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The Outer Limits of Cognitive Science | Dr. John Vervaeke | EP 321
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- Ep. 321
Dr Jordan B Peterson and John Vervaeke discuss entropy reduction, incremental fact gathering, systems of complexity, and the ultimate unity in the holy spirit.
John Vervaeke is an Associate Professor in Cognitive Psychology and Cognitive Science at the University of Toronto. His work constructs a bridge between science and spirituality in order to help understand the experience of meaningfulness and the cultivation of wisdom so as to afford awakening from the meaning crisis.
Dr Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: utm.io/ueSXh
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- Chapters -
(0:00) Coming Up
(1:24) Intro
(5:00) Entropy reduction
(6:30) Friston, big picture cognitive science
(9:00) Surprise and micro narratives
(14:00) Domains of measurement
(16:15) The problem with pragmatism
(19:00) Incremental fact gathering
(21:25) Spiraling pathways
(24:38) Oneness, Piaget
(27:25) Graceful degradation
(31:30) Connectivity, network organization
(34:00) Genome aging and mutation
(36:00) Gist, mutual predictability
(38:00) Nihilism, false arguments
(41:20) Cartesian reality
(43:30) levels of abstraction, meta games
(46:45) Hierarchy of unity, internal dialogues
(48:30) When a system complexifies
(52:40) Overarching harmony,
(1:01:00) Zombie complex, nature and function
(1:03:00) The function of consciousness
(1:05:00) Insight, relevance realization
(1:07:00) Adverbial connections
(1:10:00) God, Hermes, the burning bush
(1:13:15) A multitude of goals
(1:15:00) Acts of integration, profound synthesis
(1:17:00) The ultimate unity as a spirit
(1:21:00) Pluripotential Chaos
(1:24:20) Pride and suffering
(1:27:00) Self deception, heuristics
(1:29:00) Cognitive evolution, static perfection
(1:33:00) Distributed insight, humility
(1:35:30) Zone of proximal development
(1:37:00) The ides of the culmination
(1:39:00) Generative being, logos
(1:40:44) After Socrates
(1:46:00) Conditions for relevancy
(1:47:30) Practices of Socracy
(1:50:00) Profound emergence
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It's 3:00am, my family is asleep, and here I am, wide awake, 47 minutes into this, feeling this palpable, electrical storm surging inside my skull, the likes of which I've never felt before, feeling grateful to be alive and able to listen to this. For reasons not clear to me, I suddenly feel.. grateful, hopeful, and optimistic, even. Sending love and light to all of you, whoever you are, wherever you are.
Yes -This is what Jung, the New Testament, and Quantum Physic refer to when we talk of Universal Consciousness, discernment and critical thinking evidenced by the Word of the Sacred Holy Spirit via the oldest Ethiopian Coptic Bible/( Septuagint translation ) in relation to the Book of Enoch - not canonized by the RC Church, Orthodox Protestants etc….but by the Word of the Almighty Most High God, Y’shua, and Wakan Tanka, the Sacred Holy Spirit!
33:58 when 2 smart dudes volley ball their knowledge and get hyped about it ! 😅 Good shit. One of the most interesting conversations I’ve listened to. ❤ 100 😊
@@jk541beatz what did you learn from it, if it was so interesting to you?
Whoa whoa dude, I’ve only read the first few pretentious sentences from this stoner tangent you left for us in Dr. Peterson’s comment section and I just gotta say GET A FUCKN GRIP!! My goodness, what the fuck man.... stop that.. STOP That now, please 🛑...
so happy for you: now, to find people in real time to sit and discuss IDEAS that give meaning to your life/others lives. I need to be around 'chewy' conversations, myself. Even if I have to back-up and replay things, ask people to repeat their point.
You're Twitter suit is next level Dr. Peterson. Praying for you and your family as you fight the good fight. We truly live in a sad state of affairs.
You should see/hear the full Exodus series behind The DailyWire+ paywall. It is well worth the price of admission.
Lol.
Twitter Suit!
Love it
I wonder if its his choice or the wife. The cuff, the tie, the shoes, the color, I am flabbergasted ! Now that's guts !
Oh! That’s a Twitter suit! He won them, and wore them as a skin! Like a great hunter would wear a lion pelt from a lion he killed, Jordan Peterson is wearing the pelts of Twitter! 😅
Look what his daughter helped him do! Returned from hell. Thank you Jordan and family. Love and prayors out.
I began my college life in computer science but found I did not like computers very much and elevated my minor of Psychology to my major. This was 1968 and a little thing called Vietnam altered my life trajectory away from psychology. My aging mind comes alive listening to your discussions. Thank you Dr. Peterson.
Bless you
I was trained by Vietnam vets in the NAVY..1990 BOOT CAMP.. DANGEROUS BUNCH .
Thank you for being here :>
Here are some of my favourite bits from this magnificent conversation:
1. All opposites coincide in infinity.
2. The meta opponent processing is best modelled by a Symphony.
3. Suffering is inherent to us. Our finitude, our eternal ignorance and inevitable blindness, our failure to hit the mark.
4. Wisdom is how effectively you put your understanding of your inevitable suffering into a balanced ecology of practices.
5. Consciousness switches on when something axiomatic has moved.
6. The link between JPs Hierarchy of Goals and JV recursive evolving attention. How our frames update at criticality with respect to our nested goals.
Such a wild universe we live in. What a ride...
Thank you for your bullet points. To do so seemingly quickly and easily shows your intelligence. This is how I remember studying and memorising for exams in secondary / high school.
