I'm so glad that Ron is the man to put out the information I want. Ron reminds me of my old hunting buddy that was 20 years my senior. I can't say it enough alot of young men need the wing of our older generations. I'm finally 50. I try hard to pass the knowledge down that old Marty Lampkin taught me!. You other old geezers need to bring the next generations up on your leases. Remember you can change a young man's life! Marty sure changed mine! Hunt honestly and shoot straight
OK, this is the best discussion I have seen on rotational energy. I have been quite the skeptic on the delivery of this energy. But put into the context of a subsonic bullet with defined pedals I see the feasibility of it causing additional damage. When I first heard this term, I was thinking of a traditional lead core bullet and thought that smooth surface could not damage flesh much! And any energy would be better used in forward speed. But now understand that the sound barrier excludes more speed. So imparting energy on another form is the only option. Thanks for this discussion it clears up the argument for me.
@@WayStedYou That is simply inaccurate and an oversimplification. The rotation spin rate will depend on a combination of twist rate and bullet velocity. A subsonic with a 1:3 twist rate could spin faster than a supersonic bullet with a 1:20 twist. Also kind of pointless within the context of this specific discussion.
@@WayStedYou It's a way of generating more energy when the requirement is subsonic. And going up to .338 vs .30 makes that quiet round deliver a lot more on target. Still, a .30 going 3000 fps with a "slow" spin is going to do more than a .338 at 1000 fps with a fast spin.
Ron that man is very smart 40 years ago I built a 264 win mag with a fast twist barrel. And I definitely think that it kills better than a standard twist. Instead of just dieing they land on their head
I'll say it. For the main stated purpose of the 8.6 (subsonic hunting), I think the 338ARC makes more sense. 1000fps is a 1000fps. So why would I want to use an AR10 sized platform when I can get similar subsonic performance from an AR15 sized platform? Or, why would I want to by a Q Repair for $3000 when you know companies like Ruger or Howa will come out with $400 dollar bolt action options for the 338ARC that you can buy? And you know that companies will come out with fast twist rates for other cartridges like the 338ARC, 350 Legend, etc, if people are stuck on the potential for rotational force as something they want. All of these rounds in general are solutions for problems that don't exist, and just push us further in to the niche world.
To add to what you said. With the 338ARC you can run a little cheaper bullets at 1 in 7. I've personally watched a bullet come apart with the 8.6 Blk. I can't afford to go plinking with copper bullets.
Very interesting. Has this been investigated or could it be applicable with a handgun round such as the .45 ACP? This round seems to fit the criteria, subsonic, large diameter. With correct bullet design could be a defensive game changer.
Because of the large number of antique .45acp that couldn’t handle higher pressures, 45 is unlikely to benefit from bullets designed for fast twists. 10mm has the case capacity and pressure level to justify long heavy bullets
I knew a guy years ago that was working on a 7" 1911 45 Super barrel with a fast, faster than normal twist rate. He died prior to getting anywhere with it unfortunately. This was before a lot of the copper Monolithics were available, but I imagine you are correct with the right bullet that would be a game changer.
@@tombearclaw I don't think low pressure has anything to do with twist rates. What's stopping people from making 1-5 barrels for .45? Is it just not long enough?
Just realized something. If the bullets keep getting longer and longer, and if they keep going slower and slower, pretty soon they will have reinvented the arrow! 😂😂😂
So if I'm understanding this right, the only two cons to the uber fast twist is: Spin drift at range. (although I'm not sure how much this will be affected at subsonic velocities. I've never tested it at these twist rates) It completely eliminates the ability to shoot cheap bullets (like say coated cast lead) for plinking or training. I know in 300 BO, shooting coated lead in a 1-7 or 8 twist barrel will about double or even triple the group size at 50 yards but for blasting at short range, that's fine. But, being committed to only being able to shoot solid copper bullets at a buck or more each (just the bullet not the whole cartridge) is totally worth it for a theoretical 17% increase in terminal performance.
They still use a basic jacketed bullet for plinking, because a 300gr Sierra matchking won't come apart, but pushing a supersonic one will. Hypothetically, a well designed plated Hardcast hollow nosed bullet would also work in subsonic for this. Maybe even a thick bonded bullet might work in subs too... like if Winchester made a 338 ultra long version of their bonded ranger, or a federal HST.
Ok, You Increase the twist rate because you increase the Bullet weight and lengh. But you have to slow it down, to about Sub-Sonic(Or under 1500 fps) and decrease Range. Ok if you only hunt a 100 yds and under. If I go to 338 cal It would be a 338 WM with max 225 Grns Bullets. Can hunt from 50 yds out to 300 yds. If I get the Dope right, a bit further
Ron this is very exciting news for the hunting public . What they said about slower , larger bullets are where most of the advantages are.my question is what is going to be the impact of the new thinking on black powder shotgun slug market.
Finally..Very Good. Having n still playing with subsonic loads in a 06.. FUN havent took anything yet n useing Subsonic type bullets btw. Am wondering IF the faster twist rate here makes non subsonic designs open similarly to how there designed to perform. N what that twist rate needs to be. He mention Monolithics exploding like a shotgun.
