multigenerational trauma experienced by the overwhelming majority of Black Americans, trauma which did not end with the Emancipation Proclamation or with the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Generally speaking , Cluster B disorders tend to relegate those who are afflicted with them to the lower socioeconomic strata of society. And ,generally speaking , those who are in the lower strata tend to have inadequate nutrition, a primary cause of developmental disabilities.
My thesis is that, if the research described in "The Bell Curve" is scientifically valid AND true (an argument can be valid and still be false), then the aggregate IQ variance is both genetic AND environmental. The argument that such variance is strictly environmental cannot be sustained.
I would argue that cutting social programs is exactly the WRONG thing to do, particularly with respect to neonatal and developmental nutrition. Doing such would leave an entire generation of impoverished children, already at risk of obsolescence because of the "Cognition Gap", in danger of becoming completely superfluous due to the lack of adequate nutrition caused by the sociopathy of the Oligarchy.
How does Ezra use so many words to say nothing
doctor in political correctness? or just call it sophistry
Anyone who listens to this entire exchange and only sides with Harris wasn’t objective in the slightest
Albert Kim no, you’re just wrong.
Journalism 101
Buck Mulligan How?
Sam: We’re just talking about science
Ezra: Yeah but it’s offensive.
Sam: It probably is, but can we just talk about it?
Ezra: Well you didn’t discuss why there is a difference
Sam: Yeah we were just discussing science. Now I have to defend myself because you painted me as a racist.
That’s about it..
Perfect. You caught the essence of Ezra's position right there. Ezra's is saying that you can't offend me with science. Oh god help us … he's nearly as bad as the Pope was in the middle ages but thinks he is so modern because he is defending black people. That was so 60's Ezra. Most people now think that was a terrible thing that happened and would not tolerate a repeat. Science is science. If it doesn't mesh with your views that is an indication there is something wrong with your views. Move to the 2019's already.
Don't you wish they would stop having a pissing contest of play on words and just say it lol? If I were one of these people under attack when I know I haven't done anyone wrong, just call the shit out clearly, plainly, calmly, don't allow this a walk-around-the-circle conversation.
Sam speaking facts. Ezra speaks “My truth.” Coward. Call’s Sam “racialist.” At the very least, Ezra, have the courage of your convictions. Delusions.
@@captainron4924 He did.
The thing is, from a policy perspective, it doesn't really matter that much why there's a difference.
Most people can look at the IQ differentials and understand the need to support anything that will elevate low IQ among all groups, particularly minorities. Things like better pre-natal care, better infant/childhood nutrition, K-12 education, etc.
At the same time, the IQ differentials should help us understand why seeking a strict equality of outcomes, through Affirmative Action (racial preferences) or anything else, is wrongheaded.
Seeking to reduce the number of Asians/Jews in mathematics/science departments simply to create more proportional representation there, or anywhere else, is clearly a terrible idea.
Ezra is unbearably smug
when was he convicted of libel ?
If someone is never convicted of murder, you can state with 100% certainty they are not a murderer.
Right back @ you.
Sam Harris is not beyond a bit of smugness himself
+zoot soot Good point. He's the zero-point for sub-genius intellectual smugness. Utterly unremarkable as a scientist or philosopher yet has an ego that easily places him in proximity to real geniuses.
That up-speaking condescension in Klein's voice is infuriating to listen to for an extended period of time.
so true!!! I am amazed Sam keeps his cool.
OMG I was going to comment the exact same thing. That tone of superiority is so grating!!!
Because he knows more than Harris.
@@superlifer1732 lol nope
@@superlifer1732 He does not, and this can all be verified. Even if he did, which he demonstrably, factually does not, it doesn't justify or explain the upspeak. The upspeak is just one of many indicators of Klein's disingenuous bad-faith approach, his pretentiousness, and his nasty little attitude. He's not engaged in a legitimate debate - he literally announced in the beginning that he's 'framing' the discussion. He's just stonewalling Harris and pretending to be reasonable. He's not actually listening or logically responding to any of these points, it's all politics and PR for the sake of announcing his virtue and righteousness.
"two white guys talking." Good heavens. Once I hearEzra say that, I know what I'm in for.
John Bosquet-Morra Ezra Klein is white presenting, but he has his own tribe to which he belongs.
two White guys talking... neither of whom are White.
It's peculiar how it's these certain non-Whites who are always so keen to draw attention to their "whiteness", exclusively towards "self"-derogatory ends.
You had to give consideration to things that might make you feel uncomfortable?
Thought the exact same thing. Sam should have just said, “You know what? We should just stop here then. Take care Ezra”
Vox is the laughing stock of journalism.
I don’t know...Buzzfeed is proving to be a good competitor
@@moghx2 true true 🤔🖖
BionaryDeath So is Slate, Buzzfeed, huffpo etc.
they are runner up to vice
Buzzfeed is worse just because of its influence in the UK and abroad... right now they're perpetuating political violence against right wingers running for office for MEP. Pieces of shit like Mark Distephano. Vox, Vice, Verge, Vrhi, Vuhsibol, and all the other V-cunts come in second.
Key difference here between Sam and Ezra. Sam only accuses Ezra for things he's said. Ezra accuses Sam of having specific thoughts and tries to discredit his character in various subtle ways.
insightful. thanks for pointing out what is going on here.
That is a great, insightful call-out. Sam is talking science, Ezra is talking policy. Sam is discussing data and facts, Ezra makes pretentious policy arguments.
Ezra's take on Sam's bias is weak, akin to accusing Fire Fighters to be no better than Arsonists because the fire fighters are obsessed with fire...smh
Charles Murray is not a firefighter
@Major Coats I am not a leftist
@Major Coats I guess from 10 words you have me all figured out. You should run for office. I'd vote for you!
@@meditation4632 Thank you, Captain Obvious.
Sam Harris wasn’t putting out the fire but watched the building crumble
1. Harris asks what was unfair.
2. Klein declares he wishes to frame the conversation. (Not needed, but why not?)
3. Klein goes on explaining how Harris sees Murray as having suffered similar character assassination as Harris himself has. (Which is true, in both the sense that Harris has been similarly treated and that it is character assassination.)
