Sword Banter: The Chinese Jian and Comparison to the Rapier
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- Swordsage's channel (for more about Chinese swords & martial arts):
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In this video we're taking a look at some reproduction swords from Han Dynasty China and comment on the comparison that people often draw between the jian and the rapier.
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Oh......I thought skallagrim had turn black for a sec 😂😂🤣🤣😏
Skallagrim Can you review the saskue Grass cutter sword from amazon like $30
@slartibartfast85 how dare thou attempt to correct our lord and saviour
@Skallagrim OHh, you pinned your own comment huh Skall, guess you're more important than us :(( !!! (This should be read in all caps).
Skallagrim: Also Like and Subscribe if not so already, or else. Just kidding that's for comedic purposes. All Jokes aside we'll stab you with the pointy end if you don't.
THIS is what I find interesting at the moment. Comparisons of different techniques and designs. Not the which was better but the WHY the swords were made the way they were.
Exactly my thought! No weapon design exists in a vacuum. To understand its design is to understand its techniques and historical context, for efficiency never was out of thought to craftsmen.
I couldnt agree more
Juan Pablo Munoz yeah and the problem is when you get HEMA elitists who say “oh longsword beats everything”
@@i_love_crpg I am curious as to why after the longsword people started gravitating towards rapiers. It makes sense for unarmored dueling but for wartime I would have thought that the longsword would have been the sidearm of choice. Or maybe a mace since armor was so much more prevalent by this time.
ok but...
...
why is the katana clearly the superior weapon?
It's not a hand guard.
It's a Han guard.
....I'll see myself out.
LMAO
*Opens the door behind you.* please sir. You may
HA HA!
Booooo!!! (Throws pommel)
Boo.... your comedy is slightly below average.... boo.
The gentleman with the Han sword is absolutely correct. Chinese martial weapons are generally designed with hip and leg driven power in mind. Chinese martial arts train to fight from the legs and hips.
so much stance work at my wushu school 😀
"WIDER!" Ooooh, I've heard that SO many times...
Sword for Chinese is for generals and scholars or hero’s. Because it doesn’t really have advantage on battle field. But it is expensive so it can represent the level of identity.One blade like Dao is more useful, and easy handle.
no .it is use for Calvary fight with the huns in the north ....you do not have 1 vs 1 senario like the in the west.usually it is 5000 Calvary vs another 5000 .or 10000 vs 10000 or 10000 calvary plunder the rent and livestock of the huns...it is a light weapon because the speed of the horse is quite significant
@@rayrayli5901 The jian was actually used to kill defecting soldiers. Much like how officers in modern day armies uses the pistol to kill defecting soldiers instead of enemies.
chinese swords and polearms are seriously underrated in comparison to stuff like katanas
Well... that's because katanas has been driven into the mud by its fanboys.
@@quirkyusername1093 exactly
Dimtri Gabriel because historically the Chinese had lots of trouble with Japanese pirates so in general, one would think the Chinese were not able to handle the Japanese
@@KageNoTenshi ...how does this factor in a discussion about popularity of their respective weapons? What does it have to do with handling Japanese in fights and all that?
Dimtri Gabriel if the French always lost to the English, I am not saying they did, then people would think the French weapons are weaker than the English ones, same idea
Chinese people: we need a bigger sword
Blacksmith: say no more fam
*comes out with a scaled up version of the same sword
Wait till you see the Japanese one its all basically just different sizes of course there are such nuances like balance and stuff affecting its purpose but if we talk about appearances...
@@Gutraidh those things are unwieldy as hell
@@Gutraidh The shuangshou jian was developed after the nodachi and is longer than a nodachi. When the Japanese pirates invaded all over Asia and eventually the 1592 Invasion of Joseon, the Chinese and Korean militaries realized that the nodachi decimated their swordsmen due to its length. So both countries decided to one up the nodachi and made them bigger than the nodachi which is the Chinese shuangshou jian and the Korean Ssangsoodo. Nodachi has a blade length about 45-59 inches average is around 55 in~whereas the shuangshou jian is about 63 inches and the Ssangsoodo as long as 72 inches. Chinese literature and history both ascribe its adoption as a weapon on the Asian mainland to General Qi Ji-guang (1628-1687) who is said to have taken pirate prisoners -Wokou- during his campaigns in Southern China, wrote about the sword in his manual - Lian Bing Shi Ji - and recommended its use as part of the defense along China's northern border. Since General Qi's training manual Jin Xiao Shin Shu was used in the revamping the Korean Military it followed that this weapon came highly recommended. Nor did the Koreans overlook that oversized swords had been used by Japanese soldiers during the recent conflict as well as during their own experiences with the Wakou. Intended by General Qi to be carried into combat on wagons or by individuals who drew each other's weapon, the Ssangsoodo measured an overall length of 6 feet, two feet of which were to be the grip and another 2 feet forward of the handle to be sheathed in brass or copper.
