Another amazing video. Brother Ramon is a well educated professor having contributed immensely to studies on Maturidi creed in the English speaking world
The fact that the vast majority of Muslim ummah - of Ahlu Sunna- are either As'hari and Maturidi for over 1000 years is evidence enough that the correct Islamic Aqeeda is encapsulated in these two interprtations.. These two ie Ash'ari and Maturidi were formulated independently by two great scholars who lived around same time, the former In Iraq, the latter in Central Asia. The two are almost totally similar and there are very few minor differences only. These two great theological madhabs preserved the correct Aqeeda of Islam. They tread the middle path between extreme literalism and extreme Ta'weel. Thanks Paul for introducing such intellectually stimulating discussions.
Anybody who is sincere with Allah's Deen will lead the Deen. Beautiful to see both of you and your understanding and devotion to knowledge. I haven't seen traditional preachers or scholars discussing such topics.
Assalomu alaykum brother Paul from Uzbekistan, from the homeland of imam Bukhari, Termidhi, Mouturudi. Imam Moturudi's theology is still being taught in our Madrasas. Come and visit these regions as well brother Paul.
Br. Paul you are fighting with fire, bringing on Maturidis and Ash’aris based on where you are and who are usually surrounded by in the da’wah scene lol. May Allah continue to bless you and your family. Keep doing amazing work!
It would be better to introduce the teachings (Maturidi Theology) first rather than the teacher (Abu Mansur al-Maturidi). After Googleing here and there, I discovered some Maturidi Theology features: * Closely aligned with the Hanafi school * Compatibility of reason ('aql) with divine revelation (naql). * Emphasizes the necessity of prophets to provide guidance * Defines faith as belief in the heart * A balanced view of free will * Eternal attributes of God
@@filmyfun1 So GOD stopped intervening and opening the layers of understanding to his servants after your three Proxy generations? You are a Deist without even realising it.
Assalamu alaykum brother Paul. Thanks for the discussion and introduction to the Maturidi Theology which is hardly known to many. I wish my dear brothers and sisters were cautious when speaking/commenting about something that they have lack of knowledge, especially when it is about deen and aqeedah. Please, let's educate ourselves and then judge for ourselves. Please, let's have respect towards each other.
The Athari and Maturidi creeds represent two distinct schools of Islamic theology, differing in their approaches to understanding and interpreting Islamic belief. Below is a summary of their main differences: --- 1. Methodology in Theology Athari (Literalist/Traditionalist): Relies strictly on the Qur'an and Sunnah as sources of theology. Avoids speculative theology (kalam) and rational inquiry in explaining matters of belief. Prefers literal interpretations of texts regarding Allah's attributes unless a clear metaphorical meaning is provided by the Qur'an or Sunnah. Strongly adheres to the teachings of early scholars like Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal. Maturidi (Rational-Traditionalist): Combines reason and textual evidence to understand theological issues. Uses rational arguments to defend faith, especially against heresies or philosophical critiques. Leans towards metaphorical interpretations of some Qur'anic verses, especially regarding Allah's attributes, to avoid anthropomorphism (likening Allah to His creation). --- 2. Allah's Attributes Athari: Believes in affirming Allah's attributes (e.g., hand, face, etc.) as they are stated in the texts, without delving into "how" (bila kayf) or reinterpreting them. Emphasizes avoiding anthropomorphism while affirming the apparent meaning of the texts. Maturidi: Interprets some of Allah's attributes metaphorically to prevent any understanding that suggests similarity between Allah and His creation. Seeks to reconcile textual affirmations with rational principles, leaning on metaphor when necessary. --- 3. Role of Reason Athari: Views reason as secondary to revelation in theological matters. Cautions against over-reliance on rational methods, emphasizing faith in the unseen as described in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Maturidi: Places significant emphasis on the role of reason in understanding theology. Considers reason essential for certain aspects of belief, such as recognizing the existence of Allah even without revelation. --- 4. Faith (Iman) Athari: Defines faith as belief, speech, and action. Belief can increase or decrease based on deeds. Actions are considered an integral part of faith. Maturidi: Defines faith primarily as belief in the heart and affirmation with the tongue. Actions are seen as evidence of faith but not an essential part of its definition. Faith does not increase or decrease in its essence, though individuals may differ in their piety and adherence. --- 5. Free Will and Predestination Athari: Affirms divine predestination (qadr) in all aspects, including human actions, without delving deeply into how free will coexists with it. Prefers submission to the textual evidence over rational explanation of predestination. Maturidi: Balances between divine predestination and human free will. Argues that humans have a degree of choice within Allah's overarching decree. --- 6. Acceptance and Influence Athari: Predominantly followed by the Hanbali school of jurisprudence. Represents the creed of many contemporary Salafi movements. Maturidi: Followed predominantly by the Hanafi school of jurisprudence. Widely influential in the Ottoman Empire and Central Asia. --- In summary, the Athari creed is more textual and emphasizes submission to revealed texts without rational reinterpretation, while the Maturidi creed integrates reason and text, seeking a balance between rationality and traditional belief.
@@AbbaJifarTube yea, athari is the simplest, oldest, and safest without going into the mental gymnastics of philosophy. Athari was enough for all the sahabas.
Asy'ariyah and Maturidiyah is very popular in Indonesia and we follow Mazhab Syafi'i... And since childhood we get filsafat and ilmu mantiq course (logic)...
There's a difference between the salafiya (sunni's or athari's) and the Ash'ariah and maturidiyah, they use a different aqedah than the one we have, and they use logic to repel narrations, in relation to aqedah for example, they repel many authentic narrations on the grounds that they're Ahad (singulars, even though they're authentic by the standards of the two shiekhs bukhari and muslim). they innovated in islam, and our job is to educate them back into the straight path.
@@Baerock You yourself have many epistemologically unjustified assumptions about what you think you know, without even realising it. How would you "educate others"?
@@Baerock - the Salafiyyah Sect is neither athari (aka hambali) nor do they belong to ahlAsSunnah walJama'ah. It is a newly invented religion popularised by albani, binBaz, uthaymeen, fawzan and other najdi wahhabis.
