Quite the extensive guide Zanz! Heres a bit of my input, using the assumption that schematics ultimately are used to save time in a PvP gamemode. A schematic should be plopped down, connected to its required inputs and outputs, and move on. There are a few factors to consider when making a schematic. The more obvious ones are: -Schematic size - amount of parts and space limitations -Resource/power cost - the stage of the game which you can afford the build (ie early/late game) -Efficiency - *reasonably* making use of the capacity of production buildings, and make use of (almost) all of their output The less obvious factor I'd like to touch on is: -Personal preference - whether resources are injected externally or drills are included. This changes where a schematic can be placed, and changes the size/complexity of designing the schematic. ie schems which require external injections of resources allows for a smaller schematic, and flexibility of where it is placed, as well as where the resources is sourced from - core or drills another consideration can be mixed output builds, for example coal, sand, and lead can make a combination of silicon, glass, and daggers for early game. Final notes, there is no right or wrong way to make a schematic, just make it work for yourself, and how much these factors weigh in a schematic is up to you!
Since no one else mentioned it, +1 for advanced schematics. Fun to see how it breaks down for the work of others. I've make a 5 wide plastanium and was working on my 'block' to do blast compound which presently uses a tight matrix for pyratite, very basic line for blast, and a weird chain of spores on its side. I used copper belts in it as feedrate of coal in, spores in, and blast out don't need faster but does need titanium to feed sand and lead. I haven't been able to figure it out but I have had it 'stop working' after coal starving it which makes me question my knowledge of abusing item flow and only feel safe with the basic junction/overflow matrix of feeding resources around instead of the 0 storage throughput items like sorters. Thank you for this video as I liked seeing 1 piece and progressively more advanced/varying versions of it. The "let's build it" approach is best in my opinion as following bridges linkages right and similar confusing ideas of what really is happening is best explained when adding/removing pieces for discussion.
imagine just playing pvp, and youre opponent got zeniths and you built defense, but the zeniths instead of attacking the defense it just straightly ignore it and go right to the core, and when the zeniths are in low hp, they can retreat and heal, thats why logic is so op, it take less space to build a logic schem than a normal ones and more efficient, faster and just better
Problem #1 is it doesn't fit the design of the game; it's like if there was a football game where players could also earn points by solving sudoku puzzles. The whole game is about building factories and doing tower defense... except for that one part that's writing assembly code in a bad interface. Problem #2 is unattended unit control is mandatory to be competitive; there is no choice, trade off, drawback, or strategy just plain either you use the logic or you lose. Problem #3 is it undermines many other more interesting systems in the game. From a pure performance perspective, having units do all the mining and carry all the materials to factories is completely better than actually building factories, which the game is supposedly about. Problem #4 is it hides too much information. Normally, a player could pan to the enemy base, look at what's there and make an informed guess about their plans, even if it's something you've never seen before. When you see a logic block, there could be _anything_ in there. It could be changing their unit behavior in any kind of way that you can't know until after it's already happening to you. So you have to learn an entire meta about the kinds of logic setups people are using so you can guess what is in there. Which gives a huge advantage to the players that solve the sudoku puzzle of making new logic.
I agree mostly with lyoh and laro, in pvp. Are you familiar with the ranked server? When it first came out in v6 things were somewhat tame but people quickly developed more and more sophisticated logic that allowed them to subvert the other core mechanics in the game, i.e. you edit unit behavior, turret behavior, resource gathering and production, making them all smarter and faster, and if you're not using logic you'll be torn to shreds, or if you have the better logic you just win. For schemes, you can get away with something ugly, clunky, going at 80% efficiency and you still have a chance vs. someone who has really smooth, 97% efficiency schemes, you're at a disadvantage, but it's not like your turrets are just rendered useless (i.e. if someone is using logic that detects your turrets and keeps their units out of range, or has them fly home at half health and heal up, etc.) If you want to learn logic, go for it, it's fun to use, basic logic can do some cool but not insane things, I think it's interesting for campaign, survival, coop, etc. but in pvp when anyone can use any logic it's too easy to copy some extremely powerful unit controller that someone spent hours intricately writing. While it's similar with schemes, at least schemes are more approachable, you can see what's going on, can take it apart yourself, doesn't really change how units or turrets or production work from their "default" settings. Logic can be balanced if both sides have same stuff, but that kinda takes the fun out of it for me, I like making everything myself, I would even prefer a no-scheme pvp server. I tried learning logic for a while, so I could make it myself, but I gave up trying to learn once I looked at some of the best logic out there (hundreds of lines of code) and realized how it's both very complicated but also time-consuming and frustrating to navigate (jumps). Super long comment ha, but like I said I've thought about it lot. Glad you're enjoying mindustry and if you do enjoy logic, the ranked server is a great place to use it, you can pit yourself against the best other logic players (or wreck the casual players).
