Glad to see someone used this technique! I also teach and I often get "I will never use this, all I need to do is program it". Ugh Thanks for watching.
Nice demonstration, superbly videographed! I really like to see the old school techniques documented since they are very useful for we living fossils still cranking handles and reading dials!
Thanks for your humility and good nature, it's refreshing to see that you are not offended by my comments so credit to you .It just proves that there are no rights and no wrongs; just differencies. You are a gentleman so thanks.
Thank you for this video! I've been wondering how to accurately put an odd shaped stock on a lathe. Most I see use a rod mounted on the tailstock into a punched mark on the stock and mic the rod while adjusting the 4 jaws. Now I've 2 methods I can use when needs arise.
I think you should have used an off-center location to reference this technique. In this day and age just use a dial indicator rotating the part 180° to find center, rotate the chuck CW-CCW to find the null for closest point then flip 180°. Good info, no doubt about it... demonstrates the use of gauge blocks and splitting hairs on physical dimensions. This Technique goes back a hundred years or more, back to the age of early machinist mechanical indicators and disk's, long before our dial indicators. This is a foundation of machinist techniques and is worth while information to anyone interested in the art of machining. If you get bored build a old style mechanical 10:1 wand that wonders around the dead center in the tailstock and it's fulcrum is at the tool post. I enjoyed your video, it stimulated my memory in past literature I've read.
+machiningmoments I drew a quick sketch, photographed and uploaded it to my videos. The button technique and the magic wand went together like P & J a century or more ago. A part two video using the magic wand, disk & button technique would would go a long way in demonstrating what was. Our forefathers weren't no dummies. You have an excellent video, I think it needs a part two. } It's under early indicator. { Of coarse you turn the head stock and adjust via. four jaw until deflection is minimized.
I read about how to make a set of these in a book many years ago. I did not understand their application until now. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
No worries, we are all in this together! I learn everyday and often from great English machinists, in fact one was my mentor and I have a very deep respect for him. What you might not realize is I teach and I have set this site up to help my apprentices. This project is a requirement of their learning. I believe you and I have an obligation to our trade to teach the new generation and it is my belief this is even more important in the age of CNC. Have a great day.
Yes it is used to accurately find the center in a lathe. This part becomes a tool slide (dove tails) so the center becomes important. Thanks for posting!
The reference buttons (on the bottom) would be laid out parallel to the surface plate for the "Y" axis and positioned using a micrometer for the "X" axis. The other buttons could then be referenced using trigonometry and micrometers. By tapping the buttons into place, the hole locations could be placed to within 1/10,000 of an inch. The workpiece would then be mounted on a lathe faceplate, as previously stated, and indicated in. (continued)
Hi David, thanks for your take on this it is always good to know about other processes. The tool makers button is a process my students are required to know. Thank for your post.
I have been a machinist and toolmaker for almost 60 years and can say this method has been obsolete, tedious, and error prone for longer than that. There are faster, easier, and much more accurate methods now. I have worked in dozens of shops over the years and have never seen them used. I used to work with an old timer when I was young (in the '60s) that had a set in his toolbox and claimed he used them once or twice back in the '40s. He said a bit jokingly that he kept them because a horse & buggy museum might want them some day.
this is an nice idea , i think i will use it some day ! thank you ! i would do this block different , just centerdrill it accurate on the mill , and then ill put the puppytast in the drill chuck , the workpiecie in the 4 jaw , and then set the workpiece on center with the puppytast ... if you dont have a digital reading , the way you show is perfect and really accurate!
