@@DisabledElizawhich is the point isnt it? People saying she's "tragic" and treating her differently because of her chair is supposed to be icky. The musical says a lot about social dynamics, mob mentality, tolerance, internalized discrimination and fake kindness/acceptance; and this is one of the examples. This could also be why Nessa in the musical wishes she isnt disabled-- not because of the disability itself but because of how people treat her. Like Elphie, she wanted people to treat her as they would other people and the only solution in her mind is to change herself. However, unlike Elphie, she is fixated on that want and so is compliant to what people expect from her and bemoans her circumstances; whereas Elphie finds a different route to foster acceptance without being "de-greenified" (because she realized it is not her that is the problem, but the people around her). But anyway, thats just my theory. It has been a long while since I've seen the musical so I'm just basing it off of what you said in the video (and the soundtrack and the movie)
@@DisabledElizawhat infuriates me is that they removed dwarf actors from playing the munchkins. It could have given so many of them jobs and with Boq being a main character it could’ve allowed the munchkins to be more fleshed out. The director said he wanted the munchkins to be a culture rather than a race (weird argument) but then still referenced munchkins being short several times in the movie. For all their attempts to be progressive towards wheelchair users, their erasure of dwarves from the story is completely reductive and ableist.
Someone said something I find interesting. While some characters may infantilize Nessa, the narrative doesn't. I quite like that when Elphaba's powers flare up, she doesn't bring Nessa to her, but into the air where nobody can touch her. Very curious to see how things play out come Part 2.
@@MNCMN345 That IS good to hear. However, I DO recall the Witch Of The East being ablebodied. Then again, the original Witch of the West wasn't played by a black woman, so, I guess we'll have to see how things play out.
I did like that the big trigger was a condescending person grabbing Nessa’s chair to “help” her when she didn’t ask and didn’t want or need help. I like that with a movie lens the actress could express the kind of affront and annoyance this is, because a lot of fully ambulatory people without chair using peers don’t realize how jarring it is to do that.
I’m a wheelchair user, and I’ve got a very protective big sister (who I went to see Wicked with 20 years ago) and we had such a moment in the movie theatre this week both when Elphaba had her moment of _Leave her alone_ and when Boq has the _F it, let’s dance!_ moment and the dancing is exactly how I’d dance, and you can tell that this is a real wheelchair user really dancing her heart out. Not much else in the film got me teary eyed, but that did. Pure joy, really.
@ I mean the actress is a wheelchair user in real life and will be performing the role in part two as well, so I doubt she’s going to be high kicking and flipping. When she saw _Wicked_ as a child, she has said she was elated to see a wheelchair user on stage, wondering if the actress was really in a wheelchair, and a little devastated (at age 11, mind) when she was magically fixed - when she _BEGGED to be magically fixed_ - because Marissa didn’t feel so terribly broken, she was just Marissa, and I get that. So with the agency the actresses are being given, I expect the shoes will come with a cost in the same way using a mundane mobility aide will, i.e. pain, exhaustion, etc. Hell, I can do a nice slow partner dance myself-it’s not going to break my heart to see Marissa throw out a few moves!
As a disabled person seeing so many wheelchairs with actually disabled actors brought tears to my eyes and made me happy we finally get something after all these years.
@@DisabledElizathe actress who played nessarose is being attacked for her disability basically mirroring everyone at shiz who was being rude to the character
Not to disavow anything you said, but I think the ickiness is the point. Elphaba was ridiculed so much for have green skin that she grew to despise it. Nessa was babied so much for her disability, that she grew to hate it. While it's a problem that those two hate themselves, the real ickiness is that other people _made_ them hate themselves. Elphaba learning to accept herself came when Glinda _finally_ gave her a chance and included her. Contrasted with Nessa who _thought_ she got that too, only to come to the heartbreaking realization that she was once again being pitied because she's in a wheelchair. And this culiminates with the person who felt powerless her whole life gaining power and in turn, making others feel powerless. Which flows beautifully to her getting to walk for the first time. She was so convinced that her disability was the only thing wrong with her. That once she was "healed" everything would just get better. Boq would love her along with everyone else. But that obviously wasn't the case. It wasn't the disability. Never was. She just knew bad people and allowed them to turn her into a bad person. She could have become a good governesses after her father died, but she didn't. She believed she treated them as they deserved. She could have found someone else who truly loved her, but she didn't. She believed Boq was the best she could get. She could have learned to love and accept herself, but she didn't. She thought her disability was the only thing wrong with her. The ickiness is the point. The ickiness is the tragedy. I'm not sure how they're gonna change it in the movie, but I think it's important they keep Nessa walking. It just fits with her character and the theme.
I think if a story is designed to be based of heavy ableism it’s still icky, even if the whole intention was to be ableist as you’ve listed many many disability stereotypes 😅
@DisabledEliza That's a valid feeling though I wouldn't exactly call it a fair criticism to the story as a whole. Ozians _are_ ablist. Ozians _are_ racist. And I guess speciest towards Animals, but that was a clear racial allegory so I'm grouping their treatment with Elphaba. Don't judge a book by its cover is the core theme. But all 3 are being judged. They are being stereotyped. They don't get to be normal people. Elphaba is wicked because she's green. Nessa is a burden because she's disabled. Dr. Dillamond is caged because he's an Animal. And he experiences a legitimate Hate Crime. It's stereotypical to have someone write a hateful message for him to see. It's cliche for Elphaba to want to change the color of her skin due to prejudice. And it's stereotypical Nessa believes her disability makes her less than. Neither their treatment or the conclusions they reach due to it is portrayed in a good light. Elphaba wanting Oz to degreenify her isn't seen as a good thing. Just sad. Even when she has the opportunity to ask him, the very request feels wrong. Like it was so small compared to the real issues. That Elphaba can just be green in Oz and use her power to actually do some good. Dr. Dillamond losing his ability to speak is portrayed as something horrific. A robbing of what makes him, him. Nessa gaining the ability to walk isn't a joyous scene. It's frantic, grungy, wrong. In contrast with Elphaba, the first thing she does with her newfound power is something bad. And she's actively punished for it by Boq immediately wanting to leave. Nothing good came from her becoming abled because their was nothing _wrong_ with her being disabled. It was all her.
@@DisabledEliza Hard disagree, if done properly, the ickiness HAS to be involved in order for it to work. Especially in the world of Oz where animals are getting fucked over.
you think she'll be a bad governor in part 2 because she started to realise that earlier? That's the feeling I got from watching the movie, they cut the 'it's me that's not right' line and just had her stare and Boq as he cheered for Glinda before wheeling away. I mean, did she realise that Boq liked Glinda without being told and that that's why she became a tyrant afterwards? I don't think they can change that plot line in part 2 even if they change some of the details. She was glaring so much listening to the radio broadcast in the final scene I began to wonder if she was the one causing her father to have a heart attack. But that was mostly because I was hoping they'd show her having powers in the first part of the movie because I realised it didn't make sense that she would be able to even guess at what the Grimmie was saying to mispronounce the words and that it would have any effect at all since she's shown no sign of having any magic at all in act 1. If she got so angry that she caused him to have a heart attack because she got so fed up with being infantilised when she wasn't being overlooked that she attacked the person who treated her like a child the most then it would make more sense.
I loved that the way Nessa was treated problematically by some of the characters played into the theme of the appearance of goodness versus actually doing good. The filmmakers framed how Glinda and that one teacher treated her as cringeworthy. Even just the “don’t touch my chair” bit really got to me, like yes, exactly! I don’t know how much ableism will play into Part 2. I want her to become a villain but I’m so afraid her motivation will still be as you described. But honestly I’m going into it as at least a partial win, like how I view the Fourth Wing book series. The content is problematic, but having a disabled person as a key character in a big fantasy franchise opens up studio executives and publishers to accept more stories with disabled characters from disabled performers and/or writers.
Yes I felt the exact same in the film! It feels so much more genuine and that’s really just credit to Marissa for putting th work in! I’m really interested to see what part 2 will be like and hopeful for a positive change!
@ I’m going to respectfully disagree. I think it’s written from a very non-disabled lens of someone in a wheelchair being completely dependent on another person, Even if fully paralyzed there’s a lot of things that can be done or learned to do independently, just maybe not certain inclines or some non-transferable places. And it places someone in a wheelchair as automatically needing help, like Elphaba should have first thought of Nessarose needing to be saved because of her circumstances. Wicked is still my favorite musical despite all of this. I’m probably gonna hodgepodge my way into a Nessa costume for Halloween. Maybe if there were more layered roles for wheelchair users this specific incident would feel like a point-of-view, but it’s the same narrow idea again and again in movies and other media.
@ Violet is supposed to have EDS like her author. So it’s more than weak joints. It can affect bones, cartilage, skin, blood, fat, muscles, so many things. Easily bruising, heart rhythm problems, muscle weakness, fragile joints, double joints, hyper-mobile joints. It can develop into broken blood vessels, fatigue, difficulty concentrating, being injured all the time, internal bleeding, stroke. I don’t think the author wrote that as clearly as it should have been. And I also wish that there was hypermobility so there would be more than just something to overcome, like that could have been how she stayed on the bridge, how she avoided attacks. But I don’t know how the series is planned, if she gets out of the “I can’t ever be weak, or I’m a failure” kind of mentality.
One of my ideas for adapting her plot in part 2 is that she’s aware of Boq having feelings for Glinda instead of her so the spell would be a ‘make them what they desire’ type of spell where it makes her look like Glinda (blonde hair, pink dress, even making the shoes red) but still be in the chair. When Boq comes in he isn’t having any of it and would essentially say he’d rather have the real Glinda instead of an imitation. This is what would cause Nessa to do the spell.
I agree with your critiques, but part of me thinks, is that not the whole point of Wicked? Glinda isn't a hero for pitying Nessa. Boq is clearly in the wrong for staying "loyal" to Nessa. And Nessa's demanding of Elphaba to cast the spell that enables her to walk is not presented as good in any way. It literally destroys her life, far more than being in a wheelchair ever did.
@DisabledEliza oh I see. Do you think it could work differently seeing how those elements weren't present in part one of the movie like they were in the musical? Perhaps leaning more towards her love of Boq than the stereotypical bitterness?
@@cameronhodgetts920 She has to be bitter. She's The Wicked Witch of the East who oppresses the Munchkins (of which Boq happens to be, albeit oversized) & gets Dorothy Gale's flying farmhouse smashed atop her via errant tornado summoned by Madame Morrible after Glinda suggests the best way to lure fugitive Elphie out of hiding is to go after her crippled/disabled sister.
I love that in the movie (I can't remember from the stage show) Nessa is supposed to be the only sister attending Shiz. That she is fine and ready to go off to university, Elphaba is happy and says that she is fine, it is the overly protective dad who won't let her be (and we already jnow he is not the best). We also see Nessa adapting just fine and making friends right away. I hated Boq for playing on her emotions to try and impress Galinda. I want more of her character and story.
I don’t want to say your points are wrong, because I completely agree that in some parts of the show Nessa’s portrayal and the way people treat her are kinda icky in terms of disability representation, but I do kinda want to note that Galinda has a bit of depth in her addition to it. She is very self-centered and she only makes decisions that make her *appear* good, she isn’t really a nice and just person. The way she treats Nessa is supposed to exemplify her artificial nature, she only pitys her when it makes people look at her as being careing (like how she changed her name in solidarity of Dr. Dillamond, it’s shallow and only a decision made to make her look good), so when she makes Bach go out with her, it’s a two in one, she seems merciful for pitying the disabled and she gets the guy she doesn’t want to back off. Never in the play is this shown to be a morally upstanding thing to do, as Galinda is constantly put under scrutiny for her selfish tendencies, so her pity being unwarranted isn’t touched on as all her actions are ment to show how superficial she is, could this have been done better? Possibly, but this is just something to keep in mind. Now the trapping of Bach is definitely a valid concern and I hadn’t thought about how people always assume disabled people want to remove there disability, when in reality they just want to live their lives with accommodations, so that point is very much something to think about. Very nice video, just thought I would add some of my thoughts on Galinda.
I think for me it’s more than just galinda but also Elphaba having to follow nessa to uni because they are worried about her, or even blaming herself for nessas disability it all just sits a bit uncomfortable personally but agree with what you said about galinda, although I suppose there is a conversation to be had about why she thought that was socially acceptable as well! Xx
@ oh I definitely agree, as whole it felt like it could have been handled better. I feel like they really wanted to force a comparison of how both sisters were unhappy with the situation they were given, but it just feels forced and beating down on Nessa’s position, as if she needed to be babied. Nessa is her own woman, unfortunately it seem that even in a fantasy realm society reflects our own. I just felt like out of the whole mess? Galinda was the most “ defensible” - in that, if they were to rewrite it with a more open mind of sorts, Galinda would be one of the few where I argue it makes sense of her character to take advantage of those perceived as lesser. I personally don’t agree with those ideals, but unfortunately there are people who are like her and take advantage of those who are often ignored till it’s convenient to acknowledge them. It sucks, my heart goes out to all of those affected by these societal issues, but in stories like these, if her character is already written like that, why brush past that issue and instead point out how Galinda doing this is wrong(I feel like they tried to do that with the movie, but went past it quicker than would allow for this to flesh out). But the biggest thing is to actually allow a real disabled actor on stage in the show to prove this point, but I digress. In short, I still find this video very information and I agree with you, but maybe it’s cause I look a little too deep into character motivations, that I just wanted to point out how Galinda’s part could have shown how it’s bad to treat Nessa the way she often is. Though if every other character treats her the same that point does get kinda muted. Sorry if I came off argumentative, that wasn’t my intention and thanks for the response as well.
@@DisabledElizaOkay but to softly push back on Elphaba's position here. In the movie at least (as I have never had a chance to see the musical), Elphaba does not want to follow Nessarose and tries to argue with her father, who is shown to overly baby Nessa due to her being the right color, the last child he could have with his wife, and disabled. Elphaba does react to protect Nessa when she's being pushed away but it was in reaction to seeing Nessa's self advocacy being ignored, and Nessa is lifted out of reach, not automatically returned to Elphaba's side. Nessa is still embarrassed and upset both with Elphaba and the entire situation as she has every right to be. Elphaba still overstepped in trying to make sure Nessa's voice is heard and undermined her desire to be independent. And we are never shown Elphaba telling Nessa about what happened with their father or not why she chose to attend Shiz. So to Nessa it is easy to see Elphaba as someone else who has always pitied and tried to help her*. As for Elphaba blaming herself for Nessa's disability: both an in narrative and out of narrative explanation holds up. In universe, Elphaba has been very explicitly blamed for Nessa's wheelchair since she was a child. Even if you can intellectualize it later in life in your own head that trauma still persists and that's why it's such a big deal for Galinda to actually say that it's not true. Galinda is likely the first person to say that out loud. Given the strain of the siblings' relationship even if Elphaba told Nessa her guilt and Nessa tried to reassure her, it wouldn't have sunk in. And I personally doubt that happened once Nessa was older and found her freedom being constrained by everyone around her. Metatextually, this is a discussion of what it means to be Wicked and how someone can end up this way. Therefore Elphaba the character is made to essentially live through a pseudo-Biblical trials of Job. She's green, she has weird powers she can't control, her father despises her and forces her to care for Nessa which leads to a rift between sisters. She isn't allowed to want for herself. She takes the blame for everything. The narrative takes every chance it can to tear her down so when she hits that low point we can see her turn and why. *Something I realized while writing this is that Elphaba's attempts to advocate for Nessarose lines up with her later attempts to advocate for Animals. In both cases she is coming from a well meaning place but, like with making the situation worse for Nessa and imposing herself on her sister's life more at Shiz, what happens to the cub that she "saved" later on? What happens to her teacher and the flying monkeys? She wants to do good, but she's not part of the community and she's not exactly listening to them either. It's different from Galinda's obvious faux niceties and it's easy to dismiss Elphaba's actions as she's doing her best, but is she really? We never see her properly talk to Nessa after the incident. Is this to save time or is it because that rift is broken forever? I'm very curious what part two does.
@@icaruskeyartist "Nessa. Dr. Dillamond. Fiyero. FIYERO! [...] Sure I meant well, but look at what well-meant did. Alright, enough! So be it! So be it, then. Let all of OZ be agreed: I'm WICKED! Through & through. Fiyero, in saving you, I promise No Good Deed will I attempt to do again. Ever again! No Good Deed. Will. I. Do. Again!" ~ Lyrics of _No Good Deed (Goes Unpunished)_
This isn’t about the movie it’s only about the play, as I said in the video the film handles in very very well, even the bit where she says things like ‘of course I’ll care for nessa’ has different nuances to it. The film sits very different to the play!
In the book, while Nessarose does reside in a wheelchair most of the time, she actually CAN walk, but struggles to because she has no arms due to a birth defect, leading her to struggle with balance. The silver slippers allow her to balance completely normally, and she even unsettles a lot of characters by often standing in odd or bizarre angles, because no matter what position she is in, the magic of the shoes keep her upright. She even uses that to her advantage when she becomes the ruler of Munchinland and basically becomes a tyrant in many senses of the word.
honestly this would probably have been a better idea for the film rather than to have to make the decision of "how do we ask this person who cannot stand, to stand? do we change the story, and risk the ire of the fans? do we get a body double?" etc etc etc
As much as I love Wicked it always bothered me what they do with Nessa. I love how Nessa is not ashamed about being in a wheelchair she just wants to be independent. I also love how the movie makes her have a beautiful and whimsical wheelchair.