@@mintyfresh4855 I fucking love General Qi. The Ming Dynasty is my favorite Dynasty to research because of the Imjin war and the Wokou raids on the coastal provinces. A lot of innovations came from those battles, one of my favorites being all the unique weapons and formations that went with them. The Miaodao and use of saber and shield combined with the type of armor they wore. Speaking of armor, mid to late Ming Chinese armor is so cool looking. The brigandine torso protection that went down to the knees, sometimes scale armor for higher ranked officers. The large conical helm with the armored aventail, the segmented metal plates that went from the shoulders to the knuckles. The thick leather boots, I even heard that some armored harnesses came with bronze masks in the form of mean looking faces. But they were only worn and parades or military marching displays, not in actuality combat. I'm willing to bet they were more comfortable, and practical for combat than the heavy armor being used by the samurai and Wokou. I actually hear that in China they have a Renaissance faire that is themed off of the Ming Dynasties (among other dynasties I'm sure). They even have reenactment events where they wear actual Ming Armor and perform formations. I would love to go to one.
@@mintyfresh4855 "The shuangshou jian" is mean two hand sword is was a type of sword not a name had exist in china history thousand year and not developed from nodachi , miao dao is develop from counter nodachi ( cause nodachi longer then standard jian in ming dynasty sword ) use by pirates , read more pls zanbato was developed from 斬馬刀 (zhanmadao) still use till late ming dynasty and nodachi was developed from zanbato
Correct me if I'm wrong but It really shows that you two had fun making this video. It felt natural, good chemistry, it basically was just a joy to watch! Hope I'm right :)
You are indeed right. :)
The comment i was looking for :)
@@Skallagrim Wish you and Swordsage all the best of luck :) hoping for more fun content like this!
@@Skallagrim Awesome, I expect that will lead to future collaborations...
Yes, agreed. The two should make a baby, and name him killa.
Nice to see Swordsage being in the spotlight and with good production values,he is really one of the missing link in the historical weapons and martial arts group of youtube,that could really use some popularity. Other than him i can only say Da'Mon Stith.
Junichiro Yamashita No kidding. I’ve always relied on Skal, Easton, Shad, and Thrand. Glad to see another another intelligent weapons channel.
He's been doing it for so long too, and he's very well spoken, he just needs better equipment and a good editor to make his videos more appealing.
He and Da'Mon def need more attention
I think I’ll go watch he’s stuff
does he cover middle eastern stuff at all? There's a missing link there
that Swordsage channel would make fine addition to my collection
Buzdygan same thing here lol I just subbed to his channel!
I subscribed to him a while ago but his videos are quite weird in the way that they seem unstructured unscripted and mostly without specific topics or editing. So it’s hard to get useful info from him.
I mean I can tell he knows stuff, but he’s like that lecturer who no one wants to attend his lectures because it’s faster to just read the ppt and reading list.
And he can’t talk clearly, doesn’t have a good mic yet he puts on noisy BGMs. Why? Are you trying to hide?
I'd never even seen his work before.
I feel so monumentally out of touch.
Likewise, added to the list of must watch cannels.
Gooooooooooooood😎
I've been subscribed for over a year, there's some great content and insight on a variety of topics.
As a Chinese，I have to say that the name "剑Jian" once represented the Chinese wood stick，which can imitate any weapon in daily training. A great general from Ming Dynasty, Yu Dayou, wrote a book to record the using method of stick just named 《剑经注解 Jian Jing Zhu Jie》,which means The analysis of using Jian. Then General Yu trained the elite infantry using stick by the book first，but switched the stick to MiaoDao for infantry using in battlefield of expelling Japanese pirates. And Ming army successfully beats the ronin army，who used katana. Later，the real Jian using method was reserved in Chinese army，and the stick method was teached to the monk in Shaolin Temple by General Yu. As we can see，one of the advantage of real Chinese martial art is using weapon flexibly. In the other words，Chinese can refer to using weapon from other weapon，not just train the conservative weapon method to acme. I recommend the movie 倭寇的踪迹“The Sword Identity”，which could have poor special effect，but contains the philosophy of Chinese martial art.
Forgive my poor English.
