The only game I've seen do a healer role in both a balanced and fun way is Medic in TF2. By far the worst in combat to the point where you're throwing if you're not healing outside of self defense, but just having one medic gives you a massive advantage because he's the ONLY healer. The issue is Rivals designed healers to be way to independent, and basically be psuedo DPS
TF2 is the only game that makes healing in of itself fun. Every other Class/Hero Shooter I've played makes every Healer a Pseudo DPS. For a class who's rather simple on the surface, there's a lot of depth to Medic's gameplay: buffing teammates, managing crit heals, effectively building uber, knowing how to use uber, crossbowing teammates, knowing when to go for ubersaws.
On that we can agree, but allow me to offer some perspective: What would you say the difference between TF2 and Other hero shooters are on a fundamental gameplay level? There are several correct answers, but the one I’m looking for specifically is “a more varied cast.” At the end of the day, TF2 only has one healer, technically two more if you want to count Engineer’s dispenser and Heavy’s sandwich but most would agree on those being secondary features. Meanwhile Rivals, Overwatch and whatever other shooter you have in your mind has multiple. This naturally creates a unique challenge when your game has more than one dedicated healer. If they all play like medic, then why bother developing more in the first place? I believe Mantis is mostly fine in her current state. Generally less reliable heals on a stronger character. We can Leave her as the independent healer and all, but the rest will need some form of tweaking.
Medic? You mean the class that has a one player limit in competitive formats? And this isn't some Valve rules, the community decided that more than one healer is too much. If Marvel Rivals adopts this healer I wouldn't mind.
Adam Warlock is different cause I think he’s truly meant to be a hybrid strategist/duelist, he has limited but powerful heals and a truly unique ability with soul-bond, making him and his squishy allies effectively tanks for 6 seconds, but that’s basically it. His ult despite being a rez is honestly the weakest/nichest strategist ult compared to the rest, Luna Mantis and then Loki basically having invulnerability for 8-12 seconds each is way more useful than losing the teamfight just to get destroyed again, and since Rocket and Jeff have ults that aren’t all that defensive anyways they don’t count (but are technically more threatening than Adam’s ult).
From what I've encountered, supports and strategists are some of the most toxic players completely unable to self reflect on any mistakes they themselves make. They're also the first ones to type GG ez iny experience. 2/10 support mains are at their actual skill level, the rest are boosted egomaniacs.
and it's usually the cloak and dagger players who are the first to complain about their team (while they play an auto aim character that can go invis and run, escaping death for free)
@@ZenkoDuosadly thats what "ranked" is for. A number that has no bearing on your life whatsoever that no one in your real life will ever care about but some chase like its the holy grail. Its just beyond sad really. It's the same thing i wonder with YT. Whatever happened to just doing things for fun because you felt like it. Why does everything need a carrot on the stick now.
as an FF14 player, overwatch, and a rival player just wanna comment on the early part of the video and the common misconception about tanks in hero shooters compared to MMOs like FF14 and kinda explain why supports are built like this. In ff14 a tank job is to take aggro. Literally stop the enemies from getting to the dps and healers with their stance; in hero shooters the tank job is to take space and apply pressure, not take aggro. The tank is supposed to sit up front and dump resources into the front line of the enemy team so the enemy has to counter this by dumping their resources into stopping this or else they'll get run over. Dive heroes interject themselves into this back and forth by forcing resources away from the frontline and into the back. This is where the tank wants to use their defensive cooldowns on themselves to stay alive and NOT turn around to help the supports 90% of the time. (it's case by case) If the tank turns around to help they're giving up space and pressure that the enemy can take advantage of or even kill the tank. There needs to be a fine line in hero shooters where the supports can deal with dive but also not completely invalidate dive which I think most of the support base kits do pretty well. While mantis can 3 tap you her actual healing power is pretty low compared to the other supports, Luna has pretty good healing but if you focus fire targets with your team with communication you can force her to use her ability, one of her major defensive cooldowns before you even dive her where all you need to worry is the freeze... and etc. The issue really just comes from the ults that are all basically just playing white mage spamming Medica II. And even then I'd argue that their healing power isn't even a huge issue, just more so how long they last. They're just long enough where the supports and tanks can get their defensive cooldowns again right after and you're back in the tug of war like the last 30 seconds didn't matter at all. The only support ult I think where the healing is actually a problem is Invisible women where her ult really does not need that much healing on it... like a passive 60hp/s would be good not 165hp/s. TLDR; Supports should have some independence, tanks shouldn't be peeling for their supports all of the time, and they should cut the length of all of the support ults in half or even more
Jesus Christ I didn't realize the invisible woman ult healed that much per second. The quickfix in TF2 only healed 100 with it's ubercharge and only applied to one person at a time, and it was banned in comp because it made that character essentially unkillable and brought the team back up to full health instantly since you could manually swap targets at the cost of losing time on the uber. These ults just do the same shit for the entire team with no downsides lmao. Absolutely braindead design on netease's part.
Support ults are ruining this game honestly, 0 counterplay, 0 antiheal, just wait but if they have luna snow loki and cloak and dagger they are immortal for like 35 seconds. Then they will have everything back up for next fight because they get ulr in 60 seconds.
There’s a good reason we don’t have anti heal. It’ll make melee heroes useless. Maybe Panther but SpiderMan, Wolverine, Hulk, Captain America and close rangers will be useless.
Earlier I tried playing each of the supports in QP to test out their kits. Rocket Racoon seems like the most balanced out of the supports, which also makes them the most disliked by teammates who'd prefer you go Mantis or Luna. His main fire does a lot of damage but it has a ton of fall off to the point he has the lowest DPS past 20M, so you can only really use him at close range. Cloak and Dagger I feel is truly braindead. I spammed M1 in the general direction of the fight and the auto homing made me do damage or heal constantly and easily out performed all other heroes. Mantis and Luna I think would be fine if their ultimates healing were simply halved. Lunas ultimate damage bonus should also be reduced to 8s to be inline with other support ultimates. I think Jeff's ultimate should have an option for swallowed teammates to exit out at anytime. Ive seen a few silly plays where Jeff spits melee teammates at enemies but also quite a few griefers who just wipe their own team.
deff play more Rocket he has the most movement out of everyone, i held point for a minute straight just jetpacking and walljumping from cart to building back to cart while i just healed myself the whole time, if you spend most of the time on the ground you are playing rocket wrong! And C&D is indeed braindead she did not need a buff and now just like.. nerf every support plz.. except rocket.. they designed him well
I think any change to healing or damage is the wrong way to go. Time/resource. That's the way that it could it could be helped. Lunas is the most problematic, it stops the game in ALL ELOs. No other ult has that effect. Give her a timer or a resource bar for each part of her ult which the player needs to choose which to pop or switch. You still retain the player agency but also its a metric that the opposition can count or note.
As a Flex player, I’ve started to hate how brain-dead easy it is to play pretty much every Strategist character and steamroll to victory, while on the other hand, if I’m choosing to play Vanguard or Duelist in order to learn other characters, I have to hope the matchmaking gods will give me a Strategist player or two who can pull off even a fraction of what they’re supposed to do.
@@HeirOfPontus black panther at a high level is aids and Spider-Man just exists. If black panther wasn’t buggy as fuck I’d give Loki second place. “Oooo but he can turn into other char-“ Don’t care. Y’all always going to be copying Luna anyway.
@@ZenkoDuo yes but I think nerfing support ults would make Loki actually use his ult to copy other ults. However, I think the issue is that everything is too dependent on support ults. I’ve had games where we demolished them on the scoreboard but they just had better support ults and won. I think the healing on the ults and the generation should be tuned down.
Yeah it sucks. Im trying to learn venom and I can't because first my healer has to be good, and secondly the rest of my team has to be threatening enough to get aggro off of me and help during dives.
Agree 100% a tank shouldn’t get to live on literally 1 hp and escape with little skill , dive characters are a lot weaker M’s With is about half of the duelists
As a venom main, it's really annoying when I pull off a genuinely frame-perfect combo on a squishy and they either A: pop their twelve second invincibility ult or B: someone else taps a single button and gives them a single ray of healing, which heals a third of their health instantly, and also alerts the entirety of the enemy team to my dive attempt.
@@Dangerwarp maybe, but we’ll need more than one character than can check the healing meta less they just get banned outright in favor of keeping things how they are.
love how we went from "no one wants to play support" to "why are we getting triple supports" in the span of like-- a week the comp scene of this game is beyond cooked
Ironically enough you still get people who still don't want to play healer, which just leads to you getting murderstomped by the other team that actually acknowledges that triple support is busted.
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing that needs a nerf is the speed of the ult charge for supports. You can literally get c&d ult like every minute if you know what you're doing
There is literally no way you can defend Luna ult lasting twelve seconds. It needs to be toned down to maybe 8 at most so it's more in line with Mantis, but honestly it should probably be even lower since it's a massive AOE. TF2 had ubercharge and that only lasted eight seconds on a single target, and yet the entire meta was based around using ubercharge to make big pushes or preventing them. Meanwhile the Quickfix which was very similar to these ults with it's ubercharge was banned in every single comp because it was too strong and brought games to a total halt when it went off, even though it only gave the healing effect to one target at a time for only eight seconds.