Valuable discussion. I’d be interested to have expert traditional maturidi scholars speak and contrast with western educated Muslim professors. So we know the difference
They got nothing to di with ahlul sunnah theyre innovated sects that came after the sahabas time. Ahlul sunnah are the salaf and those that follow the sahaba only.
Athari, Ashaari, Maturidi are all Muslims and upon Sunnah. We all should never extreme towards one another. That is hard. Everywhere has its bad apples.
Taiymi wah.Happys are Anthropomorphic Idol worshipers, they are not Atharis(Hanbali Muffawidhs) nor on the Salaf creed. Ahl alsunnah are the Asha’aris, Maturidis, Hanbali Muffawidhs. The followers of the 4 madhabs in fiqh.
JazakAllaahu khairan. Who from the English speaking Asharis and Maturidis have put forth efforts in refuting atheists, postmodernists, etc. Any names, books, and references would be appreciated. BarakAllaahu feekum.
Salam. Have a read up on Shaykh Saeed Nursi (r) and his jamat. They’re of a maturidi tradition and did unprecedented work in the field of dawah to bring Muslims back to Islam and to address non-Muslims too. He was very much focussed on almost every topic the contemporary dawah scene is wrestling with. Another scholar worth investigating is Shaykh Mustafa Sabri Effendi (r), however, he was addressing western philosophies head on and his work wasn’t targeted on a popular level, but we see today how the dawah frontiers are having to engage with his work for Islamic responses to western ideologies and philosophies.
At last, most important topics that should discuss long time ago in this channel. As usual, pseudo or fake salafi / Athari dont like this discussion. We can see in comments section.
Ashari and Maturidi are older and fall closer to the 3 generations (if not within those generations) than Athari. You can try again, when you know how historical timelines work. Lol these guys... Astaghfirullah...
Maturidi's and Ash'ari's are not of ahl al sunnah for them to be compareable to the 4 imams, abu hasan al ash'ari himself repented of what he said after he read imam ahmad's works, and the maturidiya have a jahmi aqedah, just like the rawafidh, sufi's and many khawarij of today.
@@Baerock The majorty of scholars, and the Ummah indeed, is Ashari wa Maturidi. No amount of petro-dollars and nadji dawah will change that. The movement of ibn Abdul Wahab najdi came 1000 years later, and no, you have little do to with Imam Ahmed, RA. Imam Ahmed, and the real Hanbalis were not anthropormists, nor did they call the Ahl Sunna for deviant. They had many ppl of taswwuf amongst them.
Hi Paul i hope you will reply. How many books have you read in your life and how many years have you read and hos fast do you read because you seem to intellegent and you have a lot of knowledge what is your advice if you want to become a voracious reader
In my opinion, following kalam Allah and rasool Allah, and having a solid fiq (shafi'i, maliki, hanafi, hanbali) is enough. I'm not much aware about all these later innovations, Allahu a'lam.
@@Iraniansunnimuslim Theology is more important than law. Allah and his prophet came to teach us tawhid first and foremost, not law. Also, theology is not a later innovation. Maturidis are followers of Abu Hanifa.
@@dinomar7818 and we can clearly learn about tawhid from Quran and authentic collections from the same imams I mentioned. Not everything about the fiqs is laws, it also has hikmat and teachings.
@@Iraniansunnimuslim Imagine that I am an Atheist, how will you prove God exists? Imagine that I am a Christian, how will you prove to me that God is one? You need scholars who explain tawhid and defend the religion.
@@ArtiZetl you have to understand the meaning of salaf. Matrudi himself followed the salaf abu hanifa. Do not confuse it. Nasibiya is the word you are looking for.
@@sasasaa12234 he said salaf tho. That is very disrespectful to all the first generations. If he said wahabi, I would agree. He should realise that all sunnah is by salafs teachings.
imagine saying that the prophet's path isn't the most guided one, and that the other innovated paths are just as good. there is the religion of allah, and there is the one with innovations in it, our job is to repel the innovations, not absorb them, may allah open your eyes on these matters.
@@Baerock With such a desperate and hurried approach, how would you counter Trinitarians who are entitled to believe that Prophet Muhammad's Islam is an arian innovation and how would Trinitarians counter Torah-observant Jews who would say Trinitarianism is a Greek innovation? From a helicopter view, how would anyone counter anything in that matter? The thing is, you have to assume and be inclined towards so many things in order to justify what you already believe. That applies to everything, every "group think" Reflect about what I just said, so YOU may repel from your desperate and hurried approach. And GOD knows best.
@@jostnamane3951 The most efficient fastest way Athiesm is Salafism, I’m from the heartland of salafism and I saw it with my eyes, Thank Allah for The true creed of Ahl alsunnah which is Asha’ari/Maturidi
Assalamualaikum brothers and sisters After reading the comments section, I realized a lot of you do not know how much Maturidi aqeedah influences the ummah. I am someone from South Asia, where by far the largest number of Hanafi muslims are assumed to be living now. I can tell you for from my experience of 25 years, that you would be hard pressed to find even 1% of muslims who know about Ilm ul kalam, "Maturidi" the person or his aqeedah. Muslims just stick to what is written in the Quran and hadiths and follow some specific rules ( not all ) of Hanafi fiqh out of convenience. And there is an increasing number of non-madhab following muslims as well. Before you say " _% of muslims believe in the Maturidi Theology" ask yourself what belief even is, you can't believe someone or something you don't know about. Belief requires knowing what you are believing in, you can't believe in something you have no clue about. Just because you adhere to some ideas of a person , does not mean full submission to all of their ideas.
Nope, you can go 12 grades of formal schooling without knowing who was the compilers for the curriculum. Following a systemitized teaching doesn't require you to know the subtleties of the authorship. Although in Islam this should be encouraged to study all madhabs and adjacent ideologies, to make better, more educated members of the ummah. Otherwise we may all slide into the jaheeliya of particular groups that sold the last Khalifate out to the British and the French states.
@irbis_rosh Vast majority of muslims have no formal or systematic schooling for Maturidi aqeedah, let alone believing in its specific tenets about metaphysics and using those to do taweel of the Quran. Ilm ul Kalam is not mentioned in the Quran nor the hadiths, so layman muslims are naturally unaware of it. And no, not learning or believing in maturidi does not lead to traitorous behavior to the ummah 🙄. I would like to see any concrete evidence to support claims such as "30% of muslims are Maturidis" , mere hypotheticals are not proofs. It's not just about not knowing the authorship of maturidi aqeedah, the aqeedah is not something most hanafi layman are aware of , let alone believe in it.
