I think the issue with Frontiers combat is too many moves have similar effects to each other Imagine if Wild Rush, for example, let Sonic lock on to multiple enemies at the same time and travel from one to the other, sending whoever he hits flying, or it let him target one singular enemy for a powerful combo attack
Personally I'd make wild rush only usable if you successfully dodge with the quickstep buttons Speaking of the quickstep buttons, it should probably have more directions than just left and right, because who's playing a combat action game where the only real dodge buttons only have two directions?
Actually, come to think of it, it would be better to make it like your idea, but also incorporating the dodge. Maybe dodging adds a damage stack which will carry over to the next wild rush.
In my opinion, the Frontiers combat system is mostly for aesthetics because unless you disable the mode for zooming in on a specific move it shows Sonic giving his all with just low attack points. Compare that with Unleashed Werehog combat, Sonic the Werehog is a freak of nature
My biggest problem with Frontiers combat is that there is no punishment for just spaming moves. The enemies just stand there as you watch a mini cutscene play out and dont do anything to counter other than making sheilds You don't have to think of any creative ways to defeat the enemy. It's always just "which mini cutscene do you want to watch that does nothing but more damage" Lastly the enemies dont scale go whatever level youre on
@@ALegendaryBlueHedge facts, like look at devil may cry there’s a style meter, which is essential for S Ranks, spamming moves a certain number of times will stop filling the style gauge if you don’t mix up your toolkit. Why didn’t they implement something like that for Sonic?
@@amazingboi9388 If you make a combat focused game, one of the first things you should take into account is attack spamming, it’s just basic game dev. Besides, it doesn’t have to be 1 to 1 with DMC5. The phantom Rush gauge could’ve had different tiers based on how well you fight, like dodging attacks, parrying, perfect parries, etc. Higher you raise the meter, more powerful the phantom rush gets. That way, you’re incentivized to interact with the combat system instead of “HEH HEH HEH, CROSS SLASH GO FWOOSH”
That’s because platnium games made it and if u know who they are u also know their basically gods at making action games Ik this is probably not gonna happen soon but I been saying for the longest platinum games would do Sonics combat so much justice I was playing nier automata and tmnt mutants in Manhattan and somehow both styles fit for sonic and working alongside sonic team I think they can make something amazing especially with other characters coming into the picture
My take on a sonic combat system is that he shouldn't just focus on one enemy, but on all of them. For example, the sonic cd intro and outro animation, he plays with his enemies and confuses them to the point where he makes them destroy themselves. So in my dream sonic game, he could taunt a big enemy to attack him, and junp from one small enemy to another to avoid the big foe's attack, until all the smaller enemies are destroyed, or steal the weapon of an enemy and shoot at the other foes.
I don't really think the homing attack is really the biggest issue in Sonic Frontiers' combat. Kingdom Hearts 2 and Kingdom Hearts 3 also has this magnetism when attacking too but the combat in those games are pretty good. If anything, I think Sonic Frontiers needs better enemy design to encourage you to think more (like the enemies in Kingdom Hearts).
That's what the guardians are for. You can't just spam attacks on them. You have to figure out how to get an opening, and that requires you to do plenty of things that aren't just spamming attacks.
@@roiitzkovich4545 Most of the guardians require being good at platforming to beat rather than be good with the combat systems... and the ones that do lean into raw combat only require you to use the parry to stun and just wail at them without much risk. There's very little real meaningful combat in Frontiers because the enemy encounters are too linear and one-note.
@@ConcavePgons 1. I enjoy the platforming gimmicks each guardian offers (except Shark for obvious reasons). 2. On Extreme difficulty you gotta get better with the combat to win. Half of my appreciation for the combat in Frontiers is thanks to my experience with Extreme difficulty. I started to come up with strategies and creative combos to efficiently beat enemies.
@@roiitzkovich4545Guardians (other than Ninja class) don't require existence of combat at all. They work like regular Sonic bosses where you just need to do stuff to unlock their hitbox. The rest of combat is just trying to spam time stopping attacks to not have to do the non-combat phase again.
Please, someone share this video with the Sonic Team, they need to hear this. Just one thing... I think Sonic should hit while on the ground like in any fighting game by pressing the square button, and that to perform the homing attack you must jump first.
Probably a more in depth lock on system. While I like the idea of a homing attack, while I understand it’s too fast to be precise, I want a better way to select who or what I want to target. Even if it’s just a slow mo moment or brief selection with the right stick. Something that allows me to change a target on the fly and even innovate a combo to try and gather enemies altogether for a combo or just- deal with an enemy later if I already know there is a bigger threat. Feel like having something that displays the need for quick thinking along with a more flexible targeting system would honestly make it feel like I am thinking quick on my feet and taking advantage of speed instead of “oh, this guy’s the next target let’s go” Another thing I’d like to see is probably a reward for not only running up to the enemy but memorizing attack patterns and dodging attacks, sure a parry is cool but if you know sonic colors and that amazing presentation to begin the game when sonic is storming through an army of egg bots. I want to nearly dodge attacks and take advantage of the enemies weak points without just- jumping away every single time. Or holding a single button. As for the parry, as it stands I like it. But if it took some inspiration from sonic and the black knight for how you parry attacks in that game with the QTEs in mind, I’d say that might be kinda cool to see. Don’t know exactly how it would work, but I imagine it could maybe be a series of qtes or maybe a series of perfectly timed attacks or parries in a row.
1. I think they should add another attack button to add more depth to combos 2. Make it so you have to press multiple buttons to do the special moves instead of just one or two in a row 3. Have a real ground to air combat system instead of what we currently have were it’s just sonic floating in the air.
Me personally what i would change is the fact u can abuse the moves u unlock. Like why would i keep punching an enemy and stomp on them if u can just spam the sonic boom to defeat them.
This is kind of why I like using some combat mods. It doesn't fix the enemy design, but allows for better variation with sonic's moveset. For example: in hedgehog may cry (the remake version) homing shot does more than just awkwardly hit any for dmg. It actually pulls the enemy towards and allows you to set up for sonething else. I believe combat in frontiers can work out if sega actually takes the time to flesh out both, better enemy design, and a more refined moveset.
This doesn’t change much functionally, but I do think it is saying it would be nice if they implemented: You know the special move? I think it would be cool if there’s a couple different animations that can happen when disability is used. Instead of it just being the same spin-dash buzz saw attack every time, I think it would be cool. Occasionally sonic performs some really cool combo or unique style to damage the opponent, kind of like what we saw in the Titan battles. Think something kind of like when you perform a takedown in the Arkham games. Once you built up the combo and perform the takedown, you know, Batman is going to perform some move on an enemy to remove them from the battle, but you never know exactly what animation he’ll perform. One time he might break their arm, another time he might break their leg, or there’s even a chance he might just throw the enemy into the dirt. This means every time you perform it you’re going to be just as invested as the first time you pulled off the takedown because you never quite know which animation he’s going to perform and how brutal it will be. Even sonic only had three takedown animations to go through, it would a little bit of variety. They don’t have to be super cool, some of them could be somewhat comedic. Maybe maybe lean into sonic super super speed by having him simply in enemy and have them land flat on their face when they tried charging you
Examples: Animation one: Sonic does the whole Spindash into them then kick thing. Animation two: Sonic uses Blue Tornado, then flies around like in Wild Rush before slamming into the enemy as a ball. Animation three: Sonic slaps the enemy, whirling them around with wind energy, before getting into a running position and slamming into them with a Boost aura.
After my time in Frontiers and seeing how some of that DNA hasn't been completely ironed out to a more refined state around Shadow Gens (The Biolizard fight looks cool, but gameplay-wise, it's kind of more of the same but now the Homing Attack has an animation of Shadow punching the Biolizard)... It really could stand to have something to give it a bit of that Platinum Charm, so to speak. A LOT of the moves in Frontiers kind of all do the same thing of "harm enemy" when in games like TF:Devastation (Peak TF game honestly, needs a sequel), the vehicle attack functions as a means to reward implementing speed into your combos, the parry in that game acts as a momentary stagger technique and allows the reward of combo extension, and while you have a basic combo, you ALSO have moves designed to get into the air, moves designed to send the enemies to the ground, etc. Another thing that would really help Frontiers would ironically be the removal of the parry. The parry was a choice, but I think a dodge like in Devastation and Bayonetta would actually fit better for Sonic, where a parry is more for characters who aren't focused on speed. If there's another thing that could be done, I think the best thing would be to instead nerf the Homing Attack in a combat setting. Instead of it being this be-all end-all, it should instead act like a Stinger technique designed to let you blitz to the enemy, and if there was a speed mechanic tied to the attacks, it could even reward speedy combat by certain enemies being destroyed in one hit, while other enemies can be staggered and put into a downed state for combos. It allows for the best of both worlds, but does primarily focus on an aspect of making sure that if one doesn't pull off the speed, at least the combat would still feel engaging enough that we'd still find some fun in the action.
The homing attack is basically the web strike in spider man. It's a good opener and allows you to target enemies and get to them instantly. However what should be changed are the rest of the combat moves and enemy types. Either make it like Arkham/dmc combat where you need to use different techniques to overcome different enemy types or make it like spider man/god of war where it's just satisfying to chain combos together without many "cutscene" attacks.
I think the way spark the electric jester 3 handled the homing attack in relation to combat did it best, in that game you had small enemies that were your typical homing attack fodder used in platforming, but then you had stronger enemies with healthbars that you couldn’t homing attack, and had to actually fight with the game’s light-heavy combo system(I think you could homing attack them in spark 2, though it wouldn’t do any damage) it separates the homing attack from combat entirely and allows both it and the abilities meant for combat shine in the situations they were intended for.
Sorta reminds me of how the homing attack is used in Black Knight: you use it to set up an attack, it itself is not an attack, just buys you time to swing the sword
A personal gripe I have with Frontiers with the combat and game in general is that I wish the game recognized which enemies are apart of the mini platform challenges and which ones are out in the field for combat. Too many times have I done a platform challenge where the enemy is apart of the platform design and the game thinks I’m doing another move when I’m not One other thing is that I really hope there’s a upgrade system of some sort with the skill tree where the game replaces the inferior moves that do the same thing. This way, the button inputs are way less cramped and it allows for Sonic Team to come up with a lot more moves. Basically, it gives more space for the inputs while allowing more original moves like any other action game
"Real Silver Frontiers" is the name of the mod that I will get for this. So if anyone else also wants to use that mod just type those words in and you'll be able to get to it.