@@RobBlu-d6uyou are comparing something completely unrelated. In TF2 the entire game revolves around ubercharge because those are the ONLY "ultimate" type of skill in the game. There are no DMG ults or Big AoE danger zones, so giving the healer, the class that less people want to play, the strongest skill in the game, was the only way to encourage people to play the dedicated support in a game where 8/9 classes are just DPS in different ways. And again, the Quickfix is not banned for any particular reason besides that it was never meant to be played in a 6v6 community format, as official TF2 is a CASUAL , not competitively balanced, 12v12 chaos fest, scenario in which the Quick fix is comically known as the WEAKEST of all the mediguns.
Once again brother facts are being spat. It's genuinely annoying as Spider-Man main when I try to do anything and the healers ult or really do anything and thus making my threat level nonexistent. Welp time to wait the 8-12 seconds before I can play the game again and at that point it's a 5 vs 6 and my teammates all die
Yeah that's the major obvious thing no one talks about. Cause when one team is Invincible they aren't just standing there, they're eliminating the non Invincible team with no counter.
@@measlesplease1266 Valve knew this years ago and only let the healer give this effect to one target at a time. NetEase somehow thinks letting most healers give a team wide effect for an even longer amount of time than ubercharge made sense lmao
@@RobBlu-d6u i hope it's just so noobs can ease into the game and then they'll change it. If not, I have no faith in their game design and probably will quit.
to be fair, if strategist ults weren’t this strong, DPS ultimates would get team wipes every single use. DPS ults need to be tuned down along with strategist ults.
12 seconds of near invulnerability is absolutely overkill for countering a DPS ult. Nothing changes if you just make the DPS ults weaker at the same time. Many ult needs a combo with Rocket or Groot/Strange just to counter one healer ult. That's not balanced at all, especially when Punisher can still just get headshot and die during his ult, or Bucky can get cc'd during his and explode. DPS ults can be counters without ults. Healer ults require obscene setup and combos with other ults to deal with them, and then one of the other three healers just pops another one after you just blew two of yours to counter one. Even countering Cloak ult as Magneto requires you to activate it as soon as possible, maintain LoS with her, and hit her at the end of her final dash hoping she doesn't get protected by a shield or get behind cover before you build up enough damage to one shot her. Healer ults should make assist you in surviving an ult long enough to get rid of the other DPS character ulting or to survive through it. Not make you immune to all non insta kills for ten years and bring the game to a stalemate. TF2 had a weapon with a similar ult effect to all of these ults through it's "ubercharge" mechanic, and even though you had to manually select each person to give them the healing boost as long as you held the healing beam on them, it was still banned because it was too strong, and you were only allowed to have one Medic in comp. The funny part is that with enough focus fire, you could still sometimes kill the person getting ubered with the quickfix. You literally cannot kill anybody with enough focus fire during Luna/Mantis/Cloak ult unless everybody simultaneously lands all headshots. It's just bad game design to make your entire team unkillable. They basically just slapped a better Zenyatta Ult/Quickfix uber on half of the healers and called it a day without considering how cancerous it would be to deal with three of them at once in a massive AOE.
I would agree with this if there weren't snipers and flankers in the game, not to mention the pure popularity of them. Supports are the center target of the game, and they have like 0 self defense mechanism, which forces them to have high dps potential with passive healing just so they don't get obliterated by random things. The only exception is Invisible Woman and Jeff, who can press a button to basically become untouchable, not to mention Jeff's bubble almost insta-heals his hp. Mantis's healing potential is really low due to her low orb charges added with the fact her healing is regenerative than immediate, so she needs to put in good dmg in order to remain a good character. Luna's outward healing is amazing, but she almost has no way or regenerating herself, and since her absolute-zero is much harder to land than Mantis' sleep, she needs to at least be a good support, not to mention Luna's ult basically turns the situation into a 5v6, unlike other support ults Loki is honestly just annoying. Idc what you say about this guy. Like, he has 3 get-away abilities with one making him immortal. Rocket's primary fire is weaker than most healer's primary for some reason, and since he is pretty easy to land head-shots against, he needs to at least have team and self-preserving capabilities Cloak ane Dagger is honestly too good. No wonder why everyone has a Lord in that character. Good healing, good dmg, immortality, blind, heal bubble, auto-aim, offensive land-control ult which doesn't involve the support to be alive, this character is brain-dead. Adam's entire playstyle requires the team to stick together, and although he can basically make everyone immortal, he is getting soloed if there is less than 4 people around him. Although his dmg might be a bit too good, at least his ult is easy to counter. Summary: supports are the center target of the opponents. Since they remain mostly on the back, and since their teammates don't have eyes on their back to immediately help the supports if they are in danger, the supports need at least some defensive capabilities to keep themselves alive. Although the support ults are overtuned, it can be easily punished with other support ults, or just because they pushed too far into the enemy lines. Although I agree some supports are overpowered, they should not get a nerf on their damage, since the only people defending the backline are the supports themselves.
Every support besides adam warlock (even then the charge shot is plenty of self defense ) has a get of jail free card tho so idk why you said there defenseless
This is why i like the supports in the pvz shooters The supports consist of Sunflower, rose, scientist, engineer, and wizard Out of ALL of those characters Omly 2 can heal Sunflower and scientist In gw2 their healing output was extremely passive meaning you didn't have to watch your team mates as you healed them That way you can still focus on fighting enemies similar to mantis in marvel rivals Or in the case of scientists you could either heal your team mates or be the most overpowered dps character in the game due yo his weapon Meanwhile rose and engineer instead focuses on a different kind of support, Interrupting the enemies Rose has two abilities that forces an enemy to either slow down or run away Time snare and goatify While engineer has 1 ability the just shuts down the enemy being stun grenade Both have a great mobility options and do good damage Then wizard in pvz bfn is like a mini dps that doubles as a unique turret like character Not only does he have a way to make a zombie impervious to incoming damage as well as a homing ability but he can also hop on top of other peoples heads giving himself and the ally extra defense and a unique way to support then in a fight All of them are super fun and all are pretty unique
Not to mention it's very hard for Spiderman, who relies on getting the enemy by surprise, has to contend with these healers who very easily undo his damage and over half his resources in that 1-2 seconds of attacking are done.
One thing I can agree on is the length of time on the high healing on support ultimates that make counterplay difficult but also the point of an ultimate clash of what can and can’t just outright kill the supports casting. I think one game I just happened to notice that the ultimate charge rates are not the same across the classes and supports I think we charging an ult faster than the other classes. However I feel one ultimate to stop another ultimate is the point and was something the was argued within the Overwatch community but for opposite reasons. Many Overwatch players expressed their disdain for standard abilities to cancel ultimates after working to charge and use it. Looking at the classes,the supports have more standard skills to stun or stop the enemy, few dps can move but not interrupt and the tanks have ultimate variants that should be powerful but are left underwhelming because they can’t stop already active ultimates. As a Dr Strange main, I find it disappointing I can’t use my AOE ultimate to stop a punisher in his or stop a mantis from moving in her ult, or a Luna to not move in her ult and allow for her soul to be punished and stopped. The final thing though is, the healers have sadly had to enter a sphere where they need something to partially defend themselves against the enemy or everyone would be bored dying. Does it mean make them pseudo dps? No, but if a support couldn’t fight back at least to a dps hero who could take them out but have just as much capability,I can’t find a solid reason to be upset. And I’ve learned that the current community of Rivals is made up of those who have not played a hero shooter and don’t know how to spin their cameras around to care that the supports can be taken out by flanking characters they can’t feasibly out damage like a Spider-Man and Venom team up. So ultimate wise, healers do need to be toned down, but then they shouldn’t be toned down so much that we have more all chats being spammed that there wasn’t enough healing
As a spidey, I hate Adam because I have to essentially kill someone 3 times to get a pick while he still has heals, and its not like it takes a long time to recharge.
Next time when the entire team picks DPS I'm not even gonna go support, why? Because despite being the only one who wanted to do it, and trying my best to heal, the guys will be like "GG no heals, reported for not healing" while there are no tanks, no other supports, and the DPS always rushed in without waiting for the rest of the team, I'm tired of being blamed for the team being objectively terrible.
In terms of the Jeff ult his caveat is that he is targetable after he has done it. That's a great balance. What isn't is how unbelievably easy it is for him to survive by its base healing by being in his dive ability. That's a real issue with that, and so the the games allowance for INDIVIDUAL/DUEL - like, a healer by themself vs their attacker, primarily a duelist/vanguard but more so obviously the damage dealers. For example, I was hitting an iron Fist, by himself, who was just using his self healing meditation move and was out healing me whilst I was stood there attacking him. No-one else around. That should not happen. It is a risk move, if you're hit, even if the move is balanced to be allowed to keep being used, damage to should inherently outplay that.
