Is Boeing Switching to SIDE-STICKS?!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2024
- Head over to nordvpn.com/me... for an Exclusive deal on an Awesome VPN and start protecting yourself today!
Will Boeing switch over from Yokes to side-sticks on its coming new aircraft design? In todays video I will go through the pro’s and con’s of side-sticks as well as the new inventions that might tip the scale.
If you want to support the work I do on the channel, join my Patreon crew and get awesome perks and help me move the channel forward! 👇
👉🏻 / mentourpilot
👉🏻 Check out our other channel here: / mentournow
Get the Mentour Aviation app and discuss what You think about this! Download the app for FREE using the link below 👇
📲
📲 Join the Mentour Pilot Discord server here! 👉🏻 / discord
I have also created an Amazon page with Aviation books, material and flight simulator stuff that I think you will enjoy!
👉🏻 www.amazon.com...
Follow my life on instagram and get awesome pictures from the cockpit!
📲 / mentour_pilot
To find the right HEADSET for YOU, check out BOSE Aviation 👉🏻 boseaviation-e...
Artwork in the studio 👉🏻 aeroprints.de/...
Get some Awesome Mentour Pilot merch 👉🏻 mentour-crew.c...
Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode. Enjoy checking them out!
Videos:
• Airbus Upgrade Service...
• Synthetic Vision System
• The inside view of inn...
• A320 Celebrating 30 ye...
• A320 Saga Episode 2: F...
• Building the 777
• Boeing 777X Flight Dec...
• In the Making: First #...
• #A350 XWB - New Touch ...
• Gulfstream's Next-Gene...
• Active sidesticks - a ...
• An Inside Look at Boei...
Articles
bea.aero/filea...
www.businessin...
www.reuters.co...
aviation.stack...
www.wingborn.c...
www.baesystems...
simpleflying.c...
Head over to nordvpn.com/mentournow for an exclusive deal.
No.
@@737Garrus Yeah No.
_proper_ yokes, eh? 😉
Hey Montour, I have a question about touch sensitive MFDs.
So you consider them a step up or down from physical controls.
Because they have no touch/shape feedback like a physical control, you must take your eyes off of whatever you're looking at to look at the touch screen.
I don't like this in cars, I have to take my eyes off of the road.
This seems multiplied in a passenger aircraft, as you have 100s of passengers to protect!
I'd definitely like to see a video like this on passenger aircraft touch screens.
Airlines that have switched from Boeing to AirBus did so knowing about the change from yoke to sidestick, I don’t believe the airlines themselves will have an issue with this.
I have around 8,000 hrs of sidestick experience, and 12,000+ of yoke. I really don't care which I use, the view outside is the same, and they both pay the mortgage.
However, when flying with other guys that have Airbus experience on the Dreamliner, we all agree that we miss, not so much the sidestick per-se - but the ability to have a table in front of us - it makes dining far easier!
Got to get those priorities sorted! 😄
Priorities have to go first 🙂
Awesome insight.. I would love to try flying side stick myself.
Thanks for that input. I'm not a pilot but I have to think that freed up space for using as a table along with having displays/controls, or whatever in that middle area that didn't exist before would be the biggest advantage and the actual flying using either control wouldn't be so much the issue.
@@MentourNow I dream of having hands 🙌 to catch some fish sticks. Good to have perspective 😉
@@MentourNow believe me, it’s not really that different. I flew Fokker 100 which is yoke and 320/330 sidestick. You have to get used to the control laws. The handling on airbus is worse. The plane does some kind of Dutch roll at low speeds so you find your self in pio a lot of time fighting its own corrections. And in the 321 neo specially the Lr pitch authority on the flare is bad. If you take engines to idle to soon it is quite un predictable what authority you have because that depends a lot on the trim position at 100 feet that freezes, only to find out a sharp nose up tendency when spoilers extend. Different from the CEO’s that would put pitch down at a given rate below 50 feet to force you to flare, and was better tuned for spoiler extension. The roll however has more feeling to it in the neo. Better and faster response.
Nordic pronunciation of 'j' is so strange. A joke comes to mind. - What is this for year gap in your resume? - Oh that's when I went to yale. - Yale? That's great, you're hired. - Thanks, I really needed this yob.
Hahaha!
That took a minute to sink in, luckily, I didn't need to do 4 years.
Almost all languages in the Germanic family-except for English-pronounce the letter "j" with the English "y" sound. English is the outlier here, not Norwegian.
Cheers,
Alan Tomlinson
@@diegorhoenisch62
Swedish, actually. His accent to those from the Nordics is unmistakably Swedish.
But yes, the English language is an outlier here compared to other Germanic languages - could be the influence from French I suppose.
Is that a yoke joke?
Hi mentor. I felt that it was about time to express my gratitude. Thank you so much for taking the time to give detailed narrations of events during your videos on the main channel. Your storytelling is incredible. I'm fully blind and have nothing to do with aviation (as expected haha). Your explanation of the details allow me to paint a picture of the events in my head without needing to see the animations.
Please never stop what you do. Thanks again ✈️
yay Petter
As an Airbus pilot, I do understand that feel or preference is subjective, but let’s all agree, nothing beats the Airbus table lol.. makes life so much easier in everything that you want to do in life. As for me, I personally love the side stick. With few thousand hours on the Airbus, I felt the aircraft and understood how it behaved reacting to the wind conditions. COVID happened still unemployed for over 2 years and a half now and I think I need to relearn how to fly.