@@tlaloc_1 Basically, to deal with suffering, we build up processes and practices that help us lessen that suffering, and these processes and practices interact with one another. Hence "ecology."
Does that help?
Truth is infinite. Eternity is infinite. The have no opposites. All opposites of Truth are an illusion. How can an illusion be considered anything but a perception. Perceptions change with understanding. Perceptions cannot be infinite. Only Truth can be infinite. Truth has no opposite. Read A Course In Miracles (ACIM). It will enlighten you how to unlearn the world and return to Truth!
I would add another important bit, at least for me.
7. The brain doesn't try to predict the world, it tries to predict itself in the interaction of the world.
I feel that is touching a bedrock of understanding and enlightenment of conscious experiences.
@@AppleOfThineEye Basically, to stop suffering from whatever you "think" to be suffering is stop "thinking" about it. In fact whatever you think is "hurt' is just the picture the idea you have about that which you assume to suffer from.
Some of us believe in you Jordan Peterson. Some of us will gladly stand shoulder to shoulder with you in your fight against all that's wrong in our country's and world today. We know of the hell you have survived and we have a powerful understanding of that hell. Ty for speaking up when so many others are to weak to fight or just unwilling to risk losing. Good luck 👍
Don't believe in JBP (that's cult mentality) believe in the good principals he espouses.
Your idols will always disappoint you.
@@extraspecialk3244 you always must believe in not only the principles in a vaccuume but in the man who embodies them as well.
A soldier must believe in his officer, the officers mist believe in the generals and so forth.
And a significant number of us that are willing to stand shoulder to shoulder together, in and amongst our brethren, in solidarity with Dr. Jordan Peterson are real, conservative, logically-minded, intelligent and UNOPPRESSED women. I am preparing by bettering myself to be able to defend our champion if need be.
@@Humanaut. ok well prepare to be disappointed then 😕
@@sheilareyes5511 well stated all you need not my validation. I will be glad to stand with another fighter
A conversation so intense it makes me feel like my five year old self at the dinner table, listening to grown ups conversations and not knowing what the heck they're talking about, but still loving every word of it 😂
Listening to this makes me feel dumb, like it’s a foreign language I haven’t learned yet. 😁
What did you learn from it?
@@ladyguerlain3707 , hi from Ukraine. That’s really difficult for me but also a pleasure to listen to this conversation
listen to it again more will come to sense.
I was so captivated by these two discussing things I had mostly never heard of that I stayed for the duration. There is something hugely inclusive about watching two highly educated and intelligent people so excitedly sharing their opinions - no matter the topic. And I agree with your dinner table concept absolutely.
============================
[EDITED 3 weeks later]
My initial, brief comments seem to have attracted something of a storm. Not intended.
@VonJay appears to be rather hungry for trashing J.P. as a fraud, based on a rigorous physical-science-based description of entropy.
I have recently pondered about why the immutable law of entropy is so well defined, while no-one seems to agree that without the imposition of 'ORDER' by conscious minds (be it God or other), that our lot as humans would be rather pointless. Similarly, where from and why does the planet teaming with competing life and vibrancy even exist - when its mostly agreed-upon age is some billions of years. How does entropy factor into that?
I can only surmise that the ridiculous WOKE policies, where commanding the populous by LAW to follow illogically entropic (rather than definitive categorizations) for genders will NOT en-'gender' freedom of speech in any logical way. To me, it is one of the most oxymoronic concepts I have ever learned of in recent years.
So to conclude this rant, I do believe Dr. J.P. is quite entitled to temporarily highjack the word "entropy" as a word DEVICE to illustrate his viewpoint/s. He is after all a SOCIAL scientist, not a scientist of any note in the physical disciplines.
And I believe - as do millions of others - he is currently a voice in the wilderness w.r.t. pointing out why we - globally - are so very WRONG - about so many aspects of human life and wellbeing. WE ARE NOT ROOTED IN THE PHYSICAL REALM. We are OTHER.
I love watching their body language when one of them makes a point that excites the other. They always point and lean forward and start to move around because you can tell it's feeding them in their intellectual pursuit of the truth/meaning of the conversation. Very cool stuff
Yes, being in the moment, face to face, with others, does this!
It was cartoonish 😬
seriously man, listening to the podcast versus watching it are two completely different experiences
@@cliffytech which one is less cringey?
Ha ha he he
Finally! I get to see you meet a worthy opponent in hand gymnastics, of which I think it's a tie. The way you both move your hands like conductors, organizing and sharing your brilliant thoughts and perspectives. I just loved this chat. Grinned the whole time, while being educated, illuminated, and mind blown. Thank you both 💜
😅
So much touching when things get serious
As a proud Italian I can say they are pretty good amateurs in hand gymnastics.
The hand composers of interlluctual enlightening speech
yes, it's called Gesticulating. Enthusiastic, deep thinkers & oral types seem to do it most often.
God, how much do I enjoy the intelligent conversation between grownups and how much do I miss it in daily life!
Who needs intelligent conversation when you have the superbowl?
I wish I had people in my life that wanted to be able to discuss these topics. I’m just a truck driver in a world of people who have no interest in making progress in life.
That SUIT transcends time and space
If dress styles are cyclical, then
that suit doesn’t prove he’s a monster; he’s just ahead of the curve. (Name that reference)
On GOD
Fitting that he calls it the Twitter suit 😂
Shoes are awful as well. I think his daughter is his stylist. He needs a new stylist...
Right!!
Me. Peterson; You have become an extremely important part of my life. You have made many things that I have wondered about make more sense to me. You bring into my awareness sooo many things I had never thought of. This expands and enriches my mind. I love learning and you do an excellent job of explaining!God bless you.
