Just a friendly reminder, Grivel just launched the Scream belay device. It is rated for use down to 5mm cords and up to 8mm, covering a super wide range of ropes and use cases when thinking about SkiMo. It’s a simple stitching plate/placcette, so it’s about as light and simple as these things get. And for like $30 a great deal
@@elonquemattheson6151 I don’t own an BD ATC alpine guide. Honestly it’s probably way bigger and more encumbering on the harness. Idk if it’s lighter or not. For me the extra portability is a real bonus for me as my RAD Line is more for emergency use and having that kit be as small and handy as possible is a safety feature as in makes taking it along easier to accept. I have tested and practiced with the device on my RAD Line kit. Works fine for me. The addition of a few lockers, two prusiks and a few runners allow me to have a full ascension and rope rappel kit. I’m happy.
@@macmurfy2jka It's about 10mm thicker than a Scream, but it works better. Munter hitching directly onto a Plume HMS is even lighter and more compact, but it doesn't work as well. Everything's a tradeoff.
@@elonquemattheson6151 but the addition of the wire makes that not really true. And about the Munter+Plume, I seriously disagree. The inability to ditch the device into a progress capture device while on rappeland doig so without coming off the rope, makes a Munter far inferior to either the Scream or ATC. And this doesn’t even take the rope twist issue into consideration. I know you are playing Devil’s advocate here. And I would willingly concede that the ATC would be better for alpine climbing on 7-8mm double ropes and the like. For that, I would totally agree. But the biggest difference with the Scream vs the ATC Alpine is that the Scream works down to 5mm ropes. That means it works with Titan Powercord and others like it. Without getting fancy, I’m not sure the ATC would work here. That easy use it important for me. Anytime I need to learn and apply new techniques, I worry that my far less savvy partners will be able to keep up. The less new I need to learn, the more easily I would be able to apply those old techniques in high stress situations. At the end of the day it’s a placket. If used like any other placket, it works as expected. Done. It will never behave like a tuber, because it’s not a tuber. That’s okay.
@@macmurfy2jka You can snip off the wire if you want to make it more like the Scream. It's just there for retention, it's not functional while you're belaying. When you don't need the second carabiner like the Scream does, it ends up lighter and more compact. People who have tested both on 5-6mm ropes all say that the Alpine Guide is more effective, even though it's technically not rated for them. You can try it for yourself if you want, it's only $35 and functions similarly to the Scream. You don't have to try it, but it is good to have options.
Damn dude. Great video. Came to the many of the same conclusions after picking up the Petzl Rad 60m regarding the Reverso and number of your other points. Great to see the comparison with the other ropes. Keep the specific ski mountaineering videos coming.
First and foremost, thank you for the video and sharing your knowledge. I have a ski culture question - in much the same way people often choose the least expensive (and shortest range) transceiver and smallest shovel to save money and weight, how do you manage people who only want to bring (or only have) a 30m RAD line when a RAP line is better suited to the shared objective? Do you ask them to purchase the appropriate equipment to be shared between you? Do you purchase a 60m RAP line yourself and ask them to carry it since they didn’t have to commit financially? Do you find better tour partners who are more willing to spend the money on the appropriate equipment? - thank you Bonus question 1 - what length rope do you recommend as a first purchase? Bonus question 2 - what about the Black Diamond ATC Alpine Guide? It’s rated at 6.9-9mm which is quite close.
I think when we're debating ultra-niche hyperstatic ropes, we've hopefully moved past buying the cheapest option. For those people, there's always the 30m 8mm half rope that you can get for like $30. I generally have a spare to loan out to partners if they don't have one but almost always, a partner will see the value of the higher quality and then go buy their own. At this point, most of my partners are pretty dialled so it's a non issue. BQ1 - 30 is the minimum for sure. Better value and versatility with a 60m. You can always cut it in half as you said and share with a friend! BQ2 - 100% would work. I don't like that BD has a parent company that makes guns and stuff so I try to avoid spending money there. Wouldn't fault anyone for it though!
