I wish cell phone makers would learn from this, I would be happy if they would make a phone that's slightly thicker to gain hours of battery life. but no, everyone wants to make everything as thin as possible...
@@ihatesmartphones YES YES YES. And stop this nonsense of building the battery in so that you can't replace it without returning the whole phone to the manufacturer.
@@BrianG61UK A removable battery of course is also useful for a good ol' hard reset, which I've needed to do more than once. Bad apps can temporarily brick a phone to where the power button doesn't even work, but popping the battery does!
My early Nokias came with the battery as a clip-on pack on the back. They only gave you a couple of weeks battery life. But you could get high-capacity backs that were thicker, and they would go for a month or two.
Also, in my experience, 9V batteries are also harder to find these days, my impression is that the market seems to be focusing on AA and to a lesser degree on AAA for non-rechargeable devices.... You can still generally find AA and AAA in random corner stores but not so much other types.
I wish more meters used AAs. Modern meter chips can work on 2.5V or less, which makes 9V batteries quite wasteful. Replace LDOs with micro-power switching regulators and you can get another 30-40% extra battery life from a 4xAA pack.
Not just the most common, also the cheapest per watt-hour among primary cells. 2.5-3X the capacity for slightly more money and bulk than comparable quality AAA.
Imagine for a minute, that there was a device that could boost the battery voltage to 1.05V... You'd get another hundred hours... Something small enough to clip onto the battery before you install it into the compartment... Wonder if anyone could ever find something like that... HA! Anyway, 9V batteries are like R50 each; 4 AA batteries are R25. So not only are you getting 4 times the life, you're getting it for half the cost. AA is the standard these days - that's what's most sold and therefore most developed - choosing ANY other battery (except for maybe an 18650) is pissing into the wind.
I have actually been putting off getting a logging multimeter for awhile to get my self one of these Cant wait to get my hands on one while supporting your channel! Also all the others use Bluetooth and long term logging over Bluetooth is just an unnecessary pain
EEVblog Which is a bit sad when one realizes that Bluetooth has now been around for nearly 20 years, though it does not help that it is yet another technology crammed into a very crowded 2.4GHz ISM band with so many sources of interference that can momentarily jam it. My first PDA, a Compaq iPaq Pocket PC running Windows CE, included Bluetooth back in 1999-2000, which was actually pretty reliable back then, but then there was not much in the way of WiFi and other 2.4GHz devices at that point and Bluetooth was literally its wireless network connection at up to whopping 1Mbps.
The cheap ones almost never use individual encapsulated AAAA cells - just a simple stack of rectangular wax-coated cells with a piece of cardboard between them.
Alkaline batteries will probably use cylindrical cells, to contain the electrolyte, whereas carbon-based ones will usually contain cheap rectangular cells.
i haven't seen any other mfg make videos on why they made the decisions they did... thank you, Dave. PS definitely want one of these now that i know you have the best interests and design of your product in mind
The big bonus is the battery cost for AA is the best, AAA cost about double AA with half the life. I hate electronics that use AAA batteries for that reason, half the life for double the cost.
@@1ohtaf1 same here AAA and AA are the same price, tho AA has almost three times the capacity. but i dont mind AAA batteries, if device doesnt draw much its okay, but in this case his battery choice is good, especially they made it in the way it discharges untill 1,05v, which is excellent if you want to use rechargable batteries
I am using AA NiMH accumulators everywhere, so 4 x AA was a very good choice. I really like it. And 9V batteries are quite expensive if you need to replace them often and the 9V accumulators don't worky very well.
Personally I don't mind the double A's. Always have decent ones lying around. Interesting to see the logic behind it. Data sheets are great if you put in the effort to get a well thought of design. Can't wait for the release of the meter ^^
I am sick and tired of finding devices that are big enough for AA but require AAA instead. Someone should slap those engineers in the face. What planet do they live on?!
welll... im quite a fan of AAA, for remote controlls for example they use so little and i really like them not being heavy. triple A lasts about two years or more in my tv remote anyways
Good think piece! I also really like the Saturn VI rocket model in the background. I worked for Boeing, and one of the Washington State sites had a 7 foot tall model of it in the lobby of one of the buildings. That was cool as well. I so wanted to take off the third stage! 😆
My decades old Fluke uses a 9v. In 20-30 years, I've replaced it twice. (that I can recall) I also have a few museum quality _analog_ meters that have no batteries at all, or a single AA. (they have to have power to measure resistance, etc.)
Indeed! I would think Fluke wouldn’t go using something that didn't work well, but be careful, lest You offend the pen lite battery fan boys! 😆 AA’ and AA’s have their place, but I prefer a Fluke with a 9 Volt battery. Lees chance of leakage, and the argument on availability and price; Are You kidding me? Try looking on the Internet! And once You start adding BT and all this other junk, You really aren’t talking a practical dependable Multi meter, are we? Appreciate Your comment!
I have two multimeters which use 9V pp3 batteries, and it is quite a chore to take them out for charging (I am using NiMHs). So I fitted a charging socket and charging indicator lamp (3mm LED) to each meter, and I have found this to be very satisfactory. The meters can still be used while on charge.
Be aware that by doing this you likely seriously compromised the safety of the meter. Not an issue if you only ever use it for ELV work but a big problem if you ever use it for mains work.
I would really like if there were some sort of standard for lithium rechargeable batteries. All modern cellphones have their own format, it would be really nice to get off-the-shelf batteries for a wide range of phones and even devices like multimeters...
When my 9v batt was dead and I needed to use my meter, I used two 18650 in series and plugged to the contacts of my meter and it worked fine (even at 7V).
Somewhat related: I've seen a few cases where a multi-battery solution was used not due to size or lifespan, but for (physical) rail-separation. EG: an electronic sudoku-toy my parents used to have: used 2 batteries for the logic and another one solely for the LCD-Backlight
its lazy enginneering and less parts costs for voltage lines, not an improvement, my cheap chinese clock uses 4xaaa, and taps off at a couple of points to steal different voltages
The tricky bit is you can't use a regular wall-wart directly because the insulation on it's output cable is not adequately rated. So you either need an isolated DC-DC or a custom mains power supply.