Agreed!
But, who dressed him for this!?
@@jimdeiner9293 😂
@@jimdeiner9293😅LOL! However, I ADORE his unique tastes in wardrobe! This 1 is a little loud, but who cares!?! Takes confidence to Not dress like all the other boring, mindless sheep! 😉🤙💜🖤💫
LUV IT. SOOOO SNAZZY
Every time you interview Mr. Vervaeke, there is so much life-changing information that I have to listen to it several times in a row. I listened to this one twice while I worked last night and feel I need to listen again several more time. Great stuff!
I love seeing John Vervaeke speak with JBP on these topics because not only can he match his intellectual rigor but also match his fervor and passion in getting to the bottom of understanding more of it.
I have yet to see someone match Vervaeke’s intelligence though
I'm tempted to reach out to both of these men to have them coauthor a book based on this discussion.
@@mggh54g5
Well, you might not admit it but it's obvious that Jordan Peterson is as intelligent as Vervaeke. Their conversant alone proves that.
@@mggh54g5 Iain Mcgilchrist
@@mggh54g5 intelligence isn't just measured based on one category though. So it would be impossible for you to even have a real knowledge of vervaeke's intelligence, and because of that, you can't determine who can or cannot match it.
John Vervaeke was my first year Psychology professor at Toronto, amazing and very educated person; made psychology fun. It was my highest mark first year and it was my first intro to psych ever.
It is a pleasure to see two men jumping to one another and touching one another like so, they look like street philosophers :) beautiful.
Dr. Peterson, with absolute respect, the mystery attracting my attention is that new suit you're wearing. Have I fallen into a trap?
@@jefftaves4003 It's his "Twitter Suit."
So lucky!
@@jefftaves4003 The suit game is getting a little out of hand with Dr. Peterson, I must agree
This whole conversation was meta exposure therapy for the whole audience to realize they can handle this level of depth.
Thank you Thank you Thank you for recording and publishing yet another brilliant conversation!
I love how deep this goes! And it answered a couple of questions I never would have found the answer to.
It's so AWESOME that regular people like me can enjoy the conversations between such extreme intelligent and educated people!
If all college professors were of this level of intelligence, wow... what a beautiful world we would live in! 🤗
Just get addicted to benzos bro. You'll see and tase music. Then you'll learn the ultimate questions of life like good hygiene is good. The most obvious things will be seen by your eyes as Jesus law or something 😂. Why do you think there is only 1 peterson? Yeah he is an abuse victim who got addicted to pills buddy. The drugs while being an actual intellectual blew up his mind.
OMG SO TRUE!
i kindly recommend looking at the beauty that does exist. there is beauty all around us
I'm not sure it would be such a beautiful world Lisa . I can foresee future generations of graduates , with their enlarged craniums becoming some global elite , lauding it over us "pea-brains " , although the hat industry would no doubt experience a renaissance before it became fully automated . I'm also wondering if an increase in intelligence has a detrimental effect on dress sense , I mean what is going on with DR Peterson's suit ? , he's normally such a snappy dresser .
@@PClanner it's worse, he believes pretending to believe in fairies is somehow irreplaceably beneficial on a fundamental level
Jordan peterson saying “its my twitter suit” is the best thing I’ve heard so far this year 😂
Blue skies smiling at me, nothing but blue skies do I see 😉
I love the blue suit with white 💙 blue expression white peace💖lots of wisdom 🙏
I can't help thinking of Buddy the elf.
A bit much for me, but knowing a bit of his mind, it is "in your face"
LOL, beautifully talored, Tiffany blue, hmmm.
@@areyouavinalaff Thats a pretty smart yet deep in trauma psychosis buddy I ever did see 😂. But yes. When men see hell we become children. Rip.
I love how their minds get ahead of themselves but are able to catch up on each other through speech. The minds are having their own conversation and through words are able to articulate it clearly.
It is like a cognitive dance. Each can see where the other is leading.
That's what had me on edge!!! 😂 I was like, "I hope they circle back to that one point to finish it so they can both get useful information out of it"
Im so thankful for having people like jordan on this planet. Whereas most try and fail to illuminate the future, he illuminates the past. And every time John is on, im astounded, what a genius. Keep up the good work 👏
There is a shortage of people in this world who are willing to go deep into an existential conversation. These videos are great!
I 100% agree with you! I'm so glad I've stayed true to that part of myself because I've found people like myself and our relationships are authentic and bring fourth so much growth between us
Too many people have lost the ability to reason deeply. Sound, deep reasoning is required for there to be truly meaningful communication about existential topics. This kind of thinking is not being taught in most schools anymore.
Agree ! Very few people would have the guts to sell out so publicly. Spend his money on a clown costume during a time when he thinks he can “relate” to normal people. Charge young men hundreds of dollars and studies the exact situAtion where in but caved in. Very smart.
Very sad but true
There is only a shortage in your lives ... Your looking at these gentlemen and thinking that there aren't many....that's not true. There just aren't many around you.
This level of discussion is next level. Look at the millions of people who are interested.
I know millions follow JP, but it sure shows lower viewership
The outfit is next level too.
Doesnt k mean thousand ? 🤣
@@lindathivener8742 He is the top male educator on applepodcasts... and the top educator podcast on many others like spotify i believe also.
you wont see the millions it already got just here 🧠
@@dawn-mariestevens4573 People are not going to only see it here.. 🧠 its on a lot of other areas to listen
These guys are just wonderful. I love in particular the last part of the dialogue, the focus on virtue and transformation as distinct from propositional-brainy acquisition of knowledge. Thanks 🙏🏾
Great conversation. It's so amazing to see Dr. Peterson resurrected and thriving after all his health issues. I'm sure he well understands and can easily teach now the book of JOB. Love this channel. I really would like to complete my schooling at your University.
