My Skaven list is based entirely on spam! I did not paint 360 clan rats not to spam! I took 220 to NOVA, and frankly every opponent had a blast slaughtering hordes of rats. The main drawback of Highland format is that it throws the baby out with the bath water. Spaming over powered units can be a problem. Spamming trash and people have a laugh and fun.
Few things are more fun than slaughtering hordes of units. Praise be to all Skaven players, for allowing the rest of us to do it :P Best regards, a Daughters of Khaine player who likes to run into things and see them vanish!
Agreed. The first step in game design is pick a feeling you want. Hordes of clan rats is one of those feelings and mowing through those hordes IS fun for both sides. Most importantly it FEELS like skaven. A good version of Highlander needs to take this into account.
I feel like three MSU equivalents max per warscroll (reinforced units count as two) is probably a happy medium between preventing spam while still letting armies with very limited rosters have some choice in listbuilding.
I tried deploying a second unit of morbheg knights on my pool table in the basement and Rob crossed the Atlantic, kicked down my door, and smashed my models in front of my wife and kids. INAPPROPRIATE
This sounds like just bringing back roles and list compositions would work best. A fixed percentage for heros, elites, min number of troops, etc. I always enjoyed that from fantasy to prevent some of the stronger units from taking over the game while still allowing you to play hundreds of skeletons, clanrats, orks, etc.
I love the idea of a highlander format. One con that comes to my mind is that less competitive armies could suffer from not beeing able to take the 'only' good units they got right now. For example, fyreslayers or iron jaws. Already strong factions mostly wouldnt care to much.
My local TO actually ran a Highlander themed tournament last year. It was an RTT (not a GT) so I'm sure it wasn't found even though it was on BCP. I personally love it. Ever since that tournament I personally make lists and play them in causal and tournament games using Highlander list building. At the end of the day I usually end up going 2-1 but I have a lot of fun every time. I recommend this format as it makes your list building more creative and play style not as stale. The one issue I do have that Rob mentioned is that its a lot to keep track of with rules and abilities as I tend to have 10-11 different warscrolls in a single game. So after a tournament it gets pretty tiring mentally which is fine for RTTs but GTs I am not too sure on as its simply a longer tournament.
Great video Rob! Always liked the idea of a highlander format. One side effect of this format in the current edition is you might see LESS diversity in othet areas. Things like battle formations, artefacts and traits which lean into unit types become a lot less appealing.
I’m finding it frustrating. I have just finished reading Bad Loon Rising, and I’d love to make a small 1000 point list based on characters in the book. Cant though…too much of the Gitz are locked behind hero choices.
I hadn't realised until you brought it up that it is all about how I feel. Meme vs Spam. But ultimately for me it's to increase interest in the game by fielding more diverse units. My friends and I are about the start a Winter Beer League and I brought up the issue spam and Highlander to mixed results. Appreciate your video. Thanks Rob.
It sounds pretty good for an easy to create/get into alternate format but I think it kinda requires a removal/rework of regiments to make some factions function properly, otherwise it's gonna feel like the haves vs the have-nots mode. Something like TOW style listbuilding would be cool but would also require a lot of work to create and be way harder to just casually jump into.
Spam is definitely a problem, but this doesn't sound like a solution. For one half of the armies it will look simply disgusting, for the other half it will look unviable.
It's not a problem. Please show me the armies winning that are spamming units. The most I can see is 3 x 20 of something which rule of 3 is not going to stop
i like highlander for occasional events, but not for a main game rule. i would like to see the following changes to AoS tho... cap of 3 of the same battlescroll, a cap of 1 reinforced unit per regiment, generals regiment only having 3 units and cut the points scored for battle tactics in half. i think that would make for a more interesting game, tho i think we would need to look at incentives to not take the double turn if battle tactics are worth less, i dunno what the answer is there, a lot of options pick one that works.
I honestly love the idea of highlander. I know there are sometimes variations, especially early on in the edition but when an army becomes "solved" like Rob would say at the end of 3rd, you'd see the same list over and over. Highlander would hopefully mix that up a bit and bring units you don't normally see. I feel like it makes the narrative of the game a bit more interesting by showing off more than just cavalry spam or flying spam or whatever. Looks like some great fun and I can't wait to play a game of Highlander
As Gitz player i say spam just one unit is a problem and is unhealty for the game. i will like to play goblin as goblin (with stabbas fanatics and squig alongside troll) but i can't because if i don't play Trogh i get rammed out of the table by other spam list. To stop spam the best way is reintroducing Rule of 3 but wit a tweak: Reinforced unit cout as 2 units for teh purpose of not having more than 3 unit of same warscroll
I feel like this will make elite armies stronger and horde armies on the weaker side even worse if you cannot use that 2 -3 good warscrolls that they have multiple times your left with the shitty ones
Me a Fyreslayers player: I can bring 1 of everything that isn't a Magmadroth and not hit 2k. But my basic list is almost a Highlander list already, to fix it I could swap out a unit with shields to a dual axes unit and maybe a hero swap for points efficiency, other than that I'm already there.