Yes. Bryan Litz in Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting gives an example of a Berger 7mm 180gr vld shot from 1:9 and 1:6 twist barrels. At 1200 yds, spin drift was 13.3" for the 9 twist and 8.9" for the 6 twist. Litz has several books on long range shooting written so most of us can get a basic understanding of what's going on. Library if you can because the books are spendy.
@@stephenarmstrong7354 , Thanks for the info. Was surprised that the faster twist rate had a lot less spin drift. We truly are never done learning are we!
@@stephenarmstrong7354 , Thanks for the info. I was truly surprised that the faster twist rate had a lot less spin drift. We truly are never done learning!!
It's hard to imagine bullets being able to twist that quickly under so much pressure...you'd think the jackets would get stripped off in the barrel or something...seems unnatural! I wonder about barrel wear and barrel cleaning requirements for such fast twist. Uniquely interesting. Thank you.
Actually that's exactly what happens to any normal or cast bullets in 8.6, you have to use copper solids, do a search and look at all the blown up suppressors from exploding bullets in the can
Couple of questions. Will Hammer bullets work in this cartridge? Since these are designed for short barrels, will they work in say a bolt action with a 16, 18 or even longer barrel?
I believe the philosophy that all the energy exiting was not deposited into the animal thus nearly wasted( nearly because an exit wound does equal blood trail) we have to remember trauma kills, period; regardless of our preconceptions. If this fast twist causes more trauma it will be more lethal.
I totally disagree there on the supressor needed for subsonic other wise waste of time. I can tell you subsonic 06 857 n 22lr the bullet hitting target is louder than the shot. But 22 24 inch barrels as well.. Now if only Trailboss would become available again.
The main issue is that shooters need to know which bullets are designed for these hyper-fast barrel twists. For supersonic loads, that eliminates most of the bullets on the market today. The stress on the skin of a bullet goes up 4 times when the spin rate is doubled. I know that one copper bullet maker had to redesign its supersonic 300 Blackout bullet to deal with Q's 1:5 twist rate. The bullet was optimized for the SAAMI standard of 1:7 but would sometimes open up as soon as it left the barrel of a 1:5 gun (and damage suppressors). Part of the reason behind SAAMI standardization is to provide standards that manufacturers use for designing bullets, so most existing bullets are designed for old established cartridges That part about "imperfections in bullet construction" is very important when pushing bullets beyond their design parameters. Whereas that was just a nuisance for traditional-twist rifles (typically an accuracy issue), it will be a much more expensive one for those running suppressors or those making a Once-In-a-Lifetime-Hunt. I would be nervous running bullets not designed specifically for the high rotational speeds. In perspective, increasing energy on target by 17% using high spin is equivalent of increasing the velocity by about 8% for a supersonic load. In other words, it is indeed an increase, just not a massive one.
@@ravissary79 The bullet that had problems with the faster twist was a monolithic bullet. When it was redesigned for the faster twist barrels, the performance became slightly worse for everyone else. Monolithic bullets adhere to the same laws of physics as other bullets. They are selectively weakened to expand and can expand prematurely of overspun. This particular bullet was designed to open at a lower velocity than most and was more sensitive to high spin rates.
There may not be such a thing as overstabilzation, but to much rotation causes excessive and unpredictable spindrift, the unpredictable being the main problem
@@jasonshults368 extensive experience says it very much is the case. And wind from behind: excessive bullet jump, wind from the front: excessive bullet drop, and aching to a bullet going through the transonic zone the effect is never consistent. Thanks for your useless reply though. Maybe when you have years of experience, come back and give a comment based on experience and not opinion
Hey ron spomer outdoors I've been watching your videos for about a year now just became a patreon I'm from California hunting blacktail and black beat so I don't have a big need for a big cartridge I have 30-06 and currently in the process of getting a 270 win but I'm planning an elk in Colorado next year will my first elk will my 30-06 going to be good enough I'm pretty comfortable with it out to 500 yards but I'm looking for a bullet suggestion sorry for the long message, I'm looking forward to any advice and again shoot honest and shoot straight ron thank you
A heavy bullet at fast twist rate will apply significantly higher torque to the rifle or pistol. Haven’t tried it, but may cause accuracy problems and if in a handgun some sore wrist.
You can see this effect on s&w 500 shooting slow mo vids. Or full power 44 mag. It definitely does torque. But with the same mass coming out if a rifle being securely held with 3-5 points of contact, it's less of a felt concern. But it's indeed there.
Im disappointed that a key problem in overstabilization wasn't described at all... and that's what it even is: Yes, its possible for evwn a hypothetically perfect bullet to ve too stable... how? It means the gyroscopic force keeps the bullets' orientation TOO much, not metrly keeping it from tumbling, but also keeping it from arcing at long range. At longer distances you don't shoot bullets at targets but above them and drop naturally arcs the path off its initial trajectory, when it does, like an arrow, the bullet needs to stay perpendicular to the face of the target alimg its path, changing its orientation from being perpendicular to its initial straight path to now pointing slightly downward as the path decays and the path itself points downward. Thibk of it like football spin. The perfect amount of spin lets the football stay point forward even at long range, allowing it to rotate along the axis of its path not merely its starting direction. But a football thats thrown with extremely high spin will eventually skew and nose up or belly flop because its exteme stability is resisting the correctional force of the wind to keep it nose on target. Under 200 yards this isn't a problem, because the path won't arc enough for it to be noticible. Its also somewhat self correcting the longer the bullet is because any uneven wind along a tilted axis on a much longer lever arm on a long bullet, so the nose will tend to self correct. This is why velocity is also important and more spin is less bad on subsonic bullets. A fast bullet self corrects with increased drag on a yawing tail. But with high spin, more velocity also means more RPMS. So these forces battle eachother. Its unclear to me where the thresholds are.
