Why The Church in America is About to Change Forever | Matt Dabbs
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
- A storm is coming for the American Church and it is going to reshape the religious landscape in America for a very long time.
The current economics in America are working to change everything. Rising costs mean our current model is unsustainable and we will have to rethink through what it means to be church.
This video lays out 10 major issues that make the current model unsustainable and 10 reasons why house churches make a great approach that is able to withstand these pressures.
Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
00:42 - #1 - Increased Cost of Living
01:12 - #2 - Increased Cost of Real Estate
01:47 - #3 - Unaffordable Staff
02:18 - #4 - No minister pipeline
03:04 - #5 - Poor Minister Fit
03:56 - #6 - The Business Model Went Bust
04:21 - #7 - Ministers Retiring
04:53 - #8 - People Not Attending
05:44 - #9 - Budgets are down = program decline
06:25 - #10 - Churches aren't making disciples
07:47 - #1 - Real Estate Already Owned
08:13 - #2 - No Need for Professionals
08:38 - #3 - Quick Startup
08:54 - #4 - Makes Church Accessible
09:30 - #5 - Less Bureaucracy
09:57 - #6 - Plethora of Resources
10:40 - #7 - Intergenerational
11:17 - #8 - Discipleship More Natural
11:36 - #9 - More Dependent on God
12:09 - #10 - Higher % using gifts
12:39 - COVID Accelerated Things
14:05 - Not a Condemnation
#church #christianity #housechurch
Join the Revolution:
Weekly Email Update of all content, tools, videos, blogs
eepurl.com/g9I2k9
Facebook page
/ ordinarydisciples
Channel membership / @revolutionofordinaries
Donate - www.paypal.com/paypalme/newwi...
Blessings,
Matt
FTC Legal Disclaimer - Some links in the description of the video may be affiliate links, meaning Wineskins will make commission on sales you make through product/book links. This is at no extra cost to you while allowing you to support the channel!
We dont need programs, just the word of God preached faithfully.
and to make disciples, love the lost, serve the poor, etc...far more too it than preaching.
@@revolutionofordinaries I think faithful preaching of the word would bring all that to the church
I see the modern church on the decline... and I see this comment a lot. "We just need more preaching the word." No - we need people to live Christ and be the church...not just go hear preaching.
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the hearer.
I say bring it on. When I look at the churches in China, North Korea, Iran, etc. I see the Biblical model. It’s just a shame that negative events have to bring us there. All we had to do was follow the model as laid out in the Bible.
I am with you...this will ultimately be for the good of the Kingdom and that excites me!
The whole church model of getting a mortgage and then dangling the faithful over hell if they do not give their hard earned money as a tithe is pure evil.
This idea of give God first and place your family in jeopardy is from Satan.
God never intended us to get tired down by these commitments and shame you to support the church. I saw many families run them selves into the ground as the preachers bought fancy homes and cars.
The reason I heard those families got crushed was they had secret sin or did not give ten percent or just did not have enough faith.
All of this is going to destroy the church and here is a need flash...the church is NOT the body of Christ. Believers are the body of Christ. When I lived in South Korea I heard it again again; why do we warehouse people in the USA and entertain them?
My best day in an "institutional" church was when the pastor got up to preach, only to say that the Holy Spirit was prompting him to sit down instead. What followed was 10 very awkward minutes of silence and then the Holy Spirit showing up in power.
Sometimes, the best thing we can do is get out of God's way.
We have to get out of the way! Appreciate you leaving a comment.
Wow! I saw exactly the same thing happen at my church. The pastor later admitted that he did not prepare a sermon and came up with this idea.
Amen Matt. Happening in South Africa more and more. I pastored denominational churches for 38 years. I bailed the institution 18 years ago for house church. No regrets.
Praise God! Thanks for leaving a comment!
Running the church like an American business has been a huge turn off to the people looking to find holiness and humility
A much simpler version will draw people back to the church
Church is a business with a product to sell
But, that's what they do.
- the pastor MUST be married many of these "so called churches say" no matter how small the church may be.
Unmarried mother, who recently pulled youngest from school to homeschool, witnessing a convergence of paths all leading back home.
God uses the home throughout the entire Bible...but we had a different path in America that we got from Europe...look at Europe. It is dead.
We all will come home.