Yawara is stick and sword they were kinda interchangeable about 20 years ago, double sticks would be double swords, knives, longer sticks would be swords, even longer staves would be spears, the training was translatable. Now most people think that there was specific to each but in the past it was more about being well rounded and able to translate parts.
matt bugg Correct！
Your english is better than a significant percentage of the population of the US . Thanks for the movie recommendation.
I don’t think that movie is a coreect tactics to use a miaodao，that sword is also a fabricate thing. I much more suggest to just search miaodao video in TH-cam and also u can use these link here：b23.tv/av56411649 （If u can understand Chinese）
b23.tv/av23042497 （long sword vs miaodao）
b23.tv/av22412531/p1 （katana vs miaodao，just leave the topic，it’s useing for cheat keyboardman in comment section below.）
actully, 劍 isnot wood stick, in the old days, 劍 is not a specific weapon. it means the weapon which carry in daily. just like the japanese, they also call katana 劍.
劍 has different meaning in the history and nowadays.
and, the chinese army eliminated 劍 after Han.
劍 i mean sword with two side blade.
From Tang Dynasty here is no 劍 in the army. they use 刀 Dao .
and MiaoDao is not 劍. the books talk about 刀 are 辛酉刀法 and 單刀法選.
from Ming, the technique start to be different within 刀 and 劍.
and they have different strategy and skill.
Having trained extensively with both weapons, the whole point of the difference in point of rotation is the fact that the rapier is designed specifically to run your opponent's blade onto the hilt for control, whereas the jain style is designed to keep the opponent's blade away from your hilt. Size of the opponent's blade is largely irrelevant. With proper technique, I can displace a Scottish broadsword with a smallsword. I do love watching Swordsage move with a sword. Anything he picks up becomes a part of him. I also must say that I always appreciate Skall's open minded approach to everything. Very cool all around, guys.
Also, all true jian cuts and slices come from inside the guard. (Those "pretty, circular movements" are the counters that set up the cuts.)
I disagree. They're both amateurs, they're both soft, and nobody who does this for real gets soft like that until their 80's. By then, their technique is so good, it doesn't matter. But that's also the point when they can no longer contend with the young masters. These guys are already at that point in their 30's, just that they were never masters to being with.
@@itinerantpoet1341 You're probably too old to be believing in "masters" who "do this for real". Be careful of this kind of cultish mentality.
Skall: What a tiny guard, don't you want to keep your hands?
Skall's gladius: AM I A JOKE TO YOU?!
Not only the gladius, but the other heavily shield-friendly swords that Skall often handles, the viking era swords, they, too, have similar guards. That's what I thought at first. And scimitars, again, they were often used with shields, the slashing techniques mostly keep the hand away from danger, so, smaller guards on them. The examples are many.
I imagine it would be quite inconvenient to have a large hand guard when using a shield, a poorly placed thrust or even a slash can easily cause the guard to strike the shield. As soldiers tend to get tired during a battle and won't be at their best most of the time, the odds of that happening and potentially being a fatal mistake would be significant enough that you could even lose a battle because of it.
Everyone on Star Wars: I mean, that never slowed me down
Skall's Kriegsmesser; "YES lol!"
Rome sword and Viking sword also have tiny guard.
Wow as an ethnic Chinese I've always been fascinated with Chinese weaponry, espcially Jian and Dao which I feel aren't as popular as their Western counterparts, glad you made this video
anshu lieyi whats wrong with it?
@anshu lieyi what's the problem
@anshu lieyi ...Race should not matter, it's the amount of study, knowledge and skills that matters
@anshu lieyi so? He knows about it. You noob
I’m interested in the weapons which don’t have many parallels. My personal favorite is the bian. It looks kinda like a giant chopstick, and it’s absolutely deadly.
For a second there I was like Jheeze Skalls got a mad tan
And sick dreads.
wait you mean they're not both skall
what
It's quite sunny up in Victoria for a last few months
*CONFUSED TOM*
Martial artist: You protect your hands by using technique
HEMA longsworder: baffled look
A guard would still help so long as it suits the techniques lol. I'm sure that there is some kind of technique that suits large handles just fine.
@@cendresaphoenix1974 There certainly is, but the joke is that longsword 'fencers' tend to rush in and blindly attack. Even at the tournament level, seeing actual techniques is a notable rarity.
Being generous, it comes from an overly-simplistic reading of the so-called Lichtenauer sources, and the prevalence of heavily protective kit.