I personally prefer the sidetick over the classic yoke, I find it more comfortable being able to use one hand and have everything in hand… other people I know prefer Boeing because it’s more manual and it really tests your flying abilities. I like Airbus because they make understandable aircraft and everything is placed in a coherent manner. Boeings layout, you need to know it very well.
uhg.
Lost me at CONvid.
@abdulla are you able to switch from left hand to right hand and vice versa easily? I’ve always imagined it would be difficult to learn the muscle memory in 2 distinct hands, but I’m just an enthusiast not a pilot😂
@@tobin_nathan been told by guys who gone through the command upgrades transferring from the right to the left seat that within the second or third simulator session they got used to the left seat. So by the time they're in the line training they're very much used to it by then.
@@yukonstriker1703 I'm gonna take a guess and say you haven't lost anyone in the pandemic, have you?
To all those commenting that it must be hard to switch from using left hand to right hand to control the side stick. Firstly Petter mentioned in a video a while back that pilots can't swap seats as they feel like it.
But more specifically, think of the number of right handed people, who drive cars with the driver's seat on the right, (UK and most countries in the SE Asia), and have no problem using a manual gear lever with their left hand.
Correct, it’s not really an issue at all
I'm not a pilot but if I tried to ride a motorcycle with opposite controls I'd be in trouble. I'd also probably be more prone to mistakes during a crisis situation.
I can write with my non dominant hand but it lacks refinement, I'd expect something similar with using a stick between the two hands.
The steering wheel still remains the main directional control input, however. The car does not have a steering side stick, and gear shifting requires far less finesse. Yokes are more ambidextrous. I'd wonder why not a switchable side stick, however. If the pilot using it wants it on their left or right, they could have it there regardless of where they are sitting, with the other one stowed down on the floor.
No matter a side stick or yoke, the same hand will be used to control it. The other hand is needed to control the throttle.
@@MentourNow I wonder why the aircraft designers didn't put the joystick (Jeremy Murphy below) on the same side for both seats? I don't think they swap the collective and cyclic for dual pilot helicopters!
"Don't call it a joystick because certain pilots get upset..."
That settles it...it's a joystick.
😂😂😂
It means pilots are gamers who play with the aircraft
🤯 How dare yoouuu!!!
Ha! I came here to make this comment. You beat me to it. Yuppers, joystick it is. 😆
It's like how captains of larger ships hate when you call it a boat. "Nice boat you have there, Captain"
I'm a retired airline pilot and flew the 727 and A320. I'd say sidestick is the way to go for future fly-by-wire aircraft and yes, active sidestick should be the standard design.
Yes. I agree
I've always imagined that sidesticks would be much nicer to use than yokes, but I never really thought about advantages of the yoke, like having that mechanical link to better understand what the other pilot is doing. Very informative video as always!
Imagine they put the sidesticks next to each other and mechanically link them to each other. Rather than a left hand sidestick for left seat and right hand sidestick for left seat, reverse it so that both sticks are right near each other and can easily have a mechanical link that is strong and simple
Not having side stick be linked is a design choice. There is no technical reason why it can be done. Stick equipped GA planes like the SR22 are linked for example.
what if they pute side sticks in Cars.
@@Perich29 Saab made someting back in the day.
The mechanical link isn't always an advantage. Without the link you can have a priority button (such as Airbus has) which lets you disconnect the other control, which can be useful when the other pilot is for whatever reason (loss of situational awareness, perhaps) giving control inputs that you don't want.
As long as the side stick has the ability to provide force feedback to both devices at the same time to avoid conflicting inputs, I think the side stick is a good thing.
I would tend to agree with you
When the F-16 was developed, the original side stick didn't move at all.
Mentor Pilot has covered a number Airbus incidents where active feedback may have prevented an incident, so I feel it should be added.
I would imagine that even for mechanically linked yokes, there is the possibility of a much stronger pilot being able to force the yoke "in the wrong" position and the other pilot not being able to over-ride it, the AF B-777 incident mentioned by MP has come up a number of times, and sounds like the Boeing FBW also does what Airbus FBW does when pilots give conflicting commands, average out what they are commanding. I think there has been an incident where a pilot has collapsed on the yoke.
So maybe it's not a case of "linking" the side-sticks, rather than changing the FBW computer to decide which pilot is supposed to be be flying the plane, and which one is panicking.
@@axelBr1 Given their history I would be inclined to look at AFs training before I blamed the Triple Seven.
@@MentourNow - As Alex Bristor says, it cuts both ways - force-feedback/connected controls have in fact contributed to several incidents and accidents over the years. The questions to be asked include whether the "traditional" setup (whereby one pilot can feel what the other is doing) is actually more helpful than not having it versus pilots simply feeling uncomfortable with the notion because they aren't used to it. When it comes to the B777 and B787 a significant amount of that feedback is mediated by software anyway, which adds complexity to the systems.
Peter, you are so very good at explaining aviation related concepts so very beautifully… and you do it in such perfect English when we know English is not your first language. “Hats off to you.”
the side stick needs to have some kind of force feedback system to alert pilots to dual input. in an emergency, that little "dual input" alert gets missed
Didn’t stop the Air France guys fighting each other for control in their 777 though!
Yep, and that’s now here as I explain in the video.
