Swale - Keypoint - Keyline - clarification
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 มี.ค. 2017
- Often people get confused between these 3 concepts; swale, keypoint and keyline. Moreover people consider keyline as a step for reforestation although it is more extensively used for evenly distribution of moisture over pasture on hills.
As a visual learner, this was by far the best explanation i've seen. Thanks so much!!!
A brilliantly simple way of explaining these 3 concepts delivered with one my favourite flavours of accent. Magnifique! 👌
Ouf, thx a lot! Hearing Richard Perkins talking about avoiding swales and instead using keyline, then Mark Shepard talking about similar stuff, I was really lost. I was under the impression that swales were nothing more than the name for the contour lines trenches in keyline. Now I understand the difference, merci!
Thank you ! What seemed daunting is now very clear to me …this was an excellent presentation. Sharing your skill and knowledge is wonderful. I’ve learned everything I needed to know for my plans and I can now look at my property with new eyes.
The most precise definition of these three concepts on the internet. Thank you. Finally.
La clarté est la clé pour ceux qui endurent le SSPT. Je vais redémarrer les marais.. j'aimerais vraiment avoir vu votre explication précise il y a des semaines. Vivant sur une pente, je pensais que les marécages devraient être tout le long du jardin qui coule. Je vais rediriger et modifier; en raison de fortes pluies bientôt, alors j'espère que j'ai eu du succès. Merci! 🙂✌
among all explanation on swales or keyline with hundreds of thousand views, i still dont get but seen this, now its clear to me thank you
I just loved what you explained through this video. I have struggled to understand the key line and key point concepts clearly when they wee mentioned in books and this is helpful. I still don't know how to identify the key line and key point within my 5 acre farm though but, with this video, I can look with fresh eyes.
I'm a two-dimensional learner, so this didn't come easily to me either. I remember having to watch Geoff's Lawton's video on this about a dozen times, and then I had to walk the property about 7 times until I finally felt the moment when the concave became convex (the keypoint). I now recognize it all over the place! ;-)
Thanks for this clear explanation. You helped me solve a flooding problem.
Thanks much for the insightful demonstation.Made me think there might be something to adding berms in areas with high solar aspect on the up slope or higher on the downslope
Your desire to teach is evident
First video with a clear explanation between key point, keyline and swales. Thank you!
This is the single best explanation/demonstration of this subject I have seen. Thank you
Hi, although I have seen this video 6 years after it was made, it has helped me so much to finally understand the difference between the different concepts. I couldn’t get it when I read about it, but watching you do it with earth/clay has been ideal. Thanks so much
Happy to have helped!!!
There isn't another video like this out there, thank you thank you thank you!
😊❤
Thank you so much! Less talk but great explanation. So clear and insightful! Thank you, sir
A heartfelt THANK YOU for this explanation.!
This beats all the other explanations I've seen, and makes it so clear!
Thank you for explaining these concepts. The visuals were a great help
THank you! Great explanation and demonstration!!!
Thank you very much! The easiest explanation I have seen and I finally understand keypoint and keyline :)
Thanks for showing this! It's really helpful and clear to see a three dimensional representation of what you're talking about.
I'm happy to find someone convinced that 3D modelling is more speaking than 2D modelling. I believe that easy 3D modelling is the future of Permaculture design. It facilitates the placement of the farm functions taking into account gravity essentially related to water, wind and nutrients flows and give more insights about the influence of sun courses (winter, spring, summer,) The addition of the time dimension is as well key to avoid design construction mistake over time. I did a video about how a simple and easy to make 3D platform can provide with simulation capability and increase the success rate of strategic design; aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/08/permaculture-site-design-simulation/
Thank you for making it easier to understand.
Thank you SO much! This video completely cleared up the whole subject. I understood swales, but this made the keypoint and keylines equally understood. Your water and soil demonstration worked better for me than drawings. I subscribed to your channel, and I'm interested in watching whatever you make. Thank you again.
Very informative. I just came across these concepts from watching youtube and didn't quite grasp an understanding of them but your was very helpful. Now I understand
Thank you very much. Simplified to a great extent
Wow! For the first time I finally understand! Thanks!