I hacked in a standard barrel plug connector from an old ADSL router (fits 9-12 volt DC adapters) to one of those cheap yellow chinese multimeters. Nice thing about the barrel connector is that it has a builtin switch which is triggered when you plug it in. It worked fine, except there was some jitter in the measured value, most notably when measuring zero it would flash the minus sign. A small SMD ceramic cap from a dead fluorescent light bulb took care of that. Drilled a hole on the side of the case of the appropriate size near the LCD screen. I do not use it for mains stuff powered that way, of course. Just checking batteries, resistances and such. Earlier than that I did something even more crude: Two cables soldered directly to the battery contacts. A non-rechargeable battery will, in fact take something of a charge, so by feeding the other end of the cables >9 volts for a few seconds I get a few minutes of use before the low battery warning and inaccurate measurements.
Juan Herrero be VERY careful with this, as if you happen to use the meter on something with high voltage in it (say you are repairing a photo flash, which has a 400V capacitor) and you touch the barrel plug (negative or positive doesn't matter), you WILL certainly know you did by screaming in pain *because you WILL get a shock, given the battery in multimeters is NOT isolated* from the probes!
If you mix batteries in different states of charge you may end up with the weakest one being subjected to reverse polarity and leaking. (And you are not covered by any battery leakage guarantee if you do that.) Maybe not too likely with a 5mA draw but definitely an issue on higher drain items.
AA batteries are easier to find, much cheaper, and have a higher energy density than 9V or AAA batteries. The only choice in non-rechargeable batteries.
TEM's could be deployed publicly, at least there's no technical reason why they can't. But well any old joe can turn that kind of Plutonium into a bomb, that's why we don't have them. It's not a technology limitation.
Dave, could you please do a video showing us the whole process of creating this new multimeter, from beginning to end? The goal is to show what went wrong, what delayed the product "why took it so long", like a timeline, and etc... This way, we the viewers who aspire to create stuff can have a more practical view on product development and manufacturing, by seeing your case as a "case study"... Thanks in advance!
EEVblog2 would it be available afterwards for the rest? I am particularly very curious on the time frames and the whole "trap for young players: from idea to shipment".
My late 1970's UEI M110 analog meter uses 2 double A's and a 15 volt camera battery. That meter was made in Japan. Newer Korean made M110's use a 9 volt and 2 double A's.
Zylon FPV There are a fair number of smoke detectors which use AA batteries in certain segments, the 9V batteries are most common as backup power sources in the hardwired AC powered smoke detectors as they do not ordinarily need a lot of sustained power since they spend most of their time mains powered. But in the non-hardwired and wireless model smoke detectors as well as CO, explosive gas, and heat detectors (an option to smoke detection in environments that do not lend themselves to typical smoke detectors, like garages, attics, or crawl spaces) you will encounter greater use of AA batteries due to their much greater capacity versus 9V batteries.
Do rechargable AA/AAAs have more capacity than the same size alkaline ones. Good quality AA NiMH are usually 2000mAh, AAA are usually 850mAh. Why dont Alkalines ever have the mAh printed on them.
they vary according to load, at low load such as clocks, they have maybe over 3000mah , at high loads, nimh give their stated capacity and alkalines lose half of theirs
Still very valuable consumer information. Most products are required to state their 'quantity' on the packaging. Why did battery manufacturers get a waiver?
It would not be valuable, it would just be confusing. Alkalines have a much higher ESR than NiMh and Li-Ion so it doesn't make sense to use a mAh figure.
If you use AA batteries for capacity and not "getting into shelf life territory" i would rethink using them. A NiMH cell costs like 4-5 times more than a alkaline and lasts more than 10 years. So if you drain a Alkaline battery in less than 2 years or maybe one it was wasted money in fact. Multimeters run years and years on alkalines, would be interesting to compare the aging/self discharge with the real energy use over this period of time :D
Too right. I've lost count of the number of my devices that have been damaged by leaking duracells. I even had a duracell AA leak in a kitchen clock!!! I'm back to Energizers now - I've never had one of those leak. The fact that you can bulk buy Energizer Industrial cheaply sweetens the deal for me :-)
You guys aren't making it up saying that Duracell leak! A family member gave me 2 huge gallon size bags of alkalines to bring to work and recycle, they were mostly a mix between Duracell and Energizer. A real high volume of the duracells were leaking, some of them were so freshly leaking from jostling the bag around that you could hear little bubbles coming from some cells. I was so intrigued at the mess that I dug through the cells and only a couple energizers were leaking, they were from the oldest bag so they were dead for a while. The only difference between the old and newer bags of duracells was that the electrolyte dried up... More hadn't leaked with a few months age. As a mainly rechargeable user this surprised me, I'd expect it if they were sitting for years, not 4 months max.
Finally, someone saying this! AA has DOUBLE the energy of AAA for the same price and much more than 9V batteries. The 9V are about 2x the price of 2 AA batteries also.
There are 2S Li-ion battery packs in 9V format. Voltage is high enought for practically any device using this format and 550-600mAh capacity at 7.4V nominal (4.3Wh - roughly 2x of AA Alkaline at 200mA load - 2.2Wh)
So the voltage regulator doesn't behave like a transformer where the input current is different than the output current? That seems odd because that's the only way power stays the same through the converter.
i had a multimeter that ran from a single triple A it lasted months from a 1100mAh NIMH battery with constant use!! Battery was 0.8v when it finally died! Crazy long lasting life!!!
it was a mechanical meter i guess, the battery was only used when you did resistance mode, other modes are powered by the load, thus you can live with no battery in it some times
Yes the bigger the better !! I am more than HAPPY to have a slightly bigger case in my BIG hands, Easier to handle, with larger push buttons where appropriate for the larger fingers, I Dislike the cell phones that have such small push buttons that when you try and push just one button you push two or three at the same time !!! Just NOT HANDY AT ALL !! Good video Dave, as always.