I think bring able to discuss Highlander games with friends is an obvious bonus and should be done, but I also feel like tournaments could have specific times where it's just a highlander event. 1 dayers are usually every other month so they could start to throw in highlander events to draw in the usual crowd or more casual players
Love the idea of alternate formats coming from MTG, I think the big issue with playing more niche formats in wargames is the money/time cost of getting a list together if you're not playing it regularly when compared to slamming some cards together there's a tonne more prep work there. That said, Highlander is a ruleset that doesn't require as much from players, assuming you'll already have a standard army picking up a few extra units that you might actually run in normal games as a painting project probably isn't too big an ask.
In previous editions certain things were exempt like transports or troop choices in 40K or core Choices in Warhammer so I think it could really work if you just named one unit per book thats immune as the "core" choice that are the epitome like Dryds, Witch elves or Liberators. For certain armies that tend to be themed you could have additional rules like gitz, if your general is a gobbo then stabbas are core if its a troggoth then trolls are core. As you say its all a bit of fun to play something different
I like the energy behind highlander, more unit variety is just cooler IMO. I liked how the old bretonnian book handled duplicate vows where the cost would increase for the vow if it were taken again a second or third time. Didn't disallow spam just disincentivized it. I think a similar system could be cool in Sigmar and 40k
One aspect I guess for the buildup points you make at the start is if you view three units that are reinforced as taking three or as taking six. Because you are technically taking three but it sure feels like six in terms of also the hobby side and mass of them that you see on the table and their relative real estate in the list. Youd have to buy six of that box and build and paint them and such. And it feels a lot spammier if done with the types of unit that in previous editions wouldnt have been a battleline where you'd expect to see a ton of them. Also for wether spam is real or not it also depends on if we are looking at an individual list or the state of the faction as a whole. It feels spammier even if its just two units of reinforced in a list, if thats also what you face the other ten times you played that faction. And depending on if that is because the faction just doesnt have many warscrolls or if it happens despite them having over thirty. Which is of course the insane internal balancing of most factions. As for highlander, when looking at it as Skaven, its kind of dead on arrival to me without some adjustment because it feels like it would wreck the aesthetic and feel of the army. Sure, limit basically everything, but the moment we talk making a list that feels true to the army and that looks 'right' and fun, we can't limit clanrats (or if pestilence, monks) to just one unit. Its just one specific issue, but its a dealbreaker for me.
I like the idea of Highlander. The idea of having more units in the game is fun. Can I suggest an alternative? Aside from a few "core" units (e.g. clanrats), there is a tax of 10% (rounded up to the nearest 5 points) on a second copy of a unit; and a 20% tax on a third unit. Pretty much everyone uses a warscroll builder of some sort anyway that will automatically calculate this. This should provide the same benefit (add 10% to the cost and the efficiency of most units drops off) whilst armies that are short on units can have more "core" units. If you want to spam for whatever reason, you can, you just pay the tax. It would help GW out too as OP units would be less oppressive to the game overall.
Sounds like a great idea i would love not only playing building painting a diverse army and model ramge but to also play against and an event just seeing a whole wide model selection woule be an amazing sight from a hobby point of view alone. I think tackling the so many warscrolls and rules problem could be solved taking it to a more casual scene where time isnt an issue, coming down for a day only to get a couple super fun and different games in is better than dragging out 5 tournament games i know ive already lost 😅
More seriously..I don't like the standard Highlander format. And the 3x limit do not work in AoS. But what about an "Highlander-per-regiment"? Max 1x of the same datasheet for every regiment of the army. Do you wanna 3x6 Varanguards? Damn try to fit 3 different regiments then. You can? Fine, but you have 3 drops now, no more control on who start first. You want spam? Pay for spam (and not just in points). I would like this!
I FEEL like spam is 3+ units. I naturally collect and play Highlander so would work great for me but get others’ concerns. If the problem is improving list diversity, then hopium for GW to do better with internal balance, but that impacts their sales cycling thru different meta chasing over time. Over the long term, we’ll get unit diversity. Great suggestions to ponder and I’d definitely play a Highlander format for fun
I dont think it really sounds like fun because it feels like itd lead to disjointed, underpowered lists that just cant do the things a normal army can do. I definitely see how it stops spamming 18 rockguts or 60 bladegheist revenants and the like but at the same time i dont think anyone should be required to go out and buy or play models they have no attachment to. I play lumineth and love my alarith temple but if i had to use things like windchargers or riverblades itd kill my fun because i dont want to use them or paint them but would need them to hit a points limit. Sane for my nighthaunt, i want to run a list with lots of harridans because their lore and models appeal to me but i have no interest in fielding chainrasps or glaivewraith stalkers just because i "shouldnt" use more units of harridans. I think that this is definitely a step in the right direction and i highly encourage people who want to try it to do so but its just not something i would want to be made to play in or acquiesce to
One of my current Lumineth lists is Teclis, Bannerblade, 20 Sentinels, Sevireth, Windspirit, 10 Windchargers. I'm already ready for Highlander format apparently 😅
Increased point costs for duplicated units is a space they've occasionally dabbled in for weapons in 40k but i feel like it has potential to try and push the 'vibe' of battleline vs elite units. Would people pay an additional 150 points for the second reinforced unit? Ratchet higher or lower depending on army theme/unit etc. Probably too much effort for GW though.
Love highlander. GW should really put it as an official rule. Or at least, limit to 1 warscroll non-infantry units! Also make the “free hero” lists much much larger! Army internal balance is just gutted by 1 hero per regiment rule… we already have points as a limit. FR!