Job is such a wonderful book.
I have read it 100 times and every time is "see" new things.
The Bible reveals itself, through itself in such wonderful awakening and inspiring ways it is beyond this world and verbal ability to purvey it.
God bless you!
Even if they take away a title, they cannot take your knowledge. So glad to watch this conversation. 😊
Like taking away a title from a black belt and pretending they can't fight anymore.
@@NixonsHead By complaints that did NOT come from any of his patients.
If anything, the institution will be removing its own title.
When you realise how educated these gentlemen are. It was breath taking
I would call them Intelligent .. Cause you can read all the literature that exists but being able to connect the data into a logical thought is a different thing.
It's self-awareness development, where they're getting as deep as they can get into every nook and cranny they can.
it's simply their respective tao, unique in everyway ... you and each of us have one ourselves, make it shine
scholars of trivia
I would argue that it’s not the education which makes this conversation special. It’s the way that each of them has integrated what they’ve learned into their worldviews, and how well those worldviews complement each other.
These gentlemen are building and enhancing on Professor Peterson’s Maps of Meaning, bringing in overlaid networks, self-organising criticality, musicology and Spiritual Consciousness. Lots of interwoven and brilliant metaphors here with relevant citations. Thank you.
I could’t understand everything that was discussed here but it’s been a while since a conversation got me hooked like this. Felt like the technical conscious side of Jung’s unconscious union of opposites. Thank you both ❤
Dr. Vervaeke has truly mastered the art of meditation being able to calmly interact with a person wearing that suit.
@JordanBpeterson3 Hi. About what? How would you like to connect?
Lol
At 36:24:
Jordan Peterson basically describes the mechanism that allows for cancer cells to develop in the human body.
As long as the mutations are "fringe" and not "core" the body will leave the cell alone.
Cancer is the result of each generation of a cell passing on "acceptable" mutations. Eventually the cell is wildly different than the original.
With humans, the main soruce of cancer-causing mutations is chronic oxidative stress resulting from constantly eating carbs and seed oils.
Other factors like radiation and polutants contribute as well, but diet is, by far, the most significant factor.
🤣
As a man who reached out and "tapped" another man's pinky..........I don't think he's easily startled by a teal suit......
I hope Vervaeke gets the publicity he deserves, for all of our sakes.
This.
Although unlike Jordon, i believe he's far less tempted by the sin of fame
I keep thinking about this. I feel like him going mainstream would have such an important impact on the workd
Well, I hate to sound prejudiced… but these conversations will never be mainstream. The average person couldn’t follow it. Nor would they even have the inclination to try.
@@mggh54g5 it’s the very depth of these discussions that will keep them from ever “going mainstream.”
Can you even begin to imagine if the world of education was full of people with this dedication to truth?
I hope this starts that
@@RobertLambertsonofficial 4 weeks later and I'm hearing the leader and CEO of RussiaToday saying Ukranian children should be drowned in a river 😂
I am that dedicated and have even deeper truth to reveal.. I just have no degree due to the fact that my experience is from real life not just from studying concepts. I have no interest in popularity or the system so getting people to listen to someone they haven’t heard of before is difficult.. I have nothing against these guys or what they do but I can go way deeper into every subject they talk about without losing people with extravagant concepts in the words. I keep it easily understood and every subject that I’ve ever seen people talk about pertaining to mind, energy and truth, I have much better information. I’m not saying this for fun. I’m saying it because it’s true and I feel that I owe it to people to offer it. Instead of anybody wanting to know they put me down because they want to protect their favorite speakers. What I wish they’d understand is that I’m not trying to talk bad about or attack anyone’s favorite speakers. I’m just going deeper and I can back it up with fact as well as provide solutions for every problem. I can’t force anyone to act in the right way or listen to the right information. That’s on them. I find people say they want answers but won’t listen when someone offers them openly and for free to everyone.
nothing would get done lol
It is. Just not everyone. It's like saying what if every doctor was the best neurosurgeon. It's impossible
it's wonderful to watch the two of them kind of cross-pollinate each other's thoughts and encourage each other to bring their ideas together.
I think these two together produce the deepest conversations needed for the meaning crisis. It's also my favorite JP content.
There is a level of mutual understanding that is unprecedented in Peterson’s arsenal of interactions.
@@MrB00mbang I agree and I think it’s perfect because less time juxtaposing back and forth allows the conversation to go deeper.
Amen.
I wish Peterson would drop the politics and go all in on the meaning and myth stuff
Less money there tho...
@@KalebPeters99 i think he can't help but be the archetypal father
We love you Jordan, keep doing what you are doing 🥰👏🏼👏🏼
What a pleasure to listen to inteligent human beens discuss Deep matters, It was a Joy listening to you guys
It was maximum effort to follow these two gentlemen -much smarter than I. Enjoyed the back and forth.
Watching and listening to these two is like a fireworks show, each idea exploding forth rapidly and in spectacular fashion. Not gonna lie, had to pause at points because of the density of information, these are true masters at work.
for me it was like watching 2 people have a conversation in Spanish... I recognize enough of the words to kind of understand what the conversation is about but it would really help to have subtitles at the bottom of the screen translating it to layman’s terms 😅
@@youtubemom497 lol for sure...the first 6 min JBP went into a psych dissertation about dopaminergic responses and entropy. Translation; you feel good when you're organized and getting closer to achieving your goals, ambitions and responsibilities.