I am used to collect "empty" alcaline cells and recharge them. Works very good. I only had a problem with one brand: Duracell. I was unable to charge them up again. Looks like they added some kind of diode or fet in series. So that is what you pay for: Preventing the user to extend the lifetime by the factor of 10 upwards...
tohopes yes, that is also the question that I am thinking of. I am sure Dave will have checked this option and surely has a good reason not doing it. Maybe he will explain ?
tohopes Possible reasons: * Might introduce noise/error? * Long term life is poor. * Dave previously bought a Samsung Galaxy Note 7 😛 I'd like to know too. To me, it seems odd to not have a rechargeable device in this age. But maybe there's a technical reason not to.
Because AA cells are available literally everywhere, even places without an electrical grid. Also it takes 3 minutes to swap in a new set of cells as opposed to 3-4 hours to charge a LiPo or Lion cell.
Abe Lincoln That depends on the implementation, there's certainly no reason it couldn't contain user replaceable lithium cells just like AAs, also just imagine you're data logging and notice oh crap I forgot to replace the low batteries in there, well no worries with rechargeables, I'll just plug in the charger or a power bank so it'll keep going, seems better and makes more sense to me than having to stop, find batteries and replace them...
Agreed, I can see how a rechargeable unit would be advantageous in a lab situation, however I would think twice about charging a unit while it was taking measurements. If I have lots of electrical outlets to charge the thing I'd likely be using a bench meter anyhow. To my conception hand held units are for field service, hence my preference for lithium 9v.
AA vs AAA (vs 9V) is one reason I just ordered one. I _loathe_ devices that use AAA's. Yes please let me pay 2x $ of 1/2 mAh capacity (or worse). I bought some PlanetBike headlights that use 2xAA's to power a crazy bright white LED - awesome! (made me cry when I saw their red tail light only available in a AAA version. They _could_ have run it on a single AA). Almost no device on the market needs the space savings of a AAA, especially w/ efficient buck convertors. A single AA is better than 2 x AAA.
Duracell are no longer 'good quality' cells, here in the UK. Their cells are the only major brand of cells that leak when they go flat. I've lost count of the pieces of kit that I've seen which have been damaged by Duracell cells/batteries leaking. I've also bought several genuine Duracell multi-packs (with long date codes) which have contained several dead or low capacity cells, and which will be guaranteed to leak within a short time of being put into equipment.
BigClive did a test of various brand AA's. Duracell were the worst. Interesting how the Ultra Power graph is the same as their standard version. It seems they established themselves as the leading brand in the 1980s and knew that the consumer would never bother comparing discharge curves. The brand identity is very strong.
18650 is a 'now' battery, even tesla dont use an 18650, they use their own size they reckon is better for overall power density in the thousands they use in a car, better to stick with aa
Jusb1066 What on earth are you talking about, 18650s are the most common form factor for lithium-ion batteries. There exist many other less common form factors like 26650s or whatever format Tesla is deciding to use now, although they used to use 18650s, regardless, why does Tesla have any bearing on what battery is suitable for a multimeter of all things? Also: wtf is a 'now' battery?
But its linear, its pissing half of the power when the battery is full. Is the filtered output of buck converter too noisy for the low measurement ranges?
So if I've understood this correctly: the 9V battery is worse for battery life because you're using linear regulators, which piss away power to drop the voltage. Because of the linear regulators, it's more efficient to have less voltage 'overhead'. Question: would it be more advantageous to use a 9V battery if you'd used switch mode regulators in stead of linear regulators? I know it theoretically might, but I wonder if it would practically be possible. And also: would it be feasible to use switch mode regulators in a precision application such as a multimeter.
Devices that have no reason to slim down or could easily fit AAs but which use AAA instead for no discernible reason is a pet peeve of mine. It’s like the engineers never looked at the mAH costs.
I'm shocked! I've been using 14500s like these (sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/theshorelinemarket/xeno-xl-060f.pdf) for at least a decade, and had no clue there was a lower-voltage lithium version! I've certainly seen the Energizers on the shelf, but never picked them up to check their details because of their cost.
I would be interested to see the battery life on a set of freshly charged LSD NiMH batteries (like Eneloops or ReCyckos). You may want to revise your power system to allow for a cut-off voltage of 0.8V or so (a buck-boost converter at the battery input to get the 4.2V, then LDO down) so rechargeables work properly.
Please test AA and AAA USB-C rechargeble bateries, they have micro buck converter insido to lower 4v to 1.5v, let us see ripple etc.... How much discharge current they support etc...
I see now. Calibrating a flux capacitor is a lengthy process, and it also requires a fair amount of power. It makes sense that battery life would be a priority.
9V blocks may be a relict from ancient times when "LDO"s still required a voltage drop of >1V to get a stable voltage out even with load transients. But that time is gone. You get cheap LDOs with ground currents
Fluke 287 multimeter uses 8 (in words: eight) AA-batteries - that's a pain in the neck if those run out of power. I switched to NiMh-batteries because recharging within 2 hrs is much faster than finding new batteries and properly dispose the old ones. Here I would really like to have 2 LiPo-batteries in series that should be rechargeable via a µUSB-connector - the multimeter costs almost 600€, so that's definitely not the cost-driver.
I guess because of noise when measuring small (mV, mA/µA) signals: The inputs are located at the battery position so any noise caused by the converter will induce noise to the signals and/or first stage of signal processing.If you want to get rid of that problem you would have to place the battery/power managment below the display to increase the distance to the signal processing as much as possible.Moreover, you would have to use the PWM-mode rather than the power-saving burst-mode to eliminate problems with the low-frequency noise caused by the current bursts.I would prefer to have 2 LiPo-batteries in series with USB-recharging - that would be a serious quality increase.
Still, "professional" gear in different fields seems to use 9 V while a large part of consumer stuff uses AA. And as an exception confirming the rule, I've got a neatly engineered AOR handheld scanner that takes 4 AA cells without sacrificing any external dimensions. The only downside is that Ikealoops won't fit.