@@self-help3796 - the vast majority of lay Muslims (educated or uneducated) TRUST & FOLLOW their local /regional Imams and famous scholars that they know - and the vast majority of these Scholars are Maturidis.
@@mikhan5191 That's such a silly argument. Vast majority of muslims never have any discussion or concern about what the specific aqeedah of their local imam is. You are redefining being a maturidi as someone who takes fiqh from an imam who happens to be a hanafi in fiqh rather than someone who believes in the theology of al Mansur al Maturidi. A layma binds his hand below his navel so he must believe in the metaphorical taweel of divine attributes. Desperation at its best.
@@self-help3796 - do you know what TRUST & FOLLOW means? Lay ppl mostly don't know what being Maturidi means but they will TRUST & FOLLOW their local/regional Imams explanation of Maturidi aqeeda.
Ibn Taymiyyah says: “Whoever turns away from the divine Shari’i Salafi way, then there’s no doubt he’ll be misguided and contradict.” The original arabic text: “فكل من أعرض عن الطريقة السلفية الشرعية الإلهية، فإنه لا بد أن يضل ويتناقض” درء التعارض
@@MohammedAlSharif2002you do realise that the 4 imams are the salafs? Ahlu-sunnah always followed the 4 imams. No need for someone centuries later to say the same only somehow outdated in comparison to the actual salafs. It's strange,
@@gaalkacyo1634 right, I can follow the sahabah without the need of tamiya, as all the sunnah before and after him did. He wasn't needed really, Allahu a'lam
32:03 Please do not mix philosophy and physics! If Stephen Hawking heard this, he'd be turning in his grave. Fortunately, he does not believe in the afterlife anyway. Einstein's contributions to quantum mechanics were essential, but his philosophical stance remained skeptical.
Sahih al-Bukhari 2652 - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then whose who follow the latter. ....Quran Surah AL fatihah 1.6 .17 Guide us to the straight path The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray....Iman Syafei said "The punishment for kalam (people who delve too deeply into philosophy to deviate from Islam) is to be beaten with palm fronds and paraded around the village while announcing "this is the answer to those who abandon the Qur'an and the Sunnah and become busy with the knowledge of kalam...surah al maidah 5.3 This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion...
Maturid is an old city in Samarkand in Uzbekistan. Imam al-Maturidi was from Maturid, and he was a Hanafi theologian. About 30% of Muslims follow Imam al-Maturidi and are called Maturidis.
Why do we need to follow any imams after the mazhabs and hadis imams? Many have reinvented Islam with their limited n overrated second hand knowledge not based on simple TRUTH. As far as God n Prophet Muhammad is concern we are only to follow the Quran and Sunnah n the best of era to follow is during Salaful Soleh ie to follow true Islam at the time what is taught during the Prophet, his 4 Caliphs only. So all imams who don’t follow are not following true Islam. Many nonsense came abt after that era unfortunately.
Dr. Mohamed Haj Yousef Ph.D. Quantum Physicist: Ibn Arabi's Cosmology and Time based on Quranic Ayats: youtube.com/@mohamedhajyousef?si=LNahdGyH9jbso1ee
All three schools of theology are valid, `ash’ari- Ma’tureedi - Athari… The Athari School is the school of the salaf and the other 2 are representative of the Salaf and the khalaf. Intellectually speaking it is the other 2 schools that are most relevant and most effective today especially in the west wherein theology has a distinct flavour and form
The risk of every literary explorer is to dive into a fringe rabbit hole where there are too many words and too little substance of real value giving off the illusion of sophistication while it is simply wasting your time and misguiding you from the practical real world opportunities to gain the favor of your Lord. Prioritize practical worship. Don't waste your life away with maturidi ashari self admiration or worshiping and dedicating your attention to our limited futile human minds above the overwhelming reality of The Allah Who Encompasses us With His Might and Knowledge. Trying to encompass Allah is a lost futile, absurd, hopeless, impassable, impractical, inaccessible, inconceivable, insurmountable, preposterous, unattainable, unimaginable, unreasonable, unthinkable, unworkable, useless cause.
not only the title has nothing controversial for any muslim whatsoever for the last 1400 years, except neo salafis that appeared 200 years ago..... but the audacity, the shamelessness to call for kufr, say the one having a pink headed girl as a profile picture...... the blindness is mindblowing
@@abdelhakyac7285 absolute lie, because the salafi aqeedah existed since the beginning of Islam and not since 300 after Hijra. Calling some of the beliefs of maturidiyya and ashairah kufr is absolutely true. Saying that I have a pink haired girl as a profile picture just underlines your lack of braincells.
So 1300 years of Islamic scholarship after sahaba’s generation doesn’t matter ? Following Madhab in fiqh and aqeedah is a must otherwise you’ll be a lost cause
@ madhabs that are based on Quraan and sunnah and the understanding of the the generation that is praised in quraan and sunnah that is a must. Aqeedah that is based on the philosophy of the greeks or whoever is a misguidance. Simple as that
GOD opens up the layers of understanding to a person (not a group of people, pay attention) according to their worldview, intentions and sincerity in approach. There's no such thing as "innovation" in that case. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, then Prophet Muhammad's Islam is an Arian innovation from the perspective of a Trinitarian Christian and Trinitarian Christianity is a Greek innovation from the perspective of a Torah-observant Jew. You could literally say that about anything just because it's easier to say and doesn't require going above the Zeenah (adornment or decorative speech) levels of understanding. So how can you be certain that YOU have the epistemologically justified true belief?
FEAR ALLAH. Were muslims and its OBLIGATORY on every muslim to follow the SAHABAS way ie the way of the salaf and Rasolullah sallalahu alayhi wa salam. O muslims stay away from any deviated sects that were innovated after their time like maturidi and their likes and follow the path of the salaf.