Good stuff. I applaud your patience with the less-informed on these comments. Personally, I would likely use an edge finder on the mill to bore or ream a hole for a tooling ball for indicating. If using my CNC, the hole would be interpolated, but I have used the buttons before in building inspection fixtures as well. As a 2nd Generation machinist that started cutting chips on manual equipment at about age eight, I've been fortunate enough to experience a lot of things, but it is frustrating to run into the folks that believe they've already learned all they need to know. I had a good friend of mine years ago when I was just starting that explained the different levels of CNC machinists. He said you have the "button pushers", who basically do as their told as the name would imply. Then you have the "operators" who are able to make some offsets and do some setups, as well as being able to diagnose tooling issues. Then there are the "CNC Machinists", who basically do it all and are at 10 years minimum experience. Knowing he'd been at the trade for over 30 years, I asked him, "so what do you consider yourself?" He said, "none of the above. I'm a Master Craftsman of precision-machined parts." What most don't seem to realize anymore, is that you can bring so much more to the CNC side of things, if you know manual machining first. With that said, a lot of manual machinist don't realize how much you can bring from the CNC side of things to use for manual machining as well. Glad to see there's a few of us left.......
+GrizzlyMtn I would likely edge find the part also, this is a competency required in a course I teach. I find the videos are a great visual aid and the students love them. I try to remember (don't always remember ) that we all have experiences and I learn from others. If I know it all how can I learn? BTW I've met some amazing "button pushers"! Thank you so much for making the time to write.
Your machining videos are superb! Very informative and to the point vs other videos that are equally as good but sometimes introduce practices that can clutter the real subject. Very nicely done.
I really find it hard to believe the number of comments I read from supposedly seasoned machinists that have neither used them or heard of them . Ten years ago I decided to teach myself the trade & in doing so read everything I could get my hands on . The buttons mentioned came up numerous times . this was a very simple & well done teach . I have built 6 scratch built gas models up to 2" bore & am near complete a 1" scale loco . I have used the button system for locating multiple gear shafts . you tube search stephens engine firers up katrine .
+HYPE GRAFF We all have different experiences and I've learned a great deal over the years from others experiences...one of the great things TH-cam offers. Thanks for posting!
It is because of people like you that I do these videos, I really appreciate these posts. I feel I have an obligation to share my trade with the next generation (corny hey). I have been a bit slow with the videos lately but I have some time the end of the month and I have a couple of new ones planned. I'm always open to suggestions. Thanks for your post!
In the old days this is the way it was done.....well almost. For extremely accurate work a face plate would be mounted on the lathe and a light truing cut would be made across the face of the plate. The part would be clamped to the face plate and gentely tapped into position with a piece of brass. For multiple holes the part to be machined would be laid out with blue dye and a scribe. Then the holes would be drilled out with a drill press and tapped. (continued)
This process was made obsolete around WWI due to the invertion of the Jig Bore by the Moore Special Tool Company. The Jig Bore was not only a faster process but provided greater accuracy as well. With the advent of CNC equipment, the Jig Bore has now also become obsolete. david pierce
@Wongsterwish Yes I have seen this method many times and it works great. The accuracy depends on how accurate the center punch mark is.Thanks for the note.
It seems like a lot of work. I'm sure I could have had a block dialed into a 4 jaw chuck with a dial indicator several times over before I could install and set a button. One thing it might make things easier for is if you were going to turn a boss or bore a hole off-center. You could use a bridgeport mill to drill and tap the hole. Even then, I think it would be easier to just ream a slip-fit hole for a dowel and use that. To each his own, I guess. Thanks for sharing...
John Cleese showed us all old enough to remember that there are many ways of walking along a pavement silly or otherwise, this is yet another way of doing some very accurate marking out, transferring datium points etc. David in Reading UK also Model Engineer.
Thanks for showing a technique i had not heard of. 👍 It does seem like a lot of work, you have to drill and tap, then do a dial gauge pin alignment, then put in the lathe and do another dial gauge alignment. I just put the square block in the lathe and use the dial indicator on the 4 sides. If the dial indicator is on the carriage you can just pull it back, rotate the block 90 degrees and feed it (carriage) back in with the dial on the next flat.
I have dialed a block in the way you described many times, it works great. The tool makers button method shows its value for extreme accuracy and also if the hole in the block is to be set off center. Thanks for watching and your note.
