I like how you explain it. Mid drive is like a manual shift car. Hub drive is like an automatic car. Durability and efficiency issues aside, that is the simplest way to explain it.
it was a little tricky to try to explain, especially when i'm no expert, but this was my best shot :) i bet about 90% of people buying these ebikes would prefer a Hub drive.
You're like a friendly, honest neighbor that loves sharing ebike info, and has been able to obtain a few different ebikes so that your observations are more meaningful. In other words, you rock. Excellent work. I look forward to each video you post.
Excellent points for those who never had a mid drive! Anyone considering buying one MUST see this video, it's MANDATORY!!!!!!! Keep up the good work, Citizen!
Best explanation of hub vs mid drive motor I've seen so far! The off-bike demonstration showing which parts move was a great idea. The shifting theory was really helpful too. Thanks for this.
@@CitizenCycle925 I got a generic single-speed Gates belt-drive ebike with a 36V hub motor, cadence sensor and thumb throttle, $1200. 46 lbs, so it's not too bad to lift when I need to. I couldn't afford the Luna Fixed with mid-drive motor, otherwise I might have gotten that. The cadence sensor takes forever to kick in and I wish I had a torque sensor instead. To compensate I use the thumb throttle to get off the line at lights and stop signs. Still laggy and unresponsive when I'm already moving, but it's liveable. I really like the simplicity of having no extra gears and shifters cluttering up the bike and the electric motor mostly makes up for not having gears. I've heard TH-camrs say they leave their bikes in 1 gear most of the time anyway. I don't miss having a wider gear range. I also really like not having a greasy chain to avoid touching and that I would have to maintain. I biked on some salty snowy roads recently and I loved not caring about getting a rusty chain.
Very well explained sir. Thank you for that. Oh... and since that Stunner X makes you feel like a kid again, it becomes a time machine, and therefore the color can justifiably be described as "TARDIS Blue" :-)
Very informative comparison. I was riding the beach 2 nights ago, almost full moon, negative low tide. I came upon a real bumpy hard pack and my chain popped off. I was miles from any main road. Rear hub motor, throttle only allowed me to get to level ground. I removed my Victagen light (thanx Bryan) turned off motor and "throttled" any power still in the system. Hoping I was not going to call Triple A (my wife) of the E-Bike world. Placed chain back on cassette and sprocket. First gear, acoustic pedal. Fixed! With rear hub motor, throttle only I could still get home if needed. You pointed out, Mid-Drive motor needs the chain to power rear wheel. Do Mid-Drive owners carry a spare chain? I listened to the faint but audible shifting sounds, between gears. I learned some interesting info. here again. Ride-ON!
Thank you for making this video. I was on the fence between a Hub drive and a Mid drive motor and after watching this video, I realized that Hub motor is what I am looking for. In my opinion, one is not better than the other. The individual needs to choose the particular set up that is right for their individual needs. Thanks again :)
This is the most helpful single source of information I have found in hours of trying to understand the difference of shifting on a mid drive vs my current hub. Very well presented, thank you!
If you are just starting out I suggest you do what I did - look at the low cost Lectrics. Lectric has three models under $1,000 that are fantastic. I purchased two of them.
As someone who can't (and doesn't want to) drive a manual car, and never goes beyond 3 or 4 different gears on my bike, all this critical gear switching seems like a huge headache and distraction from paying attention to my surroundings. This video sold me on a hub motor and not a mid-drive.
Thank you for the easy to understand video on the mid drive bikes. I had thought I had done enough e-bike research and was sold on the RadRover until I started watching your videos about 2 weeks ago and now i am re-starting all of that research LOL. My wife's getting a Rad-bike of some kind for the gentle power and ride but I'm now looking at others. Keep up the great work.
ya I was just about settled on getting the Radrunner before I saw this review. He did a much better review of this bike than all of the Radrunner reviews I've seen. Actually one of the biggest reasons I was going to get the Radrunner is because there's no gear shifting, which made sense to me because I always thought the whole reason for getting an electric bike was so that shifting gears would become obsolete. When it becomes too hard to pedal, just engage the motor. But this bike makes shifting look sensible again.
Thank you for your videos. I'm starting to look into getting an ebike 8n December 2022. Looking forward for Spring in R.I. There are some hills here. Last year I've tried a few ebikes. Not many with a throttle. Pedego was one. The motor cuts out at 20mph. The other bikes were mid drive Bosch motors. What I've learned from this video is, can't be in 7th or 9th and use the throttle. There are ebikes with an interal hub. Can shift at anytime. I like it because it's like a throttle. Turn it and it has a display with the gear number. This makes for a very narrow choice.
Another great demonstration video. I have no problem shifting gears but wouldn't want to. I like the hub motor better. I can shift into any gear and still have the same power available. I do love the blue color.
I have a mid drive with the same Bafang motor and it's important to point out that the force from the torque generated from a standing start in high gear has a greater potential to damage the motor because its windings will quickly heat with current that cannot be utilized because its not spinning. Heat, is its worst enemy. Even if you're already in motion going up hill it's better on the motor to rev to speed from low to mid to high gear.
I actively watch your videos , and currently I have 9 bikes all but my last one i bought is a mid drive and that would be a used specialized turbo vado 3.0 , I was very optimistic when i was putting in my offer for that bicycle becuase it had mid drive motor and no throttle , and I knew that even though I was getting a good deal on the bicycle it would cost me an arm and a leg to get any part for the bicycle in case something wasn't functioning properly . Fast forward 2 weeks , I love my mid drive over anything else I have just because you feel so connected to the road because of all that manual shifting and you feel like you're in control of the bicycle rather than other way around .
Wow! Have been looking at e-bikes for months and thought I knew about Hub and mid Drive Motors. Well, you got me! I had no clue that a mid-drive was kind of like a 5-speed or motorcycle having to be conscious of which gear you are in. Seems like the Hub Motors are much easier for casual riding and fun, but I live in San Francisco and I'm very interested in the mid drives for that torque to get up the monster Hills we have or do you think a good 750 watt Hub motor and peddling is good enough as well? I have lately seen plenty of Hub Drive bicycles going up the hills in my neighborhood and it looks like they were doing a pretty good job of it.
The end of your vid lunging from a dead stop in 1st expressed it the best for me. Thanks. What would be cooler is if you began from a dead stop at the bottom of a steep grade, like 40%, and went up as fast as you can, & then do the same with your Rad hub ebike.