Same here, you are not alone ❤
I agree with everything you said my dear Brother. I'm just starting a group of people. We're about 10 people and I'm very scared to take them to a church where they don't care for them. I am going to the church here in Australia and to tell you the truth. I don't really like it. I've been in the ministry for many many years and I feel that the Lord wants me to start a house church. I have started it we are meeting every friday night at the moment. Last year we had this meeting every two weeks and now we have it every week. the Lord is really blessing it. I don't have much money, but the Lord is really blessing it. Thank you so much for your encouragement and your great words of wisdom. May the Lord richly bless your wonderful ministry.
Blessings
Love this! Keep following God's lead and I am going to keep encouraging and pressing forward!
I am so happy this is happening. Thank you for your channel and the resources you share. We started doing a small gathering of church after i felt the Lord finally release me from the institutional church. I have grown more in these last two meetings than in my whole life of going to “church”. While i do want to speak respectfully of the “traditional church”, i also want to highlight that i believe that model is not based on the foundation of scripture. I believe we can speak respectfully of it but clearly point people to scripture and show them that God has a blueprint for the church and we need to be obedient in using it. i recently realized that it is like when the Israelites wanted a king instead of listening to God himself in the book of 1 samuel. God allowed it but most of the kings were a disaster. I believe a similar situation has happened in the church where human nature wants to place a pastor on a platform and look to a human. May the Lord quickly do away with this so we follow Christ alone. And may we hear from God how to speak to our fellow Christians who are still in the traditional church and gracefully explain the scriptures and the beauty of fully obeying God’s Word. ❤🎉
When you critique the traditional model, you are not insulting the bride of Christ because she is not these brick and mortar buildings. She is the church that needs to be liberated from these human traditions and the yoke of slavery.
Church will collapse and these people will fall away. Good by!
Being a Pastor or having a ‘job’ in the church was NEVER a career choice with a salary.
It is okay to get paid for the work - 2 Cor 9 - but I agree it wasn't intended on being what we made it.
@@revolutionofordinaries th-cam.com/video/mbItJZisYr8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xx89TOTqr-n8oNQY
@@revolutionofordinaries th-cam.com/video/j-rJ3n5msOY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ZmVLS8b67uMUJb8K
Sure it was!
@@VictorianMaid99 no, it wasn’t
The problem I see is that many so called pastors are not pastoring to edify and feed the body of Christ but for personal gain. I’ve seen and experienced it, pastors that see the church as the means to either live a comfortable lifestyle or just as any other profession. Also don’t forget that the early church was done in houses
We had a pastor who really believed in service. His father was a minister, as well as a brother. He had his D.Div., but he refused to be called Doctor, and he never had doctor stripes on his robes. He was very humble.
The next minister wanted a new parsonage, and he didn't feel the pastor should lock up the church.
I made the mistake of saying that he wanted to be treated like a Catholic priest. I was attending a Catholic law school, and classmates told how their parish priests were waited on hand and foot.
I’m so excited to see the trend of house churches growing and I’m so happy that the congregation I preach for is implementing more house church/small group activities with an emphasis on discipleship in its weekly routine. However, it’s kind of bitter sweet for me because there is a strong possibility that continuing to help the congregation in this direction will force me to change my livelihood and create strain in my family. God is faithful and will provide for our needs, but the transition is challenging and a bit scary when I have nothing to fall back on.
Thank you for sharing that and may God guide you and your family as you trust Him moving forward.
Many modern churches are kinda worthless. 1 person preaching their views/denominational views, while the church doesn't interact, add, etc. So little growth and learning. Half the people are sleeping or day dreaming, only there out of obligation. Also so much focus on money & doing what pastor desires, he/she putting themselves in God's place at times.
We must never forget that the “Church” is the Bride of Christ.
Maybe this is how the chaff is separated from the wheat?
God loves his church! We have just subverted it for branding and kingdom building...not everyone has done that but quite a few have turned church into an industry.
Laughable
thank you this is a great message and needed greatly at this time
So glad! Thanks for leaving a comment!
The institutional model we have had has been a problem from the start. We are only seeing the weaknesses cause decay now. The paradigm has been wrong for generations.
Lots of truth there...appreciate you leaving a comment.
You teased that a visit to Canada prompted this video but didn't really describe what you saw.
Good analysis.
An experience with a house church, I know of a congregation of about max 30 attendees that met on a man's country property in his cleaned up pole barn in Mid- Michigan.