Toolmakers buttons were for making drill fixtures. Any first year apprentice should be able to indicate a block in center on a four jaw chuck without all that. The buttons were placed on the bushing plate as you have shown by indicating on a surface plate, then the bushing plate would be clamped to the lathe faceplate, indicated in and bored one hole at a time for the drill bushings. The one button of the set that is longer was used when two holes were close to each other.
Fall, it doesn't matter how accurate the tapped hole is because the button is adjustable and the slips are measuring from the datum of the block, also i'd like to point out if you were to use an edge finder and then ream and dowell it, you are going off how accurate you picked the edge up, then it would be better to dowel it and then machine to the dowel. I completely agree though, sometimes not everyone needs to work to these tolerances and sometimes people get CNC, unlike me :(
it's NOT critical, to find center... think of this merely as a simple example of the technique that has more widespread use. you can use this technique to locate a hole ANYWHERE on the workpiece, and then center that location on the lathe. It's an old technique that is mostly unused, because of CNC, and multi-axis machine centers. However, it is still a useful trick for home shop machinists, and other hobbyists. And it's a skill every machinist should have, whether or not they ever USE it.
I'm relatively new to having my own machines and learning how to run them. Am I right in thinking the buttons are a more reliable way to find center than a wobbler. Great video by the way.
Hi Joe and welcome to machining. The wobblers or edge finder work just as well, this is just another way to do the same thing. This works well to help dial an odd shaped part in a lathe. Thanks for stopping by.
The procedure demonstrated here is of use for putting holes off center. It is a huge waste of time for centered holes, even in a lathe. If you are putting a hole on center of a square or rectangular work go right to using your test indicator to center the work in the 4 jaw chuck. You probably know that, but putting the hole visibly off center would have helped demo this better. Thanks, I learned from it, just had to watch twice to catch what the purpose was.
thank you for this explanation. It was appreciated. Pay no attention to the CNC boys > big difference between knowing how to achieve "hands on" precision vs having an option on a machine do it for you.
Well it certainly is for me. Maybe dialing the edges would be faster and approach the same accuracy, the lesson has application to a lot of locational problems that can't be easily determined. I got what I came for!
I qualified in 1982, and only ever saw a toolmakers button once. you uploaded this in 2012.... Why not use an edge finder to find the center of the block and ream a hole for a slip fit dowel, and grind block to suit. Or use a DTI to center the block in the lathe by touching the side of the block set zero, rotate chuck 180deg touch on again and split the difference by adjusting the jaws. It is just an antiquated way, Change to black and white film.
...As long as you can center-punch within a tenth! There is a *reason* that toolmakers' buttons have been used for over a hundred years for jobs requiring the highest level of precision, and it's *not* because no one ever thought of using a wobbler! It's the height of arrogance and ignorance to think otherwise.
It's hillarious how most people think that's a technique to find the center but they don't understand that their overly sophisticated punch card readers don't have gauge quality positioning accuracy on their own.
Another handy way, and quite accurate, to locate an offset point in the block for machining in the lathe. I have never used buttons, thanks for the video!! I have subscribed to your channel as well. Regards, Bill
I am not a machinist, but I would like to learn the basics someday. Is the purpose of the button to enable you to align the scribed intersection on the block with the center of the chuck (ie. lathe axis)? If you're removing material to make the square round, why is it super critical to find the center of the square?
If I'm working in my home shop, I might not have a reamer. I can make a button easily. Also, what if the hole is not in the center of the block? Harder to use the DTI in the lathe then.
Would it have been easier and less hassle to drill and ream a hole in the center of the square part while it was still in the mill? Then you have a hole to indicate off of when you move it to the lathe.
Or why not use the dial directly on the surface of the wp. No "button" is required. Check the dial while mowing the chuck, back and fourth, on all four angles.
No it's not for me, quicker to drill and ream a 'tooling' hole in the required position, offer it up to the 4 jaws and clock the hole (dial it in) much quicker and less messing about.
Then drill a hole and use the lathe to turn a pin to suit the drilled hole. There are more ways to skin a cat. Just saying I got away for over 30 years and never used one.
