ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ก.ย. 2024
- Make sure to check out the follow up to this video before trying this mod. You can watch it here: • C64 DC-DC Conversion P...
As a final (?) step to hopefully future proof my daily use Commodore 64, I replace the old 78XX linear voltage regulators with modern switching DC-DC converters. I'm testing the results with my old oscilloscope and with a game of Giana Sisters.
The converters I used are made by RECOM. I used the R-78B5.0-1.5 (which is rated for 1.5A, the 1A version will do fine, too!) and the R-7812-0.5. Available from many electronics sellers worldwide.
The 1541 Ultimate II+ is available from ultimate64.com
Maddi's (MsMadLemon) channel is here: / @msmadlemon
If you find this video helpful and/or entertaining please like, share, subscribe and/or consider a donation!
TWITTER: / thejanbeta
PATREON: / janbeta
WEBSITE: www.janbeta.net
TWITCH: / thejanbeta
Thanks!
#JanBeta
![[[OFFICIAL MV]] เอิ้นขวัญให้อ้าย- อ๊ะอาย สกุณาพร | ค่ายเพลงเป็นหนึ่ง](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/83x6L3X3qh0/mqdefault.jpg)
Great to see you back! I did this upgrade to my 48K Speccy and re-purposed the 7805's heatsink to cool the ULA chip. It was cooking itself to death before, now it runs nice and cool! I should do this to my C64 too.
Thanks! Yeah, the Speccys run incredibly hot. Makes even more sense to replace the regulator there than in the C64. Be sure to watch the follow up video before trying this mod. I had a strange issue with the 12V converter.
Woooohooo!!! It’s Jan... Back on air!!
Thank you kind sir. :) Feels good to be making videos again! :)
My Saturday morning coffee is now complete with Jan’s videos back 👍
haha same here :)
Hope you enjoyed both your coffee and the video. ;)
This was a great video. I've often considered using these drop-in replacements but was always a bit leery about the effects of high-frequency noise on the old ICs -- I am by no means an expert, just trying to gather knowledge from other people's opinions -- but these RECOM brand DC-DC converters seem to be well designed. The datasheet indicated 92%-94% efficiency with 15mVp-p typical ripple & noise -- you've selected an excellent component; I am going to purchase some, as well. Thanks for the informative video, and welcome back. :)
Thanks Mark. During my power supply research (well, googling) I read somewhere that the high frequency ripple doesn't affect the old ICs at all as they simply don't react to it because they are too slow... Might be some truth in that. ;)
The RECOMs are recommend by a number of people in forums all over the place so I think they are safe to use. I was actually a bit surprised that there was no visible (and audible) difference to the old regulators at all.
I'll make a follow up with some longer term observations some time.
For the normal 5V from the power supply, the C64 can tolerate a lot of noise and you can safely use power supplies with moderate ripple. For the internally generated 5V and 12V, noise is less desired as they are used to generate the analog signals. The frequency at which these regulators operate (usually a few 100 KHz) is well within the frequency of a television signal, so it is at least a potential concern. But, I think you did just prove that replacement by modern components is feasible. Wether you should use the first low cost switching capacitors that you can find here, is another matter of course.
> Jan Beta well they got smoothing caps after them anyways? or not?
Any switching regulator needs smoothing caps. Ceramic capacitors are preferred over electrolitic capacitors for this purpose. In case low-noise is needed, typically two-stage LC filters are used. A two stage LC filter easily reduces noise by 90dB. In extreme situations a three-stage LC filter can be used. Normally two-stage filters are considered sufficient to make switching regulators suitable for audio-purposes.
leery - no, wary - yes.
To observe a power rail noise you should use AC mode of an oscilloscope and a high Y channel resolution (like 50mV/div).
tzok83 exactly, the way he measured it now will never reveal any AC noise. That's what can happen when people using a scope do not really understand basic electronics......
You’re absolutely right of course. I’m going to make a little follow up video soon using some more meaningful settings on the scope.
Thought the same exactly. Just to check if DC is fine on a regulator a multimeter will be a much better option, since it is much more accurate, especially vs. analog oscilloscope. You can also measure noise on a multimeter in AC mode, provided it is accurate enough...
If you have a high-end multimeter - yes, you can measure voltage ripple on AC range, but most of these DC-DC converters run at about 100kHz (so most ripple is expected to be at that frequency). This is far beyond measurable range for low-end (2kHz) and most mid-range multimeters (30kHz).
AC-Mode, high vertical resolution, high horizontal resolution too.