Thank you, that was a very concise and clear explanation on the differences between hub and mid drive motors. I have a hub drive and I’m glad I went with it, despite coming from an MC background.
Thanks for the comparison! Question... Will a hub-drive work with a mid-drive on the same bike with dual throttles? What I'd like to do is put the 750W hub motor on the front of a BeeCool Challenger, then put a mid-drive on the back wheel, Giving me both options plus AWD. Another thought, Is it possible to use a CVT on a mid-drive ebike? Chains are loud and they break. Transmissions are mechanical, heavy and expensive. CVT's are lightweight, cheap, quiet and seem like the perfect solution...?
Wonderful video. If u live in Florida the hub drive makes sense. I live in the mountains so I went with the middrive. Two questions: 1. Have u played with tuning the motor? There should be my power on hand. 2. Some of the Biktrix bikes come with an 11 speed SRAM. Do u think the extra speeds would have helped attain more speed. Yes...I'm a guy so we all love speed. Lol
So if your chain breaks, with a mid-drive you are screwed but a hub motor you could limp home on throttle? Kinda tips the scale in favour of a hub drive for me. Plus with a hub drive there is no stress in the chain and drivetrain. With the torque of an electric mid-drive I would also think that could wear out the chain leading to chain stretch faster than a non electric or hub drive.
@@stevosteverino7602 breaking a chain sounds like shifting an automatic car into neutral on the highway. if you dont understand what stresses your vehicle then yeah your chain would break. my question is, do chains break/snap from sudden force or it the gradual wear down from continual mismanagement?
Wow Dude you made my day! A Wheelie!!! A true sign of low end torque. As an ex motorcycle rider, and avid bicycle rider, shifting is just natural. When I ride my Rad I constantly shift through the gears. For me if you’re not shifting through the gears, you’re not really exercising. But there is nothing wrong with just using the motor and cruising for fun. I know a lot of people who do it just love to ride. This was a great review. I’m looking for my next e-bike and you’ve confirmed my feelings on torque. However from what I see, moving the throttle to the left hand would certainly screw with my head.
Glad the little wheelie brightened your day haha I'm definitely going to do some more in a future video with better camera shot. I shift my rad too but usually only 3 thru 7. I thought the throttle on the left would be hard, but you adapt fast.
Excellent comparison. Being a traditional cyclist I appreciate the use of manual gear shifting. Seeking a mid drive with rack mounts on head tube for bike packing. Not liking hub drives. Bet fixing a rear flat is a PITA
Nice video very informative. I just found it amusing how you kept comparing a mid drive motors shifting to a motorcycle as to I would compare it to just riding a regular bicycle.
That's why I'm planning to include 2 motors. I live in a place where there are a lot of steep roads, even competitive bikers ran out of gas before they got to the top. Like you've said once you snapped your chain, your mid drive set up is done. You cannot pedal anymore. Also, I might need the additional torque at the front tires for my father. He's old now, those steep roads are killer for him.
Great information and demonstration. The mid drive seems to prefer to be ridden very much like a conventional shifting bike with the addition of electric power boost.
I own a hub drive and just bought a mid drive. The biggest difference is a mid drive takes more work. On really steep hills the mid drive works better but in all other areas the hub drive works better and is faster. Right now I prefer my mid drive because it fills my fitness needs. If you are not fit and do not want to get fit, buy a hub drive. Mid drives are usually lighter and feel more like a real bike. Hub drive is like a hybrid bike / scooter.
Love the way you review bikes... thank you. The wife and I own Himiway Cruiser right now but she’s had two knees replacement and it’s hard for her to go for rides ( 15-20 miles) so we have been looking at 24” bikes. We found a Motan M-430 Step -Thru Fat Bike Cruiser. Have you done any reviews on this bike.. thanks
Unfortunately I have not reviewed that bike ☹️ looks like a nice bike though, the 24in wheels and the frame style on this StunnerX helps with accessibility for sure though, much easier for my wife (5'3") to get on this bike than my Himiway Cruiser Stepthru. I image the M430 would be quite approachable as well.
You got me hooked on your channel. Like looking at all the differant models and how they comparei natural environments. My biggest concern is not how fast but how long can I ride before I think about getting home.
Another really helpful video, Citizen. I have a RideScoozy brand Veego 750 fatire bike that is over a year old. I see they have upgraded this years Veego 750 including going from 48 volts to 52 Volts. I wonder if you could get them to provide a loaner to you for testing. I would love to see what the improvements do.
It's nice to see how much fun you're having. E-bikes are awesome in all flavors but I'm partial to the mid-drives. Hub drives aren't restricted to the rear. They can be located in either or both hubs. Some settings are limited by the display unit on the bike. With a different display unit you should be able to set a higher top speed but I doubt the motor could go much faster than 32 mph except down hills. You can get an adapter that allows you to (temporarily) connect a computer and rework many of the internal settings so you can change things like how much throttle you get in each PAS level. Some people prefer if the throttle is off in PAS 0 (I don't personally). I think your motor must be set to limit the throttle only power because on my BBS02 the throttle can move the bike faster than my pedaling (or you have stronger legs than I).
Very impressed, although with 120 nm of torque, I would expect top speed to be much better than 30 mph. I've seen reviews of e-bikes with 80-85 nm do more than that. What is the range of this more powerful Biktrix ebike?
I have to say you have explained it the best. Just saying you could remove the chain and still run a hub motor that said it all. If you ride bikes all the time med drive would be smart. Hub motor would be best for beginners that are not use to shifting down everytime you come to a stop. Med drive is exciting but for a beginner hub makes sense. Thanks
The power cut when shifting is called "torque management" in the automotive world, and it's very necessary in this application! So what is your top speed in first gear? And how does your 0 to 20 mph time compare to your Rover?