The TH-cam experts are throwing allot of shit at you for this video. Perhaps you should have used a weird shaped piece instead of a square block to demonstrate how to use a button. Great video!
+Bob Cartwright Hi Bob, my assumption when doing these is to keep it simple...focus on the process. The viewer can then apply it to their needs. This part works just as well off center. One thing this format has taught me is there are varied opinions...some stronger than other. I like the feedback, and positive or not I leave it posted (for the most part) as we can all learn. I have never confessed to being a machining God! Thanks for you note Bob.
Why not just find center using parallels and toe clamps on the mill and bore the I.D. before moving to the lather? And use the I.D. hole to indicate to? If the job didn't call for an I.D. hole but you can still allow for a hole for the button, why not just bore a small 1/2" deep hole and snugly put a 1/4" dowel and indicate to that? All the stacking up of blocks and indicating them before snugging the button, seems sort of like extra work.
Bilakaifa there is plenty of ways to do a single job, this is one way using old style buttons. It is nothing more then a demonstration about how to use 1 tool to do a job.
4 jaw work-----just dial indicate the edges of the block and the face of the block.....no need to piss about with all that drilling and tapping and slip guaging and clocking in the button then 'tapping' it to centralise it blah blah , I'm knackered and worn out just thinking about all that extra work. If it was really important the block would be surface ground after milling to ensure that it was square. Have been an English toolmaker for 42 years and English knowledge is THE best knowledge
Very well thank you sir, hope all is well with you. I came across this video by accident and then just couldn't turn it off, watched the whole thing lol.
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My pleasure, there are all kinds of interesting little things in this trade. Thank you for your post.
Back when I was teaching machinists, this is exactly how I taught it. Nicely done.
Glad to see someone used this technique! I also teach and I often get "I will never use this, all I need to do is program it". Ugh
Thanks for watching.
the procedure may be considered obsolete,but learning how to do something is never obsolete. Thank you for the knowledge
One thing I love about our trade is there are many ways to do the same job! Thanks for posting.
One thing I love about our trade is I am continuously learning! Thanks for your post.
Nice demonstration, superbly videographed! I really like to see the old school techniques documented since they are very useful for we living fossils still cranking handles and reading dials!
Thanks for your humility and good nature, it's refreshing to see that you are not offended by my comments so credit to you .It just proves that there are no rights and no wrongs; just differencies. You are a gentleman so thanks.
Thank you for this video! I've been wondering how to accurately put an odd shaped stock on a lathe. Most I see use a rod mounted on the tailstock into a punched mark on the stock and mic the rod while adjusting the 4 jaws. Now I've 2 methods I can use when needs arise.
very cool to see the right way to do it. thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge, hopefully you have some new videos coming.
I think you should have used an off-center location to reference this technique. In this day and age just use a dial indicator rotating the part 180° to find center, rotate the chuck CW-CCW to find the null for closest point then flip 180°. Good info, no doubt about it... demonstrates the use of gauge blocks and splitting hairs on physical dimensions. This Technique goes back a hundred years or more, back to the age of early machinist mechanical indicators and disk's, long before our dial indicators. This is a foundation of machinist techniques and is worth while information to anyone interested in the art of machining. If you get bored build a old style mechanical 10:1 wand that wonders around the dead center in the tailstock and it's fulcrum is at the tool post. I enjoyed your video, it stimulated my memory in past literature I've read.
+Wharesweldo Yes, I agree there are other techniques. I would be interested in hearing more about the "wand". Thanks for your note!
+machiningmoments I drew a quick sketch, photographed and uploaded it to my videos. The button technique and the magic wand went together like P & J a century or more ago. A part two video using the magic wand, disk & button technique would would go a long way in demonstrating what was. Our forefathers weren't no dummies. You have an excellent video, I think it needs a part two. } It's under early indicator. { Of coarse you turn the head stock and adjust via. four jaw until deflection is minimized.
I read about how to make a set of these in a book many years ago. I did not understand their application until now. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience.
I'm glad it was useful, thanks for stopping by and your post! BTW, I like the Sterling engines!
