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Truthfully when it comes to static energy storage, Lithium should not be in the picture in favour of Sodium and Potassium ion, Redox flow batteries, molten salts, thermal salt silos, etc.
Stop 🛑 talking about batteries 🔋 we need under sea 🌊 water power cable that go from Australia 🇦🇺 Japan 🇯🇵 United States 🇺🇸 Britain France 🇫🇷 and Spain 🇪🇸 we would need a small amount of batteries 🔋 and a large amount of Solar 100% in all the countries as sun ☀️ set sun rises in some place in the world 🌎
@undecidedMF I hate these kind of videos. hyping up to the question too many times and diverting to another tangent each time and also to insert the shameless plug..
Cobalt doesn’t come from Africa in spite of the terrible working conditions. It is predominantly mined there BECAUSE of those conditions. Many countries including Canada have access to as much cobalt but safety restrictions and much higher wages make African sources much more lucrative. In fact, there is a mining town in Canada named Cobalt after this and other rare earths that used to be mined there. The resources still exist. It’s just cheaper to dig elsewhere.
Canada has by far the largest oil reserve in the world but is like 5th in oil production despite having the USA as a neighbor being able to pipe the oil down there and fuel the industry of two big economies. It's actually ridiculous how little Canada is utilizing it's resources it should be one of the richest countries in the world. Instead the citizens can't even buy groceries lol.
The US is a net exporter now, so Canada would do better to export elsewhere. But if tar sands are included, they are likely more expensive than most other options
Point of clarification: Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited was created by BMW in 1998 and is completely unaffiliated with Rolls-Royce PLC, the owner of Rolls-Royce Power Systems and the MTU brand. Rolls-Royce hasn't made cars since its bankruptcy in 1971. BMW licences the brand and logo, but the cars share no lineage with the cars made prior to Rolls-Royce's bankruptcy.
The car lineage is via Bentley. The Crewe factory has been making cars since 1946 and continues to do so, even though it is now owned by VW. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley_Crewe
Even companies with traceable lineages have evolved to treat the automobiles they produce as a side effect to generating revenue from subscription services. We have BMW attempting to coerce customers to pay for heated seats, or GMC pushing Onstar, or Mercedes-Benz hawking driver assistance, all the while selling driver data.
@@catsupchutneyWe’re getting side tracked, but: 1. Capitalist companies didn’t suddenly start following capitalist ideas. They’ve always been money first, because without money they fail. 2. BMW trialed heated seats as a subscription in exactly one country based on user feedback. The trial didn’t pan out, and they canceled all roll outs. 3. Economics of scale have meant that features are often technically included in a car, and not turned on. You (or the original owner) may not have optioned heated seats, but the seat may have the coils. Find a button and attach it to the wires, and voila! Heated seats!
I realize this sounds a bit sappy, but listening to your content always gives me hope that one day, humanity will find a way to balance our energy needs while maintaining environmental stewardship. These advances aren't game changers but necessary steps toward better technology. Another outstanding job. Thank you, Matt!
of course, we will reach that point. so long as government don't ruin the economy by trying to force energy system down a path before the technology is ready for it to be viable. They've already shown they are willing to do it with all the electric car mandates that are never going to be met.
This is part of it, but the only way to balance the energy needs and taking care of the environment is human-centered economic degrowth. Otherwise, we would need so much renewables with the continuous growth of energy demand inherent to the current system that we will demise much of ecosystems through critical minerals mining and energy farms.
People are complaining that battery cell tech never makes it to market. It can take years to get from the lab to commercial penetration. 1996: John Goodenough and his team at the University of Texas at Austin discovered the LFP cathode material. Pattent was granted in 1999. The global LFP share increased to 34% in 2022. November 2023, LFP batteries captured 31% of the passenger EV battery market. The forecast is to reach 39% by 2024. In China, LFP batteries now make up over 50% of the EV battery market in GWh term. Interest in battery cells has increased somewhat and perhaps that will accelerate the required time.
Every company offers shorter warranties when they can because of misuse and unforseen circumstances. They also know batteries/systems will be different in 10yrs and don't wanna have to keep repair parts forever
@@veganpotterthevegan Every company in the EU has to keep spare parts for at least 7 years after the last sale, so anything less than that is lack of confidence in the product.
You beat me to this comment. I was thinking the same and wouldn't put it past companies to do this. I don't think Matt mentioned what the degradation would normally be in 5 years. If it's only like 5-10%, you just make the batteries a little bigger and hide their extra capacity as headroom to make up for the degradation.
They are probably achieving having no capacity degradation in the first 5 years by cheating a little. And the 15000 cycles quoted hints at exactly that. The capacity degradation of LFPs over 5000 full cycles should be about 20%. However, if you make the capacity 20% larger to start with but never allow each cell to charge to more than about 85% then you should only see about 5% capacity degradation over 5000 cycles. So after 15000 cycles, or 5 years, you should effectively see no actual degradation on the quoted capacity.
It should be noted that LFP cells already easily outlast any power electronics associated with them and have for a long time. So, this is good progress, but it isn't earth-shattering. Also, as with most ESS manufacturers, CATL likely builds some buffer room in their capacity guarantees verses the actual capacity of their cells. Their ESS systems (and certainly their marketing) are likely programmed only to the capacity guarantee. The cells probably do degrade (but LFP degrades very slowly anyway)... but its hidden for a time by the buffer. In anycase, this is almost a moot point. LFP cells have such low degradation that the actual cycling is almost irrelevant... Calendar aging does more damage. And as I've mentioned several times, the power electronics associated with these packs will fail long, long before the cells do. Even with regular LFP cells. As a maintenance item, the power electronics represent a much bigger fish. -Matt
I'm a BESS engineer working with all of these systems mentioned in the video and many more. I'm under NDA for all of these so can't say anything that's not public but all I can say there is a lot coming and we are just at the start.
Well, NDA notwithstanding, can you give us some little clues. Like .. When will we see some competition to T's Powerwall-3? Same spec, cheaper? When will Na hit the retail market for home microgrid?
@@jonb5493 Haha, you could get sued for breaking an NDA, but here's something public. I usually work with large-scale systems, but I know LG is coming out with a smaller wall battery that uses the same LFP cell as their large-scale storage.
It's interesting how fast things move. While solid state seems like the ultimate way to achieve potential airplanes, etc on electric, I feel like sodium ion is going to be the biggest growth area soon. Natron Energy is building a 2nd plant in the USA and while it may not work well for cars yet, the storage capacity and price seems like a win win for everyone. Though I have a few LFP cells for a home DIY battery, I am now hoping the salt battery cells start showing up to build longer lasting storage. That Natron's cells supposedly do 50,000 cycles and full charge in 12 minutes is damn impressive. Thats a lifetime battery right now for most who could buy one (though I dont think they are for homes yet). I could see however if they can increase the capacity without weight in the next couple years, we could see affordable 25K EVs with 500+ mile ranges.. maybe not 0 to 60 in 4 seconds or so.. but I would argue most people would want a 500 to 1000 mile range on a 12 min charge over a couple seconds faster to 60mph. Especially if it could also last 20,000 to 50,000 cycles making it a 100 year+ battery.
IF EVs are going to be able to get 500+ miles, in any weather, without degrading, in about 2 minutes.... I'll just wait a couple more years for that then and keep my gas car meanwhile which already does all this.
Somewhat, in the case of a fuel-cell such water self assembly needs a little helping hand from a platinum catalyst to break gasseous dihydrogen into hydrogen to help create water by reaction with oxygen.
15k cycles/(365 cycles/day)=41 years, no degradation in the first 5 years means nothing. Also, there's no such thing as zero degradation. You just provide more over provisioning and by the time it degrades to its nominal value, the outside world sees zero degradation. Also, 15k cycles is not absurd even using existing technology. A 2k cycle rated cell (at 100% cycle depth to 80% capacity) can cycle 15k easily at 70% cycle depth at 50% remaining capacity and 2x the internal resistance (still quite useful for grid level storage). CATL did make technical breakthroughs, but the marketing material is certainly over-hyping them.
@@bskull3232Yeah, I don't see the hype for "zero" degradation. It could be nice, but not the deciding factor. LFPs can already last more than a decade with minimal degradation and it's not like they stop working past the rated cycles. Just like with solar panels. Price reductions are far more impactful. You could probably buy better batteries at less than half the price before the end of its rated cycles.
