Fred has been collecting and selling OG Blue Notes since the mid 1980s. He is the widely acknowledged global expert on Blue Note first pressings. His book, "Blue Note Records A Guide For Identifying Original Pressings," confirms his research and expertise, as do his globally recognized auctions, also in operation since the mid 80s, pre Internet. Fred has the records, integrity, sales figures, satisfied customers, and history to back it up. The following quote refers to Blue Note catalog numbers, which is standard collectors' parlance, not album titles. "The New York 23 label had a very short shelf life, appearing on 1544-1559, 1561-1563, 1565, and 1576. It appears on either Side 1 or Side 2 of 1575 and 1577, but never been seen on both sides. Inasmuch as 1577 is clearly the demarcation point for the NY 23 label, it very rarely shows up. The fact that it is a rarity on a Coltrane LP only makes it all the more desirable. No one knows how many of these were pressed." Fred Cohen
I have shopped at the jazz record center on several occasions. I found Fred to be a wonderful person who took the time to explain things and answer questions . I view these types of sales as a work of art that the buyer will preserve and perhaps share with others . Best to Fred and thanks for his contributions
Ken Thank you for sharing this. I totally agree. I once obtained some 1st pressing like Kenny Burrell BLP 1523 Lee Morgan The Cooker. Those originals have different aura, sort of sacred just holding them. Blue Note back in those days especially in the 50's are not just music to play, it is the art.
A few years ago, you've talked about the original Jimmy Smith LPs on Blue Note. You've said these LPs didn't have the attention of collectors. They were easily available and at an affordable price. I've bought most of those original LPs on Ebay and Discogs. The average price for those LPs with covers in great condition was about $50.00 to $60.00. I'm so happy I've followed your advice back then. Thank you Ken ! - from an happy collector !
My $12,600.02: 1. I agree, the physical properties of originals are primarily what make them special. They are truly unique and a testament to the quality control of the era they are from. 2. These prices do not surprise me, and in fact, I'm surprised that these rare original Blue Notes don't go for closer $50k yet. I think they will some day not too far in the future. There are a lot of people in the world for whom $12,000 is a drop in the bucket and they are getting more and more interested in vintage jazz records. Me? I gave up on these original pressings years ago. They're like stars in a universe that is expanding at an accelerating rate: out of reach and moving away faster and faster. I've made my peace with it and I'm happy enjoying the music in other formats. :)
I agree there is something magical and awe inspiring about handling a gorgeous near mint jazz record from the 50s. I can’t imagine being in the presence of something like a Blue Train original, but thankfully I’ve experienced that feeling from having some under-appreciated and more affordable Blue Note, Prestige, Verve, and Urania records.
As far as shrink wrapping for LP jackets - I have read that before that became standard packaging from record manufacturers, the loose-fitting sealed poly bags on LPs were put on by record shops, especially some in NYC. So, those records were shipped with no outer protective wrap in the boxes.
Love your videos , I’m from a small Canadian province , but when I got to New York for a few days ,I had to go to jazz record center , so when I listen to you ,as well as your knowledge, and opinions, but I’m also taken back to New York , anyway ,you have a special channel , your the real deal . Thanks
Great video, Ken. I completely agree with you about the whole topic of LP collecting. Like you said, if someone has the cash, more power to them. Also, I was so pleased to hear about the Jazz Record Center, and Fred Cohen; I used to shop there occasionally during the late 80’s and through the 90’s, when I was still living in NYC. It is an amazing place to buy Jazz records. My last time there was in 2011 on a short visit to NY, and I bought some great Jazz DVDs and a small Gene Krupa poster, to bring back to Texas. I’m now retired and living in Mexico…..
How cool is that! The beauty of this sale is it went from people who love and appreciate the artifact to someone else who also loves and appreciates the artifact. No obsession with how much profit was made, simply being part of the chain. Having held the thing is the kick.
Eloquent as ever Ken. Fascinating video. I’m in NZ and have never seen an original Blue Note, maybe one day I’ll come to NY and visit the Jazz Record Center.
I visited the Jazz Record Centre when I was in New York a few years ago and bought some amazing stuff. I love the shop, you have to know it is there or you would walk right by
The only original Blue Note I have is Lou Donaldson's "Gravy Train" which to my knowledge has never been reissued on LP, unsure of reason. I have many AP, MM & Tone Poet reissues.
Hi Ken, you raised some good thoughts in this video. I agree with most of what you said. It is worth considering what the collector does with the work of art they have purchased. It is fantastic if the record enters the collection of a music lover. That means it will be well looked after and form part of a valuable record collection. But if the record is purchased as a financial opportunity that may bring a higher dollar return down the track, it is no longer a beautiful work of art but simply a commercial object to be traded in the market! Your videos are first rate and always good viewing!
It was amazing to see this happening when everyone thought vinyl was death. I'll be in NY this weekend. I hope to see you at the Jazz record centre. Great video thanks for sharing Fred's story 👍🏻
Pretty impressive Ken. Thank you for posting. Think there are 2 things driving the prices on collectable vinyl. 1. as you noted the rise in pure interest in collecting vinyl records globally vs buying downloads. 2. Rapid rise in inflation over the last few years. The second also applies to high end audio. Amps that were 20k 5-10 years ago are now 40K. High end speakers have greatly outstripped the inflation rate. 10-12 years ago spending more than 50K on a pair of speakers was not too common unless a person was buying a large pair of Wilsons. Today 50K is a common mid-level price point that is still a long ways from the top end models. On the original Blue Notes most of those pressing runs were pretty small. The original market for these titles was specialize and small, and these were pressed back in an era where many folks were still used to playing 78s, where once they were played 40 times or so they were worn out. JMO, but I think a lot of that same perspective (play a record until it wears out) carried into the early days of the Vinyl LP. If a person compares the US Blue Note Pressing quantities to the Japan Blue Note pressing volumes or the new Tone Poets, these later pressing runs are much, much larger. Was not uncommon for Toshiba or King in Japan to do 10k pressing runs. Would guess the same is true with the new Tone Poets and Classic series.