Also audible warning systems can only give a single warning at once. There's a priority system for them. Thus "dual input" won't be given at the same time as an EGPWS/TAWS or TCAS audible warning.
Dual Input volume is as loud as any other aural alert, so not little. Multiple crashes have shown that any alert may be missed in a stressful situation. Training is the difference. An Airbus pilot would be listening for these alerts based on training (just like we listen for our call sign that changes several times a day).
I wonder why it wasn't done in the first place, it's kinda obvious?
I've got experience on both, can confirm the appreciation of the sidestick. The yoke is only ever used for a couple of minutes per flight and then it's just simply in the way. The sidestick provides great aerodynamic protections and ease of use. And yes, the tray table is fantastic. I used to be a yoke guy. I'm now a sidestick guy.
I vote for the yoke 👍😀. I also miss the 737 clasic types,and i am saddened that i might not be able to fly them out there. They look so great with those watches instead of screens. Now, hold your fire, and don't blame on me, i totatlly agree the ease of workload with the display system. But the retro style is more attractive from my point of view. Safe flights out there Peter! ✈️
Yokes for life!!!
@@TheSoftballstar1261 yokes are good but i think sidesticks make you see the screens more clearly and you can also control thrust with your second hand + its easier but yes there's also some cons
I've trained in a tailwheel with a stick. 90% of my flights have been with a stick. I really prefer a stick over a yoke. I've talked with pilots who have flown extensively with a yoke then converted to a plane with a side stick. In every case they said it only took less than a day in a simulator to make the switch and they now prefer a stick.
I have heard learning to fly with a stick has the student thinking of handling a airplane where learning to fly with a yoke may have them think of handling the airplane like a car. i.e. low speed and low to ground and engine goes out, don't "turn steering wheel back to airport."
In my opinion, yoke is 1000 times better than a stick
There is an alternative to side stick and floor mounted yokes. The dash mounted yoke. It has the advantage of having been used by many (most, all?) pilots during their training. Seems like the best of both to me. 😎
I have thousands of hours on both and the cockpit benefits from a sidestick like extra space and the tray table far outway the loss of feel compared to a control column.
If I was going flying for fun I'd want a control column but for work,especially on long haul flights,the sidestick makes the cockpit a lot more comfortable.
When I used to live at an airpark, I knew a guy, who flew A-320, and he said that it was the best he'd ever flown because it had a stick. Of course, he was also a Luscombe pilot, so he really knew stick & rudder flying.
My grandfather was a senior engineer for Raytheon for over 40 years. Both my dad and uncle worked there for their careers as well. Loved Raytheon
When I learned to fly more than 50 years ago, it was in an Aeronca, a tail dragger with a stick rather than a yoke. But it was in the middle, not on the side and it made steering on the ground with the rudders more than intuitive. If the sidesticks are on the outer sides of the cockpit, wouldn't that mean that one pilot is using it right handed, and the other left- handed? I would think that would make switching roles difficult
Its actually quite easy, I’ve heard from sources. It takes a few simulator sessions but that’s it.
I thought the same before I tried, but I fly motorgliders with my right and SEP's with my left right now and the switch was super easy
I probably should wait for the end of the video but I’m curious to hear how Mentour Pilot will answer this issue. Will he mention the biggest advantage that specifically comes from non-linked side stick technology? I can’t wait.
It's a bit like going from a car with the steering wheel on one side to one with the wheel on the other. Takes a little of getting used to, but a lot of that comes down from the fact that so much looks just a little bit different. Don't forget that even with a yoke, so many controls are still on your other side, hell you even have to keep the centerline on your other side when taxiing.
And btw it's the same with a yoke the captain uses his left and the FO his right hand
Very good mentioning AF-11. As mentioned, the final BEA report is still not out, but this was a dual-input issue with a yoke design and the pilots did not realise the problem. The argument that a mechanical yoke eliminates the sidestick issues is not entirely valid; it only mitigates the input/feedback challenges - but they are still there as AF-11 have shown us. When humans put their mind into something, decide what is true or false, humans end in a tunnel vision situation very difficult to escape from - sidestick or yoke.
Would be interesting to discuss the airbus sidestick "priority" system which allow one side to override the other in case of conflicting inputs.
6:34. When you said "yoy-stick" I had to pull over on the highway cause of laughter. It reminded me of my late Grandpa singing Jorge Jorgensen songs at Christmas. Lmao
"Oh I yust go nuts at Christmas" and "Muriel's vedding". "Nincompoops have all the fun!"
Keep up the great content Mentour, and that's no yoke! 🤣👍👍👍
You're the vest!
I flew Boeings for about 17 years before transferring to the A320 family. Unfortunately I went to the first sim session with a somewhat negative attitude toward side sticks. For all the reasons you mentioned. It took me about 30 seconds flying to change my mind. It felt like such a natural way to maneuver an airplane. I admit there are downsides to Airbus compared to Boeing (don't get me started on the presentation to the pilot flying a non precision approach 🙂 ), but that side stick is a winner for me.
Cheers,
Peter
Yeah. The side stick is natural.
Because the rest of the front panel already looks like you're flying a video game. 😝😜
Same sorta story here. However, besides Boeing and Airbus products, we also fly Gulfstream products. And when you talk about presentations to pilots on anything, the Boeings and Airbus are both crappy. In that department, the Gulfstream is decades ahead.