AA batteries have more capacity than the 9V although there are some multimeters ( agilent ) that uses 9V batteries and doesn't drain too much energy when using its basic functions. Off course logging operations will deplet more.. 9V batteries can provide better output voltage for analog internal circuits on the multimeter but that can be achieved with with switching power supplies. The clamp meter UT204A drains 10mA on DC A from the poor 9V battery and was allso my poor choice on a clamp meter for Solar panels, car and electrical board current measuring
Why not an 18650? A panasonic cell provides 11 watt hours. There is a prebuilt circuit for 18650s. It takes a usb input, provides a cc-cv charge, over discharge protection. Over current/short circuit protection. I would certainly prefer a usb rechargeable meter over 9 volts/AA battery's.
Good answer. Too bad I just bought your BM235. Didn't know the 121GW was coming. Oh well, can't have too many meters ... can you? Maybe the next one will have a rechargeable LiPo with a USB connector for charging and data transfer.
Yeah my least favorite part of my Fluke 177 is the poor battery life of the 9v, and its not even doing any of the fancy processing this one is. I finally bit the bullet last time, bought a Energizer Lithium at twice the price. Seems to be hanging in there pretty good so far. Dont know if its worth the extra cost though.
Of course the current going in has to be greater due to I-squared-R losses, but who cares about that... as long as it doesn't burst into flame. :) Also most meters these days have an auto-off feature so you don't run down the batteries. So what's the quiescent current draw after it shuts off?
with a buck convertor on the 9V battery, surely you can do better than 150hrs? you'll draw less than 5mA, but still probably worse than the AAs due to the high internal resistance, 9V are awesome if you draw uAs
Well, with the transmit power being at least a couple W, you'd need that to get good battery life. To be honest, for that kind of application, the best kind of battery would be a 13AH Ni-MH rechargable F size cell. Harder to find, yes, but great capacity.
Your have an engineer's mind to the cell lol, it's one day I will treat myself to this great product you have crafted. When ever it is released to us public's
I wish cell phone makers would learn from this, I would be happy if they would make a phone that's slightly thicker to gain hours of battery life. but no, everyone wants to make everything as thin as possible...
mattg889 that’s what I have been saying all along. Make the battery bigger for more capacity.
Did your wife tell you that? LOL
@@ihatesmartphones YES YES YES. And stop this nonsense of building the battery in so that you can't replace it without returning the whole phone to the manufacturer.
@@BrianG61UK A removable battery of course is also useful for a good ol' hard reset, which I've needed to do more than once. Bad apps can temporarily brick a phone to where the power button doesn't even work, but popping the battery does!
My early Nokias came with the battery as a clip-on pack on the back. They only gave you a couple of weeks battery life. But you could get high-capacity backs that were thicker, and they would go for a month or two.
Mixing cell types and dead cells with new?
Living life on the edge, there, Dave! ;)
If you aren't living life on the edge you are taking up too much room
And mixing it up with rechargables... life is fun.
Very apt considering pretty much everyone in Australia lives one the edge (of Australia).
Barry Allard well, it's not all that rubbish. It could, theoretically, make a heck of a boom.
Mixed brand too... dave needs an exorcism
Also, in my experience, 9V batteries are also harder to find these days, my impression is that the market seems to be focusing on AA and to a lesser degree on AAA for non-rechargeable devices.... You can still generally find AA and AAA in random corner stores but not so much other types.
Interesting to hear how you came to the choice to use AA batteries.
I wish more meters used AAs. Modern meter chips can work on 2.5V or less, which makes 9V batteries quite wasteful. Replace LDOs with micro-power switching regulators and you can get another 30-40% extra battery life from a 4xAA pack.
is it not the best choice you can think of? the worlds most common battery cell
The energy density difference between 9V and AA makes it a no brainer in my opinon. Didn't even need to look at a single graph to know that :)
Not just the most common, also the cheapest per watt-hour among primary cells. 2.5-3X the capacity for slightly more money and bulk than comparable quality AAA.
And you get 8 AA batteries for the same price as one 9V battery. At least over here.
Imagine for a minute, that there was a device that could boost the battery voltage to 1.05V... You'd get another hundred hours... Something small enough to clip onto the battery before you install it into the compartment... Wonder if anyone could ever find something like that...
HA!
Anyway, 9V batteries are like R50 each; 4 AA batteries are R25. So not only are you getting 4 times the life, you're getting it for half the cost. AA is the standard these days - that's what's most sold and therefore most developed - choosing ANY other battery (except for maybe an 18650) is pissing into the wind.
Umm... You mean like a transistor?
Nah, I'm just fucking with Dave. I meant his nemesis: The Batteriser.
1.05V?
South African?
Already done, search for energy harvesting devices.
I have actually been putting off getting a logging multimeter for awhile to get my self one of these
Cant wait to get my hands on one while supporting your channel!
Also all the others use Bluetooth and long term logging over Bluetooth is just an unnecessary pain
Bluetooth hasn't proven to be 100% reliable in development, and apparently that's normal...
EEVblog Which is a bit sad when one realizes that Bluetooth has now been around for nearly 20 years, though it does not help that it is yet another technology crammed into a very crowded 2.4GHz ISM band with so many sources of interference that can momentarily jam it. My first PDA, a Compaq iPaq Pocket PC running Windows CE, included Bluetooth back in 1999-2000, which was actually pretty reliable back then, but then there was not much in the way of WiFi and other 2.4GHz devices at that point and Bluetooth was literally its wireless network connection at up to whopping 1Mbps.
9:19 - *May* contain 6 x AAAA batteries. Not all do. Some use rectangular cells.
I guess Dave has early onset Alzheimer's.
th-cam.com/video/c9JGfoLxVCo/w-d-xo.html
The cheap ones almost never use individual encapsulated AAAA cells - just a simple stack of rectangular wax-coated cells with a piece of cardboard between them.
Alkaline batteries will probably use cylindrical cells, to contain the electrolyte, whereas carbon-based ones will usually contain cheap rectangular cells.
They aren't Alkaline.