They began meeting like this a few years prior to Covid.
Recently, the county shut them down using "zoning laws" after neighbors complained who hadn't done so for many years. Used the laws about "public meeting accommodations" against them.
Now the congregation is forced to seek out "commercial" property to meet together in with all its costs.
I won't be surprised if zoning laws are used against them again Retail /Office/Business vs Church designations.
It seems even house Church models may be broken I'm afraid.
There are healthy models when it comes to house churches just like there are healthy models for churches with buildings...we need to get that info out.
This is a huge reason I promote libertarianism. It would do away with laws that only get enforced to get rid of political opponents.
Fellowship is a big issue today ... to many churches have no community while the majority members just attend service and go home. You have congregations that aren't involved in their local politics and wonder why their towns are changing. The old church model has lost power because they have gotten lazy and are too worried about their wallets.
We got complacent and settled.
My closest church has two sanctuaries that are connected by a classroom building and also has a large playground. It survives by renting out the second sanctuary to a 'house church', and renting the classroom building and playground to a cooperative preschool. Otherwise ...
At least the space is getting used...appreciate you leaving a comment Anna!
The Lord spoke to my heart more than 3 decades ago that the church was going to move back into homes in greater numbers. The church started in homes and I sensed it was going to end up back in homes before Christ's return. It frankly is the more Biblical paradigm if you really study it out. If you read the Pauline epistles for example, he was often in those letters saying a greeting or salutation to the church in so-and-so's home, etc. Bear in mind, this was many years after the birth of the church. Even in the Book of Acts it states that the Apostles and believers went from "house to house," not church house to church house or temple to temple. Christians are hungering for more intimate fellowship and home churches are the model that can usually deliver this. "Houses That Change the World," by Wolfgang Simson is a useful book on all of this as well as "Where Do We Go From Here" by Ralph W. Neighbor Jr. and "The Death of the Church" by Mike Regele. Thank you for your videos and ministry. You are on the right track. Most of mainline denominationalism will go kicking and screaming against this. Just follow their money trail. However, keep listening to the Lord no matter the criticism or opposition. Large numbers of us fellow believers have been getting this same vision for the church for quite a long time. The new wine must go into new wineskins. I have been a part of home churches for many, many years. God moves mightily in them. I've seen it. God bless!
Wow! Love this so much Richie!!! Thank you for your encouragement...we need to seek God's lead and follow wherever He takes us! Appreciate you.
I agree, and what is truly exciting is that as traditional brick-and-mortar churches diminish, so too will denominational divides. We will begin to witness the unification of the body of Christ as one cohesive entity, rather than as separate factions. Praise God!
That's such a great point!
I do hope and pray you are right. Enough division, 45,000 denominations worldwide, is enough!
Ever since I read “Letters to the Church”, by Francis Chan several years ago, I have thought that this is indeed the way we should, and will be trending. I’ve seen some slow and gradual trend this way within my own church experience. I often say it is similar to the trend of shopping at mega malls, down to smaller shopping centers and local businesses. In its time, it served a good purpose but times are changing and the church needs to adapt. I’m excited to see where God is taking us into perhaps unfamiliar territory to help us connect with Him and each other in ever deepening ways.
It is going to be uncomfortable but also wonderful!
The mindset that ministers are "trained professionals" is part of the problem. The Apostles were not trained professionals. In fact, that point was noted clearly in Acts.
They were unschooled and ordinary...the perfect people for God to use.
Maybe masses of people will see the point of having non professionals.
After all, masses saw what a fraud the past 4 years were, with the "Trust the experts! and Trust The Science TM incorporated."
I like the saying that I don't have a pilot's license. I know if I see a helicopter in a tree, someone screwed up.
@@skylinefever That's a good one!
I'm sure the masses will never see anything true or useful, but it feels good knowing there are a few of us out here who see it.
They say those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, so I studied, right?
What they don't tell us is that the masses do not learn anything about history and doom us all to repeat it. LOL
@@busker153 Mencius Moldbug argues that the people in charge know that we learn from history. In order to change outcomes, those who are in charge may ration off historic facts.