@Clayson Antoons probably because Gulfstream customers aren't pinching pennies on pilot training thus embrace new tech even if it means additional training or even a new type rating.
Airlines, on the other hand, put much pressure on the manufacturers to make airplanes that don't require ANY new training for their thousands of pilots. God forbid they spend one cent more than they have to on pilot training.
Further use of haptics might help. Taking a page from traditional knob and switch design, you could imagine a sidestick whose handle actually changes shape when the control law changes, or that similarly provides tactile feedback in the case of conflicting pilot inputs (as opposed to FBW feedback). Imagine, for instance, a stick that can change profile from something smoothly contoured to something more angular, or whose padding can get stiffer under the hand. There's so much more we can do than just shaking!
I flew Boeing for less than 1000 hours and now I’m 13 years Airbus pilot and I have to admit that fly the yoke is much easier and more fun but the table in Airbus 😍 and I remember once in a long flight the table was inoperative and I was like 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
FAL..... so you flew when an aircraft was dangerous to fly 😊😀😣
#airbusforever #airbusforthewin #airbusforlife
In several of your crash videos, you’ve shown how some crashes happen with asynchronous control inputs on side sticks where those warnings are covered over by more important warnings. In some of these, Master warnings or similar alerts are more important but those control inputs are actually causing these Master cautions. How are the airlines fixing these types of problems?
If Boeing can develop a table that comes from the side while still keeping the yoke it'll be legendary
I'm not an airline pilot but a simple flight simulator enthusiast.
In my opinion the only sidestick disadvantage is related at fact that both axis (pitch and roll) converge to a single fulcrum.
So, for example, a pitch input (for example during rotation), make possible to apply an undesired small input on the roll axis too, and vice versa.
Yoke instead, has two separate fulcrums.
Yes, l agree. Pretty sure FBW elininates this problem. Fly the Airbus 320 with TM Airbus TCA to see what I mean.
I'd like the control feel of yoke but I definitely prefer the space the stick gives pilots.
I feel like a potential happy medium would be a dash-mounted yoke. It has the weight and space advantages over the floor-mounted yoke, as well as bringing a sense of familiarity from popular small aircraft that many pilots train in (Cessna 182, etc.)
Expert and informed analysis and this long time aviation vet appreciates the research and thinking that goes into it.
I think Boeing will keep yoke for the foreseeable future. Type rating/training easier.
It’s possible but I think there might be a chance of a switch..
I'm not associated with aviation at all, other than riding in the airplane or the airbus. I'd think that Boeing can't change to the side stick just because it would be an admission that the competition was "better" and that it would be seen as "they finally caught up" or, worse "they copied Airbus because the side stick is 'better.'"
@Clayson Antoons it wouldn't be a "new Coke" situation? Airbus wouldn't advertise that "they finally learned that we were right all along?" Is aircraft marketing different than marketing other technology/machinery items? (genuine question, as, I'm sure you can tell, I'm not in marketing either.)
The last time Boeing made a technical decision for training reasons, people died.
@@MentourNow Let's hope not
In the case of the original 777, the first fly-by-wire aircraft from Boeing, there is a mechanical cable connection to one pair of spoilers and the horizontal stab trim so in theory you could still control the airplane if there were a complete failure of the FBW system.
I think there is a reversionary mode but I’m not sure. Have to ready the poh
I’m not a pilot, my “flight experience” is limited to flying spaceships in game, but I’ve tried both yolk and side sticks/HOTAS, for flying and I have to say, much prefer the side sticks on longer flights because of the tables space I can use in front of me
Well unfortunately Air France flight 447 didn't have active side control sticks, probably it wouldn't have gone down, so that's definitely a plus if the future Airbus or even if Boeing goes that path to be introduced in commercial air travel!! , good job Mentour, love these insights of where aviation in general could go next.
As an enthusiast and not a pilot, I would say my favorite example of a side stick is what is used in a Cirrus SR22. Granted, it is pretty much the smallest 2-pilot aircraft ever equipped with a side stick, but the side sticks are mechanically linked to each other, and they are mechanically linked to all the control surfaces.
I believe Cirrus handles trim on their planes with a preload set against the control sticks, so that the neutral position of the control stick changes when you adjust the trim, rather than the stick's relation to the control surfaces actually changing, but I don't know as much about them as I would if I actually flew one.
Can't wait to see JOYSTICKS on my next flight in a Boeing.
Me also. I was looking for a 787.
Speaking of haptic feedback, how do you feel about touchscreens? I find I get distracted even changing the music in the car by touchscreen, so I imagine it would be more difficult with a pilot's workload.
I’ve never flown a jet by any means, but I’ve always preferred a yoke to a stick. That said, if I ever became rich enough to justify a private jet, I absolutely love the Cirrus Vison, and I’d happily buy one despite the video game stick
You don't love the vision jet for long. You'll notice you're the slowest jet out there and constantly in the way of others.
At least the Vision's side-stick is far more ergonomic than the one in the SR-20/22.
@@andrewromig9753 must be nice to know. I wish I knew. LOL.
I think it’s time to do away with the yoke on digital new aircraft. As a military pilot, most of my hours were logged in yoke aircraft because they were often two pilot driven and mechanical. I’ve also flow a few flights in the F16 with it’s side stick controller. The side sticks in Gulfstream digital flight controls seem the way to go. You don’t need the yoke for EFBs or other flying equipment so side stick provides visual confirmation of inputs and allows cross check of inputs. The side stick will be more productive, less space consuming and allow a facsimile game controller button access to glass displays. It will probably require a type cert because it’s logic pattern will be outside the current model. Progress is hard, but ultimately rewarding.