@@zanzibarzy2877 I totally agree with that. I've only done campaign logic and went as far as writing one to only power launchpads when filled for launch. It didn't check 20s timer but thats worked around with 1 unloader to 1 titanium belt to 2 pads gave the correct input rate. Worse was watching power level on a circuit needed to do the launch made me conclude that electricity seems to work more like its liquid mechanics than what id think for real electric system. I could launch a pad with less power drained from a system that is already lower on power but don't remember how little it needed; a fraction of a small battery was enough even though a topped off small battery took a big hit in 1 launch. I didn't go much further with logic as next step was needing a way to walk through all pads and their linked turnoff points or I had to drop a new logic per pad or trigger them all based off of the state of one. I didn't get the logic to step through all items working correctly for the documentation I read. I'd see unit logic being necessary for pvp if logic is allowed as evasion/retreat, target decision making, when to suicide to do a task, etc. are decisions players make in an rts, and if logic can do it, do it faster, and do it more (less unit grouping limitations and such) then players cannot keep up vs good logic. I agree with the 'no logic' and 'no schematic' server settings being a thing because it forces people to play the core game instead of have the game played for them by using previous work going forward, or worse using others' work to determine their game. I admit to not having done pvp but when I do, I ask 'no schematic server when?'. should we also disable in game copy+paste? I think no click+drag belt placement would be going too far but I find it faster for the tight turns around jagged terrain. An example of starcraft2 played entirely by custom written logic helps see what is good and bad; aiarenastream on twitch should show live streams of it constantly. They do tournaments and some people have done casting of those games though not sure which channels on twitch and youtube to suggest for it. The reason why this matters is those developers are given access to certain data through starcraft2 APIs and their ai decisions are based on data they get through that. There are actually a few deficiencies they had to work around like not knowing when units have upgrades so they track damage received manually to know. They got nonhuman bonuses by microing miners; think it was a 5% boost but don't remember.
Very nice effort by you love it I am new I am wondering what units to build first when to build what unit and wheter build stronger unite or weakiner unit in more quantity and which units
The hard thing on hex pvp THAT if you're still in early base. Its game over for you. They will spam zenith to your base. And also about the defence. I literally only play attack gamemode or survival and also Pvp between teams. Not hex pvp. And one thing that is hard , THE RESOURCE , you got a base right? And it got borders around it. Like I did. NO TITANIUM. Sucks bad.
Yes fair point, if you're not there at the start of the match and there are some good players, you don't have much chance, have to wait for it to restart. Although if you're playing on the Eviction server (my favorite lately) when you're late you can also type in /die and join the fallen team, where you can use all of the unclaimed map and have a boost in resources, maybe you can still have an interesting game. But if you're having trouble with expanding and defending, you might check out some of my other videos to get some tips on how I do it. And when I want to chill I play attack, survival, or team pvp as well, I just don't make videos of that
![How to Build a Massive Eco During PvP in Mindustry [Eviction Server]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/qM1JmFKcai4/mqdefault.jpg)
![How to Build a Massive Eco During PvP in Mindustry [Eviction Server]](/img/tr.png)
Quite the extensive guide Zanz!
Heres a bit of my input, using the assumption that schematics ultimately are used to save time in a PvP gamemode. A schematic should be plopped down, connected to its required inputs and outputs, and move on.