In my opinion either they need to Nerf the support characters or buff a decent amount of the DPS's ask someone that plays as Peter Squirrel Girl psylocke and Peter Quill a lot it do be annoying sometimes and those are just the characters I play in that category
It’s probably be easier to nerf the healers than buff the dps since 1. There are twice as many DPS 2. A lot can go wrong with specific characters 3. Tanks might have to be adjusted to compensate
One advice, use the spider nest first before ult with peni so the small spider bombs will go over the webs you put on the floor to the enemies that stand on it. Basically making your spider nest larger.
i LIKE that supports can kill.. dont take this away... I agree that support ult heals are BS, literally just an ult farm whenever support ults are up. A lot of people agree Ana is top tier design, i like her, rewards good aim and healing, will always 3/4 shot tho she does tick damage, and she has a huge burst combo if u land a sleep dart on an isolated enemy. Difference is tho Ana must be rewarded, those kills aren't free and shouldn't fall from the sky. I like that Kiriko can 3 tap headshot as well as mantis, but Kuriko doesnt have CC and Mantis does.. i see the problem there. Rivals did make supports wayy too independent which i feel like isnt a problem in it of itself, but just make their output match that. If they are a DPS support like Illari from OW/ Senna from League, then make their heals less or more according to their damage, and if they are high damage... idk maybe dont give them fucking CC for a start And i dont like how most of the healers are "attack to heal" instead of having a separate ability for that, C&D is fine but the fact that invis girl can dish out so much damage while also healing is not cool. This is a HARD game to balance but man is it fun as fuck
He needs to stop crying. He's essentially mad because strategist are actually useful. Isn't every role supposed to be useful? No meta comp can have a tank missing, a healer missing, or even a dps
@@victory7763 Honestly if they don’t nerf anything then the next 3 supports better all have anti-heal 😭 This game does an amazing job at making yourself feel like a carry, you are C&D and your DPS isnt doing shit? Go 25-2 or sum shit, that’s amazing game design imo, you should be able to outshine a group of mouth breathers, to a certain extent a kill should be earned and you should be able to save someone from being killed in a split second, but balancing that has proven never easy, i don’t mind the game state at the moment, just less heals idc about the damage
Regarding the Jeff ult, the sound he does is pretty recognizable and the majority of the roster has counter play against it, even more now that the vertical range is half of what it was (thank god).
I think the fact that you are immediately at a disadvantage if you don’t use a healer with an invul ult says a lot. I don’t think there are any team comps that require a specific tank or dps unless you are trying specific team ups. But it is almost throwing to not have Luna, cloak and dagger, mantis, or invisible woman
She’s basically og Brigette from overwatch. She’s killing dive dps. If you didn’t know, Brigette killed the dps role for about a year in overwatch during GOATS meta
Personally, i just think all we need is more unique support ults rather than "hee hee fully heal my team and make them unkillable for x amount of time" If we had more ults like rocket and adam warlock and loki that bring unique utility to the team I feel like there would not be an issue. That or significantly increase support ult charge. There's no reason for such a strong ult to be available each teamfight. Make the ult take a lot longer to charge that way they aren't spam as much. Ults like Luna should be able to fully heal your team considering there's too many characters that have team wipe ults so luna has a reason to have an ult to counteract does, However its still bs that there's at the moment 3 characters with basically the same ult, cloak and dagger, mantis, invisible woman that just make your team unkillable, if it was only luna with that ult I feel like there would not be an issue.
I think the problem isn’t necessarily the individual healing output but rather the defensive healing ultimates and the insane rate Strategists gain ult charge.
I think strategists have a valid reason to be strong, since grinding ladder as a strategist feels absolutely hopeless with randoms. I think any big nerfs (to healing) would have to be accompanied by buffs to independence(escape tools and such) but I think most of the playerbase already hates getting CC’ed by supports when trying to dive
The more independent a healer is, the less incentive they have to stick with the team and do their job, and there lies the current issue. They heal and Damage extremely well, but that doesn’t mean they need to be over-tuned on both. Nor does healing need to be an absolute invulnerability either. Now I can see you have a StarRail profile picture, so you probably don’t know the first thing about video game balance if gacha games are your only frame of reference, but in most situations: Characters shouldn’t be able to play equal parts Offensive and support without a significant down side.
@ most my experience that i draw from comes from ow (gachas more like a side thing for me). But I do agree with your final point. Personally, I’m more inclined to agree with nerfing the damage over nerfing the healing. (Ignoring ults, because I do agree with nerfing stuff like luna’s ult-even tho im a luna main) I think being able to heal enough to carry a shitty team is important to me since without being able to dps like crazy (which is awful design for a support) there isn’t much skill expression other than being good at babysitting your team with heals. Tldr: i think removing support damage capabilities is fine. But they should still be able to heal enough to babysit their bad teammates. Also, I’m liking your videos!! Keep up the good work :D
Bro other roles have it worse. Like you just said strategists need the team to all do well, yeah that's true but a dps and tank can't do anything without good healing. You healing garbage players isn't gonna get negated with more healing. Play more before you try and come up with solutions.
Support ulterior need to be less strong and more diverse. When you multiple healers with effective invulnerability then that means you can stack them on your team. Farming support ultimate is way too fast for how strong they are at negating dmg. The whole game revolves around baiting these ults out. There is no nuance in having 4 zenyatta ults in this game. It’s just poor design and very boring to deal with. I’ve gotten supports ults to %50 in just just 60 seconds.
They have enough escape tools . I’m a solo gm that flexes and even without popping ults, strategist have more than enough util do deal with flanking duelists. They don’t need any serviceability bugs at all. Loki has a bap immo field, sue storm is basically Brigette, dagger can just bubble and fade away, mantis and Luna have self heal and hard cc. They have way too much survival tools. It’s that a lot of support players lack mechanical skill to use them (which is why a lot of people become support mains.
I mean......this is common knowledge. The heal ults are op because they regen so much. But when u do MORE DAMAGE than the enemy has TOTAL HP then it doesn't matter. It's a one shot that cuts right through it all. Only abilities that add HP via shields will save from that. Or ults like magneto sucking up the arrows. Or shields like strange. Hawkeye if you can aim is basically the worst nightmare of anything that isnt a tank with huge shields.
I really don't think the supports dealing dps is the problem here to be honest. They are significantly overrated when it comes to dueling. Most of them have terrible projectiles for dueling, limited mobility, and a single use CC assuming they have one at all. Mantis will get fried 9/10 times by a good DPS in a DPS war unless she can land a sleep, but that's more of an issue with her sleep being a massive fucking AOE for some reason. Her projectiles are terribly slow and she doesn't have good burst damage. To be honest, she's kind of a shitty healer and would not be very good without her ult. I very rarely see a Mantis with top healing unless the other healers are just not healing in the first place and have like some atrocious numbers like 4-6k. She's basically a shitty dps/healer hybrid with a broken ult, and yet she is the most capable of being a DPS of the healers and that's almost purely because sleep allows her to auto win engagements if she lands it, but she dies 9/10 times if she misses. There is nothing she can do to a BP or Magik if she misses her sleep. The DPS doesn't need to be toned down but their healing rates need to be toned down a bit and their ults need significant nerfs or reworks. So far we have four healer ults that essentially do the exact same thing, and a healer than can copy their ults to do it again in a match. Even Valve understood that an effect like this should only be applied to one person at a time and not the entire fucking team.
And this why I say there should be characters that abilities are in the nature of anti-heals and two characters I can think like that would be ghost rider with his ability to harm souls and carnage with him capable of using pieces of himself to harm someone from the inside.
Honestly I just think we need better dive characters to keep the supports in check this would kinda force someone to protect them if they want the full value of healing. The only good Dive character rn is Magik and phylock keep in mind in a game like this with namor and supports can actually fight back it's dive characters need help for example Black panther: even if you do the best combo possible as fast as possible if there is the slightest bit of healing it barely does anything without his ult Spiderman: Hes similar to black panther ir there's the slightest bit of healing it doesn't matter what he does but unlike black panther spiderman doesn't need a team up to reliably kill someone by himself. CapTAIN: He can get in and out and is good at attracting attention but just like the rest he can't kill if there is any healing So basically it's either they buff the damage of the few counters we have to them which makes sense because all these characters are either below average or just average or nurf the ult time sense strategist can get ult for healing and doing damage
The overwatch players are the worst part of marvel rivals. So elitist. Healer ults are too strong, but the constant egoism makes communication to bust through them way harder than it needs to be.
@@HighKnighter to a point i agree but i don't think its very fair that a mfr who is supposed to heal is capable of doing the same damage of dps's if not more while having stuns and in some cases self heals
@daviconceicaodeoliveira3232 Good thing that their damage is usually very conditional (rocket), limited in what damage they can deal (sue, Jeff,) or have limited heals to make up for it (mantis, Adam warlock). Some characters (luna, cloak) do have some crazy kits though where it can do abit of everything.
I'd nerf healing Ultimate's like Luna Snow or Mantis by having them lose 25% ultimate charge everytime they die. Healing abilities like Loki's healing Domains I would nerf the healing rate but can stay indefinitely(unless destroyed) acting as healing stations for retreating heroes similar to the Engineer's Dispenser from TF2.