Regarding Glinda and Boq: Glinda’s pity of Nessa is meant to be performative and shallow-this way, she comes off as a “good” person and gets Boq off her back (she avoids doing the true good thing of letting Boq down gently). And meanwhile, Boq has many chances to come clean to Nessa about why he asked her out, yet chooses to continue lying. It’s not entirely his fault that he becomes trapped to the extent of enslavement (as he is in Act/Part 2), but he also could’ve cut ties before that by telling Nessa the truth, accepting the anger she’d likely feel, and parting ways. So in that way, I didn’t feel Nessa was villainized until she became governor and abused that power. And those who have pitied her thus far have had narrative reasons for it, not just “oh this is how you SHOULD treat disabled people”
She is definitely pitied in my opinion, she’s called ‘tragically beautiful’ and her father makes her sister go with her to university to look after her. There is also a question as to why people thought pitying her was the ‘right’ thing to do… the whole thing is still icky to me even with that additional potential nuance.
@@DisabledEliza that's fair, though it's Madame Morrible who calls her "tragically beautiful", and she tends to be patronizing and manipulative in general (Glinda also calls her that, but I've addressed Glinda's motives in my original comment - she's not framed as kind for her words/actions, but rather performative). And their father pitying Nessa and tasking Elphaba with looking after her is largely due to him spoiling her because she's the "good" daughter (part of it is definitely "oh she's disabled", but it's also because she's the daughter who isn't an embarrassment to him)
100% agree the film improves how Nessa’s depicted. I remember the musical being severely troublesome in how Nessa is portrayed and I think the movie treats the subject of ableism a LOT more sensitively.
as an able bodied person, i never thought much about how we don't see disabled actors. it is really bizarre, since disabled people represent such a big portion of society, and that number will only grow as population ages. i think wicked is doing something really subversive, which is not at all what i expected from this production
I have an invisible physical disability and a learning disability (if you are wondering its 22q and fixed scoliosis I got the surgery at 12 i am now 16) Though i am not a wheelchair user, i deeply related to Nessa, in wanting to be independent and starting her own story, i know other kids like me have it worse but i smiled seeing a character i related to even though i didn't have the same thing as her, but a lot of the ways people treated her in the movie people have treated me before. I don't want to be pitied or babied i want to be seen as a normal human being. life is difficult and lonely I don't even know if I'll actually graduate and go to college on my own fully, i have to work 10x harder than the average person but I'm working towards a future where i can be fully independent and living on my own :) I've always wanted to see a character with the same disablitiy as me and though this hasnt happened yet because we are a very small minoirty not even 1% of the population (about 4,000 of us across the world) seeing her made me smile more than it should have :)
I've been wondering how they'll approach Nessa's plotline in part 2, and I feel like probably the best thing to do would be to show her anger as being specifically at how she's treated for being disabled, the being belittled and infantilized and so on, and then Elphaba's "curing" her would be portrayed as more of a well-meant mistake that fails to bring Nessa the autonomy she seeks. I don't think they'd stray too far from the established story, but I do think there could be some interesting nuances.
Very potential! Or maybe it’ll only be a short term thing that she is able to walk, or maybe they will change it even more! I guess we will find out in a year!
They already set up in part 1 that what she truly wants is independence. Nessa loves elphaba but wants to make her own story, and she is tired of people always trying to "help" and "protect" her. I bet she'll get a different power that better illustrates this in part 2 without relying on the old walking narrative.
In my high school’s production of The Little Mermaid Prince Eric was a wheelchair user and it made the story so much better tbh. Made it more of a story of accepting who you are and loving your partner for who they are.
I’m not a wheelchair user, however I am disabled and honestly this film did so much right I actually cried. The scene where Elphaba dances for the first time as she tries to socialize actually brought tears to my eyes. I’ve tried doing this so many times. But I never had a Glinda to support me like that. I didn’t think I’d like this film as much as I did but this rep really scored a whole lotta points in my book.
I haven't seen the stage show but I appreciated how the movie directed the ickiness onto the characters who were being ableist instead of onto Nessa. I'm excited to see what happens in part 2!
I appreciate how her role plays into the good vs evil, like Elphaba and Glinda, more so in the movie. Elphaba has always been oppressed by society which helped her seek compassion for animals and influenced her good nature, while Glinda has always tried to mold herself into this perfect image which influenced her selfish nature. Nessarose was probably bullied by others, like Elphaba, for being seen as different, but in the end that made her selfish like Glinda. Which honestly makes sense cause Elphaba's and Nessa's dad coddled her, so she's probably used to seeing things her way. *Spoiler for Act 2* Since their dad dies of a heart attack after seeing Elphaba become a "villain," I hope that is the motivation for Nessa becoming a wicked witch. Maybe her mourning her dad is what drove her to madness, similar to Elphaba when Nessa dies.
I thought the reason she became a villain was more in an attempt to keep Boq close to her? Nessa was removing munchkin rights just so Boq had to stay near her because she’d gotten possessive of him, and she spirals hard once he tries to leave, nearly killing him. I know there were definitely ableist parts mixed in but I’d never seen the motive as being just because she was in a wheelchair?
I'm pretty sure that Nessa x Boq plot is not showing that a person with a wheelchair is trapping him but that Nessa is self centred and manipulative, which is a set up for a reason why Munchkins were glad she got killed by a house
@DisabledEliza idk you kinda sound like you think that disabled characters should have less personality traits and be only portrayed as good, perfect people and not have bad traits that have nothing to do with their disability
No I don’t want characters to lean into the heavy stereotypes that exist, considering good disability representation in media is very very difficult to find I could literally count the examples on ones hand
Personally I like the story of nessa, because her bitterness and desire to be like everyone else runs parallel to Elphaba's story of self acceptance. Yes there is a problem of disabled people always being portrayed that way, but it's a problem with media in general rather than Wicked specifically, and I believe the solution is to have more stories with disabled people content and happy with their lives rather than changing the existing representation.
My memory of Nessa's character in the book (I read it near when it came out, so over 20 years ago) is that she is portrayed as a burden on Elphaba because of her personality much more than her disability. She has grown up completely spoiled because of their messed up family dynamics, and so she is selfish and demanding. I remember seeing the play for the first time and being shocked at her portrayal--I had remembered her as basically a villain in the book, but on stage she had been sanitized out of recognition. My hunch is that the creators of the musical had to have a reason for some of the plotlines that relied on her nastiness in the book and they unwisely and unkindly shoved it onto her disability in order to keep her a "nice" character for the family-friendly musical. But now I want to go back and read the book again and see if my hunches on this are correct! My younger sister is disabled and we've always been really close, so I think I would have picked up on the ickiness you're talking about if it had been in the book. I definitely noticed it in the musical.
I am not a wheelchair user but I am autistic and I agree with you that having a disability, I just want to be accepted for just being a person and also not seen as being a burden. A former caregiver emotionally and verbally abused me once I became an adult and one of the many horrible things she would say to me is how much she hated me because she “gave up so much” to take care of me and that it was my fault she was so miserable and single. She actually screamed at me how it was my fault she wasn’t happily married to a boyfriend she had when I was five and had kids with him and that emotionally shattered me. Her fiancé saw how upset this made me and called her out for it and this woman had the audacity to use my autism as an excuse for her behavior and claimed that it made me “misunderstand” what she meant and that she wasn’t angry. I knew this was a lie but I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to make her angry and have her hit me for “talking back” to her. It felt so insulting and patronizing that she thought me being autistic meant that I was so stupid that I couldn’t tell the difference between tone of voices and when someone is saying something really cruel in an attempt to hurt me. She made me feel like I was a burden for so long that I actually felt guilty that my sister sacrificed her teen social life to watch me on the weekends and that she resented me because of it. I now know that isn’t true but feeling like I was a burden on the world really affected my mental state and self esteem.
haven't watched the whole video yet, and I'm disabled but am not a wheelchair user but: when i went to watch the movie again today, i ended up seeing another wheelchair user besides nessa!! they were an ozian in one short day and you can see them during the story of the wise ones. it's nice to see them cast wheelchair users outside of the one named character to fill the world with more types of people it's so nice to see disabled rep played/written by those with the disability as it brings a lot more nuance to the role.. like nessa, i think a notable bad autistic rep is the good doctor imo lol
Yess I saw that and i was beaming!! Having a wheelchair user just in Oz felt great! Haha oh yes the good doctor I’m autistic but I haven’t seen it however everyone talks about how bad it is haha xx
@@kino9643 Hopefully, that means we can get traditional Munchkins alongside the Ethan Slater-inspired ones when _The Wizard of OZ_ proper plotline takes effect.
As an able bodied person attempting to write a wheelchair user, finding your channel has been an absolute blessing, and absolutely the resource I’ve been looking for! I had no idea it might feel “ick” to attempt writing a character who didn’t like needing their chair I’m not completely sure if how I’ve written my character qualifies as “hates needing her chair”, but I’ll definitely be shifting a few character traits around. I’ll also look for someone in the wheelchair community to test read the story, to get their input, when I get to that stage (I only just recently started my first draft so it’ll be a while). I’m sorry this comment has nothing to do with Wicked I just got super excited about your channel
Hi! This video got recommended to me and I just wanted to share my thoughts. First of all, it's been a long time since I saw the musical, but I do remember the basic plot. I absolutely love Marissa Bode's portrayal, I think she's wonderful. The whole Boq storyline makes me feel very icked out, just the idea that he's going with her as a second option and DOES feel sorry for her is wild, but it's so indicative of real ableism that people face. That being said, the second half I have mixed feelings about and feel I can't articulate well. While I do understand the "miracle walking" trope is a thing in media, it would be nice to change it in Part 2. I know the Wicked purists won't be happy about that, but if it lessens the ableism to a degree, I see that as good. I myself am somewhat of a purist for this show - even though I'm disabled and a wheelchair user myself - but even I can think of ways around this to make it inclusive. For example, what if Nessa levitates out of her chair and treads the air if it is possible? That would be more of a zero gravity thing and harkening back to her chair levitating in the movie, without being like "oh, she's walking guys!" It would be the same sort of beat, but not like a curing moment, and she could protest the entire time this happens, knowing that she doesn't want this change, whereby Boq sees that and acts cruelly still. IDK, I'm more icked out by the presumably abled people in the comments making excuses for why it can't be changed. That being said, I feel like so many of these characters are morally grey, and I feel like Boq leaving Nessa as soon as she can walk is just an indicator of that, same as Nessa trying to get him to stay with her. No one is either completely good or evil in Wicked, and that's what I think is so interesting about it, however I'm really excited to see what Marissa has consulted on and reworked. I think it's good that they are actually listening to the disabled community. It makes ME feel seen as a viewer. ❤
Definitely agree with everything you have said!! I am soo interested to see how they do it! Even if just means changing the nuances around it, for example in the film nessa isn’t saying how much she hates her disability all the time! I really love Marissa and I trust she will do an amazing job!! Haha yeah ofc all those non disabled people are determined to say I’m wrong! Classic when talking about this online haha xx
In the book, Nessa was born without arms and had to use the wheelchair because apparently she couldn’t balance. I assume they changed it because it would be quite difficult to find actors without arms
I'm curious how the second-half of the adaptation will handle that change. Nessarose walking again always bothered me (even as an able-bodied individual who has other disabilities), but her cursing Boq is important to his transformation into The Tin Man.
We don’t know! It might be that she can fly it might be bow just confesses his love, it might just be that they change the nuance around it so it’s not just ‘omg that’s so great you can walk’ but more ‘oh that happened?’
@@fairyorb4585 Sure, but it'd still have to end with Boq getting curse and being turned into The Tin Man to save his life. Otherwise the song about killing Elphaba wouldn't make sense.
Loved the movie! I read that Marissa Bode also made the change to have Nessa's backpack hanging from the back of her chair, instead of sitting on her lap like in the musical. Representation matters for so many reasons, but especially because a wheelchair user finally being cast in Nessa's role means that the story benefits from the realism and experience that Marissa brings!
Ok here we go lol. So I’m not a wheelchair user but I am disabled (my pancreas doesn’t work. So I have multiple devices hooked up to me allowing me to eat and keeping me alive essentially). So my disabled experience is different from a wheelchair user’s. However, from a general disabled perspective, I think the thing that abled bodied people miss the mark on when writing disabled characters, like Nessa, as always wanting to not be disabled any more is not that we don’t think about that, but that’s not an ever day struggle we have. I would love to be cured, but I’m not sitting at home being upset about that all the time. The daily things that are upsetting are the cost of my medical treatment, people being uneducated, and a whole bunch of little things concerning how society treats my condition. If someone says something uneducated I don’t think: wow I wish I wasn’t disabled because then people wouldn’t say that. I think: wow I wish people were more educated and thought a little harder before they spoke. I can’t be cured right now, it’s just not possible, but able bodied people can change their attitude and society can become more accommodating. So why would I be upset about something not existing more than a very achievable thing not happening because of a lack of trying? So yes, for me personally, there is a general wish for a cure, but the daily struggles that come from how society treats and views my disability are much more prevalent and pressing to me on average, and I think able bodied people totally miss that a lot of times with disabled characters. (I want to say that my disability is actively life threatening but not all disabilities are. People with non life threatening disabilities might feel differently about being “cured” and that’s totally and completely valid!)
i didn't know anything about Wicked before seeing the movie just recently which is probably extremely controversial. I found myself reflecting on how the writing seemed to be assigning ableist attitudes to Glinda and her minions as a part of showing their "true colors", like highlighting the ridiculousness of ableist attitudes almost?
The film was my first time actually watching wicked. It’s one of those musicals I’ve always wanted to get into, but have never really found the time. And I’ve seen past discussions, including those surrounding Nessa. And I really was happy and surprised with how her character was handled in the movie! The movie all around was delightful, I’m very happy with this first half of the movie so far and I’m excited for how they work around the second act.
I'm super excited to see how the wicked witch of the east reveal is going to be with Marissa's input! I think with the film budget and the film media itself, this truly is the perfect time to make an adjustment that isn't so ableist. They could do something very creative there and I don't know what it will be. I just hope it will be something surprising and empowering. Which would make reworking and visualizing the change for the stage even easier.
It’s funny how where you are when you consume a story impacts your feelings. I first saw Wicked when I was 17 and increasingly ill. My high honor choir went to nationals and we got to see it in Chicago. I was already passing out from sudden pain flares during practice and performances. It was the only class I went to in all of high school because I was too ill to attend; ton of pain, no energy, no focus. I fought like hell to go to choir. But… the students had made a rumor that maybe my I’ll health was from an STD or something and no one would sit by me. There were spaces next to me, always. The popular girl hated me (we were both the only alto 2s). So everyone was really horrible to me when she was around, or anyone who might report to her. I’d been sick since I was 12, but it was just so bad at this point. So was watching the play, with THESE PEOPLE, and I cried, a lot. It was wild that they all identified with Elphaba when they were being so heartless. I identified with Elphie because I was different, but with Nessa, because I truly hated how sick I was and how much of a burden I felt I was (my parents had to come on the trip and help me with my meds and make me rest instead of sight seeing and stuff). I’ve been sick ever since, and sometimes bedbound for years. But it’s part of why I’m kind. It’s a main reason why I’m so resilient. It’s just part of me. I feel like Nessa would have hit me differently if I first encountered her now.
One of my best friends from college is a wheelchair user and your sentiments about wanting accessibility, not pity are similar to how she talked about living with her disability (especially given the numerous accessibility issues she ran into on our campus and around the city). I think that’s also why it was gratifying to see Nessa in the film saying no when her father and the staff at Shiz insisted that she be pushed around and have everything taken care of for her. It was nice to see a Nessa who wanted to do things for herself and to see that at least Elphaba understood and respected that
loved your review, especially through the lens of being a wheelchair user! i found your perspective really valuable in synthesizing my own opinion of the film's presentation of disability. the treatment of nessa's character in the original stage show has always been one of its biggest flaws to me (for all of the reasons you mentioned in your video), but seeing how they've handled this adaptation so far gives me hope for what they do with her in part 2. i'm so sorry about the people being awful in your comments; it just goes to show how ableism is normalized even in the more progressive spaces of theater and entertainment.
Thank you so much for this! I really don’t understand why people would be so annoyed with me for literally saying that a character makes me uncomfortable but I love the show haha I definitely agree with everything you said! I’m so pleased to see the film change this icky storyline in the future ❤️
I'm an aspiring Screenwriter who happens to be disabled. I'm currently working on a pilot for a fantasy show about a disabled mother. I keep having my doubts, thinking it's not "marketable" or that "no one will want to see it", but I know I'm my heart that it NEEDS to be written. Seeing Wicked and the response it's gotten from the disabled community has given me so much hope in my story. Guess I better go finish writing it now!
Read the Book that the musical and film are based on before making large judgements about the creators. Nessarose in the book is born Armless and has no balance which is why she has trouble walking and getting around without a wheel chair. For the musical its hard to do a musical and have one of your main characters armless, so instead they made her paralyzed until her sister does a spell which in the book was Glinda to her Silver Shoes to help her walk straighter and not need help getting around. I understand that people are different, but there are reasons why Maguire and the writers of the show, did what they did for the story which is a prequel to Wizard of Oz. And Nessa due to her being born a normal color even with her being in a wheel chair or having no arms, she was more seen and excepted then her older sister, so I don't see how that's enabling and problematic for the character. And the actress in the film has stated that they wanted the films Nesserose to be less angry, and less witchy and religious and treat her circumstances like she just wants to go to school and be with everyone else. And having the other people around her treat her like she cant do anything especially when its in a time period of fantasy that is 1800's and not up-to-date. that's what people did to those who were different and have physical problems. I don't see the show or the film or the book being or doing anything wrong, plus its fiction, in the Baum books the Witch of the East walked and had two arms. I'm a big Oz fan and know what I'm talking about when it comes to The World and character of the Wizard of Oz and its world. They handled it in the film much better cause they worked with the actress playing Nessa, and created and made her more well rounded, and much more likable then in the Broadway play, where she's kind of a B, and in the book shes very religious and full of herself just like her religious reverend father.