Suggestion: A record - an LP, a 7" - is to music what a photo is to a painted masterpiece. In that construct, this Coltrane LP is, in a way, a first generation picture of the master. What is it worth? Whatever someone is willing to pay!
I'm totally agree about what you said. I just took this one in my hands again after watching your video and this is really magical ! You can't really explain this if you didn't touch those Blue Note original albums .... I really LOVE their 10 inches .... maybe more magical than the LP's, to me.
If you’ve got that kind of money to purchase an original blue note, then you must have an amazing revealing system to enjoy it on so I’m OK with that. I’m more upset by the absurd LP prices over the last few years. I’m happy enough with my 1985 blue train CD in AAD. Would rather spend my time listening to my entire collection.
I wish I had the ears to appreciate differences in pressings. On the other hand, I can enjoy a fine performance, and not having to pay astronomical prices is somewhat of a blessing.
Love a good OG Blue Note Mono Pressing. Glad I bought all of mine years ago before things got way out of hand. My idea of rare though these days is in 78s. Those guys are digging for gold and everyone else is looking for rust off of a Pinto IMO.
Ken, Liberty pressings of key Blue Notes hover between $125 - $250 now-a-days. Also, I suspect the premiums being paid for these records has more to due with the JRC's reputation, and command 2x - 6x the fair market value. I think these records have never been played before. I was the one who (over)paid for that Miles Davis 'Steamin'....partially because I was sick and tired of getting outbid by a vinyl knit at the last minute. I will keep bidding on JRC auctions...with the notion that JRC records have an immaculate provenance.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455I just bought my first Degritter Mark II (anxious for its arrival as there is a severe backlog). I suspect Fred's apprehension of using tech is not limited to ultrasonic cleaners...and for good reason. Fred's a cultural treason. I will be flying to NYC in May to meet you two on a Saturday. Be sure to tell him hello for me.
Ken in terms of sound... I have always assumed that the quality is the same for all early pressings with RVG stamp and Plastelite ear. Then with a slight drop off on other early pressings with RVG and no plastelight ear including liberty pressings. Do you concur? BTW Kenny Durham and the Jazz Prophets on ABC Paramount?
The collectors are doctors and lawyers. The same kind of collectors that drive the price of some acoustic guitars over $100,000. Never play them...just collect them as investments.
Nice job, Ken. Like you said, power to the buyer. As far as an investment, though, I wonder, what will be worth more in 30 years: this record or $12.6k invested in and S&P fund? My money would be on the S&P but this cat can surely do both. Nice to hear Fred thinks the RSD Bill Evans releases will do well--I have spent way too much on way too many of those... maybe my ship will come in.
I wouldn’t, because I buy records to listen to them on an old HMV console, not as a collector or audiophile. But, I get that others have different priorities and interests and I’m glad somebody is appreciating and preserving these.
I follow electronic repair channels on TH-cam and I am staggered by the number of videos on repairing radiograms (as we used to call them in the UK) Check out Mend It Mark and his 1942 Ducati radiogram repair videos.th-cam.com/video/UbNBGVW1n0Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ers-Pe3TaaiR_CeW
I’ve never seen the interest in original pressings. I’m happy with recently reissued records because to me it’s about the music. The high prices that are being paid for these pressings are not about music but investing and collecting. If people want to pay lots of money for original pressings that is their decision.
Great Video and insight on the auction. BTW two questions: 1# Did I miss your Humming Guru follow up? #2 Like you I am a Turrentine fan, I feel like the 3 Sounds and Turrentine "The Blue Hour" should be reissued including the complete sessions. The MM of just the album cuts goes for $400.00. I think this The Blue Hour needs some attention . The CD version with the complete sessions Master Takes is 79.20 minutes of pure fricking bliss. It needs to be on vinyl.. Thanks
No, it is not. Read Fred‘s quote. The NY 23 series was a very rare period for blue note. The NY 23 series ended with blue train. That makes this pressing an earlier, pressing then following W. 43rd St., pressings. End of story. Fred has more W. 33rd St. blue trains without the NY 23 on them. They do not carry the cachet or value of this pressing. Fred has an access to over 7000 blue notes. Friend and collector Larry Cohn. Fred has been doing them since the mid 1980s. End of story.
Hearing you speak about the qualities of those 50's Blue Note covers, it makes really clear that current record company management at Blue Note, even Don Was, don't appreciate their own history and culture when they choose the route of low quality throw away sleeves on the Classic series, what a wasted opportunity. Half the time they don't even make it home without a seam split. Who will be coveting those in 70 years?