i don't think healing/damage needs to be nerfed into the ground. there's no form of self heal so if you're supports can't kill or you heal you are dead bc you are solely reliant on them and maybe a few health packs. now certain ults heal WAYY too much looking at you mantis and luna. but yea idk with the damage skilled dps can do, it'll be ggs if supports can't heal it or be able to handle 1 v 1s. that's why i like that they are strategists and not healers bc they are useful in other ways besides healing. and there is good balance with certain support ie sue storm and rocket raccoon. just my opinion tho
Your right about some things but Jeff has one of the worst ults in the game for a support imo. When he’s doing that all the healing from him stops and he usually loses a few people as well from it. Also magneto can kill healers out of ults too with his
That objective based Jeff ult bs hit home cause I’ve been telling folks it’s bs that Jeff literally has an insta win in ranked.. as you know you HAVE to stay on the objective during overtime and well who can make the entire enemy team pay all once? JEFF.. I’ve lost so many close ranked matches dude to Jeff literally having an overtime instant win button smh
I mean I thought they were called strategists Not healer i'm pretty sure the devs said that they are not primarily healers But characters who just so happened to have healing abilities Of course I may be wrong about this But I think I remember the developer saying During one of their videos that strategists are not primarily just healers
Ok excellent! If they aren’t primarily healers then that’s all the more reason to nerf their healing into the ground! Cause right now they are doing both damage and healing disgustingly well
They say that but every strategist is a healer with full on support abilities with half of the abilities being from overwatch. Strategist are just supports. The same exact (non healing) utility can be found on overwatch supports. Jeff Is the only truly unique strategist without overwatch inspiration and he’s by far the worst strategist because strategists play the exact same role as overwatch supports
I been saying this since the beta, never the healing and the ult charge. Dnt even get me started on the corny 3 healer comp thats going on rn, jus makes the game not fun at all
One point i want to cover in 3 answers Jeff ult got nerfed and its warning period got increased in the patch notes this season 2 characters with barrier cooldowns cancel jeff ult for example Hulk,magneto,Magik with her portal,Reed with his thin Mode, starlord dash and one character u thought couldnt deal with it despite having none of these requirements is Spiderman eith his swing if he reacts to the sound ques along what i stated earlier(even without that Nerf spiderman would just either bhop out of it or swing to a nearby wall or be in the air a majority of the time even if jeff ulted it wouldnt effect him),iron man would just be in the skybox,same with storm Also jeff when swallowing someone is liable to potentially die and get punished Will agree that Jeff's damage and his bubble are bullshit ngl and that his ultimate against non mobility/invul characters(which are a good bit of the roster) are screwed
You dont know anything about game design and are very wrong. Healing sucks to play against because everyone wants to play high TTK shooters. Go look at deadlock, predecessor, or paladins. None of those games have ever had these problems. The only solution at this point is to take the supports out at this point.
Its only their ults that are a problem and gimmicks like Jeff healing while swimming. I don't even play mantis but your example of her is poor because shes a hybrid like loki both have a trade off for their damage. Mantis doesn't heal fast enough or enough to be a main healer so she gets to dps. Loki needs all his clones alive to provide max heals and damage. That made strictly clear that "Strategist" are not always primarily healers.
So he can state an actual undeniable fact and point out how that is a problem but you cant take him srrious because you "*FEEL* he only plays the other roles" ? This is why we dont progress as a society...
@ He hasn’t shown his support experience yet, his opinion can really be 100% validated if he has insight on all roles. Cause right now, his opinion is the same as me when I mained Black Panther and SpiderMan non stop before learning the other roles. If he’s gonna balance the game using his experience solely on his assassin playstyle then it’s a heavily biased opinion. I do agree tho SpiderMan needs buffs.
@@whitejester i understand your concern, but, i didnt have to play Luna before i noticed how broken her Ult is, i started on her as my most played Strategist but moved to Mantis, i also didnt need to play her before i noticed how strong her Ult is or how strong and easy to use her Sleep is, she also has busted danage but hey its a projectile and she has lower healing so maybe it balances it out, i enjoy being a menace in that regard hahahhahaha But still, strategists outshine every other class, no wonder the first comp to be discovered and really strong outside of 2.2.2 was a 3 Strategists one.
@ yeah I can understand but I want a true flex player’s opinion. Cause if you dig deeper into the strategist community they absolutely hate Psylocke and think her ult charge rate and ult are broken (it’s not). I’m verrie keen on just being on the fence until everyone learns each role by a margin before we ask for nerfs and buffs, cause everyone is just basing it on their emotions more than actual balance.
I honestly thought jeff memes about killing you're teammates on purpose was just jeff players and their friends. I was in a QP match and we were winning quite easily and then our jeff ulted and got 4 people in his ult. Three enemies and myself and he killed all of us. I thought the guy was new to jeff and told him how he could have saved me from dying and any other teammate. The mother fucker said he knew and said it quite annoyed meaning he killed me on purpose for no reason. I could only laugh in disbelief as this dude killed me just cause he could and didn't give a damn.
Skill issue tbh only ult you have to wait out on is Luna snow everyone else you just need to pick better dps like moon knight his ult can kill ppl in healer ults on top of possibly getting anti heal characters soon just counter pick
He literally mentioned Moon Knight in the video dude. You also shouldn't have to play a certain character and use their ultimate to counter a support ult. Thats not good balance lmao You parrots and always saying "skill issue" Its not a skill issue when supports are brain dead easy. This is coming from a support main btw. When a support main says healing needs nerfed, something isnt right 😂
@@Merrick1067 and you parrots always screaming for nerfs when every character in the game is op in their own right just wait until we get more characters so you can counter supports easier everyone in this game is brain dead easy besides spider man, bp, and bw I play everyone besides those 3 y’all are impatient as hell lol the game is still new with only 2 new characters just wait for more potential counters if the healers are still like this and we don’t get anti heal characters or anyone that can’t counter their ult easier then you can complain about nerfs
I should probably say that this discussion is only made in half earnest. While I don’t necessarily believe everything I say in this video is wrong, it’s more so my means of baiting out what other people think about the situation rather than stating my opinions as objective fact. Since my videos get decent traction, throwing out stuff like this lets me absorb knowledge faster and at greater connivence than players. I’ll look into making a more serious video once I feel knowledgeable enough to do so, in the same way I handled the Spider-Man video.
Nah not when triple supp immortality games happen and you have more than enough time to get a new job, get a girlfriend, eat at a restaurant come back and the match is still going. Shit is annoying 50 million supp ults
Nah. U should see my gm lobbies. Triple support sustain ults. Dps ults are only used to bait out support ults. It’s so unfun. Had a 40 minute game two days ago in diamond lobbies because both teams were playing 3 support and we went double overtime with both our teams pushing the cart all 3 points due to just pure sustain ults and attrition
Dude. Saying just "skill issue" adds nothing to the argument either. Thats all anyone says anymore when people talk about balance in a pvp game. I play support a lot mysel, and i can confidently say that healing is in fact overly tuned and needs a hard nerf. Its so brain dead just spam M1 and your team never dies, or your ults that make your team immortal for half a minute if you stack ult after ult. I play support a lot because of how little skill it takes.@@willbarnes1282
That objective based Jeff ult bs hit home cause I’ve been telling folks it’s bs that Jeff literally has an insta win in ranked.. as you know you HAVE to stay on the objective during overtime and well who can make the entire enemy team pay all once? JEFF.. I’ve lost so many close ranked matches dude to Jeff literally having an overtime instant win button smh
The only game I've seen do a healer role in both a balanced and fun way is Medic in TF2. By far the worst in combat to the point where you're throwing if you're not healing outside of self defense, but just having one medic gives you a massive advantage because he's the ONLY healer. The issue is Rivals designed healers to be way to independent, and basically be psuedo DPS
TF2 is the only game that makes healing in of itself fun. Every other Class/Hero Shooter I've played makes every Healer a Pseudo DPS. For a class who's rather simple on the surface, there's a lot of depth to Medic's gameplay: buffing teammates, managing crit heals, effectively building uber, knowing how to use uber, crossbowing teammates, knowing when to go for ubersaws.
On that we can agree, but allow me to offer some perspective:
What would you say the difference between TF2 and Other hero shooters are on a fundamental gameplay level?
There are several correct answers, but the one I’m looking for specifically is “a more varied cast.”
At the end of the day, TF2 only has one healer, technically two more if you want to count Engineer’s dispenser and Heavy’s sandwich but most would agree on those being secondary features.
Meanwhile Rivals, Overwatch and whatever other shooter you have in your mind has multiple.
This naturally creates a unique challenge when your game has more than one dedicated healer. If they all play like medic, then why bother developing more in the first place?
I believe Mantis is mostly fine in her current state. Generally less reliable heals on a stronger character. We can Leave her as the independent healer and all, but the rest will need some form of tweaking.
Medic? You mean the class that has a one player limit in competitive formats? And this isn't some Valve rules, the community decided that more than one healer is too much. If Marvel Rivals adopts this healer I wouldn't mind.
Adam Warlock is different cause I think he’s truly meant to be a hybrid strategist/duelist, he has limited but powerful heals and a truly unique ability with soul-bond, making him and his squishy allies effectively tanks for 6 seconds, but that’s basically it. His ult despite being a rez is honestly the weakest/nichest strategist ult compared to the rest, Luna Mantis and then Loki basically having invulnerability for 8-12 seconds each is way more useful than losing the teamfight just to get destroyed again, and since Rocket and Jeff have ults that aren’t all that defensive anyways they don’t count (but are technically more threatening than Adam’s ult).
From what I've encountered, supports and strategists are some of the most toxic players completely unable to self reflect on any mistakes they themselves make. They're also the first ones to type GG ez iny experience.
2/10 support mains are at their actual skill level, the rest are boosted egomaniacs.
Imagine needing video game skill to be an egomaniac. Guess that’s why I’m not a support player.
and it's usually the cloak and dagger players who are the first to complain about their team (while they play an auto aim character that can go invis and run, escaping death for free)
@@ZenkoDuosadly thats what "ranked" is for. A number that has no bearing on your life whatsoever that no one in your real life will ever care about but some chase like its the holy grail.
Its just beyond sad really. It's the same thing i wonder with YT. Whatever happened to just doing things for fun because you felt like it. Why does everything need a carrot on the stick now.
as an FF14 player, overwatch, and a rival player just wanna comment on the early part of the video and the common misconception about tanks in hero shooters compared to MMOs like FF14 and kinda explain why supports are built like this.