4. Klein states that, because of Harris's audience size, it is dangerous to be spreading his ideas. (Dangerous to whom or why is not explained.)
5. Harris acknowledges that he may have wrongly attributed bad faith to Klein. (He may have been correct, but he acknowledged his fallibility.)
6. Harris states that Klein's views are biased by his political views. (Which is true.)
7. Harris says he didn't preface the talk with Murray because he saw it as totally unnecessary virtue signaling. He regrets that.
8. Klein acknowledges that Harris is not racist. (Which is true.)
9. Klein criticizes the Harris for not speaking about the effect of racism on the IQ of Blacks in the US. (Which is both untrue and pointless.)
10. Klein says Murray uses his books to push his ideas into public discourse and attacks Murray's views on social policy.
11. Harris states that Klein is conflating Murray's view on policy and the science Murray was able to do. (Which, he is.)
12. Harris claims Klein has been extremely unfair, to both he and Murray, and cites an article Klein has written that directly accuses Harris and Murray of championing anti-black science. (Which Klein absolutely did and it was unfair.)
13. Klein then trys to say he doesn't want Murray silenced. He just wants Murray to besilenceed on this topic.
14. Klein then gets interrupted by Harris because Harris wants to preempt another conflation of policy and science. (Which he was correct to do.)
15. Klein then states he's let Harris have his say and that Harris is long-winded, too. (Klein is retardedly long-winded. Far worse than Harris.)
16. Klein then lectures Harris about Harris calling things what they are.
17. Harris then re-explains how Klein is conflating science and policy based on that science.
18. Harris explains he is a anti-racist, just as Klein in.
19. Harris declares racial equality should be the goal of a non-racist.
20. Klein accuses Harris of being a hypocrite about accusing him of confirmation bias.
21. Klein talks about Harris's hatred of identity politics biasing Harris's view.
22. Harris equates hating identity politics to agreeing with MLK on judging a person by their character, rather than skin color. (Which is sound.)
23. Klein accuses Harris of being a hypocrite again, because he says Harris is using identity politics, himself. Klein bases this on claim that Harris is anti-antiracist. (This is nonsensical because the irrationally of anti-racist people looking for racists is still irrationality.)
24. Klein then overtly accuses Harris of unaware of racial problems because he has had only 2 black guests. And, suggests Harris simply needs to speak to more black people. (This has no bearing on whether Charles Murray did good science. Irrelevant and irrationally anti-racist.)
46 min. Will continue.
Love your work keep it up
This was an excellent exegesis.
That was an excellent _Peer_ Review, Daniel.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😎
I'll show myself out ...
You are wrong about #9, Sam himself suggests that environmental factors (being subjected to racism, for instance) plays a role in determination of IQ.
Otherwise, you're pretty spot on
Written like an L3 case brief. Bravo! 😉
Sam is playing a truth game and Ezra is playing a power game. Science versus politics plain and simple.
He doesn't sound very powerful. Sounds like a worm.
I'm starting to see that politics is worse than religion. Religion is filled with people who argue for what they actually believe in their books, while politicians are people who argue for stuff they don't believe in.
I respectfully disagree. I enjoy both of these guys and agree with 90% of what each man said in this episode. I believe they’re both extraordinarily bright, articulate, critical thinkers. I’m politically more aligned with Sam, but I agree with Ezra that Sam is sometimes overly defensive about criticism.
I’m not a fan of either of them. That doesn’t mean they both can’t be right about certain things though. Ezra is a politically motivated sophist. He’s condescending to guests; yet, appealing to low IQ viewers who get emotional satisfaction watching him confuse the interviewee with sophistry, and disingenuous arguments. I watch a lot of his debates, plus he’s known for this. I don’t know you, so I am not including you in that assessment. I understand there’s a lot of intelligent people who can watch his debates and agree with some of his points and disagree with others, so I’m not including either one of us in that.
I'm black, and this ezra clown seems to be invested in blacks remaining victims. Its nauseating.
ezra is icky
Thanks... you make a great point. The left has a vested interest in poverty and oppression. Without both of these things, they have no reason to exist. We can all agree that America has a racist history full of discrimination and segregation. Our antidote to that was to actually follow and apply the Constitution as it was written. I can't pretend that I know what it is like to live as a minority in this country, but I can say that telling them that they cannot succeed because of their skin color is not very productive. If anything it's counterproductive. I wouldn't raise my children and tell them that there's no point of trying because they're at a disadvantage.
@@derricktarver6100 by now we have to fix ourselves. We're free, we have a choice.
Np
No, you are not. Little liar.
And I'm a Kenyan anti-colonialist.
Oh god.. Ezra used the "science has been wrong before" fallacy. This shows a complete misunderstanding of the process of science. The process of science ATTENUATES the errors within its theories. As Isaac Asimov put it, "When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Ezra "why would I want keyhole surgery when bloodletting was so ineffective?" Klein.
The Earth is FLAT so that makes your comment the wrongest of all.
Tony FromCharlotte LOL Good one!
It's a fallacy that Christians used to use a lot. It's fascinating to see the leftists now acting like Christians, doing the exact same things that they used to ridicule Christians for.
It seems people get irrational whenever science contradicts their ideology, no matter what their ideology is. I have a lot of respect for Sam Harris, he seems to honestly be searching for what is true. That's how it should be (the only disadvantage I can think of is that if the entire population did that, we might be changing our ideologies significantly every few years leading to a lot of cultural instability).
I Ss I agree, although regarding your last bit, what type of cultural instabilities are you imagining? The religious community seems far more unstable to me than the scientific community. The religious community is driven by ideology, whereas in the science community, truth is the focus.
Ezra's voice = nails on a chalkboard. It's not the words, it's the smug inflections.... Also the words..
I made it three sentences in and thought.
This dude comes across as the single most condescending person I have ever heard. His cadence of speech says, “ I’m more educated than you, so you stupid person, just listen to my big words.” Like stereotyped high collar elites of the 1800s.
This 1000%. This type of inflection is an automatic indication of someone with hard left interpretations.
@@joshualyons4121 Sam Harris is left as well. That tone by Ezra Klein sounds like privilege and condescension
I got as far as 40:40 (with some fast-forwarding through EK’s monologues) until EK said “that’s *super* helpful.” He speaks like a teenage girl - without the reason and intelligence of a teenage girl.