Don decided to go for high-end audiophile quality sound available to the masses, over the collectability and packaging quality. He once stated he tried to keep 80-anny series under $25 (I blame 75 series which were dirt cheap) so it would remain within reach of every ordinary Joe Blogg. He could only do that and remain profitable as a business if he cut corner(s) on something - he decided to do so on the packaging. Classics, 80es and 75s were (and Classics still are) all pressed at Optimal in Germany, a company infamous and criticized for mediocre vinyl jackets and mushy lifeless re-prints of the covers of remasters from the past. I have the same worries and thoughts as you on the state of these paper-thin, basic quality covers and their durability in the years to come. While most of us protect our record sleeves from wear and tear well, we cannot do much to stop color fading and graphics degrading, which on the BN Classics is something bound to happen...when not sure but it will.
Like you said some buyers might be speculating or are financial whales who have 20 jazz LPs and ask a true fsn "what's the coolest?" and buy accordingly.Think 20 years ago Stradivarius instruments were going for 20 million and then not played but displayed or loaned to a player the owner thinks worthy
Woke that’s remarkable that a record sold for that price. Listen jazz is not a fad, it has continued and evolved since its inception. Truly an original American art form. For those of us who possess some of these titles, it is a blessing. I was not born in the 50’s, but I have some Blue Note records thanks to my dad. Play them and enjoy the music just as my father did when I was a kid. Hell they have given me fond memories some 60 years later and still fill my ears with some blissful music.
It only shows how 'disconnected from reality' the recent craze for OG Jazz titles have become. The Jazz vinyl resurgence is certainly on the up and at that Boom end of the cycle, but the little old Bust gremlin is peeking from the corner waiting for its time to strike like a viper. The fact remains, most of us Jazz enthusiasts fall under two major demographic groups - the Boomers and the Gen X - boomers are slowly leaving the land of the living, with some of my Gen-X friends and acquaintances starting to follow them to the Valhalla too - so the herd is thinning. While the members of other demographics also listen to Jazz, their numbers are miniscule in comparison. This craze will only remain alive and kicking as long as there are enough of followers, collectors and enthusiasts around to prop it up and ride it. Something tells me in about 15-20 years we might start to see a beginning of a very different 'picture'.
My exact thoughts too...that's why I'm very careful what I buy and how much I pay these days for my jazz vinyl. Besides, some of the re-issues sound even better than the originals, for me the parole is - patience is a virtue. :-)
What we are seeing after the high collectibility of blue Notes are the records becoming valued as art investments because as I stated they are masterpieces of early 50s and mid 60s music production and presses. Nothing else like that exist. Other jazz records from the same era not blue notes. That’s why they are so collectible. Everything else you say is pure supposition, and not based on current fact. The fact is these prices continue to rise, and it’s no longer about the average collector, these are about people collecting art for investment sake. Just as the cachet for a Renoir or a Matisse, or a van Gogh does not decline, blue note original pressings will only go up in value.
The art-market being a total minefield it is hardly surprising that old LPs are collectable at what seems to us poor mopes as expensive prices. To those with 'the money' the prices are chump-change and you are almost guaranteed an original for the reasons Ken talked about. As with the art-market somebody out there will be trying to fake them when the prices are high enough. How successful the fakers will be is a another matter. Fred's expertise might become even more valuable. You will know it is really crazy when the first high security facility specifically engineered for storing LPs opens in Monaco. Perhaps we are already there?
People are going to say “this person has more money than sense”. The reality is probably they just have more money than you. Paying an unimaginably high price also doesn’t mean it’s an investment. Guarantee that if I had the money, I’d have a ridiculous hi fi system and buy every LP I wanted.
Hopefully the siren wasn’t the ambulance picking up the guy that just spent 12k for the record ;) Seriously though, wow, pretty cool. Can imagine your slack jaw Ken when that happened lol. But, as you stated, it is Blue Note and the premium collector will pay to have that history in perfect condition. And if course the sound and artistry of the cover. Amazing. Im sure the buyer will thoroughly enjoy the lp. Records are getting up there in price. But in any genre I would think the primo prices must depend upon the desirability of the title, the condition and if it is the first press original. As time goes by, less and less of these titles in truly NM condition are going to disappear or be locked away in uber collections. I am ok with second or third best 😁 Thanks for sharing, wacky and wild stuff as Johnny use to say!
We shouldn’t see this as a normal record sale. At that price, obviously it’s not because it will sound better than any other pressing. I doubt the buyer will ever play it. As a collectible object, the sky is the limit like any other.
I think Lee Morgan is the star of “blue train”. I personally think this was a blip. Remember that Sonny Clark “leapin and lopin” that sold for $7000 years ago? Everyone got in a tizzy but sure enough a few years later NM copies of that album were selling for $1000 or so.
You may be right. Not every blue note sells for crazy money, but there are a select few, including those by jutta hipp, Coltrane, and Lee Morgan. But these things are always influx.