In ff14 a tank job is to take aggro. Literally stop the enemies from getting to the dps and healers with their stance; in hero shooters the tank job is to take space and apply pressure, not take aggro. The tank is supposed to sit up front and dump resources into the front line of the enemy team so the enemy has to counter this by dumping their resources into stopping this or else they'll get run over. Dive heroes interject themselves into this back and forth by forcing resources away from the frontline and into the back. This is where the tank wants to use their defensive cooldowns on themselves to stay alive and NOT turn around to help the supports 90% of the time. (it's case by case) If the tank turns around to help they're giving up space and pressure that the enemy can take advantage of or even kill the tank. There needs to be a fine line in hero shooters where the supports can deal with dive but also not completely invalidate dive which I think most of the support base kits do pretty well. While mantis can 3 tap you her actual healing power is pretty low compared to the other supports, Luna has pretty good healing but if you focus fire targets with your team with communication you can force her to use her ability, one of her major defensive cooldowns before you even dive her where all you need to worry is the freeze... and etc. The issue really just comes from the ults that are all basically just playing white mage spamming Medica II. And even then I'd argue that their healing power isn't even a huge issue, just more so how long they last. They're just long enough where the supports and tanks can get their defensive cooldowns again right after and you're back in the tug of war like the last 30 seconds didn't matter at all. The only support ult I think where the healing is actually a problem is Invisible women where her ult really does not need that much healing on it... like a passive 60hp/s would be good not 165hp/s.
TLDR;
Supports should have some independence, tanks shouldn't be peeling for their supports all of the time, and they should cut the length of all of the support ults in half or even more
Jesus Christ I didn't realize the invisible woman ult healed that much per second. The quickfix in TF2 only healed 100 with it's ubercharge and only applied to one person at a time, and it was banned in comp because it made that character essentially unkillable and brought the team back up to full health instantly since you could manually swap targets at the cost of losing time on the uber. These ults just do the same shit for the entire team with no downsides lmao. Absolutely braindead design on netease's part.
Support ults are ruining this game honestly, 0 counterplay, 0 antiheal, just wait but if they have luna snow loki and cloak and dagger they are immortal for like 35 seconds. Then they will have everything back up for next fight because they get ulr in 60 seconds.
There’s a good reason we don’t have anti heal. It’ll make melee heroes useless. Maybe Panther but SpiderMan, Wolverine, Hulk, Captain America and close rangers will be useless.
@@whitejester this
@@whitejester 50 % heal reduction for 5 seconds wont be a problem lets stop defending this overtuned heal meta
Bro the Loki and mantis or cloak and dagger combo is FUCKING RIDICULOUS
@@papaxota4725 go ahead. I’m down for experimentals but expect a lot crying from the melee players
Earlier I tried playing each of the supports in QP to test out their kits.
Rocket Racoon seems like the most balanced out of the supports, which also makes them the most disliked by teammates who'd prefer you go Mantis or Luna. His main fire does a lot of damage but it has a ton of fall off to the point he has the lowest DPS past 20M, so you can only really use him at close range.
Cloak and Dagger I feel is truly braindead. I spammed M1 in the general direction of the fight and the auto homing made me do damage or heal constantly and easily out performed all other heroes. Mantis and Luna I think would be fine if their ultimates healing were simply halved. Lunas ultimate damage bonus should also be reduced to 8s to be inline with other support ultimates.
I think Jeff's ultimate should have an option for swallowed teammates to exit out at anytime. Ive seen a few silly plays where Jeff spits melee teammates at enemies but also quite a few griefers who just wipe their own team.
deff play more Rocket he has the most movement out of everyone, i held point for a minute straight just jetpacking and walljumping from cart to building back to cart while i just healed myself the whole time, if you spend most of the time on the ground you are playing rocket wrong!
And C&D is indeed braindead she did not need a buff and now just like.. nerf every support plz.. except rocket.. they designed him well
I think any change to healing or damage is the wrong way to go.
Time/resource.
That's the way that it could it could be helped.
Lunas is the most problematic, it stops the game in ALL ELOs. No other ult has that effect.
Give her a timer or a resource bar for each part of her ult which the player needs to choose which to pop or switch. You still retain the player agency but also its a metric that the opposition can count or note.
As a Flex player, I’ve started to hate how brain-dead easy it is to play pretty much every Strategist character and steamroll to victory, while on the other hand, if I’m choosing to play Vanguard or Duelist in order to learn other characters, I have to hope the matchmaking gods will give me a Strategist player or two who can pull off even a fraction of what they’re supposed to do.
Hard disagree lol. Loki is the hardest character in game
@@HeirOfPontus black panther at a high level is aids and Spider-Man just exists.
If black panther wasn’t buggy as fuck I’d give Loki second place.
“Oooo but he can turn into other char-“
Don’t care. Y’all always going to be copying Luna anyway.
@@HeirOfPontus also he said pretty much every, which implies exceptions
@@ZenkoDuo yes but I think nerfing support ults would make Loki actually use his ult to copy other ults. However, I think the issue is that everything is too dependent on support ults. I’ve had games where we demolished them on the scoreboard but they just had better support ults and won. I think the healing on the ults and the generation should be tuned down.
Yeah it sucks. Im trying to learn venom and I can't because first my healer has to be good, and secondly the rest of my team has to be threatening enough to get aggro off of me and help during dives.
Agree 100% a tank shouldn’t get to live on literally 1 hp and escape with little skill , dive characters are a lot weaker M’s
With is about half of the duelists
"beyond the binary" is tuff as hell
As a venom main, it's really annoying when I pull off a genuinely frame-perfect combo on a squishy and they either A: pop their twelve second invincibility ult or B: someone else taps a single button and gives them a single ray of healing, which heals a third of their health instantly, and also alerts the entirety of the enemy team to my dive attempt.
I lowkey think humantorch will be anti heal
Yea, a burn effect that’ll negate it
@ the only flaw is that they would ban him in higher ranks
@@Dangerwarp maybe, but we’ll need more than one character than can check the healing meta less they just get banned outright in favor of keeping things how they are.
@@ZenkoDuo eh I would not worry in time they will introduce anti heal characters and balance it out
When’s he releasing??
love how we went from "no one wants to play support" to "why are we getting triple supports" in the span of like-- a week
the comp scene of this game is beyond cooked
Ironically enough you still get people who still don't want to play healer, which just leads to you getting murderstomped by the other team that actually acknowledges that triple support is busted.
@@RobBlu-d6uI'll never do it. Never playing support in any game ever. No shot. Maybe tank tho just bc of venom
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing that needs a nerf is the speed of the ult charge for supports. You can literally get c&d ult like every minute if you know what you're doing
There is literally no way you can defend Luna ult lasting twelve seconds. It needs to be toned down to maybe 8 at most so it's more in line with Mantis, but honestly it should probably be even lower since it's a massive AOE. TF2 had ubercharge and that only lasted eight seconds on a single target, and yet the entire meta was based around using ubercharge to make big pushes or preventing them. Meanwhile the Quickfix which was very similar to these ults with it's ubercharge was banned in every single comp because it was too strong and brought games to a total halt when it went off, even though it only gave the healing effect to one target at a time for only eight seconds.
@@RobBlu-d6uyou are comparing something completely unrelated. In TF2 the entire game revolves around ubercharge because those are the ONLY "ultimate" type of skill in the game. There are no DMG ults or Big AoE danger zones, so giving the healer, the class that less people want to play, the strongest skill in the game, was the only way to encourage people to play the dedicated support in a game where 8/9 classes are just DPS in different ways.
And again, the Quickfix is not banned for any particular reason besides that it was never meant to be played in a 6v6 community format, as official TF2 is a CASUAL , not competitively balanced, 12v12 chaos fest, scenario in which the Quick fix is comically known as the WEAKEST of all the mediguns.
Once again brother facts are being spat. It's genuinely annoying as Spider-Man main when I try to do anything and the healers ult or really do anything and thus making my threat level nonexistent. Welp time to wait the 8-12 seconds before I can play the game again and at that point it's a 5 vs 6 and my teammates all die
Yeah that's the major obvious thing no one talks about. Cause when one team is Invincible they aren't just standing there, they're eliminating the non Invincible team with no counter.
I'm a mantis player and I basically save my ult for when a Spider-Man wanna play hero cause that ult is all y'all do
@@measlesplease1266 Valve knew this years ago and only let the healer give this effect to one target at a time. NetEase somehow thinks letting most healers give a team wide effect for an even longer amount of time than ubercharge made sense lmao
@@RobBlu-d6u i hope it's just so noobs can ease into the game and then they'll change it. If not, I have no faith in their game design and probably will quit.
@@Realninjagamer28 Exactly lol you hard counter for no reason
@1:28 I feel very called out
to be fair, if strategist ults weren’t this strong, DPS ultimates would get team wipes every single use. DPS ults need to be tuned down along with strategist ults.
Yeah, the balance in this game at the moment feels a lot like you either die instantly or you never die, with very little in-between.