I don't think the homing attack makes the combat automated as long as you don't overrely on it. And why even would you? It's more beneficial to mix it up with other attacks to deal more damage and slow down the enemies so you'll have lengthier openings. Also, other action games do that too. KH and DMC have attacks which send you close to an enemy, and those attacks are placed on the normal attack button. Therefore, if you really want it, you could spam the basic attack button and beat the game. Sure, in those games you'll find bosses that'll try to prevent you from spamming normal attacks, but the same applies to the guardians and titans in frontiers. You can't just spam square and see results. But as for your idea of removing the homing attack so you'll have to manually close the gap. If you really wanna do that, I think the camera will have to be closer to Sonic. As of now, the camera is distanced enough from sonic so you can still see what he's doing, but it doesn't do the best job at conveying his exact position in tight spots. It's why, when sonic does platforming in the open-zone, platforms aren't very small. The devs gave you some margin for error so you can comfortably land where you should, without having the precision of a computer, as well as giving you a good view of the surrounding area. When you climb the towers in Final Horizon, Sonic does tighter platforming than usual, but the camera is often close enough to him so you can tell where he'll land regardless. That being said, Sonic and the enemies in Frontiers (the normal enemies, not the boss fights) aren't too big. As a result, positioning Sonic next to them and closing gaps manually seems like an annoyance. How should I position Sonic right next to an enemy without getting hit myself (especially annoying on extreme difficulty, which is how I prefer playing the game)? If the character models will be better seen to the player, positioning Sonic next to an enemy will not be a pickle. Unfortunately, that'll also create other issues. If we're gonna bring the camera closer to Sonic so he'll have better positioning in combat, as a consequence of that, the platforming in the open zone will be hurt. Suddenly you wouldn't be able to tell well enough where to land when jumping and your view of the open zone will be more limited. The new camera will make the platforming and exploration in the open zone less enjoyable. Considering you're doing a lot more platforming and exploration in Frontiers than combat, I'm afraid a change like the one you suggested will do more harm than good. As for your second suggestion regarding the grand slam, I actually don't mind. I'd simply offer giving players a meter that indicates how close they are to a grand slam. Doing normal attacks will fill that meter quite slowly, trying different special attacks will fill it a bit faster and parrying attacks will fill it by a large amount. You could technically get a grand slam by landing normal hits, but it'll take a while. Therefore, players will be encouraged to try different attacks or perhaps parrying. However, the slow-down Sonic gets after a parry should be kept. I enjoy landing some more damage on enemies after a parry thanks to them being frozen for a few seconds.
If the next mainline Sonic game has combat in it I want every combat move in the skill tree have a special property and with a combo system that rewards the player for making unique combos it could make the player stop avoiding the combat encounters like most players do in Frontiers. I would also like it if they make skill animations last less time compared to special attacks in Frontiers so that it would encourage players adding variety to their attack patterns instead of mashing a single button.
Ive only ever seen gameplay of Transformers Devestation once or twice before (was never the biggest transformers fan, unfortunately) and now that you mention it, that would probably be perfect. Sonic is way too fast in movement speed to have as precise and complicated combat system as your DMCs, your Bayonettas, your MGRRs... But seeing the gameplay of Transformers Devastation, yeah, that definitely hits the spot for sonic.
I entirely disagree with this. If we look at any of the major character action systems that Frontiers takes inspiration from, DMC, Bayonetta, God Hand, etc. they all have single target lock on systems. Characters like Nero even have gap closing moves with his Devil Bringer. It's also just not true that you can't focus on more than one enemy in Frontiers. Cylooping a group of enemies breaks shields and launches them in the air. Baiting two or three enemies together and hitting them with a Cyloop and going in for a Cyclone Kick/Spin Slash is a great way to do crowd control. Breaking shields with a Cyloop, or juggling with Quick Cyloop, Sonic Boom, Cross Slash, or Cyclone Kick are an incredibly important part to the combat system. As an aside, there's also this misconception that because these moves are powerful and can deal with enemies quickly, that somehow means this combat system is bad. The whole system, from the overpowered moves, to the RPG level system, to the way all the bosses have some method to be cheesed or skip phases, leads me to believe the goal of the combat was to make you defeat enemies *fast*. If DMC is about style, and GoW is about brutality, and Dark Souls is about dis-empowerment, Sonic Frontiers is about fighting fast in an open world platformer. With stuff like Battle Rush only ranking you on how fast you clear every enemy on the islands, not with a style system like DMC, I'm led to think that the goal of each fight is to win as fast as possible. The tools they give you to do this via exploring the open-zone, extra levels and skill points for new damaging moves, ties into this. Even the fact that the overall goal in a playthrough isn't to win fights with an S rank, but to collect the Chaos Emeralds, with each major boss testing your fundamental combat skills on a timer, also feeds into this. If you're speedrunning Frontiers, you wouldn't want to give a shit about getting style points and S ranks when fighting enemies or bosses, you just want to kill them. It's not like there isn't depth to beating enemies quickly either. You could build up Quick Cyloop against each individual enemy, then take them out one at a time, or you could bait them all together, cyloop the ones that aren't guarding, try and do so without taking damage from the incoming spikes/attacks, position your homing attack to get a Cyclone Kick or Spin Slash on all 3 of them, dodge cancel moves into each other, and take down an entire group in one go. The same applies to bosses, Cylooping and juggling Ninja enemies before they have a chance to disappear, jumping on top of Tower bosses and Quick Cylooping to their final phase immediately, jumping on top of Squid by memorizing its route instead of running on the path, etc. etc. Not all the bosses are like this; Shark is the worst boss for a reason, but when this combat system works, it blends speedy platforming and speedy combat in a way only Sonic really ever could.
Now I know I am a bit late. But I think I got a way to improve the combat, and it is simple. Sonic Team should take a similar approach to games like Genshin Impact and Wuthering Waves. The combat in those games are both simple but effective. With Wuthering Waves adding a bit more depth to it with the idea of perfect dodges and parrying enemies attacks by attacking them. Plus it can work with multiple playable characters. So basically when you encounter an enemy, Mini-Boss, Boss, or a group of enemies who has more health than the average one. Your character(Sonic, Tails, or Knuckles) enter combat mode. Every character has a light attack button, heavy attack, and dodge skill. Writhe these are close melee, Mid Range, or Long Range attacks depends on what character you’re playing. Maybe a certain characters has mixed of all three or two types. You get 5 to 7 hits light attack combo on the ground and a light attack combo in the air. Of course with different animations. The same idea will also applies for Heavy Attacks that has more damage, but these will have less number of hits. One Heavy combo on the ground and a Heavy one in the air. Maybe the Heavy one always end in a some kind of plunge attack. Oh also the light and heavy buttons can be hold down/charge for different attacks. Next after that each character will have a certain number of combat skills or special attacks that takes the energy meter. I say at least 4 or 3 special attacks for every character. Plus maybe an ultimate. These are were the flashy moves comes in. Also I would make it that every character has a Homing attack. Make like the Super Dash from DBFighterZ. It’s the go to get in move and a get transition to other combos. Like say you doing a light attack combo and the end of it knocks the enemy either away or into the sky. Use the Homing Attack to chase them and continue the combo. Now should it be projectile in invulnerable? Idk maybe for some characters and/or some characters have different ranges for it to activate. Now defense options. That simple. You have a dodge and are able to parry attacks. If you dodge at just the right time rather if it’s a melee or range attack from an enemy. A slow down effect will occur allowing you to get some hits in. Now for parry. I think should be two different ways to parry an enemy. The first way is similar to Frontiers. You just press the parry button at the right time and it will stun the enemy. Another way is by parry but instead by pressing the actual attack button right as the enemy attacks. Doing this will cancel the enemy attack and stun them. This will mostly work on melee attacks, but I can see it working on ranged as will in specific situations. And BOOM applies this to every character, make a game out of it, and we’re good to go.
So in short, beef with the concept of a lock-on system? How would you personally have manual lock-on and homing coexist? Your solution presents an alternative apprehension method but doesn't really seem viable for the coexistence of both the homing attack and the lock-on.
In my opinion a good amount of the new attacks in this game that can get unlocked when the player has collected enough skill points, look like ones that Silver the hedgehog could do with the use of his telekinesis, so I think that Frontiers should have had him be the playable character who uses those new attacks. Which is one of the reasons why after I get my own gaming PC and download the PC port of Frontiers into it, I'll try to download a "Silver Render" mod that I've heard of that makes Sonic look like Silver in this game and that mod also has a few voicelines in it from Pete Capella (Silver's original English VA) mostly the iconic ones from Sonic 06 of: "It's no use!" and "Take this!" That dialogue gets triggered after a button to cause an attack gets pressed.
Frontiers' combat is fun but VERY flawed but it's main problem for me is that it doesn't even feel Sonic-like. Like Sonic throwing Ki-blasts and shit is cool but to me that should be reserved for Super Sonic. His base combat is really bland and generic in terms of what it does. I mean when I think of Sonic combat I think of stylishly dodging enemies using your environment to attack them in cool ways. Not just... throwing punches. I mean when have we ever seen Sonic just straight up throw hands with somebody?? The Cyloop is the only move that feels Sonic-like becasue it incorporates his moveset and movement into the attack. EDIT: I also would prefer a wind aesthetic over the lightning aura they have in Frontiers but that's just my personal preference.
Sonic has been throwing hands since Sonic the Fighters, but yeah barring bombs, I think Sonic Battle did a better job or representing Sonic as a fighter
I had a thought that the Homing Attack should be mapped to a different button just so it doesn’t have to be the starter for every combat chain. Maybe make it the top button instead of the left so you can start a combo without homing attack, similar to Spider-Man. I also agree with having skills being more rewarding to unlock, like what if Wild Rush is only able to be initiated by doing a perfect dodge. Imo makes the game’s combat system rewarding and fun to watch.
Even more, I feel this can be used in different ways Either you ram into an enemy, dealing high dmg and send them sky high, giving you the choice of chasing them down and sending them into the horde, or choosing to focus on the lack of enemies. Or, you can activate Sonic Wind by circling the enemy at speed, lifting all enemies within the circle. Basically a better cyloop with no button press or limited usage, as long as you're at speed. Would work best with physics based gameplay rather than the boost gameplay (my right index regrets this game). Afterwards, you can choose to use anything nearby to build up speed and enhance any attack. To me, there should be a player toggle between combat and platforming, allowing you to choose if you want to fight and allowing you to tap out for a sec, then come barreling back in throwing hands.
The charging tackle mechanic you mentioned should definitely be able to transfer into an enemy surfing animation that you can ram into other enemies to launch them. It's more interactive, fits Sonic's personality, and creates openings for more flashy combos. Also a chargeable homing attack that can bounce between enemies and actual dedicated launchers, we need that Sonic eagle. This is just an animation nitpick but I always imagined Sonic dodging an attack should look like the instant transmission or the body flicker technique from Naruto. I personally think it would look way cooler if Sonic dodging was just him briefly disappearing then appearing a short distance away. But maybe that can be relegated to a perfect dodge animation. Another animation nitpick for me is that Sonic should definitely be relying on his legs a lot more. Not saying he shouldn't be punching at all, but we should definitely be seeing more of that breakdancing/Capoeira style from Sonic battle. The skill tree is fine but I think it should also include extended combos with flashier animations as apart of the upgrades. Some of the moves Sonic already has can be tweaked to be multipurpose for combat and traversal, wild rush is a great example. Cyclone kick should also actually form a tornado that sticks around for bit and damages and launches enemies. It can also work for traversal with Sonic using the tornado as basically an extra powerful spring to launch himself high in the air. A more extensive parkour system would be nice as well, look into Sonic Overdrive for an idea of where I want Sonic team to go with this. Basically that plus being able to wall run on pretty much anything if you have the speed. This, along with the dropdash would make for some absolutely godlike movement throughout the map. Super cinematic while still flowing well and being in full control. The increased damage as you reach higher levels of speed is a great idea from you and makes so much sense I'm shocked Sonic Team didn't try it for Frontiers. This is such a great way to raise the skill ceiling, basically allowing you to play the game like it's a more traditional Sonic game with the one hit enemies as long as you can keep max speed. I can see myself running around for hours tearing through enemies and bouncing around the place kind of like that scene from the Sonic OVA. This is what I think was missing from the combat and traversal in Frontiers. Sonic team seems to be nervous to really lean into the power fantasy of being a speedster on the level of Sonic. Let's hope they go crazy with the next open zone project.