His discussion of The Cathedral and The Bazaar is one of the most fascinating explanations of society I ever read. When I combined it with the Vox Day Mitwit discussion, I argued that the combination of the two could explain half the stuff that went on over the past 4 years. They called the current people in charge "The atheocracy." I think that is a brilliant name because I never had any tolerance for the 1980s Focus On The Family theocrats who called video games a tool of Satan
He argues that it is behind why fascism gets as much hate as it does. It deserves the hate. He also argues it is why communism does not get as much hate as it should be getting.
@@skylinefever That video games are a tool of satan is undeniable, but that is to say almost nothing as he uses whatever is at hand to use, like we do.
I think that The Bible makes perfect sense of all that is happening in the world today, and for its entire history, for that matter. I expect no substantial changes.
When you go into a church and the pastor or congregation say something frightening you can get up and walk out, when you go into someone’s home watch and pray that you can get out.
What would keep you from leaving? We have people who need to go for various reasons and they go. Are you saying it is social awkward or like a cult or what?
Interesting thought about the monologue sermon. I guess the admonition to preach the word got put into the hands of the guy that stands up front
That's a lot of the issue...we pay people to do what everyone should be doing. Preach = proclaim. That doesn't require a degree or pulpit.
Conventional church is multi-generational and not usually inter-generational. Big difference.
That's such a great way to say it!!! Brilliant...appreciate you adding value in the comments. Thanks for watching.
Love this! Very well done Matt. Powerful and useful tool for the Kingdom.
Thanks so much!
Thank you for the interesting view.
You are welcome!
I'm all in support of this change, as I agree it's what led to a lot of the early Church's growth as you could connect with the community. My question though, is how about those traveling through? Your regular Joes weren't traveling in biblical times. Is anyone working to generate a network of house churches?
That is going to be a sticking point. There are some efforts to put maps out of these and I imagine that will improve as this becomes more prevalent. Not all house churches will want visitors, though too.
Thank you Matt. Excellent content. I'm an elder at King's Orchard Church of Christ in Wenatchee, Washington. We are a church with about 75 members. We own a facility in a desirable central neighborhood in town. We are operating in a traditional church model framework and have been for many decades. I'd be interested in learning how our traditional church could rapidly, deeply and impactfully employ house church concepts while still benefitting from our facility and central space (i.e. not going through the devastating prospect of liquidating assets and starting over). Thank you!
I had an email come through on this...will reply and be in touch Eric!
Matt, I totally agree. I would add two more reasons for the coming changes. First of all much of what is said to be Biblical church practices cannot be found in the Scriptures. A book co-authored by Frank Viola and George Barna entitled Pagan Christianity, documents the source of these extraBiblical practices. Secondly, the model of traditional/institutional which we all inherited, regardless of our denominational affiliation, is highly dependent on cultural support, which we no longer have. My suggestion is that we read what Paul wrote to the church at Ephesus, and then put it into practice. Also we need to be praying with like minded believers to have the boldness to live lives worthy of our calling.
Great book by two great people! Thanks for leaving a comment Robert!
The church I was baptized and confirmed in just merged with the church I now attend.
In the 1960s, it had nearly 1,000 members and had built a new building, because the prior building was too small.
By 1980, it was down to 500 members.
When it closed this year, the average Sunday attendance was between 12 and 20. The parsonage had been sold. The only paid staff person was the pastor, and he was being shared with another congregation.
The problem was poor appointments.
The pastor who baptized and confirmed me preached politics from the pulpit and drove people to a nearby Congregational church and a mega-church.
The next pastor could not relate to anyone under the age of 50. He also preached 35 minute sermons. He should have taught seminary.
The next pastor had been at his prior church for 20 years and did not want to be at our church. He also drmanded a larger parsonage, which he did not receive.
The next pastor immediately thought we should buy the house next door, knock it down, and create a parking lot. That went over poorly and angered the home owners.
As much as a church is about its members, if a church gets bad pastor after bad pastor, whether appointed by a bishop or called by the congregation, it has a detrimental effect on the church's viability.
I don't know that it'll be more house churches than traditional, but i do think we'll see mostly mega churches and house churches, with not much in between.
I think that is quite likely...people will be drawn to large gatherings, big personalities, etc.
I'm all for it, would definitely bring a much greater intimacy with the Word of God, as well as a much closer relationship with our brethren.
Well let's go! Thanks for your comment.
I too believe in 10 yrs the landscape of the church will be much different. I literally said that 2 weeks ago in a sermon.