I played spearhead last week, for the first time. This week I played a 1k game. Next week I’m playing a 1k spearhead game, on 44x30” board. So I’m trying out to see what fits, I rarely finish a 2k game so wanted to try different formats. Spearhead was fun but I didn’t like the board and terrain set up. So hopefully a garage mix 1k punk version of spearhead might be the future. And that with the gamer’s edition battletomes, it’ll be like playing AOS 5 already I reckon.
I'm not sure it's as bad for new players as described. Often, new players collect a wide array of models because a) having lots of different toys is cool and b) they don't know what the "correct" way to build the army is yet.
I love the idea of highlander. Personally Im kind of sick of the unit spam in aos, which is why I have been playing more and more 40k lately. Highlander would certainly bring my attention back to AoS
An alternate way of achieving the design intent could be to require X unique warscrolls per Y points. Would mean that horde armies could go for their horde theme a bit more...and it probably would stop gargants from being run 😉
I think alternate formats are great. There's a general trend towards homogenity, trying to reproduce some level playing field that just doesn't exist in wargaming. I'm supportive of playing variants widely and often.
Some fluffy lists would get penalised by this format. I’ve started Gore Gruntas after my skaven list was decimated (literally, 2000 points went down to 200). There are 4 warscrolls for gore gruntas, one can be reinforced. Add in a regiment of renown and maybe it gets to 1500 points. If I wanted to do 2K points I’d have to bring in Orruk kits that don’t hold my interest
Love the idea but don't think it's noobie friendly. Apart from mental load, production meta could be (depending on the army) an absolute nightmare for a newbie. Paint most of the models your army has available to it before their first game? Maybe if u could loan an army for them to trial it would be ok, but still mental load issue. I think this is a good optional format for more seasoned players, and definitely trophy worthy at events! Might try this at our next casual night actually... With seraphon 😅
The problem with trying to make changes that encourage fun for the player base holistically is that there is a group of dementors that regularly win 4-5 games attending more tournaments than the average player and derive all of their fun by sucking fun out of the game.
I feel like this format in particular is not for every army… yes, technically every army book Can bring a highlander list, But with the way formations are set up, There are going to be a lot of units that suffer from being too spread thin thematically. Armies that don’t have that many kits available, Like Slayers, daughters, Bonereapers and Courts in particular feel like they will struggle in this sort of format.
And here I am thinking spam was canned luncheon meat. Jokes aside, I agree with your "chart/number line" when it comes to what is spam and what is theme. A problem I have with AoS since it's birth is that new factions (except for stormcast) only got like 3 non hero units (I am being hyperbolic here). It has gotten better over time but it is still a problem imo
It’s fine, my main two armies are deepkin and kruleboyz both of which have minimal ‘battleline’ some armies (deep rosters) would be great for this, looking at you stormcast.
Despite being a rabid spam enjoyer, this format sounds like a blast! Do you think events would need longer round times to account for needing to read / re-read even more warscrolls?
As a stormcast player, every list I run is a highlander list. I can see this being painful for some more swarmy armies like skaven where they want to take multiple large blocks of the same thing
Great Idea, the only problems is that there are armies with 6 units (without counting heroes or big monsters) and half of them are worthless 😅 but with armies like Stormcasts it should be mandatory
A more work intensive but less intrusive way of promoting a highlander style exists. Give the powerful units Once per turn/battle (army) rules. If Varanguard were changed to once per battle (army) there is very little chance of the second unit being taken. Imo this is a cleaner way of doing what highlander wants while allowing basic battleline units like clanrats to still be taken. Highlander sounds like a design goal for the overall game but making it a rule really highlights the negatives.
Wait, I've never played competitive aos, but i keep seeing goonhamer or other articles with winning ists of like entirely varanguard or tons of one nit? How is that not spam? Granted its not like the ctan spam in 40k, but i would have thought having tons of something is spam, even if its thematic
Fast answer: no. Long answer: nnnnooooo. Jokes aside, I play Ossiarch Bonereapers and Sylvaneth. And my jam is Ballistarii. With Sylvaneth? Heck yeah! I'm playing highlander already, because the army is not designed for spam. With Ossiarch? O god no, I will not kill Ballistarii with just 1 single Crawler. It is a funny format, but of course its silly and doesn't work with the game. ... ...ok now I can watch the video.
I think it is a fun idea as a forma,t but prohibitive for an already costly hobby. I would likely play it on smaller scales 500-1000 points but often time unit spam for me is about getting the most bang out of my buck for list building.
As someone who doesn't really play in tournaments and owns only 3 rockguts, I'm not looking forward to them being unplayable when the tome comes out which is what GW is likely to do. This is the problem with spam.
Just tried to imagine a skaven list without at least two units of clanrats and my brain broke. Straight-up crashed like blue screen of death. Gonna have to reboot with a cup of tea.
the idea of highlander sounds neat but it's not something I would try myself. Plus I love spamming deamonettes. The metal ones I own look so cool to NOT field them
I like the idea of the Highlander format, but I have yet to play it, so who knows? The funny thing about it is all of the armies I own have that capability without too much difficulty. I think if I owned Ironjawz or something, I would be less thrilled about the idea.