Are you a wheelchair user? as I stated it might be fiction but the the show leans heavily into many many many ableist stereotypes. I’ve already read the book BUT most people who watch the show haven’t and it’s been heavily adapted. Once again here are all the ableist stereotypes that it leans into (some of which are in your comment) in the show: 1: she hates her disability 2: she is bitter and mean, you even call her a ‘b’ in your comment, the bitter disabled person is a harmful trope 3: Boq is trapped in a relationship with her and asks to leave as soon as she is healed, which is another stereotypical idea that people hate dating us because we are disabled 4: she is pitied by characters, including Elphaba feeling guilt around nessa being disabled and ‘caring for her’ at university 5: she is EVIL, you will notice how the media demonises disabled people as ‘lazy’ ‘get them back to work’ and if you notice the majority of disability representation that we have are call characters. For your point on the film, I absolutely promise you it’s a very accurate representation of how people treat wheelchair users today, particularly women of fem presenting people, thinking we can’t do anything, surprised if we drive, have a partner, have a baby, push our wheelchairs without permission, want independence but the world will put in barriers to make that impossible like working but then demonises us when we can’t work because they don’t make it accessible. Just last week the exact thing that happens to nessa in the film happened to me in person. It might ‘just’ be fiction but fiction runs parallel to our world and if we had 100000 pieces of good disability stories to watch and this one was bad it would be less of an issue, BUT the vast majority of media falls into these harmful stereotypes and nessas story in the show is icky for the vast majority for wheelchair users I’ve spoken to and you (if you are a wheelchair user) may be fine with it, but that doesn’t change the fact that many many many of us aren’t fine with it. Marissa has allowed real disability representation and even put in moment that happen to wheelchair users regularly like being pushed without permission (which happened to me recently) and being told we can’t be independent like going to university.
@@DisabledElizaHow would you write a villain origin story for a wheelchair using villain that avoids tropes? (Preferably one that uses shoes as a symbol of story significance, but I'm guessing the very premise is ablist)
Even in the musical I love Nessa's storyline! It's sadly beautiful (beautifully sad?). I'm not a wheelchair user, but I do see myself in Nessa because I was born with what some people call an "invisible" disability. My balance is not great at all and I can't go up or down staircases if they don't have handrails. I was over the moon when I found out that Nessa was going to be played by an actual disabled actress for the first time AND that the set was made completely accesible for her! I can't wait to see what Marissa comes up with for Nessa's future. I kinda hope she has a happy ending. Actually, I hope the movie as a whole has a happy ending because I HATE the way the musical ends.
@@tahraethestoryteller6079 she also becomes a narcissist in the second act and i hate that and the fact that gets to walk as if being disabled was bad was also an annoying choice.. Hope movie fixes it
@@forest1605 The movie won't change much because it has to abide by OZ canon lore (at least, in terms of the 1939 MGM film, in terms of Dorothy's perception), which means Nessa has to become a tyrant & get flattened by a house.
im not against making the story a bit more nuanced, but i do have to wonder how they can really handle act 2 while keeping the core the same. I mean, for the extent of the connective and referential material between wicked and wizard of oz, it might be a bit harder to make audiences believe the house crushing leaving only the legs and shoes if they dont find some excuse to make the magic of "standing", but on the flip side, an adjustment to the story can VERY easily add even more fuel to "no good deed". We still need the wicked witch of the east to appear, and tinman is going to be very hard to "redeem" in the context of how he played a role in the creation of the witch of the east, but maybe some slight tweaking about the motivation behind the magic... Making elphaba's "gift" a more explicit curse doesnt really align with the changes we already see to make it less of a doting relationship. Act 2 WAS rushed in the musical, though, so giving the story some more space to breathe leaves open the potential to REALLY dive into the wicked witch of the east and how that title was earned, which also means a potential character "growth" of coming to loathe the chair... I really am just spit balling here, though. i dont doubt they can fix it, i just dont see how the general beats can stay the same without really using the extra run time to create new story around her; i expect that it takes the creativity of exploring that extra time more than the adaption of the points directly shown in the musical. Speculating on how the extra time is spent is too broad to really narrow down the options, leaving me to look at only what has already been set up in part one and the broad strokes of the musical. I see it all boiling down to the tinman, again. If the tinman remains mostly unchanged from the musical, they wont have many options, but if the relationship is a bit more nuanced, maybe it can work. The musical's version of the tinman is very much a villain in their own right, but it also seems the movie wants to add a bit more depth to 'em.
@ilexdiapason yeah, i get it, but it is a catch 22. "boq" leaves no room for debate, but "tinman" can be more infuriating to connect the dots on. i went with "tinman" because there is at least a chance you dont connect the dots, but it isnt like this video itself avoids act 2 spoilers. No, i think the bigger spoiler with "tinman" is simply spelling out how dorothy's role in the story becomes more relevant in act 2, but that is the debate of hype and context more than spoilers; it isnt a hard assumption to make, but act 1 is just disconnected enough that it is hard to tell if the story will remain entirely a prequel or not... at least until the play opens with the death of the wicked witch of the west with the implication the story will explain everything up to that point.
A lot of people have talked about how Nessa's arc is pretty callous in the stage show, and how she's always played by able-bodied actors so they can have a couple of moments where she walks because of Elphaba trying to "fix" her. When I saw just how little insecurity Marissa played her with, at first I was thinking how different it was, before realizing "Oh yeah, why should she be mad? her turn in Act 2 is more about her feelings toward Elphaba and Mayor Thropp." Even if they still do some version of the walking scene, it can be done more like Elphaba overstepping her boundaries in desperation. Nessa doesn't *need* to hate being a chair user.
I loved hearing your take on this. I do wonder how they plan to change the Witch of the East scene in the second film. There are a lot of interpretations of that scene in the show, some better than others, but the way I personally see it is Nessa desperately trying to keep the one she loves and Boq clearly only staying with her out of pity. From what I’ve heard, this empty sympathy doting is something a lot of disabled people get - and hate. Then when Elphaba enchants her shoes, Boq thinks there’s no reason to stay with Nessa anymore because she doesn’t need help moving around anymore. He’s completely blind to the fact that she wants to actually *be* with him instead of just be helped by him. The fact that he was never honest about his reason for interacting with her doesn’t help either. And of course it’s another example of someone “helping” a disabled person to feel good about themselves. But that’s my take. Nessa deserves better no matter what.
I am not and never have been a wheelchair user but as a musical fan who has heard so much good about Wicked I was shocked when I saw it due to the ableism
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I quite liked the original Nessa. She was like a cautionary tale of what happens when disabled people are given physical independence but not mental independence. That doesn't make me any less excited to see how these changes go. I say this as a wheelchair user.
Non-disabled person here. In your opinion, do you think there's a way to adapt Elphaba enchanting the shoes to make her walk without it being ablest? I personally always liked that part, because I see the whole of Wicked as being sort of a puzzle piece meant to fit with the original Wizard of Oz, and the shoes being given that significance I thought set up Nessa's feet curling up under the house after Glinda removes them. Like, when the enchantment is taken away, it takes twice as much as it gave or something to that effect, thus the curling. And obviously the priority should be making the story more inclusive and less problematic, so if there's no way to rectify that plot point I'm in favor of it being changed, I'm just curious for other people's perspective.
While I understand several of the points you made in this video, there’s also some things that need to be addressed. And I say all of this with the utmost respect. I just want to give my two cents on the matter, for what it may be worth. First: The reason Nessarose is never portrayed by a disabled actress in the play is because she eventually has to stand up and walk in act II. There was another commenter who also mentioned this, as well. I’m very much aware that there are some wheelchair bound people who can actually walk for short periods of time. But I’ve seen Wicked four times on stage. The Wicked Witch of the East is one of my favorite scenes of the play and I like to dissect it as thoroughly as I can. In each one of those segments, the actress who played Nessa had to do some EXTREMELY exaggerated movements with her legs when she walks for the first time. Not to mention she has to fall over flat on her face, as well. I feel like this would put a lot of strain on an actual disabled actor and they also would have to do this two to three times EVERY day that they work. On top of that, with how popular Wicked is and how long it’s been running, that means there have been a lot of Nessas in its over twenty year lifespan. I’m curious as to how many available wheelchair bound actresses who can also sing to the specifications of the role are available. Maybe there’s more than I realize but the world of Broadway actors already seems so small as it is. Second: What’s interesting is that, in the original book by Gregory Maguire which is what the musical is based on, Nessarose is disabled in an entirely different way. Instead of being wheelchair bound she is born without arms. I think the creators of the show thought that it would be easier to go the route that they did instead of the source material and I completely agree. However, because they made these changes, that also meant that they had to rework her story of how she became the Wicked Witch of the East. While there are obvious problems that could be improved upon, I think they did the best that they could given the changes that had to be made. Third: No, I’m not disabled in anyway. So I can’t ever fully understand the thoughts and feelings of those who are on the subject of whether or not they wish they weren’t disabled. But, with that said, no one can deny that there ARE disabled people who feel that way. If you were to tell them that you had the ability to make them walk with just the snap of your fingers, they would take it in a heartbeat. That’s exactly how Nessarose is. So my personal opinion is that I don’t know why it’s such a horrendous and unbelievable thing to portray this perspective through a character. There are other disabled characters in media that have positive outlooks on their struggles and identities and that’s great! So that also means there shouldn’t be anything wrong with portraying the other side of the coin. Especially since there are disabled people who do think like that.
So we don’t say wheelchair bound we say wheelchair user, we aren’t bound to our chairs. Your first point: nope there are 1000000000% wheelchair users who can do the part and there isn’t any reason a wheelchair user isn’t cast. 2: I am very aware they made changes in from the book however the character literally leans into every disabled stereotype out there, she is bitter, she is evil, she wants to walk, she traps someone in a relationship. You will notice that most villains we see in media are disabled, they may be physically disabled like Captain Hook or have a facial difference like Voldemort. She is even described as ‘tragically beautiful’ which is also another stereotype ‘you’d be sooo pretty if it wasn’t for the CHAIR’ She’s deemed unlovable and boq only goes out with her to impress galinda and a weridddd pity thing No one is saying that wheelchair users can’t feel that way, but that stereotype put into a show is harmful because the reality is, most of us can’t be healed, ever and most of us know that and adapt to our lives, the whole focus on ‘healing’ doesn’t reflect how most of us exist 3: there is very very little good disability representation out there and the vast majority of characters aren’t played by wheelchair users. Artie from glee, character in superstore, me before you, atypical, the good doctor are all examples of non disabled people playing a disabled role. Until we have true equality in the space we need to point out harmful characters that lean verry heavily onto disability stereotypes and how harmful they can be and not come up with reasons to why they are not if they are not in a community you are part of ❤️ currently only 2% of actors that we seen on our screens are disabled with 1 in 4 people being disabled - that number doesn’t add up!
@@DisabledEliza Very insightful reply. Your responses make total sense. Thank you for the correction of wheelchair user, as well. With your last point I am genuinely curious and would like your honest opinion. It is egregious that there aren't more actual disabled people playing disabled roles in media, there's no doubt about that. But I wanted to know if you ever think there could be a situation where it might be necessary for a non-disabled person to play a role like that? Like how I mentioned above that there might not be a lot of wheel chair users who can sing to the specifications of the role on Broadway. Hypothetically, if it were true that there are not enough disabled people who can apply for this role for decades to come, would it be ok for abled people to take it? Or any other examples that aren't specifically the role of Nessarose? Since I'm not disabled, myself, I'd love to have input on this by people who are just out of curiosity.
If we lived in a world where disabled people were equally seen in society then maybe but atm no a non disabled person should never play the role of a disabled person. Disability is not a costume and the real life ableism that these characters face, we face every day and we can’t just ‘take off’ our disability. I don’t think that the conversation should be ‘will it ever be okay to play a disabled person’ but rather ‘how do we make this more accessible for disabled people’ 1/4 people are disabled so there are plenty of us to go round. Just make it accessible for us.
@@DisabledEliza That makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to respond back to my posts. Your answers have been very insightful! Regardless, I just hope and pray that they will do The Wicked Witch of the East scene justice whenever part 2 comes out. I'm sure they will based on how good part 1 is and I'm so excited to see it! ❤
I’m not a wheelchair user but I am disabled and I 100% agree with all of your points! While I would usually agree that we need to avoid all the disabled stereotypes shown in Wicked, they all have valid reasons in the plot so I don’t think it’s doing as much harm. Especially since it’s obvious (in my opinion) that the way others treat Nessa Rose is wrong. I fear the woman who made this video is just taking things a bit personally (which I totally understand!) and therefore is currently unable to think more critically on the subject of Nessa Rose
i'm excited to see how nessa's story in act 2 is done in the movie because on stage it was so weird to me how she turned into like a terrible person with seemingly no build up to it, i get she was not the nicest to elphaba before but idk as a disabled person with family members who baby me all the time i'd be embarrassed too when they do it in public
I think in Wicked Nessa wanting to not be disabled is like Elphaba, the society, I'm sure if people treated her normally she would be fine, but she gets treated different by her dad, by teachers, by other kids, where yeah, I doubt she would want to be disabled if it meant that you were never treated normally. Boq being the first one who treated her like a "normal person" besides her sister is probably the reason she fell for him so hard.
im someone who watched the movie adaptation before the musical, and a big difference i noticed that the movie helped point out to me was in the dance scene with Boq he dances TOGETHER with Nessa and doesnt use her as an accessory for his dance; so when i went home and watched a musical performance of it and saw him pushing her around to dance it made me feel weird. This was something that as someone who doesnt use a wheelchair never thought of. Just another reason why good representation is important so people like me can see how we SHOULD treat wheelchair users.
That's a wicked video through it efficiency, simplicity and inclusivity. Loved it (just discovered your channel thanks to it). The debate on whether or not the musical should be changed is acceptable through the lens of ableism if we keep records of the original play and script to remember where we come from. It has been ages since I have read the original Maguire Saga or seen the musical and I did not remember any of those parts about Nessa until you'd had. I was a bit worried that the film with its popularity "revisionned" the musical and that the musical was adapted to fit the screen version (with alledged new songs from the second movies, and vocal arrangements more based on cinthia than idina for exemple) but I must admit it can be good that the movie raise awareness on this issue. So the question is, should we adapt the musical or keep it as it is with the movie being complementary to it ? I don't know and I would love to have your opinions
In the us, there is The Penguin Project, a theater group that works to accommodate differently abled students in their cast. They have over 50 chapters, with cast members of a variety of conditions. My favorite personal story is watching the directing team accomodate a mostly-blind artist. They translated the entire script into Braille, altered choreo and blocking so he could use his cane, and added extra lines to his scenes, to help him orient based on the sound.
My local chapter also involves an artist with a muscular condition that means she can't walk for long. The directors made it a point to work with that, with her in her chair most of the show, and instructing her to stand up in the most pivotal scenes, when it makes the most impact. The choreographer also added dance sequences, which she could do using her chair.
she'd be able to do the scene in question over several takes, with breaks in between, and go at a pace that accommodates her comfort - something film is much more permissive of than the stage version can be - if they decide not to change it
Have you seen the play? I understand the need to battle ableism but Nessa is a horrible person! She is manipulative and basically imprisons Boq because she’s so jealous of Glinda. That has absolutely nothing to do with her being in a wheelchair, of course, but her character has a horrible character. Perhaps some feel vindicated, but I don’t think she represents the goodness of those who use wheelchairs.
Yes I have and yes all the things you have said in here are alllll ableist tropes. You’ll notice how a lot of villains in the world are disabled, Captain Hook for example or many have facial differences. I’m not suggesting she represents all wheelchair users but there is barely any rep at allll and that’s the issue!
I understand your point better now. I know that many negative characters and characteristics are associated with mental illnesses but I have always felt that characters with physical disabilities were portrayed as intellectually inferior more so than villains. I’ll pay better attention from now on. I know that Marlee Matlin said that less than 20% (or close to that) of characters with disabilities are played by similarly-abled actors. Correcting those things will require a lot of dedication and patience no matter what one’s profession or area of interest.
@@DisabledElizathere’s a difference. If a character is evil because they are in a wheelchair that’s a stereotype. If someone is veil and happens to be in a wheelchair it isn’t. Also, nessa was probably spoiled and had a screwed up mindset taught to her by her father like Glinda but way worse.
Is there a difference or is it just the same repackaged? Where is the Disney princesss in a wheelchair? Or with a limb difference? Where is the a massive superhero with a disability that is accurate and played by someone with that disability. It doesn’t exist. Tomato tomato
I noticed that the movie had a lot more emphasis on respecting Nessa's autonomy than the musical did. Was very happy to hear that Marissa is both actually a wheelchair user and that she got some input on how to improve her character. I'm excited to see how part 2 changes next year and I hope that they found a way to tell the story with more respect and compassion. Thank you for the video!
Hi! Not disabled here but I do love nuanced story telling. For part 2 I hope they keep the walking bit for Nessa, but instead of it being since she resented not being able to walk, have her anger be toward Elphaba who always helped but took away some of her personal independence, when she could have used magic to help her and give her independence rather than "help her" and take it away. A sorta of "If you wanted to help why didn't you heal me?" It removes some of the ableist self loathing and puts the anger as more of a you had a solution why didnt you use it it. Which feels like would work with the changes made in the film part 1.
I think that Nessa wanting to walk so badly and hating the fact that she is in a wheelchair makes a lot of sense. Like, when your whole life everyone tells you that you are broken and that something is wrong with you, you start to believe it. but! I think you made some good points and I think the movie handled it much better than the play
I’m not suggesting that she wouldn’t want to feel like that, I’m suggesting that she shouldn’t be written to what to feel like that if that makes sense! Xx
@@DisabledEliza I totally understand what you're saying! They also did something similar with elphaba and her green skin, but she eventually learns to accept that she's green (which unfortunately didn't happen with Nessa). I've always seen Nessa's arc as the opposite of elphaba's but I also see how it could be interpreted differently. I wonder if the creators planned it that way, maybe there's an interview about it somewhere
As an ambulatory wheelchair user we left wicked in london because Nessa was only a character for her wheelchair. She, as a person, could have been replaced by a potted plant who used a wheelchair and they could have told the damn story the same. Im glad to hear that the movie is apparently doing better but idk how i feel about seeing it yet
One thing I like about the movie version is that respect for Nessa's boundaries and autonomy is treated as vital, and characters who don't do that are framed explicitly as being in the wrong. A teacher trying to push her chair without consent is presented as a violation with serious repercussions, as it should be. There's also the fact that in the Ozdust dance scene, iirc Boq never touches Nessa's chair, he goes out of his way to dance with her directly and make her feel included. They can't change a huge amount about that storyline without rewriting that part of Dancing Through Life, but it was nice to see adjustments being made where they could.
