J. Krishnamurti - Brockwood Park 1985 - Small Group Discussion 1 - Why don’t you listen?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ธ.ค. 2016
- Brockwood Park 1985 - Small Group Discussion 1 - Why don’t you listen?
Summary:
Why don’t you fundamentally change?
There is no other movement than ‘what is’.
Is there an observation without any reaction?
Can you look at your anger without any judgement?
Will you break your habit completely within three days?
You don’t listen to K. You read his books, hear his recordings over and over again. Work, find out, instead of going on in the old way.
When I try to find an answer to a question it means the brain is never with the question.
Why are you not alert?
Note: an unknown amount of footage is missing in the original recording, starting at 21m 21s.
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Tutto il lavoro di K. non e' stato inutile ...ancora oggi scorre e agisce in ogni essere umano che ascolta i suoi messaggi senza aspettative ,ma pronto ad un cambiamentointeriore che avviene co tanta naturalezza ...io personalmente ne sono coinvolta e la mia vita scorre diversamente sotto ogni aspetto ...GRAZIEEEEEEEEEEE CHE ABBIAMO QUESTA POSSIBILITA DI ASCOLTARE E LEGGERE E APPRENDERE I SUOI MESSAGGI❤🎉❤
K sir is making it so clear. Love you sir.❤
I feel terribly bad for these two fellows, they've been following K. so much time, have poured so much effort and they think that the time and effort they have given should have awakened by then. Not realizing, that the very clinging to what K has said, brought them to this impasse. Is not K's fault. Time and time again, K has been renouncing his authority, he should not be another guru to seek after. It is not what he says what a person must consider important, but become utterly honest with oneself about all the lies and deceptions that conditioning and mind images have brought. To clinge on K's words, is just another adding up to conditioning, and even he warned about it on numerous times. Such a subtle trap to fall into.
K could have suggested these two leave his company after a certain time. It is somewhat suspicious that K did gain monetarily for many decades from those that believed him to be a world teacher (which at the same time he denounced). I am very skeptical of his 'oneness' with the universe. I think he may have been touched with moments of 'enlightenment', but I do believe he was completely unable to get the entire message across to one other human. That is a significantly small number. It is as you say, something each individual must do on their own. He would have been better served to just tell that to people in a far simpler way. Say, 'Hey, you are all, everybody, conditioned, and I am not. These are the few things that happened to end my own conditioning' and then be done with it. I think the results may have been better and could not have been worse...
@@tom7471 I am not disagreeing with your analogy but Ks message did made a huge difference to a whole lot of people then we realize. I don't think he intend to (nor he should) take someone through the door - rather, point out to the door itself. Going through it is entirely up to us.
Scott asked many beautiful questions. He was scared a bit like layman. But he gave his best. We should appreciate Scott. 🙌
I don't think Mr Scott Forbes was 'scared a bit' as you say; all he did was to put forth his questions in front of Krishna ji in precise words. And yes this discussion with Krishna ji was really beautiful.
"Change to what???!?"
...... spoken from such depth.
Perhaps we need to learn that appearances and our judgments could be very deceiving: what we see may not be what actually is happening, and what we “think” about Mary and Scott could be false too. If Mary and Scott don’t question J.K., what would be the point of this “small group discussion”? With just one person talking, no discussion, no investigation and no “working together” would take place. Yet, they both talked, and they both were respectful and listened too. So, this is exactly what J.K. always ask from us many, many times: not just to sit in idiocy, or statically in front of an “authority” whilst pretending that we are listening. Instead, the reason of those discussions are to inquire, to challenge, to WORK with the teachings by moving our inner energies, not being afraid to say anything stupid.
We’ll never discover what’s on the other side of the river just by looking at it.
Gracias por subir este material 🙏
the MAN (k*) in that time had cancer...its clear that pain when he bend over himself...few times,..but still trying to explain to M and S...polite and kindly,....the art of listening...and both doesn´t seem to understand at all...such a incomparable MAN...a true GOD among us...
i do feel for scott and his desperation in wanting change is tangible. the necessity of staying focused on ones own attention is not easy at first and the ego - the self - wants to constantly defend itself - one of the ways it does this is to constantly reduce what is happening to an intellectual process rather than a natural movement of love. but keep at it - those periods of attention will increase until there is clarity and insight - and then with no effort - change.
Very well said. Thank you sir.