@@joadams8022 i mean I think it's more becuse there isn't actually any threat. Also there is that which is similar to fencing some people treat it more like a sport than an actual battle. The only plavce you will ever see a real sword fight is in a vr survival game.
@@cendresaphoenix1974 It's perfectly possible to train and fence with the mentality that there is a real threat. However, you are right, many longsworders (and rapierists and sabreurs, but longsword is nearly always shit) don't acknowledge any potential consequences. Clubs like Blood and Iron with their doctrine of sufficient contact are even worse, subjectively ignoring hits.
A VR swordfight is going to be even more riddled with artefacts, misplaced priorities and downright stupid moves.
@@joadams8022 how there can be some pretty stupid things but for those who don't want to lose months or years worth of stuff will fight as if they will lose everything... Because they will.
"What's that?"
"A sword?"
That earned my most sincere like
chinesemartialstudies.com/2020/02/25/lk-chen-and-the-rebirth-of-the-han-jian/
Am I in another alternate universe where Nordic skallagrim turned into Jamaican skallmon
Skallmon, lol, that sounds like a digimon
Don't make it weird, just two guys comparing swords and deciding which is better. :O
shut up
@@demammoet how is it weird? It's just a joke.
@@ianbonnar1801 It was a joke, but as usual lot's of people don't get it.
Bruh that beginning xD “do you like your hands?”
I like my hands ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
A surprise collab to be sure, but a welcome one!
Gooood... Gooood...
This is where the fun begins
Not a big of a surprise .
It was going to happen at one point .
He had been in a few of the livestrams before
@@mistakenotou7681 =) Have you got such a rich world to discover, my friend
ing*
sorry
and thus a graphic novel was created where these two gentlemen fight side by side and getting into crazy antics, usually trying to out compete each other in a friendly way
Legolas and Gimli in real life.
Swordsage is among the very few TH-camrs who can discuss the design of Chinese swords in the historical and martial art context, bonus the technical aspects that we are familiar with in HEMA like blade profile, guard design, grip style etc. Makes you understand why the sword is designed like this and the technique is supposed to be like that. Such an under-researched area, Chinese weapons.
Here's an actual master demonstrating:
th-cam.com/video/kzab-cGu9A0/w-d-xo.html
Yes, some people actually devote their lives to this weapon, to be able to really do it.
Less than 1 min in hes already making fun of his tiny Guard
compensando algo my brodah
That tiny guard makes me want to compare the jian to a Viking or Frankish sword. The Jian is longer in both the blade and the grip, but the crossguard and pommel look like something was driving convergent evolution. (spoiler: it was almost definitely shields)
Made in Brazil u peep that too
Marve: Infinity War is the most ambitious crossover event in history...
Skallagrim: Hold my sword.
"We'll leave it at that for now."
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I could listen to you pair rack on about swords and technique all day. Thanks for the vid dudes!
Yes. I mean intelligent conversation with focus. It was fascinating!!! Felt I was really being taught
Fantastic illustrative video. I would like to share somemore, during ancient times of China, there was a saying like a consensus of bladed fighting. “砍伤刺死” it could be translated directly as "Cut injures, thrust kills". Jian(剑，swords) was more purpose-built toward thrust and was relatively thinner and lighter. Dao(刀, cutlass) was more purposed as cutting weapon. Chinese Jian became more ceremonial during time while Dao assert dominance in military battlefield.
During Han Dynasty, there was a metallurgy technology advantage over its main enemy Huns. Weapons made of primitive steel was much better than Huns' weaponry. That is why a sword such thin and light existed. Even though Jian were replaced by HuanDao(single edged straight cutlass with ring pummel, heavier and more heavy duty) in military field during Han Dynasity.
Indeed. Any serious wudang fencer is going to force you to come through their point, and jian is called "king of short weapons" for it's ability to dispatch an opponent with a single well placed thrust.
But real practitioners practice those thrusts a thousand times a day for the first few years, and not doing that is why nearly all the videos you see look so amateur, even from garden variety "masters".
(Note that spear is "king of long weapons" for the similar ability to kill with a single thrust.)
That longsword immediately made me think of the *Japanese Katana* variants:
• The *_Nodachi_* &
• The *_Nagamaki._*
The *_Nodachi_* was perhaps the most similar with an extended blade length & much longer handle ( _Tsuka_ ), and would have been used on the battlefield in a powerful two handed - making it exceedingly difficult to block, or parry,. There are stories of *Samurai* cutting armored enemies in half with a single swing of the *_Nodachi._*
The *_Nagamaki_* however, was more a pole arm that was dressed as a sword. While the blade was the standard size for a sword, the handle was of equal length & was wrapped like a *_Katana_* , making it pretty odd looking, neither fish, nor fowl. Despite it's unusal appearance, it was apparently a highly effective anti-cavalry weapon.