Благодаря за прекрасните примери, видеото е страхотно!
Thank you, very clear explanation!
That was great! Thank you for such clear demonstration. It was really helpful at clarifying the use of these strategies and how they might interact. Really the best explanation I’ve seen.
Excellent explanation and presentation!
Thank you so much for taking your time and creative ways to explain this, it helped a lot!
Nice demo! Thanks for an easy to understand clarification!
Excellent demonstration and explanation - thank you for the clarity and inspiration :)
I love this explanation!! Thank you!!
Merci beaucoup pour ces démonstrations ! C'est beaucoup plus clair pour moi maintenant. 👍
Excellent ! Thanks for taking the pain to create a model to convey the concept
Never heard it explained like that!! Thank you.
Very clear understandings!!!! Thank you!
Really practical explanation of very difficult concepts. Thanx for taking the time to explain.
Thank you for the visual explanation.
Best explanation I have come accross. Thank you
Thanks. This explains a lot. In my are I would like to protect against drought and heavy rains.
Excellent vlog the best one on the tube
Beautiful Presentation.👌
Excellent information.. thank you v. Much!!!
I was searching for such a video...
Informative demonstration, thank you.
Lovely clear explanation, merci!
Thank you for clearing the difference. I've been learning about permaculture through You tube and Books. your video cleared the difference between the 4 concepts and how to use them on the hill side of land. Merci Beaucoup
hello Gwen here is a page with a video on how to design contour line for a swale: aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/09/swales/
Mongi - The keyline concepts and the use of channels, swales, and water catchments also apply to gently rolling and nearly but not really truly flat land. If water sits on the land after heavy rains, for instance, it can benefit from the use of subsoil rippers to break compaction of the soil, and let air get to the soil and plant roots. Ideally that would be done just slightly off the level of the contour lines that follow the curves of the land- to bring water from where is collects after heavy rains to the higher places that dry out first.
There are other useful techniques that helps the soil to absorb more rain, prevent soil erosion, and/or collect water from rains to use for irrigation where that is needed, but the keyline methods have a lot to offer.
Superb..best i've seen on the differences between these
Great explanation, thanks!
Thank you for this excellent video. I am just starting my permaculture farm and I will apply your explanation on it. Much appreciated...
Wish you success Michael.
thank you a lot for your explanation !
Thank you! That was really helpful.
thank you for explaining!
Thank you, very clear!
Finally I get it! Thank you.
That was great
Thank you
Thank you!
Thank you very much, that is great video to undeestand
very clear, thanks
Thank you so much
Very useful.
Great ....thanks
5 stars, excellent example
Merci!
I had a lot of confusion with this too; this video helped quite a bit. Here's my two cents.
Keyline/Keypoint - place where the valley (between ridges) changes from sharp slope to shallow slope (contour lines are farther apart).
Keyline plow/keylines - subsoil ripping with a Keyline plow is started from just above Keypoint, down below contour on ridges (as video says, they 'hang' towards ridges). They are *off*-contour.
Swale - trench with a berm on which is a food forest. They are level, *on*-contour.
Similarities: both slow, spread and sink water. Keylines allegedly handles similar quantities of water (but more evenly spaced through subsoil of land). It should also reduce runoff in the same way (but I wonder about flooding situations: swales with good overflows should handle it better).
Differences: Keylines are supposed to be a cheaper, less risky (eg. landslides from water), less permanent (which is good regarding Scales of Permanence - a Keylines system's concept), and more mechanization oriented (spacings should be very predictable). An emphasis is made of increasing decay of dead plant material due to presence of subsoiled air, water and biomass for increasing soil fertility.
Some think keylines are for grazing, swales for trees (I've seen in places). Book says otherwise (Yeomans clearly mentions growing crops *and* pasture for grazing). This can also include orchards and pasture.
Upon the whole, I think the only advantage I've seen for swales is that they might handle flooding better, and growing a food forest (bit more chaotic, diverse and less precisely spaced than orchards). Mark Shepard allegedly combines both systems (but I haven't found a really good video on that). Yeomans' system itself has dams and 'water channels' between them (swales? but no food forests are mentioned).