Wikipedia shows a picture with both zinc-carbon and alkaline rectangular cells inside 9V batteries.
i haven't seen any other mfg make videos on why they made the decisions they did... thank you, Dave.
PS definitely want one of these now that i know you have the best interests and design of your product in mind
The big bonus is the battery cost for AA is the best, AAA cost about double AA with half the life. I hate electronics that use AAA batteries for that reason, half the life for double the cost.
Where abouts do you live? In Australia alkaline AA and AAAs are the same price, and for Lithium primaries AAAs are usually slightly cheaper.
@@1ohtaf1 same here AAA and AA are the same price, tho AA has almost three times the capacity. but i dont mind AAA batteries, if device doesnt draw much its okay, but in this case his battery choice is good, especially they made it in the way it discharges untill 1,05v, which is excellent if you want to use rechargable batteries
Love the channel! Can't wait to buy a 121gw to support the channel!
I am using AA NiMH accumulators everywhere, so 4 x AA was a very good choice. I really like it. And 9V batteries are quite expensive if you need to replace them often and the 9V accumulators don't worky very well.
this meter is literarly perfect for use with nimh, 1,05v cutoff and good capacity with even number of cells (important for some chargers)
Personally I don't mind the double A's. Always have decent ones lying around.
Interesting to see the logic behind it. Data sheets are great if you put in the effort to get a well thought of design.
Can't wait for the release of the meter ^^
I am sick and tired of finding devices that are big enough for AA but require AAA instead. Someone should slap those engineers in the face. What planet do they live on?!
welll... im quite a fan of AAA, for remote controlls for example they use so little and i really like them not being heavy. triple A lasts about two years or more in my tv remote anyways
Could always use with a batteriser ?
Maybe a U-beam power source too ? Lol ;)
when you reach a certain level of thickness(which you had),going thicker doesn't matter as long as the harnases are good enough
My Hioki 3231 has 2 AA batteries. It's about 25 years old (and still works). If anyone cares :)
Good think piece! I also really like the Saturn VI rocket model in the background. I worked for Boeing, and one of the Washington State sites had a 7 foot tall model of it in the lobby of one of the buildings. That was cool as well. I so wanted to take off the third stage! 😆
My decades old Fluke uses a 9v. In 20-30 years, I've replaced it twice. (that I can recall) I also have a few museum quality _analog_ meters that have no batteries at all, or a single AA. (they have to have power to measure resistance, etc.)
Indeed! I would think Fluke wouldn’t go using something that didn't work well, but be careful, lest You offend the pen lite battery fan boys! 😆 AA’ and AA’s have their place, but I prefer a Fluke with a 9 Volt battery. Lees chance of leakage, and the argument on availability and price; Are You kidding me? Try looking on the Internet! And once You start adding BT and all this other junk, You really aren’t talking a practical dependable Multi meter, are we?
Appreciate Your comment!
I have two multimeters which use 9V pp3 batteries, and it is quite a chore to take them out for charging (I am using NiMHs). So I fitted a charging socket and charging indicator lamp (3mm LED) to each meter, and I have found this to be very satisfactory. The meters can still be used while on charge.
yep, like radios once used pp9s which are the giant version of sucky and expensive, i had a radio that needed 2 of them, it sucked
Be aware that by doing this you likely seriously compromised the safety of the meter. Not an issue if you only ever use it for ELV work but a big problem if you ever use it for mains work.
I wish cell phone makers would stop being stupid trying to make things to thin to hold, let alone actually hold a decent battery
I would really like if there were some sort of standard for lithium rechargeable batteries. All modern cellphones have their own format, it would be really nice to get off-the-shelf batteries for a wide range of phones and even devices like multimeters...
check out jesy j7, 4100 mah, radio walkie talk, infrared controller and a badass unbreakable case, all running android 6.0
Philips Xenium phones were cool, with 60 days standby.
you forget that a lot of smartphones have removable batteries and have had for a long time
Slot1Gamer That is something very quickly going away in the name of "water resistance"
When my 9v batt was dead and I needed to use my meter, I used two 18650 in series and plugged to the contacts of my meter and it worked fine (even at 7V).
ArthurMagno haha i used 2 nokia batteries in series and put 2x tp4056 on each battery and i charge them 1 by 1 and not similtaniously works great 😂
Somewhat related:
I've seen a few cases where a multi-battery solution was used not due to size or lifespan, but for (physical) rail-separation.
EG: an electronic sudoku-toy my parents used to have: used 2 batteries for the logic and another one solely for the LCD-Backlight
its lazy enginneering and less parts costs for voltage lines, not an improvement, my cheap chinese clock uses 4xaaa, and taps off at a couple of points to steal different voltages
Never said it was 'better', just that it exists.
How about an optional back cover that allows powering from an AC power source?
Better buy some NiMH accumulators unless you really need hundreds hours of uninterrupted work.
The tricky bit is you can't use a regular wall-wart directly because the insulation on it's output cable is not adequately rated. So you either need an isolated DC-DC or a custom mains power supply.
I hacked in a standard barrel plug connector from an old ADSL router (fits 9-12 volt DC adapters) to one of those cheap yellow chinese multimeters. Nice thing about the barrel connector is that it has a builtin switch which is triggered when you plug it in. It worked fine, except there was some jitter in the measured value, most notably when measuring zero it would flash the minus sign. A small SMD ceramic cap from a dead fluorescent light bulb took care of that. Drilled a hole on the side of the case of the appropriate size near the LCD screen.
I do not use it for mains stuff powered that way, of course. Just checking batteries, resistances and such.
Earlier than that I did something even more crude: Two cables soldered directly to the battery contacts. A non-rechargeable battery will, in fact take something of a charge, so by feeding the other end of the cables >9 volts for a few seconds I get a few minutes of use before the low battery warning and inaccurate measurements.
Juan Herrero be VERY careful with this, as if you happen to use the meter on something with high voltage in it (say you are repairing a photo flash, which has a 400V capacitor) and you touch the barrel plug (negative or positive doesn't matter), you WILL certainly know you did by screaming in pain *because you WILL get a shock, given the battery in multimeters is NOT isolated* from the probes!