I found Scott as very mediocre
Beautiful video 🤩
There is phenomenal change once you have learnt to listen. K explains over and over again what is involved. But you need to have this overruling demand in yourself to find out and go on with it.
JK said in this discussion that he welcomes anyone to point out where he is being hypocritical in what he says or does. Well, being someone who has been holistically observing conditioned thinking, I have detected that when it comes to the discussions that he has with his staff members, he interferes with their freedom of expresssion in how they respond to his questions. He often will cut them off in mid-sentence to correct them or to tell them "not" to express themselves in the manner they are doing. Now here is where he is being hypocritical: JK has said in other talks that the orderly approach to facing fear or conditioned ways of thinking and speaking is to ALLOW THE FEAR/EGO TO "FLOWER" NATURALLY WITHOUT SMOTHERING IT - JUST TO LET THE EGO UNFOLD AND "TELL ITS STORY" WITHOUT TRYING TO CONTROL IT IN ANY WAY. And yet, you can plainly hear JK dominating the verbal responses coming from Scott & Maria. So at the end, they repress their verbal expressions and seem to act like anything that they say JK will consider it to be "INCORRECT". So they end up being quiet.
If JK was true to what he has always set forth in his teachings, which is that your Ego has a story to tell and to not interfere with its expression and to simply listen and pay full attention until thought has finished telling its story before responding, then he would not have cut their responses off and corrected them. Because that is what makes one afraid to say what one feels like saying, naturally. Then they end up trying to use his vocabulary to express how they feel, instead of speaking in their natural way.
I see myself as I am and whatever thoughts or emotions arise in me, then I commune/listen carefully without correcting anything. I just pay full attention and that attention itself is acting on my emotional state of mind. So my emotions naturally dissolve after it has fully had its say.
JK doesn't allow for that to happen to the people he is having a discussion with. So they end up always feeling like they will never understand themselves. So this is my unbiased obsservation that I have detected about JK. And I noticed how people are intimidated by his exppression that he is always correct and they dare not challenge him whenever he begins to dominate the conversation.
That doesn't mean that his teachings are incorrect. It means that he has contradicted his teachings, from time to time. And nobody has the courage to point it out when he does contradict himself. JK's teachings are correct when he says that one must allow ones Ego to reveal itself by telling its story, and of course, its story will be whatever it conveys. And his correct teaching says to just be attentive and listen to the Ego freely express itself (without interrupting its expression in order to guide it or correct its expression). So in this video you can see where he went against his teachings.
Just watch this video and see how often he cuts them off and corrects them and refuses to let them answer however they can answer his question. He is "not" listening to them without interfering wiith what they are saying. He did not allow their conditioned reactions to flower/unfold in whatever way it felt like. After all, this is about seeing the Ego by listening to it until it's done. And then JK could have responded. But it causes frustration to the mind whenever it isn't allowed to fully tell its story without being corrected or guided or controlled by the listener.
I live by the JK teachings in my daily moment-by-moment life. So I am not speaking out of any subjective ridicule against JK. But he is the one who said that he prefers a person to be honest with him. And if I were in attendence at this discussion meeting, I would have pointed out where he was being hypocritical to show that I'm not just a "yes-man" and that I take his teachings seriously when he said that he would appreciate a person showing him whenever he is being hypocritical. It's all about being truthful and not just going along with everything that JK says or does. He is sometimes out of order but nobody has the guts to point it out to him because they treat him like he is a "spiritual authority".
I test out what he teaches to see what is real and what is not. After all, that is what he insisted that WE ALL DO. He said to never just agree with or accept everything he says but to TEST IT FOR YOURSELF so that you are not imitating him (which he said he didn't want people to do). So out of respect for his teachings about conditioned/egocentric thinking, I point out when he is being contradictory.
But I truly take his pure teachings to heart and live my life accordingly. Whatever I expose to be not true then I don't blindly obey JK - I drop it, naturally. I hope my message helps others to do the "real work" by experimenting with his teachings and do not praise JK and put him on a pedestal. That was not what he wanted. And stop quoting his words acting like that matters. He even said that it's a lie to quote him, if you yourself haven't discovered the TRUTH of what he is saying in your daily life's interactions. Thank you for taking the time and care to read this.
他們2個完全與克里希那穆提是不同層次的對話，克里希要表達的是為什麼我們不去看看事情是怎麼發生的，而不是再試著用知識去解決這個問題。
i watched an interview with Bernard Levin speaking to Krishnamurti, now that is proof that K is speaking the truth, because Bernard is a clever man, and yet K put him in his place, and i think even he realised he was a very special human being, because he spoke of things that Bernard could not comprehend.