If you put a 8.6 in a barrel with a traditional twist rate and compare it with the 1:3. Will the traditional barrel not show a higher speed and show people where the energy is going?
From what I understand yes, the low twist barrel will show slightly higher velocity. I've seen tests doing this in 300 blk, it's clear. So if you ran the supers in a 1:5 or 1:6.5 theyd indeed be faster, but theyd also start to fail to open at lower speeds. With subs this is accounted for in the propellant recipe. The sane load just under the speed of sound in a lower twist barrel might break the speed of sound, wasting ots potential as a subsonic bullet.
8.6 BO is trash. It's just super bad 338 fed. It's been long established that kinetic energy does absolutely nothing for wounding, slightly increasing the KE by making an absurd twist rate does nothing terminally. Q is just super mad about the much better 338 ARC, moving the same subsonic bullets in a smaller action.
"It does nothing terminally" Both theoretically, in gel and hunting testimonials all prove you wrong. Sinply saying "nuh uh!!!" isn't supporting your position you're just sticking your head in the sand. MAC channel even proved this years ago with the rattler and gel doing side by side demonstrations using a much lower twist difference. It objectively makes a big difference.
@@robinsokthe bullets are fatter for a fixed ar15 max length equal to 300 blk, so the twist is less necessary for stability. Hornady also was maximizing accuracy of their particular bullet products, a cup and core jacketed lead bullet that is suppsed to expand like a critical defense. High twist would tear that bullet up.
@@forestgiest1380no more than a high speed soft point does. The goal is to make subs impart enough energy that they start to emulate some of the terminal benefits of fast bullets. Heavy subs also have their own different wounding mechanisms, more like big hunting revolvers... combine the effects and it should be more effective hypothetically. But you're not going to increase pulpifying effects beyond what 3000 fps is doing to tissue.
This was an interesting conversation indeed. What about progressive twist? Why don't we hear more about it? Also, a friend bought a Q Honey Badger. He regrets it because as many others have experienced, they tend to be problematic out of the box. If I were him I would send it back and demand a refund.
I think it's because progressive twist isn't offered much. Hardly anyone seems to be enough of a expert on it, but I'd wager it has benefits on stabilizing large soft bullets, which are prone to be damaged by the inertial jump high twist has on bullets.... straight straight SPIN FAST! The inertia will impart an internal resisting force that might deform the bullet or increase fouling or tear the skin from the core, etc. A twist that slowly accelerates has really 1 benefit, it overcomes this inertia over time instead of all at once... this is likely ideal if you're shooting long pure lead subs... or long 12 Guage slugs from a slug gun.
No one has addressed the elephant in the room, trajectory! A sub sonic projectile has abysmal trajectories. But worse, with that kind of high rotation you get rotational pull that doesn’t affect the supersonic bullet to the point where it’s really a problem. There was a gentleman that was trying to do some long range shooting with his 86 blackout and was having trouble hitting past about 175 yards because of that rotational pull. This is nothing more than today’s shiny gimmick.
I still think it’s snake oil. Big subsonic bullets like this kill by tissue destruction, not energy transfer against game. 8.6blk in its subsonic form exits the muzzle with just enough energy to be a major factor in human tissue destruction. Game animals, even little southeastern white tails, are much hardier than people and require more energy for incapacitation. Hornady has chosen the right way with expanding bullets in a lighter platform.
Savage, I agree that tissue destruction/discombobulation is what kills, but these subsonic bullets seem to be doing the job. Bullet mass seems sufficient to maintain momentum sufficient to reach and tear vital organs on animals as large, heavy, and durable as zebra, kudu, eland, and Cape buffalo. I do believe projectiles must expand maximally in order to create the mechanism for taking advantage of that extreme rotation, i.e. protruding petals that rip and tear. So long as the bullet has sufficient momentum to reach vitals, traditional expansion and velocity work, but so can these enhanced rotation subsonics. They are quite popular with feral pig hunters.
@@josojoso1974possibly. It's a bigger company selling a basic jacketed bullet.... it's just cheaper by design. But x being more common or more popular isn't the only measure of quality or success.
Everyone whines about the cost of Q products but if you shop around you’ll find that most of the competition’s cost is about the same. In the past 6 months I’ve purchased a Mini Fix and a Honey Badger (which I hope to pick up this week). God willing, Trump wins and I can buy my Boom Box next.
Q has very neat, intricate, and unique guns, but yeah I'm all about performance and price over uniqueness. If a gun does the same thing like launching a projectile in the same fashion at ¼ of the price, I'm gonna save my money, and practice more.