If you mix batteries in different states of charge you may end up with the weakest one being subjected to reverse polarity and leaking. (And you are not covered by any battery leakage guarantee if you do that.) Maybe not too likely with a 5mA draw but definitely an issue on higher drain items.
AA batteries are easier to find, much cheaper, and have a higher energy density than 9V or AAA batteries. The only choice in non-rechargeable batteries.
looks and sounds like a great meter.. Kudos
Never mind batteries, why doesn't it run on Plutonium? :P
It would be harmful for the battery lobby. They want us to run everything on batteries **Tin foil hat on**
I was thinking more along the lines of this:
th-cam.com/video/f-77xulkB_U/w-d-xo.html
:P
twocvbloke because there is an option to power it with a mr. Fusion
Increases shipping costs
TEM's could be deployed publicly, at least there's no technical reason why they can't. But well any old joe can turn that kind of Plutonium into a bomb, that's why we don't have them. It's not a technology limitation.
Plus you can always throw a batteriser on your AA's :D
Dave, could you please do a video showing us the whole process of creating this new multimeter, from beginning to end? The goal is to show what went wrong, what delayed the product "why took it so long", like a timeline, and etc... This way, we the viewers who aspire to create stuff can have a more practical view on product development and manufacturing, by seeing your case as a "case study"... Thanks in advance!
I was going to offer a behind the scenes video for backers of the project.
EEVblog2 would it be available afterwards for the rest? I am particularly very curious on the time frames and the whole "trap for young players: from idea to shipment".
As far as I can see, the product seems to be ready for quite some time, so I am just wondering what's missing... Tests? Manufacturing? Certifications?
My late 1970's UEI M110 analog meter uses 2 double A's and a 15 volt camera battery. That meter was made in Japan. Newer Korean made M110's use a 9 volt and 2 double A's.
Very interesting, and an excellent choice and explanation :)
This does make me wonder though, why do smoke detectors use 9v batteries instead of AA?
Ease of high voltage, no issues with people mixing and matching batteries, and very low currenct draw. It's the right choice.
EEVblog that makes sense. I suppose in a device designed for safety it guarantees matched cells.
Zylon FPV There are a fair number of smoke detectors which use AA batteries in certain segments, the 9V batteries are most common as backup power sources in the hardwired AC powered smoke detectors as they do not ordinarily need a lot of sustained power since they spend most of their time mains powered. But in the non-hardwired and wireless model smoke detectors as well as CO, explosive gas, and heat detectors (an option to smoke detection in environments that do not lend themselves to typical smoke detectors, like garages, attics, or crawl spaces) you will encounter greater use of AA batteries due to their much greater capacity versus 9V batteries.
Either there's more fog in Australia than I've been led to believe, or you need to clean the lens there Dave. Great video as always.
Do rechargable AA/AAAs have more capacity than the same size alkaline ones. Good quality AA NiMH are usually 2000mAh, AAA are usually 850mAh. Why dont Alkalines ever have the mAh printed on them.
they vary according to load, at low load such as clocks, they have maybe over 3000mah , at high loads, nimh give their stated capacity and alkalines lose half of theirs
Still very valuable consumer information. Most products are required to state
their 'quantity' on the packaging. Why did battery manufacturers get a waiver?
It would not be valuable, it would just be confusing. Alkalines have a much higher ESR than NiMh and Li-Ion so it doesn't make sense to use a mAh figure.
If you use AA batteries for capacity and not "getting into shelf life territory" i would rethink using them. A NiMH cell costs like 4-5 times more than a alkaline and lasts more than 10 years. So if you drain a Alkaline battery in less than 2 years or maybe one it was wasted money in fact. Multimeters run years and years on alkalines, would be interesting to compare the aging/self discharge with the real energy use over this period of time :D
Why Use Duracell ... this is the question :).
Because Duracell have easy to find datasheets for all their batteries.
Will it blend? that is the question ;-)
Too right. I've lost count of the number of my devices that have been damaged by leaking duracells. I even had a duracell AA leak in a kitchen clock!!!
I'm back to Energizers now - I've never had one of those leak. The fact that you can bulk buy Energizer Industrial cheaply sweetens the deal for me :-)
I had some CHINA batteries last longer then duracell ultra and energizer etc..
You guys aren't making it up saying that Duracell leak! A family member gave me 2 huge gallon size bags of alkalines to bring to work and recycle, they were mostly a mix between Duracell and Energizer. A real high volume of the duracells were leaking, some of them were so freshly leaking from jostling the bag around that you could hear little bubbles coming from some cells. I was so intrigued at the mess that I dug through the cells and only a couple energizers were leaking, they were from the oldest bag so they were dead for a while. The only difference between the old and newer bags of duracells was that the electrolyte dried up... More hadn't leaked with a few months age. As a mainly rechargeable user this surprised me, I'd expect it if they were sitting for years, not 4 months max.
Finally, someone saying this! AA has DOUBLE the energy of AAA for the same price and much more than 9V batteries. The 9V are about 2x the price of 2 AA batteries also.
There are 2S Li-ion battery packs in 9V format. Voltage is high enought for practically any device using this format and 550-600mAh capacity at 7.4V nominal (4.3Wh - roughly 2x of AA Alkaline at 200mA load - 2.2Wh)
So the voltage regulator doesn't behave like a transformer where the input current is different than the output current? That seems odd because that's the only way power stays the same through the converter.
Is the name 121GW a reference to Back to the Future's 1.21 GigaWatts? :D
i had a multimeter that ran from a single triple A
it lasted months from a 1100mAh NIMH battery with constant use!!
Battery was 0.8v when it finally died!
Crazy long lasting life!!!
it was a mechanical meter i guess, the battery was only used when you did resistance mode, other modes are powered by the load, thus you can live with no battery in it some times
Interesting to see the huge difference in impedance, as well as capacity. No doubt the AA cell is a more energetic package!
What happened to A batteries? I think I last saw them in 1971. Surely it would be practical to have a size between the AA and the C.