@@gaalkacyo1634 This is no different from the Christian tradition in regards to "God is so loved that he sent his only son [as a proxy] to further his plans for humanity" in your case the proxy(s) are the three favourite generations. GOD doesn't need to send a proxy [a son] or proxies [three generations of people limited by geography, worldview and other factors] to intervene and further his plans for humanity. GOD opens up the layers of understanding to a person (not a group of people) according to their worldview, intentions and sincerity in approach.
@@yernew642 That sounds desperate and whimsical. I "sought the truth" using a clear methodology and realised that GOD doesn't need a proxy (a son, as Christians believe to be the only intermediary to enter heaven) or proxies (supposed three "favourite generations" limited by geography, worldview, timeline and other factors) to communicate and explain things to humanity. GOD opens up the layers of understanding to a person (not a group of people) according to their intentions, worldview and sincerity.
@@jostnamane3951we must follow the metodology of sahaba in understanding the quran, and that is because their metodolgy is confirmed truth by Allah and Rasool, if we not following them, then the truth is subjective, and the truth will be different between person to another, and that is not rational, because there is only One truth.. thats why Allah chose specific metodology to avoid chaos in tafseer
@@yernew642 No, the truth is not subjective but GOD alone opens up the layers of understanding to a person according to their worldview, intentions and sincerity in approach. No person or a group of people can claim to be infallible. Methodology coming through proxies limited by geography, worldview and timeline cannot be from GOD. Exalted is GOD above needing proxies to deliver his message.
This is really a strange narrative of understanding Aqeedah and so different from the way the Salafus-soleh have understood it in the time of ArRasul saw. I get the feeling that Ramon is struggling to create the relevance of his interest. In the end, I am still confused and remain blissfully ignorant, Alhamdulillah. I would humbly advise, or at least I will stay away from this kind of innovation and overthinking.
Another amazing video. Brother Ramon is a well educated professor having contributed immensely to studies on Maturidi creed in the English speaking world
Old rat paul showing his colors now by promoting kuffr Maturidi and kuffr Ashari aqeedas
@@theCordobaProject Abu mansur al Maturidi is in jahannam for innovating his kuffr maturidi aqeeda
@@filmyfun1🤡🤡🤡
@@filmyfun1 - you've just guaranteed yourself a ticket to that place Insha’Allah.
@mikhan5191 inshallah allah will raise you with mini dajjal Abu mansur al Maturidi who innovated a kuffr aqeedah into islam after 300 years of islam
The fact that the vast majority of Muslim ummah - of Ahlu Sunna- are either As'hari and Maturidi for over 1000 years is evidence enough that the correct Islamic Aqeeda is encapsulated in these two interprtations.. These two ie Ash'ari and Maturidi were formulated independently by two great scholars who lived around same time, the former In Iraq, the latter in Central Asia. The two are almost totally similar and there are very few minor differences only. These two great theological madhabs preserved the correct Aqeeda of Islam. They tread the middle path between extreme literalism and extreme Ta'weel. Thanks Paul for introducing such intellectually stimulating discussions.
I started researching Al-Maturidi all thanks to Ramon Harvey!
Brainwashed you..
Anybody who is sincere with Allah's Deen will lead the Deen. Beautiful to see both of you and your understanding and devotion to knowledge. I haven't seen traditional preachers or scholars discussing such topics.
Assalomu alaykum brother Paul from Uzbekistan, from the homeland of imam Bukhari, Termidhi, Mouturudi. Imam Moturudi's theology is still being taught in our Madrasas. Come and visit these regions as well brother Paul.
wa alaikum assalam!
@@BloggingTheologyth-cam.com/video/9rTxCPEh_mY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=st7O9HCtT15O3IA8
@@BloggingTheologyDo not go to Jahannam with Abu mansur al Maturidi
Maturidi aqeeda has nothing to do with islam
@@filmyfun1Precisely
Br. Paul you are fighting with fire, bringing on Maturidis and Ash’aris based on where you are and who are usually surrounded by in the da’wah scene lol. May Allah continue to bless you and your family. Keep doing amazing work!
It would be better to introduce the teachings (Maturidi Theology) first rather than the teacher (Abu Mansur al-Maturidi). After Googleing here and there, I discovered some Maturidi Theology features:
* Closely aligned with the Hanafi school
* Compatibility of reason ('aql) with divine revelation (naql).
* Emphasizes the necessity of prophets to provide guidance
* Defines faith as belief in the heart
* A balanced view of free will
* Eternal attributes of God
No it's better to introduce the figure behind the idea first
*innovated a kuffr aqeedah after more than 300 years
@@filmyfun1 So GOD stopped intervening and opening the layers of understanding to his servants after your three Proxy generations? You are a Deist without even realising it.
@@filmyfun1imagine making takfeer on the majority of the Muslims today 😢 May Allah guide you and open your eyes beyond social media
@@Ilham.69 you don't need to imagine, just look for the wahabis
Assalamu alaykum brother Paul. Thanks for the discussion and introduction to the Maturidi Theology which is hardly known to many. I wish my dear brothers and sisters were cautious when speaking/commenting about something that they have lack of knowledge, especially when it is about deen and aqeedah. Please, let's educate ourselves and then judge for ourselves. Please, let's have respect towards each other.
wa alaikum assalam and thanks
The Athari and Maturidi creeds represent two distinct schools of Islamic theology, differing in their approaches to understanding and interpreting Islamic belief. Below is a summary of their main differences:
---
1. Methodology in Theology
Athari (Literalist/Traditionalist):
Relies strictly on the Qur'an and Sunnah as sources of theology.
Avoids speculative theology (kalam) and rational inquiry in explaining matters of belief.
Prefers literal interpretations of texts regarding Allah's attributes unless a clear metaphorical meaning is provided by the Qur'an or Sunnah.
Strongly adheres to the teachings of early scholars like Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal.
Maturidi (Rational-Traditionalist):
Combines reason and textual evidence to understand theological issues.
Uses rational arguments to defend faith, especially against heresies or philosophical critiques.
Leans towards metaphorical interpretations of some Qur'anic verses, especially regarding Allah's attributes, to avoid anthropomorphism (likening Allah to His creation).
---
2. Allah's Attributes
Athari:
Believes in affirming Allah's attributes (e.g., hand, face, etc.) as they are stated in the texts, without delving into "how" (bila kayf) or reinterpreting them.