Ko
One big difference between flying an airliner and a fighter is that in an airliner you are only going to have a hand on the yoke/stick for a very small proportion of the flight - most of the time is spent on autopilot just monitoring things. For the great bulk of the flight a yoke or centre stick is just going to be a big nuisance - obscuring intruments, easily bumped, and taking space.
@@kenoliver8913 Ken, observations are correct. When you can’t observe the position of flight controls because of the control column/stick, then you lose SA with the AP engaged. I am working my IR rating and I discussed with my CFII how critical it is to disconnect the AP when you are in icing and gusting crosswind winds. These two conditions require hand flying.
For my experience I flew C123k , B737-200,-300,-400 (how old I am ! haha)…I agree with you about the advantages when we train a new pilot on the aircraft with yoke especially during the one engine out landing or going around. But I am really interested in flying the aircraft with ESM sidestick that would make me have more comfortable office in the air and still have advantages of yoke . Hope you have more comfortable office on your next Boeing aircraft.
You quite rightly stated that the 777 was fly by wire but it is important to clarify that when Boeing developed the 777 they did so in collaboration with United Airlines as the launch customer. During development Boeing intended to use side sticks but was met with resistance from UA pilots who basically didn't have enough confidence in that design and insisted on a conventional yoke control system. Boeing then designed a feel system attached to the yokes which are nothing more than a very heavy side stick with artificial feedback.
Did you hear about that incident when the pilots of an Airbus A320 lost pitch and roll control mid-flight? After going through the checklists, they discovered that the joystick was accidentally pulled out of the USB port! (right, I'll just show myself out now)
Jokes aside, I think the best advantage of sidestick is that it is out of the way for the 99% of the flight when the AP is engaged or you are controlling the aircraft via the MCP. Additionally, you can use the pull-out desk/table for your checklists and eating meals while facing straight.
When I read the report on AF447, it became immediately obvious that the side sticks should be servo 'd together so the other pilot knows what's going on. There should always be force feedback. An experienced pilot told me that decades ago.
Also, the servo should (looking at you 787) should have a very high force limit, not just 50 pounds, more like 100 pounds before a very loud audio warning goes off.
If you fully read the report you’d also see the sidestick was not listed as a contributing factor
I think force feedback may prevent a lot of crashes where both pilots grab the controls (as the aural warning might not be perceived if they're tunnel focused). Nonetheless I would prefer a nice big yoke in front of me, harder to miss than something on the opposite sides of the pilots. If your colleague grabs the yoke you have a better chance of catching the movement. I think front or side sticks make a lot more sense in smaller (but beautiful) general aviation aircraft like the Pipistrel Panthera, due to the ergonomics of it and it often being flown by one pilot, and of course in gliding. But yeah I would definitely prefer a yoke (although maybe with a side-design instead of a floor design, for better leg space).
You are a remarkable gentleman and every time I watch and enjoy your videos I feel the thrill and pride of your parents and teachers. Well done, again.
Unfortunately the standard biased view from a Boeing pilot with a chest pumping "if it's not Boeing, I'm not going" mentality. I have flown both from the A350 and now back to the B777 and I can tell you that yoke is only their because Airbus did it first and therefore Boeing can't appear to follow Airbus. Nothing more than a pride thing. What is not discussed is the overall view of instruments and perspective of the flight controls that Airbus and Gulfstream have without the yoke. The added and mostly understated feature is the abilty of the traytable is to be able to eat your meal instead of balancing your food on your lap or on the techlog.The yoke unfortunately is a ghost from the past that Boeing still can't shake. In reference to sidesticks being left in a negative trim, this is factually incorrect. Airbus has auto trim on most automatic pilot inputs in turn, climb, descent and based on the actual current flight envelope.The ONLY time that an Airbus pilot needs to manually trim is in an engine failure after takeoff. The rest of the time, the fly by wire systems automatically trim the aircraft. I think you might have confused that with the infamous MCAS trim system on the 737 Max. Over my entire flying career flying both Boeing and Airbus, the only people that hate Airbus are Boeing pilots. Is it a lack of understanding, is it fear of a better product, is it a dismissing claim for pride or ego that Boeing is no longer the world's leading aircraft manufacturer? Who knows? All I know is that both manufacturers build amazing airframes that cater to the aviation market. What Boeing pilots fail to address however is how far Boeing have slipped from the 1990s. They were once an innovative, proud and respected company that pushed aerospace boundaries. The beginning of the end was the MD merger in the 1990s. Quality has suffered, 787 was a total mess and the 737 Max was a disaster, all in the name of cost cutting and shortcuts. Look deeper into Boeing space program and the problems still reside. They still can't get a capsule to the ISS. Boeing better turn it around soon...the yoke discussion isn't their biggest problem.
Excelent!!!
I work in the marine industry, a few years ago Volvo Penta introduced a joy stick controle to operate its new IPS drive system, conventional controles were still available onboard, it allows you to do almost anything you want with the boat at low speed docking situations, I have never liked it, prefer twin shaft drives and a bow thruster, more controle, and for less expierienced captains , the joystick is less intuitive and easier to get into trouble.