~ ~ ~
Completely off topic, but if either of you decide to discuss Pole Arms, as well as swords, I seriously love the similar *Chinese* weapons the *Pudao* & *Kwan Dao.* The *Pudao* is basically a curved, single-edged *Chinese Scimitar* ( *_Dao_* ) on a 4 foot pole, with ring-shaped counterweight.
The extremely cool *Kwan Dao* ( _also _*_Guan Dao_* ) has a longer, thicker pole, with a shorter, heavier, more axe-like blade, often with a wavy, spikey back ( _presumably to catch/break an opponent's weapon_ ). There's either a heavy bronze ball, or ball & steel spike, as counterweight.
Neither being light weapons ( _The Kwan Dao could weight as much as 10Kg!_ ), I've no idea how effective they were on a real battlefield, but I've been in love with the flashy *Kwan Dao* since I first saw one in the *70s* tv show *_Monkey_* ( _& was fascinated to find out it was a real thing_ ).
The main issue with the Chinese Jian is the lack of pommel, therefore, it's impossible to end the opponent rightly.
Case closed.
Ben 🤣😂🤣
Glad to know I can still count on Skalls comment section for the pommel references!
@@alaskarii007 Yikes man, just here for some inside humor, if you're not a fan that's on you. Hope it gets better for you.
@@alaskarii007 ........what a hard-ass
I was waiting for this comment haha!!
Im sorry Skall, but those chinese swords looks very awesome...
dont be sorry they are awesome
Yes, I totally agree. :)
Whoever makes them really knows their work. I loved the last one, it's like a totally different weapon, and yet still a sword.
@Targaryen Dynasty lol calm down dude, every sword has its charm
@john son Oh fuck yes. Pommel protecting my gaping ass. Yes pommel
More chinese sword content pls! Also a duel between the two of you!
YES
To the *death*
*Pommel fight* !
Ok people, place ur bets on who would win...
TO THE DEATH!
Practicing with those Chinese long swords is awesome. The movements are so powerful, but still surprisingly agile.
Nice collaboration, thank you :)
Omg you two are awesome to watch together! I've adored how humble and fun Skal is for ages but Sage too? This really is a delight to watch. I hope more people take on your attitudes towards weapons and history.
As an Italian, I approve of your pronunciation, Skall
He's German , so it's not that difficult :)
@ He moved to Canada and lives there now
When I wake up today, I never imagine I'd be seeing a viking and a rasta speaking about chinese sword
The Canadians finally decided to let SwordSage into CANADA with Skallagrim!
Canada did something right imagine my shock
@@pattonramming1988 I'm guessing you're American.
@@ianbonnar1801 that's a safe bet
I'm quite impressed at the way that swordsage is able to talk normally whilst making those quite flamboyant movements. You can hear the exertion in Skallagrim's voice when he tries to do that, and I definitely sound the same when I try to demonstrate martial forms to my friends.
Honestly is there anything better then seeing two experts with good chemistry working off each other flawlessly to disect their passions.
Adored the energy coming off this video
That last one looks like someone took a spear and reversed the handle-to-blade ratio. I love it.
And by that I mean it doesn't just look like a sword. Rather it looks like a weird spear, and to hear the techniques are polearm-like is great.
lkchensword.com/striking-eagle
A black man who knows kung fu swordsmanship? Why does that sound like an awesome trope I've heard or seen in a movie before?
Afro Samurai
Ghost Dog
Kenny from Rush Hour 2 babyyy
Blade
Afro Wuxia (武侠)
I'm an Asian learning about Chinese swords from a black guy. I love the internet.
as an italian it's very weird listening Skallagrim pronounce "spada da lato", but damn I'm proud of you trying XD
Thats not a Noife
THIS IS A NOIFE
The Australian knife (noife). The noife (noife) means knife in English.
A FOCKING NOIFE
I have been waiting so long for you to talk about the Jian, thank you for that.
Could you compare chinese armor to European armor.
Mountain pattern armor. I don't know why people are so obsessed with Yoroi if you got that stuff ripe for picking. It just screams to be used by a hero of some kind.
@@05firen Fair point. Doesn't stop it from looking awesome. And I mean that quite an interesting topic for Skall to explore. (Now I want to research that stuff... but it's getting late here so maybe tomorrow)
Yeah do lamellar vs maille.
@@ctrlaltdebug Not really comparable.