It's just like a car. Top speed in first gear depends on the gear ratio. If the ratio is high enough in 1st that you don't have to switch gears to reach 20 mph it should blow away the hub from 0 to 20. If you have to switch gears to reach 20 things even out for the hub drive.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 - You are definitely right. I don't see first gear getting past 10 mph, and with the motor cutting power for each shift, and not doing it quickly, it should be fairly close. I have the RadMini with 1,600 watts, but it has the mechanical advantage over the Rover with the smaller wheels. I usually beat cars across the intersection when the light changes, lol. PS: I just did 0 to 20 mph timing tests for this bike, his Rad Rover, Himiway, and the RadMini. Stock Rad Rover: 15.03 seconds Biktrix Stunner X: 9.4 seconds Himiway Cruiser: 8.71 seconds Rad Rover with 35 amp controller only: 6.85 seconds RadMini with 35 amp controller only: 4.9 seconds Now, the Biktrix will be slightly faster if he makes a dedicated 0 to 20 run. The speed run in this video had to be timed from the moment he hit PAS 5 at a roll, so it's actually 3 mph to 19.9 mph. Starting in first will give him a stronger start with the mid drive, but every shift loses time, so starting in third gear might be better.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 . Not necessarily, at a complete stand still , starting at an steep incline , speed is unattainable. Lower the gear, higher cadence, will produce more efficient constant forward momentum .
another awesome video. i have a AR kepler52v1000w1800peak but want to upgrade to AWD but ididnt want the two throotles and displays. so im choosing between e-cells 1500 awd offroad(first choice), or bitrix XD DUO. what would you suggest for me im bigger person at 6 2 250. ride in pas 5 gear7 mostly on road ALOT of traffic but want to be able to take hunting too. im basically replacing atvs and only drive car when going more than 30miles. thx for your videos and help.
Got a Stunner x 6 and within 2 months the rear bearing failed and I have working for months to work it out on warranty. They sent me a replacement wheel, tire and bearing but they sent a 20x4 vs. a 20x3, and the drama continues to get the right wheel. Also the display was defective and they sent me a new one, and they stays on the front fender failed too and they sent me new stays. Also purchased a Fabulous 60V EMX Extreme dual hub drive at the same time and it has worked briliantly with now over 2500 miles.
wow, surprised with your stunner problems, the 2 bikes i received from them worked great, only issue i had was a leaky rear caliper which i just fixed on my own. i guess sometimes you get a lemon :( glad your EMX has worked out though, that is a fun bike!
Great tutorial on the hub drive vs mid drive question. I know you said and I have read numerous other sources concerning how much superior the mid drive is over a hub drive when riding up hills. Not just positive grades...I mean hills like you find in Seattle or the Bay Area. Since you have a Rad bike (as do I), would it be possible to do a comparison of your Rad bike vs this BikTrix mid drive on uphill riding/climbing? I live in the La Vegas area and many of the bike trails around here have some hills that are quite challenging to my Rad City Step-thru bike. So much so that on one of the trails I like to ride I have to resort to walking it up.
Great Video! Thank You! I live in a very hilly Pismo Beach, CA. (Bugs Bunny always wanted to come here!) Our house sits on a pretty steep hill (1st to 2nd gear on my Mtn pedal bike) I'm 6'2" 250ibs 64YO and stuck between the Himiway Cruiser, or the BikTrix Juggernaut 750 mid drive. Which would you choose? Or is there some other recommendation? I just think a hub drive would get bogged down on my hill's and mountains... Thank YOU
You mentioned North Carolina. Where are you located? Are you available for ebike consultation, service, I have a couple questions. I have a pedego element, I want to update the motor, what is entailed in doing that Thanks Russ
You should have looked at craigslist I listed a folding carbon fiber bike that went 36mph top speed. It will climb any hill. It was super fast Asheville area
Neat video buddy! Really well thought out and spot on with the info about the mid drive. I've never rode a hub drive so can't comment on them but i'll take your word for it you obviously know your stuff. My bike arrived the end of last week or the start of this week, can't remember! lol I got the 1000w mid drive, the power you talk of is just insane! I'm thinking i may program the settings a bit as supposedly you can make them stupid fast and even more off the chain powerful real easy. It's very tempting! Ha Ha! 😈 Mine is a very heavy bike though and will still wheelspin or wheelie on command! The mid drive is defo not just a twist and go whenever you want deal, you have to think before you "let it loose" but the extra fun you get for doing that is soooo worth it for me. Have a gud un! 👍
@@CitizenCycle925 I got the MD1000 that Bolton Ebikes sells in the US. I tried to get it from Bolton Ebikes first but they don't ship full bikes to the UK so i had to get it shipped from China. It's a nice bike but it's friggin HUGE!! ☺
Very interesting your video. The way you explained it is perfect. Like other said a hub motor bike is a kinda like a automatic car because you just can hit the throttle and go without caring what gear you use but a mid drive motor is very interesting for the advantage it offers. I have a hub motor e-bike I bought the last summer. I don't wanted to spend too much money on an electric bike so I bought it on Amazon for 1500$ CAD. It's just a 500w/55 nm torque e-bike but it gets the job done, plenty of power for general use, when the battery is full charge I can go ~35 km/h. You can see my bike review in my TH-cam videos. At the moment I bought my bike, I didn't really know that mid drive motor existed at the moment, I just wanted a cheap e-bike but I did'nt believe I would love cycling so much now I've got an electric bicycle. I ride over 1100 km in less than 3 months with it. Even if I have a hub motor e-bike, I still changing speed gears when I ride because I like to pedal and have a little work out, so I always help the motor by pedaling with it. Cruising on the 3rd level assist mode I ride at 22-23 km/h, I'm on the 3rd or 4th gear (I have 7 speed) and when I come to a stop I downshift to at least the 2nd speed. The only downside is when I have a good hill to climb, I have to downshift in second or first and pedaling harder to keep up if I don't want to slow down under 19-20 km/h. This is why a mid drive motor is interesting, it's got POWER. From a logical and mechanical minded guy, the mid drive motor really fascinates me. Since it works with the bike gears, it's closer to a motorcycle or a manual car in my opinion. From what I saw, it also seems to have a better control and feeling riding a mid drive because torque sensor. With a hub drive motor if you just want to ride slow, the moment you just turn the crank, the cadence sensor activate and it feels like an on/off switch. It's not even 1 year I have my e-bike and I'm already thinking to upgrade on another bicycle lol. The extra cost for a mid drive seems to worth it. I will certainly consider a mid drive motor bike as a next purchase, whenever it will. Lol
I've watched a few of these videos and I get the feeling that a lot of people don't understand how to use e-bikes correctly but I guess that isn't surprising because I know a lot of people can't figure out how to use the gears of a multi-gear non-electric bike. I've seen people ride these using 1 or a couple of gears.