Well said 👌
@@WigganNuG ah ok! 💡translation-make your bed 😄
Yeah ..real serious bs .🤪🤣
It feels like these videos are made for people like me. I’m a Tradesmen not an academic. This conversation is super complicated for me yet I’m almost keeping up with it. I’ve learnt that’s the zone of proximal learning thanks to JBP. Just incredible. Thoroughly enjoyable and I’m so appreciative of these beautiful videos. I can’t thank you enough.
Thank god for people like JBP and John Vervaeke.
Amen, with you.
I have 2 degrees and I can't keep up every minute deserves hours of contemplation. Degrees count for nothing against the desire and enjoyment in learning.
I don't know any of the terms, concepts or academics mentioned here, but they built the talk from the roots of biology, and it's all about paralelisms so it linda make sense in all levels.
Just what they said about music, i don't neet yo know how to play to listen, vibe, and like it.
I'm with you. I didn't have the opportunity for schooling, but these sort of videos bring me there. I can do my own research, study these, what I would equate to as "modern essays".. I can simultaneously provide for my family, build and create in various trades I go through, and have pretty deep education. Then we can can even go onto the internet and debate our ideas and learn to write freely (well sometimes big tech doesn't like that).
You only feel like that because they're actually saying nothing. Jordan is the king of bloviation. If the listener cannot easily comprehend the speaker is at fault.
You have the voice to teach this Jessie it’s powerful when you read the Words spoken by Jesus to the 7 churches! It’s so clear to those that will hear . Thank You, today the physical churches hardly ever speak these words in their pulpits . Look forward to more of your teachings! GBY ! ❤️
My two favorite people. I have learned so much from these guys. Much love. ❤
I wish I had parents like these two. I just turned 40 and feel like a 17 year old because I’ve suffered so much emotional trauma that stunted me for 38 years. Just in the last two years when I started to resolve trauma did I start finally learning and not living out of my feelings . When you’re mind isn’t replaying programming constantly ,you grow. Or maybe you grow and your mind stops replaying the bad. I don’t know. Point is , there is a universe of knowledge and ways of thinking that are so out of my depths of reality that I don’t even think I know anything. I think my whole experiences of life have been so subjected to lenses and filters of my programming I just couldn’t comprehend more at the time. Which leads me to question EVERYTHING now. I don’t have people that think like this around me and I wish I had people like these two to talk to. I’m so thankful for the intellectuals that have shown me their is hope in recovery .
People with significant trauma young seem like they are pretty likely more observant regarding some sense and quickly learn to mimic resulting in relative talents much quicker but even better than that, do so with less mimicry and more original creativity. Though its not for me alone to say, there are positive possibilities from negative things that are not available to the stable core. It often sucks being very high iq if not around other like minds...
Your not alone. Believe it gets better. I listen to "Grace For Purpose" here on TH-cam everyday. It's healed me beyond belief.
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, having built my life on the rock that is His word, you can know the truth of eternal life in Him. This brings the bullet proof love and joy in trials as The resurrected King joins you in your journey. God bless you
Hey what you said spoke to me. It seems there are others out there than can relate it seems, maybe the internet is not such a bad thing. Ha! Wanna be pen pals?
m stuck too.. for 10years after going through horrible traumatic experience..
This is absolutely amazing. I seriously think we need to lock John Vervaeke, Karl Friston, Jordan Peterson, Michael Levin, Ian Migilchrist, Bernardo Kastrup, Rupert Sheldrake, Terrence Deacon, and Donald Hoffman all in a room together for a week. My bet is that's how you solve the hard problem of consciousness and more😅
We are truly living in a golden age for wisdom.
As well as the dark ages of stupidity.
@Lievel very true. The yin to the yang ☯️
What Sheldrake content do you recommend? He's only ever lightly rang my bells.
Add Joe Rogan, Elon Musk, and Lex Fridman , and a heroic dose of psilocybin for everyone in the room. I would join their cult haha.
@@sandywitch don’t know if Joe would be interested personally in participating in that level of discussion. However he’d make a good waypoint and officiant for the group discussion. So would Lex, though Lex is more in the realm. A better participant than Joe. Joe is really good at conversation, and smart in the ways he navigates that. He’s not especially academic though. It’s part of what makes him talking to academics is so interesting. They can’t stay in the realm of complex and specific definitions. They have to speak in ways that are more accessible.
A master class in searching for overlapping agreement between 2 rather different approaches. The transcript is useful..So many incomplete threads. John Vervaeke is very polite and tolerates Jordan B Peterson's sometimes somewhat frenetic attempts to make the Theories connect. Great respect for both as I only have a shallow grasp of some of the concepts. Thank you BOTH very much.
Thank you so much for everything you do, Dr. Peterson.
Holy crap. I don’t know what I didn’t understand from this. You both make complicated subjects so simple that I will end up confusing myself making sure I really understood what I was listening to. Brilliant minds, both of you.
I couldn’t express this feeling better… they simplified such extremely complex concepts, and now I’m left wondering if my understanding is an indication of high intelligence, and such low intelligence that I don’t realize how little i understand after all lol
@@MagzUpBr33zy exactly!
above my ability to understand.... today anyway
If this blew your mind, I highly recommend Professor Irwin Corey.
With a title so compelling, it was a moral imperative that I LISTEN and watch
And learn
My goal is to use “moral imperative” in normal conversation at least once each day for the next week.
This is the best conversation I think I have ever heard. I really wish these were the type of conversations we had in my psych classes and I can’t wait for his academy to start up.