I believe most will be consumed by the bigger seeker friendly churches. Also like you said many are aging out and the younger don't have interest.
I have been thinking a little about starting a house church myself. Still praying about it
Yes! Definitely pray about it...God is moving more and more people toward this.
Great video! I am interested in an elaboration of what you mean by “fortress mode”. 13:41 God bless you!
Thank you for your comments and perspective Matt. I believe those who are well grounded in the word of God and walk in dependence on the Holy Spirit will find their way in this chaos. God will provide.
Amen brother!
Why not just don't prescribe what church should look like... Wether that's in a house, in a church building, in a park, in a school gym, in a business on a Tuesday night.
Be flexible and adapt to local needs and conditions is key I think.
wow, I appreciate your point of view. I agree with you. I have a small International Ministry and I see this everywhere. In India House Churches are everywhere. In Pakistan, Iran, China, and throughout the world. Money and legal issues are why. The whole church world got shifted into a forced run situation in covid. Now the reality sets in. I say go for the Church Planting in Homes or anywhere it can be done without a financial burden on the people and stress.
Yes Franklin! God bless you and thank you for leaving a comment!
My church is getting a new pastor in 6 weeks. Our current pastor is retiring.
She, and our district superintendent, believe that the primary responsibility for a congregation to find new members and keep current members is not the pastor's or the membership committee.
It is the responsibility of every member of the congregation.
If a member knows a neighbor, friend, relative, or co-worker does not belong to a church, invite him or her.
What is going to happen if someone gets invited? Will they hear the gospel? Will they see transformed people? What is going to happen in the assembly that inviting them in the first step?
Right on! Right on!
Thank you Moses! God bless you.
Great video. Are there any stats about the post-covid CoC membership numbers?
I don’t know of any studies that have been done on a grand scale. Experience says that numbers are way down.
So interesting
Thank you for watching! Appreciate you leaving a comment. What did you find most interesting?
Also upkeep of older church buildings can be $10, 000s or into the $ millions in restoration cost. Book of Acts is a good model , after all.
Im also tied of church " coffee shops" and C grade rock bands on stage.
Is it good stewardship? Appreciate you taking time to comment!
Interesting. I am reminded: Jesus was not impressed by religious buildings (Mt. 24:2; Mk13:2; Lk 21:16)
Amen. Appreciate you watching and commenting. God bless you!
Upon further reflection: I'd revise my original comment to read "... not impressed by BIG religious buildings" (re Scripture references). Attending one of the largest in the world, this situation is presented to me routinely. I have a sense Jesus was also distressed by large crowds (and not a building in sight). I consider he much preferred more intimate gatherings ... like dinner parties and "house churches". 🙂
1 Pet 4:17, "the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God."
Great verse...we need to be alert. Thanks for your comment!
@@revolutionofordinaries not only that, but we see those following "another gospel" distancing themselves from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The wheat and chaff are being separated.
Absolutely agree. The institutional church no longer works. Missler predicted this a few years ago.
Better days ahead!
I’m apostolic Pentecostal, so you and I have very different core beliefs. However, we’ve been having house church for over a year. The problem I see however with what we’re doing is that we’re basically trying to do big church in a small setting I.e. prayer, a few worship songs, prayer, I teach a lesson that week, closing prayer (sometimes altar call). Then it’s over. It feels like we’re growing in some ways, but overall we’re stagnant. Any advice you can give on “how to do” home church is greatly appreciated. I’m asking you because there’s basically no one in the apostolic Pentecostal realm doing home church at all. I see them struggling with all you said here. Their response seems to be to circle the wagons, shoot for bigger and more centralized churches and absorb the small churches as they fade away. This is not what I see in scripture. Help please!
Look up zume.training and check out three thirds groups. There is an amazing free training module in there. I will be building out an online training this Summer
Look up John Fenn. He has awesome teachings about house church.
@@nancyshopteese7847 Thanks Nancy! Appreciate you leaving a comment! - Matt
Thanks. I’ll check it out. God bless!
Two things. There’s ideal and less than ideal. The house church is ideal and there are churches that go south from there. You can get a church that is more organic and relational and where everyone is a priest going all the way down to the mega-church where God is “still there,” “Christians are still there and they sincerely love God but it is farthest from the center-that ideal. Second, I’ve hated the politics of the mega-church or traditional church and have walked away from that-from the ego from the professionalism from the programs, etc. I’m of the belief that having a “pastor” in the professional sense ultimately is egocentric. There’s no room for ego in the church. It’s funny how all these traditional churches have sought to be progressive and relevant and with the times are very much…well traditional.