What a load of crap, super fast twist rates have been debunked already many times. The fast twist adds little to nothing to terminal ballistics, it's just Q selling expensive guns with ridiculously expensive ammo ($3+ a round) Berger says 1/8 twist is more than enough to stabilize their longest 338 bullet at subsonic velocities, 338 arc or 338 specter are much better and can use regular and cast boolits.
Q isn’t selling ammo, so don’t see how ammo price is on them. And if you think $3/round is ridiculously expensive, wait until you find out about Nosler and Weatherby.
Exaggerating something by 300x only proves the Exaggeration is ridiculous, not the thing being Exaggerated. 30 fps isn't 1000 fps. The 8.6 at the low end is still traveling 200 fps faster than 45 acp... with 100 extra grains of mass.
Goodness the snake oil is thick with this fast rotation nonsense. The animal would never know the difference between 1:3 and 1:5 or 1:8. Like a broad head on an arrow it isn’t about how much it rotates but what it cuts through that is directly in its path. The permanent wound channel is what matters and that is direct contact with the projectile. The super fast twist is nothing more than marketing hype
Have you even seen what the path looks like in gel? Good lord the ignorance. Research before you talk smack. Obviously if you have multiple cutting surfaces passing through an an animal, the more the cutting surfaces spin, the larger the surface area of the internal wound, and the greater the chance that increased surface area will cut 1 or more major blood vessels. But hey, you know everything.
@@ravissary79 yep, I’ve seen tons of testing and permanent wound cavities are negligibly different from slower twists. I’ve also done more testing and shooting than most average people. Gel is also not a good representation of what happens inside flesh and bones. I appreciate that it is a consistent medium but it in no way replicates what happens inside a real body. If you want to believe going to a super fast twist makes a huge difference feel free, it’s a free country. Have a good one!
@@Helfirearms gel =/= tissue, but it allows you to visualize the path. The increased surface area is on full display. Obviously the animal is where the proof of the pudding is, and as with cutting edge bullets, which people said was snake oil... as well as with Extreme penetrator bullets, which people also called snake oil... actual field performance seems to support the gel activity and the physics. Just saying it's bunk is hollow. Saying you shoot more than most is also hollow. So do a LOT of people. Do you shoot 1:3 twist a lot? Do you shoot 338 cal 350 gr expanding subsonics a lot? What kind of experience could you have that invalidates something you don't shoot? Thats like saying you've been married 4x therfore marriage is a crock. Your marriage isn't my marriage. Unless your experience is demonstrably applicable to the topic, it's irrelevant.
@@ravissary79 yep I’ve done tons of shooting and testing with varying mediums with both subsonic and supersonic and varying twist rates and calibers, in my experience the faster twist does not equal more deadly. My experience doesn’t matter to you and that is fine. Again, free country and you can believe what you want. The marriage comparison is silly at best, someone with lots of shooting and ballistic experience would be more like marriage counselor than a person that’s been married a bunch of times. Have a good weekend, hunt honest and shoot straight!
What about making barrels that have a progressively faster twist the farther from the chamber…: like maybe have a traditional twist rate at throat and then get faster and faster where at the muzzle it’s like a 1:3 twist…. Bullets would probably not come apart as bad
I'm so glad that Ron is the man to put out the information I want. Ron reminds me of my old hunting buddy that was 20 years my senior. I can't say it enough alot of young men need the wing of our older generations.
I'm finally 50. I try hard to pass the knowledge down that old Marty Lampkin taught me!.
You other old geezers need to bring the next generations up on your leases.
Remember you can change a young man's life! Marty sure changed mine!
Hunt honestly and shoot straight
We're all standing on the shoulders of giants
OK, this is the best discussion I have seen on rotational energy. I have been quite the skeptic on the delivery of this energy. But put into the context of a subsonic bullet with defined pedals I see the feasibility of it causing additional damage.
When I first heard this term, I was thinking of a traditional lead core bullet and thought that smooth surface could not damage flesh much! And any energy would be better used in forward speed. But now understand that the sound barrier excludes more speed. So imparting energy on another form is the only option. Thanks for this discussion it clears up the argument for me.
Until you realize you only get fast rotation with supersonic speeds.
Once it's subsonic, it rotates far slower than a regular rifle round
@@WayStedYou That is simply inaccurate and an oversimplification. The rotation spin rate will depend on a combination of twist rate and bullet velocity. A subsonic with a 1:3 twist rate could spin faster than a supersonic bullet with a 1:20 twist. Also kind of pointless within the context of this specific discussion.
@@WayStedYou It's a way of generating more energy when the requirement is subsonic. And going up to .338 vs .30 makes that quiet round deliver a lot more on target. Still, a .30 going 3000 fps with a "slow" spin is going to do more than a .338 at 1000 fps with a fast spin.
Ron that man is very smart 40 years ago I built a 264 win mag with a fast twist barrel. And I definitely think that it kills better than a standard twist. Instead of just dieing they land on their head
This was far more interesting than I had expected. Thank you gentlemen.
Enjoyed show, The Engineer was one the Best Guest you ever had,
Terrific insight. Thank You!