Emphasizes avoiding anthropomorphism while affirming the apparent meaning of the texts.
Maturidi:
Interprets some of Allah's attributes metaphorically to prevent any understanding that suggests similarity between Allah and His creation.
Seeks to reconcile textual affirmations with rational principles, leaning on metaphor when necessary.
---
3. Role of Reason
Athari:
Views reason as secondary to revelation in theological matters.
Cautions against over-reliance on rational methods, emphasizing faith in the unseen as described in the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Maturidi:
Places significant emphasis on the role of reason in understanding theology.
Considers reason essential for certain aspects of belief, such as recognizing the existence of Allah even without revelation.
---
4. Faith (Iman)
Athari:
Defines faith as belief, speech, and action.
Belief can increase or decrease based on deeds.
Actions are considered an integral part of faith.
Maturidi:
Defines faith primarily as belief in the heart and affirmation with the tongue.
Actions are seen as evidence of faith but not an essential part of its definition.
Faith does not increase or decrease in its essence, though individuals may differ in their piety and adherence.
---
5. Free Will and Predestination
Athari:
Affirms divine predestination (qadr) in all aspects, including human actions, without delving deeply into how free will coexists with it.
Prefers submission to the textual evidence over rational explanation of predestination.
Maturidi:
Balances between divine predestination and human free will.
Argues that humans have a degree of choice within Allah's overarching decree.
---
6. Acceptance and Influence
Athari:
Predominantly followed by the Hanbali school of jurisprudence.
Represents the creed of many contemporary Salafi movements.
Maturidi:
Followed predominantly by the Hanafi school of jurisprudence.
Widely influential in the Ottoman Empire and Central Asia.
---
In summary, the Athari creed is more textual and emphasizes submission to revealed texts without rational reinterpretation, while the Maturidi creed integrates reason and text, seeking a balance between rationality and traditional belief.
Where did you get the Infos from?
I think athari is better bcz Islam itself is submission to unseen
@@AbbaJifarTube yea, athari is the simplest, oldest, and safest without going into the mental gymnastics of philosophy. Athari was enough for all the sahabas.
@@TareqKhan0 you literally just got all of this info from ChatGPT 🤣🤣🤦
@@T.T.T416 Yes its ChatGPT, but as a basic intro, it is kinda OK.
Asy'ariyah and Maturidiyah is very popular in Indonesia and we follow Mazhab Syafi'i... And since childhood we get filsafat and ilmu mantiq course (logic)...
Yes true... Santri pasti tau siapa beliau🤭 Salam dr Jogja bro🇮🇩
There's a difference between the salafiya (sunni's or athari's) and the Ash'ariah and maturidiyah, they use a different aqedah than the one we have, and they use logic to repel narrations, in relation to aqedah for example, they repel many authentic narrations on the grounds that they're Ahad (singulars, even though they're authentic by the standards of the two shiekhs bukhari and muslim). they innovated in islam, and our job is to educate them back into the straight path.
@@Baerock You yourself have many epistemologically unjustified assumptions about what you think you know, without even realising it. How would you "educate others"?
@@Baerock - the Salafiyyah Sect is neither athari (aka hambali) nor do they belong to ahlAsSunnah walJama'ah. It is a newly invented religion popularised by albani, binBaz, uthaymeen, fawzan and other najdi wahhabis.
@@jostnamane3951 logic from Mumbai
Assalamu aleykum from Samarkand, from Motrud from the land Abu Mansur Moturudi.
wa alaikum assalam
Valuable discussion. I’d be interested to have expert traditional maturidi scholars speak and contrast with western educated Muslim professors. So we know the difference
Ash'arism and Maturidism are the two wings of Ahl al-Sunna wal-Jama'a :)
Nah
@@MohammedAlSharif2002 You do not know Ahl al-Sunna.
@@MohammedAlSharif2002 your ancestor is british spy lawrence saudi arabi follow abdulwahhab sect :))
😂😂😂
They got nothing to di with ahlul sunnah theyre innovated sects that came after the sahabas time. Ahlul sunnah are the salaf and those that follow the sahaba only.
Amazing video, really clarifies alot for me.
Athari, Ashaari, Maturidi are all Muslims and upon Sunnah. We all should never extreme towards one another. That is hard. Everywhere has its bad apples.
Athari is a salafi sunni, Ash'ari's and maturidi's are innovators. muslims, but innovators, don't let go of the most important thing on earth.
Taiymi wah.Happys are Anthropomorphic Idol worshipers, they are not Atharis(Hanbali Muffawidhs) nor on the Salaf creed.
Ahl alsunnah are the Asha’aris, Maturidis, Hanbali Muffawidhs.
The followers of the 4 madhabs in fiqh.
JazakAllaahu khairan. Who from the English speaking Asharis and Maturidis have put forth efforts in refuting atheists, postmodernists, etc. Any names, books, and references would be appreciated. BarakAllaahu feekum.
Salam. Have a read up on Shaykh Saeed Nursi (r) and his jamat. They’re of a maturidi tradition and did unprecedented work in the field of dawah to bring Muslims back to Islam and to address non-Muslims too. He was very much focussed on almost every topic the contemporary dawah scene is wrestling with.
Another scholar worth investigating is Shaykh Mustafa Sabri Effendi (r), however, he was addressing western philosophies head on and his work wasn’t targeted on a popular level, but we see today how the dawah frontiers are having to engage with his work for Islamic responses to western ideologies and philosophies.
Can we please get timestamps/chapters for the videos 😄🙏
Love from Egypt.
At last, most important topics that should discuss long time ago in this channel. As usual, pseudo or fake salafi / Athari dont like this discussion. We can see in comments section.
The Athariah ,Maturidiyah and Ashairah are all part of Ahlus Sunnah
No
Maturidi n ashairsh are innovated theology
Well said, those who think otherwise aren't learned.
Imam Safarini said the same, the ahlus sunnah are three groups.
Ashari and Maturidi are older and fall closer to the 3 generations (if not within those generations) than Athari. You can try again, when you know how historical timelines work. Lol these guys... Astaghfirullah...
@@irbis_roshسلفهم الدارمي اللعين.
MashaAllah. Maturidi / Ashari and the 4 madhabs are Ahlus Sunnah.