Thank you BBBC...I agree with your assessment to a degree. There are always exceptions and some nuance but in principle I think you are right.
If ministry is stressful, you are doing it wrong. Jesus' yoke is easy, and His burden is light. There is no arguing this point.
About the non-trained minister issue. Only 2 men in our congregation of 130 has a higher level of religious education and one is 80+ yrs old. Our non-trained preacher works a regular job during the week. So to be honest I’m hungry for some depth in our classes/sermons. Everything seems so surface level teachings. But maybe I just need a better attitude but it’s difficult to want to grow spiritually and be challenged but it’s hard to do when things aren’t very deep.
Also, I live in a rural area with lots of small country churches (no debt) that are dying out in the next 15-20 yrs. Most people want to attend a church where there are more kids for interaction. We live 5 miles from a small church but drive 20 minutes to another church. But I feel like if more people would stay in the community they live in and work with that church to keep these churches alive it would make a bigger impact on that particular community. But unfortunately most churches in our area don’t interact with each other very much.
I wish churches would interact a lot more than they do...I think God would be pleased by that. Thanks for leaving a comment!
With all problems with abuse of authority and sexual shenanigans from church prominent leaders I say it's time to eliminate the role of pastor completely. Just like Saul the pastor whole starts out humble ends up arrogant without even knowingit.
Well, the monologue sermon is what sustains the 'pastor'. The monologue sermon isn't part of the New Testamant church nor found in the Bible.
Pastors in the Bible were elders...not what we see in most churches today. They were shepherds.
Thank you for this. Was invited to church. I left, found out the pastor was having an adulterous relationship. Now is going through divorce and marry the the woman he was cheating with. So I’m done.
How does one find a house church? I live in an area where the churches have either adopted the mega church style or are downright apostate. Neither gives me peace in my soul.
Many are starting them. I have videos here on how to do that and will be building out a training this Summer.
As a pastor who left a traditional church model to build something small that will teach the actual Bible and disciple Jesus followers, I agree (from an insider view) with this list. Both the Pastors and the commitees had a role in the problems I saw.
On top of this list, I would add the issues of top leaders of whole denominations covering rampant sexual abuse, making sweeping resolutions to ignore whatever parts of the Bible doesn't fit their fancy, etc.
Many in the churches claimed the problem was "persecution" and "cultural Godlessness". Not from what I saw. Mostly, it was churches killing themselves with leaders who had no idea how to be servants, didn't know the Bible, and didn't help anyone else learn it.
Probably the "Godlessness" is, at least in part, sad evidence of the churches failing to focus on their main jobs rather than evidence of persecution.
Those are solid additions to the list of issues...thank you for bringing them up Robin. And thanks for taking the time to leave such a substantive comment!
Our children left the church because it was a circus.
@@VictorianMaid99 I get that. Our son and daughter both struggled until they found simpler (as in more Bible, less nonsense) Christian groups to be part of.
While I agree that church as we know it will change, I don't think that necessarily requires all to be house churches.
What about a church that occupies and reuses empty commercial real estate on disadvantaged property, instituting a number of programs whose aim is to help the economic situation of the membership, providing space for other Christian non-profits, and even including housing for the ministry staff, which themselves are acquired by unusual means?
Granted, such a thing could not be created through man's ability, but our God is creative enough to grow a church in spite of economics. It can't come through traditional models, but already churches like I have just described are popping up or are in the vision stages.
Agreed...they won't all be house churches. That's why I am saying the house churches will outnumber the traditional churches, not that they will all be house churches. God has a place for all kinds of models in various times and places.
Do you have numbers on the trends you are seeing? It would be really interesting to see how this is distributed across the country.
Also, while house churches have an immediacy that can be energizing and inspiring it limits the scope of collective action, and the ability to settle questions.
In the New Testament the Apostles provided an authority that keeped the early church coordinated. What do you see is providing that coordination in this move too house churches
The best I know is at 2414.net
We never needed a church model, we just need Jesus. The church model is what lead to this outcome, to be honest.