If you already have a decent regular bike the best way to go is to just buy a mid drive motor kit and convert your bike into a ebike. It's way cheaper than a factory built mid drive bike, and you'll have better performance in top speed and torque for hills. I bought a Befang BBSO2 750w kit and converted my MTB into a hill eating trail blazing torque monster. Got a 52v 17ah battery for it. 30mph in peddle assist 2 (out of 5)
So shifting gears without peddling can be done? Sorry for the question but I’m planning on buying an electric bike early next year. I’m 60+ and need some assisted excersize
I'm in my mid 60s with bad knees and heart so for all intent I don't peddle with any force. I have a mid drive and when shifted properly it gives me the ability to use the throttle in all situations. The objective is to reduce hard meshing the gears and it takes getting used to. It can be all but eliminated if each time you shift you casually rotate the peddles, even without actual engagement at the rear wheel. Shifting will gradually become dependably smooth the more you adapt.
As a mid drive ebike owner, This guy knows what he’s talking about! You have to be very careful and ride these bikes properly! I have an even more powerful bike (Nireeka Prime) that came with a 1000w bafang ultra motor with 160NM of torque, 38mph top speed, and it can RIP thru the drivetrain. In fact, back when I didn’t know what I was doing, it destroyed my ENTIRE drivetrain, causing me to have to completely replace my wheel and all components. Be careful out there!
@@CitizenCycle925 I haven’t weighed mine myself, but it definitely feels a little lighter compared to other fat ebikes! Here’s some pics of mine I uploaded. :) ibb.co/album/bQHSnq
So what happens if you are in a higher gear and you have to stop suddenly ? So how do you resolve it if you are in a higher gear at a stop ? If you start to pedal so you can shift isnt it going to try to apply power ?
Can you change the wheel size to get more top speed? I forget how but I’ve heard there is a formula to change the wheel size and get the kph to show the mph based on wheel size. That motor cuts off based on speed so changing wheel size trucks the motor into not cutting off as soon 😎
Are any of these ebikes capable of regenerative braking? Like how cars do, so suddenly you reach a huge long down hill - can any of these bikes use that to recharge its batteries?
I could see myself buying a mid drive if I lived in a place like San Francisco or city with hills. But on the east coast of Virginia that much torque is not needed. With that said, I wonder how it does on sand?
i changed my settings on the bafang ultra by plugging it in to my pc and updated it so the throttle gives me max power for the assist level i am in so 1 is 500w and so on yours is set to lvl 9 or max pas on any setting
I do agree with this explanation . These ebike are still bikes , remember learning how to ride a bike and gear changes ? It doesn’t change just because you have an electric motor . Imagine you’re at a bottom of a steep hill with your dad’s 10 speed .. try putting keeping it in 10th and starting up that steep hill.. ain’t gonna work. Common sense should kick in at some point !
E bikes are great, but as a blue collar worker i am looking at buying for my family. I will have to buy 3 to 4 for everyone. So you can see how expensive of a investment. I don't want the cheap 600 micro size. Well great information .
Of course, it adds a lot of range. I ride a 250W hubmotor and a 250W middrive with both 500Wh batteries and I get easy 1/3 more range with the middrive.
Suuuper useful information and you did a great explanation. I was undecided about wish type of motor I need. Know I figure out that I’m more on the side of your wife 😄 Thanks!!!
I guess the main thing I'd be most concerned about with all that torque is snapping the chain in the middle of a 30 mile trail somewhere. At least with the hub drive you'd have a chance of making it home without having to perform trailside repairs......
I like how you explain it. Mid drive is like a manual shift car. Hub drive is like an automatic car. Durability and efficiency issues aside, that is the simplest way to explain it.
it was a little tricky to try to explain, especially when i'm no expert, but this was my best shot :) i bet about 90% of people buying these ebikes would prefer a Hub drive.
Mid drive is loud 4 a ebike
You're like a friendly, honest neighbor that loves sharing ebike info, and has been able to obtain a few different ebikes so that your observations are more meaningful. In other words, you rock. Excellent work. I look forward to each video you post.
Greatly appreciate that comment thank you!
Excellent points for those who never had a mid drive! Anyone considering buying one MUST see this video, it's MANDATORY!!!!!!! Keep up the good work, Citizen!
Best explanation of hub vs mid drive motor I've seen so far! The off-bike demonstration showing which parts move was a great idea. The shifting theory was really helpful too. Thanks for this.
Thank you, I wanted to take a little different approach since it can be confusing. Glad you liked it 🙂 What kind of bike are you riding?
@@CitizenCycle925 I got a generic single-speed Gates belt-drive ebike with a 36V hub motor, cadence sensor and thumb throttle, $1200. 46 lbs, so it's not too bad to lift when I need to. I couldn't afford the Luna Fixed with mid-drive motor, otherwise I might have gotten that.
The cadence sensor takes forever to kick in and I wish I had a torque sensor instead. To compensate I use the thumb throttle to get off the line at lights and stop signs. Still laggy and unresponsive when I'm already moving, but it's liveable.
I really like the simplicity of having no extra gears and shifters cluttering up the bike and the electric motor mostly makes up for not having gears. I've heard TH-camrs say they leave their bikes in 1 gear most of the time anyway. I don't miss having a wider gear range. I also really like not having a greasy chain to avoid touching and that I would have to maintain. I biked on some salty snowy roads recently and I loved not caring about getting a rusty chain.
Very well explained sir. Thank you for that. Oh... and since that Stunner X makes you feel like a kid again, it becomes a time machine, and therefore the color can justifiably be described as "TARDIS Blue" :-)
Very informative comparison. I was riding the beach 2 nights ago, almost full moon, negative low tide. I came upon a real bumpy hard pack and my chain popped off. I was miles from any main road. Rear hub motor, throttle only allowed me to get to level ground. I removed my Victagen light (thanx Bryan) turned off motor and "throttled" any power still in the system. Hoping I was not going to call Triple A (my wife) of the E-Bike world. Placed chain back on cassette and sprocket. First gear, acoustic pedal.
Fixed! With rear hub motor, throttle only I could still get home if needed. You pointed out, Mid-Drive motor needs the chain to
power rear wheel. Do Mid-Drive owners carry a spare chain? I listened to the faint but audible shifting sounds, between gears.
I learned some interesting info. here again. Ride-ON!
Thank you for making this video. I was on the fence between a Hub drive and a Mid drive motor and after watching this video, I realized that Hub motor is what I am looking for. In my opinion, one is not better than the other. The individual needs to choose the particular set up that is right for their individual needs. Thanks again :)
Glad you found it helpful!