Just a comment about key point. This definition you put here has no mathematical resolution. It's impossible to define the point when the curve change in relative mesure. They are an infinity of points in the definition here above. However the inflection point between concave and convex has a unique point. The key point must be exact in order to position further the water catchment a bit below.
However I do not want to be dogmatic , essentially the hard job in water management is finding the right water flow , the most efficient in average between the volume of water , the season (rain) , the culture, the vegetation and it's evolution, etc.
Thanks Branimir for this addition, very useful. What is key in earth shaping is hybridation with plants. Keylines, swales will be temporary solution. In the end what matters is adding vegetation to the architecture. For keyline it can be small herbaceous plants with deep roots. For swale it can be fruit trees , trees adapted to pruning , cespitose bambu in large properties , for ground cover or structure material production, etc. The destiny of any water catchment, lakes ,ponds is being filled by earth from erosion, just a question of time. The idea is a process which start with earth-shaping and later on gives the baby to nature. She knows best how to fight against erosion and make the soil drink water for soil biology and rizosfere.
Seems to me 'keyline' in this video is just some irrigation line.
Keyline is simply a contour line that goes through the keypoint, i.e. a very specific contour line.
Swales are trenches with berms that can be located on any contour line, including the keyline.
Finally I found the perfect answer for my round mound in my backyard. Thank You! Great explanation. Its all grass right now but I want a veg garden. Wondering what best plants to grow on each terrace. I'm thinking potatoes, tomatoes and anything the deer and rabbits wont eat...any suggestions for starting out?
You're welcome. Potatoes, deers ... rabbits... You are located in the northern hemisphere ? In a temperate climate at least. I don't manage this kind of ecosystem therefore very short on advices. I know that a best practice is to plant perennials food away from the veg to attract deers and distract them to enter the garden. You'll need to check what's the best plant locally. As for rabbits , hum... I guess it's a difficult animal to control. An hedge partly underground ???? Sorry I'm more familiar with African snails (imported without effective predators) and pythons, saruê , predators of chicken. Another local context. :-)
Thank you so much for making this video, I’m sure that It’s very informative, I just couldn’t understand his accent
a "key" point is called an inflection point in math: when a concave slope/function switches to a convex slope/function. the change in the slope at an inflection point is 0: it is no longer become steeper and not yet becoming flatter.
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Very good clarification for these important concepts. Will you use swales in 25% inclinations?
Hello, 25% , yes. If you experience heavy rain fall which could erode rapidly your swale the best would be to secure the border of the swale with fast growing plants deep rooted. With a lot of erosion you may have to cure the swale time to time at least until trees or permanent cover secure the slope.
In the last example would putting a pond at the top be beneficial ?
Hi Helter, having a pond at the top of anything is of value. The deal is ; how to store water so that it can be used later on by gravity. If a reservoir at the top of a hill can be filled using either a channel from above or renewable energy it provides as a buffer with the capacity to spread the humidity down with regularity avoiding extremes in drought and humidity. The pond should have reduced evaporation (aquatic plants or canopy)
Oh…I recall a question I had regarding swales, if someone would be so kind as to advise me..
Will the land beneath a swale get washed away in a few years? Is there some sort of preventative measures to take, or not necessary… like, if there was a house at the top, would the weight of it combine with the water from the swales and wash away the slope from inside
Good afternoon. A swale could be considered a mean for an objective: rehydration of the soil. Then, we must consider the context. If a slope is sharp, it may exist a risk of landslide. In this case, it will be necessary to plant perennials with deep roots to fix the soil below the swale, taking advantage of the water infiltration to nurture and accelerate the vegetation growth. In a second step, the vegetation will act as an armature to prevent erosion. In case of extreme slope and climate, extreme solutions need to be considered: deeper root system.
If too extreme ; assume the risk and create secured zones as no man's areas below the slope (rare situation)
Seems to me term 'keyline' in this video is just some irrigation line.
Keyline is simply a contour line that goes through the keypoint, i.e. a very specific contour line.
Swales are trenches plus berms and can be located on any contour line, including the keyline.
Hello, the keyline doesn't exactly follow the contour but shows a slight slope as a way to drive the flow of water in the direction of the mount which lack humidity.