I personally hate to do unpaid work for GW. That said, I would be open to join a tournament with such rules to test it out. However, I think that there are few armies that suffer horribly under it, and that would hamper the results.
Highlander does sound really interesting as a format but I main skaven. I don’t want to give up my clanrats (yes there are minis but they’re not the same) they’re really important to us so giving up a second or third squad would be rough
My personal feeling about highlander is the same i feel about spam lists pretty arbitrary based on the army. It really depends some armies (most Order, bonereapers, Kruleboyz) i think of as armies in a more realistic sense with mixed formations, scouts, auxilaries, logistical likits ect. While others should be acting like smooth brain take all da good stuff without considering the dangers that might have outside the immediate engagment (rockguts might be annoying but i heard of them seems pretty thematic to me). For myself some Balancing of this through regiment system heroes unlocking units armies of renown would be great, HOWEVER for a community and product i feel thats not what AoS is and its for the best people play with their toys. Ill continually cringe at 60 Chosen but for some reason find Abraxia and all Vanguard cool. 😂
I think this Highlander format should exclude anything labeled Unique, I would say no to regiments of renown personally. Might help with some of this. But some armies are going to struggle with this no matter what. I am wondering if taking away reinforcement might make for an interesting meta. I know rats and undead are going to panic but if no one can reinforce then all of a sudden those units of 20 compare ok to everyone elses units of 10 perhaps. But that does mean a lot more units and model buying... And could some armies like Daughters or Idoneth even field a 2000 point army with no unique models, 1 unit per warscroll, and no reinforcement? I don't know, but the reinforcement rule I am definitely the least attached too, I am way more interested in saying no to any unique warscrolls. Highlander should be in my opinion pseudo-generic army builder, the battle in question isn't important enough for Kroak or the Celestant Prime to show up, this is where the lackies come to play.
Honestly GW points balancing seems like they want people to run mixed lists. Theres a problem with game balance with the small chaff though, they cannot be pointed or stated with a human profile, so you have to take more. I think Highlander make it difficult for some armies that have minimum sized units with 250-400 points.
Ok, but AoS is built around battle formations that only affect Certain models? If there were some generic battle formations that affected your whole army this would be cool. But if I take Spiderstalk Tribe my rules would affect one to two models in my list.
It's sad that GW doesnt do this properly, limit units depending, for example, varanguard whould definitly be 0 -1 units but something like furies could be 0 - 2 Given how some armies are, I think most warscrolls should be 0 - 2 rather than 0 - 1
what do you mean with "no sorcery allowed"? btw, you cold add a rule that you can duplicate 1 unit if it's a "basic infantry NO-shooting unit" from a list, like: Steelhelms/longbeards/dreadspears Vulkyte berzerker bloodreavers/bloodwarriors chaos warriors/marauders arkanaut company Liberators and so on
Highlander is fun for 1k joke tournaments to see some different models. But half the armies in AoS don't have enough unique units to actually fill a 2k army.
You can take my 60 Bladegheists out of my cold, dead hands.
Nice theme
As a Cities of Sigmar player I love the idea of Highlander, as an Ogor Mawtribes player Highlander can go die in a fire.
Brother fat man here, yep. Highlander isnt really playable as an Ogre.
My Skaven list is based entirely on spam! I did not paint 360 clan rats not to spam! I took 220 to NOVA, and frankly every opponent had a blast slaughtering hordes of rats. The main drawback of Highland format is that it throws the baby out with the bath water. Spaming over powered units can be a problem. Spamming trash and people have a laugh and fun.
Few things are more fun than slaughtering hordes of units. Praise be to all Skaven players, for allowing the rest of us to do it :P
Best regards, a Daughters of Khaine player who likes to run into things and see them vanish!
Agreed. The first step in game design is pick a feeling you want. Hordes of clan rats is one of those feelings and mowing through those hordes IS fun for both sides. Most importantly it FEELS like skaven.
A good version of Highlander needs to take this into account.
That's actually a nice idea! :)
You could still spam a lot of rats in Highlander for sure, they have a lot of different infantry units!
I lovey redeemer sce spam. No opponent ever told me it was boring. As redeemer meta sucks and got hit in the ball again with the beast nerf
I feel like three MSU equivalents max per warscroll (reinforced units count as two) is probably a happy medium between preventing spam while still letting armies with very limited rosters have some choice in listbuilding.
thats a cool idea
3 is very low for a lot of armies.
I think they have that in 40k. Called rule of three. You cannot have more than three of the same unit in an army
I do like this idea, but I don’t think it would affect most lists. The 18 rockguts? Yes. Belakor, 10 chosen and varanguard? No.
I tried deploying a second unit of morbheg knights on my pool table in the basement and Rob crossed the Atlantic, kicked down my door, and smashed my models in front of my wife and kids. INAPPROPRIATE
Jeez, you keep your wife and kids in the basement? 😂
This sounds like just bringing back roles and list compositions would work best. A fixed percentage for heros, elites, min number of troops, etc. I always enjoyed that from fantasy to prevent some of the stronger units from taking over the game while still allowing you to play hundreds of skeletons, clanrats, orks, etc.
Highlander sounds great to me because that's what all my lists are anyway 😆I never buy the same kit twice, I get too bored painting it.