I see where you are coming from and Jesus is central. The only way to have a model that isn't a model is to try to discern the Spirit's move and follow His lead...but no matter what you do it ends up as a model on some level.
Frankly I have never liked how the gathering of Christian’s in the American model of what we call church, functions.
Buildings budget staffs programs. Two songs a prayer a choir and a message; is the church???????
Hardly. I stay frustrated. God help me and us to move back to what the church looked like when the apostles were alive.
Appreciate where you are coming from...thanks for leaving a comment!
Perhaps read the masterpiece novel “Where Do We Go Now, LORD? - Burke.” Explains much. Very much.
Maybe we can learn how to have a house church from the Amish. 😊
We learned a few things from them.
How do you define “making disciples?” I think most churches would claim they are doing that very thing through their sermons and programs.
Less than 5% of american churches are serious about making disciples...and that was pre-covid...
discipleship.org/blog/national-study-on-the-state-of-disciple-making-in-us-churches/
Jesus-style disciple making...Jesus modeled how to do it. We imitate his approach and we will not only make disciples...we will make disciple makers because the approach of Jesus was/is reproducible.
Thank you. I’ll check out that link.
Those false teachers Feed only of themselves They're gonna have a hard time. It's gonna be plain obvious who they are. The Christian church is being hijacked with legalism & Hypocrisy with the side hand of Heavy Shepherding. Praise God that he woke me up as well with my brothers and sisters and Christ. Hope for many more. Jesus is the way the true shepherd. Be lead by the spirit and truth.
God has a remnant. Appreciate you leaving a comment.
Calling the institutional, building bound, programmatic churches "traditional church" is like calling public school "traditional education" - while they both have been going for a while, it doesn't mean that it's the best way.
It is what we know as our tradition at this point in time. The video is making the same point you are making ;)
We honestly believe that making disciples means something other than working with someone to help them develop a powerful prayer life. It does not.
My church, your church, our church, their church. Can you hear the problem? What about the church (gathering together of the saints) of Jesus Christ.
This is the way to go and will go. Bless the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Jesus Christ our lord and saviour. 15:36
Those terms make sense in certain contexts but I get your point. It is all HIS church!
So if all churches move this direction, there will be all the home Churches and the LDS Church going to church buildings. The LDS fairh doesn't worry about much of this, it's the way we work anyways... Seriously, all the problems he talked about, we take care of most of it in the LDS faith.
So most likely more online churches?
There will be more of those
Why shld ministers be paid. ? So who gets paid in house church!?
That’s up to the house church. There is no governing body over house churches to decide that for all house churches. So start a house church and practice your conviction based on the scriptures.
Why should ministers be paid? Depends on the situation. Read 1 Cor 9.
Terrorism in Amaerica would stop folks from attending large gatherings too.
Let's hope it doesn't come to that. Appreciate you leaving a comment.
So what exactly is an American church?
Good question - I call it that for a very specific reason. Here in America, we have morphed church into a business model that is comprised of delivering goods and services through programmatic means...we attract people by offering quality goods and services and appeal to the consumeristic instincts of our culture. That's why I call it the American church and not just the church because this doesn't happen in other places...except where we exported this model to.
hi matt............what place in canada were you visiting....?? i might know them. paul john in ottawa......hey. if people are hungry to walk in the
spirit . they can..........how humble are they to let the holy spirit lead them.........hey. its up to them mega churches pay.....so they want a salary
and i appreciate that awana has a good ministry.......my girls grew up with this.......but after teens. they leave ........hey. lets grow people
in as whole persons......spiritually firsts.....mentally. sociALLLY physically............this is balance...........but prayer.....about this and working
with the holy spirit.........if we dont.........there will be decline...................or we can be refined in the holy spirit.
blessings matt. you are shaking it up.............and we need it............brothers in christ.........no competition thats one of the evils that goes on.
paul john
Prince Edward Island!
We cant afford to church plant. The land is too much $.
That’s the point of the video. You can’t afford a dedicated church building but the park is free. Outside is free. An apartment or home is already being paid for.
Founded underground house churches in communist countries. In one country for 21 years. House churches are already the rule for congregations that are genuinely Biblicist (Bible-believing)---they want order and authority structures, however. I'm afraid that this would not be the case yet in the USA. Americans will treat house church more like a Tupperware party.