Ripple with a linear regulator at worst case should only be in the tens of milliVolt.
Also if you are concerned about ripple you might as well add a small filter to the output. Nothing fancy required, 2 small tantalum caps and a coil are enough.
Ahhh. The high speed solder sucker... Great video as always Jan.
Haha, yes, the solder sucker is back. :)
Hello welcome back Jan.Very interesting video as always. Keep up the good work.
Thanks John! :)
Not sure I would do this just to do this, but certainly great to know that this is a great option when the original regulators fail. Thanks Jan!
Thanks! It definitely brings the temperature inside the case down by a fair amount. I'll obviously have to make some long term observations but so far I'm surprised about how well this works. :)
New lab, new C64 project and a mighty interesting idea using modern switching DC-DC converters.
Thanks Mark. :)
Jan, use masking (paper) tape to hold parts in place for soldering. The tape you used can generate up to 3000 volts of static electricity. Great job, though. I really like your de-soldering system.
Apparently I'm this far into your back catalog. Pretty interesting, how do you feel about this mod several years later?
i can watch this kind of video's for hours and hours and i know jack shit about technics or soldering.
Thanks. Glad you enjoy the video. :)
I hope everything is going ok for you ... Happy to see you right back here ! :-) Carry on Jan
Thanks Fabian. Definitely feels good to be back to making videos and tinkering. :)
Hi Jan, I love your videos welcome back.
It is a lot easier to add solder and heat all 3 pins and pull the reg out the other side and then desolder the holes. To measure ripple on a DC rail I use the scope in AC i/p mode and turn up the gain to about 100mV/div this way you can easily see any ripple you can use this to check the difference between old capacitors and new.
Thanks! You're right about the scope. The way I measured was not very telling at all. The ripple voltage is very minor on these RECOM converters though.
Good to see you back in the game man, nothing like a bit of flux fume addiction to wake you up. Just don't start eating flux core solder. I knew a guy that couldn't stop doing that :0
Haha, thanks Thomas. No way am I going to eat solder... But the sweet fumes... Oh, the fumes! ;)
Noise on the power line of the old integrated voltage regulators was better than on the first DC/DC converters.
I wonder they became so good today.
Welcome back Jan. It's a good mod for future proofing your C64 and those recom regulators are fantastic quality. Great vid Jan 😋😋😋😋😋 Kim 🙋🙋🙋🙋🙋
Thanks Kim! They are geat indeed. A bit expensive but they certainly make the whole machine run a lot cooler than before.
Great video. Nice to have you back 👌🏻
Thanks! :)
Very nice video, I wish I had more time myself to tinker with the old Commodore hardware.
Thanks Richard! Hope you find some time in the future. It's a very rewarding hobby. :)
After watching this video before which I was unaware of these modern switching regulator components, I just upgraded my bread bin 250407 / 251137 to use Recom DC to DC converters. I selected the R-78B12-1.0L which is the 1.0A version of 12V regulator instead of the 0.5A version in your video. The specification says that the 1.0A version regulator needs a minimum of 16V. I am getting 18V input. My 5V regulator is like yours at 1.5A except the legs are already bent. The output voltages on pin 3 with just the boot screen are 5.03V and 12.21V respectively with nothing connected except for a video cable. All electrolytic capacitors are replaced including the 4 within the modulator. The PSU is a custom made Ray Carlson.
Update: My HDMI converter box mutes audio when the picture is turned off. So I decided to connect headphones directly to the SID audio using the DIN socket. When I power down then I hear a single 1.2 second duration popping “fart” sound that does not vary much in frequency. As already mentioned by others, it is likely that the 12V regulator is trying to recover when we do not want it. I see on the schematic, that the 12V line powers a transistor Q8 that delivers audio to the modulator. Years ago, I recall a friend’s unmodified Commodore 64 and Amiga 600 making 3 or 4 instances of similar much more elaborate “purring” sounds where each purring instance varied a lot in frequency. The total duration these noises lasted for about 10 to 15 seconds after power down. My friend explained that in his particular instance the sound was due to capacitors discharging and he used the audio as way to know when it was safe to power back on again. I do not believe this is anything to worry about.
Just a question Jan, the R-7812-0.5 has a minimum input voltage of 15V according to the datasheet. Isn't the input voltage to the L7812 9V on the C64? How is this working then?
Very nice video. I've ordered a set of those voltage regulators now. Thanks.
Thanks! Hope it works as well for you as it does for me. Still needs some long term testing obviously but so far I'm very pleased with the result.