R maille was very rare and imported. I'm unaware of any large forces equipped with western style riveted maille armor. Steel/leather lamellar is the most iconic from the earlier dynasties.
This is my favorite duo to see and really makes me interested in Chinese sword arts. Especially since the trainers and swords are not only made to be historically accurate but they're so affordable compared to European swords despite their niche market!
lkchensword.com
If the first jian that we saw is a Han dynasty design, that would make it roughly contemporaneous with Rome at the peak of it's power. The hand guard of a Roman gladius appears to similar size or smaller. Even a viking sword from nearly a millennium later doesn't have a significantly larger guard. Interestingly, each of these swords was used primarily one-handed with a shield.
lkchensword.com/han-fencing-jian
Jian was mostly peacetime self-defense weapon. It's lightweight and easily carried around. So you see a lot of Jian was variably decorated since it's part of a person's attire. It's highly effective against unarmored foe. But for wartime, the Chinese usually carry a heavier Dao. The Dao has enough weight to cut through a typical Chinese armor. But it's too big and heavy to be carried around in peacetime.
lkchensword.com/misconceptions-1 specially starting 4:01
I actually really like that last sword. Maybe it's more of the equivalent to great sword/claymore (chinese)?
Defiantly a greatsword
its possible im wrong but i think its a shuang shou jian
@@raithegemologist5114 ohhhhhh right. Now I remember
Shuang Shou means Two-Hand(ed). Just FYI incase anyone wonders.
It's shuangshoujian. Shuangshou means two hands, which means shuangshoujian means two handed sword
Amazing chemistry between you two. Bromance?
Edit: I searched "Swordsage" and subscribed because of this collab.
Love Swordsage. So glad to see him and Skall together.
When your friend had his two fingers up on his left hand when he was using the sword, I immediately know that he had practiced Chinese martial arts for a while, because it’s like an iconic symbol for Chinese martial arts regarding a sword.
I hardly leave any comment on your channel but this episode was very cool! Loved the special guest, the notions about eastern swords and the discussions between you two.
10/10 It has a little something for everybody - IGN
This Swordsage man seems interesting!
Which means he's a threat. Challenge him to a duel and dispatch him.
He does know how to handle that Jian, for sure...
I would take his discussion of metallurgy, mechanical balance and technique if his ancestors had invented a wheel
@@rickdeckard1075 They got fireworks tho
@@rickdeckard1075 What the fuck are you on about? Is this another one of those historically illiterate comments?
He is scarily fast with that blade lol
Just subbed to swordsage, it’s cool of you Skall to help promote a smaller channel. I hadn’t heard of him until now.
More Sword Banter videos ft. Swordsage please!! I would totally listen to you two talk about swords for hours lol.
This might be one the best videos you've done, and I mean that sincerely. I learned a ton in just under 20 mins
So, interesting question. Did they develop the weapon for the technique or adapt the technique for the weapon? This really opens a lot of fascinating fantasy combinations of techniques and weapons. Bravo, you two, amazing video!
All depends on the weapon on question like the Jian or gladius it's made too work a shield but something like a falx you can use it two banded, one handed, and with a shield etc it all depends on what the end goal the people in question wants with the weapon
Chinese sword using skills are really different from hema, basically total two technique
I'd say both, one makes a sword, which has specific properties and favoured techniques dependent on stuff like centre of gravity and curvature. People start making techniques for it and swordsmiths start making swords which complement these techniques.
I imagine something in between, the weapon and technique developed at the same time, you can't have one without the other, right?
@@argr4sh very much like a chicken or the egg dilema lol
Yeah! My country's dao & jian are getting their well deserved attention!
I know your channel is mostly about european weapons, but it is a breath of fresh air to hear about oriental blades as well. Maybe next time bring in someone with actual knowledge about japanese swords.
Time for a metatron collab
Boaz Henstra He'd have to move his studio further away from Japan to be within a days travel of the Metatron.
Very good video. When he showed the disengagement with the Jian and how a different center of gravity affected his technique, that was enlightening.
Thank you for introducing me to @swordsage . I haven't checked out his channel before but I am really enjoying his videos. Very knowledgeable and interesting!
This is such an awesome video. I love this collab. You guys come from different martial backgrounds but it's so interesting seeing a discussion and collaboration that isn't based on what is stronger or better, but more of a discussion on technique and usage. I LOVE IT.
Sometimes culture has more influence than functionality. Everything is a trade off.
Very cool vid Skall! You should do more on Chinese weaponry (perhaps polearms such as the Guan Dao?) and do some more collaborations!