I went to see wicked not knowing much about the original musical apart from the overall narrative and just from listening to defying gravity, so I was plesantly surprised to see elphaba's sister be a wheelchair user... and then was even more surprised to see her struggles seeking independance and elphaba knowing that and trying to give it to her. Im not really a wheel chair user but some could argue I am disabled (even if it feels weird to call my neurodivergence and debilitating anxiety that) but it gave me so much joy when she started to dance 😭 AND HER WHEELCHAIR IS SO CUTE. Im happy to find this video talking from the perspective of a wheelchair user, seeing all the comments from people in similar situations to nessa and how much it meant to them gives me such fuzzy feelings.
You should read the book “The Chance to Fly” by Ali Stroker and Stacy Davidowitz. It is about a teenage girl named Natalie, who is a wheelchair user, and is in a production of Wicked. It is (in my opinion) fantastic, and co-written by a wheelchair user.
It’s crazy that I don’t remember any of the ableism from when I watched the show around 6 years ago. I watched the film and assumed this was how Nessa always was. It sounds like they made positive changes! I think in part two she should make her wheelchair into a flying contraption of sorts, with a spell.
I loved how they included someone she didn't know trying to push her chair without asking and it triggers full defence mode in her sister. They clearly listened to the Actress because it's such an unpleasant and far too common experience for wheelchair users
As an able bodied person I always read Nessa as being a casualty of the oppressive system. She is a genuinely kind person but everyone around her treats her poorly because of one difference. She’s annoyed that she has to go through these tribulations just to exist until her nice older sister seemingly has access to a way out. She has been demeaned and looked down upon for her whole life. Her husband only asked her out because he wanted to impress a different girl (how messed up is that). Even if she’s told that it’s not a good idea, she takes the opportunity to escape from the hurt that has been inflicted on her her whole life.
I just want to say a few things about Nessa. First, in the original book, her disability isn't that she can't walk, but she has no arms. That's why she gets the shoes, because her feet are something she can accessorise on. I presume it's adapted to being unable to walk just because that's easier to cast on stage. Second (spoilers for Act 2), Nessa gets up and walks after the shoes are enchanted, which I think would be really difficult for most wheelchair users. This is a point I want to talk about further. I have no idea what they have planned for part 2, what other additional changes they might make. For film, they could actually simulate her walking through harnesses and wires, various other movie magic we've developed over the last 100 years or so. If they change this, and Nessa gets other magical abilities from her enchanted shoes, I'd be OK with it. It'll be different from the musical, but as I already mentioned, they changed Nessa from the book, so a little more change will be fine, so long as it stays in the theme. I'm kind of curious what they will do, if not give her the ability to walk.
I really liked the movie's version of Dancing Through Life; it felt like Nessa was actually dancing, whereas in the stage production I watched, she felt like just a prop for Boq to dance around
I haven't seen the musical. Watched the movie yesterday. Several things that stuck out to me: Nessa being talked about as "tragically beautiful"... In front of her face. Gave ne the ick so bad. Way too real. The library? Doesn't look super accessible. Had me wondering about the rest of the university. Both Nessa AND Elphaba agreeing that Nessa doesnvt need help when she hasn't asked for it was lovely And just being pushed by a stranger is terrifying so I support Elphaba's "outburst" Can't wait to see part 2 and what they changed As for the stageplay - the excuse one could come up with is that "they can't have a disabled actress play the role of Nessarose because she needs to walk in act 2". That is the excuse, but not much else. Change the script. They've already changed so much about the book, this is going to be minor in comparison. This comment had been brought to you by Typo Inc. Typo Inc - we'll ruin your grammar for you!
She's WAY less of a brat, gets along with and treates Elphaba better and you can understand her frustration with people seeing her especially her own father as helpless
They used non-disabled actors for the enchanted shoe scene but that doesn't make it better seeing Marissa being such great rep is fantastic and I'm actually curious on what gonna happen with those change to the scene. And there's that little gem that played baby Nessa who was in a wheelchair too double the rep! And I'm so envious you to see them live and see Marissa you even got her autograph
In partial defense of musical casting directors, if you've got a story in which the disabled character gets magically cured at some point, you do need an able-bodied character to play the role. This is only a partial defense, because there's no reason you couldn't cast disabled actors as characters who aren't wheelchair users in canon, and just have them be the same character with the same conflicts and story arc. The fact that they happen to need a wheelchair has no bearing on their characterization or the plot. In the books, Nessarose's disability is that she was born without arms, and the slippers just prevent her from stumbling because the lack of arms means she has poor balance. This tells you how little Gregory Maguire researched the disability, because I knew from a book I read in my teens that though it takes longer for kids born without arms to *learn* to walk, absent additional disabilities they have just as good balance as the able-bodied after mastering the skill. I read this book in the 1970s, but the book was published in 1955!
As I said in the video hope there are 100000% wheelchair users who can do that role, there are many of us who can walk, dance even run some of us so we can be cast ❤️ xx
I think the main issue is Wizard of Oz establishes the Wicked Witch's sister as someone who was evil and made the munchkins lives horrible. So Wicked always had to have that be the end goal with Nessa. Nessa being a wheelchair user was never written as a commentary on disabled people it was written because the person who wrote the wicked book wanted her to be two faced. And what better way to make a two faced character but by giving her sympathetic qualities. Qualities that people would look at her and go "wow look at all she had to endure". She was written to be in a wheelchair so people would feel sorry for her and she would use that to manipulate people into doing what she wanted. And this doesnt absolve the issue that this reinforces negative stereotypes that disabled people want attention and to be pitied. But I do think theres something to be said that Nessa's character was always less about the wheelchair and more about her being a narcissist who wants people to feel bad for her to manipulate them. Then once she has power she uses it so no one can leave her alone. And the main issue with this is most people watching the musical dont remember the munchkins in oz singing that the witch of east was a tyrant to them they only remember the witch of the west. So when they look at Nessa they dont think how shes going to inevitably end up making every munchkins life miserable. I think the concept makes sense. 2 Sisters who are different for 2 different reasons. 1 gets ridiculed and comes out a good person but the whole world except her best friend and lover end up against her. The other gets coddled by her rich family into getting whatever she wants and ends up developing intense narcissism that makes her actually a mean and vindictive person. They are not saying Nessa is a bad person because shes a wheelchair user. Shes a bad person because shes coddled and was never incentivized to do good things. The issue is purely execution. The play never really spends any time diving into Nessa so instead it looks like the show is saying "hey shes in a wheelchair pity her" when its meant to be showing how these 2 girls who both started lives with disadvantages from the same exact family lead completely opposite lives. Its such a shame that the musicals rushed plot makes Nessa fall flat and her portrayal so ableist. And the needing to stand thing is unnecessary you can have a narcissistic wheelchair user without making them magically able to stand it sends such a bad message to disabled people about needing to be "fixed". Disclaimer I have no physical disability this is just from a massive wicked fan who has overanalyzed the story enough to understand why nessa was written the way she was while also understanding how her portrayal comes off as ableist and wanted to dive a bit deeper into how this even happened.
I feel like... In regards to how act 2 is going to be done Elphaba (and Nessa) were told from the get-go that everything is Elphaba's fault. The death of their mother, the fact Nessa came prematurely which resulted in her need for wheelchair use. Nessa in the first movie is portrayed as struggling to be kind with her sister. You see clear love there, but also the desperate need to be independent and to be free of the "anchor" that is her sister Elphaba (even if Nessa would never admit that) It's easy and plain to see that Nessa holds complicated feelings towards her sister. I'm sure they only grow more complicated and poisoned after their father died due to the news about Elphaba. Maybe in act 2, the reason for her "walking" isn't because she wants to be cured Maybe there's dialogue instead of "It's your fault everything bad happens" it's possible that one of the things she lists for reasons is being unable to walk. Not because she wants to be cured or because she actually mourns not being able to. But because it was something drilled into her head since being a child and is just meant as an example. Then Elphaba mistakenly takes those words at face value and has always felt guilt about it anyways; so she tries to "cure" Nessa as Nessa tries to explain that's not what she was saying. But it's too late once a spell is cast, and the spells can't be undone. And it's yet another wrong Elphaba has done to her and another reason to resent her sister.
Besides the point- I just dont like Nessa because of her personality. She gives me spoiled brat vibes. I dont like how she treats Elphie. Just wait for part 2.
@DisabledEliza I saw the show last year and struggled through the first half because it was so different. Then I reminded myself that the show is fanfic and enjoyed it. I am still interested in how Nessa was written.
@@PrinAnieIt's not great. Both Thropp sisters are portrayed with an aspect of body horror I think. Nessarose may be described as beautiful but there is an element of grotesque, which like I said isn't great in terms of representation I would think. Once Galinda enchants her shoes it is downright eerie how her movement is described.
I also liked to see in the large muscial numbers that there are other dancers on the cast with wheelchairs. Like this is just a part of the world rather than nessa being the only one.
What cannot be expressed or explored in the condensed musical format is the idea of internalised ableism. Oz seems like the kind of society that would make Nessa feel wrong or deficient her whole life. You get a snippet of that mentality in the film when Glinda offers to help Elphaba with her ‘green problem’. But with Nessa you don’t get a lot of time to explore that the idea of wanting to be ‘normal’ was imprinted on her by both the pity and bullying she got all her life. I hope the second film does more to explore that, because someone in that kind of social and psychological hellscape might want nothing more to be normal - but I think you’d need time and the input of someone with authentic experience of being disabled to really portray that complexity well.
What makes Nessa's role in the stage musical so ick (beyond the ableism) is that it has always felt like a _"consolation role"_ to me. Having trained and worked in theatre and Musicals for 7 years, I've noticed that every actor (I know of) to be cast as Nessa Rose never really _audition_ for the role. In other words, it wasn't a role they were ever aiming for. Usually, it's those who don't get cast as Elphaba, but are considered too "good" to just be a soloist in the ensemble cast, that get cast in this role as a sort of "maybe next time..." That's why I'm so glad they cast a wheelchair user in the film. It's not a consolation; it's intentional! Not the biggest hit to ableism, but certainly a huge leap forward from the stage casting.
I actually was expecting boq and nessa to have more story ¿¿¿ like the actors said in interviews, i thought boq would have a connection or appreciation for nessa but not really loving her the way she wants, and maybe portray nessa as someone with intrusive thoughts and an evil side, make this voice of evil grow so then in part two when she casts the spell it makes more sense, cause after what happened to elphaba she just started acting in this irrational way and out of control, she doesn't have her sister or her dad and even though boq is honest about his feelings, she just affirms that he's all she has and cant lose him so she starts to act more depending on him even though shes capable of taking care of herself, she needs him to stay and needs to be sure he wont leave
I'm happy to hear Marissa had some part in the writing and that there will be changes to the second part, the first act was always more enjoyable to me so I that makes me look forward to the second part a lot more.
They will probably go with a situation where she flies or levitates instead, but it’s still a “fix-it” moment. Could they have her regret her choices at one point? Maybe but at the end of the day, though, she remains problematic for representation, as she fits all the stereotypical tropes of an evil disabled person who needs to die. On the other hand, this has inspired me to write my own story set in OZ where the character isn’t a villain or magically cured. I saw a comment where someone took their disabled son to see Wicked. They loved seeing Nessarose, but they had to leave out the part where Nessarose turns evil. Gosh, I hope the little ones won’t be too upset about that.
I’m thinking about how the first verse of the wicked witch of the east song would either be cut entirely or heavily rewritten to reflect the new characterization of nessarose and I tried to rewrite the lyrics (don’t expect it to be great) All of my life, I've been chained up with you How do you think that feels? All of my life, I've been pitied and judged Because of my chair with wheels Scrounging for scraps of respect to pick up And longing to free up my wheels
Once when i was out with my mum. This sales woman kept asking me everything. She just ignored my mum cause she was in a mobility buggy and assumed she was i dunno dumb or honestly ive no clue. It was all how can I help you, what are you looking for. My mum was looking for a dress and she told her. Back to me and what kind of dress is she looking for? Woman my mum just answered why are you still not adressing her. 🥺 My ma who is from Newcastle swore like a sailor and drove out the shop. 😂
iirc the choreo for Nessa in the musical as originally done generally *can't* be done by wheelchair users several nights a week (if someone knows more about this, please correct me if I am wrong)
I have spina bifida and walk with afo braces, sometimes use a mobility scooter. I love seeing ppl with disabilities being represented in movies/tv. If u havent seen it, watch the show Speechless. Played by actor with cp. btw, cute dogs!! I’m curious how things are now with accessibility in london? I visited there from LA in 2018 and found it difficult. Many tube stations without lifts and/or leveled platforms, some shops with only stairs.
Not much has changed since 2019 to be honest with you! Although we do now have the Elizabeth line which is all step free however it’s not really in an area that I use very often
The way Nessa is treated is why I can't really hate her the way a lot of fans do lol... Like, a lot of non disabled fans I think see how Nessa is treated and think she's being treated well???? but Nessa gets dehumanized just like Elphie does! They pity her and treat her like a burden. Like, it shows these two sisters are actually more alike that ppl think... Elphie gets bullied and shunned in a more aggressive way, she doesn't have any friends... but Nessa doesn't have friends either. everyone ignores her if theyre not yapping about how ~tragic~ she is. Elphaba mentions that the Oz Dust was the first party she's ever been to, Nessa says "Finally I'm about to have a fun night" when Boq asks her to the dance. Galinda picked Nessa as the one Boq would ask knowing that nobody else would have asked her. The governor treats Elphie like garbage and then he totally *babies* Nessa to the degree that I'm sure that even if she had friends, Nessa probably wouldn't have even been allowed to hang out with them often. Like... Nessarose at the start honestly wasn't given the agency to be either Wicked or Good to begin with lol. The film does a good job of expanding on her character while still being faithful to the stage (one thing i noticed was she looked so conflicted and sad when they mock Elphie at the ball, even if she doesn't have it in her to help her, her showing sympathy for Elphie makes Elphie's love for HER feel stronger as well), and her just being allowed to react and get annoyed by the people pitying her makes her anger and resentment feel more natural. Also if Boq has no haters I'm dead
Ooo I have no idea!! I literally might just be that they change the nuances around how she feels about it? As that’s very much been changes in the play, it might be that boq isn’t like ‘right in off’ as soon as she can walk again, not sure! It might be that she doesn’t walk at all and has another form of flying apparatus! We willl have to wait and see haha!
@DisabledEliza OOOooo what if the shoes are enchanted as a protection spell? So if she loses them after the house landing on her, it removes the possibility of her surviving it! In the wizard of Oz, the shoes are protected from the wicked witch. Wondering if they can only be given by a witch in order to be protected by that witch's enchantment? 🤔
![Disabled person reacts to BAD Disability representation in the media... [CC]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/czSUvEjRozk/mqdefault.jpg)
i think Galinda saying "the one in the chair" is intentionally icky to point out her fake sympathy bc she was just trying to avoid Boq
Maybe that exact line, however she is heavily pitted throughout by various characters
@@DisabledElizawhich is the point isnt it? People saying she's "tragic" and treating her differently because of her chair is supposed to be icky. The musical says a lot about social dynamics, mob mentality, tolerance, internalized discrimination and fake kindness/acceptance; and this is one of the examples. This could also be why Nessa in the musical wishes she isnt disabled-- not because of the disability itself but because of how people treat her. Like Elphie, she wanted people to treat her as they would other people and the only solution in her mind is to change herself. However, unlike Elphie, she is fixated on that want and so is compliant to what people expect from her and bemoans her circumstances; whereas Elphie finds a different route to foster acceptance without being "de-greenified" (because she realized it is not her that is the problem, but the people around her).
But anyway, thats just my theory. It has been a long while since I've seen the musical so I'm just basing it off of what you said in the video (and the soundtrack and the movie)
@@Missed_V it's not a theory, you hit the nail on the head
@@Missed_V A brilliant explanation.
@@DisabledElizawhat infuriates me is that they removed dwarf actors from playing the munchkins. It could have given so many of them jobs and with Boq being a main character it could’ve allowed the munchkins to be more fleshed out. The director said he wanted the munchkins to be a culture rather than a race (weird argument) but then still referenced munchkins being short several times in the movie. For all their attempts to be progressive towards wheelchair users, their erasure of dwarves from the story is completely reductive and ableist.
Someone said something I find interesting. While some characters may infantilize Nessa, the narrative doesn't. I quite like that when Elphaba's powers flare up, she doesn't bring Nessa to her, but into the air where nobody can touch her. Very curious to see how things play out come Part 2.
They said they will change the "being fixed" thing
@@MNCMN345 That IS good to hear. However, I DO recall the Witch Of The East being ablebodied. Then again, the original Witch of the West wasn't played by a black woman, so, I guess we'll have to see how things play out.
@@shadowldragoIsn't she just a pair of legs under a house originally? That tells us nothing about her mobility
@@shadowldrago In _Wicked_ Nessa is born without arms in the novel, but is a parapelegic in a wheelchair in the musical/film adaptation.
I did like that the big trigger was a condescending person grabbing Nessa’s chair to “help” her when she didn’t ask and didn’t want or need help. I like that with a movie lens the actress could express the kind of affront and annoyance this is, because a lot of fully ambulatory people without chair using peers don’t realize how jarring it is to do that.