Also,there should’ve been an unleash form for frontiers that could’ve been utilized for overpowering sonic like how it was with unleashed.And frontiers’ combat system doesn’t use all of its combat mechanics, you could defeat most of the open zone enemies with just a single attack. There is no variety to it unless it’s a semi hard boss like sumo,though.And by mechanics I mean different attacks that the game gives you not the approaches that you could use to stagger the enemies.It has different approaches but there is no difference in finishing.
My vision of combat is not exactly but i agree with you on some points i don't like the fact that there is no ground combat they should do both an ground combo that you can turn into an actual air combo .For the combat the homing attack just need to 1 shot enemies with no healthbars but against an enemy with an healtbar you need to punch and kick perform combo to unlock (like in unleashed) a finisher move . I think that the game should be able to let you customize your combos and combat style (like emerl in sonic battle) bcz i don't really like the punch kick punch kick attack(its kinda repetitive). I think that the phantom rush should be a button that you can press when you pick up rings, perform combos...and when the bar is you are able to press it. It 's gonna do the same things ( faster combos, extra damage) but with something like a short time invincibility Yea for me the phantom rush should more be like an unleashed bar (like in sonic unleashed) And the ultimate thing for me is that you can find or buy accessories and clothes with rings and he give abilities (like sonic adventure1&2 ) if it's not new abilities it's extra damage extra speed higher jump example you can buy the basketball shoes in sonic and mario in olympic games and it give you 1 extra jump. And the eggman base that we see in kronos island can be where sonic equip new abilities new combos and new clothes like shoes ,gloves, socks like the arc on Transformers devastation (w game and w universe btw) and i really like your videos man
I’ve wanted Sonic Team to steal the Combat of Metal Gear Rising but now that you bring it up Transformers Devastation’s System does already work better for Sonic without needing to adjust so many things. Ok Sonic Team please Steal the Combat of Transformers Devastation, I don’t care if it’s shameless just do it because it’s cool and fits Sonic.
It’s funny that u mention those games because platnium games made em and if u know who they are u also know their basically gods at making action games Ik this is probably not gonna happen soon but I been saying for the longest platinum games would do Sonics combat so much justice I was playing nier automata and tmnt mutants in Manhattan and somehow both styles fit for sonic and working alongside sonic team I think they can make something amazing especially with other characters coming into the picture
Y'know this entire game really feels like ST stealing from other games that have similar features to it (climbing+koroks from BoTW, combat setpieces from Metal gear or something, etc)
I think there’s a way to revamp the homing attack In rollin rascal when you do a homing attack you get launched after doing it With Sonic if you hold the homing attack button Sonic could speed up as he approaches the enemy then launching him at a set speed, but if you hold back on the analog stick you could keep the combo going into a strong backhit then into a fast flurry of attacks sort of like Spider-Man in Web of Shadows if you hold down the button. Followed by several bounces into a large AOE and if you time your presses launches the enemy into another one and they bounce off of each other causing their guard to be broken. Then you can initiate the light speed attack to destroy them and also chip away at nearby targets as it should have an AOE that’s not as strong but brings them closer to Sonic. Once the attack is finished he boosts through them all and knocks any who are in his way off their feet staggering them And if he does enough combos he can activate blue tornado briefly causing him to appear in multiple places allowing him to shred through groups of enemies for a second or repeatedly if you hold the button. The attack will do less damage over time, but leaves the enemy staggered for longer and sends them all flying away causing devastating collateral damage as they bump into each other or other enemies who weren’t caught in the tornado. Finally he can activate a Sonic Boom that breaks guards and staggers nearby enemies. Sonic is now super fast and can attack multiple targets at once leaving them stunned and act as bombs if knocked away with a powerful attack and cause sonic booms that aren’t as powerful but stun multiple enemies Sonic can follow with a spin dash to knock them up and and do a massive tornado combo to crash them back down causing a massive explosion
Tying those special moves to a meter rather than the quick cyloop Needing to build up a meter by interacting with the normal combat mechanics without being able to erase them with one move by spamming it would definitely help these moves have some more weight to them and keep combat from getting monotonous by just having the solution immediately
The problem ain’t the homing attack Spider man 2 has the web strike a homing attack that launches you toward an enemy It’s the lack of depth with normal punches plus the moves
hello there GDubA, first of all, thank you for making this video as i can clearly see a lot of the flaws that this game's combat had but barely any one talk about it, glad to see that there is a video about those flaws, how ever, while i appreciate your take about how to improve Sonic's combat but, there might be an other way how to handle it which has to do with a game named as Sonic Momentum Sonic Momentum is a sonic fan game that from what i've seen did such unbelievable job in finding new ways to how sonic controls in 2D that it could really well compete against official 2D titles, and from what i've seen, it would be incredible to see some thing similar to what it does in 3D, and here are some videos that help understand how this game works Combat In The New Modern 2D Sonic Game Reinventing Tails’ Moveset in 2D Sonic Games Sonic Momentum's Combat i hope you take a look about ALL of those videos as each one of them are few minutes, and PLEASE, don't forget to tell me your openions in a reply about this fan game's combat mechanics once you see those videos and what they show of this fan game
the homing attack doesn't need to be removed just make it so that it translates your momentum when dashing onto the enemy and implement your mechanic there
Aye yo any modders in chat wanna give this a try? I honestly think I’d prefer it the way he’s describing, make the combat mean something feel free flowing like sonic
Wanna know the most EASY way to fix move spamming is giving every move the treatment a gage thta needs to be refilled with combos like the quick side loop, this is so easy for them to do that they already have the code for it just slap a combo gage in every move you do
You can actually start with the how i call them "boost attacks" (homing shot, loop kick, cross slash). The homing attack/punch and kick combo also i feel like are bridges between the flashy attacks to have like a good flow without needing to study like 5 button presses to do an attack. I get your point but i think they thought about that too. What i need to say is the speed thing and grand slam suggestion is genius
The worst part about frontiers' combat is that after just one island, the basic enemies can pull up shields at any point during your combo, forcing you to run a damn circle around them so you can keep fighting them. And you have to do it manually, coz after an insta cyloop, they just pull up another shield. its just not worth the hassle of fighting them.
I actually kinda like how Mindel was it is, it fits with Sonic since it’s easy to get into, tho I like your idea and the game looks pretty good with just tbh at one move. Also you can spindash and slide to an enemy so you technically don’t gotta homing attack.
Honestly I don’t mind the combat, prob bc combat is not really my type of gameplay so I don’t mind it, but to me the main problem are the controls, inputs can be delayed or doing moves bc you boost then press a button and do a move you don’t wanna, you target enemies you don’t wanna, collision is annoying with combat, and some more. Another banger vid dude
I think the issue that needs to be tackled is that, like you said, the homing attack is vital for platforming, which Frontiers has in the open zone. But it also hurts combat, which is also in the open zone. So I think the solution is simple. Just map the homing attack to a different button than punch. I mean, that's how it works in Spider-Man. You have the Web Strike to pull you towards an enemy, and then you punch things with Square. Course, that would mean mapping the homing attack to triangle which might not work as well for Cyber Space, as now the other button you'd be pressing the most is opposite of the jump button, and the Square button would be absolutely useless in cyber space, but... It's an option, I guess?
Really cool vid. I agree with your points. Every thing is started with homing attack, and then you just wait to parry. This game actually has good control feel overall, so the next game needs re-vamped combat. Then, we’ll have something truly addictive!
Going off on the phantom rush, maybe if you get a certain amount of hits you could go into a different style of sonics combat like a super sonic speed combat style like kingdom hearts 3 because in that game if you do enough damage you can get a form change
So perhaps using the spindash, or boost? Maybe take a page out of some animations from Sonic X? I think using boost/spindash in combat would really fit.
I think one issue with de homing attack is that you can use it on the ground too. And i think it could work better as a follow up attack instead of combo starter
Personally, I don’t really have any issue with the combat in frontiers, I just want them to expand upon it in later games that use this formula. I think they should keep the homing attack as part of his combat system, but they should lean into the other moves by adding some risk versus reward. For example, there’s one move where sonic spins around creating a vortex that can pick up multiple enemies. Maybe this one can deal out damage to multiple opponents but it’s very minimal damage and only a notable amount to the enemy be attacked started with. Conversely, some of the more powerful attacks will deal out a lot of damage, but only to one enemy and the others have a chance to attack you while you’re in the animation. From there, I think adding enemies that are immune to certain attacks but are vulnerable to others could be a nice way to encourage you to try out different moves and not just rely on the attack. (Personally I always loved experimenting with different moves to sonic flashiest, animations and combos, but it would be good to discourage, mindless button and mashing if possible
"combat is a big part of the game" i hear as i only remember fighting the titans and the mini bosses while the rest of the game was me running around collecting things.
Idk, sounds like it's what the counter attack is, just without having to counter i guess. Or just ramming into the enemy with the spinball. edit: phantom Rush enhancing all types of attacks sounds interesting, because the combat seriously needs something more than what it currently is.
And what about the Werehog combat in Unleashed? Frontiers wasn't even addressed as a beat em up or a hack n slash with comparisons to other games in that genre
Fun Fact: Hitboxes are like 90% fake news and just whittle away the HP of your target your lock onto Like a turn based game This is the secret Sonic RPG Izuka wanted all along
This game was for sure the worst piece of garbage I have ever played. It was a waste of time, it destroyed my crops, burned down my house, and took my family. Do not recommend. (Yall this is a joke calm down lmao)
Honestly this feels like an easy fix. Just give more approach options (like the transformers things) or stomping doing more damage from high above or something along with more varied enemies so homing attacking every time isn’t what u wanna do
Ik this is probably not gonna happen soon but I been saying for the longest platinum games would do Sonics combat so much justice I was playing nier automata and tmnt mutants in Manhattan and somehow both styles fit for sonic and working alongside sonic team I think they can make something amazing especially with other characters coming into the picture
This is a good take, but I think the homing attack works fine, and is too iconic of a move to scrap all-together. Here's what I think. 1. Give us a DMC style lock on feature so that we don't accidentally do attacks we didn't mean to. It's annoying when I'm just trying to jump or boost out of a combo, but then Sonic's like "Oh, you wanted to do a special attack? Ok. *Spins for a full 3 seconds against my will*". The homing attack would also only occur when using said lock-on function. 2. Make enemies smarter. Have them put up shields more often and make a system where enemies can break out of combos. In games like DMC, Hi-Fi Rush and Metal Gear Rising (all games with very good combat), enemies can *easily* break out of combos if the player messes up, making the combat more fulfilling, if you know how to NOT mess up. 3. Give Sonic more moves that stay on the ground and can drag in enemies. The main issue you seem to have with Frontiers' combat is that you can only kill enemies one at a time by mashing homing attack and juggling them with combos. If Sonic had more moves on the ground, perhaps different variations of the basic attack, which would be triggered by pressing the buttons in a different order, like in DMC (can you tell I want Sonic to take inspiration from Devil May Cry?) or Hi-Fi Rush, where if you wait a beat (literally, for Hi-Fi) it does a different combo. 4. I think phantom rush is the perfect reward for good gameplay, but I think it should, one, be based on style and not dmage, and, two, be mixed with the slow-mo from the parry. The parry should lose the slow-mo, and Sonic should instead move so fast during phantom rush that the rest of the world appears slower. It would be a lot harder to maintain, though, to balance out how busted the speed advantage would be. You'd get it, use it for a while, and only keep it going if you're practiced with the game. 5. Make. The. Parry. Timed. In every other videogame to ever utilize a parry function, you are expected to use it right before an enemy attacks, and are then rewarded with an opportunity to start a combo. I have no idea what they were even thinking with the Frontiers parry. Obviously they would have to make the enemies telegraph their attacks better, as well, to balance this. The Master King Koco trial was a load of bullshit solely because the titans were not designed for a timed parry. They were designed around the broken parry. 6. Give us a style rank for combat. It's just fun to watch the game tell you you're doing good with a letter grade, and Sonic games have had the E-A system since, SA2, and the S rank was supposedly added in Sonic Rush, according to a quick Google search. They could even have something similar to the DMC style-rank announcer, though they'd probably use words like "RADICAL" and "AWESOME", instead of "BADASS" and "SMOKIN' SEXY STYLE". I think this would result in perfect combat without sacrificing the good parts about Sonic Frontiers', already present, combat system.
my biggest problem with frontiers is that i lose all momentum because of homing attack , i mean even popping baloons takes away my momemtum, and the boost is kinda slow compared to every other boost sonic game specialy in cyberspace, and boost doesnt do any damage, i like just running around with boost and damage the enemys by boosting into them, it feels awsome to do it, if you play any other sonic game you can see that boost is way more fast and it actually does damage, that makes it so the enemy can't use meele attacks agaisnt you, and i love it, sonic is a game that you run at full speed, frontiers , just isnt the same thing, it's like a sonic adventure 3, but it doesnt have spindash unless you complete all the time trials, including the ones at the end of the game itself, it just doesnt feel the same thing as any other sonic game, and, i dont like it
Personally, I just hope they go back to the original idea they had for combat. At first, they wanted the combat to be inspired on Devil May Cry, but they rejected this idea because they wanted to give Frontiers an original combat system. I personally think they should go back to this idea and mix both. See what makes the combat for DMC works and implement it into their combat system while also making changes to keep it new and original.