Ik veel naar luisteren
These videos were intended to record the reactions and dialogues between Krishaji and the close people. That was the original idea, brought about by Mr.S.Forbes, though he said they were not so successful as expected.
Or the mediocrity of their attention?
Krishnamurti si comprende nel momento in cui siamo in grado di comprendere noi stessi e andare oltre il pensiero ,il tempo e la mente .. lui stesso viveva con questa qualita '....sono grata di ascoltare i messaggi tra le sue parole ....tutto il suo essere esprime e trasmette anche nel silenzio...
Can anyone change. We can't change ourselves. Just stop doing the way we do, stop thinking the way we think. The difference could be change itself. Could we see ourselves? That's difficult.
To observe, to look without any resistance to the fact, without labeling it, welcome the fact with open arms so to speak. If this non-judgmental, non-resisting observation takes place, the fact instantly dissipates. Whatever the fact may be: envy, jealously, sorrow, loneliness, etc. If such observation takes place, the question “what’s next” does not arise. If K had answered such a question, his response would have been conceptualized and the concept would have become an expectation which would then be another impediment to the clear observation of the fact.
Be sceptical. Always.
Let the speaker speak
Did anyone listen to K change? Did anyone listen to K enlightened? I hope I can meet that person one day!
とても興味深い会話でした。日本語字幕にしてくれて、ありがとうございました。。
Welcome 😁
This discussion was recorded only a few months before K died at the age of 90 on the 18th February 1986.
He was the world teacher, but only those who listened with complete attention fully understood this.
Calm down and feel the flow Scott
Let the lost to find them-self.
Can anyone change. We can't change ourselves. Just stop doing the way we do, stop thinking the way we think. The difference could be change itself. Could we see ourselves? That's difficult.
@@allee3881 is difficult but not impossible. grab the impossible look at it in your hands and know that's is all it is a word
He's "trying"
WOWWEE!!
I see a delinking or disconnect between Krishnamurthy and ourselves. Its a gap that can never be bridged.
Now is 2021, and then was 1985, and early another year, K died.
K was born in 1895, and started teaching around his 30, so from some time near 1930 to now, 70 + 21= 91... Well, no one except Dr. A. W. Anderson, understood K's messages, K said .... Humans are getting less and less intelligent but getting more and more intellectual and dumbed down .... What does this mean, and what am I to do? Ask K? I wish he is here today ...? I have many questions, but I have to look at myself
I think he is referring to the intellect that has increasingly dominated the mind, rather than something greater, which would include the heart, and freedom from worry and suffering. I would not worry, there is nothing 'to do'. There is only seeing, moment to moment, day to day. Then there is a possibility that something completely different might occur within the mind of a human that is not trying to become 'greater'.
Some people may have gone to one of Krishnamurti's meetings and understood it all perfectly. How can we know?
The daily amount of information a person has to handle today is nearly the same amount an average person living 500 years ago used to process in a lifetime.
The brain can handle such complexity, but the real issue is that no one of us is educated nor encouraged to understand the relationship we have with information, especially with information overload.
Because of this, we now have a rapid decline in attention span, IQ and general intelligence, and consequently an increase in neuroticism, mental health problems and general imbecility.
Simply said, don't become anything rather unbecoming by shedding the burden of conditioning to your unbiased pure intelligence.
It means we observe over outside or inside things intellectually not actually. To see things actually we need to be simple (not having any judgement or justification about the thing which means letting them go for the moment) then observe it, later you can conclude on the basis of the your observation or disregard it, what’s important it paying attention without judgement.
❤❤🙏
🙏🙏🙏
Very interesting. Dude is oozing with frustration. Seems like he has a desire to see but but he also has a desire to hang onto his patterns and there's a real tangible tension on account of their collision in this room.