Yes the bigger the better !! I am more than HAPPY to have a slightly bigger case in my BIG hands, Easier to handle, with larger push buttons where appropriate for the larger fingers, I Dislike the cell phones that have such small push buttons that when you try and push just one button you push two or three at the same time !!! Just NOT HANDY AT ALL !! Good video Dave, as always.
Hmmm... Doesn't seem to be any audio on this video any more...
great video as normal Dave
I am used to collect "empty" alcaline cells and recharge them. Works very good. I only had a problem with one brand: Duracell. I was unable to charge them up again. Looks like they added some kind of diode or fet in series. So that is what you pay for: Preventing the user to extend the lifetime by the factor of 10 upwards...
Sounds like a great meter, don't take too long to release to anyone with money :D Have you worked out distribution in the AU, US, UK...
Okay but why not lithium-ion batteries?
tohopes yes, that is also the question that I am thinking of. I am sure Dave will have checked this option and surely has a good reason not doing it. Maybe he will explain ?
tohopes
Possible reasons:
* Might introduce noise/error?
* Long term life is poor.
* Dave previously bought a Samsung Galaxy Note 7 😛
I'd like to know too. To me, it seems odd to not have a rechargeable device in this age. But maybe there's a technical reason not to.
Because AA cells are available literally everywhere, even places without an electrical grid. Also it takes 3 minutes to swap in a new set of cells as opposed to 3-4 hours to charge a LiPo or Lion cell.
Abe Lincoln That depends on the implementation, there's certainly no reason it couldn't contain user replaceable lithium cells just like AAs, also just imagine you're data logging and notice oh crap I forgot to replace the low batteries in there, well no worries with rechargeables, I'll just plug in the charger or a power bank so it'll keep going, seems better and makes more sense to me than having to stop, find batteries and replace them...
Agreed, I can see how a rechargeable unit would be advantageous in a lab situation, however I would think twice about charging a unit while it was taking measurements. If I have lots of electrical outlets to charge the thing I'd likely be using a bench meter anyhow.
To my conception hand held units are for field service, hence my preference for lithium 9v.
AA vs AAA (vs 9V) is one reason I just ordered one.
I _loathe_ devices that use AAA's. Yes please let me pay 2x $ of 1/2 mAh capacity (or worse).
I bought some PlanetBike headlights that use 2xAA's to power a crazy bright white LED - awesome! (made me cry when I saw their red tail light only available in a AAA version. They _could_ have run it on a single AA).
Almost no device on the market needs the space savings of a AAA, especially w/ efficient buck convertors. A single AA is better than 2 x AAA.
Duracell are no longer 'good quality' cells, here in the UK. Their cells are the only major brand of cells that leak when they go flat. I've lost count of the pieces of kit that I've seen which have been damaged by Duracell cells/batteries leaking. I've also bought several genuine Duracell multi-packs (with long date codes) which have contained several dead or low capacity cells, and which will be guaranteed to leak within a short time of being put into equipment.
BigClive did a test of various brand AA's. Duracell were the worst. Interesting how the Ultra Power graph is the same as their standard version. It seems they established themselves as the leading brand in the 1980s and knew that the consumer would never bother comparing discharge curves. The brand identity is very strong.
yep I agree I live in America and won't buy them either
did you ever look at using the same battery pack that run the higher end cell phones/tablets?
I would have wanted to suggest a single 18650, but became a sponsor after that discussion had finished. I plan to use low-leakage NiMH in mine.
18650 is a 'now' battery, even tesla dont use an 18650, they use their own size they reckon is better for overall power density in the thousands they use in a car, better to stick with aa
Jusb1066 What on earth are you talking about, 18650s are the most common form factor for lithium-ion batteries. There exist many other less common form factors like 26650s or whatever format Tesla is deciding to use now, although they used to use 18650s, regardless, why does Tesla have any bearing on what battery is suitable for a multimeter of all things? Also: wtf is a 'now' battery?
But its linear, its pissing half of the power when the battery is full. Is the filtered output of buck converter too noisy for the low measurement ranges?
So if I've understood this correctly: the 9V battery is worse for battery life because you're using linear regulators, which piss away power to drop the voltage. Because of the linear regulators, it's more efficient to have less voltage 'overhead'.
Question: would it be more advantageous to use a 9V battery if you'd used switch mode regulators in stead of linear regulators? I know it theoretically might, but I wonder if it would practically be possible. And also: would it be feasible to use switch mode regulators in a precision application such as a multimeter.
No, it's not about linear regulators, it's about the terrible capacity of a 9V battery compared to AA's at the 5mA constant current being used.
Did you make new injection moulds??? fancy!
Fluke doesn't make loggin meters? I have a 88v. I rarely use but I like. Can't log though
Seeing as this is a couple years old, are these publicly available now?
Is my understanding of this correct? 9Volt batteries are internally just six quad-A sized batteries in series?
By definition: a 6LR61(9V) battery consists of 6 (!) LR61(AAAA) batteries. 😛
Isn't there more losses with a linear voltage regulator with a higher input voltage since more energy needs to be dissipated as heat?
Devices that have no reason to slim down or could easily fit AAs but which use AAA instead for no discernible reason is a pet peeve of mine. It’s like the engineers never looked at the mAH costs.
welp, time to become a patron i guess
Test the battery life with lithium AA cells. Would they be worth investing in for this use?
You'd need only 2 to get about the same voltage as 4 alkalines.
Err, no, he means 1.5V Lithium AA's
All the ones I've seen are ~3.6V.
Can you point out an example of a 1.5V Lithium cell?
Energizer Ultimate Lithium Batteries data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf (spoiler: single use, not li-ion)
I'm shocked! I've been using 14500s like these (sep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/theshorelinemarket/xeno-xl-060f.pdf) for at least a decade, and had no clue there was a lower-voltage lithium version! I've certainly seen the Energizers on the shelf, but never picked them up to check their details because of their cost.
Hmm..
Why is the operating temperature -20c while storage only +5c?
Of the batteries that is.