I'm late to the party but i'll comment now. I usually don't comment under other sonictubers, but I thought this was a well thought out piece. Basing the entire combat system on o e move isn't a great idea, but I think they did a clever move by incorportaing plaform elements for the combat, like the tower enemies being easily defeatable by running on their bodies ro reach their head like you would running on the wall in many platforming challenges. I think they should go for that, or like you said go more for a classic character action combat akin to Platinum games like Transformers devastation or Bayonetta.
I disagree with this whole video, a better rep on how I want Sonic’s gameplay to be is Kingdom Hearts, that point you made about the analog stick I agree with because they def could’ve done something like that because they did do it but all of the analog angled combo finishers don’t have different effects on the enemies, like a drop kick dropping the enemy… or a dive kick stunning the enemy.
Wait is pressing a button not in fact you telling the game to do something for you? Telling the game to make you jump, boost, etc. etc. I know that’s not very important to the point but idk, I just thought I’d point out how weird it sounds in my opinion
Since Sonic won’t have cyber powers anymore, hope Sonic Team will utilize Sonic’s wind abilities n make sure that the combat won’t feel samey every time we defeat an opponent with a homing attack. I like the ghost enemy mostly cuz at least u can’t homing attack it mindlessly. Have to attack a pillar in order to finish off an enemy quickly or u lose rings. Hope there’s more unique enemies that will test the player’s brains n speed n give an intense feeling. And since Frontiers Update 3 adding other playable characters, I would like them to add assist attacks. Basically like Hi Fi Rush where u have to use certain assist to get rid of armor n attack head on. Plus I would like team assist in general for uncover sercet items, paths, abilities, etc. That or switch to a different playable character
my problem with frontiers that when you have maxed power the enemy's become way too easy to beat like I know you're at max level that kills enemy's faster but a better solution to this would be just do it how spider man ps4 did it how like when your maxed out the regular enemy's at least take like a lot of hits to even kill them but not that much but in frontiers your maxed out you go into Krono's the normal enemy's take one hit to kill which is very boring and new game + doesn't help ether they clam it's harder but to me it's super easy (but if you have extreme mode on it's at least a little better). also here's the other thing the enemy's heath's are WAY to low (Final Horizons fixes this not by a lot but good enough) all I'm saying is for the next frontiers style game make the enemy's harder to defeat and increase their health bars by a lot (Also add a drift so if you drift around the enemy's it would make them dizzy this with harder enemy's would be a lot of help also imo do the generations style drift I like it more it would give the illusion of spin dashing ig because me personally the boost has more potential than people think but I wouldn't mind the spin dash coming back but in a different gameplay style anyways that's all I had to say.
I would recommend playing sonic frontiers on level one for the entire time and that means no talking to the elder Coco or the hermit Coco because I'm currently playing this game on level one for all stats and I am playing it on hard mode and the game still feels easy and also it will be great if the next Sonic frontiers game has an arena in there that will allow you to practice all your skills that you have either on max level or on level one or even add challenges to the arena and also give us the option just switch between indefinite Parry and the type of Parry that requires a lot of skill and patience the master because in my opinion I do not want to hold the Parry button forever in order to Parry an enemy I want to be able to press it based on my timing if I screwed up on it then that's a good thing and then you can keep on practicing your Parry until you become a pro at it and when you have indefinite Parry it just takes away the chance for enemies to be threatening to you because you're just Parry no matter what do you know I want to be able to screw up on it and learning how to completely Master it would game feel more fun overall and especially on extreme mode where you can't take damage at all and one more thing that I want for the game is being able to turn off the tutorials because for those who are the experienced the game having someone telling you the basics again will feel like a pace breaker to your game so that way when I turn them off I have the option to do so instead of reading everything again
I can see why the Sonic Frontiers combat can be a problem for some players. I really don’t like how when you are fighting enemies you can like mash the A button to defeat them, and it feels very automated. 4:00 bro decide change this channel into a Transformers.
Auto-target charging attack are FAIRLY common in beat-em all/hack'n slash game. Sonic Frontier combat gameplay clearly takes on those genres. Those kind of moves exist so you don't get cut in your action by defeating one enemy from the mass. So after beating one ennemy, you can continue your combo by charging the next one directly. Or alternatively, do a quick swap upon changing a target. There's plenty missing in frontier combats, but the homing attack is not the problem. The problem is a lack of punishment to encourage you to do varieties. More counters other than a parry and one option after a dodge. A proper launch attack other than the loop to progress into aerial combo. Options after a landing attack. More range attack, perhaps some that makes you move a bit more rather than freezing you. But in the end, it's GOING to be mashy. There's no other way around. This isn't darksouls. You're attacking. You're attacking ennemies with a certain health pool, especially when it comes to guardians. So obviously you're going to hit the attack button a lot. beat-em all/hack'n slash game wants you to do long combo while being aware of your surroundings.
Another problem is that a lot of moves aren't cancelable, or at least inconsistent on whether or not you can cancel em'. So say like I do a stomp attack & I want to cancel it into a wild rush, but the move only cancels 40% of the time, the knocks down combo potential a lot. Plus, there's not enough moves & the way to do certain moves are finicky. Like literally any move that requires air boosting. Plus, at times you don't want to do one of those moves, but rather want to get in between enemies to do a stomp attack, but instead you use something else. Seriously, they should really have Platinum games help them with the next action Sonic game. (And coincidentally, they just so happen to be the ones who made Transformers Devastation.)
I don’t think the homing attack is the problem, hell most fighting games I’ve played have some sort of grapple move to close distance between the enemy.
My big issue is how low the homing attack is how delayed the impact is In the open zone, it makes sense, you need a window to press a button to attack further In Cyberspace though......why? Just why? You dont have access to your combat moves and everything dies in one hit anyway, so what's the point? And as for homing attacks standing as the only combo starter, that's not really true. You mentioned using Sonic speed to his advantage, what's stopping you from using Sonics speed to run in a circle with Cyloop and popping everyone in the air, perhaps starting with something like a loop kick, or if you can't, you can homing attack, and on the way, press a bumper and input a special move and Sonic opens with that instead. There's more depth in here than I think you gave credit. It's not gonna rival DMC, but still has some of that potential you alluded to
Eeeeerm acctttuuallly there’s one combo where you press one of the shoulder buttons then X you do an attack, therefore not every combo starts with a homing attack 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
I like this alot.. I went into video thinking it was gonna be someone just whining about the bland combat of frontiers.. but instead it was actual constructive criticism.. Its important to remember sonic team isn't fully familiar with This style of gameplay there last attempt was with the werehog where they.. kinda just copy other games at the time.. in frontiers they wanted a unique system that matches sonic but it fell short in some aspects the changes mentioned could very easily improve the combat system.. But I have something to add.. if sega continues with this system.. it needs to be important to more naturally weave sonic's moveset into combat.. like being able to easily chain a spin dash or drop dash in a combo..
I’m not really of a fan of combat at all outside of mini bosses or bosses. I think regular enemies should not have any combat at all with sonic blazing through them. They’re supposed to be easier and quick to get through. I’d more so alter the homing attack to two different types, one that keeps your momentum and one that bounces you up vertically like the traditional way. Both would be useful for different scenarios so we don’t just get boring homing attack chains. The combat for the mini bosses and bosses is nice because they’re harder enemies so sonic has to fight differently against these more durable enemies that are less frequent. Same goes for super sonic as well
nah I don't think Homing Attack is the problem, is a really unique combat system, but I understand the issue, and some day I wish to make my own Sonic Fangame with my own ideas for the combat using frontiers as a base. but well, lets see how they improve it on Frontiers 2
I'd rather they just throw out combat entirely. I have played and loved Transformers Devistatation, but I love that game for a different reason than I love Sonic games. Even good combat would be pace breaking in my high speed platformer, and I really don't want to see the next game be Sonic Devistation. Sonic enemies should die in one hit and Sonic bosses should be a platforming puzzle for the chance to hit them, not a Bayonetta clone.
I think the issue with Frontiers combat is too many moves have similar effects to each other
Imagine if Wild Rush, for example, let Sonic lock on to multiple enemies at the same time and travel from one to the other, sending whoever he hits flying, or it let him target one singular enemy for a powerful combo attack
See. The biggest issue is that I have no options, the game lets you do very little and everything blends together at the end of the day.
Personally I'd make wild rush only usable if you successfully dodge with the quickstep buttons
Speaking of the quickstep buttons, it should probably have more directions than just left and right, because who's playing a combat action game where the only real dodge buttons only have two directions?
Actually, come to think of it, it would be better to make it like your idea, but also incorporating the dodge. Maybe dodging adds a damage stack which will carry over to the next wild rush.
@@Yorigami32X that would be really cool
In my opinion, the Frontiers combat system is mostly for aesthetics because unless you disable the mode for zooming in on a specific move it shows Sonic giving his all with just low attack points. Compare that with Unleashed Werehog combat, Sonic the Werehog is a freak of nature
My biggest problem with Frontiers combat is that there is no punishment for just spaming moves.
The enemies just stand there as you watch a mini cutscene play out and dont do anything to counter other than making sheilds
You don't have to think of any creative ways to defeat the enemy. It's always just "which mini cutscene do you want to watch that does nothing but more damage"
Lastly the enemies dont scale go whatever level youre on
And the shields are so annoying that the best strategy is to prevent them triggering at all - by spamming ranged attacks.
@@ALegendaryBlueHedge facts, like
look at devil may cry
there’s a style meter, which is essential for S Ranks, spamming moves a certain number of times will stop filling the style gauge if you don’t mix up your toolkit. Why didn’t they implement something like that for Sonic?
@@NeonStudios763 because the game aint supposed to be as complicated as that bro, its a sonic game
@@amazingboi9388 If you make a combat focused game, one of the first things you should take into account is attack spamming, it’s just basic game dev. Besides, it doesn’t have to be 1 to 1 with DMC5.