Not to mention the vocal fry noises.
"You don't give short answers, yourself." But he gives relevant answers, Ezra. Smug sophist.
Lol exactly. Quality over quantity.
thats only partially true. he also gish gallop just at a slower pace. same point.
Verbal equity!!!!!!
The issue wasn't length of response either. This is a classic way Klein debates. Harris saw a long tirade about irrelevant "role of government" debates Murray had in an earlier book. Murray called for lower taxes. So that's what Klein is upset about. Harris advocates for higher taxes, more centralized gov't, more liberal social policies. But Klein was dragging Harris into that discussion. Which was 100% irrelevant.
46:58
Ezra was extremely obnoxious and drops repeated non-sequitur's to a VERY simple point Sam was trying to address.
Please explain, in any way shape or form that Sam Harris has committed bigotry. Do so without lies and stretching what he has personally said. I'll wait.
Sam Harris: "A 12 point environmental difference and a -2 genetic difference?? Sure that's possible but we want to know what's plausible..." And like that he dismisses the the idea that black people could be genetically smarter than white people because come on Ezra we are having a serious conversation here...
Face it Muck, harris is either a maniac or a dishonest actor, or flat out dumb
@justin How is that statement remotely bigoted.
Face it Justin, you guys have to twist and misconstrue the statements he makes to fit an outcry agenda that doesn't like what facts state because it is perceived as a hindrance to progress when it doesn't need to be.
Reduction of the points of conflict:
Point: Data strongly suggests that mean differences are both environmental and genetic
Ezra response: What about environmental causes?? 😣
Point: To defame people who make strong scientific cases based on sound interpretation of the data is immoral and counterproductive
Ezra response: Don't be so sensitive to being mischaracterized! What about the historical and current pain of others?
Now if you think those responses are relevant, you aren't logical.
Not even close. Especially the last one. Your tolerance to being slandered should not and cannot be measured by the physical pain of someone else's ancestor or the inequities of random groups. And if it were the case we would need to come up with a calculus to measure the pain values of a granddaughter of a holocaust survivor vs. a middle class college-educated Hispanic vs. a Montana farmboy with an abusive alcoholic father and no access to rich suburban education. It's madness. Sam doesn't need to make a mythical group chart of misfortune and find out where he falls before deciding to be offended by being misrepresented.
logic and reason are tools not features doug
Environmental causes are hardly equal if you consider: Slavery, Lynching, Jim Crow, Redlining & Economic Marginalization. "But the data" Harris says.
yup exactly. Harris got mercd in this discussion. The guy is a moron who only has the "reach" that he does because he has rich parents
you know who disagrees with you? Richard Haier. He has been the editor-in-chief of the journal Intelligence since 2016. He is also the man who wrote those pieces in Quillette that Vox "refused" to publish defending Sam Harris. His write up is entitled "Sam Harris And Ezra Klein Finally Discuss Human Intelligence Without Calling Names."
thefederalist.com/2018/04/10/sam-harris-ezra-klein-finally-discuss-human-intelligence-without-calling-names/
Also, your fantasy that if you took Klein seriously you would need to "come up with a calculus to measure the pain values" of disparate groups/individuals is completely baseless. It's vaguely similar to those who criticize utilitarianism and say it cannot succeed as a moral philosophy unless we construct a complete Hedonistic Calculus.
As Haier points out: "The moral outrage many expressed after the Harris/Murray podcast, mostly based on a false reading or misreading of “The Bell Curve,” does not bode well for discussions to come. Harris, Andrew Sullivan, and David Reich have tried to make the case that such discussions are necessary and timely. *It won’t be easy, however, because the concerns about historical and political context Klein raises are real.*"
Yeah, not his best. Not a big fan of Klein, but it was pretty disingenuous of Harris to try to pull the Flynn card, and Klein had literally just spoken to Flynn, and it did not jive with what Harris claimed. There is a real discussion to be had here, but to claim that the data is clearly explaining that there is a heritable difference is just not true. The debate is one that should be had, but what you have here are two agenda pushers.
Is this conversation a test to see if Sam will ever hit soneone in the face?
This made me LOL more than anything under this video. ROFLMAO.
It's a test to see how much I love my phone.
Sam Harris, as much as I respect him is wrong on this one. Charles Murray and his nature over nurture when it comes to IQ flys in the face of recent scientific findings in fields like epigenetics. Research it don’t take my word for it. The fact is there is more genetic variation within so called racial groups than between. This is mainly because race is a false dichotomy. It puts people of different populations together based off of superficial traits like skin color. Are you kidding me? No wonder the results don’t follow. It’s bad science.
This guy ezra is dishonest, he doesnt want to see anything from anyones perspective, he just wants you to be a good little boy and listen to him, he clearly knows whats best for all of us.
@@eb60lp nobody is saying skin color makes the difference. The operative trait is not skin color, but culture. Skin color just happens to be the most visible signal of which culture you belong to (on average of course).
Harris just spent over an hour trying to explain to what sounds like a 16 year old why it's not a good idea to use emotion to justify public policy decisions. Unbelievable.
You’re being overly emotional
"Yeahs let's use racist pseudoscience to set policy instead!"
@@NoTengoIdeaGuey that's just ignorant
@@krisvq that's the alternative to using "emotion" to determine policy.
Charles Murray is a racist advocate for destroying the welfare state.
Jake Mobley
If your suggestion is that IQ research is “racist pseudoscience”, we’re gonna need a big fat citation for that one chief.
While Sam's original email exchange with Ezra was a bit heated and inexcusable...this podcast proves that Sam was correct on Ezra Klein. Ezra Klein was outclassed and pretty much has no response other than "my identity politics is better than yours because you supported Murray".
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP
Sorry to say but racism does not invalidate an argument. The only way to disprove an argument is to tackle it. Read the Bellcurve, research, find some evidence to disprove it and do it.
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP, IQ data isn't random numbers, people takes tests to estimate their intelligence. The mean values come out different for each race. The results have been replicated many times.
I think it is more hereditary than environmental, because the results are similar whether they're done in Sweden, US, South Africa, and the results are also similar 50 years ago to how they are today. So people can be raised in different cultures and different environments and their mean IQs stay roughly the same.