I agree completely. I have seen people hate on both. Both are excellent systems to me.
I loved the sound of the mid drive as you were shifting through the gears. Sounded like a manual car transmission ..awesome.
it is a very different drive system, super strong but i dont feel like it appeals to the masses...
This is the most helpful single source of information I have found in hours of trying to understand the difference of shifting on a mid drive vs my current hub. Very well presented, thank you!
No, thank you! that comment means a lot! I'm glad it helped!
awesome video ! thanks. i'm going with a mid drive bike due to small hills and outrageous 17-20 mph headwinds the majority of my commute runs !
I am still in the research mode for Electric Bikes so this is very helpful and informative, Thanks..
Did u ever buy one? I'm still in the market
@@kingkai9818 No, still pedaling my Electra Townie at this time.
@@kingkai9818 No, not yet. Still riding my Electra Townie. Maybe when I get a little older, will get one.
I'm in that same rabbit hole. So many to choose from.
If you are just starting out I suggest you do what I did - look at the low cost Lectrics. Lectric has three models under $1,000 that are fantastic. I purchased two of them.
As someone who can't (and doesn't want to) drive a manual car, and never goes beyond 3 or 4 different gears on my bike, all this critical gear switching seems like a huge headache and distraction from paying attention to my surroundings. This video sold me on a hub motor and not a mid-drive.
Glad you found it helpful in making your decision 😁
Thank you for the easy to understand video on the mid drive bikes. I had thought I had done enough e-bike research and was sold on the RadRover until I started watching your videos about 2 weeks ago and now i am re-starting all of that research LOL. My wife's getting a Rad-bike of some kind for the gentle power and ride but I'm now looking at others. Keep up the great work.
ya I was just about settled on getting the Radrunner before I saw this review. He did a much better review of this bike than all of the Radrunner reviews I've seen. Actually one of the biggest reasons I was going to get the Radrunner is because there's no gear shifting, which made sense to me because I always thought the whole reason for getting an electric bike was so that shifting gears would become obsolete. When it becomes too hard to pedal, just engage the motor. But this bike makes shifting look sensible again.
Finally! A great video explaining the difference! And your demonstration was excellent! You’d be a great high school teacher! Thank you!!!!
Glad you found it helpful!!
Great concise video I've been in forums right now and people are adamant their read hub uses the rear cassette gears.
Thank you for your videos. I'm starting to look into getting an ebike 8n December 2022. Looking forward for Spring in R.I.
There are some hills here. Last year I've tried a few ebikes. Not many with a throttle. Pedego was one. The motor cuts out at 20mph. The other bikes were mid drive Bosch motors.
What I've learned from this video is, can't be in 7th or 9th and use the throttle.
There are ebikes with an interal hub. Can shift at anytime. I like it because it's like a throttle. Turn it and it has a display with the gear number. This makes for a very narrow choice.
Thank you for the explanation and video, this really helped me to understand the differences between the hub motor and the mid drive.👍👍
Another great demonstration video. I have no problem shifting gears but wouldn't want to. I like the hub motor better. I can shift into any gear and still have the same power available. I do love the blue color.
I totally get it, after riding both I felt it was something to point out, might affect someone's buying decision.
I have a mid drive with the same Bafang motor and it's important to point out that the force from the torque generated from a standing start in high gear has a greater potential to damage the motor because its windings will quickly heat with current that cannot be utilized because its not spinning. Heat, is its worst enemy. Even if you're already in motion going up hill it's better on the motor to rev to speed from low to mid to high gear.
There should be the same problem on hub drive motors...
I actively watch your videos , and currently I have 9 bikes all but my last one i bought is a mid drive and that would be a used specialized turbo vado 3.0 , I was very optimistic when i was putting in my offer for that bicycle becuase it had mid drive motor and no throttle , and I knew that even though I was getting a good deal on the bicycle it would cost me an arm and a leg to get any part for the bicycle in case something wasn't functioning properly . Fast forward 2 weeks , I love my mid drive over anything else I have just because you feel so connected to the road because of all that manual shifting and you feel like you're in control of the bicycle rather than other way around .
Finally, an actual channel with real consumer information in ebikes.
I'm certainly no expert but I'm trying to be helpful 😁
Wow! Have been looking at e-bikes for months and thought I knew about Hub and mid Drive Motors. Well, you got me! I had no clue that a mid-drive was kind of like a 5-speed or motorcycle having to be conscious of which gear you are in. Seems like the Hub Motors are much easier for casual riding and fun, but I live in San Francisco and I'm very interested in the mid drives for that torque to get up the monster Hills we have or do you think a good 750 watt Hub motor and peddling is good enough as well? I have lately seen plenty of Hub Drive bicycles going up the hills in my neighborhood and it looks like they were doing a pretty good job of it.
Thank you!! I did not know the real difference in operation between the 2 different types of motors. Very informative video.
The end of your vid lunging from a dead stop in 1st expressed it the best for me. Thanks. What would be cooler is if you began from a dead stop at the bottom of a steep grade, like 40%, and went up as fast as you can, & then do the same with your Rad hub ebike.
Thank you, that was a very concise and clear explanation on the differences between hub and mid drive motors. I have a hub drive and I’m glad I went with it, despite coming from an MC background.
you have great informative videos and im a mechanical engineer that learns something new everyday.
Thanks for the comparison! Question... Will a hub-drive work with a mid-drive on the same bike with dual throttles? What I'd like to do is put the 750W hub motor on the front of a BeeCool Challenger, then put a mid-drive on the back wheel, Giving me both options plus AWD. Another thought, Is it possible to use a CVT on a mid-drive ebike? Chains are loud and they break. Transmissions are mechanical, heavy and expensive. CVT's are lightweight, cheap, quiet and seem like the perfect solution...?
Wonderful video. If u live in Florida the hub drive makes sense. I live in the mountains so I went with the middrive. Two questions: 1. Have u played with tuning the motor? There should be my power on hand. 2. Some of the Biktrix bikes come with an 11 speed SRAM. Do u think the extra speeds would have helped attain more speed. Yes...I'm a guy so we all love speed. Lol
So if your chain breaks, with a mid-drive you are screwed but a hub motor you could limp home on throttle? Kinda tips the scale in favour of a hub drive for me. Plus with a hub drive there is no stress in the chain and drivetrain. With the torque of an electric mid-drive I would also think that could wear out the chain leading to chain stretch faster than a non electric or hub drive.