See I see these methods fighting each other okay when the methods don't fight each other the people do but I'm seeing ways that if properly done yes swales are Overkill in most situations because people use them solely but if you take a Swale and the key lime concept and use the Swale to feed the key lines it sounds preferable and there's a few situations where I'd actually use a damn unless I'm actually generating water power and feeding a Swale slash keyline
Excellent Video. But i think you made one mistake. The keypoint is not the point where the terrain changes from convex to concave. What i know is that i should be the point where the terrain is changing its slope from flat to steep.
Hi Lukas , thanks for the feedback. I gave it some thoughts and will answer a bit later. In the meantime would you have some links to share to have some references ?
So what is preferable?
These techniques are complementary. Roughly; swales for reforestation , keylines for pasture maintenance, keypoint for pond creation. In case of temperate climate with large pasture areas swale can help to grow hedges to complement pastures with wind protection and humidity capture, habitat for biodiversity, fruit and timber production, fertilization through leguminous or rich mulch production.
So how does the water distribution in a keyline set up and pasture maintenance? I have seen Richard Perkins make use of this, but I don't really get how it works, why it's so good and why it disappears over time.
@@drvanon any ditch disappear over time, lake are filled with sediments and finally loose their concave shape. Swales if not managed will be filled with organic matter and soil biosphere will mixe it with earth to remove the shape as well. In the case of keyline it is even more pronounced since the ditch is superficial. A solution would be to create plant barriers instead of excavated keyline but it would mean maintenance as well. Here in the tropics I would use plant with cespitose roots which are not invasive and will keep steady lines over time. In case of strong erosion people use vitiver which have very deep roots. The idea is a barrier which allow some water flow penetration at the same time that it guides the other part of the flow in the area prone to drought.
You are speaking in english, with a french accent, in a channel with a name that is in portuguese.
i'm kinda confused.
I'm a French guy who lives in Brazil . Since Permaculture language of predilection is English I publish both in English and Portuguese. Usually I use English for more advanced topics like theory and design and Portuguese for practical solutions. I'll publish some video in French on another Canal soon. I was wondering if having 2 languages in this canal was prejudicial to the audience. I may try to subtitle some of the videos in the future.
@@stephanealegoria7016 - Personally, this language combinations "landed exactly in my yard". Portuguese, English and French are within my limits of comfort. LOL :-)
Cheers
I have been asked about the way to design contour line for a swale. Here are explanations on how to do so ; aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/09/swales/
i know he means well, but i have no idea what he is talking about.
This video does not assess the different purposes of these techniques. To understand the finality of a Swale you may have a look at this page ; aflorestanova.wordpress.com/2016/04/09/swales/ The purpose of a Keypoint is to help identify the location o Zone 0, the centre of a farm in Permaculture. Keyline design is a way to distribute water evenly on hills, usually used as pastures.
Not clear enough regarding how to identify key points and how keylines work
You keep repeating the water takes the shortest way down, but that is really misleading and not true. Water takes the way of the least resistance, or basically always where the angle down is bigger. But that is not always the shortest way. In fact this can be easily seen in practice with rivers, which are never the shortest path between the river source and the sea/ocean.
This rule of the shortest way is a simplification to describe the system in the limit conditions. To help understand the dynamics in the case of keylines. The issue with the water flow is the variation on water debit. Passing a current threshold the water goes over the canals borders (canceling the resistance of the edge). The result is a distribution of water between the canal contained by the borders and the overflow passing over the edges. The design of the keylines intend to find a balance between these two behaviour with a median able to distribute the water with a maximum coverage.
@@stephanealegoria7016 it's a simplification that is false and it actually makes it more difficult for people to understand the concept as applied in two life, where terrain features are more complex.
@@jankoodziej877 if you could give an exemple of a context where it doesn't apply. Are you confronted with a complexe situation ?
@@stephanealegoria7016 water almost never takes the shortest route. I'm not sure what example you need.
@@jankoodziej877 not the shortest way, the shortest way down. When there is an edge the shortest way down is the way within the limits of the edges.
Call me stupid, but I just wish you'd done pen and paper diagramming.
Why spend two minutes explaining something when 11 minutes will do ! Painful !
Very good explanation!!! Thank you very much!