@3k8d - in some cases the breaking strength is much lower on tag lines and just insufficient. Just as important though is that tag lines are static and taking a fall, on rock or into a crevasse, on a static rope is really dangerous.
It depends on the situation. If you expected extensive fixed anchor belaying, a half rope would be more appropriate. Ideally though, you’d just use a dynamic belay with the RAD line (standard glacier travel mode tied together) with people moving together to approach the bridge.
Hello, great video! Since maybe rappeling is the most often situation during ski mountaineering, could you maybe list some instructions or videos which you find usefull? Btw, great job with this one, learned a lot as a beginner!
Great video! Would you trust the rad line or edelrid cords for a fully freehanging rappel where all of your weight is on the rope (as opposed to just walking backwards down a steep slope where a significant part of your weight is still on the slope itself)? Or in that scenario would you only use that as a tagline with a thicker rope for the rappel itself?
@@skiericcarter Cool, thanks for the reply! Another silly question but... if tying into the (doubled up) edelrid line for an emergency lead, would you have the climber tie into the end with the two loose strands (like a twin/half rope) or into the loop at the middle marker (and in this case, what knot would you use on that end)? Cheers!
@@skiericcarter and @fallineJP same question as above, after viewing this video, it seems like an Edelrid Rap Line Protect Pro would be ideal for climbing around me. Mostly for rappels, but able to lead climbs in a pinch when I need it. Would you use a 60m and double the rope on lead, and tie into the loose ends? or at the midway mark with butterfly knot or something? or would you take two 30mm ropes like a double rope? Thanks!
@@dfishdesign531185 yeah - the RAD is not suitable for climbing so that makes it pretty simple. Edelrid RLP is technically rated for ascent but I’d still use it pretty cautiously. Low angle snow slopes or alpine terrain where fall forces are low and friction helps, yep. Super steep or around sharp edges, maybe not. If you have a 60, you can have one person girth hitch to the middle of the rope (pass a bight through their belay loop and then step through it) with the other ties to both ends. If you cut it in half and have 2x 30m that’s definitely better for glacier travel and you can both tie to both ends.
Thanks for the info. I enjoyed listening to it. What about the static ropes like the BD 6.0 static. I know some folks and guides using it in the Rockies. Would this be similar to your second options you discuss?
No go for glacier travel and kind of depends on the rappels. The BD option falls in the category of rap/tag lines I mentioned in the vid but there's way better options (Petzl Pur'line).
@@MrScottWieland in a static, rappel only situation, yes absolutely! In a situation where you could potentially load it in a fall (like glacier travel or climbing) then the BD static is not sufficient
Nice video. What are your thoughts on skinny half options like the Beal Gully? More weight than the edilrid but rated for 6 falls. Also the Beal Escaper has caught my eye. I currently only bring a 9.2 single 60m and the escaper for full length rappels(when having technical climbing), having left the tag line behind.
It just comes down to the situation. A half is overkill if you're just rapping/glacier travel. I haven't looked specifically at the gully but if I'm on terrain that I could usually solo but with overhead or exposure, I'll go light and use the Edelrid. If the climbing is hard enough I'm actually concerned about protecting against a fall, I'll use a skinny single or doubled half ropes. The escaper is interesting but only works in specific situations. If the rap is free-hanging, great. If it's ever so slightly over a roll or on generally low angle terrain, it doesn't work (coming from experience of getting one stuck). So... Just depends!
Beal Escaper works brilliantly even in non vertical raps. Of course it can get stuck if you’re unlucky, but so can any rope. I’ve used the Escaper in lots of different situations, never failed me.
Around 21:30, could you just wrap the line around the rock and rappel on the rope without the sling? Just like you would do on a tree. Once your done you pull the rope down and leave nothing up there. Would the rock damage the rope too much when you pull on it? Would there be ropes that would be better suited to doing it without the sling in this situation? Thanks!