True, chains are going to get stressed with mid-drive motors. With hub motors you'll get more wear on the wheel and spokes.
Never broke a chain tho...
@@stevosteverino7602
breaking a chain sounds like shifting an automatic car into neutral on the highway.
if you dont understand what stresses your vehicle then yeah your chain would break.
my question is, do chains break/snap from sudden force or it the gradual wear down from continual mismanagement?
Wow Dude you made my day! A Wheelie!!! A true sign of low end torque. As an ex motorcycle rider, and avid bicycle rider, shifting is just natural. When I ride my Rad I constantly shift through the gears. For me if you’re not shifting through the gears, you’re not really exercising. But there is nothing wrong with just using the motor and cruising for fun. I know a lot of people who do it just love to ride. This was a great review. I’m looking for my next e-bike and you’ve confirmed my feelings on torque. However from what I see, moving the throttle to the left hand would certainly screw with my head.
Glad the little wheelie brightened your day haha I'm definitely going to do some more in a future video with better camera shot. I shift my rad too but usually only 3 thru 7. I thought the throttle on the left would be hard, but you adapt fast.
Excellent comparison. Being a traditional cyclist I appreciate the use of manual gear shifting. Seeking a mid drive with rack mounts on head tube for bike packing. Not liking hub drives. Bet fixing a rear flat is a PITA
This video was so clear and helpful. I just wanted to say thanks.
Awesome!!! Great to hear! Thank you!
That's was great very informative I'm riding a mid mount I love it the blue is awesome again appreciate your time
Nice video very informative. I just found it amusing how you kept comparing a mid drive motors shifting to a motorcycle as to I would compare it to just riding a regular bicycle.
That's why I'm planning to include 2 motors. I live in a place where there are a lot of steep roads, even competitive bikers ran out of gas before they got to the top.
Like you've said once you snapped your chain, your mid drive set up is done. You cannot pedal anymore.
Also, I might need the additional torque at the front tires for my father. He's old now, those steep roads are killer for him.
Great information and demonstration. The mid drive seems to prefer to be ridden very much like a conventional shifting bike with the addition of electric power boost.
I own a hub drive and just bought a mid drive. The biggest difference is a mid drive takes more work. On really steep hills the mid drive works better but in all other areas the hub drive works better and is faster. Right now I prefer my mid drive because it fills my fitness needs. If you are not fit and do not want to get fit, buy a hub drive. Mid drives are usually lighter and feel more like a real bike. Hub drive is like a hybrid bike / scooter.
Agreed. If ur not fit getta hub drive.
I've ridden both - each to his own but feel more in control with mid Drive. Like Specialized says it's "you".
Love the way you review bikes... thank you. The wife and I own Himiway Cruiser right now but she’s had two knees replacement and it’s hard for her to go for rides ( 15-20 miles) so we have been looking at 24” bikes. We found a Motan M-430 Step -Thru Fat Bike Cruiser. Have you done any reviews on this bike.. thanks
Unfortunately I have not reviewed that bike ☹️ looks like a nice bike though, the 24in wheels and the frame style on this StunnerX helps with accessibility for sure though, much easier for my wife (5'3") to get on this bike than my Himiway Cruiser Stepthru. I image the M430 would be quite approachable as well.
You got me hooked on your channel. Like looking at all the differant models and how they comparei natural environments. My biggest concern is not how fast but how long can I ride before I think about getting home.
Great video, great information, great education, and great perspective. Really appreciated it.
Another really helpful video, Citizen. I have a RideScoozy brand Veego 750 fatire bike that is over a year old. I see they have upgraded this years Veego 750 including going from 48 volts to 52 Volts. I wonder if you could get them to provide a loaner to you for testing. I would love to see what the improvements do.
It's nice to see how much fun you're having. E-bikes are awesome in all flavors but I'm partial to the mid-drives.
Hub drives aren't restricted to the rear. They can be located in either or both hubs.
Some settings are limited by the display unit on the bike. With a different display unit you should be able to set a higher top speed but I doubt the motor could go much faster than 32 mph except down hills.
You can get an adapter that allows you to (temporarily) connect a computer and rework many of the internal settings so you can change things like how much throttle you get in each PAS level. Some people prefer if the throttle is off in PAS 0 (I don't personally). I think your motor must be set to limit the throttle only power because on my BBS02 the throttle can move the bike faster than my pedaling (or you have stronger legs than I).
Hi Michael, I won't be messing around too much with this bike, I'll save that for the rover. This one's pretty on point as is and it's a ton of fun.
And I didn't think I would like the mid drive as much as I do 😁
I don't see why anyone gives this guy a thumbs down?
VERY nice review with lots of useful information! I think I might buy this bike.
I just bought it and I love it!!!
Very impressed, although with 120 nm of torque, I would expect top speed to be much better than 30 mph. I've seen reviews of e-bikes with 80-85 nm do more than that.
What is the range of this more powerful Biktrix ebike?
I have to say you have explained it the best. Just saying you could remove the chain and still run a hub motor that said it all. If you ride bikes all the time med drive would be smart. Hub motor would be best for beginners that are not use to shifting down everytime you come to a stop. Med drive is exciting but for a beginner hub makes sense. Thanks
Good review. Love the "Sky Blue" color bike. Thank you. Have a blessed day.
The power cut when shifting is called "torque management" in the automotive world, and it's very necessary in this application! So what is your top speed in first gear? And how does your 0 to 20 mph time compare to your Rover?
It's just like a car. Top speed in first gear depends on the gear ratio. If the ratio is high enough in 1st that you don't have to switch gears to reach 20 mph it should blow away the hub from 0 to 20. If you have to switch gears to reach 20 things even out for the hub drive.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 - You are definitely right. I don't see first gear getting past 10 mph, and with the motor cutting power for each shift, and not doing it quickly, it should be fairly close. I have the RadMini with 1,600 watts, but it has the mechanical advantage over the Rover with the smaller wheels. I usually beat cars across the intersection when the light changes, lol.
PS: I just did 0 to 20 mph timing tests for this bike, his Rad Rover, Himiway, and the RadMini.