I'll say it. For the main stated purpose of the 8.6 (subsonic hunting), I think the 338ARC makes more sense. 1000fps is a 1000fps. So why would I want to use an AR10 sized platform when I can get similar subsonic performance from an AR15 sized platform?
Or, why would I want to by a Q Repair for $3000 when you know companies like Ruger or Howa will come out with $400 dollar bolt action options for the 338ARC that you can buy?
And you know that companies will come out with fast twist rates for other cartridges like the 338ARC, 350 Legend, etc, if people are stuck on the potential for rotational force as something they want.
All of these rounds in general are solutions for problems that don't exist, and just push us further in to the niche world.
To add to what you said. With the 338ARC you can run a little cheaper bullets at 1 in 7. I've personally watched a bullet come apart with the 8.6 Blk. I can't afford to go plinking with copper bullets.
Very interesting. Has this been investigated or could it be applicable with a handgun round such as the .45 ACP? This round seems to fit the criteria, subsonic, large diameter. With correct bullet design could be a defensive game changer.
Because of the large number of antique .45acp that couldn’t handle higher pressures, 45 is unlikely to benefit from bullets designed for fast twists.
10mm has the case capacity and pressure level to justify long heavy bullets
I knew a guy years ago that was working on a 7" 1911 45 Super barrel with a fast, faster than normal twist rate. He died prior to getting anywhere with it unfortunately. This was before a lot of the copper Monolithics were available, but I imagine you are correct with the right bullet that would be a game changer.
@@tombearclaw
I don't think low pressure has anything to do with twist rates. What's stopping people from making 1-5 barrels for .45? Is it just not long enough?
Very interesting stuff. Great video.
Just realized something. If the bullets keep getting longer and longer, and if they keep going slower and slower, pretty soon they will have reinvented the arrow! 😂😂😂
So if I'm understanding this right, the only two cons to the uber fast twist is:
Spin drift at range. (although I'm not sure how much this will be affected at subsonic velocities. I've never tested it at these twist rates)
It completely eliminates the ability to shoot cheap bullets (like say coated cast lead) for plinking or training. I know in 300 BO, shooting coated lead in a 1-7 or 8 twist barrel will about double or even triple the group size at 50 yards but for blasting at short range, that's fine. But, being committed to only being able to shoot solid copper bullets at a buck or more each (just the bullet not the whole cartridge) is totally worth it for a theoretical 17% increase in terminal performance.
They still use a basic jacketed bullet for plinking, because a 300gr Sierra matchking won't come apart, but pushing a supersonic one will.
Hypothetically, a well designed plated Hardcast hollow nosed bullet would also work in subsonic for this.
Maybe even a thick bonded bullet might work in subs too... like if Winchester made a 338 ultra long version of their bonded ranger, or a federal HST.
Ok, You Increase the twist rate because you increase the Bullet weight and lengh. But you have to slow it down, to about Sub-Sonic(Or under 1500 fps) and decrease Range. Ok if you only hunt a 100 yds and under. If I go to 338 cal It would be a 338 WM with max 225 Grns Bullets. Can hunt from 50 yds out to 300 yds. If I get the Dope right, a bit further
Ron this is very exciting news for the hunting public . What they said about slower , larger bullets are where most of the advantages are.my question is what is going to be the impact of the new thinking on black powder shotgun slug market.
Finally..Very Good. Having n still playing with subsonic loads in a 06.. FUN havent took anything yet n useing Subsonic type bullets btw.
Am wondering IF the faster twist rate here makes non subsonic designs open similarly to how there designed to perform. N what that twist rate needs to be.
He mention Monolithics exploding like a shotgun.
Does this fast spin rate cause the bullet to have a greater "spin drift" at longer ranges? I've read snipers talk about this on long range shots.
Yes. Bryan Litz in Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting gives an example of a Berger 7mm 180gr vld shot from 1:9 and 1:6 twist barrels. At 1200 yds, spin drift was 13.3" for the 9 twist and 8.9" for the 6 twist. Litz has several books on long range shooting written so most of us can get a basic understanding of what's going on. Library if you can because the books are spendy.
@@stephenarmstrong7354 , Thanks for the info. Was surprised that the faster twist rate had a lot less spin drift. We truly are never done learning are we!
@@stephenarmstrong7354 , Thanks for the info. I was truly surprised that the faster twist rate had a lot less spin drift. We truly are never done learning!!
Pretty irrelevant when you look at the ballistics of the 8.6BO. long range is approaching indirect fire.
@NElj-yq9qi Apologies, I messed up. The faster twist rate was 13.3 and 8.9 was the slower twist. Should have proofread before posting.
Super interesting, more please ♥️
It's hard to imagine bullets being able to twist that quickly under so much pressure...you'd think the jackets would get stripped off in the barrel or something...seems unnatural!
I wonder about barrel wear and barrel cleaning requirements for such fast twist.
Uniquely interesting.
Thank you.
Actually that's exactly what happens to any normal or cast bullets in 8.6, you have to use copper solids, do a search and look at all the blown up suppressors from exploding bullets in the can
They're mostly not using jacketed bullets. It's mostly monolithic hps.
Expensive bullets!