Do you think that it's normal that I have like 10,15V in the C19 cap (250407 Rev C)?. I haven't changed the 12V regulator yet.
I'm posting my mods in this EAB thread: eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=89997&page=2
Nice! Been thinking about doing this mysef. The breadbin gets very warm, and you can feel it under the c64 where the regulators are. Perhaps just a 5V switcher to begin with. The ones you have found seems nice quality.
As you have seen in the follow up I settled for only the 5V regulator now. It brings down the overall temperature in the case by a lot so it can't be bad in that respect. The RECOM converters seem to be really good (and expensive) stuff. :)
that solder mask looks so wavy... o.o
It's not the soldermask, the traces are tin-plated and on thick traces it creates ripples under the soldermask. On old boards they often skipped the extra production steps required to ensure smooth finish on such boards since it doesn't affect the performance in any way. Modern boards don't typically tin-plate the traces so the soldermask is applied on bare copper and they don't have the same cosmetic 'issues'.
I also heard somewhere that the tin got too expensive... ;)
Great job! Glad it turned out clean and 100% for you. I need to do this on the 1200XL. ;) It uses a large heat sink + rectifiers setup.
I actually had one strange issue (see follow up video) but otherwise the mod worked absolutely fine. I think I'm going to use these converters for future mods, too.
Nice mod. Keeping the heat away is good for longevity. And it's even reversible.
Yes, I'll have some long term observations to make (obviously) but for now I'm really satisfied with the result.
I'm now tempted to do the same with my old MSX. It has an internal PSU, and the transformer is humming. Maybe SMPS replacements for the linear regulators will bring the power consumption down enough to make it quiet.
When I was a kid I had a game called super mario brothers. It wasn't until about 5 years ago that I learned that it was a hacked reskinned version of gianna sisters. lol It's the same game, but it has a mario sprite instead of the girl.
Is the solder mask peeling off the back of the board? Is that just from age and is there anything you can do about it?
mine was like that when it was new, i think they just came like that.
Blue Tack is also good for temporarily holding components to boards whilst soldering ;)
Probably better than tape even... Thanks for the reminder. :)
Jan: After more than 3 years, are these converters still working fine on that board?
Your desk is so clean! I need to get busy. (cleaning).
Ha! It's back to chaos already now... ;)
Hi Jan! Happy to have you back :D Well, maybe it's just the camera or I don't know, but I see some kind of violet horizontal bleeding on white letters on your monitor... is that normal?
Thanks Gabriel! The bleeding is normal for the old VIC-II chips as far as I can tell. It's not that obvious on CRT monitors but on the LCD screen you can see all the glorious flaws of the chip (like the vertical lines and color bleed). The more recent versions of the chip (used in later C64Cs) have less color bleed but the colors are not as vibrant.
I'm not quite sure if i should do this to my breadbin, picture noise was my main concern, and i am kind of a purist but i want my C64 to last so i think i'm gonna go for it.
Thanks for the video, great quality as always.
It definitely brings down the temperature inside the case by a lot so it's probably a good idea. No long term testing yet, obviously.
Much better lighting in the new room ❤
Mostly thanks to my new studio light. ;)
Jan Beta But camera angle is bad. During desoldering, everything was off camera in some way. Maybe a downward angled camera above or below the monitor instead.
I would try to leave the heatsink on the board for sake of originality even if unused. Thanks for this interesting video.
Hi Jan and welcome back! :D
Did I understand correctly? VRs substitution has improved C64's video output?
No, it didn't improve anything except for the temperature. I was just checking to see if the ripple the modern converters produce introduces noise to the video signal.
Great video Jan. I've been considering using some of these in some recording equipment which dissipates SO much heat into its casing, it's as hot as a radiator after a few hours. But of course I have concerns about noise!
Do you find your desoldering gun blocks up easily? I have the same one and I've taken the gun apart three times to drill out a blockage at the "cold" end near the glass chamber. It's so frustrating!
I did some better noise measurements in the follow up video. It's just a couple of mV so it's probably not an issue for most equipment.
The desoldering gun blocks sometimes, yes. I usually try to clean it after each "session" using the poking bits that came with it and my soldering iron. By heating up the solder in the cold part I can usually get it out that way.
Great Video! Good to see you back! If you are doing a follow up video would it be possible to shw the temp difference between the old and the new? perhaps an unmodified C64 and the this one?
You probably saw the follow up. I'll have to repair a C64 of the same revision and do another follow up for comparing things. :)
Welcome back Jan!