I’m a wheelchair user, and I’ve got a very protective big sister (who I went to see Wicked with 20 years ago) and we had such a moment in the movie theatre this week both when Elphaba had her moment of _Leave her alone_ and when Boq has the _F it, let’s dance!_ moment and the dancing is exactly how I’d dance, and you can tell that this is a real wheelchair user really dancing her heart out. Not much else in the film got me teary eyed, but that did. Pure joy, really.
That’s so so lovely ❤️
So how are you going to react to her doing at least a couple of dance routines in part two?
@ I mean the actress is a wheelchair user in real life and will be performing the role in part two as well, so I doubt she’s going to be high kicking and flipping. When she saw _Wicked_ as a child, she has said she was elated to see a wheelchair user on stage, wondering if the actress was really in a wheelchair, and a little devastated (at age 11, mind) when she was magically fixed - when she _BEGGED to be magically fixed_ - because Marissa didn’t feel so terribly broken, she was just Marissa, and I get that. So with the agency the actresses are being given, I expect the shoes will come with a cost in the same way using a mundane mobility aide will, i.e. pain, exhaustion, etc.
Hell, I can do a nice slow partner dance myself-it’s not going to break my heart to see Marissa throw out a few moves!
As a disabled person seeing so many wheelchairs with actually disabled actors brought tears to my eyes and made me happy we finally get something after all these years.
I know it’s so joyful and Marissa is wonderful!
Also in the movie the 3 wheelchair users mention nothing about hating their disability and are quite confident with it
Yeah I really like it!! Such a refreshing change! Xx
@@DisabledElizathe actress who played nessarose is being attacked for her disability basically mirroring everyone at shiz who was being rude to the character
Yes I saw this! Also people are annoyed about nessas existence!
Not to disavow anything you said, but I think the ickiness is the point. Elphaba was ridiculed so much for have green skin that she grew to despise it. Nessa was babied so much for her disability, that she grew to hate it. While it's a problem that those two hate themselves, the real ickiness is that other people _made_ them hate themselves.
Elphaba learning to accept herself came when Glinda _finally_ gave her a chance and included her. Contrasted with Nessa who _thought_ she got that too, only to come to the heartbreaking realization that she was once again being pitied because she's in a wheelchair.
And this culiminates with the person who felt powerless her whole life gaining power and in turn, making others feel powerless. Which flows beautifully to her getting to walk for the first time.
She was so convinced that her disability was the only thing wrong with her. That once she was "healed" everything would just get better. Boq would love her along with everyone else. But that obviously wasn't the case. It wasn't the disability. Never was. She just knew bad people and allowed them to turn her into a bad person.
She could have become a good governesses after her father died, but she didn't. She believed she treated them as they deserved. She could have found someone else who truly loved her, but she didn't. She believed Boq was the best she could get. She could have learned to love and accept herself, but she didn't. She thought her disability was the only thing wrong with her.
The ickiness is the point. The ickiness is the tragedy. I'm not sure how they're gonna change it in the movie, but I think it's important they keep Nessa walking. It just fits with her character and the theme.
I think if a story is designed to be based of heavy ableism it’s still icky, even if the whole intention was to be ableist as you’ve listed many many disability stereotypes 😅
@DisabledEliza That's a valid feeling though I wouldn't exactly call it a fair criticism to the story as a whole. Ozians _are_ ablist. Ozians _are_ racist. And I guess speciest towards Animals, but that was a clear racial allegory so I'm grouping their treatment with Elphaba. Don't judge a book by its cover is the core theme. But all 3 are being judged.
They are being stereotyped. They don't get to be normal people. Elphaba is wicked because she's green. Nessa is a burden because she's disabled. Dr. Dillamond is caged because he's an Animal. And he experiences a legitimate Hate Crime. It's stereotypical to have someone write a hateful message for him to see. It's cliche for Elphaba to want to change the color of her skin due to prejudice. And it's stereotypical Nessa believes her disability makes her less than.
Neither their treatment or the conclusions they reach due to it is portrayed in a good light. Elphaba wanting Oz to degreenify her isn't seen as a good thing. Just sad. Even when she has the opportunity to ask him, the very request feels wrong. Like it was so small compared to the real issues. That Elphaba can just be green in Oz and use her power to actually do some good.
Dr. Dillamond losing his ability to speak is portrayed as something horrific. A robbing of what makes him, him. Nessa gaining the ability to walk isn't a joyous scene. It's frantic, grungy, wrong. In contrast with Elphaba, the first thing she does with her newfound power is something bad. And she's actively punished for it by Boq immediately wanting to leave. Nothing good came from her becoming abled because their was nothing _wrong_ with her being disabled. It was all her.
@@DisabledEliza Hard disagree, if done properly, the ickiness HAS to be involved in order for it to work. Especially in the world of Oz where animals are getting fucked over.
you think she'll be a bad governor in part 2 because she started to realise that earlier? That's the feeling I got from watching the movie, they cut the 'it's me that's not right' line and just had her stare and Boq as he cheered for Glinda before wheeling away. I mean, did she realise that Boq liked Glinda without being told and that that's why she became a tyrant afterwards? I don't think they can change that plot line in part 2 even if they change some of the details.
She was glaring so much listening to the radio broadcast in the final scene I began to wonder if she was the one causing her father to have a heart attack.
But that was mostly because I was hoping they'd show her having powers in the first part of the movie because I realised it didn't make sense that she would be able to even guess at what the Grimmie was saying to mispronounce the words and that it would have any effect at all since she's shown no sign of having any magic at all in act 1.
If she got so angry that she caused him to have a heart attack because she got so fed up with being infantilised when she wasn't being overlooked that she attacked the person who treated her like a child the most then it would make more sense.
I loved that the way Nessa was treated problematically by some of the characters played into the theme of the appearance of goodness versus actually doing good. The filmmakers framed how Glinda and that one teacher treated her as cringeworthy. Even just the “don’t touch my chair” bit really got to me, like yes, exactly!
I don’t know how much ableism will play into Part 2. I want her to become a villain but I’m so afraid her motivation will still be as you described.
But honestly I’m going into it as at least a partial win, like how I view the Fourth Wing book series. The content is problematic, but having a disabled person as a key character in a big fantasy franchise opens up studio executives and publishers to accept more stories with disabled characters from disabled performers and/or writers.
Yes I felt the exact same in the film! It feels so much more genuine and that’s really just credit to Marissa for putting th work in! I’m really interested to see what part 2 will be like and hopeful for a positive change!
It does make the Wicked Witch of the East song more poignant, in a way. The bit about depending on Elphaba her whole life.
@ I’m going to respectfully disagree. I think it’s written from a very non-disabled lens of someone in a wheelchair being completely dependent on another person, Even if fully paralyzed there’s a lot of things that can be done or learned to do independently, just maybe not certain inclines or some non-transferable places. And it places someone in a wheelchair as automatically needing help, like Elphaba should have first thought of Nessarose needing to be saved because of her circumstances.
Wicked is still my favorite musical despite all of this. I’m probably gonna hodgepodge my way into a Nessa costume for Halloween. Maybe if there were more layered roles for wheelchair users this specific incident would feel like a point-of-view, but it’s the same narrow idea again and again in movies and other media.
Who's the disabled character in Fourth Wing? Violet for her weak joints?
@ Violet is supposed to have EDS like her author. So it’s more than weak joints. It can affect bones, cartilage, skin, blood, fat, muscles, so many things. Easily bruising, heart rhythm problems, muscle weakness, fragile joints, double joints, hyper-mobile joints. It can develop into broken blood vessels, fatigue, difficulty concentrating, being injured all the time, internal bleeding, stroke.
I don’t think the author wrote that as clearly as it should have been. And I also wish that there was hypermobility so there would be more than just something to overcome, like that could have been how she stayed on the bridge, how she avoided attacks. But I don’t know how the series is planned, if she gets out of the “I can’t ever be weak, or I’m a failure” kind of mentality.
One of my ideas for adapting her plot in part 2 is that she’s aware of Boq having feelings for Glinda instead of her so the spell would be a ‘make them what they desire’ type of spell where it makes her look like Glinda (blonde hair, pink dress, even making the shoes red) but still be in the chair. When Boq comes in he isn’t having any of it and would essentially say he’d rather have the real Glinda instead of an imitation. This is what would cause Nessa to do the spell.
Ooo yes I love this idea!!
AWESOME
@@DisabledEliza So you want Marissa to be replaced by Ariana for half or even most of Nessa's final scene?
@@1993digifan That is not what they're saying.
@@1993digifanthey described a wig and a costume change
I agree with your critiques, but part of me thinks, is that not the whole point of Wicked? Glinda isn't a hero for pitying Nessa. Boq is clearly in the wrong for staying "loyal" to Nessa. And Nessa's demanding of Elphaba to cast the spell that enables her to walk is not presented as good in any way. It literally destroys her life, far more than being in a wheelchair ever did.
It all ruins her life, she is bitter and evil which are allllll disability stereotypes and how we are often seen in the media
@DisabledEliza oh I see. Do you think it could work differently seeing how those elements weren't present in part one of the movie like they were in the musical? Perhaps leaning more towards her love of Boq than the stereotypical bitterness?
@@cameronhodgetts920 She has to be bitter. She's The Wicked Witch of the East who oppresses the Munchkins (of which Boq happens to be, albeit oversized) & gets Dorothy Gale's flying farmhouse smashed atop her via errant tornado summoned by Madame Morrible after Glinda suggests the best way to lure fugitive Elphie out of hiding is to go after her crippled/disabled sister.
I love that in the movie (I can't remember from the stage show) Nessa is supposed to be the only sister attending Shiz. That she is fine and ready to go off to university, Elphaba is happy and says that she is fine, it is the overly protective dad who won't let her be (and we already jnow he is not the best). We also see Nessa adapting just fine and making friends right away. I hated Boq for playing on her emotions to try and impress Galinda. I want more of her character and story.
I don’t want to say your points are wrong, because I completely agree that in some parts of the show Nessa’s portrayal and the way people treat her are kinda icky in terms of disability representation, but I do kinda want to note that Galinda has a bit of depth in her addition to it. She is very self-centered and she only makes decisions that make her *appear* good, she isn’t really a nice and just person. The way she treats Nessa is supposed to exemplify her artificial nature, she only pitys her when it makes people look at her as being careing (like how she changed her name in solidarity of Dr. Dillamond, it’s shallow and only a decision made to make her look good), so when she makes Bach go out with her, it’s a two in one, she seems merciful for pitying the disabled and she gets the guy she doesn’t want to back off. Never in the play is this shown to be a morally upstanding thing to do, as Galinda is constantly put under scrutiny for her selfish tendencies, so her pity being unwarranted isn’t touched on as all her actions are ment to show how superficial she is, could this have been done better? Possibly, but this is just something to keep in mind. Now the trapping of Bach is definitely a valid concern and I hadn’t thought about how people always assume disabled people want to remove there disability, when in reality they just want to live their lives with accommodations, so that point is very much something to think about. Very nice video, just thought I would add some of my thoughts on Galinda.
I think for me it’s more than just galinda but also Elphaba having to follow nessa to uni because they are worried about her, or even blaming herself for nessas disability it all just sits a bit uncomfortable personally but agree with what you said about galinda, although I suppose there is a conversation to be had about why she thought that was socially acceptable as well! Xx
@ oh I definitely agree, as whole it felt like it could have been handled better. I feel like they really wanted to force a comparison of how both sisters were unhappy with the situation they were given, but it just feels forced and beating down on Nessa’s position, as if she needed to be babied. Nessa is her own woman, unfortunately it seem that even in a fantasy realm society reflects our own. I just felt like out of the whole mess? Galinda was the most “ defensible” - in that, if they were to rewrite it with a more open mind of sorts, Galinda would be one of the few where I argue it makes sense of her character to take advantage of those perceived as lesser. I personally don’t agree with those ideals, but unfortunately there are people who are like her and take advantage of those who are often ignored till it’s convenient to acknowledge them. It sucks, my heart goes out to all of those affected by these societal issues, but in stories like these, if her character is already written like that, why brush past that issue and instead point out how Galinda doing this is wrong(I feel like they tried to do that with the movie, but went past it quicker than would allow for this to flesh out). But the biggest thing is to actually allow a real disabled actor on stage in the show to prove this point, but I digress. In short, I still find this video very information and I agree with you, but maybe it’s cause I look a little too deep into character motivations, that I just wanted to point out how Galinda’s part could have shown how it’s bad to treat Nessa the way she often is. Though if every other character treats her the same that point does get kinda muted. Sorry if I came off argumentative, that wasn’t my intention and thanks for the response as well.
@@DisabledElizaOkay but to softly push back on Elphaba's position here. In the movie at least (as I have never had a chance to see the musical), Elphaba does not want to follow Nessarose and tries to argue with her father, who is shown to overly baby Nessa due to her being the right color, the last child he could have with his wife, and disabled. Elphaba does react to protect Nessa when she's being pushed away but it was in reaction to seeing Nessa's self advocacy being ignored, and Nessa is lifted out of reach, not automatically returned to Elphaba's side. Nessa is still embarrassed and upset both with Elphaba and the entire situation as she has every right to be. Elphaba still overstepped in trying to make sure Nessa's voice is heard and undermined her desire to be independent. And we are never shown Elphaba telling Nessa about what happened with their father or not why she chose to attend Shiz. So to Nessa it is easy to see Elphaba as someone else who has always pitied and tried to help her*.
As for Elphaba blaming herself for Nessa's disability: both an in narrative and out of narrative explanation holds up. In universe, Elphaba has been very explicitly blamed for Nessa's wheelchair since she was a child. Even if you can intellectualize it later in life in your own head that trauma still persists and that's why it's such a big deal for Galinda to actually say that it's not true. Galinda is likely the first person to say that out loud. Given the strain of the siblings' relationship even if Elphaba told Nessa her guilt and Nessa tried to reassure her, it wouldn't have sunk in. And I personally doubt that happened once Nessa was older and found her freedom being constrained by everyone around her.
Metatextually, this is a discussion of what it means to be Wicked and how someone can end up this way. Therefore Elphaba the character is made to essentially live through a pseudo-Biblical trials of Job. She's green, she has weird powers she can't control, her father despises her and forces her to care for Nessa which leads to a rift between sisters. She isn't allowed to want for herself. She takes the blame for everything. The narrative takes every chance it can to tear her down so when she hits that low point we can see her turn and why.
*Something I realized while writing this is that Elphaba's attempts to advocate for Nessarose lines up with her later attempts to advocate for Animals. In both cases she is coming from a well meaning place but, like with making the situation worse for Nessa and imposing herself on her sister's life more at Shiz, what happens to the cub that she "saved" later on? What happens to her teacher and the flying monkeys? She wants to do good, but she's not part of the community and she's not exactly listening to them either. It's different from Galinda's obvious faux niceties and it's easy to dismiss Elphaba's actions as she's doing her best, but is she really? We never see her properly talk to Nessa after the incident. Is this to save time or is it because that rift is broken forever?
I'm very curious what part two does.
@@icaruskeyartist "Nessa. Dr. Dillamond. Fiyero. FIYERO! [...] Sure I meant well, but look at what well-meant did. Alright, enough! So be it! So be it, then. Let all of OZ be agreed: I'm WICKED! Through & through. Fiyero, in saving you, I promise No Good Deed will I attempt to do again. Ever again! No Good Deed. Will. I. Do. Again!" ~ Lyrics of _No Good Deed (Goes Unpunished)_
This isn’t about the movie it’s only about the play, as I said in the video the film handles in very very well, even the bit where she says things like ‘of course I’ll care for nessa’ has different nuances to it. The film sits very different to the play!
In the book, while Nessarose does reside in a wheelchair most of the time, she actually CAN walk, but struggles to because she has no arms due to a birth defect, leading her to struggle with balance. The silver slippers allow her to balance completely normally, and she even unsettles a lot of characters by often standing in odd or bizarre angles, because no matter what position she is in, the magic of the shoes keep her upright. She even uses that to her advantage when she becomes the ruler of Munchinland and basically becomes a tyrant in many senses of the word.
honestly this would probably have been a better idea for the film rather than to have to make the decision of "how do we ask this person who cannot stand, to stand? do we change the story, and risk the ire of the fans? do we get a body double?" etc etc etc
@ilexdiapason They should have drawn a lot more from the book.
As much as I love Wicked it always bothered me what they do with Nessa. I love how Nessa is not ashamed about being in a wheelchair she just wants to be independent. I also love how the movie makes her have a beautiful and whimsical wheelchair.
Yes the movie has done such a brilliant job at it and definitely moved away from the musicals narrative
Regarding Glinda and Boq: Glinda’s pity of Nessa is meant to be performative and shallow-this way, she comes off as a “good” person and gets Boq off her back (she avoids doing the true good thing of letting Boq down gently). And meanwhile, Boq has many chances to come clean to Nessa about why he asked her out, yet chooses to continue lying. It’s not entirely his fault that he becomes trapped to the extent of enslavement (as he is in Act/Part 2), but he also could’ve cut ties before that by telling Nessa the truth, accepting the anger she’d likely feel, and parting ways.
So in that way, I didn’t feel Nessa was villainized until she became governor and abused that power. And those who have pitied her thus far have had narrative reasons for it, not just “oh this is how you SHOULD treat disabled people”
She is definitely pitied in my opinion, she’s called ‘tragically beautiful’ and her father makes her sister go with her to university to look after her. There is also a question as to why people thought pitying her was the ‘right’ thing to do… the whole thing is still icky to me even with that additional potential nuance.
@@DisabledEliza that's fair, though it's Madame Morrible who calls her "tragically beautiful", and she tends to be patronizing and manipulative in general (Glinda also calls her that, but I've addressed Glinda's motives in my original comment - she's not framed as kind for her words/actions, but rather performative). And their father pitying Nessa and tasking Elphaba with looking after her is largely due to him spoiling her because she's the "good" daughter (part of it is definitely "oh she's disabled", but it's also because she's the daughter who isn't an embarrassment to him)
100% agree the film improves how Nessa’s depicted. I remember the musical being severely troublesome in how Nessa is portrayed and I think the movie treats the subject of ableism a LOT more sensitively.