Better yet, read the bible with FAITH, and you will actually understand what these two wretched sinners are talking about.
The key to life is the word.
The word put on Flesh and dwelt among us-
He is the judge, jury and executioner.
He is the light of the world.
Deny yourself and take up your cross
What an amazing conversation filled with truth, fat love, generosity, and integrity. I love you all, especially you Jordan Peterson.
I absolutely love Vervaeke because of him i have started a meditative a contemplative and a movement practice in my recent life. Love is distillation of complex ideas
I'd love to hear you elaborate on that last sentence there
Where did that definition of love come from? Seems like an attempt to rationalize, intellectualize or simplify a transcendental or spiritual concept. Wouldn't love be that which drives the distillation of complex ideas?
Oops as much as I'd like to have a better explaination, I ment to say "his" ... I ment I love his distillation of complex ideas.. what a typo...
I cannot overstate how absolutely mind blowing it is to watch minds like this at work.
@Textabovenumber
It's your sentence structure that fails to convince the demographic you're trying to attract. It's immediately obvious to anyone that reads your messages that you're either wholly uneducated or that English isn't your native language. By not polishing your English language skills, you're setting yourself up for failure.
I love the quick intellect.
Same here. Its like a sword fight.
What did you learn from it?
@@delian66 pick your opponents wisely 😄
wow !!!! I had to rewind this several times, very high level and amazing conversation! thank you both!
Love the intensity, almost excitement, with which they're talking. An almost childlike (in a good way) joy in discovery.
"over privileging innovation as opposed to integration". That rings so true for me. I am a psychology student from Denmark, and last year's semester was cognitive psychology everything was so fragmented, multiple mini theories as it was called over the old grand theories. It just seems that it has gone too much in the direction of mini theories because it felt like you were learning one thousand different trivia or facts about cognition, but nothing to bind it together or give it more practical utility.
You might enjoy the work by Gregg Henriques then!
Sapolsky also does a fantastic job in "Behave" to put multiple theories on different levels of analysis into a coherent view.
(Former psychology student who had to study cognitive science to understand how to put it together)
Does that mean, that you don't think people should have right to their patent and invention? If so, please come to China. Where your invention helps the country and everyone benefits not just you.
Yesss!!! Well said, Tommy Aaquist 😎😎😎
That's the problem with America, they believe, collaboration stifles, innovation, and keeping secrets is the best way.
The problem, or one of the many problems is, I believe, that people have a hard time letting go of the mechanistic view of human cognition. On many levels and with many things it works. Right? Thats how we come up with technologies, based upon machines based upon natural processes that work with other processes in a frankly mechanical way. But at the lowest points of...everything we are finding...Quantum entanglements...most of what we percieve turns out to be...macroscopic manifestations of One thing/substance/force. Mankind is smart enough to be able to think out of the box, but we can't actually get outside with mind/body intact and confirm our suspicions/theories! It's a quandary. Psychology has the conundrum of making humanities...consensual dream of reality connect with the phenomenal natural world existing outside it. To confound things more, at the Quantum level, it seems our thoughts can effect the natural world. Thought IS A PROBLEM, however. Because few ever think to control Thought as rigorously as we would the parts of a machine. I propose a new science focused upon the mastery of...Uber critical thought, with the aim of reshaping physical reality at some point...sounds suspiciously like newage mysticism doesn't it? But, it's arguable that the ancient mysticisms put aside in the age of science may have had considerable utility. Devils advocate and auto didact that I am, I'll say...why can't we have both paradigms?
I am going to watch this video another 2 times at least. I didn’t think Dr. Peterson could impress me anymore then he already had, but this conversation is off the charts. Dr. Peterson’s verbal skills is off the charts. Then when he gets excited, passionate, whatever one likes to call it he starts to talk super fast. I had to rewind a couple parts a few times already.
Dr. Peterson you out did yourself in this one. I’m very interested in where you are going next with educating us. Thank you so much❤ I have endless love for you & your family. Just so kind to us how you share so much.
This conversation is a miracle, right here, before our eyes right into our ears. I mean, all that is covered here, or un-covered, is worlds of understanding: miraculous. I will be listening to it over and over, writing it down, taking my time, etc. If this conversation could be absorbed by enough people, it seems like the world could transform: transcend. Infinity reaching out for us. Thank you so much.
This was NOT Jordan's isolated conversation.........to negate the other side of "the coin" is folly....not much is new under our sun.
Dr. Peterson, the last few years in my life were full of the pain that comes with the "waking" process....the realization of the reality that IS scared me, it scares most people I know. Your way of speaking, thinking and discussing has saved me from my cynicism. You know how important what you do is and you do it, and well at that. Thank you. Thank you thank you thank you, for being you.
A. Wyland
It's 1:15 in the morning and I've been going around the house quitely puting things back in its place and now folding a ton of laundry. I'm bot even half way thu the video and I'm not always sure I understand what exactly is being said but I feel the importance and of what do understand I find so interesting. I'm so greatful for this content and for Jordan!
@@marisolguzmanmontoya3138 How kind of you! Thank you! 💛
I hadn't run across Dr. Vervaeke's work before so thank you for featuring him as a guest. The discussion of the brain shifting and tuning neural networks to balance predictability and entropy and allow leaps of intuition was particularly interesting.
Just passing by to confirm that the conversation has indeed transcended time and space as I'm here 7 days later in Brazil and watching this masterpiece unfold.
Ha! Clever!
A huge thank you to the intellectuals for researching, theorizing, and debating things I've felt to be true since early childhood, since before the internet.