Good job, that should make the machine a bit cooler inside. I'd expect it to work, but the way you tried to look for the noise does not really make much sense. AC mode on the scope (you don't want to see the DC, you are just looking for the AC component), low voltages on the Y scale and play around with the timebase a bit to see different frequencies would have been much, much better. Also remember to probe the input and output sides of the regulators, the input can be noisy too. Manufacturer datahseets always show recommended circuits so you can add caps or inductors on the input/outputs to make the devices preform like they were designed to.
Thanks, I made a follow up video with slightly better measurements. (As you have probably seen in the meantime...) :)
Why is the backside of the PCB so wavy? Do you expect it to cause problems in future? BTW: I already own a Ultimate-II but noticed in your videos that there's a new Ultimate-II+. Directly ordered the new one just to support this guy in what he's doing.
I don' t know the reason, but it is a feature of all Commodore 64 boards up to some date, must be somewhere around 1985. After that the boards did no longer have the waves.
They tin plated the traces to allow for higher current. At least that's what EEVblog Dave explains in one of his videos. Makes sense to me.
I digged a bit deeper and found another possible reason: It should be the solder mask which is above the traces to protect them against corrosion/oxidation. The solder mask consists of a thin colored lacquer. This lacquer now got bubbles over the time, maybe because it expanded itself a bit. The interesting question for me would be: Is it just the lacquer which got the bubbles (remaining the traces perfectly flat underneath) or have the traces followed these bubbles too (and got separated from the PCB only held together by the lacquer)?
The 780x series regulators that are in TO-220 packages are typically rated for 1.5amps. When you draw too much current the regulator freaks out and end up with a voltage drop and from there you end up with oscillations with a few ICs and blash blash blah. What I am trying to say is don't attempt to use a regulator that is rated for 500mA.
Also the reason why the regulator gets hot is it turning 9 or 12 volts into 5 volts and whatever wattage or voltage that isn't used say 12 volts down to 5 volts is a 7 volt drop and if 1.5A then amps X volts gives us 18 watts. Even with the replacement it is still doing that. In all honestly I would bypass the regulator and build a proper switchmode power supply and have it external. This will lower the heat inside the system a bit. Or replace the regulator with one that has a higher amp rating such as the MIC29500-5.0BT that is rated for 5A because I know that c64 must be consuming more then 1.5A Not to mention the MIC has Over Current, Over Temperature, Reverse Polarity, Transient Voltage protection.
Leland Clayton You don't get it. Those black blocks _are_ proper switch mode supplies, neatly put on tiny PCBs and dipped in black plastic. Which means there will be a lot less input current, but equally more ground pin current, as the internal coil feeds the ground during the off part of the duty cycle. Hopefully, C= used a wide enough trace for the 78xx ground pin.
Easy, the C64 mainboard can handle at least 5A on the PCB for both 5V and GND. The 7 pin DIN power connector is the weakest link at about max 3A.
Glad to see you back!
Thanks! Glad to be back. :)
Interesting. I've always wondered what the converters were for - especielly the 5V as it also got 5V from the PSU. I'm about start my clone build and I'm really torn what converters to use. I can't find 1,5A Recom, only 1A, and I'm unsure if it's really needed to replace the 12V. I plan to use a 85xx VIC-II chip even though it's a 466 board which unfortunately isn't as easy to convert as a 407 board but there's adapters for it. Also using an ArmSID further lowers power requirements - at least on the 12v. Then there's also the choice of really using the Recom or a China 2A converter. Higher rating and higher switching frequency and has onboard smoothing capacitors. My concern is which is most likely to fail and what failure mode - no output or full output? Which the last of course will be catastrophic. With time the VIC-II should also be replaced with a Kawari or J-VIC (when they're ready) which again further lowers power requirements. I'll probably try out the Recom as I've already bought the 5V version. But as said I'm quite unsure what to do with the 12V. Can be I'll keep it and mount a small heat sink.
What I ended up using is the Recom 5V converter and an old school linear 7812 for the 12V rail. The switching converter for 12V caused slight issues with the SID (see follow up video). If you use modern replacements, things look a bit different because they usually don’t use the 12V rail at all.