The phantom Rush gauge could’ve had different tiers based on how well you fight, like dodging attacks, parrying, perfect parries, etc. Higher you raise the meter, more powerful the phantom rush gets. That way, you’re incentivized to interact with the combat system instead of “HEH HEH HEH, CROSS SLASH GO FWOOSH”
Man, i completely forgot Transformers: Devastation exists. An underrated gem fr
fr
@@GDubA what would you say is the best way to play it now? It seems they removed it from steam
@@KingK1421 You can only play it through the discs on PS4/5 and Xbox One/series x
That’s because platnium games made it and if u know who they are u also know their basically gods at making action games Ik this is probably not gonna happen soon but I been saying for the longest platinum games would do Sonics combat so much justice I was playing nier automata and tmnt mutants in Manhattan and somehow both styles fit for sonic and working alongside sonic team I think they can make something amazing especially with other characters coming into the picture
My take on a sonic combat system is that he shouldn't just focus on one enemy, but on all of them. For example, the sonic cd intro and outro animation, he plays with his enemies and confuses them to the point where he makes them destroy themselves. So in my dream sonic game, he could taunt a big enemy to attack him, and junp from one small enemy to another to avoid the big foe's attack, until all the smaller enemies are destroyed, or steal the weapon of an enemy and shoot at the other foes.
I don't really think the homing attack is really the biggest issue in Sonic Frontiers' combat. Kingdom Hearts 2 and Kingdom Hearts 3 also has this magnetism when attacking too but the combat in those games are pretty good. If anything, I think Sonic Frontiers needs better enemy design to encourage you to think more (like the enemies in Kingdom Hearts).
That's what the guardians are for. You can't just spam attacks on them. You have to figure out how to get an opening, and that requires you to do plenty of things that aren't just spamming attacks.
@@roiitzkovich4545 Most of the guardians require being good at platforming to beat rather than be good with the combat systems...
and the ones that do lean into raw combat only require you to use the parry to stun and just wail at them without much risk. There's very little real meaningful combat in Frontiers because the enemy encounters are too linear and one-note.
@@ConcavePgons 1. I enjoy the platforming gimmicks each guardian offers (except Shark for obvious reasons).
2. On Extreme difficulty you gotta get better with the combat to win. Half of my appreciation for the combat in Frontiers is thanks to my experience with Extreme difficulty. I started to come up with strategies and creative combos to efficiently beat enemies.
@@roiitzkovich4545Guardians (other than Ninja class) don't require existence of combat at all. They work like regular Sonic bosses where you just need to do stuff to unlock their hitbox. The rest of combat is just trying to spam time stopping attacks to not have to do the non-combat phase again.
@@Gnidel It makes sense to me that, in a platformer, boss fights will have some platforming.
Please, someone share this video with the Sonic Team, they need to hear this.
Just one thing... I think Sonic should hit while on the ground like in any fighting game by pressing the square button, and that to perform the homing attack you must jump first.
I think the homing attack should only be used for one-hit enemies, platforming or finishing enemies.
Agree
I...idk. I like it cause it allows you to close that distance but at the same time its not very good at times. idk
Probably a more in depth lock on system. While I like the idea of a homing attack, while I understand it’s too fast to be precise, I want a better way to select who or what I want to target. Even if it’s just a slow mo moment or brief selection with the right stick. Something that allows me to change a target on the fly and even innovate a combo to try and gather enemies altogether for a combo or just- deal with an enemy later if I already know there is a bigger threat. Feel like having something that displays the need for quick thinking along with a more flexible targeting system would honestly make it feel like I am thinking quick on my feet and taking advantage of speed instead of “oh, this guy’s the next target let’s go”
Another thing I’d like to see is probably a reward for not only running up to the enemy but memorizing attack patterns and dodging attacks, sure a parry is cool but if you know sonic colors and that amazing presentation to begin the game when sonic is storming through an army of egg bots. I want to nearly dodge attacks and take advantage of the enemies weak points without just- jumping away every single time. Or holding a single button.
As for the parry, as it stands I like it. But if it took some inspiration from sonic and the black knight for how you parry attacks in that game with the QTEs in mind, I’d say that might be kinda cool to see. Don’t know exactly how it would work, but I imagine it could maybe be a series of qtes or maybe a series of perfectly timed attacks or parries in a row.
imo they shouldve kept homing attack as A > A and just made X be a dedicated attack button. wouldve made it so much more fluid
1. I think they should add another attack button to add more depth to combos
2. Make it so you have to press multiple buttons to do the special moves instead of just one or two in a row
3. Have a real ground to air combat system instead of what we currently have were it’s just sonic floating in the air.
Yeah I agree
Me personally what i would change is the fact u can abuse the moves u unlock. Like why would i keep punching an enemy and stomp on them if u can just spam the sonic boom to defeat them.
This is kind of why I like using some combat mods. It doesn't fix the enemy design, but allows for better variation with sonic's moveset. For example: in hedgehog may cry (the remake version) homing shot does more than just awkwardly hit any for dmg. It actually pulls the enemy towards and allows you to set up for sonething else. I believe combat in frontiers can work out if sega actually takes the time to flesh out both, better enemy design, and a more refined moveset.
This doesn’t change much functionally, but I do think it is saying it would be nice if they implemented:
You know the special move? I think it would be cool if there’s a couple different animations that can happen when disability is used. Instead of it just being the same spin-dash buzz saw attack every time, I think it would be cool. Occasionally sonic performs some really cool combo or unique style to damage the opponent, kind of like what we saw in the Titan battles.
Think something kind of like when you perform a takedown in the Arkham games. Once you built up the combo and perform the takedown, you know, Batman is going to perform some move on an enemy to remove them from the battle, but you never know exactly what animation he’ll perform. One time he might break their arm, another time he might break their leg, or there’s even a chance he might just throw the enemy into the dirt. This means every time you perform it you’re going to be just as invested as the first time you pulled off the takedown because you never quite know which animation he’s going to perform and how brutal it will be.
Even sonic only had three takedown animations to go through, it would a little bit of variety. They don’t have to be super cool, some of them could be somewhat comedic. Maybe maybe lean into sonic super super speed by having him simply in enemy and have them land flat on their face when they tried charging you
Examples:
Animation one: Sonic does the whole Spindash into them then kick thing.
Animation two: Sonic uses Blue Tornado, then flies around like in Wild Rush before slamming into the enemy as a ball.
Animation three: Sonic slaps the enemy, whirling them around with wind energy, before getting into a running position and slamming into them with a Boost aura.
4:11 Gdub talking about Transformers before GTA6
After my time in Frontiers and seeing how some of that DNA hasn't been completely ironed out to a more refined state around Shadow Gens (The Biolizard fight looks cool, but gameplay-wise, it's kind of more of the same but now the Homing Attack has an animation of Shadow punching the Biolizard)...
It really could stand to have something to give it a bit of that Platinum Charm, so to speak.
A LOT of the moves in Frontiers kind of all do the same thing of "harm enemy" when in games like TF:Devastation (Peak TF game honestly, needs a sequel), the vehicle attack functions as a means to reward implementing speed into your combos, the parry in that game acts as a momentary stagger technique and allows the reward of combo extension, and while you have a basic combo, you ALSO have moves designed to get into the air, moves designed to send the enemies to the ground, etc.
Another thing that would really help Frontiers would ironically be the removal of the parry. The parry was a choice, but I think a dodge like in Devastation and Bayonetta would actually fit better for Sonic, where a parry is more for characters who aren't focused on speed.
If there's another thing that could be done, I think the best thing would be to instead nerf the Homing Attack in a combat setting. Instead of it being this be-all end-all, it should instead act like a Stinger technique designed to let you blitz to the enemy, and if there was a speed mechanic tied to the attacks, it could even reward speedy combat by certain enemies being destroyed in one hit, while other enemies can be staggered and put into a downed state for combos.
It allows for the best of both worlds, but does primarily focus on an aspect of making sure that if one doesn't pull off the speed, at least the combat would still feel engaging enough that we'd still find some fun in the action.
The homing attack is basically the web strike in spider man. It's a good opener and allows you to target enemies and get to them instantly. However what should be changed are the rest of the combat moves and enemy types. Either make it like Arkham/dmc combat where you need to use different techniques to overcome different enemy types or make it like spider man/god of war where it's just satisfying to chain combos together without many "cutscene" attacks.
I think the way spark the electric jester 3 handled the homing attack in relation to combat did it best, in that game you had small enemies that were your typical homing attack fodder used in platforming, but then you had stronger enemies with healthbars that you couldn’t homing attack, and had to actually fight with the game’s light-heavy combo system(I think you could homing attack them in spark 2, though it wouldn’t do any damage) it separates the homing attack from combat entirely and allows both it and the abilities meant for combat shine in the situations they were intended for.
While I don’t like spark 3’s combat much at all, the separation of fodder enemies and proper boss like ones is very appreciated.
Sorta reminds me of how the homing attack is used in Black Knight: you use it to set up an attack, it itself is not an attack, just buys you time to swing the sword
Good video dude
If they can polish up the next game with stuff like what you mentioned, Sonic will be back with great potential.
A personal gripe I have with Frontiers with the combat and game in general is that I wish the game recognized which enemies are apart of the mini platform challenges and which ones are out in the field for combat. Too many times have I done a platform challenge where the enemy is apart of the platform design and the game thinks I’m doing another move when I’m not
One other thing is that I really hope there’s a upgrade system of some sort with the skill tree where the game replaces the inferior moves that do the same thing. This way, the button inputs are way less cramped and it allows for Sonic Team to come up with a lot more moves. Basically, it gives more space for the inputs while allowing more original moves like any other action game
"Real Silver Frontiers" is the name of the mod that I will get for this. So if anyone else also wants to use that mod just type those words in and you'll be able to get to it.
I have been Stuck on an Idea I had maybe 1 year ago now Hear me out, Sonic but the Combat Gameplay is Asuras Wrath.
Sonic has the perfect move to do this. The roll can be used to introduce this system.
I don't think the homing attack makes the combat automated as long as you don't overrely on it. And why even would you? It's more beneficial to mix it up with other attacks to deal more damage and slow down the enemies so you'll have lengthier openings.
Also, other action games do that too. KH and DMC have attacks which send you close to an enemy, and those attacks are placed on the normal attack button. Therefore, if you really want it, you could spam the basic attack button and beat the game. Sure, in those games you'll find bosses that'll try to prevent you from spamming normal attacks, but the same applies to the guardians and titans in frontiers. You can't just spam square and see results.
But as for your idea of removing the homing attack so you'll have to manually close the gap. If you really wanna do that, I think the camera will have to be closer to Sonic.
As of now, the camera is distanced enough from sonic so you can still see what he's doing, but it doesn't do the best job at conveying his exact position in tight spots. It's why, when sonic does platforming in the open-zone, platforms aren't very small. The devs gave you some margin for error so you can comfortably land where you should, without having the precision of a computer, as well as giving you a good view of the surrounding area. When you climb the towers in Final Horizon, Sonic does tighter platforming than usual, but the camera is often close enough to him so you can tell where he'll land regardless.
That being said, Sonic and the enemies in Frontiers (the normal enemies, not the boss fights) aren't too big. As a result, positioning Sonic next to them and closing gaps manually seems like an annoyance. How should I position Sonic right next to an enemy without getting hit myself (especially annoying on extreme difficulty, which is how I prefer playing the game)? If the character models will be better seen to the player, positioning Sonic next to an enemy will not be a pickle.