I do spend money on recordings, too often much more than I should. All chasing my tale to acquire the ultimate recording, that I will get maximum joy listening to. That being said, I do consider these things far too ephemeral to spend this kind of money on. I also do not like the idea of never being able to play it. The reality is, the second you do, there goes a significant amount of your $12.6k investment. More than likely, you can find another record for a lot less that is equally pleasurable to play and own. Buying things simply to roll over in order to make a profit? Rings hollow to me, what an excellent way to take the fun out of the hobby. I suspect this is all about having a rare item at best, or in the negative reselling it for a profit.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Operative word Investment. Which in most cases has a target goal of a monetary return. Look at a sealed Rock release from Mo-Fi
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Respectfully disagree. The operative word here is "investment". The most common usage of the noun being... an asset or item acquired with the goal of generating income or appreciation. Appreciation refers to an increase in the value of an asset over time. When an individual purchases a good as an investment, the intent is not to consume the good but rather to use it in the future to create wealth. For it to be used as analogous to the joy of just having is an inaccurate connotation. I collect, so I get it, but there comes a point where I ask myself what is the purpose of a recording supposed to be? I try to remind myself that the true joys in this life do not come from simply owning things. In regard to Audio, for me it is always about listening to the music first and foremost. That is where the pleasure of owning a good pressing comes from, not that I own a rare $300.00 NM- OOP release of a Beatles LP. So, I am skeptical. I have seen way too many record hustlers; buying, waiting a bit, then selling an at one time a $60.00 Mo-Fi or Audio Fidelity releases for $395.00 and up. So, I'm not convinced that there is a pure non-monetary motivation behind this purchase. As stated, I honestly do not think a record this expensive will spend any time on a turntable.
I believe that Alfred and Francis were firmly convinced from the start that what they were doing deserved superior level packaging to ensure persistence over time, starting with the quality of the product. When you hold an original blue note record in your hands you can't help but be enraptured, captured, bewitched. You immediately feel projected into the past that you think you can touch and you inevitably feel like you have to preserve it, protect it. Faced with a perfectly preserved "object", I find the sense of possession "at all costs" justified precisely because history suddenly doesn't seem "so distant" to us. Great Ken, you always know how to hit the point of view!
One thing that is unfortunate to me is when Fred says in the item description, “The playing surface is in new condition, with a beautiful luster; perhaps played once.” It’s clear that although the record is NM it has been played more times than just once. That description likely contributes to the stratospheric value if people are expecting a record that has truly been played just once.
This language is not uncommon in his auctions. The records are never returned. Fred is not deceitful in his descriptions. In fact, almost every Record at the jazz record center is an excellent playing condition. Whether it’s going up for an auction or not. Unlike most of the stores in New York City, who sell used records, Fred are all in excellent condition. If you don’t believe me, come in and check it out. But you are no one else can be smirched the manfor his honesty. He’s been conducting auction since the mid 1980s. This is why he has held in such high regard for one simple fact, he’s honest.
Yeah @@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 I am familiar that that sentence I quoted or a variation thereof is found in every item description Fred lists. That right there shows it couldn't be true. There is no way every record he auctions has been played only once. The only way it could be true is if they are Fred's personal records and he can verify that. But if they are coming from other collectors, then the perhaps only played once description is a bit misleading. I have ordered from Fred and found the description of NM to be completely true but the record I ordered was played more than once too. And I would never say Fred is dishonest, from what you've said he seems like an incredible person. It's more wishful thinking though. Of course it would be nice if Fred's records were only actually played once and the records are NM but they have obviously been played a few times, just like all records owned by jazz appreciating collectors are unless they are sealed.
It’s not wishful thinking. Fred buys giant collections. People can afford to collect these kind of records over the years often do not play them. I find nothing misleading in any of his auctions. And if anyone thought the way you did, he would have returns. But he has none
Ken, you speak in such absolute terms it’s ridiculous. Clearly there are spindle marks on side 1. Anyone can see them zoomed in on the photos. Thibs comments are fully justified yet you discredit him.
If they bought the 47 W 63rd NY 23 label pressing then they have a 1st, if they didnt and just bought 47 W 63rd they are idiots who don't know what they are buying
Fred has been collecting and selling OG Blue Notes since the mid 1980s. He is the widely acknowledged global expert on Blue Note first pressings. His book, "Blue Note Records A Guide For Identifying Original Pressings," confirms his research and expertise, as do his globally recognized auctions, also in operation since the mid 80s, pre Internet. Fred has the records, integrity, sales figures, satisfied customers, and history to back it up.
The following quote refers to Blue Note catalog numbers, which is standard collectors' parlance, not album titles.
"The New York 23 label had a very short shelf life, appearing on 1544-1559, 1561-1563, 1565, and 1576. It appears on either Side 1 or Side 2 of 1575 and 1577, but never been seen on both sides. Inasmuch as 1577 is clearly the demarcation point for the NY 23 label, it very rarely shows up. The fact that it is a rarity on a Coltrane LP only makes it all the more desirable. No one knows how many of these were pressed." Fred Cohen
I have shopped at the jazz record center on several occasions. I found Fred to be a wonderful person who took the time to explain things and answer questions . I view these types of sales as a work of art that the buyer will preserve and perhaps share with others . Best to Fred and thanks for his contributions
These old pressings are visual and aural art of the highest order. Thanks for sharing, Ken!
Ken Thank you for sharing this. I totally agree. I once obtained some 1st pressing like Kenny Burrell BLP 1523 Lee Morgan The Cooker. Those originals have different aura, sort of sacred just holding them. Blue Note back in those days especially in the 50's are not just music to play, it is the art.
Perfect description.
A few years ago, you've talked about the original Jimmy Smith LPs on Blue Note. You've said these LPs didn't have the attention of collectors. They were easily available and at an affordable price. I've bought most of those original LPs on Ebay and Discogs. The average price for those LPs with covers in great condition was about $50.00 to $60.00. I'm so happy I've followed your advice back then. Thank you Ken ! - from an happy collector !