Asharis and Maturidis are kuffrs
Maturidi's and Ash'ari's are not of ahl al sunnah for them to be compareable to the 4 imams, abu hasan al ash'ari himself repented of what he said after he read imam ahmad's works, and the maturidiya have a jahmi aqedah, just like the rawafidh, sufi's and many khawarij of today.
@@Baerock The majorty of scholars, and the Ummah indeed, is Ashari wa Maturidi. No amount of petro-dollars and nadji dawah will change that. The movement of ibn Abdul Wahab najdi came 1000 years later, and no, you have little do to with Imam Ahmed, RA. Imam Ahmed, and the real Hanbalis were not anthropormists, nor did they call the Ahl Sunna for deviant. They had many ppl of taswwuf amongst them.
Hi Paul i hope you will reply. How many books have you read in your life and how many years have you read and hos fast do you read because you seem to intellegent and you have a lot of knowledge what is your advice if you want to become a voracious reader
Ramon Harvey is quite good 🎉
I love imam almaturidi and imam an Naqsabandiyah❤
Maturidi is a kuffr aqeedah
@@MOESLEM-z4l but today, naqshibandis are very innovative in deen.
Naqsabandi the King of Innovation
In my opinion, following kalam Allah and rasool Allah, and having a solid fiq (shafi'i, maliki, hanafi, hanbali) is enough.
I'm not much aware about all these later innovations, Allahu a'lam.
@@Iraniansunnimuslim Theology is more important than law. Allah and his prophet came to teach us tawhid first and foremost, not law. Also, theology is not a later innovation. Maturidis are followers of Abu Hanifa.
@@dinomar7818 and we can clearly learn about tawhid from Quran and authentic collections from the same imams I mentioned.
Not everything about the fiqs is laws, it also has hikmat and teachings.
@@Iraniansunnimuslim Imagine that I am an Atheist, how will you prove God exists? Imagine that I am a Christian, how will you prove to me that God is one? You need scholars who explain tawhid and defend the religion.
@@dinomar7818 by presenting Quran and authentic collections from the same imams I mentioned.
And Abu hanifa rahmatullah is free from from maturidism
Any thing that isn’t salafi (especially the madkhali branch) is a net positive for everyone
@@ArtiZetl you have to understand the meaning of salaf.
Matrudi himself followed the salaf abu hanifa.
Do not confuse it. Nasibiya is the word you are looking for.
Stop being so venemous
Abu Mansur was a deviant, shaytan in human form
@@Iraniansunnimuslimhe means Wahhabi najdis not the real salaf
@@sasasaa12234 he said salaf tho.
That is very disrespectful to all the first generations.
If he said wahabi, I would agree.
He should realise that all sunnah is by salafs teachings.
Thank you but I felt the question was not satisfactorily answered as to why Maturidy is relevant today, and how today is defined?
All the three paths appeal to different minds no path is better than the other all lead to الله سبحانه وتعالى
imagine saying that the prophet's path isn't the most guided one, and that the other innovated paths are just as good. there is the religion of allah, and there is the one with innovations in it, our job is to repel the innovations, not absorb them, may allah open your eyes on these matters.
@@Baerock With such a desperate and hurried approach, how would you counter Trinitarians who are entitled to believe that Prophet Muhammad's Islam is an arian innovation and how would Trinitarians counter Torah-observant Jews who would say Trinitarianism is a Greek innovation? From a helicopter view, how would anyone counter anything in that matter? The thing is, you have to assume and be inclined towards so many things in order to justify what you already believe. That applies to everything, every "group think" Reflect about what I just said, so YOU may repel from your desperate and hurried approach. And GOD knows best.
@@BaerockSimple and straightforward brother. جزاك الله خيراً
@@jostnamane3951
The most efficient fastest way Athiesm is Salafism, I’m from the heartland of salafism and I saw it with my eyes, Thank Allah for The true creed of Ahl alsunnah which is Asha’ari/Maturidi
This discussion reflects how it must have been living in the early centuries of Islamic scientific advent
@46.00 How is Allah is al-Ahad compatible with differentiation in the divine nature
You’re saying how Allah is one when having uncreated sifat?
How can things have natures if one believes in occasionalism?
Most indonesian muslims are ashari maturidi ❤
Assalamualaikum brothers and sisters
After reading the comments section, I realized a lot of you do not know how much Maturidi aqeedah influences the ummah. I am someone from South Asia, where by far the largest number of Hanafi muslims are assumed to be living now. I can tell you for from my experience of 25 years, that you would be hard pressed to find even 1% of muslims who know about Ilm ul kalam, "Maturidi" the person or his aqeedah. Muslims just stick to what is written in the Quran and hadiths and follow some specific rules ( not all ) of Hanafi fiqh out of convenience. And there is an increasing number of non-madhab following muslims as well.
Before you say " _% of muslims believe in the Maturidi Theology" ask yourself what belief even is, you can't believe someone or something you don't know about. Belief requires knowing what you are believing in, you can't believe in something you have no clue about. Just because you adhere to some ideas of a person , does not mean full submission to all of their ideas.
Nope, you can go 12 grades of formal schooling without knowing who was the compilers for the curriculum. Following a systemitized teaching doesn't require you to know the subtleties of the authorship. Although in Islam this should be encouraged to study all madhabs and adjacent ideologies, to make better, more educated members of the ummah. Otherwise we may all slide into the jaheeliya of particular groups that sold the last Khalifate out to the British and the French states.
@irbis_rosh Vast majority of muslims have no formal or systematic schooling for Maturidi aqeedah, let alone believing in its specific tenets about metaphysics and using those to do taweel of the Quran. Ilm ul Kalam is not mentioned in the Quran nor the hadiths, so layman muslims are naturally unaware of it. And no, not learning or believing in maturidi does not lead to traitorous behavior to the ummah 🙄. I would like to see any concrete evidence to support claims such as "30% of muslims are Maturidis" , mere hypotheticals are not proofs. It's not just about not knowing the authorship of maturidi aqeedah, the aqeedah is not something most hanafi layman are aware of , let alone believe in it.