I my not be the first with this but - isn't the simple way to give customers no degradation this: Oversize the battery pack and allow a large buffer when new, and gradually reduce the buffer electronically as the cells degrade like every other cell does? At first you give the user 85% of the true total capacity, and after 5 years you give them 95% of the lower (by then) true capacity.
I think the biggest advancement would be an aftermarket solution to use a Tesla car. They are dirt cheap used for huge capacity. Just need the interface with your home electric grid.
@@jamesvandamme7786 I might not have an engineering degree, but I see a solution to this where you don't. I'm pretty sure you are assuming that someone won't disassemble the battery. If it's a Tesla car that's no longer useful (or more likely, that is getting you laughed at in public due to it's link with Elon), then you have a lot of components that make up a car, but can make up something else with some effort. Take apart the battery. The battery is made of a great many individual cells, and the idea with disassembling the battery is to liberate the cells and reassemble them into some number of series strings of cells that total up to no greater than 48v at full charge for any single series string. Commercial off-the-shelf pure-sine-wave inverters are able to accept that 48V input voltage and output more than enough 120/240v electrical power to support a typical American home. The only sticking point, and the part where your MSEE would come in handy, is that to ensure the safety of and prevent damage to the battery bank, a BMS and charging solution different from the one in the "standard" Tesla would be needed, due to the different electrical configuration of the battery cells. Since I have no such electrical engineering degree, I'd be looking for something that meets my needs that is available off-the-shelf, but a bespoke solution would be more easily tailored to fit the specific needs of the rearranged Tesla battery pack. What does all this accomplish? Well, at the very least, as far as the IEEE is concerned a battery pack that is 48v max is still "low voltage". So technically the only time I would be required to "mess with high voltage" would be when I disconnected and took apart the battery pack. I would of course be wearing proper PPE while I do that, I want to keep my eyes safe from the light produced by an electric arc (by not making one and by having PPE to protect my eyes if one DOES happen), and I want to stay alive (by wearing the properly rated rubber electrical gloves, I can pay for the right ones if it means I get to live despite maybe making a mistake, as humans do).
@@jamesvandamme7786 I might not have an engineering degree, but I see a solution to this where you don't. I'm pretty sure you are assuming that someone won't disassemble the battery. If it's a Tesla car that's no longer useful (or more likely, that is getting you laughed at in public due to it's link with Elon), then you have a lot of components that make up a car, but can make up something else with some effort. Take apart the battery. The battery is made of a great many individual cells, and the idea with disassembling the battery is to liberate the cells and reassemble them into some number of series strings of cells that total up to no greater than 48v at full charge for any single series string. Commercial off-the-shelf pure-sine-wave inverters are able to accept that 48V input voltage and output more than enough 120/240v electrical power to support a typical American home. The only sticking point, and the part where your MSEE would come in handy, is that to ensure the safety of and prevent damage to the battery bank, a BMS and charging solution different from the one in the "standard" Tesla would be needed, due to the different electrical configuration of the battery cells. Since I have no such electrical engineering degree, I'd be looking for something that meets my needs that is available off-the-shelf, but a bespoke solution would be more easily tailored to fit the specific needs of the rearranged Tesla battery pack. What does all this accomplish? Well, at the very least, as far as the IEEE is concerned a battery pack that is 48v max is still "low voltage". So technically the only time I would be required to "mess with high voltage" would be when I disconnected and took apart the battery pack. I would of course be wearing proper PPE while I do that, I want to keep my eyes safe from the light produced by an electric arc (by not making one and by having PPE to protect my eyes if one DOES happen), and I want to stay alive (by wearing the properly rated rubber electrical gloves, I can pay for the right ones if it means I get to live despite maybe making a mistake, as humans do).
18.000 people working in the R&D department of CATL, including 250 PhDs... let's expect quite fast quite many innovations for higher efficiencies, longer lifetimes, less material use, and lower costs
I use LFP battery from Aliexpress in my scooter, it's large and heavy ah hell (26kg), but the range(200km) is so worth it. It's bit overkill for city riding, but saves my ass when i forget to charge it.
Around 700eur including shipping if i remember correctly. It was a 60v 70Ah battery from "GTK" brand, they also go by the name "Shenzhen Fuxiang Technology" It took around 5 months to arrive.
@@alimfuzzy It's actually LFP, i checked the voltage, so it's safe. Either way i charge it in my storage shed since it's not practical to lug a 26kg box to 4th story apartmant without elevator.
They mean what they say, and take the place of polysyllabic terminologies. So learn them, and use them. I worked in military electronics research, and it reduced Powerpoint presentations by half.
It says no degredation for the first 5 years. Which begs the question...why 5 years? What happens after 5 years? Is it better than the edison battery as far as longevity goes?
Presumably they only tested to a certain number of cycles before they stopped their testing. Then the cycle counts were used to establish a time period for decay. Anyways at some point they just shut down the test apparatus.
The TENER battery's five-year no-degradation promise is fascinating! It's great to see such innovations tackling long-standing issues in battery tech. What other applications do you foresee for this technology?
Check out Natron Energy's Sodium Ion battery solutions. They're supposedly shipping now. Rated for >50,000 cycles. They're marketed to industrial applications where they'd cycle multiple times per day, but if you apply it in a home solar energy storage solution, 50k once-daily cycles = 137 years! I'd say that's long enough for me!
Sodium modules replacing LFP modules for even more cost savings? Are the individual modules in the systems using a standard size module so it’s easy to swap the modules out as chemistries improve? 5 years is a LONG time in the battery chemistry market!
The biggest problem with Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries I've found is they REALLY don't like cold temperatures...every LIP battery I've looked at recently holds much more power than a standard Lead Acid battery of equal physical size, but all of them list the cut-off Temperature below which they will no longer accept a Charge is 4 C (39.2 F)...considering I live in Southern Ontario and it tends to be at or below 4 C from Late Sept. to Mid April, it means they're worthless to me...
@@rossallen738 True but the space in the case the heaters take reduces capacity and then the heaters themselves reduce apparent capacity to the point that they are effectively lead acid batteries in terms of actual sub-zero capacity, not worth it for powering my Mobility Scooter in the winter...
Reminds me of the mid-70s and the oil crisis when Popular Science had several articles about the latest in batteries for the upcoming surge in EVs. For cars, rapid recharge was right up there with energy density. The two “front-runners” I remember were one using molten sulphur as the electrolyte - a bit of a concern in an accident - and an “air-aluminum” based setup. This latter one “consumed” aluminum sheets so recharge just required replacing the sheets and removing the oxide for electrolysis back to aluminum but was extremely sensitive to CO2 in the air which was already too high back then
Given that ESSs are principally there to get more use out of renewables, how many charge/discharge cycles per day are they expected to provide? I would have thought one or two would be all that is required, solar charges the ESS during the day and discharges at night. On that basis 15,000 cycles would last for 41 years without degradation! 5 years without degradation suggests 8 cycles or more per day. Thanks Matt for another brilliant video.
@@Iamdebugthat's insane, I live in subtropical Australia and I don't think I've ever used more than 60kWh in a day with ducted aircon. I also run a server stack that consumes a few hundred watts 24/7, but during the day out solar easily covers it so I'm not bothered.
LFP cells degradation is already so low for many use cases that the reduced degradation claimed (to be confirmed by how much) for CATL's product might not make that much of a difference in practice. The first thing that came to mind was that they'd guarantee a lack of degradation for 5 years is a capacity buffer. And it's probably what it will be anyway if they really want to guarantee NO degradation.
There are a couple of batteries that should have unlimited life. Both have solved the dendrite problem. There is the Ambri liquid metal battery with three liquid horizontal layers. They us Calcium, antimony and a salt inbetween. All liquid so not dendrites. The second is the ZnBr battery from Redflow. It plates Zn onto horizontal shelves when charging and the Zn is removed during discharge. You make sure to completely discharge the batterie(s) from time to time which dissolves the Zn and hence any dendrites.
My principle in life is to live as you go with what technology is offering at that point in time. We currently have 2 fully battery EVs and enjoying them. If we live long enough and something else comes up, we go with the flow. It just seems like battery tech is changing daily and I can't even catch up what's out there anymore. As long as they are cheap and last 20 years, I'm good. Everything else is a bonus.
I just read that iron-air battery (reversible rust Battery) are being used as storage by Form Energy in Minnesota. It is said that solar connected to these batteries can be run a few days, making solar power always available. These iron-air batteries aren't nearly as efficient as LFP batteries; and I think they are currently more expensive. They are also bulkier that LFP batteries, so not optimal for automotive use. But what a concept!