And science is not a "white man" thing, East Asians, Arabs, Indians, Jews, etc. all play a part in the world of science. I would argue Ashkenazi Jews play a bigger role than whites at the moment.
If you want to debunk IQ differences by race, my suggestion would be to try and devise your own intelligence tests. Intelligence tests similar to the IQ test where your level of education won't matter.
Data from studies on British GCSE (which are highly g-loaded and have about a 0.7 correlation with IQ, the same as the SAT, which has been used as an IQ proxy by leading hereditarian researchers like Jensen) test takers found that the children of unmixed African immigrants scored as well or better than British whites. The predictable response here is to say that the immigrants were highly selected. In fact, that's irrelevant. Especially because the children were unmixed, there's no conceivable way we would not have observed regression to the mean of the native stock population if the mainline hereditarian hypothesis were true. Again, the important point is not that the immigrants' children scored as well as British whites, *it's that they did not regress to their parents' native population's mean (and in fact, moved in the opposite direction).* Further data to dispel the inevitable "heritablity is more strongly express at a later age" counter: dera.ioe.ac.uk/7916/1/DCSF-RR029.pdf
The way prominent hereditarian intellectuals, like Dr. James Thompson of University College London, have handled this data, is by granting Igbos and Yorubas (especially Igbos) from Nigeria special, exceptional genetic status. Even if that were the case, such a concession annihilates the evolutionary psychology arguments having to do with cold weather agriculture and the genetic argument that Neanderthal hybridization was essential (which are the only positions that have significant political potency when discussing immigration; all genetic further findings may as well be moot when an Igbo Nigerian looks pretty much indistinguishable from a Congolese to the average white American).
@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. So what you're saying is that it's white peoples fault that you're stupid? Quite stupid in fact.
@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. Nope. They just see an angry , racist, black man. Just like most racists in this country, black .
I’m a black dude. Ezra doesn’t know anything about black life. He just tryin to look good; Vox got him whipped... shit’s pathetic. Sam is a solid guy. Very smart and misunderstood. Vox trying to get paid off his reputation.
bignose90 fake acount troll alert*
Damn. How will I ever go on? Exposed for the fraud I am. Don’t mess with Mo’s boiii. Genius detective work.
bignose90 Thnx ^^
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP say what??!! If I’m not black, then you sir must also not be black. And since we are both not black... then what’s going on??? I’m dizzy.
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP I like your name. Now, we are back to where we started. We are both black again, according to your logic :)
Never until now have I heard someone with a punchable voice.
It's called eighteen bitchy girl voice.
As a working-class-poor white man, who works 2 jobs and 50hrs per week and cant afford to buy a house, I am beyond sick of being told by the white middle classes (like this Ezra guy) that not only am i privileged, but i am also inherently and irredeemably racist 😒😒
And if i was a black man in the same position id also be more than sick of these same middle class whites unwantedly taking my side in an arguement that THEY started on my behalf!! 😒
Klein isn't Middle class. He's rich and trying to profit by engaging in an argument, on behalf of another group, that he has no credibility in.
Given the kind of society we live in, are raised and socialised in, why would we not have racial biases and prejudices that would directly, and indirectly, inform moralised preferential treatment of whites over blacks? It's perfectly reasonable to conclude that if one is shaped by their environment, and the environment is morally preferential of one ethnicity at the expense of another then one will be morally preferential of one ethnicity at the expense of another. So, you'd have to disseminate this and either refute premise: a) that the environment does not shape our moral preferences; b) that our moral preferences do not influence our treatment of others; and/or c) the environment is not morally preferential..... which premise would you like to tackle in the syllogism first? I am not trying to be edgy or "destroy" you with "facts and logic". If you care to listen to reasons(this is what to be reasonable means) then I invite you to reasons for your consideration. Hopefully you are well, and respond to my invitation.
@@thatsterroristsbro7855 i think the most complete answer is C) our society isn't morally preferential based on race
@@thatsterroristsbro7855 I don’t think the commenter is debating on the effects of environment on a person. Although they might be and as such we have to acknowledge other influences in our environment along with race. And as Sam Harris discusses, this is beside the point for him. His concern is that when you go looking for racist answers to questions then you run the danger of ‘finding’ them everywhere because the starting point biases the interpretation of the data. And with a socially charged ‘environment’ then true conversation about the data is lost in favor of trendy scholarship. And this reality can, not will, lead to further harm rather than solving issues of race. I believe John McWhorter puts it much more succinctly than myself. Not arguing here, but inputting Sam’s point here.
Stop whining.
Klein lies about what Harris says moments after hearing it.
''So what you're saying is ...''
Strawmanning... one of the little tricks used by people who either don't have enough brain cells to develop their own solid argument or they realise that their argument lacks merit. One of SJW favourites. If at all, sensible people use steelmanning, but you won't find any of those among the leftards, of course.
I find it so amusing that they so politely and calmly insult each other. Sam less so, as he just keeps proving Ezra is misrepresenting him. Ezra, just keeps insisting everybody is a racist instead of himself. Also, Sam keeps saying stop conflating social policies with racial bias and Ezra's response is to just keep spouting the same thing over and over. Hard to respect anyone who have made up their mind and doesn't at least acknowledge the other side.
it is true what the internet says about arguing with a stupid person, it's like playing chess with a pigeon.
"In the interest of time and basic human sanity..." HAHHAHAHAHA! Sam is savage.
Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. I don't think sam harris people care about personally expirienced racial injustice. Sam Harris is just an echo of their pre-existing belief and anything other than that is "biased/identity politics/political correctness" if it wasn't then they would listen to people other than their parroting opinions
i really dont think so as harris continously implies that klein is doing everything in bad faith
ya but i never said accusing someone of bad faith is bad on the part of the accuser, i was merely stating that sam harris made the accusation towards klein multiple times unlike klein who gave him the benefit of the doubt in response to the first comment
Summary of Ezra Klein argument; "do not speak the truth, if it may hurt someone's feelings".