Unfortunately, that'll also create other issues. If we're gonna bring the camera closer to Sonic so he'll have better positioning in combat, as a consequence of that, the platforming in the open zone will be hurt. Suddenly you wouldn't be able to tell well enough where to land when jumping and your view of the open zone will be more limited. The new camera will make the platforming and exploration in the open zone less enjoyable.
Considering you're doing a lot more platforming and exploration in Frontiers than combat, I'm afraid a change like the one you suggested will do more harm than good.
As for your second suggestion regarding the grand slam, I actually don't mind. I'd simply offer giving players a meter that indicates how close they are to a grand slam. Doing normal attacks will fill that meter quite slowly, trying different special attacks will fill it a bit faster and parrying attacks will fill it by a large amount. You could technically get a grand slam by landing normal hits, but it'll take a while. Therefore, players will be encouraged to try different attacks or perhaps parrying.
However, the slow-down Sonic gets after a parry should be kept. I enjoy landing some more damage on enemies after a parry thanks to them being frozen for a few seconds.
4:04 yesss either this or you know the thing that " sonic ripped off " even though by that logic mario ripped off popeye.
If the next mainline Sonic game has combat in it I want every combat move in the skill tree have a special property and with a combo system that rewards the player for making unique combos it could make the player stop avoiding the combat encounters like most players do in Frontiers.
I would also like it if they make skill animations last less time compared to special attacks in Frontiers so that it would encourage players adding variety to their attack patterns instead of mashing a single button.
Ive only ever seen gameplay of Transformers Devestation once or twice before (was never the biggest transformers fan, unfortunately) and now that you mention it, that would probably be perfect. Sonic is way too fast in movement speed to have as precise and complicated combat system as your DMCs, your Bayonettas, your MGRRs... But seeing the gameplay of Transformers Devastation, yeah, that definitely hits the spot for sonic.
I entirely disagree with this. If we look at any of the major character action systems that Frontiers takes inspiration from, DMC, Bayonetta, God Hand, etc. they all have single target lock on systems. Characters like Nero even have gap closing moves with his Devil Bringer. It's also just not true that you can't focus on more than one enemy in Frontiers. Cylooping a group of enemies breaks shields and launches them in the air. Baiting two or three enemies together and hitting them with a Cyloop and going in for a Cyclone Kick/Spin Slash is a great way to do crowd control. Breaking shields with a Cyloop, or juggling with Quick Cyloop, Sonic Boom, Cross Slash, or Cyclone Kick are an incredibly important part to the combat system.
As an aside, there's also this misconception that because these moves are powerful and can deal with enemies quickly, that somehow means this combat system is bad. The whole system, from the overpowered moves, to the RPG level system, to the way all the bosses have some method to be cheesed or skip phases, leads me to believe the goal of the combat was to make you defeat enemies *fast*. If DMC is about style, and GoW is about brutality, and Dark Souls is about dis-empowerment, Sonic Frontiers is about fighting fast in an open world platformer. With stuff like Battle Rush only ranking you on how fast you clear every enemy on the islands, not with a style system like DMC, I'm led to think that the goal of each fight is to win as fast as possible. The tools they give you to do this via exploring the open-zone, extra levels and skill points for new damaging moves, ties into this. Even the fact that the overall goal in a playthrough isn't to win fights with an S rank, but to collect the Chaos Emeralds, with each major boss testing your fundamental combat skills on a timer, also feeds into this. If you're speedrunning Frontiers, you wouldn't want to give a shit about getting style points and S ranks when fighting enemies or bosses, you just want to kill them. It's not like there isn't depth to beating enemies quickly either. You could build up Quick Cyloop against each individual enemy, then take them out one at a time, or you could bait them all together, cyloop the ones that aren't guarding, try and do so without taking damage from the incoming spikes/attacks, position your homing attack to get a Cyclone Kick or Spin Slash on all 3 of them, dodge cancel moves into each other, and take down an entire group in one go. The same applies to bosses, Cylooping and juggling Ninja enemies before they have a chance to disappear, jumping on top of Tower bosses and Quick Cylooping to their final phase immediately, jumping on top of Squid by memorizing its route instead of running on the path, etc. etc. Not all the bosses are like this; Shark is the worst boss for a reason, but when this combat system works, it blends speedy platforming and speedy combat in a way only Sonic really ever could.
Now I know I am a bit late. But I think I got a way to improve the combat, and it is simple. Sonic Team should take a similar approach to games like Genshin Impact and Wuthering Waves. The combat in those games are both simple but effective. With Wuthering Waves adding a bit more depth to it with the idea of perfect dodges and parrying enemies attacks by attacking them. Plus it can work with multiple playable characters. So basically when you encounter an enemy, Mini-Boss, Boss, or a group of enemies who has more health than the average one. Your character(Sonic, Tails, or Knuckles) enter combat mode.
Every character has a light attack button, heavy attack, and dodge skill. Writhe these are close melee, Mid Range, or Long Range attacks depends on what character you’re playing. Maybe a certain characters has mixed of all three or two types. You get 5 to 7 hits light attack combo on the ground and a light attack combo in the air. Of course with different animations. The same idea will also applies for Heavy Attacks that has more damage, but these will have less number of hits. One Heavy combo on the ground and a Heavy one in the air. Maybe the Heavy one always end in a some kind of plunge attack. Oh also the light and heavy buttons can be hold down/charge for different attacks. Next after that each character will have a certain number of combat skills or special attacks that takes the energy meter. I say at least 4 or 3 special attacks for every character. Plus maybe an ultimate. These are were the flashy moves comes in. Also I would make it that every character has a Homing attack. Make like the Super Dash from DBFighterZ. It’s the go to get in move and a get transition to other combos. Like say you doing a light attack combo and the end of it knocks the enemy either away or into the sky. Use the Homing Attack to chase them and continue the combo. Now should it be projectile in invulnerable? Idk maybe for some characters and/or some characters have different ranges for it to activate.
Now defense options. That simple. You have a dodge and are able to parry attacks. If you dodge at just the right time rather if it’s a melee or range attack from an enemy. A slow down effect will occur allowing you to get some hits in. Now for parry. I think should be two different ways to parry an enemy. The first way is similar to Frontiers. You just press the parry button at the right time and it will stun the enemy. Another way is by parry but instead by pressing the actual attack button right as the enemy attacks. Doing this will cancel the enemy attack and stun them. This will mostly work on melee attacks, but I can see it working on ranged as will in specific situations. And BOOM applies this to every character, make a game out of it, and we’re good to go.
So in short, beef with the concept of a lock-on system? How would you personally have manual lock-on and homing coexist? Your solution presents an alternative apprehension method but doesn't really seem viable for the coexistence of both the homing attack and the lock-on.
In my opinion a good amount of the new attacks in this game that can get unlocked when the player has collected enough skill points, look like ones that Silver the hedgehog could do with the use of his telekinesis, so I think that Frontiers should have had him be the playable character who uses those new attacks.
Which is one of the reasons why after I get my own gaming PC and download the PC port of Frontiers into it, I'll try to download a "Silver Render" mod that I've heard of that makes Sonic look like Silver in this game and that mod also has a few voicelines in it from Pete Capella (Silver's original English VA) mostly the iconic ones from Sonic 06 of: "It's no use!" and "Take this!" That dialogue gets triggered after a button to cause an attack gets pressed.
Frontiers' combat is fun but VERY flawed but it's main problem for me is that it doesn't even feel Sonic-like. Like Sonic throwing Ki-blasts and shit is cool but to me that should be reserved for Super Sonic. His base combat is really bland and generic in terms of what it does.
I mean when I think of Sonic combat I think of stylishly dodging enemies using your environment to attack them in cool ways. Not just... throwing punches. I mean when have we ever seen Sonic just straight up throw hands with somebody?? The Cyloop is the only move that feels Sonic-like becasue it incorporates his moveset and movement into the attack.
EDIT: I also would prefer a wind aesthetic over the lightning aura they have in Frontiers but that's just my personal preference.
Sonic been throwing hands since Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic X, etc
He's using the cyber energy. The "electricity" is just cyber energy. And sonic throws hands in the comics, especially in Archie.
I never thought I’d miss the lightspeed attack from sa1 u know when it basically gave sonic a power boost like Kaioken
There's a mod that replaces Sonic with Silver and it looks so much more natural cuz he has actual powers other than super speed (his psychokinesis)
Sonic has been throwing hands since Sonic the Fighters, but yeah barring bombs, I think Sonic Battle did a better job or representing Sonic as a fighter
GDubA talking about transformers caught me off guard 😯
I had a thought that the Homing Attack should be mapped to a different button just so it doesn’t have to be the starter for every combat chain. Maybe make it the top button instead of the left so you can start a combo without homing attack, similar to Spider-Man. I also agree with having skills being more rewarding to unlock, like what if Wild Rush is only able to be initiated by doing a perfect dodge. Imo makes the game’s combat system rewarding and fun to watch.
I've BEEN SAYING THIS, the higher the speed, the stronger the move. You get it.
Even more, I feel this can be used in different ways
Either you ram into an enemy, dealing high dmg and send them sky high, giving you the choice of chasing them down and sending them into the horde, or choosing to focus on the lack of enemies.
Or, you can activate Sonic Wind by circling the enemy at speed, lifting all enemies within the circle. Basically a better cyloop with no button press or limited usage, as long as you're at speed. Would work best with physics based gameplay rather than the boost gameplay (my right index regrets this game).
Afterwards, you can choose to use anything nearby to build up speed and enhance any attack.
To me, there should be a player toggle between combat and platforming, allowing you to choose if you want to fight and allowing you to tap out for a sec, then come barreling back in throwing hands.
The charging tackle mechanic you mentioned should definitely be able to transfer into an enemy surfing animation that you can ram into other enemies to launch them. It's more interactive, fits Sonic's personality, and creates openings for more flashy combos.
Also a chargeable homing attack that can bounce between enemies and actual dedicated launchers, we need that Sonic eagle.
This is just an animation nitpick but I always imagined Sonic dodging an attack should look like the instant transmission or the body flicker technique from Naruto. I personally think it would look way cooler if Sonic dodging was just him briefly disappearing then appearing a short distance away. But maybe that can be relegated to a perfect dodge animation.
Another animation nitpick for me is that Sonic should definitely be relying on his legs a lot more. Not saying he shouldn't be punching at all, but we should definitely be seeing more of that breakdancing/Capoeira style from Sonic battle.
The skill tree is fine but I think it should also include extended combos with flashier animations as apart of the upgrades.
Some of the moves Sonic already has can be tweaked to be multipurpose for combat and traversal, wild rush is a great example. Cyclone kick should also actually form a tornado that sticks around for bit and damages and launches enemies. It can also work for traversal with Sonic using the tornado as basically an extra powerful spring to launch himself high in the air.
A more extensive parkour system would be nice as well, look into Sonic Overdrive for an idea of where I want Sonic team to go with this. Basically that plus being able to wall run on pretty much anything if you have the speed. This, along with the dropdash would make for some absolutely godlike movement throughout the map. Super cinematic while still flowing well and being in full control.
The increased damage as you reach higher levels of speed is a great idea from you and makes so much sense I'm shocked Sonic Team didn't try it for Frontiers. This is such a great way to raise the skill ceiling, basically allowing you to play the game like it's a more traditional Sonic game with the one hit enemies as long as you can keep max speed. I can see myself running around for hours tearing through enemies and bouncing around the place kind of like that scene from the Sonic OVA.
This is what I think was missing from the combat and traversal in Frontiers. Sonic team seems to be nervous to really lean into the power fantasy of being a speedster on the level of Sonic. Let's hope they go crazy with the next open zone project.