The Rolls Royce you talk about in the video is a completely separate company from the car manufacturer. Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited is owned by BMW. Rolls-Royce Holdings plc is a British multinational aerospace and defence company that is the world's second-largest maker of aircraft engines and has major businesses in the marine propulsion and energy sectors. The company also leads a consortium to build small nuclear reactors in the UK.
i am excited for all the new tricks for batteries and such.. I just hope they are not cheating. what i mean by cheating is making a battery 20% larger than they list and making it software limited so it only charges to the limit so as it degrades it still had rated capacity even if it decades.
Thank you Matt but the real questions to ask are : after the 5 years what is the balance of degradation for the following 5 years, expecting a life span of ??? It all boils down to the ROI. Lifespan is critical, recyclable etc many questions left unanswered.
Good points. On the recycling front these absolutely should be recyclable. There's a lot of really interesting movement in the battery recycling business too (LiCycle, Redwood Materials, Recyclico, etc.).
I've had a LiFePo4 battery in my motorcycle for at least half a decade or longer, I forget when I bought it tbh. It's still going strong, in spite of annual multi-month winter storage. This is also the battery tech I'd use in a house battery (that I don't have yet).
Hey Matt. 2 points. What ever happened to the flow battery solution for residential storage? Point 2. I already have a battery in my EV. Why isn’t anyone focusing on a simple EVSE/ V2G (vehicle to grid) solution. These companies both vehicle and EVSE makers are dogging any real innovation in this area. I know, some have a plug for V2G, but seriously that’s about it. A soccer mom or dad should be able to plug in a single smart cable and deal with getting dinner on rather than messing around with settings and home storage solutions not to mention spending the tuition money on something both redundant and a fraction of the size of the storage already existing in their EV. Perhaps there’s more to it but frankly and nothing personal, many people want to participate in the advances in technology without having to become energy geeks. Thanks for your contributions.
I think having the EV battery as a backup power source for the home makes a lot of sense for an emergency battery. Perfect for people that don't care to separate themselves from the grid in some meaningful way. But there is the issue that what if your house needs power while you are out of the house and driving your EV somewhere? If you need power while you're gone, it becomes very inconvenient if you then have to avoid using your car just because it is your backup power.
Using your car’s battery as home energy storage frequently/continuously will degrade the vehicle’s battery more quickly- reducing range, resell value, available range when you need it, etc. Seems better for an emergency and plugging it in based on your own decision vs everyday usage.
The fact we still need more batteries just proves my point, that while power generation still need to increase, it doesnt have to increase what coal and other power sectors were trying to say that we needed to hit. The fact is we WASTE a ton of power everyday to nothing. Now that we have some way to store it we are seeing the need for power generation is actually dropping thus we're hitting to a point where renewables are even able to keep up with the base load power now just from a few hours of the day in the sun. Also while I loves to see more LFP - NA still to me seems like the clear winner when it comes to grid and home base power needs. If LFP is already doing this much work, cant wait to see what hybrid NALFP brings or even just raw NA (both sides of the battery) can bring next in terms of cost.
This is the thing. If we create a smart electric grid, everyone's electric car could be that dynamic storage. Charge them when there is excess, use the car batteries power for high demands. With it being smart, you can program your car to give or take as much as you need.
Great video! I never get tired of battery videos. I don't use enough electricity to get solar plus the grid here is from hydro power so my distant "Backwoods" dreams of an off grid system seem silly now.😊
Battery full to Battery empty to battery full is a cycle. So, many cycles can occur in a day, it just depends on how fast you empty and refill your batts. The main claim is ~5 years without any battery degradation. If true, fantastic.
PLEASE get the citizens of Vancouver to adopt heat pumps. Air conditioners are few and far between there, and our VRBO didn’t have one. We visited last month, and we baked for a week in an area which is supposed to be temperate. The whole city looked parched. I grew up there, and was used to frequent rain and lush greenery. Not this summer.
@@marcsimmonds5483 I would be happy with that too, across the country The windows in this place also didn’t open much more than an inch, so it was hot overnight. And the grass almost everywhere was brown. All in all, not the same Vancouver I grew up in.
I usually listen to video in English but today I heard it in Hindi and being an ai voice apart from wrong numbers else was really good this will help people to break specific language barrier. Cheers
In a few years it's gonna seem crazy that we ever used something so flammable as lithium for this. You should do a video on Eos and their Z3 cubes. Non-flammable American-made zinc batteries.
I wish they could make batteries for small electronics that could handle a lot of cycles. My earbuds died again because the batteries have had too many cycles in less than 2 years. There goes another $300.
China beats US in battery again? No way, impossible!!! And China beats US of A in solar, winds and nuclear energy?? Chinese are absolutely lying!!! And Chinese never killed any astronauts and built its own space station?? This MUST be CGI!
Just ask S. Korea...they just had multiple EV battery fires incidents from both a battery manufacturing plant (Chinese owned) and vehicles using batteries sourced from China.
My only question is, sure, it works flawlessly for the first 5 years.... after that does it fall completely apart? Does it degrade at the normal rate after that? What's the tradeoff?
I am guessing no. its just 5 years before there is any degradation. Even if it's the "normal rates," you are going to get another 5 years before there is any noticeable reduction in storage. If you plan on a 10% overhead, you can get 20 years before you start needed to replace, or add more cells to the system.
@spencer9392 if it's actually 5yrs with no degradation after so many cycles, it may have 10% degradation after 20yrs for all we know. But until these cells actually age under heavy use, we won't know. Lab tests for 5yrs of use over 1yr isn't gonna be the same thing as thousands of people using these batteries for 5yrs.
The cabinets are similar to what I had been helping manufacturer at Torus. They just opened a facility in salt lake to start their production line. Though they have been also making flywheels.
I have been looking into the new Tesla Aluminum Ion battery. This is supposed to last about 200 years with (if I remember correctly) and 50,000 cycles. It might be a good idea to at least look into this technology. If it is all true then an electric could go around 2000 miles between charges and is about 1/4 the cost of Lithium Ion batteries. Plus It is very safe and not subject to thermal run-away. Oh and last but least it can charge in only 10 minutes!
A few percentage points in degradation in years 0-5 can be easily compensated for by just making the battery a bit larger and heavier. For instance, if existing tech would result in 6% degradation after 5 years, just make the battery 6% larger to compensate, problem solved. What would make me more impressed about the technology is if it increases the total lifespan of the battery, allowing it to continue to be usable beyond 10 years or 20 years. That would be real progress.
LFP can already be cycled at 80% DoD once per day and still have 80% usable capacity after ~15 years. Which is still plenty useful. Calendar aging where it starts to really drop off its capacity is said to be at the 20-25 year mark. But there's not a lot of solid data there.
Bio-mimicry will be the future of our technological design! Hearing that we're starting to incorporate natural solutions to our energy problem is so exciting
On a different note, I have wondered if the oil companies didn’t push out the electric cars back in the early 20th century what technology of batteries would we have in the current day.
they would have gone bankrupt anyway. the technology around that field was too minimal it would have never made a viable product. its taken decades of other technology, and manufacturing processes to get to the point where we can begin to make batteries that are barely viable for vehicles that can compete against petroleum based fuel vehicles. I don't see any way it could have happened any way but how it did.
Wonder all you want. Battery automobiles have been around since Edison. No grand conspiracy required. The weight, fragility & battery degradation have always failed against ICE.
I have been on the fence adding energy storage to our Solar with the emerging battery tech. I think I'll be buying one of the new systems next year and hope it's everything we want it to be
Excuse me? A paper, in 2020, claiming it's a "surprise" that LFP degradation is lower than NMC? As far as I remember, this was "common knowledge" back then. If you didn't care about the lower energy density but needed higher cycle and calendar life, or some sub-zero charging capabilities, LFP was the way to go, with the bonus of less flammability. If you needed even more durability and could tolerate the even lower energy density, or needed to be able to charge in arctic temperatures, or needed some ridiculous current densities, go for LTO. Otherwise, Nickel-based anodes provide the highest energy densities, with the exact recipe providing the tradeoffs between energy, power density and longevity (and explosivity). LiPo-s provided the explosive power end along with the knowledge that flames were was a matter of "when", not "if". A123 went bankrupt 8 years before that, and had been resurrected as two other companies, and they made big headlines with their LFP batteries (both good and bad). The longer life of those compared to contemporary conventional "Li-Ion" family was always a big marketing point.
Love your videos, but struggling with conceptualizing what energy/power capabilities a mega watt or even kilowatt have. I’d love to see more analogies when talking about batter capacity. For example, “this is a 15kW battery, which could power --- for -- amount of time.”