My $12,600.02: 1. I agree, the physical properties of originals are primarily what make them special. They are truly unique and a testament to the quality control of the era they are from. 2. These prices do not surprise me, and in fact, I'm surprised that these rare original Blue Notes don't go for closer $50k yet. I think they will some day not too far in the future. There are a lot of people in the world for whom $12,000 is a drop in the bucket and they are getting more and more interested in vintage jazz records. Me? I gave up on these original pressings years ago. They're like stars in a universe that is expanding at an accelerating rate: out of reach and moving away faster and faster. I've made my peace with it and I'm happy enjoying the music in other formats. :)
I agree there is something magical and awe inspiring about handling a gorgeous near mint jazz record from the 50s. I can’t imagine being in the presence of something like a Blue Train original, but thankfully I’ve experienced that feeling from having some under-appreciated and more affordable Blue Note, Prestige, Verve, and Urania records.
As far as shrink wrapping for LP jackets - I have read that before that became standard packaging from record manufacturers, the loose-fitting sealed poly bags on LPs were put on by record shops, especially some in NYC. So, those records were shipped with no outer protective wrap in the boxes.
Great tip!
Coltrane said himself Blue Train was his personal favourite.
i had a mint original Blue Note Hank Mobley 1550 at one time which was beautiful!😮
Love your videos , I’m from a small Canadian province , but when I got to New York for a few days ,I had to go to jazz record center , so when I listen to you ,as well as your knowledge, and opinions, but I’m also taken back to New York , anyway ,you have a special channel , your the real deal . Thanks
Thank you. I try.
Which small province ?
@@NEEDLEGROOVEVINYL Prince Edward island
@@johndoyle7644 definitely need to visit one day. Sadly never been east of Quebec where I live.
@@NEEDLEGROOVEVINYL spent a few nights in old Quebec years ago lovely spot
Great video, Ken. I completely agree with you about the whole topic of LP collecting. Like you said, if someone has the cash, more power to them. Also, I was so pleased to hear about the Jazz Record Center, and Fred Cohen; I used to shop there occasionally during the late 80’s and through the 90’s, when I was still living in NYC. It is an amazing place to buy Jazz records. My last time there was in 2011 on a short visit to NY, and I bought some great Jazz DVDs and a small Gene Krupa poster, to bring back to Texas. I’m now retired and living in Mexico…..
Great!
great documentation, Ken.
If someone can afford $135 million for a collectable car (1955 Mercedes 300SLR Ulenhaut), what's $12.5K for a record?
How cool is that! The beauty of this sale is it went from people who love and appreciate the artifact to someone else who also loves and appreciates the artifact. No obsession with how much profit was made, simply being part of the chain. Having held the thing is the kick.
Eloquent as ever Ken. Fascinating video. I’m in NZ and have never seen an original Blue Note, maybe one day I’ll come to NY and visit the Jazz Record Center.
Of course not..
But if as a company and yes. Pay it as an investment in this high inflation!
Wow!
I visited the Jazz Record Centre when I was in New York a few years ago and bought some amazing stuff. I love the shop, you have to know it is there or you would walk right by
The only original Blue Note I have is Lou Donaldson's "Gravy Train" which to my knowledge has never been reissued on LP, unsure of reason.
I have many AP, MM & Tone Poet reissues.
Hi Ken, you raised some good thoughts in this video. I agree with most of what you said. It is worth considering what the collector does with the work of art they have purchased. It is fantastic if the record enters the collection of a music lover. That means it will be well looked after and form part of a valuable record collection. But if the record is purchased as a financial opportunity that may bring a higher dollar return down the track, it is no longer a beautiful work of art but simply a commercial object to be traded in the market! Your videos are first rate and always good viewing!
Thank you
It was amazing to see this happening when everyone thought vinyl was death. I'll be in NY this weekend. I hope to see you at the Jazz record centre. Great video thanks for sharing Fred's story 👍🏻
Pretty impressive Ken. Thank you for posting. Think there are 2 things driving the prices on collectable vinyl. 1. as you noted the rise in pure interest in collecting vinyl records globally vs buying downloads. 2. Rapid rise in inflation over the last few years. The second also applies to high end audio. Amps that were 20k 5-10 years ago are now 40K. High end speakers have greatly outstripped the inflation rate. 10-12 years ago spending more than 50K on a pair of speakers was not too common unless a person was buying a large pair of Wilsons. Today 50K is a common mid-level price point that is still a long ways from the top end models. On the original Blue Notes most of those pressing runs were pretty small. The original market for these titles was specialize and small, and these were pressed back in an era where many folks were still used to playing 78s, where once they were played 40 times or so they were worn out. JMO, but I think a lot of that same perspective (play a record until it wears out) carried into the early days of the Vinyl LP. If a person compares the US Blue Note Pressing quantities to the Japan Blue Note pressing volumes or the new Tone Poets, these later pressing runs are much, much larger. Was not uncommon for Toshiba or King in Japan to do 10k pressing runs. Would guess the same is true with the new Tone Poets and Classic series.
Well said
Some collectors/dealers will also point out that there are other genres in which the originals get much, much rarer than Blue Notes
@@dgmono Thanks for the info.
Suggestion: A record - an LP, a 7" - is to music what a photo is to a painted masterpiece. In that construct, this Coltrane LP is, in a way, a first generation picture of the master. What is it worth? Whatever someone is willing to pay!
I'm totally agree about what you said. I just took this one in my hands again after watching your video and this is really magical ! You can't really explain this if you didn't touch those Blue Note original albums .... I really LOVE their 10 inches .... maybe more magical than the LP's, to me.