@@self-help3796 - the vast majority of lay Muslims (educated or uneducated) TRUST & FOLLOW their local /regional Imams and famous scholars that they know - and the vast majority of these Scholars are Maturidis.
@@mikhan5191 That's such a silly argument. Vast majority of muslims never have any discussion or concern about what the specific aqeedah of their local imam is. You are redefining being a maturidi as someone who takes fiqh from an imam who happens to be a hanafi in fiqh rather than someone who believes in the theology of al Mansur al Maturidi. A layma binds his hand below his navel so he must believe in the metaphorical taweel of divine attributes. Desperation at its best.
@@self-help3796 - do you know what TRUST & FOLLOW means?
Lay ppl mostly don't know what being Maturidi means but they will TRUST & FOLLOW their local/regional Imams explanation of Maturidi aqeeda.
As a layman, it is hard to diffentiate between scienctific and technological advances. The later is just a material application of spiritual science
Hope you will reply Paul Williams
Maturidies asking the dead instead of Allah. How relevant is it today? What are you spreading Dr Ramon?
So Maturidi Theology is Relevant today?
If so, it bear question, what theology was most relevant at the time of the Prophet Muhammad SAW?
Athari theology. The creed of the Salaf.
@Iliannnn are they different?
@@SusiloAdi Yes. Very different. Maturidi theology rejects the attributes of Allah
This is going to blow many Salafi fuses.....
Aqeeda Ahlusunnah wal Jama'ah is Ash'ariyya and Maturidiyya. There is no such thing Athariyya terms popularize by Orientalist and Wahhabist
Only hear this in English discussion. These Wahabis spreading there propoganda are everywhere
Way above my pay scale
..can someone please put it in simple tearms
الماتريديون وأهل الحديث والأشعرية هم أهل السنة والجماعة مذهبهم العقدي واحد ولكن باختلاف قليل ولهم مذاهب فقهية أربعة
Ibn Taymiyyah says: “Whoever turns away from the divine Shari’i Salafi way, then there’s no doubt he’ll be misguided and contradict.”
The original arabic text:
“فكل من أعرض عن الطريقة السلفية الشرعية الإلهية، فإنه لا بد أن يضل ويتناقض”
درء التعارض
Ibn tamiya is not mandatory to follow you know?
He came many years later, saying he presented sahabah
@ yes you’re not required to follow him because he didn’t invent anything new. His call was a revival of the methodology of the Salaf.
Followinh sahaba is obligatory and ibn taymiyah followed the sahaba@@Iraniansunnimuslim
@@MohammedAlSharif2002you do realise that the 4 imams are the salafs?
Ahlu-sunnah always followed the 4 imams. No need for someone centuries later to say the same only somehow outdated in comparison to the actual salafs.
It's strange,
@@gaalkacyo1634 right, I can follow the sahabah without the need of tamiya, as all the sunnah before and after him did.
He wasn't needed really, Allahu a'lam
Only Athari/ Ahlul Hadith (Quran Sunnah Salafiyyah) Aqidah is relevant for all the times
😂
32:03 Please do not mix philosophy and physics! If Stephen Hawking heard this, he'd be turning in his grave. Fortunately, he does not believe in the afterlife anyway. Einstein's contributions to quantum mechanics were essential, but his philosophical stance remained skeptical.
Maturidi is ahl assouna wel djamaa also like achaari
Sahih al-Bukhari 2652 - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم) Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "The people of my generation are the best, then those who follow them, and then whose who follow the latter. ....Quran Surah AL fatihah 1.6 .17 Guide us to the straight path The path of those upon whom You have bestowed favor, not of those who have evoked [Your] anger or of those who are astray....Iman Syafei said "The punishment for kalam (people who delve too deeply into philosophy to deviate from Islam) is to be beaten with palm fronds and paraded around the village while announcing "this is the answer to those who abandon the Qur'an and the Sunnah and become busy with the knowledge of kalam...surah al maidah 5.3 This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion...
at 30 min mark, it appears that Husserl's phenomenology is pure kufr.
What is matrudi?
Maturid is an old city in Samarkand in Uzbekistan. Imam al-Maturidi was from Maturid, and he was a Hanafi theologian. About 30% of Muslims follow Imam al-Maturidi and are called Maturidis.
@@dinomar7818what is the laws? And rules? What is the reason behind such?
The majority of Muslims are Maturidi.
There are two schools of theology which are generally regarded as representative of mainstream Sunni Islam: the Ash’ari and Maturidi school.
@@Iraniansunnimuslim What do you mean?
Why do we need to follow any imams after the mazhabs and hadis imams? Many have reinvented Islam with their limited n overrated second hand knowledge not based on simple TRUTH. As far as God n Prophet Muhammad is concern we are only to follow the Quran and Sunnah n the best of era to follow is during Salaful Soleh ie to follow true Islam at the time what is taught during the Prophet, his 4 Caliphs only. So all imams who don’t follow are not following true Islam. Many nonsense came abt after that era unfortunately.
Dr. Mohamed Haj Yousef Ph.D. Quantum Physicist: Ibn Arabi's Cosmology and Time based on Quranic Ayats:
youtube.com/@mohamedhajyousef?si=LNahdGyH9jbso1ee
😲
All three schools of theology are valid, `ash’ari- Ma’tureedi - Athari… The Athari School is the school of the salaf and the other 2 are representative of the Salaf and the khalaf.
Intellectually speaking it is the other 2 schools that are most relevant and most effective today especially in the west wherein theology has a distinct flavour and form
The risk of every literary explorer is to dive into a fringe rabbit hole where there are too many words and too little substance of real value giving off the illusion of sophistication while it is simply wasting your time and misguiding you from the practical real world opportunities to gain the favor of your Lord. Prioritize practical worship. Don't waste your life away with maturidi ashari self admiration or worshiping and dedicating your attention to our limited futile human minds above the overwhelming reality of The Allah Who Encompasses us With His Might and Knowledge. Trying to encompass Allah is a lost futile, absurd, hopeless, impassable, impractical, inaccessible, inconceivable, insurmountable, preposterous, unattainable, unimaginable, unreasonable, unthinkable, unworkable, useless cause.