Although I trained in Cessnas, with their dual yokes, I believe sidestick are the future for all aircraft, from GA through military to airliners.
The weight saving, flexibility, space benefit and ergonomics simply can't be ignored. As all aircraft move to FBW, the additional force that can be exerted through yokes becomes moot, and force feedback is now fully mature, allowing dual pilots to feel what each other is doing, as well as what aerodynamic forces are being exerted. It allows maintenance to replace faulty units as a module, or even plug in additional controls for (for example) a check pilot.
So I think it is inevitable that the yoke will go the way of the dodo, and pilots in the future will marvel at the old yokes, and just how much of the pilot's field of view they consumed.
Great video Petter.
Technically interesting.
I think they will have to consider it certainly.
However they are known to be less inovative than other manufacturers.
Having "flown" the airbus A320 level D in BA's training facilty(courtesy of a TRI friend) i loved the sidestick.
Same when i "flew" the B747 level D sim there as i had the GA pilot experience of the yoke.
Personally i would fly it no matter what type of controls were installed 😉
I'm sure Boeing will go to a Sidestick layout in the future. 100%. We see it with the companies you mentioned + Bombardier + Embraer. Everyone is going that route. It's just more comfortable and the little manual flying we pilots do we can do just as well with a stick.
For the sake of commonality that may not happen anytime soon
Boeing would be insane to stick with yokes, the benefits of sidesticks are just so multiple.
From a pilot perspective I can see the yoke 'argument', I still drive a manual transmission car for the same 'I can feel things' reason. Active feedback on the side sticks should handle that.
I spent my last five years at Boeing in Product Development, where I actively promoted active sidesticks and worked with multiple suppliers on them. That was 2005-2010, so I really don't expect it to happen any time soon!
Oh, and Boeing Commercial doesn't use the term "yoke". It's a "control wheel". My signature is on the drawings.
I am a Private Pilot, Single Engine Land Instrument rated. By far my hours are in aircraft with a yoke but I f have a few hours with sidestick, both from left seat and right seat and it does not take that long to adjust.
So if pilots hate the term "joystick", and the control sticks in airplanes are called "sidesticks" because they're on the side, then are helicopter control sticks called "centersticks"?
No, it's a "Cyclic", Helicopter do anything differently.
In a logical world yes lol however helicopter center sticks are referred to as “cyclic”
Call it happysticks
Actually it’s called a cyclic pitch control stick or “cyclic”
Small planes commonly have a center-mounted stick as well, typically they just call it the "stick" or "control stick." Never heard it called a "joystick." In my perception anyway "joystick" typically refers to a smaller control used for controlling a computer system or video game (think the little sticks on a game controller), the stick on a smaller airplane (not fly-by-wire) is larger and mechanically linked to the flight controls. Side-sticks are sort of between the two in terms of size.
Loved the sidestick having flown both yoke and sidestick aircraft over many years. Seeing the sidestick move isn't really an issue and with auto-trim in fbw neither is feeling aerodynamic feedback. Having that extra space, no yoke blocking anything, and of course the tray table all make the sidestick the superior way to control an acft. People who criticize the airbus sidestick approach are usually people who have never flown those acft.
I was a proper Boeing kid growing up. Was quite critical of sidesticks, which is only natural (like defending your favorite football team). But being a stupid kid with zero experience and a big mouth, later in life I changed my tune and grew more mature with the ability to accept other peoples arguments. After getting a proper run in some simulators (Level D - long story) I changed my tune. Not that I prefer one over the other, I found it easy to use regardless of which hand (which seat) after receiving some good tips on how to interface with them.
I suppose if Boeing can make sidesticks have the same advantages as a yoke, it would be OK.
Airbus hadn't done that, so they had several air crashes where side-sticks contributed to a disaster.
But as the 777 incident could show, there is just no way to eliminate the ability of humans to screw up if they don't follow the procedures for cockpit coordination.
Great analysis as always. Interestingly, Boeing already makes large jets with a control stick, ie the military C17 Globemaster. Albeit mounted center instead of side, plus they're molded specifically for left hand in left seat, right hand in right seat.
I wouldn't be surprised if they just adopted it to the side with a newer version on future civil aircraft. Logical.
Force feedback in gaming has been a thing for a couple of decades.
Though there aren't many force feedback joysticks around any more.
The real difference I care is C* vs C*U, aka if you can feel speed deviation with stick pressure.
AFAIK A220 and C919 uses C*U FBW law as 777/787, but on side stick, (not sure on Gulfstream and MC21). It really helps to feel if your speed is changing when approaching and watching the runway rather than speedo and without using A/T.
BTW even on 737 (actually from 707) the yoke feeling is already full artificial with spring and hydraulic in normal condition, it doesn't trim like a conventional G/A with trim tab anyway, so no need for a FFB system to make side stick feel like that.
Dynamic/synchronized feedback controls are the future.
I almost got a job as a CAD Drafter with BAE Systems back in 2000.
When McDonnell Douglas made the MD-90 - a new version of the MD-80 series, they gave the aircraft a new cockpit. But due to cockpit commonality issues, multiple airlines wanted to keep the MD-80 cockpit. So in the end, McDonnell Douglas created both - a modernized cockpit and an old cockpit. All the airlines chose the old cockpit, except for Saudi Arabian Airlines. It should be possible for Boeing to create a new cockpit where the airline can choose between side sticks and yokes, but they would have to certify both types.