I love the idea of a highlander format.
One con that comes to my mind is that less competitive armies could suffer from not beeing able to take the 'only' good units they got right now.
For example, fyreslayers or iron jaws.
Already strong factions mostly wouldnt care to much.
There's another big win here - painting variety! You're not painting 18 rockguts - you're painting a whole variety of stuff. 😄
Hey Rob, I like this idea. I'll try to make a local tournament using these rules!
Have fun
My local TO actually ran a Highlander themed tournament last year. It was an RTT (not a GT) so I'm sure it wasn't found even though it was on BCP. I personally love it. Ever since that tournament I personally make lists and play them in causal and tournament games using Highlander list building. At the end of the day I usually end up going 2-1 but I have a lot of fun every time. I recommend this format as it makes your list building more creative and play style not as stale. The one issue I do have that Rob mentioned is that its a lot to keep track of with rules and abilities as I tend to have 10-11 different warscrolls in a single game. So after a tournament it gets pretty tiring mentally which is fine for RTTs but GTs I am not too sure on as its simply a longer tournament.
Great video Rob! Always liked the idea of a highlander format. One side effect of this format in the current edition is you might see LESS diversity in othet areas. Things like battle formations, artefacts and traits which lean into unit types become a lot less appealing.
Having units locked behind the hero tax doesn't help with list building
I agree
I’m finding it frustrating. I have just finished reading Bad Loon Rising, and I’d love to make a small 1000 point list based on characters in the book. Cant though…too much of the Gitz are locked behind hero choices.
Honestly my least favorite thing about 4E. List building is boring because of it.
@@davehudson4144 But you only would lose initiative if you take many heroes, no?
Yes, I guess at worst I’d either lose first turn or be forced to take the first turn. I wonder…for Gitz, is going second better?
I hadn't realised until you brought it up that it is all about how I feel. Meme vs Spam. But ultimately for me it's to increase interest in the game by fielding more diverse units. My friends and I are about the start a Winter Beer League and I brought up the issue spam and Highlander to mixed results. Appreciate your video. Thanks Rob.
It sounds pretty good for an easy to create/get into alternate format but I think it kinda requires a removal/rework of regiments to make some factions function properly, otherwise it's gonna feel like the haves vs the have-nots mode. Something like TOW style listbuilding would be cool but would also require a lot of work to create and be way harder to just casually jump into.
Spam is definitely a problem, but this doesn't sound like a solution. For one half of the armies it will look simply disgusting, for the other half it will look unviable.
It's not a problem. Please show me the armies winning that are spamming units. The most I can see is 3 x 20 of something which rule of 3 is not going to stop
In fairness to Troggs, they only have like 3 units
5
Only 2 reinforcable@@thehonestwargamerstreams
There’s a whole book of gobbo and squig friends for them to play with
i like highlander for occasional events, but not for a main game rule. i would like to see the following changes to AoS tho... cap of 3 of the same battlescroll, a cap of 1 reinforced unit per regiment, generals regiment only having 3 units and cut the points scored for battle tactics in half. i think that would make for a more interesting game, tho i think we would need to look at incentives to not take the double turn if battle tactics are worth less, i dunno what the answer is there, a lot of options pick one that works.
I honestly love the idea of highlander. I know there are sometimes variations, especially early on in the edition but when an army becomes "solved" like Rob would say at the end of 3rd, you'd see the same list over and over. Highlander would hopefully mix that up a bit and bring units you don't normally see. I feel like it makes the narrative of the game a bit more interesting by showing off more than just cavalry spam or flying spam or whatever. Looks like some great fun and I can't wait to play a game of Highlander
As Gitz player i say spam just one unit is a problem and is unhealty for the game. i will like to play goblin as goblin (with stabbas fanatics and squig alongside troll) but i can't because if i don't play Trogh i get rammed out of the table by other spam list.
To stop spam the best way is reintroducing Rule of 3 but wit a tweak: Reinforced unit cout as 2 units for teh purpose of not having more than 3 unit of same warscroll
I love your theme/spam chart.
Thankyou. Nice to see some wisdom
I feel like this will make elite armies stronger and horde armies on the weaker side even worse if you cannot use that 2 -3 good warscrolls that they have multiple times your left with the shitty ones
What if I want to spam an army of time clocks?
Inappropriate
Me a Fyreslayers player: I can bring 1 of everything that isn't a Magmadroth and not hit 2k. But my basic list is almost a Highlander list already, to fix it I could swap out a unit with shields to a dual axes unit and maybe a hero swap for points efficiency, other than that I'm already there.
So take Magmadroths? Lol
I think bring able to discuss Highlander games with friends is an obvious bonus and should be done, but I also feel like tournaments could have specific times where it's just a highlander event. 1 dayers are usually every other month so they could start to throw in highlander events to draw in the usual crowd or more casual players
Love the idea of alternate formats coming from MTG, I think the big issue with playing more niche formats in wargames is the money/time cost of getting a list together if you're not playing it regularly when compared to slamming some cards together there's a tonne more prep work there. That said, Highlander is a ruleset that doesn't require as much from players, assuming you'll already have a standard army picking up a few extra units that you might actually run in normal games as a painting project probably isn't too big an ask.