Also,there should’ve been an unleash form for frontiers that could’ve been utilized for overpowering sonic like how it was with unleashed.And frontiers’ combat system doesn’t use all of its combat mechanics, you could defeat most of the open zone enemies with just a single attack. There is no variety to it unless it’s a semi hard boss like sumo,though.And by mechanics I mean different attacks that the game gives you not the approaches that you could use to stagger the enemies.It has different approaches but there is no difference in finishing.
My vision of combat is not exactly but i agree with you on some points i don't like the fact that there is no ground combat they should do both an ground combo that you can turn into an actual air combo .For the combat the homing attack just need to 1 shot enemies with no healthbars but against an enemy with an healtbar you need to punch and kick perform combo to unlock (like in unleashed) a finisher move .
I think that the game should be able to let you customize your combos and combat style (like emerl in sonic battle) bcz i don't really like the punch kick punch kick attack(its kinda repetitive).
I think that the phantom rush should be a button that you can press when you pick up rings, perform combos...and when the bar is you are able to press it. It 's gonna do the same things ( faster combos, extra damage) but with something like a short time invincibility Yea for me the phantom rush should more be like an unleashed bar (like in sonic unleashed)
And the ultimate thing for me is that you can find or buy accessories and clothes with rings and he give abilities (like sonic adventure1&2 ) if it's not new abilities it's extra damage extra speed higher jump example you can buy the basketball shoes in sonic and mario in olympic games and it give you 1 extra jump. And the eggman base that we see in kronos island can be where sonic equip new abilities new combos and new clothes like shoes ,gloves, socks like the arc on Transformers devastation (w game and w universe btw) and i really like your videos man
I’ve wanted Sonic Team to steal the Combat of Metal Gear Rising but now that you bring it up Transformers Devastation’s System does already work better for Sonic without needing to adjust so many things. Ok Sonic Team please Steal the Combat of Transformers Devastation, I don’t care if it’s shameless just do it because it’s cool and fits Sonic.
It’s funny that u mention those games because platnium games made em and if u know who they are u also know their basically gods at making action games Ik this is probably not gonna happen soon but I been saying for the longest platinum games would do Sonics combat so much justice I was playing nier automata and tmnt mutants in Manhattan and somehow both styles fit for sonic and working alongside sonic team I think they can make something amazing especially with other characters coming into the picture
@@Morbius-Tension Yeah I know.
Y'know this entire game really feels like ST stealing from other games that have similar features to it (climbing+koroks from BoTW, combat setpieces from Metal gear or something, etc)
I think there’s a way to revamp the homing attack
In rollin rascal when you do a homing attack you get launched after doing it
With Sonic if you hold the homing attack button Sonic could speed up as he approaches the enemy then launching him at a set speed, but if you hold back on the analog stick you could keep the combo going into a strong backhit then into a fast flurry of attacks sort of like Spider-Man in Web of Shadows if you hold down the button.
Followed by several bounces into a large AOE and if you time your presses launches the enemy into another one and they bounce off of each other causing their guard to be broken.
Then you can initiate the light speed attack to destroy them and also chip away at nearby targets as it should have an AOE that’s not as strong but brings them closer to Sonic. Once the attack is finished he boosts through them all and knocks any who are in his way off their feet staggering them
And if he does enough combos he can activate blue tornado briefly causing him to appear in multiple places allowing him to shred through groups of enemies for a second or repeatedly if you hold the button. The attack will do less damage over time, but leaves the enemy staggered for longer and sends them all flying away causing devastating collateral damage as they bump into each other or other enemies who weren’t caught in the tornado.
Finally he can activate a Sonic Boom that breaks guards and staggers nearby enemies. Sonic is now super fast and can attack multiple targets at once leaving them stunned and act as bombs if knocked away with a powerful attack and cause sonic booms that aren’t as powerful but stun multiple enemies
Sonic can follow with a spin dash to knock them up and and do a massive tornado combo to crash them back down causing a massive explosion
Tying those special moves to a meter rather than the quick cyloop
Needing to build up a meter by interacting with the normal combat mechanics without being able to erase them with one move by spamming it would definitely help these moves have some more weight to them and keep combat from getting monotonous by just having the solution immediately
The problem ain’t the homing attack
Spider man 2 has the web strike a homing attack that launches you toward an enemy
It’s the lack of depth with normal punches plus the moves
hello there GDubA, first of all, thank you for making this video as i can clearly see a lot of the flaws that this game's combat had but barely any one talk about it, glad to see that there is a video about those flaws, how ever, while i appreciate your take about how to improve Sonic's combat but, there might be an other way how to handle it which has to do with a game named as Sonic Momentum
Sonic Momentum is a sonic fan game that from what i've seen did such unbelievable job in finding new ways to how sonic controls in 2D that it could really well compete against official 2D titles, and from what i've seen, it would be incredible to see some thing similar to what it does in 3D, and here are some videos that help understand how this game works
Combat In The New Modern 2D Sonic Game
Reinventing Tails’ Moveset in 2D Sonic Games
Sonic Momentum's Combat
i hope you take a look about ALL of those videos as each one of them are few minutes, and PLEASE, don't forget to tell me your openions in a reply about this fan game's combat mechanics once you see those videos and what they show of this fan game
the homing attack doesn't need to be removed just make it so that it translates your momentum when dashing onto the enemy and implement your mechanic there
Aye yo any modders in chat wanna give this a try? I honestly think I’d prefer it the way he’s describing, make the combat mean something feel free flowing like sonic
Wanna know the most EASY way to fix move spamming is giving every move the treatment a gage thta needs to be refilled with combos like the quick side loop,
this is so easy for them to do that they already have the code for it just slap a combo gage in every move you do
You can actually start with the how i call them "boost attacks" (homing shot, loop kick, cross slash). The homing attack/punch and kick combo also i feel like are bridges between the flashy attacks to have like a good flow without needing to study like 5 button presses to do an attack. I get your point but i think they thought about that too. What i need to say is the speed thing and grand slam suggestion is genius
The worst part about frontiers' combat is that after just one island, the basic enemies can pull up shields at any point during your combo, forcing you to run a damn circle around them so you can keep fighting them. And you have to do it manually, coz after an insta cyloop, they just pull up another shield. its just not worth the hassle of fighting them.
Bro. Thank you for speaking on this.
I actually kinda like how Mindel was it is, it fits with Sonic since it’s easy to get into, tho I like your idea and the game looks pretty good with just tbh at one move. Also you can spindash and slide to an enemy so you technically don’t gotta homing attack.
Honestly I don’t mind the combat, prob bc combat is not really my type of gameplay so I don’t mind it, but to me the main problem are the controls, inputs can be delayed or doing moves bc you boost then press a button and do a move you don’t wanna, you target enemies you don’t wanna, collision is annoying with combat, and some more. Another banger vid dude
Thank you!
I think the issue that needs to be tackled is that, like you said, the homing attack is vital for platforming, which Frontiers has in the open zone. But it also hurts combat, which is also in the open zone.
So I think the solution is simple. Just map the homing attack to a different button than punch. I mean, that's how it works in Spider-Man. You have the Web Strike to pull you towards an enemy, and then you punch things with Square. Course, that would mean mapping the homing attack to triangle which might not work as well for Cyber Space, as now the other button you'd be pressing the most is opposite of the jump button, and the Square button would be absolutely useless in cyber space, but... It's an option, I guess?
Really cool vid. I agree with your points. Every thing is started with homing attack, and then you just wait to parry.
This game actually has good control feel overall, so the next game needs re-vamped combat. Then, we’ll have something truly addictive!
Going off on the phantom rush, maybe if you get a certain amount of hits you could go into a different style of sonics combat like a super sonic speed combat style like kingdom hearts 3 because in that game if you do enough damage you can get a form change
Peak mentioned?
You are now officially the best sonictuber.
aint no way its the dude with the best song in the game in my comments
So perhaps using the spindash, or boost? Maybe take a page out of some animations from Sonic X? I think using boost/spindash in combat would really fit.
I think one issue with de homing attack is that you can use it on the ground too.
And i think it could work better as a follow up attack instead of combo starter
100% agree
Personally, I don’t really have any issue with the combat in frontiers, I just want them to expand upon it in later games that use this formula.
I think they should keep the homing attack as part of his combat system, but they should lean into the other moves by adding some risk versus reward.
For example, there’s one move where sonic spins around creating a vortex that can pick up multiple enemies. Maybe this one can deal out damage to multiple opponents but it’s very minimal damage and only a notable amount to the enemy be attacked started with. Conversely, some of the more powerful attacks will deal out a lot of damage, but only to one enemy and the others have a chance to attack you while you’re in the animation.
From there, I think adding enemies that are immune to certain attacks but are vulnerable to others could be a nice way to encourage you to try out different moves and not just rely on the attack. (Personally I always loved experimenting with different moves to sonic flashiest, animations and combos, but it would be good to discourage, mindless button and mashing if possible
I just don’t like the delay of the homing attack after you hit it because in cyber space it can take up a lot of time if your going for the s rank
"combat is a big part of the game" i hear as i only remember fighting the titans and the mini bosses while the rest of the game was me running around collecting things.
I do agree that the combat is ass but i don't think it's a big deal in this game since i've neve used it that much
Ahhh I'm early ! I've always loved your videos
Glad you like them!
Idk, sounds like it's what the counter attack is, just without having to counter i guess.
Or just ramming into the enemy with the spinball.
edit: phantom Rush enhancing all types of attacks sounds interesting, because the combat seriously needs something more than what it currently is.
And what about the Werehog combat in Unleashed? Frontiers wasn't even addressed as a beat em up or a hack n slash with comparisons to other games in that genre
Fun Fact: Hitboxes are like 90% fake news and just whittle away the HP of your target your lock onto
Like a turn based game
This is the secret Sonic RPG Izuka wanted all along
This game was for sure the worst piece of garbage I have ever played. It was a waste of time, it destroyed my crops, burned down my house, and took my family. Do not recommend. (Yall this is a joke calm down lmao)
Ok twitter
I remember you from my videos and you just hated for the sake of it, and here you still are 😂😂
@@sagecentral1809 I don't even know you lol
While I think the base game is fine you can always use mods
@@SuperDuckyPlaysGames you commented on my videos over a year ago now
Is this the Nintendo switch version
Honestly this feels like an easy fix.
Just give more approach options (like the transformers things) or stomping doing more damage from high above or something along with more varied enemies so homing attacking every time isn’t what u wanna do
Ik this is probably not gonna happen soon but I been saying for the longest platinum games would do Sonics combat so much justice I was playing nier automata and tmnt mutants in Manhattan and somehow both styles fit for sonic and working alongside sonic team I think they can make something amazing especially with other characters coming into the picture
This is a good take, but I think the homing attack works fine, and is too iconic of a move to scrap all-together. Here's what I think.
1. Give us a DMC style lock on feature so that we don't accidentally do attacks we didn't mean to. It's annoying when I'm just trying to jump or boost out of a combo, but then Sonic's like "Oh, you wanted to do a special attack? Ok. *Spins for a full 3 seconds against my will*". The homing attack would also only occur when using said lock-on function.
2. Make enemies smarter. Have them put up shields more often and make a system where enemies can break out of combos. In games like DMC, Hi-Fi Rush and Metal Gear Rising (all games with very good combat), enemies can *easily* break out of combos if the player messes up, making the combat more fulfilling, if you know how to NOT mess up.