@@JanBeta Thanks for answering. That settle the case. I'll use an old school linear regulator for the 12v too - beside as said if using 8565 (via adaptor as board mod isn't as easy on 466) then the VIC isn't using 12v either so only a SID and the ARMSID is to my knowledge only using that for reference anyway. I wonder if its really make any difference to mount it on a small heatsink or the PCB tracks alone are more than enough. I have a '86 breadbin (probably minor issues with the PLA, never got to look into that because I'm not really using that machine) and actually temperature wise the 12v regulator get quite hotter than the 5v but it also had no cooling. The 5v hovers around 40C according to my IR thermometer measured at the black plastics. You can't measure shiny metal with IR unless you know its emissivity and have a thermometer with adjustable emissivity. The 12v hovers around 52C. Screwed it down with some thermal paste to the board so that the copper can help dissipate the heat and now they're both hovering around 41C - much better - I did take care not to short the back side using a plastic washer under a metal one as not to pinch the plastic one. But I'll going to use as new components in the clone build as possible. Even for a 8500 there's quite a difference in heat. The '86 8500R3 in that breadbin get quite hot where as the '88 8500 in shortboards and a Reloaded MK2 barely heats up.
You want to get a future proof C64 (me too). I want to ask you: Have you touched the VIC and the SID with heatsinks after half an hour? Aren't you worried about so much heat?. I know that those chips were made to suffer that heat.... but that was 30 years ago. I'm actually installing a fan or maybe two. Yes, it can give noise or interferences, that's why I'm checking and trying different options and fans, but I would like to know your opinion or whatever you make about this.
Another thing (or the same): What do you mean in the video when you say that now the C= will run much cooler? Do you refer only to the voltage regulators or does it also affect to all of the chips in general?
Yes, they get pretty hot. Unfortunately there's not much you can do about it except for applying heat sinks and pulling as much heat away from the chips as possible. Adding fans is an option of course. Repair guru Ray Carlsen found that it is pretty hard to position them right to significantly improve cooling. At least without modding the case, it seems to be difficult to get good air flow. Maybe I'll look into that myself sometime but I'm generally not a big fan of fans (ha) in C64s.
I meant that the general temperature inside the case is a lot lower (it got very warm from the outside before, now it's nearly at room temperature). It won't make a major difference for the other ICs but it definitely is an improvement.
Hi Jan, I have a question. which video converter do you use for an LCD monitor? I have an HDMI monitor. Can you point me a product please? Bye and thanks .
Hi, I use a RetroTink2x for s-video and composite (e.g. C64) and an OSSC for RGB/SCART/VGA.
@@JanBeta Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. You're my idol. I'd like to be as good as you are. So, I bought this video converter, but the quality I see on my Benq HDMI monitor is very poor. In your opinion, if I make the mod you propose, would I improve the result?
www.amazon.it/dp/B07RX69KR8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_r.veGbYB2TPK1
reminder to demonstrate the sid chip differences on samples please!
It's on my list! I'm fiddling with a new PC sound card at the moment to make proper recordings of both SIDs.
I was having a look at the parts for doing this and it's certainly something I would like to do as I think I only replaced the 5V voltage regulator in my C64 as that was on the verge of failing (random voltage output drops & dying star temperature when I noticed it)
Definitely brings the temperature inside the breadbin down by a fair bit. The transformer in the PSU doesn't get as warm, too. I'll have to do some long term observations obviously but for now I'm very satisfied with the result.
Indeed, your efforts have been very encouraging :)
Great vid as always Jan. Quick question. I've got a lot of 'extras' connected to my 64; Fastload cart, SD2IEC (Soon to be replaced with a 1541U2+ when Gideon ships the "April" batch) SidFX dual sid and "64JPX" mega drive controller adapters.
I've noticed that the display dims slightly when I press any of the Datasette controls and the Power LED isn't a bright as I remember it.
is this indicative of old, linear 78xx regulators that are no longer up to the job? It has been recapped.
Would these switching regulators be a better option in modern c64 setups in your opinion?
The datasette does use unregulated power, the 78xx regulators are not used for that. If the display dims when you press the datasette controlls, it means there is a voltage drop on the capacitors; too little power is left to generate stable 12V voltage for the SID.This can have two reasons: Bad caps or too low voltage on the 9V line. Check if the recap has been done properly. If yes, then the transformer in the power supply gives too low voltage. Please measure the AC voltage of the power supply both with datasette idle and under operation.
Yes, I'd agree to what Daniël said. The datasette power has nothing to do with the regulators on the board. I recommend checking your power supply or trying a different one.
Thanks guys
Thanks for the great video, that gives me an idea to try same thing with less cheaper ones. Anyway i am puzzled by 12V, how can we get 12V out of a 9V AC? Is it +9 -9 potential difference equal to 18V? And what is your input voltage for the 12V converter?