Appreciate you and your experience. I encourage you to check out Curtis Sergeant, Zume and 2414now.net all of it is very encouraging on what God is doing around the world and in the US.
Why are all those materials free? Because those ministries are backed by churches!
Similarly without trained pastors you risk veering from the truth unawares.
Church doesn't need to be "new" it needs to be faithful in the preaching of the Word.
There are plenty of educated false teachers as well. How churches actually tend to suffer from less false teaching in heresy because there is accountability involved.
I'd say we won't be here in 10 years
Time will tell...maybe 5 :)
Please share your thoughts so we can talk this through together...where do you see church in America in 10 years? Why?
There’s nothing wrong with programming and many church do this quite well. The Church is going to change not because of the reasons presented here though these things will have an impact but the great falling away will commence once persecution dramatically increases and many leaders will obey to avoid persecution and follow their own hedonism.
Economics is already in play. Persecution is not. So my hunch, could be wrong, is that economics will get the decline going before persecution. In fact, all this traditional church decline and move home might prepare us for persecution down the road.
Churches are closing left and right
the revelation 12 sign of 2017 was a call to come out of captivity. He is coming soon
Traditional churches, does not bring people together, only Jesus does that!.. mathew 18:20.. Amos 5:21-24.. acts 4:12..
Only God can make it grow but it helps if we cooperate!
yOU REALLY THINK THAT WE WILL BE HERE IN 10 YEARS?? MAYBE A FEW MONTHS. TAKE A LOOK AT REVELATION AND THE JEWISH CALENDAR... BROTHERS AND SISTERS, WE ARE LEAVING SOOOOON. NO 10 YEARS. BLESSINGS...
Only God knows! Thanks for leaving a comment and watching.
Stop all this wasting of money on church buildings, media, speakers, mics, tv screens,etc. Jesus sat on side of a mountain to speak to people. Thousands showed up.
The end church. Jesus said He will come into him, the individual, and sup with Him. The Greek is the singular. Some say it is the church, but that does not make sense in the passage where it is about individuals repenting. Even the 'house church' is a concern. The single concern about these house churches, is the problem of 2000 years, bad men taking the lead. Men who have the wrong qualifications. Man should not be judged by the letters in front of His name, or what theological college he went to, but the quality of his heart. James and Paul are clearly who should take the lead in church, and it should not be a focus on authority. when men come together there are always little despots who want to take control and use all types of 'methodeia' (Strong's G3180). A word, by the way, used in relation to the Devil's schemes. First and foremost the individual sups with Christ as he reads the word. The advantage of Christ coming into the inner man is that He sees you on the inside and knows exactly the buttons to press in order to help you see the old man. Once seen, He is able to guide you through the steps of the Holy Spirit into sanctification, putting off the old and putting on the new. The advantage of this it that it enables you to judge all things and make informed decisions on the hearts of those seeking to take control even in the little house churches. Remember where there is a carcass....?
Christian institutional religion doesn't work nor represent Christ because it lumps everything Godly & every role into one...the church. Everything must flow through "the church". It simply isn't true nor right. First off, discipleship isn't a function of church...fellowship & other communal Body work via Christ's Headship leading is. Discipleship is a personal process of following Christ. When we lump discipleship w/fellowship we get it wrong & we say forget the Head and individually taking the commands from the Head and we are going to do the Body aka church. You and others might push back and say the first disciples lived communally as they were discipled. That is just because Jesus was one person physically & brought multiple disciples with Him but He actually personally trained each of them. He didn't just sit back & oversee as they did church & discipled each other. It would be great to get the Body back to organic & real life fellowship but we still don't realize the power of institutional thinking & how much we will continue to make church the driver of all things even if we were to transition back to house churches. What we need is effectively to "burn out/away" all church-is-first-&-primary mentality before we will ever be able to have revival & return to Christ. Church involvement & attendance does not equal discipleship but we are 100% convinced it does. There are paradoxes in so many areas & aspects of God. Yes, there is Body Life but also Yes & contrary to us now in the "church age", there is a personal walk w/Christ that church cannot & should not supersede nor try to mix. Quite literally a proper return to Christ would be stop all church (house or org) & learn to walk with Him & then do as/when He says regarding His Body.
What you are saying takes a tremendous level of intentionality...and the church has always needed that to be the case. But somehow we missed it and aimed at the wrong things.