Dude Ezra is snowballing Sam. Ezra wrestles the focus from UBI and the continuance of affirmative action by intimating social spending will lose Billions under UBI. Never mind the fact that this prognosis only comes through Murray's conception of the form UBI takes. Ezra's opposed to the reality that UBI will result, unquestionably, in a large increase in so-called "social spending." He wants to keep Sam mired in the Murray mess. Sam, doesn't seem to catch onto this. It's disturbing that Ezra tells Sam white guys aren't positioned to speak about these things. The question of inequality concerns as many white people as it does black people. The debate ought to be over how we implement UBI in addition to maintaining affirmative action efforts. Ezra is obfuscating, Sam shouldn't have him on again.
Do you not understand how important his thoughts are
Dwayne Thomas No dumb ass
He doesn't seem to have any issues by manipulating people using anger. I do think he genuinely cares more about hurt feelings than Sam.
The other and perhaps more fundamental problem in this discussion between Harris and Ezra is that Ezra is keen to keep throwing American history at Harris without realising that the science being discussed is also true and accurate OUTSIDE the US. Even in countries such as Ethiopia that has not experienced slavery at all in its entire history. The truth is that these differences are real and are backed by the science.
I can actually HEAR the soy in Ezra Klein's voice.
“I’VE GIVEN YOU TIME TO SPEAK SAM”
Lmao seriously
Soyciopath
Michael Lamont underrated comment
Joanne Wardell Feminist?
Ezra Klein is a sophist.
Why.
Ship of Theseus, Post Hoc ergo Propter Hoc, Circular Argument, Weasel Words
It pays the bills.
Good call
Youre a stephan molyneux listener arent you? im able to tell so easily based on vocabulary and word use.
I believe Bulverism is a word to describe presupposing someone is wrong and then explaining the psychological reason why they are wrong. Klein immediately starts with appeals to emotion, talking about where Harris' empathy lies. This is as if to suggest that Sam Harris is undeniably wrong but the reason he is wrong is some dark hidden sympathy for bigotry.
Ezra : you have 120 episodes..... I may be wrong
SH : It's amazing you find this relevant. But go ahead.....
Freaking loved that part "It's amazing you find this relevant", ROFLMAO.
He already knew where he was going... 😂😂😂
And then showed why it was relevant. Good stuff. Sam Harris simply doesnt invite black people into his show if he can avoid it.
@@matthewharris8819 it’s amazing you could have this take. It really shows the divide in IQ
@@jackjurphy5020 facts are facts. Sam Harris pushes debunked race science and avoids having black people on his show. Draw your own conclusions.
This is what I learned from listening: There are very few people more disingenuous than Ezra Klein
Zachary Rodrigues
The greatest secret to being disingenuous is to believe you never deceive anyone.
To fool the masses, first you must fool yourself.
After that, you must read.
Read anything that upholds your lies.
After that, articulate your delusions so well that even those that disagree to your argument must believe your conviction.
Finally, strategize.
The hardest part about being disingenuous is keeping up with your own lies over time.
The best and most sane way to cover yourself from your own traps is to lie as little as possible by saying as little as possible.
Emotional pleading, begging the question, non sequitors, misdirection, shifting the burden of proof, anything that keeps you from saying something that makes you look bad.
People live their whole lives lying without saying a word.
Exposing their deceit is the only way to rout it out.
Sorry for the rant.
@@nicholashernandez4611 Michael Eric Dyson in a nutshell.
So is he in the terlet or toilet hehe? An Archie Bunker quip.
Thats qhat ypu got from this.....perhaps listen again???
Davon Weeks perhaps learn to spell
This is amazing. I love when people who think they're on Sam's level get demolished when they're face-to-face with the man.
It's like Ezra is arguing against a ghost of Sam that Ezra himself conjured up.
That's called a straw man identity attack.
@@publius4009 you're conflating straw man and ad hominem, these are discrete logical fallacies
@@mattytrane No, ad hominem is to insult the individual. Straw man is to attack an argument that is similar but not identical to the one posed by Sam in this case.
Wow, I have a lot more respect for Harris after listening to this dialogue
You didn't before? Why not?
@Marie Libra Socialism is an interesting framework, once a large enough amount of the workforce is made redundant through automation there won't be a requirement for capitalism. Only when the technology is advanced enough will we have a life of freedom and the choice to spend our days learning or living as we choose.
@Marie Libra no offence taken. I wouldn't say it's evil in the purest philosophy, I think a great many demagogues in history have wielded it to extract votes while dictators have hidden behind to pacify their subjects. Obviously, capitalism is the stick which drives human advancement in a sort of Darwinist method, however if the balance does not keep inching toward socialism then we will have unrest by those left (pun intended) behind.
@Marie Libra again, no offence taken however allow me to not be combative: I did stipulate a redundant workforce due to technology, ie: you cannot steal someone's work if they have not worked. Once capitalism is redundant (no one works a job), where to from there?
@Marie Libra With a redundant workforce who is buying your product?
On A Topic Of Studied Science:
“You didn’t talk about Jim Crow or Racism”
Yes...because the topic was on scientific data and observation...
Brad Popwell Precisely! Thank you.
You can not adress race in the US without adressing white people's historical oppression of blacks.
Looking at race from a neutral or objective standpoint is wrongthink, that will lead to outcomes that are not politically desirable and might challenge the dominant narrative.
That's precisely the point, data loses a lot of relevance absent context.
@@candirockstar135
The problem is that we can’t even acknowledge that the data looks the way it looks.
That would be the first step before we can even begin to determine why the data looks that way.
Ezra Klein speaks in exactly the same style as Nathan Rambukkana and the Bald Transgender Professor who debated Jordan Peterson.
because your pride won't let you consider alternatives.
The course lecturer you are referring to is Nicholas Matte
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP that isn’t what he said
Why is Charles Murray Racist?
Benaud because he says things the left doesn't want hear
I had no idea what Ezra looked like. After hearing his voice, I did a Google search and he looks exactly what I thought he would look like.
Same, and same.
listening to Sam makes me think about what he's saying and contemplate how I feel about what he's saying. As soon as Ezra starts speaking I want to punch him in the face.
Leon: I didn't know what he looked like either, but based on the way he sounds and the bog standard leftist drivel he churns out, I always assumed he looked like this:
www.nydailynews.com/resizer/wMma16vkBa9v6TOimcaPnYra7EE=/1200x0/top/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/7LVOBTUFTTDAMMNPC3IE7XBWWM.jpg
Ad Hominem nonsense.