The title is a bit controversial. How would there be any need for bidah or even kufr ? Haven‘t watched the video yet btw.
not only the title has nothing controversial for any muslim whatsoever for the last 1400 years, except neo salafis that appeared 200 years ago..... but the audacity, the shamelessness to call for kufr, say the one having a pink headed girl as a profile picture...... the blindness is mindblowing
Only controversial to you and the likes of you. For the rest of the ummah, nothing controversial here
@@abdelhakyac7285 absolute lie, because the salafi aqeedah existed since the beginning of Islam and not since 300 after Hijra. Calling some of the beliefs of maturidiyya and ashairah kufr is absolutely true. Saying that I have a pink haired girl as a profile picture just underlines your lack of braincells.
@@theCordobaProject „for the rest of the ummah“ 🤣
Your guys left the right path, how sad
Why there are so many Sunni schools
@@Iamfsaly as if shias don't have many factions.
@ I’m not a Shia
@@Iamfsaly I didn't said you were.
Watch the video you'll understand
We don't know anything about Al-Maaturiidi, he's Majhuul, we don't know who he was and chances are he didn't exist.
No comment.
No reply.
What wasn’t part of islam during the prophet and sahaba’s lives’ will not be part of it now. Thanks but no thanks!
So 1300 years of Islamic scholarship after sahaba’s generation doesn’t matter ? Following Madhab in fiqh and aqeedah is a must otherwise you’ll be a lost cause
@ madhabs that are based on Quraan and sunnah and the understanding of the the generation that is praised in quraan and sunnah that is a must. Aqeedah that is based on the philosophy of the greeks or whoever is a misguidance. Simple as that
@@mohammed-sp2gj So why are you using a device to say that? Stop using it as well!
@@jostnamane3951 what an amazing argument you seem really really smart man.
@@mohammed-sp2gj Yet that "argument" does seem to follow.
I like this channel but pls don't promote innovated maturidi theology. 👎🏻👎🏻👎🏻
Stop using youtube its bidah
@@unknownperson4063 pls knw the definition first. Bid'ah is for innovation in the Deen. 🤦🏻
GOD opens up the layers of understanding to a person (not a group of people, pay attention) according to their worldview, intentions and sincerity in approach. There's no such thing as "innovation" in that case. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, then Prophet Muhammad's Islam is an Arian innovation from the perspective of a Trinitarian Christian and Trinitarian Christianity is a Greek innovation from the perspective of a Torah-observant Jew. You could literally say that about anything just because it's easier to say and doesn't require going above the Zeenah (adornment or decorative speech) levels of understanding. So how can you be certain that YOU have the epistemologically justified true belief?
@@jostnamane3951 what flawed argument. Your understanding is not based on Quran and Sunnah.
@@fxorigins6624 Then enlighten me with your insights. I'm open.
FEAR ALLAH. Were muslims and its OBLIGATORY on every muslim to follow the SAHABAS way ie the way of the salaf and Rasolullah sallalahu alayhi wa salam. O muslims stay away from any deviated sects that were innovated after their time like maturidi and their likes and follow the path of the salaf.
@@gaalkacyo1634 do you even know what salaf is? Do you know what you are promoting?
First generations @@Iraniansunnimuslim
@@issaalfaransi5263 which includes?
You’re a Wahhabi
@@gaalkacyo1634 This is no different from the Christian tradition in regards to "God is so loved that he sent his only son [as a proxy] to further his plans for humanity" in your case the proxy(s) are the three favourite generations. GOD doesn't need to send a proxy [a son] or proxies [three generations of people limited by geography, worldview and other factors] to intervene and further his plans for humanity.
GOD opens up the layers of understanding to a person (not a group of people) according to their worldview, intentions and sincerity in approach.
maturidi deviance*
How ironic
Don't jump to conclusions, you have not watched the entire video
before you reply, just know that i know where your coming from and what you mean
Unsubscribed
Lol
🤣
Unsubscribed for promoting kuffr Maturidi beliefs
😂. they are not kuffars
u may have some issues to raise. but calling maturidi kafir says a lot about ur status.
Ahlul bid’ah aren’t kuffar
@@filmyfun1 not every bidai is kùfr.
Misguidance isnt kufr ya goof
We have the Noble Quran and sunnah we dont need matrudi etc
Asharism and maturidism are two sects
@@issaalfaransi5263 of what?
Sad to see you promote this misguidance
Salafiyah ... !
The comments are really sad. But fret not of tribalism, let's be seekers of truth 🤝❤️🩹
if u really seek the truth, u will follow the aqeedah of sahaba
@@yernew642 That sounds desperate and whimsical. I "sought the truth" using a clear methodology and realised that GOD doesn't need a proxy (a son, as Christians believe to be the only intermediary to enter heaven) or proxies (supposed three "favourite generations" limited by geography, worldview, timeline and other factors) to communicate and explain things to humanity. GOD opens up the layers of understanding to a person (not a group of people) according to their intentions, worldview and sincerity.
@@jostnamane3951we must follow the metodology of sahaba in understanding the quran, and that is because their metodolgy is confirmed truth by Allah and Rasool, if we not following them, then the truth is subjective, and the truth will be different between person to another, and that is not rational, because there is only One truth.. thats why Allah chose specific metodology to avoid chaos in tafseer
@@yernew642 No, the truth is not subjective but GOD alone opens up the layers of understanding to a person according to their worldview, intentions and sincerity in approach. No person or a group of people can claim to be infallible. Methodology coming through proxies limited by geography, worldview and timeline cannot be from GOD. Exalted is GOD above needing proxies to deliver his message.
@@jostnamane3951 U just prove my point, subjective
This is really a strange narrative of understanding Aqeedah and so different from the way the Salafus-soleh have understood it in the time of ArRasul saw. I get the feeling that Ramon is struggling to create the relevance of his interest. In the end, I am still confused and remain blissfully ignorant, Alhamdulillah. I would humbly advise, or at least I will stay away from this kind of innovation and overthinking.
Your Wrong.
Jesus is always relevant!
Others will come and go, just like you.
Yes, all prophets are relevant.
Peace be upon them.
Real Christian’s imitate jesus, preaching to Jews not supplying WMD on tap
@@georges7218 ok.
We are content with our Lord being one ☝🏽, and Muhammad as our final prophet ﷺ. Goodbye George 👋🏽