Vanadium redox flow batteries are the way to go. They say it lasts 25 years, but that's just being conservative, it can be recycled indefinately. Non-toxic, no chance of catching fire and easily extensible.
.. but very expensive. I don't see where Vanadium competes against BESS consisting of Na for short-term and Fe (like Form Energy) for longer (even weeks).
@jonb5493 expensive, yes. But it is getting cheaper all the time. And still nothing beats it in longetivity. Initial high price and lower maintenance and no replacement costs. After 5-7 years, it's the cheapest alternative with the added bonus of less fire risk.
I'm not concerned about losing 10% of capacity over 5 years. I'm concerned about losing more than 50% over 20 years. I require long term, reliable storage for 11kwh & being able to access this at a rate of 3kwh.
15 kw's does NOT cover the avg us household for 2 days. with wood heat in the winter we still use 30 kw's a day. the summer is more like 50-60kw's a day. you released this an hour ago.
He might have got it the wrong way around, apparently the avg is 30kWh per day. That said, except for the depths of winter I can cover almost our entire energy budget for most of the year with our solar output, I figure about a 10-15kWh battery would let us almost completely go grid power free. We don't have gas or other, I'd probably want some more panels if I had an electric car.
Sounds like you're well above the average. Average home electricity usage is 30 kWh/day. But agreed that 10-15 kWh of battery wont cover a house for 2 days unless the homeowner is very frugal with their energy usage.
What would be a real game changer would be a small, cheap, modular plug&play home battery that you can install easily with a small capacity to begin with and then upgrade over time.
Is there any ESS that's using hydrogen for grid storage? It recently occurred to me that using renewables to create hydrogen via electrolysis could be a seriously effective way of storing energy, since I know that's one of the biggest hurdles there are.
No, theres some research, trial projects and industrial usage but no active scaled deployment of hydrogen storage compared to battery storage. The economics is against hydrogen in this case as batteries are cheaper (capital and operational costs), more effecient, take up less space and require less maintainence. Hydrogen is considered where there is a secondary use for the waste heat produced in the hydrogen generation, processing and conversion to electricty steps, such as industrial processes.
The long-term problem with LFPs for grid energy storage is that they are the most sensitive to the price of lithium per kilowatt hour. This means that their success will ultimately lead to their failure as they consume larger amounts of lithium per kilowatt hour in production if demand for them skyrockets globally, the price of lithium will also sky rocket making them a less and less economic investment as they succeed.
In theory as prices increase new lithium sources would be exploited bringing the price back down. Although in the consumer world prices never go down that isn't the case for commodities. This can be seen at your local scrap yard. The value of lithium today is already spurring the development of new lithium mines. Like the one in Nevada iirc.
Most forms of stationary storage need to last 15-25 years to make economic sense. If the short-term pause on degradation has any detrimental effect on long-term reliability, it may be moot.
@@drillerdev4624 Modular battery systems for maintainability will definitely become a necessity: I cannot imagine throwing away literal tons of batteries due to single failed cells in the whole unit being sustainable. We're still ~10 years away from seeing how well the first wave of mainstream EVs and their batteries will age into retirement. I'm apprehending a nightmare of EVs getting scrapped prematurely due to single-cell failures and the inability to service battery packs in a safe, reliable and cost-effective manner.
I was just doing some rough napkin math for a relative's house that wants to cut their power bill. A $12k DIY system has a payback of roughly 8 years just switching from a flat-rate plan to time-of-use + battery storage. Well within the longevity of an LFP system. Looking at ~15 years before they degrade down to 80% with current tech.
On cnevpost they say "Tener has a cycle life of more than 15,000, which is 1.7 times the current mainstream level, and will not decay in the first five years of its 20-year life expectancy, CATL said."
At night when the electrical power grid demand is low these Tesla battery packs are recharged. The benefit is your local power provider will need fewer power plants built to carry the heavy peak loads during the high power demand during the day. Resulting in a more efficient use of your power plants.
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Strategic public planning is key, always.
Truthfully when it comes to static energy storage, Lithium should not be in the picture in favour of Sodium and Potassium ion, Redox flow batteries, molten salts, thermal salt silos, etc.
Stop 🛑 talking about batteries 🔋 we need under sea 🌊 water power cable that go from Australia 🇦🇺 Japan 🇯🇵 United States 🇺🇸 Britain France 🇫🇷 and Spain 🇪🇸 we would need a small amount of batteries 🔋 and a large amount of Solar 100% in all the countries as sun ☀️ set sun rises in some place in the world 🌎
@undecidedMF I hate these kind of videos. hyping up to the question too many times and diverting to another tangent each time and also to insert the shameless plug..
جميل جدا،شكرا لك على اتاحة محتواك بلغات متعددة❤
Five years without degradation makes me think they should have named it the Fiver instead of the Tener.
pretty sure this battery will last 15 to 20+ years still can use and maybe half the capacity depending on how you use it ..
Probably couldn't because of Fiverr
Well, there is always some maniac trying to push dis/charge rate above 2C. Then the only thing I can say is: it is your warranty terms, not mine.
Fiver is already patented brand name.
@@leeo268 you can't "patent" a brand name.
Cobalt doesn’t come from Africa in spite of the terrible working conditions. It is predominantly mined there BECAUSE of those conditions.
Many countries including Canada have access to as much cobalt but safety restrictions and much higher wages make African sources much more lucrative.
In fact, there is a mining town in Canada named Cobalt after this and other rare earths that used to be mined there.
The resources still exist. It’s just cheaper to dig elsewhere.
Canada has by far the largest oil reserve in the world but is like 5th in oil production despite having the USA as a neighbor being able to pipe the oil down there and fuel the industry of two big economies. It's actually ridiculous how little Canada is utilizing it's resources it should be one of the richest countries in the world. Instead the citizens can't even buy groceries lol.
@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep we have no trouble buying groceries. We just have a lot of media telling us we can’t.
The checkout lines are no less busy.
@@robfj3414 Of course you do, the prices are through the roof.
The US is a net exporter now, so Canada would do better to export elsewhere. But if tar sands are included, they are likely more expensive than most other options
@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep we're all benefitting from Canada doing a bad job at exploiting their resources.
Point of clarification: Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited was created by BMW in 1998 and is completely unaffiliated with Rolls-Royce PLC, the owner of Rolls-Royce Power Systems and the MTU brand. Rolls-Royce hasn't made cars since its bankruptcy in 1971. BMW licences the brand and logo, but the cars share no lineage with the cars made prior to Rolls-Royce's bankruptcy.
The car lineage is via Bentley. The Crewe factory has been making cars since 1946 and continues to do so, even though it is now owned by VW.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley_Crewe
Even companies with traceable lineages have evolved to treat the automobiles they produce as a side effect to generating revenue from subscription services. We have BMW attempting to coerce customers to pay for heated seats, or GMC pushing Onstar, or Mercedes-Benz hawking driver assistance, all the while selling driver data.
@@catsupchutneyWe’re getting side tracked, but:
1. Capitalist companies didn’t suddenly start following capitalist ideas. They’ve always been money first, because without money they fail.
2. BMW trialed heated seats as a subscription in exactly one country based on user feedback. The trial didn’t pan out, and they canceled all roll outs.
3. Economics of scale have meant that features are often technically included in a car, and not turned on. You (or the original owner) may not have optioned heated seats, but the seat may have the coils. Find a button and attach it to the wires, and voila! Heated seats!
I realize this sounds a bit sappy, but listening to your content always gives me hope that one day, humanity will find a way to balance our energy needs while maintaining environmental stewardship. These advances aren't game changers but necessary steps toward better technology. Another outstanding job. Thank you, Matt!
of course, we will reach that point. so long as government don't ruin the economy by trying to force energy system down a path before the technology is ready for it to be viable. They've already shown they are willing to do it with all the electric car mandates that are never going to be met.
@@ge2719 The government is a completely corrupt inefficient system.
This is part of it, but the only way to balance the energy needs and taking care of the environment is human-centered economic degrowth. Otherwise, we would need so much renewables with the continuous growth of energy demand inherent to the current system that we will demise much of ecosystems through critical minerals mining and energy farms.
Definitely doable even without fusion.
Have you heard of Tony Seba?
Please tell me that I'm not the only one who reads CATL as "cattle".
People are complaining that battery cell tech never makes it to market.