You could but the rock had a bit of a sharp/rough edge. It would have made it potentially pretty difficult to pull. I’d rather leave a bit of cord and be sure that the rope will come down.
@@skiericcarter Hello Eric, I have an other question. What would be the thinnest cordelette you would use to make an anchor, if you only use it to rappel from it. So you won't be climbing or falling on it. I use 8mm for tope roping, 7mm when I'm trad climbing. Could I go down to 6 or 5mm if I only use it as an anchor to rappel? Thanks.
There are absolutely much cheaper options out there. That's not so much the point of this video... But if you do go for a cheaper choice - at least get something dynamic - not a static line. A skinny twin or half is not very expensive and more versatile.
Great in depth explanation of every reason you would bring a rope on skis as well as what gear to use with which one.
The Grivel Scream is rated for 5-8mm ropes as a rappel/belay plate
Best ski mountaineering ropes video I’ve seen so far. Easy to understand for a more beginner level person. Nice work
Nice to have these rope compared. Thank you
The Grivel Scream is another option for a belay device, to be used with small diameter ropes.
Just a friendly reminder, Grivel just launched the Scream belay device. It is rated for use down to 5mm cords and up to 8mm, covering a super wide range of ropes and use cases when thinking about SkiMo. It’s a simple stitching plate/placcette, so it’s about as light and simple as these things get. And for like $30 a great deal
The ATC Alpine Guide is better than the Scream, even on 6mm ropes
@@elonquemattheson6151 I don’t own an BD ATC alpine guide.
Honestly it’s probably way bigger and more encumbering on the harness. Idk if it’s lighter or not.
For me the extra portability is a real bonus for me as my RAD Line is more for emergency use and having that kit be as small and handy as possible is a safety feature as in makes taking it along easier to accept.
I have tested and practiced with the device on my RAD Line kit. Works fine for me. The addition of a few lockers, two prusiks and a few runners allow me to have a full ascension and rope rappel kit. I’m happy.
@@macmurfy2jka It's about 10mm thicker than a Scream, but it works better.
Munter hitching directly onto a Plume HMS is even lighter and more compact, but it doesn't work as well. Everything's a tradeoff.
@@elonquemattheson6151 but the addition of the wire makes that not really true.
And about the Munter+Plume, I seriously disagree. The inability to ditch the device into a progress capture device while on rappeland doig so without coming off the rope, makes a Munter far inferior to either the Scream or ATC. And this doesn’t even take the rope twist issue into consideration.
I know you are playing Devil’s advocate here. And I would willingly concede that the ATC would be better for alpine climbing on 7-8mm double ropes and the like. For that, I would totally agree. But the biggest difference with the Scream vs the ATC Alpine is that the Scream works down to 5mm ropes. That means it works with Titan Powercord and others like it. Without getting fancy, I’m not sure the ATC would work here.
That easy use it important for me. Anytime I need to learn and apply new techniques, I worry that my far less savvy partners will be able to keep up. The less new I need to learn, the more easily I would be able to apply those old techniques in high stress situations.
At the end of the day it’s a placket. If used like any other placket, it works as expected. Done. It will never behave like a tuber, because it’s not a tuber. That’s okay.
@@macmurfy2jka You can snip off the wire if you want to make it more like the Scream. It's just there for retention, it's not functional while you're belaying. When you don't need the second carabiner like the Scream does, it ends up lighter and more compact.
People who have tested both on 5-6mm ropes all say that the Alpine Guide is more effective, even though it's technically not rated for them.
You can try it for yourself if you want, it's only $35 and functions similarly to the Scream. You don't have to try it, but it is good to have options.
Hi Eric, this is an oustanding overview. Thanks a lot for your insights and tips. Best of luck for a productive, fun and safe winter.
Fantastic video Eric! Thanks for sharing the experience! 😃
Thank you Eric, great video
Damn dude. Great video. Came to the many of the same conclusions after picking up the Petzl Rad 60m regarding the Reverso and number of your other points. Great to see the comparison with the other ropes. Keep the specific ski mountaineering videos coming.