Yea especially winter soldier wtf is that bs the ability to spam like 10 ults is BEYOND INSANE
@@cwavygaming6615yet people don’t wanna bring him him Hela Wanda or moon knight or storms ult up when the enemy team has a healer
12 seconds of near invulnerability is absolutely overkill for countering a DPS ult. Nothing changes if you just make the DPS ults weaker at the same time. Many ult needs a combo with Rocket or Groot/Strange just to counter one healer ult. That's not balanced at all, especially when Punisher can still just get headshot and die during his ult, or Bucky can get cc'd during his and explode. DPS ults can be counters without ults. Healer ults require obscene setup and combos with other ults to deal with them, and then one of the other three healers just pops another one after you just blew two of yours to counter one. Even countering Cloak ult as Magneto requires you to activate it as soon as possible, maintain LoS with her, and hit her at the end of her final dash hoping she doesn't get protected by a shield or get behind cover before you build up enough damage to one shot her. Healer ults should make assist you in surviving an ult long enough to get rid of the other DPS character ulting or to survive through it. Not make you immune to all non insta kills for ten years and bring the game to a stalemate.
TF2 had a weapon with a similar ult effect to all of these ults through it's "ubercharge" mechanic, and even though you had to manually select each person to give them the healing boost as long as you held the healing beam on them, it was still banned because it was too strong, and you were only allowed to have one Medic in comp. The funny part is that with enough focus fire, you could still sometimes kill the person getting ubered with the quickfix. You literally cannot kill anybody with enough focus fire during Luna/Mantis/Cloak ult unless everybody simultaneously lands all headshots. It's just bad game design to make your entire team unkillable. They basically just slapped a better Zenyatta Ult/Quickfix uber on half of the healers and called it a day without considering how cancerous it would be to deal with three of them at once in a massive AOE.
@@RobBlu-d6u iron man can only be countered by Loki so not invincible
I would agree with this if there weren't snipers and flankers in the game, not to mention the pure popularity of them. Supports are the center target of the game, and they have like 0 self defense mechanism, which forces them to have high dps potential with passive healing just so they don't get obliterated by random things. The only exception is Invisible Woman and Jeff, who can press a button to basically become untouchable, not to mention Jeff's bubble almost insta-heals his hp.
Mantis's healing potential is really low due to her low orb charges added with the fact her healing is regenerative than immediate, so she needs to put in good dmg in order to remain a good character.
Luna's outward healing is amazing, but she almost has no way or regenerating herself, and since her absolute-zero is much harder to land than Mantis' sleep, she needs to at least be a good support, not to mention Luna's ult basically turns the situation into a 5v6, unlike other support ults
Loki is honestly just annoying. Idc what you say about this guy. Like, he has 3 get-away abilities with one making him immortal.
Rocket's primary fire is weaker than most healer's primary for some reason, and since he is pretty easy to land head-shots against, he needs to at least have team and self-preserving capabilities
Cloak ane Dagger is honestly too good. No wonder why everyone has a Lord in that character. Good healing, good dmg, immortality, blind, heal bubble, auto-aim, offensive land-control ult which doesn't involve the support to be alive, this character is brain-dead.
Adam's entire playstyle requires the team to stick together, and although he can basically make everyone immortal, he is getting soloed if there is less than 4 people around him. Although his dmg might be a bit too good, at least his ult is easy to counter.
Summary: supports are the center target of the opponents. Since they remain mostly on the back, and since their teammates don't have eyes on their back to immediately help the supports if they are in danger, the supports need at least some defensive capabilities to keep themselves alive. Although the support ults are overtuned, it can be easily punished with other support ults, or just because they pushed too far into the enemy lines. Although I agree some supports are overpowered, they should not get a nerf on their damage, since the only people defending the backline are the supports themselves.
Every support besides adam warlock (even then the charge shot is plenty of self defense ) has a get of jail free card tho so idk why you said there defenseless
Bro I literally got gb by a thor and venom EVERY TIME I CAME BACK and couldn’t do anything shi as annoying 💀
@@ToastedMap1eno it isn’t because of moon knight bucket starlord peni magneto etc
This is why i like the supports in the pvz shooters
The supports consist of
Sunflower, rose, scientist, engineer, and wizard
Out of ALL of those characters
Omly 2 can heal
Sunflower and scientist
In gw2 their healing output was extremely passive meaning you didn't have to watch your team mates as you healed them
That way you can still focus on fighting enemies similar to mantis in marvel rivals
Or in the case of scientists you could either heal your team mates or be the most overpowered dps character in the game due yo his weapon
Meanwhile rose and engineer instead focuses on a different kind of support,
Interrupting the enemies
Rose has two abilities that forces an enemy to either slow down or run away
Time snare and goatify
While engineer has 1 ability the just shuts down the enemy being stun grenade
Both have a great mobility options and do good damage
Then wizard in pvz bfn is like a mini dps that doubles as a unique turret like character
Not only does he have a way to make a zombie impervious to incoming damage as well as a homing ability but he can also hop on top of other peoples heads giving himself and the ally extra defense and a unique way to support then in a fight
All of them are super fun and all are pretty unique
Not to mention it's very hard for Spiderman, who relies on getting the enemy by surprise, has to contend with these healers who very easily undo his damage and over half his resources in that 1-2 seconds of attacking are done.
One thing I can agree on is the length of time on the high healing on support ultimates that make counterplay difficult but also the point of an ultimate clash of what can and can’t just outright kill the supports casting. I think one game I just happened to notice that the ultimate charge rates are not the same across the classes and supports I think we charging an ult faster than the other classes. However I feel one ultimate to stop another ultimate is the point and was something the was argued within the Overwatch community but for opposite reasons. Many Overwatch players expressed their disdain for standard abilities to cancel ultimates after working to charge and use it. Looking at the classes,the supports have more standard skills to stun or stop the enemy, few dps can move but not interrupt and the tanks have ultimate variants that should be powerful but are left underwhelming because they can’t stop already active ultimates. As a Dr Strange main, I find it disappointing I can’t use my AOE ultimate to stop a punisher in his or stop a mantis from moving in her ult, or a Luna to not move in her ult and allow for her soul to be punished and stopped. The final thing though is, the healers have sadly had to enter a sphere where they need something to partially defend themselves against the enemy or everyone would be bored dying. Does it mean make them pseudo dps? No, but if a support couldn’t fight back at least to a dps hero who could take them out but have just as much capability,I can’t find a solid reason to be upset. And I’ve learned that the current community of Rivals is made up of those who have not played a hero shooter and don’t know how to spin their cameras around to care that the supports can be taken out by flanking characters they can’t feasibly out damage like a Spider-Man and Venom team up. So ultimate wise, healers do need to be toned down, but then they shouldn’t be toned down so much that we have more all chats being spammed that there wasn’t enough healing
As a spidey, I hate Adam because I have to essentially kill someone 3 times to get a pick while he still has heals, and its not like it takes a long time to recharge.
Next time when the entire team picks DPS I'm not even gonna go support, why? Because despite being the only one who wanted to do it, and trying my best to heal, the guys will be like "GG no heals, reported for not healing" while there are no tanks, no other supports, and the DPS always rushed in without waiting for the rest of the team, I'm tired of being blamed for the team being objectively terrible.
In terms of the Jeff ult his caveat is that he is targetable after he has done it. That's a great balance.
What isn't is how unbelievably easy it is for him to survive by its base healing by being in his dive ability.
That's a real issue with that, and so the the games allowance for INDIVIDUAL/DUEL - like, a healer by themself vs their attacker, primarily a duelist/vanguard but more so obviously the damage dealers.
For example, I was hitting an iron Fist, by himself, who was just using his self healing meditation move and was out healing me whilst I was stood there attacking him.
No-one else around.
That should not happen. It is a risk move, if you're hit, even if the move is balanced to be allowed to keep being used, damage to should inherently outplay that.
depends on which charecter u used against that iron fist... if you were a support then yeah it kinda makes sense..
Bro....I HATE Jeff. I've been sabotaged by Jeffs on my team so many times because they think it's funny to swallow the tank for no reason.
In my opinion either they need to Nerf the support characters or buff a decent amount of the DPS's ask someone that plays as Peter Squirrel Girl psylocke and Peter Quill a lot it do be annoying sometimes and those are just the characters I play in that category
It’s probably be easier to nerf the healers than buff the dps since
1. There are twice as many DPS
2. A lot can go wrong with specific characters
3. Tanks might have to be adjusted to compensate
One advice, use the spider nest first before ult with peni so the small spider bombs will go over the webs you put on the floor to the enemies that stand on it. Basically making your spider nest larger.
I already thought to do that immediately after the game you watched in this video.
Tried it in the practice range and it didn’t seem to work.
@@ZenkoDuo it does work...
I said it “didn’t seem to”
i LIKE that supports can kill.. dont take this away... I agree that support ult heals are BS, literally just an ult farm whenever support ults are up. A lot of people agree Ana is top tier design, i like her, rewards good aim and healing, will always 3/4 shot tho she does tick damage, and she has a huge burst combo if u land a sleep dart on an isolated enemy. Difference is tho Ana must be rewarded, those kills aren't free and shouldn't fall from the sky. I like that Kiriko can 3 tap headshot as well as mantis, but Kuriko doesnt have CC and Mantis does.. i see the problem there.
Rivals did make supports wayy too independent which i feel like isnt a problem in it of itself, but just make their output match that. If they are a DPS support like Illari from OW/ Senna from League, then make their heals less or more according to their damage, and if they are high damage... idk maybe dont give them fucking CC for a start And i dont like how most of the healers are "attack to heal" instead of having a separate ability for that, C&D is fine but the fact that invis girl can dish out so much damage while also healing is not cool.