I agree, any day I learn something is a good day! Thanks for your post!
That is another way of reaching the same goal. Thanks for your post!
No worries, we are all in this together! I learn everyday and often from great English machinists, in fact one was my mentor and I have a very deep respect for him. What you might not realize is I teach and I have set this site up to help my apprentices. This project is a requirement of their learning. I believe you and I have an obligation to our trade to teach the new generation and it is my belief this is even more important in the age of CNC. Have a great day.
Yes it is used to accurately find the center in a lathe. This part becomes a tool slide (dove tails) so the center becomes important. Thanks for posting!
I'm making it my mission to get some of these processes archived before this fossil is gone! Thanks for your post.
Yes there are less Tool and Die makers than there used to be!
This is actually a requirement for a course I teach...your methods work just as well. Thanks for sharing!
I'm glad you like them and thanks for the note.
One thing I like about our trade is there are many ways to reach the same outcome! Thanks for stopping by.
The reference buttons (on the bottom) would be laid out parallel to the surface plate for the "Y" axis and positioned using a micrometer for the "X" axis. The other buttons could then be referenced using trigonometry and micrometers. By tapping the buttons into place, the hole locations could be placed to within 1/10,000 of an inch. The workpiece would then be mounted on a lathe faceplate, as previously stated, and indicated in. (continued)
It works well although it takes a bit of time to set up. Thank you for your comment.
Hi David, thanks for your take on this it is always good to know about other processes. The tool makers button is a process my students are required to know. Thank for your post.
I have been a machinist and toolmaker for almost 60 years and can say this method has been obsolete, tedious, and error prone for longer than that. There are faster, easier, and much more accurate methods now. I have worked in dozens of shops over the years and have never seen them used. I used to work with an old timer when I was young (in the '60s) that had a set in his toolbox and claimed he used them once or twice back in the '40s. He said a bit jokingly that he kept them because a horse & buggy museum might want them some day.
Agreed, I would not use one very often. It is curriculum in a course I teach.
this is an nice idea , i think i will use it some day ! thank you !
i would do this block different , just centerdrill it accurate on the mill , and then ill put the puppytast in the drill chuck , the workpiecie in the 4 jaw , and then set the workpiece on center with the puppytast ...
if you dont have a digital reading , the way you show is perfect and really accurate!
My pleasure, quite a simply effective way to dial in odd shapes.
Also works well, the tool makers button works well to assist dialling in the 4-jaw chuck.
Good stuff.
I applaud your patience with the less-informed on these comments.
Personally, I would likely use an edge finder on the mill to bore or ream a hole for a tooling ball for indicating. If using my CNC, the hole would be interpolated, but I have used the buttons before in building inspection fixtures as well.
As a 2nd Generation machinist that started cutting chips on manual equipment at about age eight, I've been fortunate enough to experience a lot of things, but it is frustrating to run into the folks that believe they've already learned all they need to know.
I had a good friend of mine years ago when I was just starting that explained the different levels of CNC machinists.
He said you have the "button pushers", who basically do as their told as the name would imply. Then you have the "operators" who are able to make some offsets and do some setups, as well as being able to diagnose tooling issues. Then there are the "CNC Machinists", who basically do it all and are at 10 years minimum experience. Knowing he'd been at the trade for over 30 years, I asked him, "so what do you consider yourself?" He said, "none of the above. I'm a Master Craftsman of precision-machined parts."
What most don't seem to realize anymore, is that you can bring so much more to the CNC side of things, if you know manual machining first. With that said, a lot of manual machinist don't realize how much you can bring from the CNC side of things to use for manual machining as well.
Glad to see there's a few of us left.......
+GrizzlyMtn I would likely edge find the part also, this is a competency required in a course I teach. I find the videos are a great visual aid and the students love them.
I try to remember (don't always remember ) that we all have experiences and I learn from others. If I know it all how can I learn?
BTW I've met some amazing "button pushers"!
Thank you so much for making the time to write.