Thanks for the informative video. Great example videos overlaid as well!
Great video! You’ve got a very good “gear review” style. Keep em coming!
Bro please keep making these types of videos I thought that was super informative and you were really engaging keep it up man and also thank you
👊 right on!
Outstanding video, thanks for posting!
You had me at “more food”.
bomber video. looking to pick stuff up for next season while off-season sales are on. Thanks for the great info mate
Lot of great information. Thanks for sharing
Great timing - I was just researching this
First and foremost, thank you for the video and sharing your knowledge. I have a ski culture question - in much the same way people often choose the least expensive (and shortest range) transceiver and smallest shovel to save money and weight, how do you manage people who only want to bring (or only have) a 30m RAD line when a RAP line is better suited to the shared objective? Do you ask them to purchase the appropriate equipment to be shared between you? Do you purchase a 60m RAP line yourself and ask them to carry it since they didn’t have to commit financially? Do you find better tour partners who are more willing to spend the money on the appropriate equipment?
- thank you
Bonus question 1 - what length rope do you recommend as a first purchase?
Bonus question 2 - what about the Black Diamond ATC Alpine Guide? It’s rated at 6.9-9mm which is quite close.
I think when we're debating ultra-niche hyperstatic ropes, we've hopefully moved past buying the cheapest option. For those people, there's always the 30m 8mm half rope that you can get for like $30. I generally have a spare to loan out to partners if they don't have one but almost always, a partner will see the value of the higher quality and then go buy their own. At this point, most of my partners are pretty dialled so it's a non issue.
BQ1 - 30 is the minimum for sure. Better value and versatility with a 60m. You can always cut it in half as you said and share with a friend!
BQ2 - 100% would work. I don't like that BD has a parent company that makes guns and stuff so I try to avoid spending money there. Wouldn't fault anyone for it though!
Really good video Eric!
Excellent video. Perfect and covered everything.
Great video. Try AustriAlpin Nemo (Ø6mm) or/and Grivel Scream Belayer (Ø5-8mm).
I haven’t seen the Nemo but I have the scream and it’s perfect!
Great video!! Thanks!!
Awesome video!, Thanks for sharing such important information.
Great video!
Awesome video! Best video I've seen on ski mountaineering
Great video! Why can't "tag lines" (such as the Petzl Pur line) be used for glacier travel?
@3k8d - in some cases the breaking strength is much lower on tag lines and just insufficient. Just as important though is that tag lines are static and taking a fall, on rock or into a crevasse, on a static rope is really dangerous.
amazing video
You mentioned the RAD line is good for glacier travel, but NOT for using a fixed anchor over a crevasse snow bridge. Would you take two ropes then?
It depends on the situation. If you expected extensive fixed anchor belaying, a half rope would be more appropriate. Ideally though, you’d just use a dynamic belay with the RAD line (standard glacier travel mode tied together) with people moving together to approach the bridge.
haha the b roll is so epic.
great info Eric! much appreciated
Nice thanks 🙏🏻
Hello, great video! Since maybe rappeling is the most often situation during ski mountaineering, could you maybe list some instructions or videos which you find usefull? Btw, great job with this one, learned a lot as a beginner!
Check out mark smileys mountain sense online Course - he covers rappelling for skimo in detail!
Great video! Would you trust the rad line or edelrid cords for a fully freehanging rappel where all of your weight is on the rope (as opposed to just walking backwards down a steep slope where a significant part of your weight is still on the slope itself)? Or in that scenario would you only use that as a tagline with a thicker rope for the rappel itself?
For sure - all these lines are rated for rappel including a full overhanging rappel. No problems there.
@@skiericcarter Cool, thanks for the reply!
Another silly question but... if tying into the (doubled up) edelrid line for an emergency lead, would you have the climber tie into the end with the two loose strands (like a twin/half rope) or into the loop at the middle marker (and in this case, what knot would you use on that end)? Cheers!