Interesting take on the RSD pressings!
I’m thrilled for Fred and the JRC.
Unlike the prices commanded on the eBay auctions, the in store prices at JRC are very reasonable!
Stock is pretty threadbare at the moment. Waiting for Fred to put out a collection.
Wow. A lot of useful information here...
Good stuff Ken! I always enjoy watching your videos. One of my favorites is STEREOPHILE'S MICHAEL FREMER TALKS DUKE, LLOYD, CTI AND "GETTING THERE".
If you’ve got that kind of money to purchase an original blue note, then you must have an amazing revealing system to enjoy it on so I’m OK with that. I’m more upset by the absurd LP prices over the last few years. I’m happy enough with my 1985 blue train CD in AAD. Would rather spend my time listening to my entire collection.
Even if tone poets will be in print for a while, this speaks to the value of the actual sound they produce in your home.
I wish I had the ears to appreciate differences in pressings.
On the other hand, I can enjoy a fine performance, and not having to pay astronomical prices is somewhat of a blessing.
Can you imagine having the money and feeling like you have to get one of these? It would never stop.
Love a good OG Blue Note Mono Pressing. Glad I bought all of mine years ago before things got way out of hand. My idea of rare though these days is in 78s. Those guys are digging for gold and everyone else is looking for rust off of a Pinto IMO.
Ken, Liberty pressings of key Blue Notes hover between $125 - $250 now-a-days. Also, I suspect the premiums being paid for these records has more to due with the JRC's reputation, and command 2x - 6x the fair market value. I think these records have never been played before. I was the one who (over)paid for that Miles Davis 'Steamin'....partially because I was sick and tired of getting outbid by a vinyl knit at the last minute. I will keep bidding on JRC auctions...with the notion that JRC records have an immaculate provenance.
No kidding? Thanks for buying Fred’s records and keeping me employed! I’m trying to get him to use my ultrasonic cleaner, but he just gives me a look.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455I just bought my first Degritter Mark II (anxious for its arrival as there is a severe backlog). I suspect Fred's apprehension of using tech is not limited to ultrasonic cleaners...and for good reason. Fred's a cultural treason. I will be flying to NYC in May to meet you two on a Saturday. Be sure to tell him hello for me.
These records are now becoming pieces of art. If that’s the case who knows where prices can go for mint originals.. investors may not even play them
I'm in the lo-fidelity 2nd-class traveling set, & I still haven't got a loan yet.
Amazing 👍🏻
Ken in terms of sound... I have always assumed that the quality is the same for all early pressings with RVG stamp and Plastelite ear. Then with a slight drop off on other early pressings with RVG and no plastelight ear including liberty pressings. Do you concur? BTW Kenny Durham and the Jazz Prophets on ABC Paramount?
I would concur with that. But not everyone agrees with us.
The collectors are doctors and lawyers. The same kind of collectors that drive the price of some acoustic guitars over $100,000. Never play them...just collect them as investments.
very interesting, thanks you for sharing.
If Ken is footing that $12,600 bill, then yes. I would.
everyone has a hobby and possibly disposable cash. To each their own
Nice job, Ken. Like you said, power to the buyer. As far as an investment, though, I wonder, what will be worth more in 30 years: this record or $12.6k invested in and S&P fund? My money would be on the S&P but this cat can surely do both. Nice to hear Fred thinks the RSD Bill Evans releases will do well--I have spent way too much on way too many of those... maybe my ship will come in.
Great segment. I'm thinking The Trane didn't make anything close to 12k when he recorded the session. Thanks for posting.
I wouldn’t, because I buy records to listen to them on an old HMV console, not as a collector or audiophile. But, I get that others have different priorities and interests and I’m glad somebody is appreciating and preserving these.
Bet that sounds great
I follow electronic repair channels on TH-cam and I am staggered by the number of videos on repairing radiograms (as we used to call them in the UK) Check out Mend It Mark and his 1942 Ducati radiogram repair videos.th-cam.com/video/UbNBGVW1n0Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ers-Pe3TaaiR_CeW
I like it. It’s also a nice piece of mid-century modern furniture and seems temperamentally suited to 60s jazz.
I’ve never seen the interest in original pressings. I’m happy with recently reissued records because to me it’s about the music. The high prices that are being paid for these pressings are not about music but investing and collecting. If people want to pay lots of money for original pressings that is their decision.
Nooooo neverrrrrr, for any record
Some people have more money than sense
There goes my place in the Bahamas
I personally would not drop 12k for a single record. I did plunk down $150 for a Music Matters Jazz issue of Blue Train though. Great video Ken.
Astonishing 👌🏻👌🏻
I can't even properly allign my stylus
Great Video and insight on the auction. BTW two questions: 1# Did I miss your Humming Guru follow up? #2 Like you I am a Turrentine fan, I feel like the 3 Sounds and Turrentine "The Blue Hour" should be reissued including the complete sessions. The MM of just the album cuts goes for $400.00. I think this The Blue Hour needs some attention . The CD version with the complete sessions Master Takes is 79.20 minutes of pure fricking bliss. It needs to be on vinyl.. Thanks
400!
Thanks for reminding me, I need to do the follow up
Incredible
So in summary, what constitutes this first pressing is disputed...