Great point, and yes it would be very useful for off-centered holes! Thanks for your post.
Glad it was useful, thanks for your comment!
Your machining videos are superb! Very informative and to the point vs other videos that are equally as good but sometimes introduce practices that can clutter the real subject. Very nicely done.
I really needed this video explanation for the piece I am working on. Very clear explanation. Complete. Well done. Thank you.
I really find it hard to believe the number of comments I read from supposedly seasoned machinists that have neither used them or heard of them . Ten years ago I decided to teach myself the trade & in doing so read everything I could get my hands on . The buttons mentioned came up numerous times . this was a very simple & well done teach . I have built 6 scratch built gas models up to 2" bore & am near complete a 1" scale loco . I have used the button system for locating multiple gear shafts . you tube search stephens engine firers up katrine .
+HYPE GRAFF We all have different experiences and I've learned a great deal over the years from others experiences...one of the great things TH-cam offers. Thanks for posting!
+machiningmoments mkkkkkuh
We also setup blocks from the sides as dgw explained, 30+ years in papermill maintenance machining.
I'm glad you are interested in the trade!
Thanks for uploading these machine shop clips, I like all of them!
That's a neat trick. Thanks for posting.
It is because of people like you that I do these videos, I really appreciate these posts. I feel I have an obligation to share my trade with the next generation (corny hey). I have been a bit slow with the videos lately but I have some time the end of the month and I have a couple of new ones planned. I'm always open to suggestions. Thanks for your post!
In the old days this is the way it was done.....well almost. For extremely accurate work a face plate would be mounted on the lathe and a light truing cut would be made across the face of the plate. The part would be clamped to the face plate and gentely tapped into position with a piece of brass. For multiple holes the part to be machined would be laid out with blue dye and a scribe. Then the holes would be drilled out with a drill press and tapped. (continued)
This process was made obsolete around WWI due to the invertion of the Jig Bore by the Moore Special Tool Company. The Jig Bore was not only a faster process but provided greater accuracy as well. With the advent of CNC equipment, the Jig Bore has now also become obsolete.
david pierce
Thanks for your post Doug, we can all learn form one another.
@Wongsterwish Yes I have seen this method many times and it works great. The accuracy depends on how accurate the center punch mark is.Thanks for the note.
It seems like a lot of work. I'm sure I could have had a block dialed into a 4 jaw chuck with a dial indicator several times over before I could install and set a button. One thing it might make things easier for is if you were going to turn a boss or bore a hole off-center. You could use a bridgeport mill to drill and tap the hole. Even then, I think it would be easier to just ream a slip-fit hole for a dowel and use that. To each his own, I guess. Thanks for sharing...
John Cleese showed us all old enough to remember that there are many ways of walking along a pavement silly or otherwise, this is yet another way of doing some very accurate marking out, transferring datium points etc.
David in Reading UK also Model Engineer.
Thanks for showing a technique i had not heard of. 👍
It does seem like a lot of work, you have to drill and tap, then do a dial gauge pin alignment, then put in the lathe and do another dial gauge alignment.
I just put the square block in the lathe and use the dial indicator on the 4 sides. If the dial indicator is on the carriage you can just pull it back, rotate the block 90 degrees and feed it (carriage) back in with the dial on the next flat.
I have dialed a block in the way you described many times, it works great. The tool makers button method shows its value for extreme accuracy and also if the hole in the block is to be set off center. Thanks for watching and your note.
@@machiningmoments ... ah off centre. Thanks, now it makes more sense, especially using the gauge blocks etc. 👍
Wow! Thank you for your kind words and taking the time to write. I really want to share this knowledge.
Yes, that would make it more accurate. Thanks for your post.
Glad it is useful to you, thanks for posting!
Glad you liked it, thanks for your note!
There is the wrong way, the right way, and the way that gets it done accurately and quickly. The right away always requires too much time.
Nicely done, never saw that done before and I have a journeyman toolmaker card in my wallet. Nice clear videos as well.
Well done sir! Thank you for a great explanation of what a toolmaker's button might be used for! I've subscribed.