Guan Dao is more of an affectation than a legit battlefield implement. The weapons that it came from that were battlefield tested were the "da dao" and "po dao". Both glaives although at the same time, glaives weren't used very much in warfare. Melee infantry by the mid Han dynasty were equipped with pikes and sometimes a jian as your sidearm.
swordsage is a very cool dude, would be awesome to see more of skall-sage duo, one of the best unexpecte collabs Ive ever seen
Sadly skall is moving to the east coast of Canada, while Swordsage is currently in the west coast of the USA.
Doesn't mean they can't collab over the net, but in the flesh is less likely now.
I loved seeing these swords and hearing the discussion about them. I have loved the Jian swords but knew from my studies in the library many were incorrect. Thanks to you both for the video and all the time and effort it took to make it.
lkchensword.com/misconceptions-1
@@kkcheungus1 Thank you so much for posting this link.
Thank you so much for the detailed comparison, made me love the Jian and know how to utilize it better! Great content!
Chinese swords are typically one handed Jain is always double edged, and focus on speed techniques flexibility and such
Chinese history is so underrated, and the Han dynasty is my fav
"For Norse Honor!" - Your response to Game Theory was how I found you, and your videos captivate me. I love history when it's not being rammed down my throat in school with "Testing."
This is one of the best videos that i keep on coming back to watch again and again
Very cool. Love how you respect each other’s choices of swords.
What, you saying Chinese actually make legit weapon not just flimsy movie prop? That's illegal!!!
Yea... That's what ppl tend to do when you have massive empires and armies to finance
Hmmm Hmmm no, the floppy swords is due to the popular wushu culture of chinese swords, when in actuality chinese swords were not like that at all. Most dao were actually straight, and most jians before the qing dynasty had longer blades with shorter handles. That is due to the fact that most jians were used with shields, hence why you don’t see complex guards
@@i_love_crpg Thanks
@@i_love_crpg when you say "most jians were used with shield", sorry but I beg to differ. Most military jian were used with shield, but you must know that Chinese spent most of the time in history favoring dao over jian for military sidearm, and jian becomes exclusively nonmilitary weapon (similar in function to rapier and smallsword), so the argument "most jians were used with shield" is not valid
@@christianalbertjahns2577 I think you misunderstood what I was saying. i wasn't saying "all" jian, i was saying "most" jian. Read carefully please
Compare the guard of the jian to other swords used in conjunction with shields: the viking sword, the gladius, the kopis.
or just all swords from tenth century and early on
Khrene Cleaver gladius comparison would be cool because they were probably the two most significant “soldier”swords in that time period.
I think the thing with the small handguard also applies for Scandinavian swords, because they were (at least as far as i know) used with a shield to cover it
I would love to see swordsage partake in some Hema practice. His technique and sword styles against some sabre and long sword technique and equipment.
The compare and contrast would be very interesting indeed!
Hey Skall great vids, I just want to say thank you for educating me in How to end my foes rightly.
Fascinating! Realize I know very little about Chinese swords.
Yes, of course! Modern China does not often propagate its cold weapons as Japan does, so many Westerners do not know that ancient Chinese swords are the ancestors of Japanese swords!
@@user-mq1no7ml9t Oddly enough I did first learn of these kind of Chinese swords from Japanese comics and video games. And in settings that are mixed with Japanese weapons, they aren't usually displayed as being inferior either, there seems to be quite some respect for old Chinese swords among at least a portion of the Japanese that are fascinated with bladed weapons (a lot of fascination focuses on the flexibility that sets them apart from Japanese weapons).
Great stuff. Interesting to hear about Chinese swords and swordsmanship.
Well, I think swordsmanship in general during time of war is if you can kill peep without yourself getting kill, it is good.
Damn, man, you should have made this a podcast-length video...give this a full hour's worth of comparisons with EVEN MORE! swords.
Glad to see Skallagrim and black Skallagrim together
Okay, Skall, I need a new laptop now since you just poked your sword into my face, thanks!
The Qin and Han two handed long swords were wicked stuff, it;s remarkable to think of two handed sword (made of blast furnace steel btw) deployed in large numbers along with massed crossbow and also massed halberds- (Ji). Some times the way they conducted warfare practically looked medieval with the aforementioned mixture of arms.
The Chinese of Antiquity did not usually have straps for their scabbards so a lot of times they just built a metal clip on the scabbord that allowed them to be clipped to the belt.
These swords were so huge. that a lot of times the users just clipped them to their back hip, on the hip side of the belt.