22 minutes before the military was mentioned!
Couple of questions.
Will Hammer bullets work in this cartridge?
Since these are designed for short barrels, will they work in say a bolt action with a 16, 18 or even longer barrel?
I want a Q rifle but GEEZ LOUISE THE PRICE. I will have to wait for ruger or savage to make one similar and then jump on it.
Or just get a new barrel in 8.6 BO for a 308 rifle - no need for new mags or bolt.
Bear creek has one
Please look into applying this technology to the super sonic 350 Legend. It would definitely improve terminal performance.
I believe the philosophy that all the energy exiting was not deposited into the animal thus nearly wasted( nearly because an exit wound does equal blood trail) we have to remember trauma kills, period; regardless of our preconceptions. If this fast twist causes more trauma it will be more lethal.
I totally disagree there on the supressor needed for subsonic other wise waste of time.
I can tell you subsonic 06 857 n 22lr the bullet hitting target is louder than the shot.
But 22 24 inch barrels as well..
Now if only Trailboss would become available again.
I would love to get a 8.6 blackout, what I don't want is to pay Q's mark up.
Well, you wouldn’t have it without Q
338 ARC
@@chuckfinley3152 also
Build your own then. The barrels aren't that expensive. Mags and bolts are standard.
@@chuckfinley3152not really the same thing.
The main issue is that shooters need to know which bullets are designed for these hyper-fast barrel twists. For supersonic loads, that eliminates most of the bullets on the market today. The stress on the skin of a bullet goes up 4 times when the spin rate is doubled. I know that one copper bullet maker had to redesign its supersonic 300 Blackout bullet to deal with Q's 1:5 twist rate. The bullet was optimized for the SAAMI standard of 1:7 but would sometimes open up as soon as it left the barrel of a 1:5 gun (and damage suppressors). Part of the reason behind SAAMI standardization is to provide standards that manufacturers use for designing bullets, so most existing bullets are designed for old established cartridges That part about "imperfections in bullet construction" is very important when pushing bullets beyond their design parameters. Whereas that was just a nuisance for traditional-twist rifles (typically an accuracy issue), it will be a much more expensive one for those running suppressors or those making a Once-In-a-Lifetime-Hunt. I would be nervous running bullets not designed specifically for the high rotational speeds.
In perspective, increasing energy on target by 17% using high spin is equivalent of increasing the velocity by about 8% for a supersonic load. In other words, it is indeed an increase, just not a massive one.
Reload monolithic bullets.
Barnes, hammer, cutting edge, Hornady CE... don't load supersonic jacketed bullets.
@@ravissary79 The bullet that had problems with the faster twist was a monolithic bullet. When it was redesigned for the faster twist barrels, the performance became slightly worse for everyone else. Monolithic bullets adhere to the same laws of physics as other bullets. They are selectively weakened to expand and can expand prematurely of overspun. This particular bullet was designed to open at a lower velocity than most and was more sensitive to high spin rates.
Bear creek has a 8.6 AR for around $600
There may not be such a thing as overstabilzation, but to much rotation causes excessive and unpredictable spindrift, the unpredictable being the main problem
That is not the case.
@@jasonshults368 extensive experience says it very much is the case.
And wind from behind: excessive bullet jump, wind from the front: excessive bullet drop, and aching to a bullet going through the transonic zone the effect is never consistent.
Thanks for your useless reply though.
Maybe when you have years of experience, come back and give a comment based on experience and not opinion
@@TheXaelemspin drift is predictable
@@TheXaelemspin drift yes. Unpredictable no. It's measurable and very predictable.
I want a 7 inch 300 Blackout barrel with a 1in 5 twist!
Q sells an aftermarket barrel, facing probably does too.
Hey ron spomer outdoors I've been watching your videos for about a year now just became a patreon I'm from California hunting blacktail and black beat so I don't have a big need for a big cartridge I have 30-06 and currently in the process of getting a 270 win but I'm planning an elk in Colorado next year will my first elk will my 30-06 going to be good enough I'm pretty comfortable with it out to 500 yards but I'm looking for a bullet suggestion sorry for the long message, I'm looking forward to any advice and again shoot honest and shoot straight ron thank you
A heavy bullet at fast twist rate will apply significantly higher torque to the rifle or pistol. Haven’t tried it, but may cause accuracy problems and if in a handgun some sore wrist.
You can see this effect on s&w 500 shooting slow mo vids. Or full power 44 mag. It definitely does torque.
But with the same mass coming out if a rifle being securely held with 3-5 points of contact, it's less of a felt concern.
But it's indeed there.
3 thumbs up or 5 stars ????
Thanks for the information. Shame the video had to end off talking up something what we can't have in Canada.
Im disappointed that a key problem in overstabilization wasn't described at all... and that's what it even is:
Yes, its possible for evwn a hypothetically perfect bullet to ve too stable... how? It means the gyroscopic force keeps the bullets' orientation TOO much, not metrly keeping it from tumbling, but also keeping it from arcing at long range. At longer distances you don't shoot bullets at targets but above them and drop naturally arcs the path off its initial trajectory, when it does, like an arrow, the bullet needs to stay perpendicular to the face of the target alimg its path, changing its orientation from being perpendicular to its initial straight path to now pointing slightly downward as the path decays and the path itself points downward.