I enjoy both of you so much, but this is the first conversation together I’ve seen thank you so much you both are so uplifting for my life
Its so hard to exist in this culture when these are the only things i really care to think or talk about. For the first time in a while I felt like i was involved in a stimulating conversation, even though I'm not involved! This was really a pleasure to watch. Wow. Thank you both. I'm definitely going to check out John's series it sounds amazing.
Very well stated 🕊🌺🕊🙏🏽🕊🌺🕊
What did you learn from it?
There was this 'Lyceum movement' in the early 19th century, then the 'Chautauqua movement' later that century. 'Salons' used to be a thing, besides public lectures: early salons in the Enlightenment were where women gained educations, reading, discussing, critquing each other, but holding salon since has evolved in meaning. A century ago, getting into some salon-societies was a real gift. And here's another, for us.
This is like a virtual salon, where we all get to sit back and take this in, then discuss amongst ourselves.
Imagine if radio had developed THESE kinds of talks (vs what devolved into talk radio in the 1970s, and what THAT became, over the last 50 years.)
Oh my yes: more of this, please. What our intellects have been craving. Actual concern about meaning, and how to find it, and how its structured.
The 5 episodes by John on the "Jim Rutt Show" and his TEDx talks are a good place to start imho
I really don’t see this conversation as anything different than what’s out there. In that first 10 minutes of the convo, Peterson described (and I know he’s quoting someone else but he doesn’t give the correct definition in the process) entropy as “disorder” or a measure of it. Which is completely false. The analogy fits only in certain situations and doesn’t hold true in most situations, or even in all the situations where “order” or “disorder” occurs. So it’s an inaccurate way to look at or define entropy.
He then makes more deductions based on an inaccurate definition. “Positive Emotion decreases entropy because the traveled distance to your goal creates more order?” What??? That makes absolutely no sense thermodynamically.
The trick is that certain audiences don’t know the definition of it, just like he doesn’t know the definition, but he then dresses the false definition with big words and conviction. This is what convinces you that it’s an intelligent conversation. Though he is quoting someone’s work he takes no effort in solution the audience with the true definition or divulge if he even knows what entropy means.
So in conclusion, this conversation is as stupid as the ones by people who aren’t even pretending to be intelligent.
On Nihilism “ I’m using a counterproductive frame of reference and that is what my nervous system is signalling to me “ - This quote was absolute gold and, it put into words something I live by intuitively 🔥
Yeh that hit something I've never been able to verbalise on the head.
As if certain phrases worked like neurotransmitters binding into our language receptors and triggering a new mode, never seen before?
As if we woke up upon hearing a secret key - like that robot child from A.I. movie.
Still, being productive should come from proper motivation: "doing nothing is better than being busy doing nothing". Lao Tzu
I hope you are not wasting your time
Very powerful. Thank you Dr. Jordan. Thanks John.
This is one of those videos that takes far longer to watch than the alloted time advertised; you have to keep pausing to think on and digest a point that's been made. Really excellent stuff. Thank you both.
A few minutes in and am so psyched that JBP seems to be allowing the dialogue to breathe more than he has during previoius chats with JV. I wish both of these men all the best. We need them.
Yeah for real I was excited for a redo of this convo cause the last one was rough to listen to
i really like that jordan tries to tweak how he handles debates/conversations. its actually cool to see that theres thought behind what someone is doing
Forget about the fact that Jordan Peterson is one of the most brilliant thinkers of our most recent time, but his fashion is becoming completely unbelievable. Especially for a man who tries to maintain a firm grip on traditional aspects of life. And I must say that I am completely on board and enjoy watching his physical transformation.
That suit !
@@kevinbaisdon8767 And the sneakers! 😂
Agreed! His topics and delving into them are mind-blowing AND he's a joy to look at! His "new" ideas are punctuated by his new fashion. He's a man for out times. His logo is amazing, too! The 3 cameras and editing, too, are wonderful!
Very enjoyable! Now to listen again and gather a few more of the things I didn't gather the first time! Thank you gentlemen!
A soundbite straight from the heavens to my ears. 🙏🏽
Hands down the deepest/best (I struggle to find the right word here) conversation I have heard in my life to date. Thank you for having and sharing it.
Same here, I was blown away! I haven’t watched these discussions unfold completely and was taken back by their explanations on some difficult to grasp topics. Way better than any film I could have put on tonight haha
It’s over my head 😢. I just can’t understand this one
This is such a meta conversation. Your discussion about oscillating between highway circuits and block by block connections, theories and step by step proofs, insight and step by step facts, and even “meaning” or “the one” and individual actions, ideas, or pursuits. It’s like music in motion! You two inspire me!
Ahhhhh yes... it feels like the listening version of reading some of dickens's gargantuan sentences that multi- tangent a tangent with many various elements about a tangent, all to come back onto the developing manifest of the point of a sentence. Ive never fit with people. It's great to see what that exclusion looks like for others.
Twas all Greek to me indeed.
What a FULL and complex conversation. I almost kept up. Thank you so much for such a stimulating and enlightening discusssion. Dr Peterson, I'd be very interested to hear your take on the work and understanding of Rudolf Steiner if you ever took on looking at his work!
The hand gestures (from you both) transcended more time and space than I had ever though was possible.
I'm loving how JP is brave ,bright and interesting these days in his attire when I used to watch him in lectures talking about pinochio and narcissistic mothers he had straggly hair and grey cardigans... I love this it's exciting and present and letting the dissenters know he's here to stay
It's an amazing suit.
I wonder what brand.
Most probably not Italian looking at the sleeve inset...