Cool to learn so much about Chinese swords and see the comparisons. Great video! Are there groups out there sparring with Chinese swords with a similar intensity that we do in hema?
at my school we used Action Flex swords. Well, no. We'd try to before we started humming and having lightsaber battles.
Great video! The collab work very well. As an Italian I praise your pronounciation. And I will point a little sidenote: "spada da lato" was used mostly in opposition to "spada da cavallo" lit horsesword, a less grammaticslly correct but more meaningfull translation can be footman's and horseman's sword respectively.
I just want to say that I'm impressed to see a comparison with someone who actually knows how to use a Jian is commenting on it and its intended uses/techniques. I've seen so many videos over the years with people talking who have absolutely no clue commenting on it and it's ridiculous. You displayed some of the common core techniques to Pek Kwar Jian Fa probably one of my favorite Jian styles.
The Chinese ancient military weapons are designed for the mass production with high quantity to equip the whole army for about million soldiers. The formal army fight in a formation, sword and blade is for very close combat to avoid enemy infantry hurt the archer and spearman.
When they started uniformised mass production, it was still for the low to mid hundreds of thousands of soldiers, they didn't wait till they reached the numbers of millions of soldiers to think about mass production.
So when you Sword Sage describes the last sword as 'spear like' and says it was designed to go up against polearms....well I instantly got a Zweihander vibe.
Why?
Well the Zweihander was used to loose pikes g presumably other polearms
Very true
Check skalls pants. He REALLY likes that sword.
Well, when you consider that this particular two handed jian was used by heavy infantry... ;)
Well I believe that long sword is called shuangshoujian. Shuangshou means two hands (or more literally, pair of hands) while jian means sword. So basically shuangshoujian is Chinese zweihander.
It is especially similar when you consider the sword dates to around the late Warring States and Chu and Han eras (eg. Chu-Han contention and Han Dynasty). During this time, ancient Chinese armies practiced a form of pseudo-Pike and Shot warfare where armies were using dense mixed unit formations equipped with pikes up to 18 feet long, halberds, and massed crossbow fire. It's usage seems very similar to Zweihanders that were also used against pike and polearm formations during the European pike and shot era.
I can imagine Basil Fawlty going "don't mention the guard, don't mention the guard."
I mentioned it once or twice but I think I got away with it
I really love the simplicity of that first jian's design. Also the last one. Really cool looking swords.
lkchensword.com/flying-phoenix lkchensword.com/striking-eagle
Crossover between Skall, Metatron and Swordsage. Get on it, you guys.
I'm gonna be honest here. I only clicked the video because Swordsage looks so damn cool. XD
Two words: Dane sword, a thrust-oriented longsword with a very long handle. :D
14:17 Ah, quite similar ones to those have been found in the Black Sea region from the "Middle Sarmatian" period (roughly 1st century), and can be seen on the Orlat belt plaque from Central Asia. The "Sarmatian type 1 sword", which has shared development history with the Jian . It must have been an excellent cavalry weapon for the heavily armored Roxolani nobles - I recall Tacitus mentioning them.
You're talking about the sword before 14:17 and not after 14:17 right? The two handed sword after 14:17 is around 5 foot long and used by heavy infantry - it's too big too draw and swing while on a horse.
Looking at the drawings of the Orlat belt plaque, I definitely see the similarity with the Jian. Surprisingly, I'm not seeing any evidence of a shield being used with these swords. But the drawings are hard to follow so I might be missing something. It's interesting to see the sword going right through the body of one of the warriors, presumably through armor?
the longest jian that you guys showed here will soon become its own weapon class in Elden Ring, the light greatsword
So cool to see two learned enthusiasts in different styles come together to talk about sword designs like this.
I absolutely love the designs of every single chinese sword. Dao, jian, I find them beautifull.
We also have some weird ass ones, just like European friends does
Wow, over 18 minutes just went by.... I guess that was interesting enough to make me lose track of time
Interesting info about the disengages. I'd like to hear more on how the Xian was used (not Form, but killing). The thing that bugs me is that they are really whippy and thus thrust poorly (at least when I try).
You guys make nervous, kind a "the eyes!! that pointy blade is almost touching the eyes". Well, thank god you two are professionals and nobody will need a pirate patch. Epic video with two of my favourites sword dudes. Hope more will coming!!
Hey man, I really like this video, because you do something out of your comfort zone but with someone, that knows what he says and I get the feeling, that he brought you to not necessarily like them, but appreciate the swordsmanship and craftsmanship that went into those weapons.
Bye