Thibk of it like football spin.
The perfect amount of spin lets the football stay point forward even at long range, allowing it to rotate along the axis of its path not merely its starting direction.
But a football thats thrown with extremely high spin will eventually skew and nose up or belly flop because its exteme stability is resisting the correctional force of the wind to keep it nose on target.
Under 200 yards this isn't a problem, because the path won't arc enough for it to be noticible.
Its also somewhat self correcting the longer the bullet is because any uneven wind along a tilted axis on a much longer lever arm on a long bullet, so the nose will tend to self correct.
This is why velocity is also important and more spin is less bad on subsonic bullets.
A fast bullet self corrects with increased drag on a yawing tail. But with high spin, more velocity also means more RPMS. So these forces battle eachother. Its unclear to me where the thresholds are.
If you put a 8.6 in a barrel with a traditional twist rate and compare it with the 1:3. Will the traditional barrel not show a higher speed and show people where the energy is going?
Higher speed in velocity
From what I understand yes, the low twist barrel will show slightly higher velocity.
I've seen tests doing this in 300 blk, it's clear.
So if you ran the supers in a 1:5 or 1:6.5 theyd indeed be faster, but theyd also start to fail to open at lower speeds.
With subs this is accounted for in the propellant recipe. The sane load just under the speed of sound in a lower twist barrel might break the speed of sound, wasting ots potential as a subsonic bullet.
I think yes, if everything else is the same with tight tolerances.
8.6 BO is trash.
It's just super bad 338 fed. It's been long established that kinetic energy does absolutely nothing for wounding, slightly increasing the KE by making an absurd twist rate does nothing terminally.
Q is just super mad about the much better 338 ARC, moving the same subsonic bullets in a smaller action.
Yeah. It's really too small for its case capacity, too. With a case that big, you should be looking at .378 cal at least for subs, IMO.
Everything you said is wrong.
"It does nothing terminally"
Both theoretically, in gel and hunting testimonials all prove you wrong.
Sinply saying "nuh uh!!!" isn't supporting your position you're just sticking your head in the sand.
MAC channel even proved this years ago with the rattler and gel doing side by side demonstrations using a much lower twist difference.
It objectively makes a big difference.
Having shot deer with 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 creedmoor, and 264 win mag, kinetic energy makes a difference.
Interesting that the 338 ARC is sticking with 1in8 apparently.
I assume you mean .338 ARC
Agreed. Thought they might have gone at least to a 1:5 twist, it's getting more popular in 300blk.
@@robinsokthe bullets are fatter for a fixed ar15 max length equal to 300 blk, so the twist is less necessary for stability.
Hornady also was maximizing accuracy of their particular bullet products, a cup and core jacketed lead bullet that is suppsed to expand like a critical defense.
High twist would tear that bullet up.
I wanna see in-depth terminal ballistic data on this supposed mystical phenomenon.
And if it does work. Does it turn all the meat into inedible pulp.
@@forestgiest1380no more than a high speed soft point does.
The goal is to make subs impart enough energy that they start to emulate some of the terminal benefits of fast bullets. Heavy subs also have their own different wounding mechanisms, more like big hunting revolvers... combine the effects and it should be more effective hypothetically.
But you're not going to increase pulpifying effects beyond what 3000 fps is doing to tissue.
This was an interesting conversation indeed.
What about progressive twist? Why don't we hear more about it?
Also, a friend bought a Q Honey Badger. He regrets it because as many others have experienced, they tend to be problematic out of the box.
If I were him I would send it back and demand a refund.
I think it's because progressive twist isn't offered much. Hardly anyone seems to be enough of a expert on it, but I'd wager it has benefits on stabilizing large soft bullets, which are prone to be damaged by the inertial jump high twist has on bullets.... straight straight SPIN FAST! The inertia will impart an internal resisting force that might deform the bullet or increase fouling or tear the skin from the core, etc.
A twist that slowly accelerates has really 1 benefit, it overcomes this inertia over time instead of all at once... this is likely ideal if you're shooting long pure lead subs... or long 12 Guage slugs from a slug gun.
No one has addressed the elephant in the room, trajectory! A sub sonic projectile has abysmal trajectories. But worse, with that kind of high rotation you get rotational pull that doesn’t affect the supersonic bullet to the point where it’s really a problem. There was a gentleman that was trying to do some long range shooting with his 86 blackout and was having trouble hitting past about 175 yards because of that rotational pull. This is nothing more than today’s shiny gimmick.
I still think it’s snake oil. Big subsonic bullets like this kill by tissue destruction, not energy transfer against game. 8.6blk in its subsonic form exits the muzzle with just enough energy to be a major factor in human tissue destruction. Game animals, even little southeastern white tails, are much hardier than people and require more energy for incapacitation. Hornady has chosen the right way with expanding bullets in a lighter platform.