This is a HARD game to balance but man is it fun as fuck
He needs to stop crying. He's essentially mad because strategist are actually useful. Isn't every role supposed to be useful? No meta comp can have a tank missing, a healer missing, or even a dps
@@victory7763 Honestly if they don’t nerf anything then the next 3 supports better all have anti-heal 😭
This game does an amazing job at making yourself feel like a carry, you are C&D and your DPS isnt doing shit? Go 25-2 or sum shit, that’s amazing game design imo, you should be able to outshine a group of mouth breathers, to a certain extent a kill should be earned and you should be able to save someone from being killed in a split second, but balancing that has proven never easy, i don’t mind the game state at the moment, just less heals idc about the damage
@@vroom221 I agree 100%
Regarding the Jeff ult, the sound he does is pretty recognizable and the majority of the roster has counter play against it, even more now that the vertical range is half of what it was (thank god).
@@ShoukerX that’s cap. Sound is recognizable, but the counterplay part?
HA! And here I thought I was the comedian
They actually nerfed Lunas Ult. You can't spam it back and for anymore
It's like they missed the actual main issue with the ult and just fixed an unintended mechanic.
@RobBlu-d6u true I only think it lasts just a little too long drop it down to 10-9 seconds.
@@DeejayMC25I think that’s still too long tbh
I think the fact that you are immediately at a disadvantage if you don’t use a healer with an invul ult says a lot. I don’t think there are any team comps that require a specific tank or dps unless you are trying specific team ups. But it is almost throwing to not have Luna, cloak and dagger, mantis, or invisible woman
Invisible Woman is the bane of my existence in comp it's basically GG of you don't have Susan on your team.
Her ultimate doesn’t make her invincible
She’s basically og Brigette from overwatch. She’s killing dive dps. If you didn’t know, Brigette killed the dps role for about a year in overwatch during GOATS meta
Personally, i just think all we need is more unique support ults rather than "hee hee fully heal my team and make them unkillable for x amount of time"
If we had more ults like rocket and adam warlock and loki that bring unique utility to the team I feel like there would not be an issue.
That or significantly increase support ult charge. There's no reason for such a strong ult to be available each teamfight. Make the ult take a lot longer to charge that way they aren't spam as much. Ults like Luna should be able to fully heal your team considering there's too many characters that have team wipe ults so luna has a reason to have an ult to counteract does, However its still bs that there's at the moment 3 characters with basically the same ult, cloak and dagger, mantis, invisible woman that just make your team unkillable, if it was only luna with that ult I feel like there would not be an issue.
How it feels to only play Quick play matches, meaning you dont have to win or stop having fun for a victory
I think the problem isn’t necessarily the individual healing output but rather the defensive healing ultimates and the insane rate Strategists gain ult charge.
Sorry we're so useful. Yep let's nerf strategist so that they are undesirable to play and people can scream about heals more often
xgsolo back at it again
I think strategists have a valid reason to be strong, since grinding ladder as a strategist feels absolutely hopeless with randoms. I think any big nerfs (to healing) would have to be accompanied by buffs to independence(escape tools and such) but I think most of the playerbase already hates getting CC’ed by supports when trying to dive
The more independent a healer is, the less incentive they have to stick with the team and do their job, and there lies the current issue.
They heal and Damage extremely well, but that doesn’t mean they need to be over-tuned on both. Nor does healing need to be an absolute invulnerability either.
Now I can see you have a StarRail profile picture, so you probably don’t know the first thing about video game balance if gacha games are your only frame of reference, but in most situations:
Characters shouldn’t be able to play equal parts Offensive and support without a significant down side.
@ most my experience that i draw from comes from ow (gachas more like a side thing for me). But I do agree with your final point. Personally, I’m more inclined to agree with nerfing the damage over nerfing the healing.
(Ignoring ults, because I do agree with nerfing stuff like luna’s ult-even tho im a luna main) I think being able to heal enough to carry a shitty team is important to me since without being able to dps like crazy (which is awful design for a support) there isn’t much skill expression other than being good at babysitting your team with heals.
Tldr: i think removing support damage capabilities is fine. But they should still be able to heal enough to babysit their bad teammates.
Also, I’m liking your videos!! Keep up the good work :D
Bro other roles have it worse. Like you just said strategists need the team to all do well, yeah that's true but a dps and tank can't do anything without good healing. You healing garbage players isn't gonna get negated with more healing. Play more before you try and come up with solutions.
Support ulterior need to be less strong and more diverse. When you multiple healers with effective invulnerability then that means you can stack them on your team. Farming support ultimate is way too fast for how strong they are at negating dmg. The whole game revolves around baiting these ults out. There is no nuance in having 4 zenyatta ults in this game. It’s just poor design and very boring to deal with. I’ve gotten supports ults to %50 in just just 60 seconds.
They have enough escape tools . I’m a solo gm that flexes and even without popping ults, strategist have more than enough util do deal with flanking duelists. They don’t need any serviceability bugs at all. Loki has a bap immo field, sue storm is basically Brigette, dagger can just bubble and fade away, mantis and Luna have self heal and hard cc. They have way too much survival tools. It’s that a lot of support players lack mechanical skill to use them (which is why a lot of people become support mains.
I found out recently that while cloak and dagger are doing their ult hawkeye can kill them with a headshot
I mean......this is common knowledge.
The heal ults are op because they regen so much. But when u do MORE DAMAGE than the enemy has TOTAL HP then it doesn't matter. It's a one shot that cuts right through it all.
Only abilities that add HP via shields will save from that. Or ults like magneto sucking up the arrows. Or shields like strange.
Hawkeye if you can aim is basically the worst nightmare of anything that isnt a tank with huge shields.
@@thedoomslayer5863 hawkeye can't actully headshot them trho since your meter doesnt charge by looking at them
I really don't think the supports dealing dps is the problem here to be honest. They are significantly overrated when it comes to dueling. Most of them have terrible projectiles for dueling, limited mobility, and a single use CC assuming they have one at all. Mantis will get fried 9/10 times by a good DPS in a DPS war unless she can land a sleep, but that's more of an issue with her sleep being a massive fucking AOE for some reason. Her projectiles are terribly slow and she doesn't have good burst damage. To be honest, she's kind of a shitty healer and would not be very good without her ult. I very rarely see a Mantis with top healing unless the other healers are just not healing in the first place and have like some atrocious numbers like 4-6k. She's basically a shitty dps/healer hybrid with a broken ult, and yet she is the most capable of being a DPS of the healers and that's almost purely because sleep allows her to auto win engagements if she lands it, but she dies 9/10 times if she misses. There is nothing she can do to a BP or Magik if she misses her sleep. The DPS doesn't need to be toned down but their healing rates need to be toned down a bit and their ults need significant nerfs or reworks. So far we have four healer ults that essentially do the exact same thing, and a healer than can copy their ults to do it again in a match. Even Valve understood that an effect like this should only be applied to one person at a time and not the entire fucking team.
And this why I say there should be characters that abilities are in the nature of anti-heals and two characters I can think like that would be ghost rider with his ability to harm souls and carnage with him capable of using pieces of himself to harm someone from the inside.
I had a teammate Jeff jump off a cliff with me today. I got on the mic like Jeff why????? 🤣
Honestly I just think we need better dive characters to keep the supports in check this would kinda force someone to protect them if they want the full value of healing.
The only good Dive character rn is Magik and phylock keep in mind in a game like this with namor and supports can actually fight back it's dive characters need help for example
Black panther: even if you do the best combo possible as fast as possible if there is the slightest bit of healing it barely does anything without his ult
Spiderman: Hes similar to black panther ir there's the slightest bit of healing it doesn't matter what he does but unlike black panther spiderman doesn't need a team up to reliably kill someone by himself.
CapTAIN: He can get in and out and is good at attracting attention but just like the rest he can't kill if there is any healing
So basically it's either they buff the damage of the few counters we have to them which makes sense because all these characters are either below average or just average or nurf the ult time sense strategist can get ult for healing and doing damage
2 minutes in and i think this guy started recording after one REALLY bad match
He's basically saying he wants strategists to no longer be useful
The overwatch players are the worst part of marvel rivals. So elitist. Healer ults are too strong, but the constant egoism makes communication to bust through them way harder than it needs to be.
I never engaged with Overwatch beyond hentai so I wouldn’t know about that
I’ll just have to take your word for it
Also, strategists being strong are fine. They are not heal bots. Making them that means no one will play them.
@@HighKnighter to a point i agree but i don't think its very fair that a mfr who is supposed to heal is capable of doing the same damage of dps's if not more while having stuns and in some cases self heals
@daviconceicaodeoliveira3232 Good thing that their damage is usually very conditional (rocket), limited in what damage they can deal (sue, Jeff,) or have limited heals to make up for it (mantis, Adam warlock). Some characters (luna, cloak) do have some crazy kits though where it can do abit of everything.
I'd nerf healing Ultimate's like Luna Snow or Mantis by having them lose 25% ultimate charge everytime they die. Healing abilities like Loki's healing Domains I would nerf the healing rate but can stay indefinitely(unless destroyed) acting as healing stations for retreating heroes similar to the Engineer's Dispenser from TF2.
yo dude banger video love your rants
Well thank you.
I’ve been told I yap alot so there’s certainly never going to be a shortage of things to say.