Kinda. In the positive wave part, a cap is charged to about 10V or so. When the wave goes negative, rectifiers will pump the voltage up to about18V which is the voltage on the cap plus the ninevolts. charge stored from the positive wave is pumped out on the output cap on the negative wave. its a charge pump circuit.
bwack thanks, that's a great explanation.
One thing about the C64 is there are quite a few ferrite beads all over the place in the power supply lines. This alone will probably keep most of the crap that the switchmode regs produce away.
Measuring supply noise - the correct way to do this is to measure at the device consuming the voltage. so at the power pin of the VICII (pin 40 i think). You should AC couple your 'scope and set it to a high sensitivity.
For your scope probe ground, this connection needs to be as short as possible - the best way is to remove the ground lead from the probe, and the "witches hat"... you should find the needle point probe on the end has an exposed metal band around it, which is ground. Then you can use a probe spring like this one: i.stack.imgur.com/7OPgl.jpg
If you dont have those probe springs... well.. i just stripped some CAT5 wire, solid core, and wound it into a spring. Works well enough ;)
You're right. The way I used the scope on the regulators doesn't say much about ripple anyway I guess. Other than the rail is not completely noisy. ;)
I'll do a follow-up with some longer term observations some time and try to do some more meaningful measurements I guess. ;)
Good to see you back in action anyway :)
Hi Jan, do you know where to finde those RECOM at moderate S&H fees in Europe? digikey and mouser have a minimum of 50 euros for free shipping or 20 euros flat.
I bought mine from Conrad Electronic but I don't know what the international shipping rates are. They are also available from various eBay sellers I think. Hope that helps!
Jan Beta found at Conrad. 8 euros! Unfortunately they are a little more expensive than the other sites. 14 euro in place of 9.
That Pez dispenser ... lol
A gift from the kid. And my emergency energy source. ;)
Nice mod........Would be interesting to know if the power supply is actually running cooler and without any side-effects , since they were not designed to supply current to a switch mode regulator. I did a similar mod to a Vic 20 and I ended up with a high pitch noise coming from the power supply.
Thanks! Interesting idea about the power supply. I actually used my self-made one which already has a switching supply for the 5V. The transformer section which powers the 9V rail runs significantly cooler with the new regulators. Will try it with an original PSU soon.
I see, sorry, I overlooked that you are using a switch mode power supply. My VIC 20 power supply is AC output only, so my options are limited. I like the idea of a cool running computer with no linear regulators inside, you have inspired me to look again at options for my VIC. Thanks!
is the LIPS monitor a sister of the PHI LIPS ;-)
why did you put black tape on part of the name Jan ?
Because he thinks it's funny. He explained it in an older video.
oh ok :) I didn't see that video I guess
Yes, it's just a joke. I don't particularly like huge brand logos (except maybe Commodore) so I tend to tape them off sometimes. Thought it would be funny to leave the "LIPS".
oh LOL I was just wondering. its bit of Dutch Nostalgia to me cause you know Philips is a Dutch brand. Now I'm very insulted (ofcourse not !)
You forgot to measure the power consumption before/after...
protonjinx it’s exactly what I wanted to ask. Could you please do in the follow up video and comparing it to unmodified general breadbin consumption?
pinkie pie
yey
to think i come here for vintage computer stuff and the ting that make me hapy was a pink horse :]
Haha, glad you noticed. I'm more of a Fluttershy fan but the kid gave the Pinkie pez dispenser to me. Nice bench decoration. :)
Hi Jan @ 0:56 you point at the upper right corner so to later add a link to that location (about the 4 kernal select) but you forgot. Hope I helped you out with this tip :)
Oooops, thank you sir! I forgot to note that down so I didn't insert the link. Will do so immediately. :)
Jan you're welcome, please call me Maico :)
So I think you defeated the purpose of the ESD mat and strap with the cellophane tape...plastic generates a huge amount of static.
Oh, I didn't think of that. You're right. :/
Another great video, would have been good to get temperature readings before and after the mod. Thanks.
Thanks, the temperature measurements are a good idea. All I can say is that the C64 was really warm before and now it's very close to room temperature from the outside. Significantly cooler.
Why is the bottom of the mainboard so warped?
They put on an extra layer of solder to make the traces thicker to allow for more current.
hi jan what is that thing your showing at the end of dc dc video what is it ? you didnt mention what its called ??? this video is 2 years old woww im late tell us what that thing is in your hand and you mention mad lady will be doing a video for it explaining what it does way to expensive its 300 au dollars in australia not worth it its just have to look into it first nee ya jan
I'm soooo jealous of your ultimate 2 cartridge. I've got the SD2IEC which is lovely, but doesn't work for demo disks and their pesky custom loaders. Hopefully soon I'll have money again and I'll treat myself.