Yeah it seems a lot lot better and Marissa seems really great too!
as an able bodied person, i never thought much about how we don't see disabled actors. it is really bizarre, since disabled people represent such a big portion of society, and that number will only grow as population ages.
i think wicked is doing something really subversive, which is not at all what i expected from this production
I have an invisible physical disability and a learning disability (if you are wondering its 22q and fixed scoliosis I got the surgery at 12 i am now 16) Though i am not a wheelchair user, i deeply related to Nessa, in wanting to be independent and starting her own story, i know other kids like me have it worse but i smiled seeing a character i related to even though i didn't have the same thing as her, but a lot of the ways people treated her in the movie people have treated me before. I don't want to be pitied or babied i want to be seen as a normal human being. life is difficult and lonely I don't even know if I'll actually graduate and go to college on my own fully, i have to work 10x harder than the average person but I'm working towards a future where i can be fully independent and living on my own :) I've always wanted to see a character with the same disablitiy as me and though this hasnt happened yet because we are a very small minoirty not even 1% of the population (about 4,000 of us across the world) seeing her made me smile more than it should have :)
I've been wondering how they'll approach Nessa's plotline in part 2, and I feel like probably the best thing to do would be to show her anger as being specifically at how she's treated for being disabled, the being belittled and infantilized and so on, and then Elphaba's "curing" her would be portrayed as more of a well-meant mistake that fails to bring Nessa the autonomy she seeks. I don't think they'd stray too far from the established story, but I do think there could be some interesting nuances.
Very potential! Or maybe it’ll only be a short term thing that she is able to walk, or maybe they will change it even more! I guess we will find out in a year!
They already set up in part 1 that what she truly wants is independence. Nessa loves elphaba but wants to make her own story, and she is tired of people always trying to "help" and "protect" her. I bet she'll get a different power that better illustrates this in part 2 without relying on the old walking narrative.
I was wondering the same thing. I get that it is great for representation, but if they change too much, people will voice their views on the subject.
Given that the origin of the winged monkeys is framed as exactly that kind of well-meant mistake, it would accord with Elphaba's character.
the og composer mentioned part 2 is gonna have new songs so maybe Nessa is getting one
In my high school’s production of The Little Mermaid Prince Eric was a wheelchair user and it made the story so much better tbh. Made it more of a story of accepting who you are and loving your partner for who they are.
Love that!
I’m not a wheelchair user, however I am disabled and honestly this film did so much right I actually cried.
The scene where Elphaba dances for the first time as she tries to socialize actually brought tears to my eyes. I’ve tried doing this so many times. But I never had a Glinda to support me like that.
I didn’t think I’d like this film as much as I did but this rep really scored a whole lotta points in my book.
The film rep is amazinggggg
I haven't seen the stage show but I appreciated how the movie directed the ickiness onto the characters who were being ableist instead of onto Nessa. I'm excited to see what happens in part 2!
I appreciate how her role plays into the good vs evil, like Elphaba and Glinda, more so in the movie. Elphaba has always been oppressed by society which helped her seek compassion for animals and influenced her good nature, while Glinda has always tried to mold herself into this perfect image which influenced her selfish nature. Nessarose was probably bullied by others, like Elphaba, for being seen as different, but in the end that made her selfish like Glinda. Which honestly makes sense cause Elphaba's and Nessa's dad coddled her, so she's probably used to seeing things her way. *Spoiler for Act 2* Since their dad dies of a heart attack after seeing Elphaba become a "villain," I hope that is the motivation for Nessa becoming a wicked witch. Maybe her mourning her dad is what drove her to madness, similar to Elphaba when Nessa dies.
Ooo yes I like this idea!
I thought the reason she became a villain was more in an attempt to keep Boq close to her? Nessa was removing munchkin rights just so Boq had to stay near her because she’d gotten possessive of him, and she spirals hard once he tries to leave, nearly killing him. I know there were definitely ableist parts mixed in but I’d never seen the motive as being just because she was in a wheelchair?
I'm pretty sure that Nessa x Boq plot is not showing that a person with a wheelchair is trapping him but that Nessa is self centred and manipulative, which is a set up for a reason why Munchkins were glad she got killed by a house
That’s why people think disabled people trap people into relationships though… we manipulate them to stay etc :/
@DisabledEliza idk you kinda sound like you think that disabled characters should have less personality traits and be only portrayed as good, perfect people and not have bad traits that have nothing to do with their disability
No I don’t want characters to lean into the heavy stereotypes that exist, considering good disability representation in media is very very difficult to find I could literally count the examples on ones hand
The scene where Elphaba says is her fault for eating the flowers in the movie really got me
Personally I like the story of nessa, because her bitterness and desire to be like everyone else runs parallel to Elphaba's story of self acceptance. Yes there is a problem of disabled people always being portrayed that way, but it's a problem with media in general rather than Wicked specifically, and I believe the solution is to have more stories with disabled people content and happy with their lives rather than changing the existing representation.
I think the catalyst for Boq leaving Nessarose is learning Fieryo is out of the picture rather than her walking
If that even happens at all
My memory of Nessa's character in the book (I read it near when it came out, so over 20 years ago) is that she is portrayed as a burden on Elphaba because of her personality much more than her disability. She has grown up completely spoiled because of their messed up family dynamics, and so she is selfish and demanding. I remember seeing the play for the first time and being shocked at her portrayal--I had remembered her as basically a villain in the book, but on stage she had been sanitized out of recognition. My hunch is that the creators of the musical had to have a reason for some of the plotlines that relied on her nastiness in the book and they unwisely and unkindly shoved it onto her disability in order to keep her a "nice" character for the family-friendly musical. But now I want to go back and read the book again and see if my hunches on this are correct! My younger sister is disabled and we've always been really close, so I think I would have picked up on the ickiness you're talking about if it had been in the book. I definitely noticed it in the musical.
I am not a wheelchair user but I am autistic and I agree with you that having a disability, I just want to be accepted for just being a person and also not seen as being a burden. A former caregiver emotionally and verbally abused me once I became an adult and one of the many horrible things she would say to me is how much she hated me because she “gave up so much” to take care of me and that it was my fault she was so miserable and single. She actually screamed at me how it was my fault she wasn’t happily married to a boyfriend she had when I was five and had kids with him and that emotionally shattered me. Her fiancé saw how upset this made me and called her out for it and this woman had the audacity to use my autism as an excuse for her behavior and claimed that it made me “misunderstand” what she meant and that she wasn’t angry. I knew this was a lie but I didn’t say anything because I didn’t want to make her angry and have her hit me for “talking back” to her. It felt so insulting and patronizing that she thought me being autistic meant that I was so stupid that I couldn’t tell the difference between tone of voices and when someone is saying something really cruel in an attempt to hurt me. She made me feel like I was a burden for so long that I actually felt guilty that my sister sacrificed her teen social life to watch me on the weekends and that she resented me because of it. I now know that isn’t true but feeling like I was a burden on the world really affected my mental state and self esteem.
haven't watched the whole video yet, and I'm disabled but am not a wheelchair user but: when i went to watch the movie again today, i ended up seeing another wheelchair user besides nessa!! they were an ozian in one short day and you can see them during the story of the wise ones. it's nice to see them cast wheelchair users outside of the one named character to fill the world with more types of people
it's so nice to see disabled rep played/written by those with the disability as it brings a lot more nuance to the role.. like nessa, i think a notable bad autistic rep is the good doctor imo lol
Yess I saw that and i was beaming!! Having a wheelchair user just in Oz felt great! Haha oh yes the good doctor I’m autistic but I haven’t seen it however everyone talks about how bad it is haha xx
@ oh!! in addition to that, i also saw some little people in one short day as well in the very beginning of the song!!
@@kino9643 Hopefully, that means we can get traditional Munchkins alongside the Ethan Slater-inspired ones when _The Wizard of OZ_ proper plotline takes effect.
As an able bodied person attempting to write a wheelchair user, finding your channel has been an absolute blessing, and absolutely the resource I’ve been looking for! I had no idea it might feel “ick” to attempt writing a character who didn’t like needing their chair
I’m not completely sure if how I’ve written my character qualifies as “hates needing her chair”, but I’ll definitely be shifting a few character traits around. I’ll also look for someone in the wheelchair community to test read the story, to get their input, when I get to that stage (I only just recently started my first draft so it’ll be a while).
I’m sorry this comment has nothing to do with Wicked I just got super excited about your channel
Hi! This video got recommended to me and I just wanted to share my thoughts. First of all, it's been a long time since I saw the musical, but I do remember the basic plot. I absolutely love Marissa Bode's portrayal, I think she's wonderful. The whole Boq storyline makes me feel very icked out, just the idea that he's going with her as a second option and DOES feel sorry for her is wild, but it's so indicative of real ableism that people face. That being said, the second half I have mixed feelings about and feel I can't articulate well. While I do understand the "miracle walking" trope is a thing in media, it would be nice to change it in Part 2. I know the Wicked purists won't be happy about that, but if it lessens the ableism to a degree, I see that as good. I myself am somewhat of a purist for this show - even though I'm disabled and a wheelchair user myself - but even I can think of ways around this to make it inclusive.
For example, what if Nessa levitates out of her chair and treads the air if it is possible? That would be more of a zero gravity thing and harkening back to her chair levitating in the movie, without being like "oh, she's walking guys!" It would be the same sort of beat, but not like a curing moment, and she could protest the entire time this happens, knowing that she doesn't want this change, whereby Boq sees that and acts cruelly still. IDK, I'm more icked out by the presumably abled people in the comments making excuses for why it can't be changed. That being said, I feel like so many of these characters are morally grey, and I feel like Boq leaving Nessa as soon as she can walk is just an indicator of that, same as Nessa trying to get him to stay with her. No one is either completely good or evil in Wicked, and that's what I think is so interesting about it, however I'm really excited to see what Marissa has consulted on and reworked. I think it's good that they are actually listening to the disabled community. It makes ME feel seen as a viewer. ❤
Definitely agree with everything you have said!! I am soo interested to see how they do it! Even if just means changing the nuances around it, for example in the film nessa isn’t saying how much she hates her disability all the time! I really love Marissa and I trust she will do an amazing job!! Haha yeah ofc all those non disabled people are determined to say I’m wrong! Classic when talking about this online haha xx
In the book, Nessa was born without arms and had to use the wheelchair because apparently she couldn’t balance. I assume they changed it because it would be quite difficult to find actors without arms
Sure maybe but they also exist! As do real life wheelchair users who could play the role ❤️
@ oh definitely. I wasn’t trying to deny that at all 💜
I'm curious how the second-half of the adaptation will handle that change. Nessarose walking again always bothered me (even as an able-bodied individual who has other disabilities), but her cursing Boq is important to his transformation into The Tin Man.
We don’t know! It might be that she can fly it might be bow just confesses his love, it might just be that they change the nuance around it so it’s not just ‘omg that’s so great you can walk’ but more ‘oh that happened?’
I thought that it would be nice if nessa got angry about it like even stops her sister from performing the spell or wanting to do something like that
@@fairyorb4585 Sure, but it'd still have to end with Boq getting curse and being turned into The Tin Man to save his life. Otherwise the song about killing Elphaba wouldn't make sense.
@CaptainRaccoonWhitly yes absolutely which makes me really excited as to how this is all gonna work
Loved the movie! I read that Marissa Bode also made the change to have Nessa's backpack hanging from the back of her chair, instead of sitting on her lap like in the musical. Representation matters for so many reasons, but especially because a wheelchair user finally being cast in Nessa's role means that the story benefits from the realism and experience that Marissa brings!
Ok here we go lol. So I’m not a wheelchair user but I am disabled (my pancreas doesn’t work. So I have multiple devices hooked up to me allowing me to eat and keeping me alive essentially). So my disabled experience is different from a wheelchair user’s. However, from a general disabled perspective, I think the thing that abled bodied people miss the mark on when writing disabled characters, like Nessa, as always wanting to not be disabled any more is not that we don’t think about that, but that’s not an ever day struggle we have. I would love to be cured, but I’m not sitting at home being upset about that all the time. The daily things that are upsetting are the cost of my medical treatment, people being uneducated, and a whole bunch of little things concerning how society treats my condition. If someone says something uneducated I don’t think: wow I wish I wasn’t disabled because then people wouldn’t say that. I think: wow I wish people were more educated and thought a little harder before they spoke. I can’t be cured right now, it’s just not possible, but able bodied people can change their attitude and society can become more accommodating. So why would I be upset about something not existing more than a very achievable thing not happening because of a lack of trying? So yes, for me personally, there is a general wish for a cure, but the daily struggles that come from how society treats and views my disability are much more prevalent and pressing to me on average, and I think able bodied people totally miss that a lot of times with disabled characters. (I want to say that my disability is actively life threatening but not all disabilities are. People with non life threatening disabilities might feel differently about being “cured” and that’s totally and completely valid!)
Very very valid and thank you for sharing!!
i didn't know anything about Wicked before seeing the movie just recently which is probably extremely controversial. I found myself reflecting on how the writing seemed to be assigning ableist attitudes to Glinda and her minions as a part of showing their "true colors", like highlighting the ridiculousness of ableist attitudes almost?
The film was my first time actually watching wicked. It’s one of those musicals I’ve always wanted to get into, but have never really found the time. And I’ve seen past discussions, including those surrounding Nessa.
And I really was happy and surprised with how her character was handled in the movie! The movie all around was delightful, I’m very happy with this first half of the movie so far and I’m excited for how they work around the second act.
The film is brilliantttttt
I'm super excited to see how the wicked witch of the east reveal is going to be with Marissa's input! I think with the film budget and the film media itself, this truly is the perfect time to make an adjustment that isn't so ableist. They could do something very creative there and I don't know what it will be. I just hope it will be something surprising and empowering. Which would make reworking and visualizing the change for the stage even easier.
I can’t wait!!
NOT ONLY OUTDATED, those original books are dark AF, I'm talking about straight-from-the-deepest-hell kind of dark
It’s funny how where you are when you consume a story impacts your feelings. I first saw Wicked when I was 17 and increasingly ill. My high honor choir went to nationals and we got to see it in Chicago.
I was already passing out from sudden pain flares during practice and performances. It was the only class I went to in all of high school because I was too ill to attend; ton of pain, no energy, no focus. I fought like hell to go to choir.
But… the students had made a rumor that maybe my I’ll health was from an STD or something and no one would sit by me. There were spaces next to me, always. The popular girl hated me (we were both the only alto 2s). So everyone was really horrible to me when she was around, or anyone who might report to her. I’d been sick since I was 12, but it was just so bad at this point.
So was watching the play, with THESE PEOPLE, and I cried, a lot. It was wild that they all identified with Elphaba when they were being so heartless.
I identified with Elphie because I was different, but with Nessa, because I truly hated how sick I was and how much of a burden I felt I was (my parents had to come on the trip and help me with my meds and make me rest instead of sight seeing and stuff).
I’ve been sick ever since, and sometimes bedbound for years. But it’s part of why I’m kind. It’s a main reason why I’m so resilient. It’s just part of me. I feel like Nessa would have hit me differently if I first encountered her now.
One of my best friends from college is a wheelchair user and your sentiments about wanting accessibility, not pity are similar to how she talked about living with her disability (especially given the numerous accessibility issues she ran into on our campus and around the city). I think that’s also why it was gratifying to see Nessa in the film saying no when her father and the staff at Shiz insisted that she be pushed around and have everything taken care of for her. It was nice to see a Nessa who wanted to do things for herself and to see that at least Elphaba understood and respected that
loved your review, especially through the lens of being a wheelchair user! i found your perspective really valuable in synthesizing my own opinion of the film's presentation of disability.
the treatment of nessa's character in the original stage show has always been one of its biggest flaws to me (for all of the reasons you mentioned in your video), but seeing how they've handled this adaptation so far gives me hope for what they do with her in part 2. i'm so sorry about the people being awful in your comments; it just goes to show how ableism is normalized even in the more progressive spaces of theater and entertainment.
Thank you so much for this! I really don’t understand why people would be so annoyed with me for literally saying that a character makes me uncomfortable but I love the show haha I definitely agree with everything you said! I’m so pleased to see the film change this icky storyline in the future ❤️
I'm an aspiring Screenwriter who happens to be disabled. I'm currently working on a pilot for a fantasy show about a disabled mother. I keep having my doubts, thinking it's not "marketable" or that "no one will want to see it", but I know I'm my heart that it NEEDS to be written. Seeing Wicked and the response it's gotten from the disabled community has given me so much hope in my story. Guess I better go finish writing it now!
Read the Book that the musical and film are based on before making large judgements about the creators. Nessarose in the book is born Armless and has no balance which is why she has trouble walking and getting around without a wheel chair. For the musical its hard to do a musical and have one of your main characters armless, so instead they made her paralyzed until her sister does a spell which in the book was Glinda to her Silver Shoes to help her walk straighter and not need help getting around. I understand that people are different, but there are reasons why Maguire and the writers of the show, did what they did for the story which is a prequel to Wizard of Oz. And Nessa due to her being born a normal color even with her being in a wheel chair or having no arms, she was more seen and excepted then her older sister, so I don't see how that's enabling and problematic for the character. And the actress in the film has stated that they wanted the films Nesserose to be less angry, and less witchy and religious and treat her circumstances like she just wants to go to school and be with everyone else. And having the other people around her treat her like she cant do anything especially when its in a time period of fantasy that is 1800's and not up-to-date. that's what people did to those who were different and have physical problems. I don't see the show or the film or the book being or doing anything wrong, plus its fiction, in the Baum books the Witch of the East walked and had two arms. I'm a big Oz fan and know what I'm talking about when it comes to The World and character of the Wizard of Oz and its world. They handled it in the film much better cause they worked with the actress playing Nessa, and created and made her more well rounded, and much more likable then in the Broadway play, where she's kind of a B, and in the book shes very religious and full of herself just like her religious reverend father.