3. Give Sonic more moves that stay on the ground and can drag in enemies. The main issue you seem to have with Frontiers' combat is that you can only kill enemies one at a time by mashing homing attack and juggling them with combos. If Sonic had more moves on the ground, perhaps different variations of the basic attack, which would be triggered by pressing the buttons in a different order, like in DMC (can you tell I want Sonic to take inspiration from Devil May Cry?) or Hi-Fi Rush, where if you wait a beat (literally, for Hi-Fi) it does a different combo.
4. I think phantom rush is the perfect reward for good gameplay, but I think it should, one, be based on style and not dmage, and, two, be mixed with the slow-mo from the parry. The parry should lose the slow-mo, and Sonic should instead move so fast during phantom rush that the rest of the world appears slower. It would be a lot harder to maintain, though, to balance out how busted the speed advantage would be. You'd get it, use it for a while, and only keep it going if you're practiced with the game.
5. Make. The. Parry. Timed. In every other videogame to ever utilize a parry function, you are expected to use it right before an enemy attacks, and are then rewarded with an opportunity to start a combo. I have no idea what they were even thinking with the Frontiers parry. Obviously they would have to make the enemies telegraph their attacks better, as well, to balance this. The Master King Koco trial was a load of bullshit solely because the titans were not designed for a timed parry. They were designed around the broken parry.
6. Give us a style rank for combat. It's just fun to watch the game tell you you're doing good with a letter grade, and Sonic games have had the E-A system since, SA2, and the S rank was supposedly added in Sonic Rush, according to a quick Google search. They could even have something similar to the DMC style-rank announcer, though they'd probably use words like "RADICAL" and "AWESOME", instead of "BADASS" and "SMOKIN' SEXY STYLE".
I think this would result in perfect combat without sacrificing the good parts about Sonic Frontiers', already present, combat system.
my biggest problem with frontiers is that i lose all momentum because of homing attack , i mean even popping baloons takes away my momemtum, and the boost is kinda slow compared to every other boost sonic game specialy in cyberspace, and boost doesnt do any damage, i like just running around with boost and damage the enemys by boosting into them, it feels awsome to do it, if you play any other sonic game you can see that boost is way more fast and it actually does damage, that makes it so the enemy can't use meele attacks agaisnt you, and i love it, sonic is a game that you run at full speed, frontiers , just isnt the same thing, it's like a sonic adventure 3, but it doesnt have spindash unless you complete all the time trials, including the ones at the end of the game itself, it just doesnt feel the same thing as any other sonic game, and, i dont like it
Personally, I just hope they go back to the original idea they had for combat.
At first, they wanted the combat to be inspired on Devil May Cry, but they rejected this idea because they wanted to give Frontiers an original combat system.
I personally think they should go back to this idea and mix both.
See what makes the combat for DMC works and implement it into their combat system while also making changes to keep it new and original.
I'm late to the party but i'll comment now. I usually don't comment under other sonictubers, but I thought this was a well thought out piece. Basing the entire combat system on o e move isn't a great idea, but I think they did a clever move by incorportaing plaform elements for the combat, like the tower enemies being easily defeatable by running on their bodies ro reach their head like you would running on the wall in many platforming challenges. I think they should go for that, or like you said go more for a classic character action combat akin to Platinum games like Transformers devastation or Bayonetta.
Its ok.....a fishing game with 3 great bosses and 2 mid bosses. 7/10
I disagree with this whole video, a better rep on how I want Sonic’s gameplay to be is Kingdom Hearts, that point you made about the analog stick I agree with because they def could’ve done something like that because they did do it but all of the analog angled combo finishers don’t have different effects on the enemies, like a drop kick dropping the enemy… or a dive kick stunning the enemy.
4:17a.m. 8/19/2024
Wait is pressing a button not in fact you telling the game to do something for you? Telling the game to make you jump, boost, etc. etc. I know that’s not very important to the point but idk, I just thought I’d point out how weird it sounds in my opinion
Since Sonic won’t have cyber powers anymore, hope Sonic Team will utilize Sonic’s wind abilities n make sure that the combat won’t feel samey every time we defeat an opponent with a homing attack. I like the ghost enemy mostly cuz at least u can’t homing attack it mindlessly. Have to attack a pillar in order to finish off an enemy quickly or u lose rings. Hope there’s more unique enemies that will test the player’s brains n speed n give an intense feeling. And since Frontiers Update 3 adding other playable characters, I would like them to add assist attacks. Basically like Hi Fi Rush where u have to use certain assist to get rid of armor n attack head on. Plus I would like team assist in general for uncover sercet items, paths, abilities, etc. That or switch to a different playable character
my problem with frontiers that when you have maxed power the enemy's become way too easy to beat like I know you're at max level that kills enemy's faster but a better solution to this would be just do it how spider man ps4 did it how like when your maxed out the regular enemy's at least take like a lot of hits to even kill them but not that much but in frontiers your maxed out you go into Krono's the normal enemy's take one hit to kill which is very boring and new game + doesn't help ether they clam it's harder but to me it's super easy (but if you have extreme mode on it's at least a little better).
also here's the other thing the enemy's heath's are WAY to low (Final Horizons fixes this not by a lot but good enough) all I'm saying is for the next frontiers style game make the enemy's harder to defeat and increase their health bars by a lot (Also add a drift so if you drift around the enemy's it would make them dizzy this with harder enemy's would be a lot of help also imo do the generations style drift I like it more it would give the illusion of spin dashing ig because me personally the boost has more potential than people think but I wouldn't mind the spin dash coming back but in a different gameplay style anyways that's all I had to say.
I would recommend playing sonic frontiers on level one for the entire time and that means no talking to the elder Coco or the hermit Coco because I'm currently playing this game on level one for all stats and I am playing it on hard mode and the game still feels easy and also it will be great if the next Sonic frontiers game has an arena in there that will allow you to practice all your skills that you have either on max level or on level one or even add challenges to the arena and also give us the option just switch between indefinite Parry and the type of Parry that requires a lot of skill and patience the master because in my opinion I do not want to hold the Parry button forever in order to Parry an enemy I want to be able to press it based on my timing if I screwed up on it then that's a good thing and then you can keep on practicing your Parry until you become a pro at it and when you have indefinite Parry it just takes away the chance for enemies to be threatening to you because you're just Parry no matter what do you know I want to be able to screw up on it and learning how to completely Master it would game feel more fun overall and especially on extreme mode where you can't take damage at all and one more thing that I want for the game is being able to turn off the tutorials because for those who are the experienced the game having someone telling you the basics again will feel like a pace breaker to your game so that way when I turn them off I have the option to do so instead of reading everything again
I can see why the Sonic Frontiers combat can be a problem for some players. I really don’t like how when you are fighting enemies you can like mash the A button to defeat them, and it feels very automated. 4:00 bro decide change this channel into a Transformers.
Bro that game is so goated what can I say
@@GDubA That’s true
Transformers phase?
Yes
Auto-target charging attack are FAIRLY common in beat-em all/hack'n slash game.
Sonic Frontier combat gameplay clearly takes on those genres.
Those kind of moves exist so you don't get cut in your action by defeating one enemy from the mass. So after beating one ennemy, you can continue your combo by charging the next one directly. Or alternatively, do a quick swap upon changing a target.
There's plenty missing in frontier combats, but the homing attack is not the problem. The problem is a lack of punishment to encourage you to do varieties. More counters other than a parry and one option after a dodge. A proper launch attack other than the loop to progress into aerial combo. Options after a landing attack. More range attack, perhaps some that makes you move a bit more rather than freezing you.
But in the end, it's GOING to be mashy. There's no other way around. This isn't darksouls.
You're attacking. You're attacking ennemies with a certain health pool, especially when it comes to guardians. So obviously you're going to hit the attack button a lot.
beat-em all/hack'n slash game wants you to do long combo while being aware of your surroundings.
How do you play transformers devastation on pc?
I don’t got a PC I just played it on Xbox One with a copy I got off eBay
Cant find a way to play Transformers Devastation :(
I dont have a PS4. PS3 emulation isnt really good. Steam doesn't have it anymore. etc
yeah it's sadly a delisted gem.
Another problem is that a lot of moves aren't cancelable, or at least inconsistent on whether or not you can cancel em'. So say like I do a stomp attack & I want to cancel it into a wild rush, but the move only cancels 40% of the time, the knocks down combo potential a lot. Plus, there's not enough moves & the way to do certain moves are finicky. Like literally any move that requires air boosting. Plus, at times you don't want to do one of those moves, but rather want to get in between enemies to do a stomp attack, but instead you use something else. Seriously, they should really have Platinum games help them with the next action Sonic game. (And coincidentally, they just so happen to be the ones who made Transformers Devastation.)
Platinum be so goated sometimes
I don’t think the homing attack is the problem, hell most fighting games I’ve played have some sort of grapple move to close distance between the enemy.
My big issue is how low the homing attack is how delayed the impact is
In the open zone, it makes sense, you need a window to press a button to attack further
In Cyberspace though......why? Just why? You dont have access to your combat moves and everything dies in one hit anyway, so what's the point?
And as for homing attacks standing as the only combo starter, that's not really true. You mentioned using Sonic speed to his advantage, what's stopping you from using Sonics speed to run in a circle with Cyloop and popping everyone in the air, perhaps starting with something like a loop kick, or if you can't, you can homing attack, and on the way, press a bumper and input a special move and Sonic opens with that instead. There's more depth in here than I think you gave credit. It's not gonna rival DMC, but still has some of that potential you alluded to
Transformers Devastation and Sonic mentioned together? I know who you are, MariusUrucu.
lmao that guy is a legend
Eeeeerm acctttuuallly there’s one combo where you press one of the shoulder buttons then X you do an attack, therefore not every combo starts with a homing attack 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
He could do this using the spindash
Thanks for the transformers recommendation I have a copy laying around
I like this alot.. I went into video thinking it was gonna be someone just whining about the bland combat of frontiers.. but instead it was actual constructive criticism..
Its important to remember sonic team isn't fully familiar with This style of gameplay there last attempt was with the werehog where they.. kinda just copy other games at the time.. in frontiers they wanted a unique system that matches sonic but it fell short in some aspects the changes mentioned could very easily improve the combat system..
But I have something to add.. if sega continues with this system.. it needs to be important to more naturally weave sonic's moveset into combat.. like being able to easily chain a spin dash or drop dash in a combo..
Man… can PlatinumGames please make a Sonic game
1 DAY LATE SQUAD WHERE YOU AT?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
I’m not really of a fan of combat at all outside of mini bosses or bosses. I think regular enemies should not have any combat at all with sonic blazing through them. They’re supposed to be easier and quick to get through. I’d more so alter the homing attack to two different types, one that keeps your momentum and one that bounces you up vertically like the traditional way. Both would be useful for different scenarios so we don’t just get boring homing attack chains. The combat for the mini bosses and bosses is nice because they’re harder enemies so sonic has to fight differently against these more durable enemies that are less frequent. Same goes for super sonic as well
The biggest problem with frontiers combat.
It sucks
Sonic Team should steal the combat system from their sister Platinum games look a Bayonetta.
nah I don't think Homing Attack is the problem, is a really unique combat system, but I understand the issue, and some day I wish to make my own Sonic Fangame with my own ideas for the combat using frontiers as a base.
but well, lets see how they improve it on Frontiers 2
I'd rather they just throw out combat entirely.
I have played and loved Transformers Devistatation, but I love that game for a different reason than I love Sonic games.
Even good combat would be pace breaking in my high speed platformer, and I really don't want to see the next game be Sonic Devistation.
Sonic enemies should die in one hit and Sonic bosses should be a platforming puzzle for the chance to hit them, not a Bayonetta clone.
The problem with Frontiers period.
another w video by GDubA