Who's face is on the tie? Anyone? 😃
It suits him really well too. He'd be a great model!
@@neva.2764 I believe you but I think the suit is awful. But I admire that he'd wear such clothing. Anyway it doesn't matter. This man is a legend.
@@maggiemessenger7921 I think its a nice suit. The shoes though...lol
@@neva.2764 Quite possibly a one of a kind made by a tailor. Remember JPs obsession with iconography?
His suit is obviously designed to not be itchy, tight, constricting, or functionless. I see pockets, padded edges, stretchy materials.
This is one i will be revisiting over time. This conversation sounds like a revered piece of classical music that will inspire multiple generations; an absolute bombshell in content of conversation, multiplied by its magnitude of importance.
Two soloists wielding linguistic instruments, exploding into a crescendo in an attempt to capture all that is.
Thank you deeply. I have so much to think about. This life never ceases to amaze me.
Dude i'm in my second listen pausing to write the stuff i'm thinking of.
if you meet Buddha, kill him.
@@accadia1983 lmao he'd probably say something like "ah yes, reunited with the nothing that is all"
He's describing a state of pure consciousness that I have also experienced. I'd love to talk more about that.
Wow! I’m almost smart/educated enough to grasp this conversation but, OMG, it tough for me… reaching up is a good thing. Thank you!!
Thank you Jordan and Daily Wire for these videos.
daily wire is a white male far right identity politics channel. Are you a political activist?
Thanks jordan, there isn't nearly enough boring conversations with jews on the internet.
I love to listen to those talks I am finally starting to ponder questions!
One of the best conversations i have heard in a really long time. Thank you for sharing this.
Love your content Dr. Peterson. Praying for you daily sir.
Okay, I have been watching since you started with the recorded class lectures. I listen to your content on the way to and from work regularly as a designer of spacecraft. This one popped up for me and I think it is reflective of your best format.
Man ... Dr. Vervaeke is an intellectual giant. I’d kill to study with him.
You miss the point.
"Thou shall not kill"
Its all about the word.
I took singing lessons a few years ago and it struck me when my teacher said day #1 that all musical instruments try to imitate what the voice is capable of. Not sure how true that is, but I remember it and what you both say about art aspiring to be music made me take that analogy further - that all forms of art including music aspire to be how beautiful words and kind speech can be. Taking it further all of us made in the image of the Word and we're meant to be like Him. Really everything glorifies God. :) Lovely to ponder!
especially the designer of that turquoise suit!
@@elan007 A starship captain's uniform.
@@elan007 He's got that "drip" as we youngsters say
Everything glorifies God. God made the vocal cords which have given the greatest speeches we know and sung the most beautiful notes ever sung. When you hear amazing singing, you get a glimpse of God.
It's more like instruments are tools that were made to be an extension and refinement of the most beautiful, harmonic sounds that human vocal chords can make.
Wow, this is an initiation! Thank you gentlemen for sharing your knowledge and wisdom freely.
"The brain doesn't try to predict the world, it tries to predict itself in the interaction of the world." 57:40
I feel that is touching a bedrock of understanding and enlightenment of conscious experiences.
I didn't remember commenting on this, I was listening to the podcast again because of the information it has, and the same phrase touched my understanding of my conscious experience. This conversation really is mindblowing, and mindbending and it has connected me through space and time. The title is NOT joking.
BTW, my relevance realization just made me realize that JP was wearing a tie with a lot of faces on it hahaha I think is Elon Musk.
Thank you both for generating many flashing eyes.
Thank you Dr. Peterson you have helped me understand the world in a new light.
Do you mostly watch stuff by right wing white men
@@democracymeansdcstatehood3606 i bet he just seeks truth
@@democracymeansdcstatehood3606 no I watch stuff from many different sources. And I don't consider Peterson to be truly right wing.... and the fact that you found it necessary to bring race into it.... people like you are so boring.
All of my podcast listening has prepared me for this moment :) I have goosebumps and "dots connecting" :)
It made my head hurt and I had to rewind and relisten a few times to really follow. But well worth the effort, by far.
Calm down
My two favorite academics... Thankyou. Killer suite Doc.
I must gush a bit too here, you two are the kind of men I wish for as friends. I wish you guys were musicians! Bless all loved ones.
This is mind-blowing!!! Absolutely fantastic! We are fortunate that we can tune into a conversation such as this.
To be a fly on the wall of this gigants of thought
10:43 this is so simple and so profound. This is why parenting is so important. And this is why obedience (as a child and as people are growing up) makes a huge difference on the outcomes in life ❤
Exactly. A child will not part his ways. It's so crucial.
This talk was fabulous ... Thank you
Thanks was a really good conversation. I didn't understand everything due to the gap in my vocab and just in my general knowledge on such a complex topic. However what I did understand has really helped change a few of my views on meaning within your own time frame. context is everything.
I expand beyond my present self each & every time I view your video content, Dr. Peterson. Thank you for...just being you!
You're a rock star! 😎 And your duds & kicks are proof! Love it all 💞 prayers for you & your family's ever-improvimg health & joy🙏🏻
I'm constantly in awe at the sheer amount of knowledge brought forth and shared to all of us through Jordan's work and friendships. Thank you kindly for such a programme Dailywire crew and of course JP himself.
A thoroughly enlightening topic. Thank both of you gentlemen for this conversation.
Dr. Peterson is the Dr. Who in the Universe of the mind.
I'm watching this on my TV and just realized I heard the entire conversation on Spotify this morning, it was so good, I'll watch it in YT now, so watching you!!! ❤😍