@@skiericcarter and @fallineJP same question as above, after viewing this video, it seems like an Edelrid Rap Line Protect Pro would be ideal for climbing around me. Mostly for rappels, but able to lead climbs in a pinch when I need it.
Would you use a 60m and double the rope on lead, and tie into the loose ends? or at the midway mark with butterfly knot or something?
or would you take two 30mm ropes like a double rope?
Thanks!
@@dfishdesign531185 yeah - the RAD is not suitable for climbing so that makes it pretty simple. Edelrid RLP is technically rated for ascent but I’d still use it pretty cautiously. Low angle snow slopes or alpine terrain where fall forces are low and friction helps, yep. Super steep or around sharp edges, maybe not.
If you have a 60, you can have one person girth hitch to the middle of the rope (pass a bight through their belay loop and then step through it) with the other ties to both ends. If you cut it in half and have 2x 30m that’s definitely better for glacier travel and you can both tie to both ends.
I appreciated stuff sacks too
Most important point!
Thanks for the info. I enjoyed listening to it. What about the static ropes like the BD 6.0 static. I know some folks and guides using it in the Rockies. Would this be similar to your second options you discuss?
No go for glacier travel and kind of depends on the rappels. The BD option falls in the category of rap/tag lines I mentioned in the vid but there's way better options (Petzl Pur'line).
@@skiericcarter BD 6.0 static. How about chairlift self-evac? Used only for that situation?
@@MrScottWieland in a static, rappel only situation, yes absolutely! In a situation where you could potentially load it in a fall (like glacier travel or climbing) then the BD static is not sufficient
Nice video. What are your thoughts on skinny half options like the Beal Gully? More weight than the edilrid but rated for 6 falls. Also the Beal Escaper has caught my eye. I currently only bring a 9.2 single 60m and the escaper for full length rappels(when having technical climbing), having left the tag line behind.
It just comes down to the situation. A half is overkill if you're just rapping/glacier travel. I haven't looked specifically at the gully but if I'm on terrain that I could usually solo but with overhead or exposure, I'll go light and use the Edelrid. If the climbing is hard enough I'm actually concerned about protecting against a fall, I'll use a skinny single or doubled half ropes.
The escaper is interesting but only works in specific situations. If the rap is free-hanging, great. If it's ever so slightly over a roll or on generally low angle terrain, it doesn't work (coming from experience of getting one stuck).
So... Just depends!
Beal Escaper works brilliantly even in non vertical raps. Of course it can get stuck if you’re unlucky, but so can any rope. I’ve used the Escaper in lots of different situations, never failed me.
Around 21:30, could you just wrap the line around the rock and rappel on the rope without the sling? Just like you would do on a tree. Once your done you pull the rope down and leave nothing up there. Would the rock damage the rope too much when you pull on it? Would there be ropes that would be better suited to doing it without the sling in this situation? Thanks!
You could but the rock had a bit of a sharp/rough edge. It would have made it potentially pretty difficult to pull. I’d rather leave a bit of cord and be sure that the rope will come down.
@@skiericcarter Makes perfect sense!
@@skiericcarter Hello Eric, I have an other question. What would be the thinnest cordelette you would use to make an anchor, if you only use it to rappel from it. So you won't be climbing or falling on it. I use 8mm for tope roping, 7mm when I'm trad climbing. Could I go down to 6 or 5mm if I only use it as an anchor to rappel? Thanks.
Nice video! What base-/midlayer model is that? Looks comfy!
Fortrez Hoody! Super comfortable!
What diameter Prussic cord backup would you recommend?
5mm seems to work fine for me. Whatever you get, test first.
by a dry static 60m and cut it in half and you get 2 30m ropes for the price of less than 1 of any of the ropes mentioned...
There are absolutely much cheaper options out there. That's not so much the point of this video... But if you do go for a cheaper choice - at least get something dynamic - not a static line. A skinny twin or half is not very expensive and more versatile.