It can take years to get from the lab to commercial penetration. 1996: John Goodenough and his team at the University of Texas at Austin discovered the LFP cathode material. Pattent was granted in 1999.
The global LFP share increased to 34% in 2022.
November 2023, LFP batteries captured 31% of the passenger EV battery market.
The forecast is to reach 39% by 2024.
In China, LFP batteries now make up over 50% of the EV battery market in GWh term.
Interest in battery cells has increased somewhat and perhaps that will accelerate the required time.
You left out that the LFP patents expired at the end of 2019. That's a big reason for the post-2020 surge in LFP batteries in the US.
I wonder if LMFP can take it to next level as that will have density between LFP and NMC batteries.
I will watch what CATL warranty is for those batteries, without such low degradation no one should be able to beat there's warranty.
Every company offers shorter warranties when they can because of misuse and unforseen circumstances. They also know batteries/systems will be different in 10yrs and don't wanna have to keep repair parts forever
*their
@@veganpotterthevegan Every company in the EU has to keep spare parts for at least 7 years after the last sale, so anything less than that is lack of confidence in the product.
VRFB have a 25 year life expectancy (thats a conservative value), with indefinite recyclability.
@@TheFPSPower sure but if they found that their batteries lasted 15yrs with a 98% success rate, they're still not going to offer a 15yr warranty.
7:31 "With their powers combine"...Missed opportunity to add Captain Planet reference
I think my kids would suggest that it was a doubly-missed opportunity to use a Power Rangers reference.
Every week, another "new" battery is changing the game
Every week for the last 30 years
But this is a good thing. Now and then one of them makes it to market and we win.
😂😂😂
Yeah ... because there's a ton of movement and evolution in the energy storage space right now. This isn't a static field.
@@UndecidedMFBattery industry plant confirmed. 🥸
I celebrate every new (potential) track that opens in the sustainable energy space. More innovation; more progress
5 years without degradation sounds like they under-rate the batteries and hide the degradation for 5 years
You beat me to this comment. I was thinking the same and wouldn't put it past companies to do this. I don't think Matt mentioned what the degradation would normally be in 5 years. If it's only like 5-10%, you just make the batteries a little bigger and hide their extra capacity as headroom to make up for the degradation.
@3:44 the energy STORAGE market almost tripled. Not energy market.
👍
They are probably achieving having no capacity degradation in the first 5 years by cheating a little. And the 15000 cycles quoted hints at exactly that. The capacity degradation of LFPs over 5000 full cycles should be about 20%. However, if you make the capacity 20% larger to start with but never allow each cell to charge to more than about 85% then you should only see about 5% capacity degradation over 5000 cycles. So after 15000 cycles, or 5 years, you should effectively see no actual degradation on the quoted capacity.
It should be noted that LFP cells already easily outlast any power electronics associated with them and have for a long time. So, this is good progress, but it isn't earth-shattering. Also, as with most ESS manufacturers, CATL likely builds some buffer room in their capacity guarantees verses the actual capacity of their cells. Their ESS systems (and certainly their marketing) are likely programmed only to the capacity guarantee. The cells probably do degrade (but LFP degrades very slowly anyway)... but its hidden for a time by the buffer.
In anycase, this is almost a moot point. LFP cells have such low degradation that the actual cycling is almost irrelevant... Calendar aging does more damage. And as I've mentioned several times, the power electronics associated with these packs will fail long, long before the cells do. Even with regular LFP cells. As a maintenance item, the power electronics represent a much bigger fish.
-Matt
I'm a BESS engineer working with all of these systems mentioned in the video and many more. I'm under NDA for all of these so can't say anything that's not public but all I can say there is a lot coming and we are just at the start.
Well, NDA notwithstanding, can you give us some little clues. Like ..
When will we see some competition to T's Powerwall-3? Same spec, cheaper?
When will Na hit the retail market for home microgrid?
@@jonb5493 Haha, you could get sued for breaking an NDA, but here's something public. I usually work with large-scale systems, but I know LG is coming out with a smaller wall battery that uses the same LFP cell as their large-scale storage.
How many video titles with game change batteries?
But you clicked, didn't you??
@@NeverTakeNoShortcuts just to write comment 🤷🏽♂️ again
@@e-bik3 those were game changing. This one is changing the game...
@@Brmckinney84 😅😂
It's interesting how fast things move. While solid state seems like the ultimate way to achieve potential airplanes, etc on electric, I feel like sodium ion is going to be the biggest growth area soon. Natron Energy is building a 2nd plant in the USA and while it may not work well for cars yet, the storage capacity and price seems like a win win for everyone. Though I have a few LFP cells for a home DIY battery, I am now hoping the salt battery cells start showing up to build longer lasting storage. That Natron's cells supposedly do 50,000 cycles and full charge in 12 minutes is damn impressive. Thats a lifetime battery right now for most who could buy one (though I dont think they are for homes yet). I could see however if they can increase the capacity without weight in the next couple years, we could see affordable 25K EVs with 500+ mile ranges.. maybe not 0 to 60 in 4 seconds or so.. but I would argue most people would want a 500 to 1000 mile range on a 12 min charge over a couple seconds faster to 60mph. Especially if it could also last 20,000 to 50,000 cycles making it a 100 year+ battery.
IF EVs are going to be able to get 500+ miles, in any weather, without degrading, in about 2 minutes.... I'll just wait a couple more years for that then and keep my gas car meanwhile which already does all this.
They should focus on sodium ion for stationary storage.
Who is they? And why should they put all eggs in one basket?
Or iron-air.
@@HarrythehunExactly multiple sources, decentralizing the power grid will make it more resilent.
or heat-based batteries. but yeah, leave the lithium for mobile applications
Different companies have different patents. CATL also has lithium overcapacity that they need to put to use.
Every time I see something like this I fell even better about choosing the LFP model of my car rather than the longer range NMC ones.
All these acronyms man I can't 😖
All these pieces of knowledge help guide the future successes. Oh, those marketing guys! Hydrogen and oxygen "self assemble" into H2O.
Somewhat, in the case of a fuel-cell such water self assembly needs a little helping hand from a platinum catalyst to break gasseous dihydrogen into hydrogen to help create water by reaction with oxygen.
That’s to distinguish between a catalytic reaction and a normal one.
For home storage, V2G is what I think will win. If Solar and ESS are distributed from homes, how much commercial storage will we need?
15k cycles/(365 cycles/day)=41 years, no degradation in the first 5 years means nothing.
Also, there's no such thing as zero degradation. You just provide more over provisioning and by the time it degrades to its nominal value, the outside world sees zero degradation.
Also, 15k cycles is not absurd even using existing technology. A 2k cycle rated cell (at 100% cycle depth to 80% capacity) can cycle 15k easily at 70% cycle depth at 50% remaining capacity and 2x the internal resistance (still quite useful for grid level storage).
CATL did make technical breakthroughs, but the marketing material is certainly over-hyping them.
@@bskull3232Yeah, I don't see the hype for "zero" degradation. It could be nice, but not the deciding factor. LFPs can already last more than a decade with minimal degradation and it's not like they stop working past the rated cycles. Just like with solar panels.
Price reductions are far more impactful. You could probably buy better batteries at less than half the price before the end of its rated cycles.
@bskull3232 - 15k cycles /(365 cycles/day) = 41 days. Did you mean 1 cycle/day?
@@openhorizon1162 My bad.
But what is its drop off curve after 5 years? The same as current ones, or does it take a dive.
I my not be the first with this but - isn't the simple way to give customers no degradation this: Oversize the battery pack and allow a large buffer when new, and gradually reduce the buffer electronically as the cells degrade like every other cell does? At first you give the user 85% of the true total capacity, and after 5 years you give them 95% of the lower (by then) true capacity.
I think the biggest advancement would be an aftermarket solution to use a Tesla car. They are dirt cheap used for huge capacity. Just need the interface with your home electric grid.
Fooling with high voltage is not a good DIY project. I'd do it, but I have an MSEE and many years' experience with lots higher voltages.
@@jamesvandamme7786
I might not have an engineering degree, but I see a solution to this where you don't.
I'm pretty sure you are assuming that someone won't disassemble the battery.
If it's a Tesla car that's no longer useful (or more likely, that is getting you laughed at in public due to it's link with Elon), then you have a lot of components that make up a car, but can make up something else with some effort.
Take apart the battery. The battery is made of a great many individual cells, and the idea with disassembling the battery is to liberate the cells and reassemble them into some number of series strings of cells that total up to no greater than 48v at full charge for any single series string.