The 777 and 787 are different type ratings in the US, as well as the A330 and A340. The only common type is the 757 and 767 over here. Are these really common types under EASA?
Yes. And the A350 can be a common type rating with A330 too. The only one that has its own is the A380
Having been an RC model pilot in the 80s I am familiar with different controls on the sticks. I would like to compare with cars having the driver left or right. Don’t you think reaction response is a bit lower when you constantly have to be aware which seat you are in? It really makes a difference when emergencies occur and automatic handling need to kick in.
Great timing! My daughter flew a stick vs yoke for the first time last week. She was a little nervous, but she didn’t even mention it after the flight. Actually, what she said after flying a brand new aircraft for the first time :”I’ve got the flying part down”😂 so. Yeah. It wasn’t an issue for her - it’s all the other issues of learning to fly that are the hard part for her (ATC, busy airports, patterns, precision maneuvers, etc). Using the stick just wasn’t a factor.
I already use my left hand to operate the stick
…and I’m an F.O on the A320, so it’s all good
Thanks for the video. I was wondering if you could some days do a video about the fly by wire. Explain to us what C* law means, or normal law. Thanks a lot.
Since you have posted - one quite recentyy and also later in this video - videos showing where the 1st officer and Captain both used the side sticks and the system neutralized both causing quite an emergency. Could see the advantage of having the yolks unless they can make it really obvious that a 2nd guy has taken over.
i do like yokes better, but i can fly with a stick just as well so it ultimately does not bother me even though i have always liked the yoke, but i am also very curious to see how the Boeing stick will compare with airbus's stick, and how it will feel, i look forward to seeing it and hopefully getting a chance to demo a sim, and get to fly one irl.
I'm all for control sticks (yokes or sidesticks) feedback and interfeed. However, I've always felt that aerodynamic feedback to controls by following the velocity squared law was inherently wrong, because of two factors, as follows:
• Feedback sensibility results too much reduced at lower speeds
• Action on the controls requires too much strength at higher velocities if untrimmed or affected by aeromechanical malfunction or by center of gravity misplacements.
In the transition from light airplanes to heavier ones some sixty or seventy years ago, such a feedback law made sense: flight simulators could not simulate such subtleties, so the said transitions had to be softer. That was, by the way, when fly-by-wire was initially thought up. Thus, even Boeing B-747 was designed with that squared velocity feedback law.
But, nowadays, there is no reason not to adopt a better feedback law, which might lay between speed-independent and just proportional to plain speed. Training in modern simulators makes the squared velocity feedback law obsolete, unnecessary and inadequate, even dangerous.
I’ve done about 30 hours in a 737-800ng sim and I got the opportunity to sit in the A320neo flight deck twice this year. I love the space! But I’m a bit confused by the side stick!!
I think Boeing should go for mid-sticks, thus eliminating problems that can occur, depending if you're left- or righthanded. Also, there is no need to extensively train to fly with both hands as the main hand. Also also also, if there are two right handed persons, the one in the left seat would probably have less force than the person in the right seat, with side sticks. :)
To all those saying keep it the old fashioned way with a yoke. The truly old fashioned way was a stick between the legs (hence joystick?). How many of you would be happy to see that approach in a modern airliner?
I’d love it.
The positive attitude tee looks really cool. Though not a pilot (yet) only time I sat up front was with a yoke and it seems more natural to me. Even with flight sims, I feel side sticks are more useful in fighter jets. But that’s me as a lay person with zero experience.
is there a problem with pilots being better aviators with one hand over the other depending on which seat they are in? Once you get promoted to captain do you have to relearn how to fly with your left hand?
No, not that I’ve ever heard of. The same actually goes for yokes as well if you think about it. Left hand pilot uses right hand on thrust and left hand on yoke and vice versa.
I taught Boeing pilots to fly Airbus for 16 years. I'd say it requires 10-15 minutes to get comfortable with the left hand side stick.
No different to having right hand drive vs left hand drive in cars (20% of cars in the world drive on the other side of the road to USAnians) - it takes only minutes to completely adjust. Don't forget that you actually only need a hand on the stick for a few minutes of each flight anyway as most of the flight is hands off on autopilot. Not being easy to accidentally bump is one of the advantages of sidesticks.
I still remember my first "fly by wire" AKA throttle by wire motor vehicle. I hated that the accelerator pedal didn't move with cruise control because I couldn't tell how far to move the pedal when I wanted to pass something without causing a downshift.
I was curious about roughly how much time you (as an experienced pilot) would need to get type-certified on a different kind of aircraft (like an airbus etc.)
Me personally (no flight, little sim experience) I think yolk would be fine for shorter flights but the sidestick seems better for longer flights so you can dine and do paperwork (especially on international flights). Let me know if my logic seems off, but that's just how I see things as a layman.
As a passenger, Which ever is safer. As a flight enthusiast, Change can be good.
The Side Sticks at Airbus were first intoduced at the A300-600B mid 80's.
I'm not a pilot, but I imagine I would really appreciate a proper yoke. It just feels safer somehow, and more like a genuine aircraft if that makes sense. And of course I could see what the other pilot is doing. That being said, I see the benefits of the sidestick and wouldn't be surprised if Boeing decided to go for that option eventually.
Except pretty much every pilot grew up playing simulators using a joystick. It's only natural that planes should evolve with generational technology.