No, it is not. Read Fred‘s quote. The NY 23 series was a very rare period for blue note. The NY 23 series ended with blue train. That makes this pressing an earlier, pressing then following W. 43rd St., pressings. End of story. Fred has more W. 33rd St. blue trains without the NY 23 on them. They do not carry the cachet or value of this pressing. Fred has an access to over 7000 blue notes. Friend and collector Larry Cohn. Fred has been doing them since the mid 1980s. End of story.
Such an absolute answer Ken. How can you be so sure? The truth is both labels were probably contemporaneous.
Hearing you speak about the qualities of those 50's Blue Note covers, it makes really clear that current record company management at Blue Note, even Don Was, don't appreciate their own history and culture when they choose the route of low quality throw away sleeves on the Classic series, what a wasted opportunity. Half the time they don't even make it home without a seam split. Who will be coveting those in 70 years?
Don decided to go for high-end audiophile quality sound available to the masses, over the collectability and packaging quality. He once stated he tried to keep 80-anny series under $25 (I blame 75 series which were dirt cheap) so it would remain within reach of every ordinary Joe Blogg. He could only do that and remain profitable as a business if he cut corner(s) on something - he decided to do so on the packaging. Classics, 80es and 75s were (and Classics still are) all pressed at Optimal in Germany, a company infamous and criticized for mediocre vinyl jackets and mushy lifeless re-prints of the covers of remasters from the past.
I have the same worries and thoughts as you on the state of these paper-thin, basic quality covers and their durability in the years to come. While most of us protect our record sleeves from wear and tear well, we cannot do much to stop color fading and graphics degrading, which on the BN Classics is something bound to happen...when not sure but it will.
Like you said some buyers might be speculating or are financial whales who have 20 jazz LPs and ask a true fsn "what's the coolest?" and buy accordingly.Think 20 years ago Stradivarius instruments were going for 20 million and then not played but displayed or loaned to a player the owner thinks worthy
Cool to see maybe but fortunately I'm not that kind of collector
No, but I would download it from Spotify.
If i had the coin......yep!
Woke that’s remarkable that a record sold for that price. Listen jazz is not a fad, it has continued and evolved since its inception. Truly an original American art form. For those of us who possess some of these titles, it is a blessing. I was not born in the 50’s, but I have some Blue Note records thanks to my dad. Play them and enjoy the music just as my father did when I was a kid. Hell they have given me fond memories some 60 years later and still fill my ears with some blissful music.
It only shows how 'disconnected from reality' the recent craze for OG Jazz titles have become. The Jazz vinyl resurgence is certainly on the up and at that Boom end of the cycle, but the little old Bust gremlin is peeking from the corner waiting for its time to strike like a viper.
The fact remains, most of us Jazz enthusiasts fall under two major demographic groups - the Boomers and the Gen X - boomers are slowly leaving the land of the living, with some of my Gen-X friends and acquaintances starting to follow them to the Valhalla too - so the herd is thinning. While the members of other demographics also listen to Jazz, their numbers are miniscule in comparison.
This craze will only remain alive and kicking as long as there are enough of followers, collectors and enthusiasts around to prop it up and ride it. Something tells me in about 15-20 years we might start to see a beginning of a very different 'picture'.
My exact thoughts too...that's why I'm very careful what I buy and how much I pay these days for my jazz vinyl. Besides, some of the re-issues sound even better than the originals, for me the parole is - patience is a virtue. :-)
What we are seeing after the high collectibility of blue Notes are the records becoming valued as art investments because as I stated they are masterpieces of early 50s and mid 60s music production and presses. Nothing else like that exist. Other jazz records from the same era not blue notes. That’s why they are so collectible. Everything else you say is pure supposition, and not based on current fact. The fact is these prices continue to rise, and it’s no longer about the average collector, these are about people collecting art for investment sake. Just as the cachet for a Renoir or a Matisse, or a van Gogh does not decline, blue note original pressings will only go up in value.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 I have to say I agree to disagree. Time will tell, though. Cheers.
It’s a work of art just like a painting so if you have the money for it that’s fine.
The art-market being a total minefield it is hardly surprising that old LPs are collectable at what seems to us poor mopes as expensive prices. To those with 'the money' the prices are chump-change and you are almost guaranteed an original for the reasons Ken talked about. As with the art-market somebody out there will be trying to fake them when the prices are high enough. How successful the fakers will be is a another matter. Fred's expertise might become even more valuable. You will know it is really crazy when the first high security facility specifically engineered for storing LPs opens in Monaco. Perhaps we are already there?
Regarding Monaco that has happened?
I wish…need to fix my transmission.
Mine needs a paint job
Are these Vinyl auctions on TH-cam?
No, ebay
People are going to say “this person has more money than sense”. The reality is probably they just have more money than you.
Paying an unimaginably high price also doesn’t mean it’s an investment.
Guarantee that if I had the money, I’d have a ridiculous hi fi system and buy every LP I wanted.
😂
Hopefully the siren wasn’t the ambulance picking up the guy that just spent 12k for the record ;)
Seriously though, wow, pretty cool. Can imagine your slack jaw Ken when that happened lol.
But, as you stated, it is Blue Note and the premium collector will pay to have that history in perfect condition. And if course the sound and artistry of the cover. Amazing. Im sure the buyer will thoroughly enjoy the lp.
Records are getting up there in price. But in any genre I would think the primo prices must depend upon the desirability of the title, the condition and if it is the first press original. As time goes by, less and less of these titles in truly NM condition are going to disappear or be locked away in uber collections.
I am ok with second or third best 😁
Thanks for sharing, wacky and wild stuff as Johnny use to say!