Commercial off-the-shelf pure-sine-wave inverters are able to accept that 48V input voltage and output more than enough 120/240v electrical power to support a typical American home.
The only sticking point, and the part where your MSEE would come in handy, is that to ensure the safety of and prevent damage to the battery bank, a BMS and charging solution different from the one in the "standard" Tesla would be needed, due to the different electrical configuration of the battery cells.
Since I have no such electrical engineering degree, I'd be looking for something that meets my needs that is available off-the-shelf, but a bespoke solution would be more easily tailored to fit the specific needs of the rearranged Tesla battery pack.
What does all this accomplish? Well, at the very least, as far as the IEEE is concerned a battery pack that is 48v max is still "low voltage".
So technically the only time I would be required to "mess with high voltage" would be when I disconnected and took apart the battery pack.
I would of course be wearing proper PPE while I do that, I want to keep my eyes safe from the light produced by an electric arc (by not making one and by having PPE to protect my eyes if one DOES happen), and I want to stay alive (by wearing the properly rated rubber electrical gloves, I can pay for the right ones if it means I get to live despite maybe making a mistake, as humans do).
@@jamesvandamme7786
I might not have an engineering degree, but I see a solution to this where you don't.
I'm pretty sure you are assuming that someone won't disassemble the battery.
If it's a Tesla car that's no longer useful (or more likely, that is getting you laughed at in public due to it's link with Elon), then you have a lot of components that make up a car, but can make up something else with some effort.
Take apart the battery. The battery is made of a great many individual cells, and the idea with disassembling the battery is to liberate the cells and reassemble them into some number of series strings of cells that total up to no greater than 48v at full charge for any single series string.
Commercial off-the-shelf pure-sine-wave inverters are able to accept that 48V input voltage and output more than enough 120/240v electrical power to support a typical American home.
The only sticking point, and the part where your MSEE would come in handy, is that to ensure the safety of and prevent damage to the battery bank, a BMS and charging solution different from the one in the "standard" Tesla would be needed, due to the different electrical configuration of the battery cells.
Since I have no such electrical engineering degree, I'd be looking for something that meets my needs that is available off-the-shelf, but a bespoke solution would be more easily tailored to fit the specific needs of the rearranged Tesla battery pack.
What does all this accomplish? Well, at the very least, as far as the IEEE is concerned a battery pack that is 48v max is still "low voltage".
So technically the only time I would be required to "mess with high voltage" would be when I disconnected and took apart the battery pack.
I would of course be wearing proper PPE while I do that, I want to keep my eyes safe from the light produced by an electric arc (by not making one and by having PPE to protect my eyes if one DOES happen), and I want to stay alive (by wearing the properly rated rubber electrical gloves, I can pay for the right ones if it means I get to live despite maybe making a mistake, as humans do).
I have designed a coal power generator that fits perfectly into the boot of a Tesla
@@tilapiadave3234 "That's a great idea!" said no one.
For static electric storage with a long life, a flow cell can not be beat. It makes Lithium batteries seem like they maladapted for this utility.
18.000 people working in the R&D department of CATL, including 250 PhDs... let's expect quite fast quite many innovations for higher efficiencies, longer lifetimes, less material use, and lower costs
And precise control how long each product lasts...
Hopefully it doesn’t get in the way and degrade faster after the 5 years. Did they give degradation numbers for the longer term?
I use LFP battery from Aliexpress in my scooter, it's large and heavy ah hell (26kg), but the range(200km) is so worth it. It's bit overkill for city riding, but saves my ass when i forget to charge it.
How much did the whole battery system cost you?
Around 700eur including shipping if i remember correctly. It was a 60v 70Ah battery from "GTK" brand, they also go by the name "Shenzhen Fuxiang Technology"
It took around 5 months to arrive.
@@jovand6606 thankyou very much 😃
I'd be scared to charge that. Lithium batteries from ali express, I hope your insurance covers lithium fires.
@@alimfuzzy It's actually LFP, i checked the voltage, so it's safe. Either way i charge it in my storage shed since it's not practical to lug a 26kg box to 4th story apartmant without elevator.
This is acronym overload. Let's eventually give these technologies actual names.
They mean what they say, and take the place of polysyllabic terminologies. So learn them, and use them. I worked in military electronics research, and it reduced Powerpoint presentations by half.
That's the English language for you, people use all kinds of unnecessary acronyms in everyday life.
At least in this case it makes sense, tbh IMO frfr
How much would a 1Mwh Tener BESS cost? (Not the whole container) Somehow it's difficult to find pricing details for this one.
It says no degredation for the first 5 years.
Which begs the question...why 5 years? What happens after 5 years? Is it better than the edison battery as far as longevity goes?
Presumably they only tested to a certain number of cycles before they stopped their testing. Then the cycle counts were used to establish a time period for decay. Anyways at some point they just shut down the test apparatus.
Maybe they build in a buffer of 10% and that has worn away after 5 years?
if i can get a battery system for the house that will last easy 50 years im good with that
The TENER battery's five-year no-degradation promise is fascinating! It's great to see such innovations tackling long-standing issues in battery tech. What other applications do you foresee for this technology?
Check out Natron Energy's Sodium Ion battery solutions. They're supposedly shipping now. Rated for >50,000 cycles. They're marketed to industrial applications where they'd cycle multiple times per day, but if you apply it in a home solar energy storage solution, 50k once-daily cycles = 137 years! I'd say that's long enough for me!
Sodium modules replacing LFP modules for even more cost savings?
Are the individual modules in the systems using a standard size module so it’s easy to swap the modules out as chemistries improve? 5 years is a LONG time in the battery chemistry market!
The biggest problem with Lithium-Iron-Phosphate batteries I've found is they REALLY don't like cold temperatures...every LIP battery I've looked at recently holds much more power than a standard Lead Acid battery of equal physical size, but all of them list the cut-off Temperature below which they will no longer accept a Charge is 4 C (39.2 F)...considering I live in Southern Ontario and it tends to be at or below 4 C from Late Sept. to Mid April, it means they're worthless to me...
You can get batteries that have built in heaters for low temperatures, though the battery heater will use some of the battery power.
@@rossallen738 True but the space in the case the heaters take reduces capacity and then the heaters themselves reduce apparent capacity to the point that they are effectively lead acid batteries in terms of actual sub-zero capacity, not worth it for powering my Mobility Scooter in the winter...
Reminds me of the mid-70s and the oil crisis when Popular Science had several articles about the latest in batteries for the upcoming surge in EVs. For cars, rapid recharge was right up there with energy density. The two “front-runners” I remember were one using molten sulphur as the electrolyte - a bit of a concern in an accident - and an “air-aluminum” based setup. This latter one “consumed” aluminum sheets so recharge just required replacing the sheets and removing the oxide for electrolysis back to aluminum but was extremely sensitive to CO2 in the air which was already too high back then
Given that ESSs are principally there to get more use out of renewables, how many charge/discharge cycles per day are they expected to provide? I would have thought one or two would be all that is required, solar charges the ESS during the day and discharges at night. On that basis 15,000 cycles would last for 41 years without degradation! 5 years without degradation suggests 8 cycles or more per day. Thanks Matt for another brilliant video.
5 years and 15000 cycles are separate claims. 5 years, no degradation (1 cycle per day = approx 1500 cycles) and 15000 cycles total expected life.
Ive seen this headline before 😅
Coming from the largest battery producer in the world, or some useless murikan startup?
I thought cobalt was used to reduce thermal runaway
Man I wish I was the average US household being able to do 15kWh over two days.
3 kWh over a month, Norway. Cost = 153$
We use almost 100kw/day due to all of our tech and air conditioners. Those batteries are tiny but I'm sure will scale up
@@Iamdebugmaybe it is time to upgrade your electric appliances to energy efficient once and also start using heat pump.
@@mohammedabdulahi7894 these are brand new, the weather is that hot.
@@Iamdebugthat's insane, I live in subtropical Australia and I don't think I've ever used more than 60kWh in a day with ducted aircon. I also run a server stack that consumes a few hundred watts 24/7, but during the day out solar easily covers it so I'm not bothered.
I've been using LFP for power storage since 2019, what's taking so long?
Significantly safer than NMC and definitely longer cycle life.
LFP cells degradation is already so low for many use cases that the reduced degradation claimed (to be confirmed by how much) for CATL's product might not make that much of a difference in practice.
The first thing that came to mind was that they'd guarantee a lack of degradation for 5 years is a capacity buffer. And it's probably what it will be anyway if they really want to guarantee NO degradation.