Stock Rad Rover: 15.03 seconds
Biktrix Stunner X: 9.4
seconds
Himiway Cruiser: 8.71 seconds
Rad Rover with 35 amp controller only: 6.85 seconds
RadMini with 35 amp controller only: 4.9 seconds
Now, the Biktrix will be slightly faster if he makes a dedicated 0 to 20 run. The speed run in this video had to be timed from the moment he hit PAS 5 at a roll, so it's actually 3 mph to 19.9 mph. Starting in first will give him a stronger start with the mid drive, but every shift loses time, so starting in third gear might be better.
thank you very much now i know that mid drive is not for me can you give your opinion that should i go with rear hub drive or awd rear and front hub?
When you press the thumb throttle, is the full power either "on" or "off"? Or is power added incrementally the more the throttle is pushed?
They can be programmed any way you like but the standard is like any other vehicle...more throttle gives more speed.
@@michaelsprinzeles4022 . Not necessarily, at a complete stand still , starting at an steep incline , speed is unattainable. Lower the gear, higher cadence, will produce more efficient constant forward momentum .
another awesome video. i have a AR kepler52v1000w1800peak but want to upgrade to AWD but ididnt want the two throotles and displays. so im choosing between e-cells 1500 awd offroad(first choice), or bitrix XD DUO. what would you suggest for me im bigger person at 6 2 250. ride in pas 5 gear7 mostly on road ALOT of traffic but want to be able to take hunting too. im basically replacing atvs and only drive car when going more than 30miles. thx for your videos and help.
Got a Stunner x 6 and within 2 months the rear bearing failed and I have working for months to work it out on warranty. They sent me a replacement wheel, tire and bearing but they sent a 20x4 vs. a 20x3, and the drama continues to get the right wheel. Also the display was defective and they sent me a new one, and they stays on the front fender failed too and they sent me new stays. Also purchased a Fabulous 60V EMX Extreme dual hub drive at the same time and it has worked briliantly with now over 2500 miles.
wow, surprised with your stunner problems, the 2 bikes i received from them worked great, only issue i had was a leaky rear caliper which i just fixed on my own. i guess sometimes you get a lemon :( glad your EMX has worked out though, that is a fun bike!
Great tutorial on the hub drive vs mid drive question. I know you said and I have read numerous other sources concerning how much superior the mid drive is over a hub drive when riding up hills. Not just positive grades...I mean hills like you find in Seattle or the Bay Area. Since you have a Rad bike (as do I), would it be possible to do a comparison of your Rad bike vs this BikTrix mid drive on uphill riding/climbing? I live in the La Vegas area and many of the bike trails around here have some hills that are quite challenging to my Rad City Step-thru bike. So much so that on one of the trails I like to ride I have to resort to walking it up.
0:42 "Wonderful electric blue." Got a smile out of me.
Great Video! Thank You! I live in a very hilly Pismo Beach, CA. (Bugs Bunny always wanted to come here!) Our house sits on a pretty steep hill (1st to 2nd gear on my Mtn pedal bike) I'm 6'2" 250ibs 64YO and stuck between the Himiway Cruiser, or the BikTrix Juggernaut 750 mid drive. Which would you choose? Or is there some other recommendation? I just think a hub drive would get bogged down on my hill's and mountains... Thank YOU
If you're talking steep hills then the mid drive biktrix bike would be the better route. Very strong motor, torquie.
You mentioned North Carolina. Where are you located? Are you available for ebike consultation, service, I have a couple questions. I have a pedego element, I want to update the motor, what is entailed in doing that
Thanks
Russ
You should have looked at craigslist I listed a folding carbon fiber bike that went 36mph top speed. It will climb any hill. It was super fast
Asheville area
Neat video buddy! Really well thought out and spot on with the info about the mid drive. I've never rode a hub drive so can't comment on them but i'll take your word for it you obviously know your stuff.
My bike arrived the end of last week or the start of this week, can't remember! lol
I got the 1000w mid drive, the power you talk of is just insane!
I'm thinking i may program the settings a bit as supposedly you can make them stupid fast and even more off the chain powerful real easy. It's very tempting! Ha Ha! 😈
Mine is a very heavy bike though and will still wheelspin or wheelie on command!
The mid drive is defo not just a twist and go whenever you want deal, you have to think before you "let it loose" but the extra fun you get for doing that is soooo worth it for me.
Have a gud un! 👍
What bike did you get?
@@CitizenCycle925 I got the MD1000 that Bolton Ebikes sells in the US. I tried to get it from Bolton Ebikes first but they don't ship full bikes to the UK so i had to get it shipped from China. It's a nice bike but it's friggin HUGE!! ☺
The Bikonit bike? Aren't they based in Canada?
@@CitizenCycle925 I dunno if Bikonit is based in Canada or not. I know the bikes i am talking about came from China.
Very interesting your video. The way you explained it is perfect. Like other said a hub motor bike is a kinda like a automatic car because you just can hit the throttle and go without caring what gear you use but a mid drive motor is very interesting for the advantage it offers.
I have a hub motor e-bike I bought the last summer. I don't wanted to spend too much money on an electric bike so I bought it on Amazon for 1500$ CAD. It's just a 500w/55 nm torque e-bike but it gets the job done, plenty of power for general use, when the battery is full charge I can go ~35 km/h. You can see my bike review in my TH-cam videos. At the moment I bought my bike, I didn't really know that mid drive motor existed at the moment, I just wanted a cheap e-bike but I did'nt believe I would love cycling so much now I've got an electric bicycle. I ride over 1100 km in less than 3 months with it. Even if I have a hub motor e-bike, I still changing speed gears when I ride because I like to pedal and have a little work out, so I always help the motor by pedaling with it. Cruising on the 3rd level assist mode I ride at 22-23 km/h, I'm on the 3rd or 4th gear (I have 7 speed) and when I come to a stop I downshift to at least the 2nd speed. The only downside is when I have a good hill to climb, I have to downshift in second or first and pedaling harder to keep up if I don't want to slow down under 19-20 km/h.
This is why a mid drive motor is interesting, it's got POWER. From a logical and mechanical minded guy, the mid drive motor really fascinates me. Since it works with the bike gears, it's closer to a motorcycle or a manual car in my opinion. From what I saw, it also seems to have a better control and feeling riding a mid drive because torque sensor. With a hub drive motor if you just want to ride slow, the moment you just turn the crank, the cadence sensor activate and it feels like an on/off switch. It's not even 1 year I have my e-bike and I'm already thinking to upgrade on another bicycle lol. The extra cost for a mid drive seems to worth it. I will certainly consider a mid drive motor bike as a next purchase, whenever it will. Lol
Can you not pedal on the mid drive except for maybe when you have to change gears or do you have to pedal all if you don't want to?