We shouldn’t see this as a normal record sale. At that price, obviously it’s not because it will sound better than any other pressing. I doubt the buyer will ever play it. As a collectible object, the sky is the limit like any other.
Imagine Lorraine Gordon's collection, I would think now in the possession of her daughter!.
How much did fred pay for that lp
Fred has thousands of early pressings. I doubt even he remembers.
I think Lee Morgan is the star of “blue train”. I personally think this was a blip. Remember that Sonny Clark “leapin and lopin” that sold for $7000 years ago? Everyone got in a tizzy but sure enough a few years later NM copies of that album were selling for $1000 or so.
You may be right. Not every blue note sells for crazy money, but there are a select few, including those by jutta hipp, Coltrane, and Lee Morgan. But these things are always influx.
I do spend money on recordings, too often much more than I should. All chasing my tale to acquire the ultimate recording, that I will get maximum joy listening to. That being said, I do consider these things far too ephemeral to spend this kind of money on. I also do not like the idea of never being able to play it. The reality is, the second you do, there goes a significant amount of your $12.6k investment. More than likely, you can find another record for a lot less that is equally pleasurable to play and own. Buying things simply to roll over in order to make a profit? Rings hollow to me, what an excellent way to take the fun out of the hobby. I suspect this is all about having a rare item at best, or in the negative reselling it for a profit.
I don’t think people paying this kind of money are flipping them. It’s purely an investment.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Operative word Investment. Which in most cases has a target goal of a monetary return. Look at a sealed Rock release from Mo-Fi
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 Respectfully disagree. The operative word here is "investment". The most common usage of the noun being... an asset or item acquired with the goal of generating income or appreciation. Appreciation refers to an increase in the value of an asset over time. When an individual purchases a good as an investment, the intent is not to consume the good but rather to use it in the future to create wealth. For it to be used as analogous to the joy of just having is an inaccurate connotation. I collect, so I get it, but there comes a point where I ask myself what is the purpose of a recording supposed to be? I try to remind myself that the true joys in this life do not come from simply owning things.
In regard to Audio, for me it is always about listening to the music first and foremost. That is where the pleasure of owning a good pressing comes from, not that I own a rare $300.00 NM- OOP release of a Beatles LP. So, I am skeptical. I have seen way too many record hustlers; buying, waiting a bit, then selling an at one time a $60.00 Mo-Fi or Audio Fidelity releases for $395.00 and up. So, I'm not convinced that there is a pure non-monetary motivation behind this purchase. As stated, I honestly do not think a record this expensive will spend any time on a turntable.
I believe that Alfred and Francis were firmly convinced from the start that what they were doing deserved superior level packaging to ensure persistence over time, starting with the quality of the product. When you hold an original blue note record in your hands you can't help but be enraptured, captured, bewitched. You immediately feel projected into the past that you think you can touch and you inevitably feel like you have to preserve it, protect it. Faced with a perfectly preserved "object", I find the sense of possession "at all costs" justified precisely because history suddenly doesn't seem "so distant" to us. Great Ken, you always know how to hit the point of view!
Perfect
Its a 2nd pressing that someone has paid $12600 for, welcolme to the World of idiots
Yes. The sound quality probably is so far ahead of whats available today. We are in the dark ages of sound quality today
One thing that is unfortunate to me is when Fred says in the item description, “The playing surface is in new condition, with a beautiful luster; perhaps played once.” It’s clear that although the record is NM it has been played more times than just once. That description likely contributes to the stratospheric value if people are expecting a record that has truly been played just once.
This language is not uncommon in his auctions. The records are never returned. Fred is not deceitful in his descriptions. In fact, almost every Record at the jazz record center is an excellent playing condition. Whether it’s going up for an auction or not. Unlike most of the stores in New York City, who sell used records, Fred are all in excellent condition. If you don’t believe me, come in and check it out. But you are no one else can be smirched the manfor his honesty. He’s been conducting auction since the mid 1980s. This is why he has held in such high regard for one simple fact, he’s honest.
Look at the spindle hole. That is proof this record has been unplayed. It is clean and clear and not a Mark on it.
Yeah @@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455 I am familiar that that sentence I quoted or a variation thereof is found in every item description Fred lists. That right there shows it couldn't be true. There is no way every record he auctions has been played only once. The only way it could be true is if they are Fred's personal records and he can verify that. But if they are coming from other collectors, then the perhaps only played once description is a bit misleading. I have ordered from Fred and found the description of NM to be completely true but the record I ordered was played more than once too. And I would never say Fred is dishonest, from what you've said he seems like an incredible person. It's more wishful thinking though. Of course it would be nice if Fred's records were only actually played once and the records are NM but they have obviously been played a few times, just like all records owned by jazz appreciating collectors are unless they are sealed.
It’s not wishful thinking. Fred buys giant collections. People can afford to collect these kind of records over the years often do not play them. I find nothing misleading in any of his auctions. And if anyone thought the way you did, he would have returns. But he has none
Ken, you speak in such absolute terms it’s ridiculous. Clearly there are spindle marks on side 1. Anyone can see them zoomed in on the photos. Thibs comments are fully justified yet you discredit him.
I can understand why someone would want a Sun Ra hand painted cover. I don't get this at all.
If they bought the 47 W 63rd NY 23 label pressing then they have a 1st, if they didnt and just bought 47 W 63rd they are idiots who don't know what they are buying
I didn’t call them idiots. And you should not either.