In previous editions certain things were exempt like transports or troop choices in 40K or core Choices in Warhammer so I think it could really work if you just named one unit per book thats immune as the "core" choice that are the epitome like Dryds, Witch elves or Liberators. For certain armies that tend to be themed you could have additional rules like gitz, if your general is a gobbo then stabbas are core if its a troggoth then trolls are core. As you say its all a bit of fun to play something different
Seriously ? Right in front of my 4 Gatebreaker list ? 😮
They cry now.
I wish they would
I like the energy behind highlander, more unit variety is just cooler IMO. I liked how the old bretonnian book handled duplicate vows where the cost would increase for the vow if it were taken again a second or third time. Didn't disallow spam just disincentivized it. I think a similar system could be cool in Sigmar and 40k
This format would certainly identify who the actual good players are.
One aspect I guess for the buildup points you make at the start is if you view three units that are reinforced as taking three or as taking six. Because you are technically taking three but it sure feels like six in terms of also the hobby side and mass of them that you see on the table and their relative real estate in the list. Youd have to buy six of that box and build and paint them and such. And it feels a lot spammier if done with the types of unit that in previous editions wouldnt have been a battleline where you'd expect to see a ton of them.
Also for wether spam is real or not it also depends on if we are looking at an individual list or the state of the faction as a whole. It feels spammier even if its just two units of reinforced in a list, if thats also what you face the other ten times you played that faction. And depending on if that is because the faction just doesnt have many warscrolls or if it happens despite them having over thirty. Which is of course the insane internal balancing of most factions.
As for highlander, when looking at it as Skaven, its kind of dead on arrival to me without some adjustment because it feels like it would wreck the aesthetic and feel of the army. Sure, limit basically everything, but the moment we talk making a list that feels true to the army and that looks 'right' and fun, we can't limit clanrats (or if pestilence, monks) to just one unit. Its just one specific issue, but its a dealbreaker for me.
I like the idea of Highlander. The idea of having more units in the game is fun. Can I suggest an alternative? Aside from a few "core" units (e.g. clanrats), there is a tax of 10% (rounded up to the nearest 5 points) on a second copy of a unit; and a 20% tax on a third unit. Pretty much everyone uses a warscroll builder of some sort anyway that will automatically calculate this. This should provide the same benefit (add 10% to the cost and the efficiency of most units drops off) whilst armies that are short on units can have more "core" units. If you want to spam for whatever reason, you can, you just pay the tax. It would help GW out too as OP units would be less oppressive to the game overall.
Sounds like a great idea i would love not only playing building painting a diverse army and model ramge but to also play against and an event just seeing a whole wide model selection woule be an amazing sight from a hobby point of view alone. I think tackling the so many warscrolls and rules problem could be solved taking it to a more casual scene where time isnt an issue, coming down for a day only to get a couple super fun and different games in is better than dragging out 5 tournament games i know ive already lost 😅
More seriously..I don't like the standard Highlander format. And the 3x limit do not work in AoS.
But what about an "Highlander-per-regiment"? Max 1x of the same datasheet for every regiment of the army.
Do you wanna 3x6 Varanguards? Damn try to fit 3 different regiments then. You can? Fine, but you have 3 drops now, no more control on who start first.
You want spam? Pay for spam (and not just in points).
I would like this!
I FEEL like spam is 3+ units. I naturally collect and play Highlander so would work great for me but get others’ concerns. If the problem is improving list diversity, then hopium for GW to do better with internal balance, but that impacts their sales cycling thru different meta chasing over time. Over the long term, we’ll get unit diversity. Great suggestions to ponder and I’d definitely play a Highlander format for fun
They should make every unit viable.
I was thinking about this the other day though like how to a tournament based on theme / fun rather than winning
they should do that
I very much like this format. Personally I’d like a points cap on each unit, and/or no reinforcements, to encourage even more variety
I love the Highlander format. And I support its implementation.
I dont think it really sounds like fun because it feels like itd lead to disjointed, underpowered lists that just cant do the things a normal army can do. I definitely see how it stops spamming 18 rockguts or 60 bladegheist revenants and the like but at the same time i dont think anyone should be required to go out and buy or play models they have no attachment to. I play lumineth and love my alarith temple but if i had to use things like windchargers or riverblades itd kill my fun because i dont want to use them or paint them but would need them to hit a points limit. Sane for my nighthaunt, i want to run a list with lots of harridans because their lore and models appeal to me but i have no interest in fielding chainrasps or glaivewraith stalkers just because i "shouldnt" use more units of harridans. I think that this is definitely a step in the right direction and i highly encourage people who want to try it to do so but its just not something i would want to be made to play in or acquiesce to
I’m so in. Also, GW gives us Idoneth players a second wave. 🌊
How about a third!!! LETS GET GREEDY
One of my current Lumineth lists is Teclis, Bannerblade, 20 Sentinels, Sevireth, Windspirit, 10 Windchargers. I'm already ready for Highlander format apparently 😅
Very nice!
As a Sylvaneth guy, i didnt realize there was another way to list build!
Meanwhile, I've been accidentally playing Highlander all along...
Increased point costs for duplicated units is a space they've occasionally dabbled in for weapons in 40k but i feel like it has potential to try and push the 'vibe' of battleline vs elite units.