There are a few factors to consider when making a schematic. The more obvious ones are:
-Schematic size - amount of parts and space limitations
-Resource/power cost - the stage of the game which you can afford the build (ie early/late game)
-Efficiency - *reasonably* making use of the capacity of production buildings, and make use of (almost) all of their output
The less obvious factor I'd like to touch on is:
-Personal preference - whether resources are injected externally or drills are included. This changes where a schematic can be placed, and changes the size/complexity of designing the schematic. ie schems which require external injections of resources allows for a smaller schematic, and flexibility of where it is placed, as well as where the resources is sourced from - core or drills
another consideration can be mixed output builds, for example coal, sand, and lead can make a combination of silicon, glass, and daggers for early game.
Final notes, there is no right or wrong way to make a schematic, just make it work for yourself, and how much these factors weigh in a schematic is up to you!
Since no one else mentioned it, +1 for advanced schematics. Fun to see how it breaks down for the work of others. I've make a 5 wide plastanium and was working on my 'block' to do blast compound which presently uses a tight matrix for pyratite, very basic line for blast, and a weird chain of spores on its side. I used copper belts in it as feedrate of coal in, spores in, and blast out don't need faster but does need titanium to feed sand and lead. I haven't been able to figure it out but I have had it 'stop working' after coal starving it which makes me question my knowledge of abusing item flow and only feel safe with the basic junction/overflow matrix of feeding resources around instead of the 0 storage throughput items like sorters.
Thank you for this video as I liked seeing 1 piece and progressively more advanced/varying versions of it. The "let's build it" approach is best in my opinion as following bridges linkages right and similar confusing ideas of what really is happening is best explained when adding/removing pieces for discussion.
I adore your videos and am trying to learn logic myself and and would love a explanation as to why logic is over powered in pvp
imagine just playing pvp, and youre opponent got zeniths and you built defense, but the zeniths instead of attacking the defense it just straightly ignore it and go right to the core, and when the zeniths are in low hp, they can retreat and heal, thats why logic is so op, it take less space to build a logic schem than a normal ones and more efficient, faster and just better
Problem #1 is it doesn't fit the design of the game; it's like if there was a football game where players could also earn points by solving sudoku puzzles. The whole game is about building factories and doing tower defense... except for that one part that's writing assembly code in a bad interface.
Problem #2 is unattended unit control is mandatory to be competitive; there is no choice, trade off, drawback, or strategy just plain either you use the logic or you lose.
Problem #3 is it undermines many other more interesting systems in the game. From a pure performance perspective, having units do all the mining and carry all the materials to factories is completely better than actually building factories, which the game is supposedly about.
Problem #4 is it hides too much information. Normally, a player could pan to the enemy base, look at what's there and make an informed guess about their plans, even if it's something you've never seen before. When you see a logic block, there could be _anything_ in there. It could be changing their unit behavior in any kind of way that you can't know until after it's already happening to you. So you have to learn an entire meta about the kinds of logic setups people are using so you can guess what is in there. Which gives a huge advantage to the players that solve the sudoku puzzle of making new logic.
@@larofeticus well this explained everything
I agree mostly with lyoh and laro, in pvp. Are you familiar with the ranked server? When it first came out in v6 things were somewhat tame but people quickly developed more and more sophisticated logic that allowed them to subvert the other core mechanics in the game, i.e. you edit unit behavior, turret behavior, resource gathering and production, making them all smarter and faster, and if you're not using logic you'll be torn to shreds, or if you have the better logic you just win. For schemes, you can get away with something ugly, clunky, going at 80% efficiency and you still have a chance vs. someone who has really smooth, 97% efficiency schemes, you're at a disadvantage, but it's not like your turrets are just rendered useless (i.e. if someone is using logic that detects your turrets and keeps their units out of range, or has them fly home at half health and heal up, etc.)