@CanadianPacific2007 Thanks for stopping by Stephen.
Toolmakers buttons were for making drill fixtures. Any first year apprentice should be able to indicate a block in center on a four jaw chuck without all that. The buttons were placed on the bushing plate as you have shown by indicating on a surface plate, then the bushing plate would be clamped to the lathe faceplate, indicated in and bored one hole at a time for the drill bushings. The one button of the set that is longer was used when two holes were close to each other.
Fall, it doesn't matter how accurate the tapped hole is because the button is adjustable and the slips are measuring from the datum of the block, also i'd like to point out if you were to use an edge finder and then ream and dowell it, you are going off how accurate you picked the edge up, then it would be better to dowel it and then machine to the dowel. I completely agree though, sometimes not everyone needs to work to these tolerances and sometimes people get CNC, unlike me :(
it's NOT critical, to find center...
think of this merely as a simple example of the technique that has more widespread use.
you can use this technique to locate a hole ANYWHERE on the workpiece, and then center that location on the lathe.
It's an old technique that is mostly unused, because of CNC, and multi-axis machine centers. However, it is still a useful trick for home shop machinists, and other hobbyists. And it's a skill every machinist should have, whether or not they ever USE it.
You learn something new every day
I enjoyed this video very much! Thank you..
I'm relatively new to having my own machines and learning how to run them. Am I right in thinking the buttons are a more reliable way to find center than a wobbler. Great video by the way.
Hi Joe and welcome to machining. The wobblers or edge finder work just as well, this is just another way to do the same thing. This works well to help dial an odd shaped part in a lathe. Thanks for stopping by.
The procedure demonstrated here is of use for putting holes off center. It is a huge waste of time for centered holes, even in a lathe. If you are putting a hole on center of a square or rectangular work go right to using your test indicator to center the work in the 4 jaw chuck. You probably know that, but putting the hole visibly off center would have helped demo this better. Thanks, I learned from it, just had to watch twice to catch what the purpose was.
Thank you for watching and your comment, I'm glad it was helpful.
thank you for this explanation. It was appreciated. Pay no attention to the CNC boys > big difference between knowing how to achieve "hands on" precision vs having an option on a machine do it for you.
Well it certainly is for me. Maybe dialing the edges would be faster and approach the same accuracy, the lesson has application to a lot of locational problems that can't be easily determined. I got what I came for!
That would work as well. Thanks for your note!
Great video . As always...!!
I qualified in 1982, and only ever saw a toolmakers button once. you uploaded this in 2012.... Why not use an edge finder to find the center of the block and ream a hole for a slip fit dowel, and grind block to suit. Or use a DTI to center the block in the lathe by touching the side of the block set zero, rotate chuck 180deg touch on again and split the difference by adjusting the jaws. It is just an antiquated way, Change to black and white film.
...As long as you can center-punch within a tenth! There is a *reason* that toolmakers' buttons have been used for over a hundred years for jobs requiring the highest level of precision, and it's *not* because no one ever thought of using a wobbler! It's the height of arrogance and ignorance to think otherwise.
to think i could program and machine that part in like 10 minutes. oh modern machines!
I hope I do! Thanks for watching.
It's hillarious how most people think that's a technique to find the center but they don't understand that their overly sophisticated punch card readers don't have gauge quality positioning accuracy on their own.
Good example of use, thanks for sharing!
@DieselCrawler86 To my knowledge this is the only use. Please see the other comment for an alternative way of doing this. Thanks for the note.
Can you do a video on tooling balls, my understanding the button is old school since the ball can be used at so many angles
Depends on the size of the senner drill. Why do you say senner and not centre (center). Anyway that is ancient history with CMM's CNC's etc.
Another handy way, and quite accurate, to locate an offset point in the block for machining in the lathe. I have never used buttons, thanks for the video!!
I have subscribed to your channel as well.
Regards, Bill
Definitely not for everyone. Thanks for taking the time to leave a note.
I am not a machinist, but I would like to learn the basics someday.