LP I guess if he made some actual points during this discussion there would be something else to attack.
Instead of being 60% water, Ezra is 60% soy
Lmao
"I would like to start out by framing this conversation with the unfounded premise that you lack empathy, that you are wrong and bad, and that I am virtuous and therefore correct."
Also, "I should not be criticized for slandering you and Murray because you said mean things about me, like that I am committing slander."
Also, "you should not criticize identity politcs in others, because you have a bias towards your tribe of "people that care about objective truth and honesty.""
This was tedious but important. Sam offered endless examples of genetic expression and Ezra wasn't comfortable discussing any of it. Every year DNA sequencing offers more and more insight on medical treatments, and eventually mental health will be revolutionized by this knowledge as well. Even in a benign hypothetical context, Ezra still viewed the topic as socially dangerous-which is both condescending and antithetical to his political goals.
Sam offered a load of bullshit as usual. It's amazing how you Sam Harris cultists simply ignore that according to actual scientists Harris is the one who misrepresented science, not Ezra.
BareknuckleBill, sources?
what the hell are you talking about?!
Problem with our society in a nutshell: idealogues like Klein now run the traditional sense making apparatus of our culture, journalism. People like Klein aren’t actually interested in rational dialogue, only if it furthers their end. They’re closer to religious zealots and that should worry us.
It'd be cool if you could even come up with an actual critique of what he said instead parroting the same Anti SJW Bingo card lines you've heard before.
@@NoTengoIdeaGuey We hold Eric's truths to be self-evident. Klein feels ethically righteous but doesn't concern himself with the repercussions of correcting all these wrong. Ideology on the far left or far right tend to hamstring good reasoning. To try to minimum IQ tests so that everyone is the same is shameful absurd excuse-making . Identical Twin separated at birth studies show genetics is general going to be more important that environment. If you are an ID Twin and your IQ is 90 the chances you twin raised in a very difference environment will be within a couple points of 90 is great. Studies of difference of babies of different races show many difference but OF COURSE THE STUDIES ARE REPRESSED.. one can't find them. Lots of information goes missing in the Leftist world, not that the Right wouldn't try the same thing but they don't make up but a small part of the media bias ... talk radio, Fox news, etc.
There are no tests that show you can narrow the IQ differences much just whites can't catch up to Pacific Rim Asian IQ's. I would personally love for it to be mostly environment. Whenever we have smart Jews or Asians we usually think but they are pushed by parents to excel. This is nonsense. You can't push someone with an IQ of 90 to be a doctor or to excel in school. are And sure Whites can do better than Asians in some area but P-R Asian have better memories, which is the foundation of all learning. I will admit that IQ test are generally not perfect - most they don't test memory very well.
His ascension to headlining status at the NYT is unfortunately confirmation that the world will be over soon.
Exactly right!
Ezra's fake laugh as he is speaking is bloody annoying
Yep he is a trite wanker
SAM: This is what you've actually WRITTEN and SAID.
EZRA: This is what I believe you THINK.
bruh so true
1:04:40 Ezra says it's bad faith for Sam Harris to allow someone more knowledgeable about the topic to present his point of view. If there were a far-left gospel it would say, "you shan't know the truth for the truth is problematic."
40:45 Klein starts his pop psychology analysis of Harris.
And insults on his personality
My turn to try that game out: Ezra Klein sucks major dick and doesn't care about science. He cares about creating new class wars that push the real class war out of the way. This is likely the summary of his actual job.
Ezra is so smug and dishonest it makes it very difficult to listen to him speak.
_"Ezra is so smug and dishonest it makes it very difficult to listen to him squeak"_ ...I mean speak
Should be titled "Sam Harris in conversation with a serpent".
A lot of supremacists appear to be fans of Harris.
@@spinningorb Yeah I heard that too. Apparently his podcasts are required listening at Klan meetings these days.
@@thegooglearchipelago8253 LOL - indeed.
@@thegooglearchipelago8253 Jews may be accepted as white, as I have been my whole life.
@@spinningorb supremacists? You mean like the pareto distribution?
You mean Hussain Bolt is Faster at running than Sam Harris?
Klein's singsong NPR voice, while casually slinging his non sequiturds, is enraging.
What does NPR mean?
National Public Radio.
Nonsequiturds.. lmao
I am so angry right now.
@@SuchaDoofus Yeah? Mad that your racism is being suitably mocked? Too bad. I'd say go beat your girlfriend over it, but you don't have one, do you?
Ezra's strategy was clearly to keep the conversation away from science and to focus on communication and politics. it's not difficult to see why.
Because you can't have a debate on science without factoring in the social science aspects of it considering the history of global racial geopolitics
Admirable how Harris remains calm in the face of Klein's propensity for incredulous pseudo-laughter.
It's like Sam, the father, was speaking to his child, Ezra who just learned about a new social issue at school
this vapid Erza woman is Sam's Cathy Neuman.
Hey asshole, you are implying that women are somehow not good. FUCK OFF.
lol
Ezra's wife is ok with him being gay because he makes lotsa money.
don't you just love it when someone with no intimate knowledge of you or the content of your consciousness tells you what's really going on in your head and heart.
Yeah, Sam Harris can be like that sometimes.
Literally most psychiatrists lol
Ezra talking to Sam like he caught a child misbehaving.
Telling a man with a 30 year meditation practice that hes not introspective enough is a pretty wild thing to say.
Ezra:
I'm gonna filibuster, imply malice, and you gotta take it because your self defense is too wordy.
"It's just a disagreement" says Ezra Klein. But it's a disagreement where the consequences of victory for one side of this disagreement could be utter destruction of the other side. It isn't that their ideas would not enacted, it's that they would be labelled with a charge that can make one persona non grata in much of the Western world. "You think you're a reasonable person but I think you're a racist (addendum: racists aren't welcome)".
Perhaps this can clarify it: imagine if being to the left of Rand Paul was perceived as being as morally reprehensible as being a thief and a murderer. Imagine if being an Atheist was perceived as being as inhuman as being a rapist. "You think you're a reasonable person who sees no evidence for god, I think you're a reprobate and if I had my way your kind would have no place in polite society, in universities, in any job... it's just a disagreement".