Are you a wheelchair user? as I stated it might be fiction but the the show leans heavily into many many many ableist stereotypes. I’ve already read the book BUT most people who watch the show haven’t and it’s been heavily adapted. Once again here are all the ableist stereotypes that it leans into (some of which are in your comment) in the show:
1: she hates her disability
2: she is bitter and mean, you even call her a ‘b’ in your comment, the bitter disabled person is a harmful trope
3: Boq is trapped in a relationship with her and asks to leave as soon as she is healed, which is another stereotypical idea that people hate dating us because we are disabled
4: she is pitied by characters, including Elphaba feeling guilt around nessa being disabled and ‘caring for her’ at university
5: she is EVIL, you will notice how the media demonises disabled people as ‘lazy’ ‘get them back to work’ and if you notice the majority of disability representation that we have are call characters.
For your point on the film, I absolutely promise you it’s a very accurate representation of how people treat wheelchair users today, particularly women of fem presenting people, thinking we can’t do anything, surprised if we drive, have a partner, have a baby, push our wheelchairs without permission, want independence but the world will put in barriers to make that impossible like working but then demonises us when we can’t work because they don’t make it accessible. Just last week the exact thing that happens to nessa in the film happened to me in person.
It might ‘just’ be fiction but fiction runs parallel to our world and if we had 100000 pieces of good disability stories to watch and this one was bad it would be less of an issue, BUT the vast majority of media falls into these harmful stereotypes and nessas story in the show is icky for the vast majority for wheelchair users I’ve spoken to and you (if you are a wheelchair user) may be fine with it, but that doesn’t change the fact that many many many of us aren’t fine with it.
Marissa has allowed real disability representation and even put in moment that happen to wheelchair users regularly like being pushed without permission (which happened to me recently) and being told we can’t be independent like going to university.
@@DisabledElizaHow would you write a villain origin story for a wheelchair using villain that avoids tropes? (Preferably one that uses shoes as a symbol of story significance, but I'm guessing the very premise is ablist)
Even in the musical I love Nessa's storyline! It's sadly beautiful (beautifully sad?). I'm not a wheelchair user, but I do see myself in Nessa because I was born with what some people call an "invisible" disability. My balance is not great at all and I can't go up or down staircases if they don't have handrails. I was over the moon when I found out that Nessa was going to be played by an actual disabled actress for the first time AND that the set was made completely accesible for her! I can't wait to see what Marissa comes up with for Nessa's future. I kinda hope she has a happy ending. Actually, I hope the movie as a whole has a happy ending because I HATE the way the musical ends.
The entire second act hinges on her dying under Dorothy’s house so I doubt it
Yeah, about that happy ending...
@@tahraethestoryteller6079 she also becomes a narcissist in the second act and i hate that and the fact that gets to walk as if being disabled was bad was also an annoying choice.. Hope movie fixes it
@@forest1605hate to break it to you but she needs to be that way. She’s the WICKED WITCH of the east for a reason
@@forest1605 The movie won't change much because it has to abide by OZ canon lore (at least, in terms of the 1939 MGM film, in terms of Dorothy's perception), which means Nessa has to become a tyrant & get flattened by a house.
im not against making the story a bit more nuanced, but i do have to wonder how they can really handle act 2 while keeping the core the same. I mean, for the extent of the connective and referential material between wicked and wizard of oz, it might be a bit harder to make audiences believe the house crushing leaving only the legs and shoes if they dont find some excuse to make the magic of "standing", but on the flip side, an adjustment to the story can VERY easily add even more fuel to "no good deed". We still need the wicked witch of the east to appear, and tinman is going to be very hard to "redeem" in the context of how he played a role in the creation of the witch of the east, but maybe some slight tweaking about the motivation behind the magic...
Making elphaba's "gift" a more explicit curse doesnt really align with the changes we already see to make it less of a doting relationship. Act 2 WAS rushed in the musical, though, so giving the story some more space to breathe leaves open the potential to REALLY dive into the wicked witch of the east and how that title was earned, which also means a potential character "growth" of coming to loathe the chair... I really am just spit balling here, though. i dont doubt they can fix it, i just dont see how the general beats can stay the same without really using the extra run time to create new story around her; i expect that it takes the creativity of exploring that extra time more than the adaption of the points directly shown in the musical. Speculating on how the extra time is spent is too broad to really narrow down the options, leaving me to look at only what has already been set up in part one and the broad strokes of the musical.
I see it all boiling down to the tinman, again. If the tinman remains mostly unchanged from the musical, they wont have many options, but if the relationship is a bit more nuanced, maybe it can work. The musical's version of the tinman is very much a villain in their own right, but it also seems the movie wants to add a bit more depth to 'em.
saying "the tin man" when you're talking about people who are connected to nessa honestly feels MORE spoilery than just saying boq would be imo
@ilexdiapason yeah, i get it, but it is a catch 22. "boq" leaves no room for debate, but "tinman" can be more infuriating to connect the dots on. i went with "tinman" because there is at least a chance you dont connect the dots, but it isnt like this video itself avoids act 2 spoilers.
No, i think the bigger spoiler with "tinman" is simply spelling out how dorothy's role in the story becomes more relevant in act 2, but that is the debate of hype and context more than spoilers; it isnt a hard assumption to make, but act 1 is just disconnected enough that it is hard to tell if the story will remain entirely a prequel or not... at least until the play opens with the death of the wicked witch of the west with the implication the story will explain everything up to that point.
A lot of people have talked about how Nessa's arc is pretty callous in the stage show, and how she's always played by able-bodied actors so they can have a couple of moments where she walks because of Elphaba trying to "fix" her. When I saw just how little insecurity Marissa played her with, at first I was thinking how different it was, before realizing "Oh yeah, why should she be mad? her turn in Act 2 is more about her feelings toward Elphaba and Mayor Thropp." Even if they still do some version of the walking scene, it can be done more like Elphaba overstepping her boundaries in desperation. Nessa doesn't *need* to hate being a chair user.
I loved hearing your take on this.
I do wonder how they plan to change the Witch of the East scene in the second film. There are a lot of interpretations of that scene in the show, some better than others, but the way I personally see it is Nessa desperately trying to keep the one she loves and Boq clearly only staying with her out of pity. From what I’ve heard, this empty sympathy doting is something a lot of disabled people get - and hate. Then when Elphaba enchants her shoes, Boq thinks there’s no reason to stay with Nessa anymore because she doesn’t need help moving around anymore. He’s completely blind to the fact that she wants to actually *be* with him instead of just be helped by him. The fact that he was never honest about his reason for interacting with her doesn’t help either. And of course it’s another example of someone “helping” a disabled person to feel good about themselves.
But that’s my take. Nessa deserves better no matter what.
I am not and never have been a wheelchair user but as a musical fan who has heard so much good about Wicked I was shocked when I saw it due to the ableism
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I quite liked the original Nessa. She was like a cautionary tale of what happens when disabled people are given physical independence but not mental independence. That doesn't make me any less excited to see how these changes go. I say this as a wheelchair user.
Very valid. I just HATE how bitter she is which is such a common trope 😭
@@DisabledEliza But she has to be bitter. She becomes The Wicked Witch of the East & gets flattened by a house, for (not necessarily) goodness' sake.
Non-disabled person here. In your opinion, do you think there's a way to adapt Elphaba enchanting the shoes to make her walk without it being ablest? I personally always liked that part, because I see the whole of Wicked as being sort of a puzzle piece meant to fit with the original Wizard of Oz, and the shoes being given that significance I thought set up Nessa's feet curling up under the house after Glinda removes them. Like, when the enchantment is taken away, it takes twice as much as it gave or something to that effect, thus the curling.
And obviously the priority should be making the story more inclusive and less problematic, so if there's no way to rectify that plot point I'm in favor of it being changed, I'm just curious for other people's perspective.
9:11 to everyone who has commented “you can’t spoil an old theater play/book! It’s been out for decades!”
😒
While I understand several of the points you made in this video, there’s also some things that need to be addressed. And I say all of this with the utmost respect. I just want to give my two cents on the matter, for what it may be worth.
First: The reason Nessarose is never portrayed by a disabled actress in the play is because she eventually has to stand up and walk in act II. There was another commenter who also mentioned this, as well. I’m very much aware that there are some wheelchair bound people who can actually walk for short periods of time. But I’ve seen Wicked four times on stage. The Wicked Witch of the East is one of my favorite scenes of the play and I like to dissect it as thoroughly as I can. In each one of those segments, the actress who played Nessa had to do some EXTREMELY exaggerated movements with her legs when she walks for the first time. Not to mention she has to fall over flat on her face, as well. I feel like this would put a lot of strain on an actual disabled actor and they also would have to do this two to three times EVERY day that they work. On top of that, with how popular Wicked is and how long it’s been running, that means there have been a lot of Nessas in its over twenty year lifespan. I’m curious as to how many available wheelchair bound actresses who can also sing to the specifications of the role are available. Maybe there’s more than I realize but the world of Broadway actors already seems so small as it is.
Second: What’s interesting is that, in the original book by Gregory Maguire which is what the musical is based on, Nessarose is disabled in an entirely different way. Instead of being wheelchair bound she is born without arms. I think the creators of the show thought that it would be easier to go the route that they did instead of the source material and I completely agree. However, because they made these changes, that also meant that they had to rework her story of how she became the Wicked Witch of the East. While there are obvious problems that could be improved upon, I think they did the best that they could given the changes that had to be made.
Third: No, I’m not disabled in anyway. So I can’t ever fully understand the thoughts and feelings of those who are on the subject of whether or not they wish they weren’t disabled. But, with that said, no one can deny that there ARE disabled people who feel that way. If you were to tell them that you had the ability to make them walk with just the snap of your fingers, they would take it in a heartbeat. That’s exactly how Nessarose is. So my personal opinion is that I don’t know why it’s such a horrendous and unbelievable thing to portray this perspective through a character. There are other disabled characters in media that have positive outlooks on their struggles and identities and that’s great! So that also means there shouldn’t be anything wrong with portraying the other side of the coin. Especially since there are disabled people who do think like that.
So we don’t say wheelchair bound we say wheelchair user, we aren’t bound to our chairs.
Your first point: nope there are 1000000000% wheelchair users who can do the part and there isn’t any reason a wheelchair user isn’t cast.
2: I am very aware they made changes in from the book however the character literally leans into every disabled stereotype out there, she is bitter, she is evil, she wants to walk, she traps someone in a relationship. You will notice that most villains we see in media are disabled, they may be physically disabled like Captain Hook or have a facial difference like Voldemort.
She is even described as ‘tragically beautiful’ which is also another stereotype ‘you’d be sooo pretty if it wasn’t for the CHAIR’
She’s deemed unlovable and boq only goes out with her to impress galinda and a weridddd pity thing
No one is saying that wheelchair users can’t feel that way, but that stereotype put into a show is harmful because the reality is, most of us can’t be healed, ever and most of us know that and adapt to our lives, the whole focus on ‘healing’ doesn’t reflect how most of us exist
3: there is very very little good disability representation out there and the vast majority of characters aren’t played by wheelchair users. Artie from glee, character in superstore, me before you, atypical, the good doctor are all examples of non disabled people playing a disabled role. Until we have true equality in the space we need to point out harmful characters that lean verry heavily onto disability stereotypes and how harmful they can be and not come up with reasons to why they are not if they are not in a community you are part of ❤️ currently only 2% of actors that we seen on our screens are disabled with 1 in 4 people being disabled - that number doesn’t add up!
@@DisabledEliza Very insightful reply. Your responses make total sense. Thank you for the correction of wheelchair user, as well.
With your last point I am genuinely curious and would like your honest opinion. It is egregious that there aren't more actual disabled people playing disabled roles in media, there's no doubt about that. But I wanted to know if you ever think there could be a situation where it might be necessary for a non-disabled person to play a role like that?
Like how I mentioned above that there might not be a lot of wheel chair users who can sing to the specifications of the role on Broadway. Hypothetically, if it were true that there are not enough disabled people who can apply for this role for decades to come, would it be ok for abled people to take it? Or any other examples that aren't specifically the role of Nessarose?
Since I'm not disabled, myself, I'd love to have input on this by people who are just out of curiosity.
If we lived in a world where disabled people were equally seen in society then maybe but atm no a non disabled person should never play the role of a disabled person. Disability is not a costume and the real life ableism that these characters face, we face every day and we can’t just ‘take off’ our disability.
I don’t think that the conversation should be ‘will it ever be okay to play a disabled person’ but rather ‘how do we make this more accessible for disabled people’
1/4 people are disabled so there are plenty of us to go round. Just make it accessible for us.
@@DisabledEliza That makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to respond back to my posts. Your answers have been very insightful!
Regardless, I just hope and pray that they will do The Wicked Witch of the East scene justice whenever part 2 comes out. I'm sure they will based on how good part 1 is and I'm so excited to see it!
❤
I’m not a wheelchair user but I am disabled and I 100% agree with all of your points! While I would usually agree that we need to avoid all the disabled stereotypes shown in Wicked, they all have valid reasons in the plot so I don’t think it’s doing as much harm. Especially since it’s obvious (in my opinion) that the way others treat Nessa Rose is wrong.
I fear the woman who made this video is just taking things a bit personally (which I totally understand!) and therefore is currently unable to think more critically on the subject of Nessa Rose
i'm excited to see how nessa's story in act 2 is done in the movie because on stage it was so weird to me how she turned into like a terrible person with seemingly no build up to it, i get she was not the nicest to elphaba before but idk as a disabled person with family members who baby me all the time i'd be embarrassed too when they do it in public
I think in Wicked Nessa wanting to not be disabled is like Elphaba, the society, I'm sure if people treated her normally she would be fine, but she gets treated different by her dad, by teachers, by other kids, where yeah, I doubt she would want to be disabled if it meant that you were never treated normally. Boq being the first one who treated her like a "normal person" besides her sister is probably the reason she fell for him so hard.
boq also isn't happy in his relationship with nessa, because he never liked Nessa in the first place, he always cared for G(a)linda not Nessa
im someone who watched the movie adaptation before the musical, and a big difference i noticed that the movie helped point out to me was in the dance scene with Boq he dances TOGETHER with Nessa and doesnt use her as an accessory for his dance; so when i went home and watched a musical performance of it and saw him pushing her around to dance it made me feel weird. This was something that as someone who doesnt use a wheelchair never thought of. Just another reason why good representation is important so people like me can see how we SHOULD treat wheelchair users.
Love the stealth pun in the title 👀
Hehe
That's a wicked video through it efficiency, simplicity and inclusivity. Loved it (just discovered your channel thanks to it). The debate on whether or not the musical should be changed is acceptable through the lens of ableism if we keep records of the original play and script to remember where we come from. It has been ages since I have read the original Maguire Saga or seen the musical and I did not remember any of those parts about Nessa until you'd had.
I was a bit worried that the film with its popularity "revisionned" the musical and that the musical was adapted to fit the screen version (with alledged new songs from the second movies, and vocal arrangements more based on cinthia than idina for exemple) but I must admit it can be good that the movie raise awareness on this issue.
So the question is, should we adapt the musical or keep it as it is with the movie being complementary to it ? I don't know and I would love to have your opinions
In the us, there is The Penguin Project, a theater group that works to accommodate differently abled students in their cast. They have over 50 chapters, with cast members of a variety of conditions. My favorite personal story is watching the directing team accomodate a mostly-blind artist. They translated the entire script into Braille, altered choreo and blocking so he could use his cane, and added extra lines to his scenes, to help him orient based on the sound.
My local chapter also involves an artist with a muscular condition that means she can't walk for long. The directors made it a point to work with that, with her in her chair most of the show, and instructing her to stand up in the most pivotal scenes, when it makes the most impact. The choreographer also added dance sequences, which she could do using her chair.
Marissa Bode is an ambulatory wheelchair user, so there might not be that substantial a change to the Nessa walking plot.
she'd be able to do the scene in question over several takes, with breaks in between, and go at a pace that accommodates her comfort - something film is much more permissive of than the stage version can be - if they decide not to change it
Have you seen the play? I understand the need to battle ableism but Nessa is a horrible person! She is manipulative and basically imprisons Boq because she’s so jealous of Glinda. That has absolutely nothing to do with her being in a wheelchair, of course, but her character has a horrible character. Perhaps some feel vindicated, but I don’t think she represents the goodness of those who use wheelchairs.
Yes I have and yes all the things you have said in here are alllll ableist tropes. You’ll notice how a lot of villains in the world are disabled, Captain Hook for example or many have facial differences. I’m not suggesting she represents all wheelchair users but there is barely any rep at allll and that’s the issue!
I understand your point better now. I know that many negative characters and characteristics are associated with mental illnesses but I have always felt that characters with physical disabilities were portrayed as intellectually inferior more so than villains. I’ll pay better attention from now on. I know that Marlee Matlin said that less than 20% (or close to that) of characters with disabilities are played by similarly-abled actors. Correcting those things will require a lot of dedication and patience no matter what one’s profession or area of interest.
@@DisabledElizathere’s a difference. If a character is evil because they are in a wheelchair that’s a stereotype. If someone is veil and happens to be in a wheelchair it isn’t. Also, nessa was probably spoiled and had a screwed up mindset taught to her by her father like Glinda but way worse.
Is there a difference or is it just the same repackaged? Where is the Disney princesss in a wheelchair? Or with a limb difference? Where is the a massive superhero with a disability that is accurate and played by someone with that disability. It doesn’t exist. Tomato tomato
I noticed that the movie had a lot more emphasis on respecting Nessa's autonomy than the musical did. Was very happy to hear that Marissa is both actually a wheelchair user and that she got some input on how to improve her character. I'm excited to see how part 2 changes next year and I hope that they found a way to tell the story with more respect and compassion. Thank you for the video!