Is the purpose of the button to enable you to align the scribed intersection on the block with the center of the chuck (ie. lathe axis)?
If you're removing material to make the square round, why is it super critical to find the center of the square?
What if you do not have a cnc machine? Keeping old school methods alive is vital.
If I'm working in my home shop, I might not have a reamer. I can make a button easily. Also, what if the hole is not in the center of the block? Harder to use the DTI in the lathe then.
Would it have been easier and less hassle to drill and ream a hole in the center of the square part while it was still in the mill? Then you have a hole to indicate off of when you move it to the lathe.
The idea is for holes that are off center.
Or why not use the dial directly on the surface of the wp.
No "button" is required. Check the dial while mowing the chuck,
back and fourth, on all four angles.
That will work also, just another way to get the ame result!
machiningmoments
Buttons are the most accurate method I know for many jobs.
machiningmoments Ha! I didn't get that until u said it. Didn't understand the point of it but that's clever! I may use that at some point
That used to be the only way to do things like this . There were no self centering electronic gizmos to do it for you .
@outsidescrewball Good idea, I'll look into it. Thanks
There is that!
Now would this be the sole use for tool makers buttons or are there others?
No it's not for me, quicker to drill and ream a 'tooling' hole in the required position, offer it up to the 4 jaws and clock the hole (dial it in) much quicker and less messing about.
very good but i would have used an edge finder or 3d tester get the tapped hole right!
wow, I would consider this overkill but if you want to get in the .0001 the old-school ways. I guess that's the way to go. quite interesting
Then drill a hole and use the lathe to turn a pin to suit the drilled hole. There are more ways to skin a cat. Just saying I got away for over 30 years and never used one.
Stephen M was here :)
The TH-cam experts are throwing allot of shit at you for this video. Perhaps you should have used a weird shaped piece instead of a square block to demonstrate how to use a button. Great video!
+Bob Cartwright Hi Bob, my assumption when doing these is to keep it simple...focus on the process. The viewer can then apply it to their needs. This part works just as well off center. One thing this format has taught me is there are varied opinions...some stronger than other. I like the feedback, and positive or not I leave it posted (for the most part) as we can all learn. I have never confessed to being a machining God!
Thanks for you note Bob.
Why not just find center using parallels and toe clamps on the mill and bore the I.D. before moving to the lather? And use the I.D. hole to indicate to? If the job didn't call for an I.D. hole but you can still allow for a hole for the button, why not just bore a small 1/2" deep hole and snugly put a 1/4" dowel and indicate to that? All the stacking up of blocks and indicating them before snugging the button, seems sort of like extra work.
It is part of project students are required to do.
Bilakaifa there is plenty of ways to do a single job, this is one way using old style buttons. It is nothing more then a demonstration about how to use 1 tool to do a job.
Sounds like this process is NOT for you!
It's not for everyone.
That would work too.
which material used toolmakers buttons?
The material of the tool maker's button? Hardened steel. The material the tool maker's button is in? Mild steel.
what is the tool makers button material name? it is a additional part of lathe or not....
+Shivaji Gharat It is a hardened ground steel. It is not part of the lathe but can be purchased at any machine shop tool supplier.
Thanks for reply me....
+Shivaji Gharat Glad to, thanks for sending me your question.
4 jaw work-----just dial indicate the edges of the block and the face of the block.....no need to piss about with all that drilling and tapping and slip guaging and clocking in the button then 'tapping' it to centralise it blah blah , I'm knackered and worn out just thinking about all that extra work. If it was really important the block would be surface ground after milling to ensure that it was square. Have been an English toolmaker for 42 years and English knowledge is THE best knowledge
looks and sounds familiar, I didn't know you were on youtube Mr K.
Hi Tim, how are you?
Very well thank you sir, hope all is well with you. I came across this video by accident and then just couldn't turn it off, watched the whole thing lol.
Glad to see you missed me ;) Merry Christmas Tim!
Thank you, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
wish there was a caption for this video
I will try to have a look at it. Thanks for your comment.