Current VRLA lifespan is 5 years, have very little degradation over that period, and are completely recyclable and easily obtained and serviced.
There are a couple of batteries that should have unlimited life. Both have solved the dendrite problem. There is the Ambri liquid metal battery with three liquid horizontal layers. They us Calcium, antimony and a salt inbetween. All liquid so not dendrites. The second is the ZnBr battery from Redflow. It plates Zn onto horizontal shelves when charging and the Zn is removed during discharge. You make sure to completely discharge the batterie(s) from time to time which dissolves the Zn and hence any dendrites.
My principle in life is to live as you go with what technology is offering at that point in time. We currently have 2 fully battery EVs and enjoying them. If we live long enough and something else comes up, we go with the flow.
It just seems like battery tech is changing daily and I can't even catch up what's out there anymore. As long as they are cheap and last 20 years, I'm good. Everything else is a bonus.
Tesla Powerwall 3 uses LFP
Finally. I'm glad they moved to LFP for version 3.
@@UndecidedMF What happened to LTO? Insane longevity and temperature tolerance makes them the ideal choice for large scale stationary storage for me.
Unless this 5 year no degradation claim turns into a performance warranty, its only music..
I just read that iron-air battery (reversible rust Battery) are being used as storage by Form Energy in Minnesota. It is said that solar connected to these batteries can be run a few days, making solar power always available. These iron-air batteries aren't nearly as efficient as LFP batteries; and I think they are currently more expensive. They are also bulkier that LFP batteries, so not optimal for automotive use. But what a concept!
They are a form of redox battery. There are some vanadium and I think magnesium ones that were interesting to look into.
The Rolls Royce you talk about in the video is a completely separate company from the car manufacturer. Rolls-Royce Motor Cars Limited is owned by BMW. Rolls-Royce Holdings plc is a British multinational aerospace and defence company that is the world's second-largest maker of aircraft engines and has major businesses in the marine propulsion and energy sectors. The company also leads a consortium to build small nuclear reactors in the UK.
The issue with LFP’s is they are still dependent on Li.
i am excited for all the new tricks for batteries and such.. I just hope they are not cheating. what i mean by cheating is making a battery 20% larger than they list and making it software limited so it only charges to the limit so as it degrades it still had rated capacity even if it decades.
Battery immortality? First we need battery practicality. 😂
Ni, I don't think they will make a significant dent in grid stabilization.
I'm still waiting for the EnerVenue nickel-hydrogen batteries to make it to the market.
Keep waiting 😊
Thank you Matt but the real questions to ask are : after the 5 years what is the balance of degradation for the following 5 years, expecting a life span of ??? It all boils down to the ROI. Lifespan is critical, recyclable etc many questions left unanswered.
Good points. On the recycling front these absolutely should be recyclable. There's a lot of really interesting movement in the battery recycling business too (LiCycle, Redwood Materials, Recyclico, etc.).
I've had a LiFePo4 battery in my motorcycle for at least half a decade or longer, I forget when I bought it tbh. It's still going strong, in spite of annual multi-month winter storage. This is also the battery tech I'd use in a house battery (that I don't have yet).
Hey Matt. 2 points. What ever happened to the flow battery solution for residential storage? Point 2. I already have a battery in my EV. Why isn’t anyone focusing on a simple EVSE/ V2G (vehicle to grid) solution. These companies both vehicle and EVSE makers are dogging any real innovation in this area. I know, some have a plug for V2G, but seriously that’s about it. A soccer mom or dad should be able to plug in a single smart cable and deal with getting dinner on rather than messing around with settings and home storage solutions not to mention spending the tuition money on something both redundant and a fraction of the size of the storage already existing in their EV. Perhaps there’s more to it but frankly and nothing personal, many people want to participate in the advances in technology without having to become energy geeks. Thanks for your contributions.
I think having the EV battery as a backup power source for the home makes a lot of sense for an emergency battery. Perfect for people that don't care to separate themselves from the grid in some meaningful way. But there is the issue that what if your house needs power while you are out of the house and driving your EV somewhere? If you need power while you're gone, it becomes very inconvenient if you then have to avoid using your car just because it is your backup power.
Using your car’s battery as home energy storage frequently/continuously will degrade the vehicle’s battery more quickly- reducing range, resell value, available range when you need it, etc. Seems better for an emergency and plugging it in based on your own decision vs everyday usage.
The fact we still need more batteries just proves my point, that while power generation still need to increase, it doesnt have to increase what coal and other power sectors were trying to say that we needed to hit. The fact is we WASTE a ton of power everyday to nothing. Now that we have some way to store it we are seeing the need for power generation is actually dropping thus we're hitting to a point where renewables are even able to keep up with the base load power now just from a few hours of the day in the sun. Also while I loves to see more LFP - NA still to me seems like the clear winner when it comes to grid and home base power needs. If LFP is already doing this much work, cant wait to see what hybrid NALFP brings or even just raw NA (both sides of the battery) can bring next in terms of cost.
This is the thing. If we create a smart electric grid, everyone's electric car could be that dynamic storage. Charge them when there is excess, use the car batteries power for high demands. With it being smart, you can program your car to give or take as much as you need.
please keep us updated if this new type of batteries are available for home use and if its really cheaper specially for solar kits.
When I hear Rolls-Royce I dont think about cars, I think about jet engines
Great video! I never get tired of battery videos. I don't use enough electricity to get solar plus the grid here is from hydro power so my distant "Backwoods" dreams of an off grid system seem silly now.😊
Wouldn't 5 years of daily cycles be approximately 1500 cycles?
Battery full to Battery empty to battery full is a cycle. So, many cycles can occur in a day, it just depends on how fast you empty and refill your batts. The main claim is ~5 years without any battery degradation. If true, fantastic.
@@suklee1400yes, if this is accurate, CATL just took dominance with stationary energy storage. Hard to beat that standard.
Yeah! @4:35 showing "15,000 daily cycles over 5 years" must be an error.
this is not the first video in witch he messed up the numbers
Hello Matt
Can you tells what is going on in battery industry about graphene battery?
Are any products are in manufacturing or its is already dead?
PLEASE get the citizens of Vancouver to adopt heat pumps. Air conditioners are few and far between there, and our VRBO didn’t have one. We visited last month, and we baked for a week in an area which is supposed to be temperate. The whole city looked parched. I grew up there, and was used to frequent rain and lush greenery. Not this summer.
It's hot for one week a year and everyone now need air conditioning? How about better house design?
@@marcsimmonds5483 I would be happy with that too, across the country The windows in this place also didn’t open much more than an inch, so it was hot overnight. And the grass almost everywhere was brown. All in all, not the same Vancouver I grew up in.
@@marcsimmonds5483 And it’s easier to add a mini split to a room or two than renovate a house.
Have you investigated Air-Zinc batteries like E-Zinc? No degradation.
I usually listen to video in English but today I heard it in Hindi and being an ai voice apart from wrong numbers else was really good this will help people to break specific language barrier. Cheers
In a few years it's gonna seem crazy that we ever used something so flammable as lithium for this. You should do a video on Eos and their Z3 cubes. Non-flammable American-made zinc batteries.
I wish more people did these kinds of videos in Hindi, I can share so much information with my parents who don’t understand English at all
For some reason I took a quick take and thought you said 'forever brewery'.
Must be some kind of Freudian thing. 😁
I wish they could make batteries for small electronics that could handle a lot of cycles. My earbuds died again because the batteries have had too many cycles in less than 2 years. There goes another $300.
I don't now if the Chinese claims are reliable.
You may want to run your own battery of tests.
China beats US in battery again? No way, impossible!!! And China beats US of A in solar, winds and nuclear energy?? Chinese are absolutely lying!!! And Chinese never killed any astronauts and built its own space station?? This MUST be CGI!
Just ask S. Korea...they just had multiple EV battery fires incidents from both a battery manufacturing plant (Chinese owned) and vehicles using batteries sourced from China.
@@ICDeadPeeps right "china claims"
CATL is the largest battery company in the world. Your doubt is just chinaphobia
@@KMASIF-mi9yj trash-phobia is a more appropriate description
5 years without degradation? I think the Ambri liquid metal battery is good for at least that.
My only question is, sure, it works flawlessly for the first 5 years.... after that does it fall completely apart? Does it degrade at the normal rate after that? What's the tradeoff?
"china claims"
@@fredlacroix6865 it's not like there aren't highly questionable "US claims"
I am guessing no. its just 5 years before there is any degradation. Even if it's the "normal rates," you are going to get another 5 years before there is any noticeable reduction in storage. If you plan on a 10% overhead, you can get 20 years before you start needed to replace, or add more cells to the system.