Hi! Not disabled here but I do love nuanced story telling. For part 2 I hope they keep the walking bit for Nessa, but instead of it being since she resented not being able to walk, have her anger be toward Elphaba who always helped but took away some of her personal independence, when she could have used magic to help her and give her independence rather than "help her" and take it away.
A sorta of "If you wanted to help why didn't you heal me?"
It removes some of the ableist self loathing and puts the anger as more of a you had a solution why didnt you use it it. Which feels like would work with the changes made in the film part 1.
I like this idea! I definitely agree that changing small nuances could completely change the feel!!
I think that Nessa wanting to walk so badly and hating the fact that she is in a wheelchair makes a lot of sense. Like, when your whole life everyone tells you that you are broken and that something is wrong with you, you start to believe it.
but! I think you made some good points and I think the movie handled it much better than the play
I’m not suggesting that she wouldn’t want to feel like that, I’m suggesting that she shouldn’t be written to what to feel like that if that makes sense! Xx
@@DisabledEliza I totally understand what you're saying! They also did something similar with elphaba and her green skin, but she eventually learns to accept that she's green (which unfortunately didn't happen with Nessa). I've always seen Nessa's arc as the opposite of elphaba's but I also see how it could be interpreted differently. I wonder if the creators planned it that way, maybe there's an interview about it somewhere
As an ambulatory wheelchair user we left wicked in london because Nessa was only a character for her wheelchair. She, as a person, could have been replaced by a potted plant who used a wheelchair and they could have told the damn story the same.
Im glad to hear that the movie is apparently doing better but idk how i feel about seeing it yet
One thing I like about the movie version is that respect for Nessa's boundaries and autonomy is treated as vital, and characters who don't do that are framed explicitly as being in the wrong. A teacher trying to push her chair without consent is presented as a violation with serious repercussions, as it should be. There's also the fact that in the Ozdust dance scene, iirc Boq never touches Nessa's chair, he goes out of his way to dance with her directly and make her feel included. They can't change a huge amount about that storyline without rewriting that part of Dancing Through Life, but it was nice to see adjustments being made where they could.
I went to see wicked not knowing much about the original musical apart from the overall narrative and just from listening to defying gravity, so I was plesantly surprised to see elphaba's sister be a wheelchair user... and then was even more surprised to see her struggles seeking independance and elphaba knowing that and trying to give it to her. Im not really a wheel chair user but some could argue I am disabled (even if it feels weird to call my neurodivergence and debilitating anxiety that) but it gave me so much joy when she started to dance 😭
AND HER WHEELCHAIR IS SO CUTE.
Im happy to find this video talking from the perspective of a wheelchair user, seeing all the comments from people in similar situations to nessa and how much it meant to them gives me such fuzzy feelings.
AAAAAA I LOVE YOUR EYE MAKEUP!!!
You should read the book “The Chance to Fly” by Ali Stroker and Stacy Davidowitz. It is about a teenage girl named Natalie, who is a wheelchair user, and is in a production of Wicked. It is (in my opinion) fantastic, and co-written by a wheelchair user.
It’s crazy that I don’t remember any of the ableism from when I watched the show around 6 years ago. I watched the film and assumed this was how Nessa always was. It sounds like they made positive changes!
I think in part two she should make her wheelchair into a flying contraption of sorts, with a spell.
That would be really cool!
I loved how they included someone she didn't know trying to push her chair without asking and it triggers full defence mode in her sister. They clearly listened to the Actress because it's such an unpleasant and far too common experience for wheelchair users
As an able bodied person I always read Nessa as being a casualty of the oppressive system. She is a genuinely kind person but everyone around her treats her poorly because of one difference. She’s annoyed that she has to go through these tribulations just to exist until her nice older sister seemingly has access to a way out. She has been demeaned and looked down upon for her whole life. Her husband only asked her out because he wanted to impress a different girl (how messed up is that). Even if she’s told that it’s not a good idea, she takes the opportunity to escape from the hurt that has been inflicted on her her whole life.
I just want to say a few things about Nessa.
First, in the original book, her disability isn't that she can't walk, but she has no arms. That's why she gets the shoes, because her feet are something she can accessorise on. I presume it's adapted to being unable to walk just because that's easier to cast on stage.
Second (spoilers for Act 2), Nessa gets up and walks after the shoes are enchanted, which I think would be really difficult for most wheelchair users. This is a point I want to talk about further.
I have no idea what they have planned for part 2, what other additional changes they might make. For film, they could actually simulate her walking through harnesses and wires, various other movie magic we've developed over the last 100 years or so. If they change this, and Nessa gets other magical abilities from her enchanted shoes, I'd be OK with it. It'll be different from the musical, but as I already mentioned, they changed Nessa from the book, so a little more change will be fine, so long as it stays in the theme. I'm kind of curious what they will do, if not give her the ability to walk.
I really liked the movie's version of Dancing Through Life; it felt like Nessa was actually dancing, whereas in the stage production I watched, she felt like just a prop for Boq to dance around
Nessa was my favorite character and I’m glad they are improving her story
I haven't seen the musical. Watched the movie yesterday.
Several things that stuck out to me:
Nessa being talked about as "tragically beautiful"... In front of her face. Gave ne the ick so bad. Way too real.
The library? Doesn't look super accessible. Had me wondering about the rest of the university.
Both Nessa AND Elphaba agreeing that Nessa doesnvt need help when she hasn't asked for it was lovely
And just being pushed by a stranger is terrifying so I support Elphaba's "outburst"
Can't wait to see part 2 and what they changed
As for the stageplay - the excuse one could come up with is that "they can't have a disabled actress play the role of Nessarose because she needs to walk in act 2". That is the excuse, but not much else. Change the script. They've already changed so much about the book, this is going to be minor in comparison.
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She's WAY less of a brat, gets along with and treates Elphaba better and you can understand her frustration with people seeing her especially her own father as helpless
They used non-disabled actors for the enchanted shoe scene but that doesn't make it better seeing Marissa being such great rep is fantastic and I'm actually curious on what gonna happen with those change to the scene. And there's that little gem that played baby Nessa who was in a wheelchair too double the rep!
And I'm so envious you to see them live and see Marissa you even got her autograph
In partial defense of musical casting directors, if you've got a story in which the disabled character gets magically cured at some point, you do need an able-bodied character to play the role.
This is only a partial defense, because there's no reason you couldn't cast disabled actors as characters who aren't wheelchair users in canon, and just have them be the same character with the same conflicts and story arc. The fact that they happen to need a wheelchair has no bearing on their characterization or the plot.
In the books, Nessarose's disability is that she was born without arms, and the slippers just prevent her from stumbling because the lack of arms means she has poor balance. This tells you how little Gregory Maguire researched the disability, because I knew from a book I read in my teens that though it takes longer for kids born without arms to *learn* to walk, absent additional disabilities they have just as good balance as the able-bodied after mastering the skill. I read this book in the 1970s, but the book was published in 1955!
As I said in the video hope there are 100000% wheelchair users who can do that role, there are many of us who can walk, dance even run some of us so we can be cast ❤️ xx
@@DisabledEliza Fair enough. I withdraw my partial defense. 😄
I think the main issue is Wizard of Oz establishes the Wicked Witch's sister as someone who was evil and made the munchkins lives horrible. So Wicked always had to have that be the end goal with Nessa. Nessa being a wheelchair user was never written as a commentary on disabled people it was written because the person who wrote the wicked book wanted her to be two faced. And what better way to make a two faced character but by giving her sympathetic qualities. Qualities that people would look at her and go "wow look at all she had to endure". She was written to be in a wheelchair so people would feel sorry for her and she would use that to manipulate people into doing what she wanted.
And this doesnt absolve the issue that this reinforces negative stereotypes that disabled people want attention and to be pitied. But I do think theres something to be said that Nessa's character was always less about the wheelchair and more about her being a narcissist who wants people to feel bad for her to manipulate them. Then once she has power she uses it so no one can leave her alone. And the main issue with this is most people watching the musical dont remember the munchkins in oz singing that the witch of east was a tyrant to them they only remember the witch of the west. So when they look at Nessa they dont think how shes going to inevitably end up making every munchkins life miserable.
I think the concept makes sense. 2 Sisters who are different for 2 different reasons. 1 gets ridiculed and comes out a good person but the whole world except her best friend and lover end up against her. The other gets coddled by her rich family into getting whatever she wants and ends up developing intense narcissism that makes her actually a mean and vindictive person. They are not saying Nessa is a bad person because shes a wheelchair user. Shes a bad person because shes coddled and was never incentivized to do good things. The issue is purely execution. The play never really spends any time diving into Nessa so instead it looks like the show is saying "hey shes in a wheelchair pity her" when its meant to be showing how these 2 girls who both started lives with disadvantages from the same exact family lead completely opposite lives. Its such a shame that the musicals rushed plot makes Nessa fall flat and her portrayal so ableist. And the needing to stand thing is unnecessary you can have a narcissistic wheelchair user without making them magically able to stand it sends such a bad message to disabled people about needing to be "fixed".
Disclaimer I have no physical disability this is just from a massive wicked fan who has overanalyzed the story enough to understand why nessa was written the way she was while also understanding how her portrayal comes off as ableist and wanted to dive a bit deeper into how this even happened.
I feel like... In regards to how act 2 is going to be done
Elphaba (and Nessa) were told from the get-go that everything is Elphaba's fault. The death of their mother, the fact Nessa came prematurely which resulted in her need for wheelchair use.
Nessa in the first movie is portrayed as struggling to be kind with her sister. You see clear love there, but also the desperate need to be independent and to be free of the "anchor" that is her sister Elphaba (even if Nessa would never admit that)
It's easy and plain to see that Nessa holds complicated feelings towards her sister. I'm sure they only grow more complicated and poisoned after their father died due to the news about Elphaba.
Maybe in act 2, the reason for her "walking" isn't because she wants to be cured
Maybe there's dialogue instead of "It's your fault everything bad happens"
it's possible that one of the things she lists for reasons is being unable to walk. Not because she wants to be cured or because she actually mourns not being able to. But because it was something drilled into her head since being a child and is just meant as an example. Then Elphaba mistakenly takes those words at face value and has always felt guilt about it anyways; so she tries to "cure" Nessa as Nessa tries to explain that's not what she was saying. But it's too late once a spell is cast, and the spells can't be undone. And it's yet another wrong Elphaba has done to her and another reason to resent her sister.
Besides the point- I just dont like Nessa because of her personality. She gives me spoiled brat vibes. I dont like how she treats Elphie.
Just wait for part 2.
That spoiled brat is also a disability stereotype it’s just all grim.
I'm going to need to reread the book to see how Nessa is treated.
Show and the book are very very different! Xx
@DisabledEliza I saw the show last year and struggled through the first half because it was so different. Then I reminded myself that the show is fanfic and enjoyed it. I am still interested in how Nessa was written.
@@PrinAnieIt's not great. Both Thropp sisters are portrayed with an aspect of body horror I think. Nessarose may be described as beautiful but there is an element of grotesque, which like I said isn't great in terms of representation I would think. Once Galinda enchants her shoes it is downright eerie how her movement is described.
I also liked to see in the large muscial numbers that there are other dancers on the cast with wheelchairs. Like this is just a part of the world rather than nessa being the only one.
Yessss I loved that!! There were disabled people playing lots of different roles it was amazing!
What cannot be expressed or explored in the condensed musical format is the idea of internalised ableism. Oz seems like the kind of society that would make Nessa feel wrong or deficient her whole life. You get a snippet of that mentality in the film when Glinda offers to help Elphaba with her ‘green problem’. But with Nessa you don’t get a lot of time to explore that the idea of wanting to be ‘normal’ was imprinted on her by both the pity and bullying she got all her life. I hope the second film does more to explore that, because someone in that kind of social and psychological hellscape might want nothing more to be normal - but I think you’d need time and the input of someone with authentic experience of being disabled to really portray that complexity well.
What makes Nessa's role in the stage musical so ick (beyond the ableism) is that it has always felt like a _"consolation role"_ to me. Having trained and worked in theatre and Musicals for 7 years, I've noticed that every actor (I know of) to be cast as Nessa Rose never really _audition_ for the role. In other words, it wasn't a role they were ever aiming for. Usually, it's those who don't get cast as Elphaba, but are considered too "good" to just be a soloist in the ensemble cast, that get cast in this role as a sort of "maybe next time..." That's why I'm so glad they cast a wheelchair user in the film. It's not a consolation; it's intentional! Not the biggest hit to ableism, but certainly a huge leap forward from the stage casting.
Omg I hadn’t ever thought of that side of it too!! She’s sort of just ‘second best’
I actually was expecting boq and nessa to have more story ¿¿¿ like the actors said in interviews, i thought boq would have a connection or appreciation for nessa but not really loving her the way she wants, and maybe portray nessa as someone with intrusive thoughts and an evil side, make this voice of evil grow so then in part two when she casts the spell it makes more sense, cause after what happened to elphaba she just started acting in this irrational way and out of control, she doesn't have her sister or her dad and even though boq is honest about his feelings, she just affirms that he's all she has and cant lose him so she starts to act more depending on him even though shes capable of taking care of herself, she needs him to stay and needs to be sure he wont leave
I'm happy to hear Marissa had some part in the writing and that there will be changes to the second part, the first act was always more enjoyable to me so I that makes me look forward to the second part a lot more.
Yess I always loved the first half way more than part 2 so I can’t wait!
They will probably go with a situation where she flies or levitates instead, but it’s still a “fix-it” moment. Could they have her regret her choices at one point? Maybe but at the end of the day, though, she remains problematic for representation, as she fits all the stereotypical tropes of an evil disabled person who needs to die.
On the other hand, this has inspired me to write my own story set in OZ where the character isn’t a villain or magically cured. I saw a comment where someone took their disabled son to see Wicked. They loved seeing Nessarose, but they had to leave out the part where Nessarose turns evil. Gosh, I hope the little ones won’t be too upset about that.
I’m thinking about how the first verse of the wicked witch of the east song would either be cut entirely or heavily rewritten to reflect the new characterization of nessarose and I tried to rewrite the lyrics (don’t expect it to be great)
All of my life, I've been chained up with you
How do you think that feels?
All of my life, I've been pitied and judged
Because of my chair with wheels
Scrounging for scraps of respect to pick up
And longing to free up my wheels
1998?! Oh, god, I'm old...
Im not a wheelchair user but Im disable and I love wicked cause of the message
It is a great message!
Once when i was out with my mum. This sales woman kept asking me everything. She just ignored my mum cause she was in a mobility buggy and assumed she was i dunno dumb or honestly ive no clue. It was all how can I help you, what are you looking for. My mum was looking for a dress and she told her. Back to me and what kind of dress is she looking for? Woman my mum just answered why are you still not adressing her. 🥺 My ma who is from Newcastle swore like a sailor and drove out the shop. 😂
Ya'll know Nessarose isn't supposed to have arms, right? They made her MORE able in the play and film.
Yes I know, however she is also presented very very differently in the book than the play!
Genuine question. If a wheelchair user was cast in the musical… how would they do the enchanted shoes scene?
1/3 of wheelchair users can walk
Super off topic, but your dogs are *so cute*
okay, how are they going to do her dance numbers in part two?
iirc the choreo for Nessa in the musical as originally done generally *can't* be done by wheelchair users several nights a week (if someone knows more about this, please correct me if I am wrong)
You are wrong.
@@DisabledEliza in that case, I am sorry.
I have spina bifida and walk with afo braces, sometimes use a mobility scooter. I love seeing ppl with disabilities being represented in movies/tv. If u havent seen it, watch the show Speechless. Played by actor with cp.
btw, cute dogs!!
I’m curious how things are now with accessibility in london? I visited there from LA in 2018 and found it difficult. Many tube stations without lifts and/or leveled platforms, some shops with only stairs.
Not much has changed since 2019 to be honest with you! Although we do now have the Elizabeth line which is all step free however it’s not really in an area that I use very often
The way Nessa is treated is why I can't really hate her the way a lot of fans do lol... Like, a lot of non disabled fans I think see how Nessa is treated and think she's being treated well????
but Nessa gets dehumanized just like Elphie does! They pity her and treat her like a burden. Like, it shows these two sisters are actually more alike that ppl think... Elphie gets bullied and shunned in a more aggressive way, she doesn't have any friends... but Nessa doesn't have friends either. everyone ignores her if theyre not yapping about how ~tragic~ she is. Elphaba mentions that the Oz Dust was the first party she's ever been to, Nessa says "Finally I'm about to have a fun night" when Boq asks her to the dance. Galinda picked Nessa as the one Boq would ask knowing that nobody else would have asked her. The governor treats Elphie like garbage and then he totally *babies* Nessa to the degree that I'm sure that even if she had friends, Nessa probably wouldn't have even been allowed to hang out with them often.
Like... Nessarose at the start honestly wasn't given the agency to be either Wicked or Good to begin with lol. The film does a good job of expanding on her character while still being faithful to the stage (one thing i noticed was she looked so conflicted and sad when they mock Elphie at the ball, even if she doesn't have it in her to help her, her showing sympathy for Elphie makes Elphie's love for HER feel stronger as well), and her just being allowed to react and get annoyed by the people pitying her makes her anger and resentment feel more natural.
Also if Boq has no haters I'm dead
A comment for the algorithm
Does anyone have any ideas about the part 2 story for Nessa? Can we have a lil creative brainstorm? I'm soooo interested to see what they'll do!
Ooo I have no idea!! I literally might just be that they change the nuances around how she feels about it? As that’s very much been changes in the play, it might be that boq isn’t like ‘right in off’ as soon as she can walk again, not sure! It might be that she doesn’t walk at all and has another form of flying apparatus! We willl have to wait and see haha!
@DisabledEliza OOOooo what if the shoes are enchanted as a protection spell? So if she loses them after the house landing on her, it removes the possibility of her surviving it!
In the wizard of Oz, the shoes are protected from the wicked witch. Wondering if they can only be given by a witch in order to be protected by that witch's enchantment? 🤔