Would people pay an additional 150 points for the second reinforced unit? Ratchet higher or lower depending on army theme/unit etc. Probably too much effort for GW though.
Love highlander. GW should really put it as an official rule. Or at least, limit to 1 warscroll non-infantry units! Also make the “free hero” lists much much larger! Army internal balance is just gutted by 1 hero per regiment rule… we already have points as a limit. FR!
I played spearhead last week, for the first time. This week I played a 1k game. Next week I’m playing a 1k spearhead game, on 44x30” board. So I’m trying out to see what fits, I rarely finish a 2k game so wanted to try different formats. Spearhead was fun but I didn’t like the board and terrain set up. So hopefully a garage mix 1k punk version of spearhead might be the future. And that with the gamer’s edition battletomes, it’ll be like playing AOS 5 already I reckon.
Brilliant love it, simple and effective. Run a tournament with it and I’ll be there!
I'm not sure it's as bad for new players as described. Often, new players collect a wide array of models because a) having lots of different toys is cool and b) they don't know what the "correct" way to build the army is yet.
I love the idea of highlander. Personally Im kind of sick of the unit spam in aos, which is why I have been playing more and more 40k lately. Highlander would certainly bring my attention back to AoS
An alternate way of achieving the design intent could be to require X unique warscrolls per Y points. Would mean that horde armies could go for their horde theme a bit more...and it probably would stop gargants from being run 😉
I'd be so down for this. Even playing Fyreslayers or a smaller roster army I think it would be far more fun than the sweaty meta armies
I think alternate formats are great. There's a general trend towards homogenity, trying to reproduce some level playing field that just doesn't exist in wargaming. I'm supportive of playing variants widely and often.
Realised my Hedonites list is already Highlander 😸
My squigs ‘n’ grots gitz list is pretty close too.
You will never take my 60 saurus warriors away from me
I DONT WANT THEM. I HAVE MY OWN
Some fluffy lists would get penalised by this format. I’ve started Gore Gruntas after my skaven list was decimated (literally, 2000 points went down to 200). There are 4 warscrolls for gore gruntas, one can be reinforced.
Add in a regiment of renown and maybe it gets to 1500 points.
If I wanted to do 2K points I’d have to bring in Orruk kits that don’t hold my interest
Every video about this in every minature game is a round about way of saying bring force org back.
“This isn’t my idea”
So just like slapchop this is 100% your idea
Love the idea but don't think it's noobie friendly. Apart from mental load, production meta could be (depending on the army) an absolute nightmare for a newbie. Paint most of the models your army has available to it before their first game? Maybe if u could loan an army for them to trial it would be ok, but still mental load issue. I think this is a good optional format for more seasoned players, and definitely trophy worthy at events! Might try this at our next casual night actually... With seraphon 😅
The problem with trying to make changes that encourage fun for the player base holistically is that there is a group of dementors that regularly win 4-5 games attending more tournaments than the average player and derive all of their fun by sucking fun out of the game.
A GAVIN COMMENT!!!!
Just us babe it might make list writing fun? Is there a lot of list writing that can be done or am I being a doomer?
I feel like this format in particular is not for every army… yes, technically every army book Can bring a highlander list, But with the way formations are set up, There are going to be a lot of units that suffer from being too spread thin thematically. Armies that don’t have that many kits available, Like Slayers, daughters, Bonereapers and Courts in particular feel like they will struggle in this sort of format.
Yeah mix it up genius idea somebody buy this man a potato oven 🎉
Not a bad idea
And here I am thinking spam was canned luncheon meat. Jokes aside, I agree with your "chart/number line" when it comes to what is spam and what is theme. A problem I have with AoS since it's birth is that new factions (except for stormcast) only got like 3 non hero units (I am being hyperbolic here). It has gotten better over time but it is still a problem imo
It’s fine, my main two armies are deepkin and kruleboyz both of which have minimal ‘battleline’ some armies (deep rosters) would be great for this, looking at you stormcast.
Despite being a rabid spam enjoyer, this format sounds like a blast! Do you think events would need longer round times to account for needing to read / re-read even more warscrolls?
I just want to see a spearhead update again. Like a “Fire & Jade “ but for a different season “Frost & Diamonds”
As a stormcast player, every list I run is a highlander list. I can see this being painful for some more swarmy armies like skaven where they want to take multiple large blocks of the same thing
Great Idea, the only problems is that there are armies with 6 units (without counting heroes or big monsters) and half of them are worthless 😅 but with armies like Stormcasts it should be mandatory
A more work intensive but less intrusive way of promoting a highlander style exists. Give the powerful units Once per turn/battle (army) rules. If Varanguard were changed to once per battle (army) there is very little chance of the second unit being taken.
Imo this is a cleaner way of doing what highlander wants while allowing basic battleline units like clanrats to still be taken.
Highlander sounds like a design goal for the overall game but making it a rule really highlights the negatives.
What does No Sorcerer means though? I can't run Keeper of Secrets or what?
SBGL players aren't ready for this :D
Wait, I've never played competitive aos, but i keep seeing goonhamer or other articles with winning ists of like entirely varanguard or tons of one nit? How is that not spam? Granted its not like the ctan spam in 40k, but i would have thought having tons of something is spam, even if its thematic
i have a stats show every week. watch that
Fast answer: no.