Mantis cant nonstop heal. Thats her disadvantage. And you actually need skill to manage when to heal with her
i don't think healing/damage needs to be nerfed into the ground. there's no form of self heal so if you're supports can't kill or you heal you are dead bc you are solely reliant on them and maybe a few health packs. now certain ults heal WAYY too much looking at you mantis and luna. but yea idk with the damage skilled dps can do, it'll be ggs if supports can't heal it or be able to handle 1 v 1s. that's why i like that they are strategists and not healers bc they are useful in other ways besides healing. and there is good balance with certain support ie sue storm and rocket raccoon. just my opinion tho
Your right about some things but Jeff has one of the worst ults in the game for a support imo. When he’s doing that all the healing from him stops and he usually loses a few people as well from it. Also magneto can kill healers out of ults too with his
I play a pretty mean magneto. I always keep an eye on my team and pass around shields.. the supports usually end up hanging out with me 🤷♂️
That objective based Jeff ult bs hit home cause I’ve been telling folks it’s bs that Jeff literally has an insta win in ranked.. as you know you HAVE to stay on the objective during overtime and well who can make the entire enemy team pay all once? JEFF.. I’ve lost so many close ranked matches dude to Jeff literally having an overtime instant win button smh
I know another world where you can do 15k dmg on 250 HP targets and get 12 kills! It’s called Overwatch 2! 🤣🤣🤣
This world sounds like it has good hentai
I mean I thought they were called strategists Not healer i'm pretty sure the devs said that they are not primarily healers But characters who just so happened to have healing abilities Of course I may be wrong about this But I think I remember the developer saying During one of their videos that strategists are not primarily just healers
Ok excellent! If they aren’t primarily healers then that’s all the more reason to nerf their healing into the ground!
Cause right now they are doing both damage and healing disgustingly well
They say that but every strategist is a healer with full on support abilities with half of the abilities being from overwatch. Strategist are just supports. The same exact (non healing) utility can be found on overwatch supports. Jeff Is the only truly unique strategist without overwatch inspiration and he’s by far the worst strategist because strategists play the exact same role as overwatch supports
Jeff ult go brrrr
I been saying this since the beta, never the healing and the ult charge. Dnt even get me started on the corny 3 healer comp thats going on rn, jus makes the game not fun at all
One point i want to cover in 3 answers
Jeff ult got nerfed and its warning period got increased in the patch notes this season
2 characters with barrier cooldowns cancel jeff ult for example Hulk,magneto,Magik with her portal,Reed with his thin Mode, starlord dash and one character u thought couldnt deal with it despite having none of these requirements is Spiderman eith his swing if he reacts to the sound ques along what i stated earlier(even without that Nerf spiderman would just either bhop out of it or swing to a nearby wall or be in the air a majority of the time even if jeff ulted it wouldnt effect him),iron man would just be in the skybox,same with storm
Also jeff when swallowing someone is liable to potentially die and get punished
Will agree that Jeff's damage and his bubble are bullshit ngl and that his ultimate against non mobility/invul characters(which are a good bit of the roster) are screwed
About the warning period getting buffed: it just cost me my last game.
Like just now. I believed you until it happened to me just now
Ive rage quit so many times because of jeff ult lmfao. Nothing tilts me like that ult does.
Idk who thought it was okay w that shit coming out instantly with ZERO warning
I hope they just did it to get noobs into the game and they have a plan to nerf them. Cause it seems so blatantly horrendous.
You dont know anything about game design and are very wrong. Healing sucks to play against because everyone wants to play high TTK shooters. Go look at deadlock, predecessor, or paladins. None of those games have ever had these problems. The only solution at this point is to take the supports out at this point.
I used to major in game development you dumb fuck
@ZenkoDuo i stand by what i said.
Get a refund @@ZenkoDuo
I once nuked a luna snow ult with scarlet witch. Hella hard to pull off tho.
I hear this is only on quickplay but mantis ult comes back way too often, some be 3 mins apart
Its only their ults that are a problem and gimmicks like Jeff healing while swimming. I don't even play mantis but your example of her is poor because shes a hybrid like loki both have a trade off for their damage. Mantis doesn't heal fast enough or enough to be a main healer so she gets to dps. Loki needs all his clones alive to provide max heals and damage.
That made strictly clear that "Strategist" are not always primarily healers.
Mantis got nerfed already also
I can’t really take you seriously. Your opinion is only half valid cause I get a sense you only play vanguard and duelist.
So he can state an actual undeniable fact and point out how that is a problem but you cant take him srrious because you "*FEEL* he only plays the other roles" ? This is why we dont progress as a society...
@ He hasn’t shown his support experience yet, his opinion can really be 100% validated if he has insight on all roles. Cause right now, his opinion is the same as me when I mained Black Panther and SpiderMan non stop before learning the other roles. If he’s gonna balance the game using his experience solely on his assassin playstyle then it’s a heavily biased opinion. I do agree tho SpiderMan needs buffs.
@@whitejester i understand your concern, but, i didnt have to play Luna before i noticed how broken her Ult is, i started on her as my most played Strategist but moved to Mantis, i also didnt need to play her before i noticed how strong her Ult is or how strong and easy to use her Sleep is, she also has busted danage but hey its a projectile and she has lower healing so maybe it balances it out, i enjoy being a menace in that regard hahahhahaha
But still, strategists outshine every other class, no wonder the first comp to be discovered and really strong outside of 2.2.2 was a 3 Strategists one.
@ yeah I can understand but I want a true flex player’s opinion. Cause if you dig deeper into the strategist community they absolutely hate Psylocke and think her ult charge rate and ult are broken (it’s not).
I’m verrie keen on just being on the fence until everyone learns each role by a margin before we ask for nerfs and buffs, cause everyone is just basing it on their emotions more than actual balance.
You cant spam with luna ult anymore, that was patch
I honestly thought jeff memes about killing you're teammates on purpose was just jeff players and their friends. I was in a QP match and we were winning quite easily and then our jeff ulted and got 4 people in his ult. Three enemies and myself and he killed all of us. I thought the guy was new to jeff and told him how he could have saved me from dying and any other teammate. The mother fucker said he knew and said it quite annoyed meaning he killed me on purpose for no reason. I could only laugh in disbelief as this dude killed me just cause he could and didn't give a damn.
I had the most kills on our team that game so it wasn't cause I wronged him with my terrible gameplay or some shit.
7:04 what about the bell
whats ur rank?
FFXIV mentioned-
Skill issue tbh only ult you have to wait out on is Luna snow everyone else you just need to pick better dps like moon knight his ult can kill ppl in healer ults on top of possibly getting anti heal characters soon just counter pick
Cloak and dagger ult u also have to wait out wut do u mean
@ that’s it other than that you can out dps everyone else’s with the right dps
He literally mentioned Moon Knight in the video dude. You also shouldn't have to play a certain character and use their ultimate to counter a support ult. Thats not good balance lmao You parrots and always saying "skill issue" Its not a skill issue when supports are brain dead easy. This is coming from a support main btw. When a support main says healing needs nerfed, something isnt right 😂
@@Merrick1067 and you parrots always screaming for nerfs when every character in the game is op in their own right just wait until we get more characters so you can counter supports easier everyone in this game is brain dead easy besides spider man, bp, and bw I play everyone besides those 3 y’all are impatient as hell lol the game is still new with only 2 new characters just wait for more potential counters if the healers are still like this and we don’t get anti heal characters or anyone that can’t counter their ult easier then you can complain about nerfs
@@immortalbeast6518 also loki who can copy luna and mantis you ALSO have to wait out
I should probably say that this discussion is only made in half earnest.
While I don’t necessarily believe everything I say in this video is wrong, it’s more so my means of baiting out what other people think about the situation rather than stating my opinions as objective fact.
Since my videos get decent traction, throwing out stuff like this lets me absorb knowledge faster and at greater connivence than players.
I’ll look into making a more serious video once I feel knowledgeable enough to do so, in the same way I handled the Spider-Man video.
Found you xgosolo 😈
Congratulations though I’m not particularly hard to find.
@@ZenkoDuo bro really deleted all of his videos vanished and refused to elobrate
I elaborated many times. Not my fault if no one listened.
Then again. . . It was one of the many reasons I quit wasn’t it
@ i was talking about your last post the one you said i deleted every video anyway i am happy you are back hope you will be happier in this channel
lowkey, i think its just a skill issue problem
I’m dogshit so maybe
Nah not when triple supp immortality games happen and you have more than enough time to get a new job, get a girlfriend, eat at a restaurant come back and the match is still going. Shit is annoying 50 million supp ults
Nah. U should see my gm lobbies. Triple support sustain ults. Dps ults are only used to bait out support ults. It’s so unfun. Had a 40 minute game two days ago in diamond lobbies because both teams were playing 3 support and we went double overtime with both our teams pushing the cart all 3 points due to just pure sustain ults and attrition
Might be skill issue.
Yes. Me healing people to much for to little effort is absolutely a skill issue.
@ZenkoDuo hmm... Wow that really adds nothing to the argument and this is gonna go nowhere. I'll just walk outta this one.
Dude. Saying just "skill issue" adds nothing to the argument either. Thats all anyone says anymore when people talk about balance in a pvp game. I play support a lot mysel, and i can confidently say that healing is in fact overly tuned and needs a hard nerf. Its so brain dead just spam M1 and your team never dies, or your ults that make your team immortal for half a minute if you stack ult after ult. I play support a lot because of how little skill it takes.@@willbarnes1282
And saying “skill issue” was definitely a riveting conversation starter
You sound like a coping noob.
That objective based Jeff ult bs hit home cause I’ve been telling folks it’s bs that Jeff literally has an insta win in ranked.. as you know you HAVE to stay on the objective during overtime and well who can make the entire enemy team pay all once? JEFF.. I’ve lost so many close ranked matches dude to Jeff literally having an overtime instant win button smh