Why not lipo? Also, any reason not to include a wall-wort continuous power option?
I would be interested to see the battery life on a set of freshly charged LSD NiMH batteries (like Eneloops or ReCyckos). You may want to revise your power system to allow for a cut-off voltage of 0.8V or so (a buck-boost converter at the battery input to get the 4.2V, then LDO down) so rechargeables work properly.
1.0-1.1V per cell is acceptable cutoff voltage for LSD Ni-Mh. It has barely 5% capacity below 1.1V per cell and barely 1% below 1.0V per cell.
When is this meter going to be available?
Please test AA and AAA USB-C rechargeble bateries, they have micro buck converter insido to lower 4v to 1.5v, let us see ripple etc....
How much discharge current they support etc...
I see now. Calibrating a flux capacitor is a lengthy process, and it also requires a fair amount of power. It makes sense that battery life would be a priority.
Interesting stuff, Thank You!
What runtime would you get with the Batterizer? Like 2400 hours. Greats stuff!
I want to poke around in a receiver I found, am I safe to do so with an AN8008? don't worry I'll get one of yours one day
9V blocks may be a relict from ancient times when "LDO"s still required a voltage drop of >1V to get a stable voltage out even with load transients. But that time is gone. You get cheap LDOs with ground currents
How much run time does the 121GW get with batterizers?
Fluke 287 multimeter uses 8 (in words: eight) AA-batteries - that's a pain in the neck if those run out of power. I switched to NiMh-batteries because recharging within 2 hrs is much faster than finding new batteries and properly dispose the old ones. Here I would really like to have 2 LiPo-batteries in series that should be rechargeable via a µUSB-connector - the multimeter costs almost 600€, so that's definitely not the cost-driver.
QQ. why is no manufacturer using a DC-DC from 3v to 9v in their designs?
I guess because of noise when measuring small (mV, mA/µA) signals: The inputs are located at the battery position so any noise caused by the converter will induce noise to the signals and/or first stage of signal processing.If you want to get rid of that problem you would have to place the battery/power managment below the display to increase the distance to the signal processing as much as possible.Moreover, you would have to use the PWM-mode rather than the power-saving burst-mode to eliminate problems with the low-frequency noise caused by the current bursts.I would prefer to have 2 LiPo-batteries in series with USB-recharging - that would be a serious quality increase.
Post before watching: reason: because 9v is the worst battery type ever.
Still, "professional" gear in different fields seems to use 9 V while a large part of consumer stuff uses AA.
And as an exception confirming the rule, I've got a neatly engineered AOR handheld scanner that takes 4 AA cells without sacrificing any external dimensions. The only downside is that Ikealoops won't fit.
Did anyone else notice the 1.7 Ohm series resistance at 1kHz for that 9V battery? That's poor.
RWBHere I think it says 1.700 m-ohm which should be mili but I might be wrong?
Mono editon? Can run for half a year.Also use as a self defense weapon
AA batteries have more capacity than the 9V although there are some multimeters ( agilent ) that uses 9V batteries and doesn't drain too much energy when using its basic functions. Off course logging operations will deplet more.. 9V batteries can provide better output voltage for analog internal circuits on the multimeter but that can be achieved with with switching power supplies. The clamp meter UT204A drains 10mA on DC A from the poor 9V battery and was allso my poor choice on a clamp meter for Solar panels, car and electrical board current measuring
I once had a multi-meter that used a 23A battery. Nice when you run out. You cannot just go to nearest store to get one and they are some 3 € a piece.
So no kickstarter?
How about using AA NiMH low self discharge batteries instead of standard alcaline ones? Could lower voltage be an issue?
Why not an 18650? A panasonic cell provides 11 watt hours. There is a prebuilt circuit for 18650s. It takes a usb input, provides a cc-cv charge, over discharge protection. Over current/short circuit protection. I would certainly prefer a usb rechargeable meter over 9 volts/AA battery's.
if battery life/power density is the question why not use a lithium based rechargeable battery?
Sounds like Eneloops would last about 350 hours. Have you tested those before?
Hold a tick, my 121GW takes a micro SD card? I think I need to read the manual.
why not rechargeable lithium?
Then you need a charging system that preserves the meter's safety ratings. Not impossible but potentially quite a bit of extra work.
Good answer. Too bad I just bought your BM235. Didn't know the 121GW was coming. Oh well, can't have too many meters ... can you? Maybe the next one will have a rechargeable LiPo with a USB connector for charging and data transfer.
Yeah my least favorite part of my Fluke 177 is the poor battery life of the 9v, and its not even doing any of the fancy processing this one is. I finally bit the bullet last time, bought a Energizer Lithium at twice the price. Seems to be hanging in there pretty good so far. Dont know if its worth the extra cost though.
What about making an Automotive DMM? With a detatchable DC amp clamp?
Whats will the selling price be?
Of course the current going in has to be greater due to I-squared-R losses, but who cares about that... as long as it doesn't burst into flame. :) Also most meters these days have an auto-off feature so you don't run down the batteries. So what's the quiescent current draw after it shuts off?
I have an old jemco multitester, it has 2 AA's and a 9v.
the to AA's are parallel.
The one thing I keep hoping for in a multimeter is a Peak Hold (or Store) function - does anyone know of one at a reasonable price?
When I preorder, does it come with free batterizers? ^^
good explanation...
I like the way engineers think
with a buck convertor on the 9V battery, surely you can do better than 150hrs? you'll draw less than 5mA, but still probably worse than the AAs due to the high internal resistance, 9V are awesome if you draw uAs
Very interesting story.
The bloody thing should run on a Mr. Fusion!!
My old portable Ham radio used 8 D cells
Well, with the transmit power being at least a couple W, you'd need that to get good battery life. To be honest, for that kind of application, the best kind of battery would be a 13AH Ni-MH rechargable F size cell. Harder to find, yes, but great capacity.
How long would it last with Batterizer? :))
Your have an engineer's mind to the cell lol, it's one day I will treat myself to this great product you have crafted.
When ever it is released to us public's