He has desire. That's all. You follow sir?😉
文字語言本身就是一種限制，年輕的克里希那穆提試著用文字語言來表達他理解到的，但這個時期的克里希那穆提已經拋棄文字語言用了一種方式，停止文字語言的敘述去觀察事實的發生。所以這段影片可以很明顯的看到了克里希那穆提說的我們的大腦已經被知識語言調校成一種只尋求方法，卻沒有觀看自己的能力。
What becomes painfully clear in this discussion is the difficulty of recognizing that there is a quality active outside of thinking that is transformative. By merely asking a question and not looking for an answer sounds very contradictory. Or by merely observing my reactions in relation to another person without condemnation doesn't seem to make much sense either. However, you can only discover this for yourself. And that can only be done by doing it yourself. Perhaps the word "observe" has too intellectual a connotation and would be better to use the word "feel" which is also observation. Asking a question and feeling what the question does to you. Or feeling what your reactions are in relation to another person.
Can one look at what is as one would look at a flower?
I look at those two struggling to understand and answer JK and I think... "I can't answer JK's question. I'm in doubt whether I can think for myself". If even for a brief moment I saw what that conditioning is.
Does anyone know where I could get a transcript of this video? hopefully a PDF file
You can get in touch with our archivist at archives@kfoundation.org mentioning this specific talk, they should be able to send you the transcript.
@@KFoundation Thank you. They have sent a transcript.
If you say, "Is there an attitude w/o judgement...", in that statement there is absolutely STILL judgement as NOT JUDGEMENT. But the issue is not any particular specific position such as judging. The issue is whether or not reality can be just what it is or whether one is going to spend the rest of one's life injecting energy, of whatever position or angle (which includes trying to NOT do that) into the mix of what simply is. That simply is is complete and total just as it is. It is only the impulse towards grabbiness which says otherwise. Can we exist in the continuous OBSERVING of the arising of any grabbiness and that observing be total and requiring nothing more? The beauty of that observing is itself what beauty is. that OBSERVING (verb not noun) is not related to or dependent upon being fixed upon any specific object. The rose is not prettier than the arising of anger...if it is, then one is still stuck...😮
I sense K was struggling with something towards the end. I wish he could of verbalized it
We don’t you listen....you can tell by Scott’s tone he is irritated and impatient...
What is completely ,in his talks for a comman man?
39:00
Lol...these ppl keep asking K the same question, which they put in various ways, that only they themselves have the answer to, but they want it done for them by way of instructiion and that's the problem. They must learn to LOOK completely. Something that they have never done before and there is no recipe or position for how to do that. Either one can and does do it or one cannot or will not do it. Through effort only more effort is generated, but no looking can come about that way...through effort...😮
Mary zimbalist hurts me much
Why so?
-.- how to break a habit? Kiss
Freeze the habit in liquid nitrogen, then drop a rock on it.
Jk is something else...
20:10
krish vs the higth society, the blue blood is dead in love.
Everyone has a blue blood.
Two Bums wer having a conversation. One said , ' Brother a became a Bum because i never listen to anybody and the other Bum said i became a Bum because i listen to everybody.
19:19 Jump Scary LUL
Quite painful to listen to this discussion due to Scott's constant interjections.
Our reactions to Scott's questions are nothing but a reflection of our own selves. It stops the listening process and introduces analysis, which creates the self and therefore, no listening.
@@gnome3d750 Could you articulate more when you said that: “analysis creates the self”. That is a cosmic insight that you just worded there so simply and directly. If it came from yourself then you saw it.
@@1yanyiel you can get this purely intellectualy as well. Someone is telling you something and in our "listening" habits, we start to analyse the speech, we are looking for something we can relate to or something we think we understand and as soon as it arrives we (our minds) start forming response/question/solution/advice/similar story/joke it reminded us etc. etc. If you slow it down and observe the process, you will see that at the moment you start forming your own shit, you arent listening anymore. The focus of your mind is not on the speaker but on your own concepts, therefore you are operating within your ego and whatever will come out of your mouth as a response will come from your ego which you strenghtened this way.
20:13 😂
20.19.....free from fear....
That's the physical fear. Or in scientific term ,the response to stimuli. That's natural way of reaction of body. K have always talked-about the end of psychological fear. I hope you understand the difference.
@@jatinrajmusic he doesn't
in spanish?
These people are annoying and have not done the necessary inner work to establish awareness or the observer in themselves JK said that he has done this work this inner work which is meditation and has established this observer within himself that is beyond reaction or judgment condemnation like or dislike they have not reached that level of awareness that produces the insight that insight that is produced from just observing without reaction is what is transformational, they go on missing the point because all they know is mind they have not reached a level where they are transcending the physical , the mind.
I question the understanding. You do not establish or "put into place" anything. Awareness is not something to be obtained or "reached". Be very careful. All of this is ego and dualism (inner).