Blix was my second choice before I chose Rad. Blix might be my Next Purchase. How’s the weight compared to your Rover?
My rover is loaded with accessories, clocks in around 83lbs. The StunnerX is lighter I think it was 67lbs
could you use the throttle and pedal if so would it go faster?
I've watched a few of these videos and I get the feeling that a lot of people don't understand how to use e-bikes correctly but I guess that isn't surprising because I know a lot of people can't figure out how to use the gears of a multi-gear non-electric bike. I've seen people ride these using 1 or a couple of gears.
Another great video! Great information! Thanks man!
If you already have a decent regular bike the best way to go is to just buy a mid drive motor kit and convert your bike into a ebike. It's way cheaper than a factory built mid drive bike, and you'll have better performance in top speed and torque for hills. I bought a Befang BBSO2 750w kit and converted my MTB into a hill eating trail blazing torque monster. Got a 52v 17ah battery for it. 30mph in peddle assist 2 (out of 5)
Great video, thanks!! Keep up the great work!
Was this bike a fat tire, and what did you mean to put different tires..like what kind?
Dear Citizen, ARE there any 1500watt bafeng center-hub motors ?
Hey man, can u get less range on the mid drive due to it being more powerful?
I love it I will buy one when I can.
So shifting gears without peddling can be done? Sorry for the question but I’m planning on buying an electric bike early next year. I’m 60+ and need some assisted excersize
I'm in my mid 60s with bad knees and heart so for all intent I don't peddle with any force. I have a mid drive and when shifted properly it gives me the ability to use the throttle in all situations. The objective is to reduce hard meshing the gears and it takes getting used to. It can be all but eliminated if each time you shift you casually rotate the peddles, even without actual engagement at the rear wheel. Shifting will gradually become dependably smooth the more you adapt.
Hi Citizen, Well you seem to be flush in E-Bikes! Great Review... Nice bike the Biktrix is!
The biktrix stunner X is a very nice quality e-bike. I like it a lot, very powerful too
When will the price of mid drives go down?
As a mid drive ebike owner, This guy knows what he’s talking about! You have to be very careful and ride these bikes properly! I have an even more powerful bike (Nireeka Prime) that came with a 1000w bafang ultra motor with 160NM of torque, 38mph top speed, and it can RIP thru the drivetrain. In fact, back when I didn’t know what I was doing, it destroyed my ENTIRE drivetrain, causing me to have to completely replace my wheel and all components.
Be careful out there!
thanks Chris! i did my best to explain but i'm certainly not an expert. that Nireeka bike is wicked looking! does it really only weigh 67lbs?
@@CitizenCycle925 I haven’t weighed mine myself, but it definitely feels a little lighter compared to other fat ebikes!
Here’s some pics of mine I uploaded. :)
ibb.co/album/bQHSnq
What if the chain breaks, what do you do??
So what happens if you are in a higher gear and you have to stop suddenly ? So how do you resolve it if you are in a higher gear at a stop ? If you start to pedal so you can shift isnt it going to try to apply power ?
great review thanks
Can you change the wheel size to get more top speed? I forget how but I’ve heard there is a formula to change the wheel size and get the kph to show the mph based on wheel size. That motor cuts off based on speed so changing wheel size trucks the motor into not cutting off as soon 😎
Does using those gears help with battery time
Can you just drag the brake when starting out to disengage motor and shift into correct gear?
Are any of these ebikes capable of regenerative braking? Like how cars do, so suddenly you reach a huge long down hill - can any of these bikes use that to recharge its batteries?
Cool be fun to try that out!!
Great video. Well done.
Thanks!
What engages the paddle on the
could you review the monte carpo lite
I could see myself buying a mid drive if I lived in a place like San Francisco or city with hills. But on the east coast of Virginia that much torque is not needed. With that said, I wonder how it does on sand?
i changed my settings on the bafang ultra by plugging it in to my pc and updated it so the throttle gives me max power for the assist level i am in so 1 is 500w and so on
yours is set to lvl 9 or max pas on any setting
Very informative!
What will do better climbing, Biktrix or super Monarch 1000?
I'm pretty sure the super monarch is all-wheel drive so I'm sure that would probably do better at climbing difficult hills
And what happens during emergency braking?How to switch from 9 to 1 without turning the pedals?
Greetings from Serbia
Good question. I think I will prefer hub drive.
Thank you sir!!
I do agree with this explanation . These ebike are still bikes , remember learning how to ride a bike and gear changes ? It doesn’t change just because you have an electric motor . Imagine you’re at a bottom of a steep hill with your dad’s 10 speed .. try putting keeping it in 10th and starting up that steep hill.. ain’t gonna work. Common sense should kick in at some point !
E bikes are great, but as a blue collar worker i am looking at buying for my family. I will have to buy 3 to 4 for everyone. So you can see how expensive of a investment. I don't want the cheap 600 micro size. Well great information .
Do you ever take it off any sweet jumps?
Not very often Napoleon 😁
What is the top speed throttle only in 8th gear?
does the gearing for a mid-motor give you greater range?
Of course, it adds a lot of range. I ride a 250W hubmotor and a 250W middrive with both 500Wh batteries and I get easy 1/3 more range with the middrive.
I get more range out of my mid-drive than I did with my rear hub drive.
Suuuper useful information and you did a great explanation. I was undecided about wish type of motor I need. Know I figure out that I’m more on the side of your wife 😄 Thanks!!!
will this bike work for a 6'5" tall person?
I'm sure you could ride it but it would probably feel small for you
What's the rim/tire size? if it's not 26' im out, but mid drives are great for torque.
This one is 24in but you can order this exact bike with 26x4 tires if you want
@@CitizenCycle925 24 inches must add to that feeling of torque off the line;) Smaller wheel is like a larger gear for extra torque. Must be a hoot!
Whats the range on this bike?
I guess the main thing I'd be most concerned about with all that torque is snapping the chain in the middle of a 30 mile trail somewhere. At least with the hub drive you'd have a chance of making it home without having to perform trailside repairs......
never snapped a chain so not sure how easy/difficult that is to do.
Never snapped a chain here, either, but I don't weigh 300 and climb mountains in 11th gear...