The charge of racism can be a moral stain akin to being an unrepentant murderer. Imagine a man wrongly convicted of murder who has served his time and been released but where the entirety of society still believes he is guilty and treats him as such - these are the consequences Sam Harris and Charles Murray perceive.
Is vocal fry a standard feature of SJWs?
Almost as much as the misuse of the word "literally"
It's part of the Smug problem. They have their heads so far up their own ass that it forces their vocal chords shut. (Specifically, it's to simulate male dominance... *Simulate*) Soyboy problems.
@@jf9593 "People who seemed indistinguishable"
LOL, first of all there are very very very few gay men who seem indistinguishable. I personally believe homosexuality in men (and only men) has at least a genetic component if not completely hereditary. And this produces a gay phenotype with many easily noticeable and some not so noticeable characteristics. i.e.: The gay voice.
2nd, what does this have to do with vocal fry. From what I've seen, gay dudes in general are way more masculine than the vocal fry, vitrue signaling, male feminist, "why won't she touch my peepee after all i've done for wahmen", soy boys.
The inflection is a simple condescension technique.
Idk but I think girls voices, and I mean real females btw lol, that have some vocal fry are attractive.
I’m already on edge after 30 seconds. Harris asks Klein simply to summarize his complaints and state his case. Klein instead goes on a monologue to “frame” the discussion. Highly aggravating.
Klein's condescending tone reveals his ill-will.
Sam Harris is being treated with all the respect a racist pseudo scientist deserves. Absolutely none.
The best discussion of intelligence I have ever heard. Sam is the obvious unbiased person here.
This video should be called The Ezra Klein Challenge. See how far you can get!
5 minutes in, dumped a bucket of ice on my head.
6 minutes. i'm out.
Only 1:30 I can't stand the condescending micro-chuckle between every clause.
I just skip all the Ezra parts.
I’m halfway... not sure how I’m going to survive the rest
This is a rather one sided argument. Ezra constantly makes arguments that dont actually mean anything.
I like Sam Harris, but Ezra Klein is so intellectually weak and unlikeable that it almost is a straw-man debate. He's just bloviating in vocal fry with histrionic exaggerations.
Klein keeps bringing Murray's other bigs policy considerations. Harris is clearly liberal on social policy. What Klein is saying is: "You can't let this man talk because in another book, he had a view of role of government that I disagree with."
Milton Friedman liked UBI. Me too. I wouldn't fight him talking about UBI because he advocated supply-side economics elsewhere. Disagree about the policies you disagree with.
Ezra Klein represents everything that's wrong with journalism these days. He's NOT a journalist. He's an ideologue who doesn't have an original thought on anything.
They're all activists. Buzzfeed. Vox. Vice. The Verge. The Guardian. HuffPo. And they're all going out of business, Buzzfeed would be if Amazon wasn't a flaming pile of fuckery, propping them up for good press.
@@JerseySlayer Same with the Washington Post, which Bezos acquired as his personal vanity publication espousing his personal interests.
I don't know too much about Sam and I know even less about Ezra, but Ezra (to use a sporting term) is more interested in playing the man instead of the ball.
He sounds like an NYC college kid who "plays the man" every month for his loft rent. Sam's biggest weakness is giving people with almost no fan base a huge audience just because they sent lies about him through twitter. You can only stick to the topic so much. There will always be a chunk of the audience who makes up their mind based on identity politics, and whatever this Ezra guy claims to represent they will now be glad they can cheer for it on one more show.
Accepting the truth of IQ is not harmful. It actually reduces harm by taking away the justification for racist policies like affirmative action and anything based on "disparate impact". Klein is the one promoting an ideology that causes harm.
@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. Nope. You havnt read the science on this issue. All personality traits are at least 50% genetic. IQ is more than 70% genetic.
@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. it's not a lie you're a moron
@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. It is not a lie. It is scientifically proven.
See www.nature.com/articles/ng.3285
@Donald trick Trump Has STD's from Stormy D. Lol, Trump 2020 ,)
@@AbbeyRoad69147 all traits in general are, at their core, genetic because without genes you wouldn't exist lol, I think you mean the variance in those traits is genetic, and honestly, that percentage changes based on how extreme the environmental factors are. If you compared an upper-class, well-educated student with someone who was kept in a box with no human contact for most of their childhood, the difference in IQ would be almost entirely environmental, but for two people with fairly similar childhoods and prenatal conditions, you would expect the difference in IQ to be mostly genetic. The Flynn effect demonstrated approximately a 20 IQ point difference between the US population in the early 1930s as compared to the population around 2000. Basically IQ is mostly useful for measuring genetic potential in subjects with very similar environments.
Ezra Klein is a deliberately deceptive person, really good at using a lot of words to say nothing, but the bottom line is that he has not a single rational argument or piece of evidence to refute the assertions of Murray or Harris.
Hey Ezra,
Reality sucks sometimes...
Lying to a person with an IQ of 80 by telling them the reason they fail is social constructs is EVIL...
Someone sounds extremely arrogant and rude in this conversation and it's not Sam. :]
Sam:
Fact...fact...fact...
Ezra:
virtue signal... virtue signal...virtue signal.
I can't stand when someone tries to start an "intellectual" conversation with empathy. Science is cold and a warm scientist is a poor scientist.
This is the longest gaslight argument I've ever heard: "I think you have a sensitive ear... when people disagree with you.."
On the side of Klein, the rhetoric says it all:
"Who you are..."
"What you are..."
"What you don't understand..."
"What you are missing..."
This is a great example that not all conversation - no matter calm they are - are worth having.
The psychology displayed in this polite, civilized (but by no means friendly) argument is fascinating. Most of what appears to be compromise on Sam's part was actually him clarifying when Ezra conflates two or more separate issues. Neither side was willing to give an inch.
Ezra "I spoke with him yesterday" Klein
No shit😂😂😂 “as of Monday”....
So guys I’m five minutes into Ezra Klein speaking and he hasn’t said anything of substance yet. Should I turn back now or keep going?
Well, your racist pseudoscience gets exposed for what it is: utter horse shit. Might just skip it.