I believe it's all fly by wire now anyway, so there's essentially no difference whatsoever between the two from a safety standpoint...?
I love the woke when it’s gusty but for the remaining 11 hours id rather have space for my legs and food.
Sidestick feels much more natural for aircraft in my irrelevant opinion. Yoke are brought over from how human drives automobile most likely. Most high performance aircraft such as aerobatic and fighter use a stick, are these aircraft not safe or genuine?
What, are fighters and helicopters not genuine aircraft?
From an engineering perspective, a yoke is a throwback to a bygone era that older generations are familiar and comfortable with. As with most tech, resistance to change is always dictated by managers and CEO's and these are very rarely young people. For example, an iPad is an objectively superior information device compared to a huge folder of charts.
Until you spill your coffee on a binder full of charts or a tablet...with one there is the possibility of losing one, or part of one chart, but in the other all the charts...
I remember in the mid-1990s talking to a Delta Airlines captain who said that at that time the airline was opposed to using any aircraft that didn't have a yoke. That changed over time when Delta started buying A320s.
Cool! Force Feedback Sidesticks!!
🤩🤩🎇
To me it’s pretty easy, when flying a yoke based plane you have one hand in the yoke and the other on the throttle. So why even have a yoke if you’re not using both hands all the time?
Thats true! I feel the stick is more intuitive just the fact ur not using both hands on it anyway
Boeing already produces a few aircraft with side sticks. The new T-7A Red Hawk military trainers for example. Going forward they might have them for future fighters as well, since it gives a slight benefit in management of g loads for pilots.
You should take a look at the Avro Arrow from Canada. They developed a feed back FBW controls in the 50's for the Avro Arrow.
Yep, there are a lot of cool new designs.
Yup, that experience of flight controls from the Avro Arrow's knowledge in turn was used by NASA for the space program in the 60's and of course the Lunar Lander had a side stick. A lot of Avro engineers ended up working for NASA after the demise of the Avro Arrow program.
I have a friend that I guess is a senior pilot and would teach other pilots and guess had taught them to use side sticks. He did not think it was too big a deal to teach to use side sticks.
I think this compares to something we all use but might not immediately link. PC users all have a mouse that each of use set to our own sensitivity. PC gamers take this a few steps further and bespoke these features and tune them to their own motor skills.
A yoke is like setting a lower DPI (sensitivity) and will give a more controlled point to point but require greater input for quicker movements
The Sidestick (Joystick) is a high DPI which shortens the throw, giving an instant move to the direction you'd like to face
Both work for different people, a sniper would prefer a joke while a SMG user a sidestick. The real "which is better" only depends on the battlefield they play.
In a controlled approach then the yoke is king, throw in a sudden un-expected side wind then I'd rather be holding a Sidestick. Apples and Pears.
Joke or yoke?
After air france 447 I was really surprised the A350 did not have a proper feedback feature. In high stress situations it's a very obvious advantage.
@#BoycottShingrix That is not a good argument, since there are an equal number of Boeing crashes that couldn't happen on an Airbus.
I love Airbus ❣️
But don't know why, I prefer yoke more than sidestick 😂
Although I'm not planning on becoming a pilot, I know that pilots start their careers with smaller planes. Of course, those small planes built by Cessna and some other general aviation manufacturers still uses yokes. I don't think yokes should be obsolete.
Agreed. Although I prefer active sidesticks, yokes are still lovely and shouldn't be obsolete.
You mentioned the MC-21 would be the first airliner with active sidesticks as standard which makes me wonder: do other airliners (A350, A330neo, A220) have it as an option? I really enjoyed this video, very interesting, thanks Petter 👍🏻☺️
No
Interesting. I'm not a pilot, but personally, I find the idea of using a sidestick really strange. I remember using a sidestick in a flight simulator for a lightning and it was really unintuitive compared to a yoke.
There's seem to have been a lot of accidents on Airbus airplanes where both pilots were inputting on the side-sticks without knowing it. This doesn't seem to happen on Boeing planes as you can immediately notice that the other pilot has their hand on the yoke.
Hence Boeings earlier decision to stick with yokes.. but as the video says, that’s about to change.
@@MentourNow fortunately, because when you have to correct a flare or a wing low to a Rookie pilot it’s really very unsafe because the takeover push button is counter intuitive and when the other pilot is with túnel vision in a difficult approach he usually doesn’t even hear the “I have control” call out. Also with the very heavy roosters that are a joke concerning aviation safety even if legal, in a last leg of a 12 hour day you are somewhat slower.
The only known accident where this was ever cited as a factor is AF447, and the pilots there had already got themselves in such a panicked and confused state that I don't think a yoke would have made the slightest difference.
Sidesticks were considered for the 777, and they made a prototype system. I was told that sidesticks were not chosen more because of the prototype sidestick implementation rather than the concept. (I was told this by one of the engineers who was on the sidestick prototype team.)
It's absolutely blowing my mind that active sidesticks haven't been standard for decades. I remember force-feedback joysticks in the mid-90s and I guess I just figured that any flight-stick-based Fly-by-Wire system would have include a higher-quality version of the concept.
There is alot of electromechanical magic that needs to be designed and proven to be absolutely fool proof, motors, motor drivers, position sensors, fail-safes, software and a well documented and proven solution to every consevable failure mode that this complex system could generate.