Long answer: nnnnooooo.
Jokes aside, I play Ossiarch Bonereapers and Sylvaneth. And my jam is Ballistarii. With Sylvaneth? Heck yeah! I'm playing highlander already, because the army is not designed for spam.
With Ossiarch? O god no, I will not kill Ballistarii with just 1 single Crawler.
It is a funny format, but of course its silly and doesn't work with the game.
...
...ok now I can watch the video.
I didn't think I'd miss 3rd edition army building and its regiments.
I would hate for this to be standard but it also seems really fun sometimes.
I think it is a fun idea as a forma,t but prohibitive for an already costly hobby. I would likely play it on smaller scales 500-1000 points but often time unit spam for me is about getting the most bang out of my buck for list building.
As someone who doesn't really play in tournaments and owns only 3 rockguts, I'm not looking forward to them being unplayable when the tome comes out which is what GW is likely to do. This is the problem with spam.
Just tried to imagine a skaven list without at least two units of clanrats and my brain broke. Straight-up crashed like blue screen of death. Gonna have to reboot with a cup of tea.
the idea of highlander sounds neat but it's not something I would try myself. Plus I love spamming deamonettes. The metal ones I own look so cool to NOT field them
I like the idea of the Highlander format, but I have yet to play it, so who knows? The funny thing about it is all of the armies I own have that capability without too much difficulty. I think if I owned Ironjawz or something, I would be less thrilled about the idea.
Not watch the video yet, but that thumbnail is 🔥 😂
Appreciate you
Love it😂 i Had to Look twice to find out its u😂😂
I personally hate to do unpaid work for GW. That said, I would be open to join a tournament with such rules to test it out. However, I think that there are few armies that suffer horribly under it, and that would hamper the results.
Highlander does sound really interesting as a format but I main skaven. I don’t want to give up my clanrats (yes there are minis but they’re not the same) they’re really important to us so giving up a second or third squad would be rough
If GW would actually keep boxes in stock i would actually support this 😒
I think if you did this you should tier the armies. Armies with very few good options would suffer more
My personal feeling about highlander is the same i feel about spam lists pretty arbitrary based on the army. It really depends some armies (most Order, bonereapers, Kruleboyz) i think of as armies in a more realistic sense with mixed formations, scouts, auxilaries, logistical likits ect. While others should be acting like smooth brain take all da good stuff without considering the dangers that might have outside the immediate engagment (rockguts might be annoying but i heard of them seems pretty thematic to me). For myself some Balancing of this through regiment system heroes unlocking units armies of renown would be great, HOWEVER for a community and product i feel thats not what AoS is and its for the best people play with their toys. Ill continually cringe at 60 Chosen but for some reason find Abraxia and all Vanguard cool. 😂
I used to call those lists the "white dwarf" lists
Reinforced Nagash = new meta
I think this Highlander format should exclude anything labeled Unique, I would say no to regiments of renown personally. Might help with some of this. But some armies are going to struggle with this no matter what. I am wondering if taking away reinforcement might make for an interesting meta. I know rats and undead are going to panic but if no one can reinforce then all of a sudden those units of 20 compare ok to everyone elses units of 10 perhaps. But that does mean a lot more units and model buying... And could some armies like Daughters or Idoneth even field a 2000 point army with no unique models, 1 unit per warscroll, and no reinforcement? I don't know, but the reinforcement rule I am definitely the least attached too, I am way more interested in saying no to any unique warscrolls. Highlander should be in my opinion pseudo-generic army builder, the battle in question isn't important enough for Kroak or the Celestant Prime to show up, this is where the lackies come to play.
Did that say 'no sorcery'? Like, no magic at all? Or just no manifestations?
That was in relation to mystic meg
Thats how I already build most of my lists.
I would say: battleline unlimited, rest 1 time only. But reinforced is ok.
Honestly GW points balancing seems like they want people to run mixed lists. Theres a problem with game balance with the small chaff though, they cannot be pointed or stated with a human profile, so you have to take more. I think Highlander make it difficult for some armies that have minimum sized units with 250-400 points.
Ok, but AoS is built around battle formations that only affect Certain models? If there were some generic battle formations that affected your whole army this would be cool. But if I take Spiderstalk Tribe my rules would affect one to two models in my list.
I usually play Highlander but that's my choice not by requirement
It's sad that GW doesnt do this properly, limit units depending, for example, varanguard whould definitly be 0 -1 units but something like furies could be 0 - 2
Given how some armies are, I think most warscrolls should be 0 - 2 rather than 0 - 1
What if we just completely reworked the regiment system instead?
This sounds good until you think about Fyreslayers and you can't play 2k points
I really liked the Sunshine Coast TOd by Marc Wilson a few years back. It was really great.
what do you mean with "no sorcery allowed"?
btw, you cold add a rule that you can duplicate 1 unit if it's a "basic infantry NO-shooting unit" from a list, like:
Steelhelms/longbeards/dreadspears
Vulkyte berzerker
bloodreavers/bloodwarriors
chaos warriors/marauders
arkanaut company
Liberators
and so on
Highlander is fun for 1k joke tournaments to see some different models. But half the armies in AoS don't have enough unique units to actually fill a 2k army.
That's not true. I can write a 2k list for every army