Yeah, took me quite a while to finally get one, too. I used having the Patreon support and making a video about it as excuses... Now that I have it I still think it's the best device money can buy for the C64.
Maybe I should start a TH-cam channel as an excuse for buying things I want ;-)
I already have 18 subscribers. I have no idea why.
You are using an analog scope and the brightness is too high, so your line is 1/10 of a division which isn't useful for seeing ripple in the voltage signal at your current V/div selections. Use a lower V/div setting and adjust your offset to actually see the ripple. On these old scopes you have to constantly adjust the brightness according to your scan/sweep settings to get a nice thin line.
You’re perfectly right of course. Thanks for pointing that out. The brightness looked better in real life than it did on camera but there was nothing to see because of the high V/div settings I used. The ripple according to the datasheet is only a couple of mV so the converters are still well suited for the job I guess.
You shouldve measured the power draw before and after.
Personally I don't like these kind of mods. A linear regulator should be sufficient. If heat is a concern then just mod/add a heatsink. Also DC/DC converters can induce noise on the supply line which could impact sound / video quality.
I was really careful about this mod, too. That's why I compared the picture and sound and looked at the scope. These high quality converters seem to work very well. And they bring the heat inside the case down significantly. I'll obviously have to make some long term observations but for now I am surprised about how well this works.
g412bb is right. As per data sheet, a capacitor can be added between input and ground to remove the “noise” others see when added to RGB modded consoles like NES. 2600RGB comes with capacitor for this fix.
Thankfully we Atari 8 bit users don't have these kind of worries.....nothing overheats with them because Atari was smart enough to keep the PSU completely separated.My concern with modern day regulators is....how long will they last ? I have high doubts that electronics that switch 100,000 times per SECOND will last 30+ years like conventional regulators usually do....that's why I don't do these mods. At least it's a good idea to get a well known high quality brand for this component and not a no-name Chinese one. If a switching DC-DC converter fails it could pass on the full input voltage, destroying parts that it is supposed to supply.....
Leon Kiriliuk I'm pretty sure the original regulators already have filter caps....don't tell me Jack even saved on those.......:D
Pretty sure the big blue and black caps are those filter caps.
Why wouldn't they, Atari Andre? The CPU has been happily switching a million times a second.
Same mod works on TS1000 and it lets you ditch the big metal heat sink.
If you remove that over time it will get lost. If you leave it in place inside the original heatsink will not get lost.
So, how many watts of power did you save in the end?
6-7watts, but the main point is that the Life of the other components is enhanced
can i ask what one does on a daily-driver commodore 64? emails? word processing?
nope and nope! cant word process only 40 columns, email, hah!
E-mail is possible, using Novaterm and a Wifi modem you can connect to a Linux PC where you run Pine or so.
Playing games, listening to SID tunes, watching demos. Editing videos... wait... no.
Hi can you help me for repair a external disk drive for Amiga ?
I can try. Email me at thejanbeta ät gmail dot com. :)
It's hard to tell the difference in the picture in this video but do you believe it's worth doing ? Can you notice ?
The picture is absolutely the same as far as I can tell. This is not meant to improve anything. The result is just that the C64 runs way cooler and draws less current while still having the same picture and sound quality.
I still love LIPS LCD monitor 😂
Ha, thanks! :)
Welcome back! :)
Thanks! Feels good to be making videos again. :)
you know with the people still making games you think some one would have came out with a port for most of the NES games
That would be great. I don't know what Nintendo would think of that though. Maybe their lawyers are the reason it doesn't happen?
My C64 (later model) does not feel that hot, guess mainly bread-bin models suffer from this?
(I did this for my ZX Spectrum to fix the waste heat given off, it was just silly hot before the replacement)
Correct, the later HMOS chipset consumes a lot less power and therefore the voltage regulators also produce a lot less heat. They remain inefficient though.
Yes, the newer board revisions run cooler. The short boards even got rid of the linear regulators altogether and are regulating the voltages using a zener diode circuit. 12V are no longer needed by those newer boards, too, so they run a lot cooler.
hi, where can I buy them?
I bought from here: www.conrad.de/de/p/recom-r-78b5-0-1-5-dc-dc-wandler-print-5-v-dc-1-5-a-7-5-w-anzahl-ausgaenge-1-x-154987.html but it probably makes more sense (depending on where you are) to use the part number as a search term in your favorite search engine to find a source closer to you. ;)
Thanks,u make my day.
sir there is a (YM3526, OPL1). inside of c64
I've never seen one of those in a C64. What do you mean?