@spencer9392 if it's actually 5yrs with no degradation after so many cycles, it may have 10% degradation after 20yrs for all we know. But until these cells actually age under heavy use, we won't know. Lab tests for 5yrs of use over 1yr isn't gonna be the same thing as thousands of people using these batteries for 5yrs.
Just bookmark this comment and come back in 10 years. We will have all of your answers.
The cabinets are similar to what I had been helping manufacturer at Torus. They just opened a facility in salt lake to start their production line. Though they have been also making flywheels.
I have been looking into the new Tesla Aluminum Ion battery. This is supposed to last about 200 years with (if I remember correctly) and 50,000 cycles. It might be a good idea to at least look into this technology. If it is all true then an electric could go around 2000 miles between charges and is about 1/4 the cost of Lithium Ion batteries. Plus It is very safe and not subject to thermal run-away. Oh and last but least it can charge in only 10 minutes!
Oh..
A few percentage points in degradation in years 0-5 can be easily compensated for by just making the battery a bit larger and heavier. For instance, if existing tech would result in 6% degradation after 5 years, just make the battery 6% larger to compensate, problem solved.
What would make me more impressed about the technology is if it increases the total lifespan of the battery, allowing it to continue to be usable beyond 10 years or 20 years. That would be real progress.
LFP can already be cycled at 80% DoD once per day and still have 80% usable capacity after ~15 years. Which is still plenty useful. Calendar aging where it starts to really drop off its capacity is said to be at the 20-25 year mark. But there's not a lot of solid data there.
Bio-mimicry will be the future of our technological design! Hearing that we're starting to incorporate natural solutions to our energy problem is so exciting
On a different note, I have wondered if the oil companies didn’t push out the electric cars back in the early 20th century what technology of batteries would we have in the current day.
they would have gone bankrupt anyway. the technology around that field was too minimal it would have never made a viable product. its taken decades of other technology, and manufacturing processes to get to the point where we can begin to make batteries that are barely viable for vehicles that can compete against petroleum based fuel vehicles. I don't see any way it could have happened any way but how it did.
Wonder all you want.
Battery automobiles have been around since Edison.
No grand conspiracy required. The weight, fragility & battery degradation have always failed against ICE.
This is why I think both CATL and BYD will be opening factories in the USA to supply EV battery packs and battery packs for power storage.
Don't forget their cheap EV's!
Depends upon who's in the Oval Office. Lobbyists (largely for the fossil fuel industry) will have their lackey politicians block this.
Not sure I've ever heard so many acronyms in one TH-cam video!
I have been on the fence adding energy storage to our Solar with the emerging battery tech. I think I'll be buying one of the new systems next year and hope it's everything we want it to be
Hopefully the Grid won't go down while you're still on the fence!
@@suklee1400 Rarely happens in Phoenix AZ
Excuse me? A paper, in 2020, claiming it's a "surprise" that LFP degradation is lower than NMC?
As far as I remember, this was "common knowledge" back then. If you didn't care about the lower energy density but needed higher cycle and calendar life, or some sub-zero charging capabilities, LFP was the way to go, with the bonus of less flammability. If you needed even more durability and could tolerate the even lower energy density, or needed to be able to charge in arctic temperatures, or needed some ridiculous current densities, go for LTO. Otherwise, Nickel-based anodes provide the highest energy densities, with the exact recipe providing the tradeoffs between energy, power density and longevity (and explosivity). LiPo-s provided the explosive power end along with the knowledge that flames were was a matter of "when", not "if".
A123 went bankrupt 8 years before that, and had been resurrected as two other companies, and they made big headlines with their LFP batteries (both good and bad). The longer life of those compared to contemporary conventional "Li-Ion" family was always a big marketing point.
What are you referring to from the video about a "surprise"?
Every channel says game changing every day. Start to feel the hype.
Love your videos, but struggling with conceptualizing what energy/power capabilities a mega watt or even kilowatt have. I’d love to see more analogies when talking about batter capacity. For example, “this is a 15kW battery, which could power --- for -- amount of time.”
ESS is what gets my juices flowing!
Vanadium redox flow batteries are the way to go. They say it lasts 25 years, but that's just being conservative, it can be recycled indefinately. Non-toxic, no chance of catching fire and easily extensible.
.. but very expensive. I don't see where Vanadium competes against BESS consisting of Na for short-term and Fe (like Form Energy) for longer (even weeks).
@jonb5493 expensive, yes. But it is getting cheaper all the time. And still nothing beats it in longetivity. Initial high price and lower maintenance and no replacement costs. After 5-7 years, it's the cheapest alternative with the added bonus of less fire risk.
Like musk says, drill baby drill
I'm not concerned about losing 10% of capacity over 5 years.
I'm concerned about losing more than 50% over 20 years.
I require long term, reliable storage for 11kwh & being able to access this at a rate of 3kwh.
Personally I wish they would invest more in the gravity hydro power plants then batteries.. but I am glad battery tech is moving ahead too
The cutaway to Mac playing both sides totally blindsided me
15 kw's does NOT cover the avg us household for 2 days. with wood heat in the winter we still use 30 kw's a day. the summer is more like 50-60kw's a day. you released this an hour ago.
kwh?
He might have got it the wrong way around, apparently the avg is 30kWh per day.
That said, except for the depths of winter I can cover almost our entire energy budget for most of the year with our solar output, I figure about a 10-15kWh battery would let us almost completely go grid power free. We don't have gas or other, I'd probably want some more panels if I had an electric car.
kWh is energy. kW is power. Otherwise, I agree.
Sounds like you're well above the average. Average home electricity usage is 30 kWh/day. But agreed that 10-15 kWh of battery wont cover a house for 2 days unless the homeowner is very frugal with their energy usage.
He lives in the UK where it nether gets really hot or really cold and the houses are smaller. That is why they get by on 15 kwh.
What would be a real game changer would be a small, cheap, modular plug&play home battery that you can install easily with a small capacity to begin with and then upgrade over time.
Is there any ESS that's using hydrogen for grid storage? It recently occurred to me that using renewables to create hydrogen via electrolysis could be a seriously effective way of storing energy, since I know that's one of the biggest hurdles there are.
No, theres some research, trial projects and industrial usage but no active scaled deployment of hydrogen storage compared to battery storage. The economics is against hydrogen in this case as batteries are cheaper (capital and operational costs), more effecient, take up less space and require less maintainence. Hydrogen is considered where there is a secondary use for the waste heat produced in the hydrogen generation, processing and conversion to electricty steps, such as industrial processes.
The long-term problem with LFPs for grid energy storage is that they are the most sensitive to the price of lithium per kilowatt hour. This means that their success will ultimately lead to their failure as they consume larger amounts of lithium per kilowatt hour in production if demand for them skyrockets globally, the price of lithium will also sky rocket making them a less and less economic investment as they succeed.
In theory as prices increase new lithium sources would be exploited bringing the price back down. Although in the consumer world prices never go down that isn't the case for commodities. This can be seen at your local scrap yard. The value of lithium today is already spurring the development of new lithium mines. Like the one in Nevada iirc.
Most forms of stationary storage need to last 15-25 years to make economic sense. If the short-term pause on degradation has any detrimental effect on long-term reliability, it may be moot.
Or be really cheap and have swappable components (although for the sake of the environment I prefer the first option)
@@drillerdev4624 Modular battery systems for maintainability will definitely become a necessity: I cannot imagine throwing away literal tons of batteries due to single failed cells in the whole unit being sustainable.
We're still ~10 years away from seeing how well the first wave of mainstream EVs and their batteries will age into retirement. I'm apprehending a nightmare of EVs getting scrapped prematurely due to single-cell failures and the inability to service battery packs in a safe, reliable and cost-effective manner.
I was just doing some rough napkin math for a relative's house that wants to cut their power bill. A $12k DIY system has a payback of roughly 8 years just switching from a flat-rate plan to time-of-use + battery storage. Well within the longevity of an LFP system. Looking at ~15 years before they degrade down to 80% with current tech.
On cnevpost they say "Tener has a cycle life of more than 15,000, which is 1.7 times the current mainstream level, and will not decay in the first five years of its 20-year life expectancy, CATL said."
At night when the electrical power grid demand is low these Tesla battery packs are recharged. The benefit is your local power provider will need fewer power plants built to carry the heavy peak loads during the high power demand during the day. Resulting in a more efficient use of your power plants.