After the email exchange, I was expecting to hear someone reasonable. But Ezra is a virtue-signalling, smug git.
It is annoying that Ezra is also pretty smart, and good at the process of debate. He's probably won almost every debate he has ever had with his technique and wit, and never had to face the prospect of changing his mind, or backing down.
This is probably why he has managed to convince himself that he has the moral high ground, and why he thinks he can lecture Harris on the nature of his character.
Another summary for those who can't bear to listen:
Sam: These are my reasons for wanting to have this conversation and make these topics less radioactive.
Ezra: Wow, I'm really glad you brought that up. Now let me accuse you of every disingenuous motivation I can think of because only terrible or confused people would ever be interested in talking about the facts of something this abhorrent.
Sam: We can't avoid facts, so let's find a way to discuss this productively so as to engineer a better society.
Ezra: No.
The very beginning of the video:
Harris: "What don't I get? Why is your criticism me and Murray valid? Just give me your take on all this."
Klein: "I don't think that's where I want to begin this."
Way to dodge an important question.
You can tell from the start, Ezra is all up in his feelings.
Huh? Harris is talking ideas, and Klein keeps moving the goalposts and appealing to emotion and "history."
It seems like Klein wants to say he thinks Murray is a bad person but doesn't have the nuts to just come out and say it. #coward
I had to stop listening about the third time Ezra said, "I gave you your turn, now it's mine."
Yeah, I'm sure it pisses you off when people don't just let you issue your racist rants. Tough shit.
1:11:58
Sam: "Do you doubt that people are different?"
Everyone that's not dishonest: "No."
Ezra: "...segragation... oppression... violence... terror... trauma..."
Ezras position is he feels he has a right to sensor anything counter to his view
With a full scan and level 1 diagnostic.
Censoship isn't a term one applies to private companies. What you are suggesting is that Vox should be forced to present particular points of view.
@@buckstarwell7938 My comment was about ezra I dont care who distributes
Did you even listen to the podcast? He spent over an hour talking with him on a massive platform.
@@NoTengoIdeaGuey Did you bother to think before posting that? Ezra uses circular arguments and rarely entertains any position but his own and implying a moral high ground which is no basis for a sound discussion.
Klein is implying that the truth should be subordinate to other considerations, namely how the world SHOULD be (in his eyes) as opposed to how it really is.
Ultimately, we can avoid the truth but we cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding the truth.
The should be vs what is, is a very hard discrepancy for humans to come to terms with, yet we have to, because since it’s so painful to admit to the point where it’s almost a problem, the first step to solve a problem is admitting you have one.
I even detailed in one of my essays to a woke college professor that the way to solve racism was to see the innocence in the racists. Of course this would spiral some leftist into lunacy land because they believe they SHOULD suffer the consequences. But I detailed that seeing them how they see themselves is the pure way of trying it out (kind of like Jordan Peterson advocates for the truth), and I ended it off with saying: we can ignore the truth, but we cannot ignore the consequences of the truth, and until we lift the comforting veil that covers the underlying root of the problem, we will continue to suffer.
This is an *EXCERPT* of a discussion that was over _two hours long!_
Any comment that hasn't listened to it is not worth reading.
Sam outlines their history beautifully in the beginning and well, you can listen to Ezra flounder, pontificate, interrupt after that. Another commenter called it "Bulverism" and it applies beautifully.
(Now, let's see who is too lazy in this internet age to paste that into Google and learn a new word for the day.)
Bulverism is a logical fallacy. The method of Bulverism is to "assume that your opponent is wrong, and explain his error." The Bulverist assumes a speaker's argument is invalid or false and then explains why the speaker came to make that mistake, attacking the speaker or the speaker's motive. The term Bulverism was coined by C. S. Lewis to poke fun at a very serious error in thinking that, he alleges, recurs often in a variety of religious, political, and philosophical debates (copied from Wikipedia). Do I get a prize?
The flimsiness of his arguments aside - the manner Ezra speaks in sounds like he's mocking a high-school mean girl. Except that's how he's talking the entire time. Which is why I find it so hard to figure out whether I cannot take him seriously because he adamantly refuses to speak on the subject or because he sounds like a perfect parody of himself.
Yes! It's like he is perpetually mid-snark, eyeing the insecure teenage girl or boy in front of him, determined to destroy with cruelty.
Ezra sounds like an angry, condescending wife.
Shame on you Ezra!
From the beginning Ezra sounded really obsessed with Murray,but after Sam refuted his claims about Murray he only sounded very angry. And I am only twenty minutes into the video.
Update: 40 minutes in Ezra only sounds bitter.
This is really hard to sit through, I constantly get flashbacks to the conversation between Richard Dawkins and the creationist Wendy Wright. 😂
Wow, that's an extreme analogy, but I completely understand why you use it. Klein is a religious ideologue of the cult of intersectional feminist victimology.
Wrong, you couldn't be anymore tone deaf to reality than Sam Harris is on this topic. Sad
Steve Wanker. The amount of emotional manipulation progressives succumb to is absolutely insane. White guilt is bullshit.
Are you a troll?
Donald Trump is Affirmative Action for the GOP Maybe Ezra is just a troll, no sane person could believe what he believes. 😂
If I hear him nervously laugh and say “this is good” or “this is helpful” one more time.......
I got up to 58 mins and could not take any more of that irritating shit Ezra (I think I'm so smart) Klein. Sam Harris is way way above his intellect and more importantly, a much nicer person.
Abso-freakin-lutely!!!
Klein packs so many non-restrictive appositives within his sentences, sometimes within themselves like Russian dolls. It’s never a good sign. I’m sure he is proud of his Rube Goldberg verbal constructions, it’s brutal for the listener. This pod should be 1/3 as long.
Ezra Kline makes the best argument for libertarianism I have ever heard. Who wants that moral busy body in control of their life?
They should also talk about which kind of people are looting retail and drug stores causing a lot of stores in some cities to close.
Is there like a part 2 or something
Ezra is infuriatingly dishonest.
I have never listened to as much virtue signaling without religious missionaries being involved.
They both spend more time analyzing each others debating style than the actual question at hand.
Read this to help cure you of your Sam Harris affliction: www.wired.com/story/sam-harris-and-the-myth-of-perfectly-rational-thought/