Savage, I agree that tissue destruction/discombobulation is what kills, but these subsonic bullets seem to be doing the job. Bullet mass seems sufficient to maintain momentum sufficient to reach and tear vital organs on animals as large, heavy, and durable as zebra, kudu, eland, and Cape buffalo. I do believe projectiles must expand maximally in order to create the mechanism for taking advantage of that extreme rotation, i.e. protruding petals that rip and tear. So long as the bullet has sufficient momentum to reach vitals, traditional expansion and velocity work, but so can these enhanced rotation subsonics. They are quite popular with feral pig hunters.
Fast twist also opens up these big copper pedals like a mechanical broadhead, that destroys a lot of tissue.
They just mad because they know that 338 ARC will have a much more spread than 8.6 blk
If by spread you mean larger groups.
@@kevinbrittingham6774
No ,I think more people will have 338 ARC over 8.6 blk.
For the grups I am sure that ARC will be better.
@@josojoso1974 you’re just not smart. 1:8 will not provide accuracy with 300 gr. 338 subs.
@@josojoso1974possibly. It's a bigger company selling a basic jacketed bullet.... it's just cheaper by design.
But x being more common or more popular isn't the only measure of quality or success.
I don’t think 338 ARC will catch on, a little too niche.
Everyone whines about the cost of Q products but if you shop around you’ll find that most of the competition’s cost is about the same. In the past 6 months I’ve purchased a Mini Fix and a Honey Badger (which I hope to pick up this week). God willing, Trump wins and I can buy my Boom Box next.
I would never pay for a q gun when psa or anyone else is so cheap i can get 5 for one with 5 warranties lmao
Q has very neat, intricate, and unique guns, but yeah I'm all about performance and price over uniqueness.
If a gun does the same thing like launching a projectile in the same fashion at ¼ of the price, I'm gonna save my money, and practice more.
Odd flex... you do you boo.
Lol.....
Tell me you're poor without saying you're poor
@@NELLY-jg2rx Not just poor but a horridly low brow.
What a load of crap, super fast twist rates have been debunked already many times. The fast twist adds little to nothing to terminal ballistics, it's just Q selling expensive guns with ridiculously expensive ammo ($3+ a round) Berger says 1/8 twist is more than enough to stabilize their longest 338 bullet at subsonic velocities, 338 arc or 338 specter are much better and can use regular and cast boolits.
You must be right cause Kevin isn’t commenting that you’re wrong 😂
Q isn’t selling ammo, so don’t see how ammo price is on them. And if you think $3/round is ridiculously expensive, wait until you find out about Nosler and Weatherby.
sounds bogus, like a joke or something. lets launch a 500 grain bullet at 30 feet per second
Exaggerating something by 300x only proves the Exaggeration is ridiculous, not the thing being Exaggerated.
30 fps isn't 1000 fps.
The 8.6 at the low end is still traveling 200 fps faster than 45 acp... with 100 extra grains of mass.
Goodness the snake oil is thick with this fast rotation nonsense. The animal would never know the difference between 1:3 and 1:5 or 1:8. Like a broad head on an arrow it isn’t about how much it rotates but what it cuts through that is directly in its path. The permanent wound channel is what matters and that is direct contact with the projectile. The super fast twist is nothing more than marketing hype
Have you even seen what the path looks like in gel? Good lord the ignorance. Research before you talk smack.
Obviously if you have multiple cutting surfaces passing through an an animal, the more the cutting surfaces spin, the larger the surface area of the internal wound, and the greater the chance that increased surface area will cut 1 or more major blood vessels.
But hey, you know everything.
@@ravissary79 yep, I’ve seen tons of testing and permanent wound cavities are negligibly different from slower twists. I’ve also done more testing and shooting than most average people. Gel is also not a good representation of what happens inside flesh and bones. I appreciate that it is a consistent medium but it in no way replicates what happens inside a real body. If you want to believe going to a super fast twist makes a huge difference feel free, it’s a free country. Have a good one!
@@Helfirearms gel =/= tissue, but it allows you to visualize the path. The increased surface area is on full display. Obviously the animal is where the proof of the pudding is, and as with cutting edge bullets, which people said was snake oil... as well as with Extreme penetrator bullets, which people also called snake oil... actual field performance seems to support the gel activity and the physics.
Just saying it's bunk is hollow.
Saying you shoot more than most is also hollow. So do a LOT of people. Do you shoot 1:3 twist a lot?
Do you shoot 338 cal 350 gr expanding subsonics a lot?
What kind of experience could you have that invalidates something you don't shoot?
Thats like saying you've been married 4x therfore marriage is a crock. Your marriage isn't my marriage. Unless your experience is demonstrably applicable to the topic, it's irrelevant.
@@ravissary79 yep I’ve done tons of shooting and testing with varying mediums with both subsonic and supersonic and varying twist rates and calibers, in my experience the faster twist does not equal more deadly. My experience doesn’t matter to you and that is fine. Again, free country and you can believe what you want. The marriage comparison is silly at best, someone with lots of shooting and ballistic experience would be more like marriage counselor than a person that’s been married a bunch of times. Have a good weekend, hunt honest and shoot straight!
Agreed 👍
What about making barrels that have a progressively faster twist the farther from the chamber…: like maybe have a traditional twist rate at throat and then get faster and faster where at the muzzle it’s like a 1:3 twist…. Bullets would probably not come apart as bad