If you want to learn logic, go for it, it's fun to use, basic logic can do some cool but not insane things, I think it's interesting for campaign, survival, coop, etc. but in pvp when anyone can use any logic it's too easy to copy some extremely powerful unit controller that someone spent hours intricately writing. While it's similar with schemes, at least schemes are more approachable, you can see what's going on, can take it apart yourself, doesn't really change how units or turrets or production work from their "default" settings.
Logic can be balanced if both sides have same stuff, but that kinda takes the fun out of it for me, I like making everything myself, I would even prefer a no-scheme pvp server.
I tried learning logic for a while, so I could make it myself, but I gave up trying to learn once I looked at some of the best logic out there (hundreds of lines of code) and realized how it's both very complicated but also time-consuming and frustrating to navigate (jumps).
Super long comment ha, but like I said I've thought about it lot. Glad you're enjoying mindustry and if you do enjoy logic, the ranked server is a great place to use it, you can pit yourself against the best other logic players (or wreck the casual players).
@@zanzibarzy2877 I totally agree with that. I've only done campaign logic and went as far as writing one to only power launchpads when filled for launch. It didn't check 20s timer but thats worked around with 1 unloader to 1 titanium belt to 2 pads gave the correct input rate. Worse was watching power level on a circuit needed to do the launch made me conclude that electricity seems to work more like its liquid mechanics than what id think for real electric system. I could launch a pad with less power drained from a system that is already lower on power but don't remember how little it needed; a fraction of a small battery was enough even though a topped off small battery took a big hit in 1 launch. I didn't go much further with logic as next step was needing a way to walk through all pads and their linked turnoff points or I had to drop a new logic per pad or trigger them all based off of the state of one. I didn't get the logic to step through all items working correctly for the documentation I read.
I'd see unit logic being necessary for pvp if logic is allowed as evasion/retreat, target decision making, when to suicide to do a task, etc. are decisions players make in an rts, and if logic can do it, do it faster, and do it more (less unit grouping limitations and such) then players cannot keep up vs good logic. I agree with the 'no logic' and 'no schematic' server settings being a thing because it forces people to play the core game instead of have the game played for them by using previous work going forward, or worse using others' work to determine their game. I admit to not having done pvp but when I do, I ask 'no schematic server when?'. should we also disable in game copy+paste? I think no click+drag belt placement would be going too far but I find it faster for the tight turns around jagged terrain.
An example of starcraft2 played entirely by custom written logic helps see what is good and bad; aiarenastream on twitch should show live streams of it constantly. They do tournaments and some people have done casting of those games though not sure which channels on twitch and youtube to suggest for it. The reason why this matters is those developers are given access to certain data through starcraft2 APIs and their ai decisions are based on data they get through that. There are actually a few deficiencies they had to work around like not knowing when units have upgrades so they track damage received manually to know. They got nonhuman bonuses by microing miners; think it was a 5% boost but don't remember.
6:14 it was a junction on a turning point not an overflow gate, the overflow/junction combo work you probably just missed it!!
Very nice effort by you love it I am new I am wondering what units to build first when to build what unit and wheter build stronger unite or weakiner unit in more quantity and which units
this is nice
yes this is
Nice
Minedustry was here
🤤🤤🤤🤤
The hard thing on hex pvp THAT if you're still in early base. Its game over for you. They will spam zenith to your base. And also about the defence. I literally only play attack gamemode or survival and also Pvp between teams. Not hex pvp. And one thing that is hard , THE RESOURCE , you got a base right? And it got borders around it. Like I did. NO TITANIUM. Sucks bad.
Yes fair point, if you're not there at the start of the match and there are some good players, you don't have much chance, have to wait for it to restart. Although if you're playing on the Eviction server (my favorite lately) when you're late you can also type in /die and join the fallen team, where you can use all of the unclaimed map and have a boost in resources, maybe you can still have an interesting game. But if you're having trouble with expanding and defending, you might check out some of my other videos to get some tips on how I do it.
And when I want to chill I play attack, survival, or team pvp as well, I just don't make videos of that
@@zanzibarzy2877 nice recommendation , I would gladly take your offer.
Oh hey zanz its max or maxime
hey hope you're doing well
Where part 2
┐(´ー｀)┌
Nice