Why don't you make a video about your favourite C64 games, that'd be nice to watch.
I actually have something in that vein planned for the future. ;)
who is that lady in picture in your screen ??? catch you
Great video..
Thank you! :)
Liked the video (there's a C64 in it, so it's a no-brainer).
Might sub as well. Let's see what else you've got.
There's quite some C64 content on here. ;)
Those suckers look like they have integrated inductors
They must have. The output is really clean indeed.
Wo hast du die blaue Matte her?
Ich weiß nicht mehr genau, wo ich sie gekauft habe. Die Dinger heißen "selbstheilende Schneidematte". Gibt es in allen Formen und Farben quasi überall.
Hab schon gedacht, das sei eine ESD Matte.
Want anymore Commodore 64/128 books etc. ?
Sure, send them if you have more! Always handy to have. :)
Will do soon.
First I click like... then I watch :D
Ha! Hope you enjoyed. :)
Hi Jan. I have a C64 that, when I turn it on just gives a black screen. Another TH-camr (Jeffrey Birt) suggested that I look at the voltage regulators. Your video appears to have come just in time. My local vendor sells these regulators. Same brand, just different part numbers. Do you think they would work? The specs look good to me...
www.conrad.nl/zoeken?ATT_LOV_CONNECTION_COMPONENTS_any=Soldeerpennen&ATT_LOV_HOUSING_SEMICONDUCTORS_any=SIP-3&ATT_NUM_OUTPUT_VOLTAGES_any=12%20V%2FDC,5%20V&brand_any=RECOM&search=recom&searchType=regular
Yes, all converters on that page should work. I wasn't aware that there are so many different versions. I updated the video description with the exact ones I used (seems to be the R-series). The last 7812 on the page you linked to seems to be the exact one I used. For the 5V one, everything at 0.5A and above should work fine (the C64 should draw only about 0.3A from that regulator).
I believe I saw 78xx somewhere as well so it's all in the same family apparently.
Oddly though I measured no problems with my regulators. One output was 4.97V and the other a touch over 12V. Is it correct that the 5V regulator has 12V input, and the 12V regulator has 20V input?
I also measured the output pins on my power supply but I got 0V on all pins!! The power supply works, so I must have made a measuring error.
Your regulators seem to work alright. The input voltages are approximately right, too. The black screen can be caused by a number of things from a broken PLA to bad RAM. Even a faulty logic IC can cause it. Did you try going through Ray Carlsen’s troubleshooting guides? Highly recommended and you don’t need a lot of special tools.
Thanks. No I didn't. I'll have a look for that.
personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm/c64/
The file called "c64blank" deals with blank/black screens. The IC file is also very helpful. It’s usually my first reference for C64 repairs. :)
I plan to replace my on my 250407 board the L7805 and L7812 with those digital DD4012SA_5V (1A) and DD4012SA_12V (0.8A) that were also seen in Jan Beta's ZX Spectrum video (th-cam.com/video/wjrUhELEAms/w-d-xo.html). Comments?
Too busy. Like now, watch later 👍
Haha, that's what matters most to me anyway... ;)
another good idea if u want to do a lot of modifying i prefer to watch you at work yuo fix like its just a hobby nothing stops u except the xxxx aldi disaster it was not your fault i think the board was tampered with by factory or a amatuer tech before you find it .... i want to buy it if you want to selll it you spent lots money on it and time lots of parts replaced i could not beleive all the damage done i rekon lightning strike into the home where it died ..... any way this project is a good design dc dc convertor
Hi Jan, i can recommend you this recent video from the EEVblog, about power noise, bypass capacitors as well as signal probing:
th-cam.com/video/P8MpZGjwgR0/w-d-xo.html
Ah, that comes just in time. :) Thanks for the link!
I've found this awesome prototype for a remastered C128, maybe you would like to have a look at it! www.the128rm.com/index.php?id=home Cheers, M
have 4 diffrent working c64 with orginal voltage regulators and never had to replace them even they are over 30 years old, all this talks about high temp is bs...
I’ve had two breadbins here with broken 7805s in the last couple of months. So they definitely fail sometimes. And they usually take out the VIC-II if they do. Also, generally bringing down the temperature inside the case is always a good idea I think.
What is that PSU you use for your C64, were did you buy it?
Great video BTW.
Oh, I made it myself a while back. Look for "DIY C64 power supply (the lazy way)" in my C64 videos. :)