Go to ground.news/jago to spot media bias and make sure you’re getting the full story. Subscribe through my link to get 50% off the Vantage subscription this month only.
I seem to remember a consultative document that proposed that Liverpool Street was turned into a bus/coach station and trains would have been scrapped and buses only on the route, this was back around 1976 or 1977, totally impractical but that's plans for you.
12:50 Customise your news remind me of the 90s sci-fi show Babylon 5 where captain Sheridan get a newspaper from the computer dispenser. It asks if he would like to customise his newspaper and he lists more topics including Sports.
@MichaelCampin No Michael, that was Marylebone, as a replacement for Victoria Coacj Station. I think it came close to happening. [...] Right, here's an article, which includes "The plans got as far as formal consultation": carolineld.blogspot.com/2016/10/marylebeon-coach-station.html
To extend the comparison with the Paris RER, in Paris in the 70's the historic food market was actually destroyed to make room for the transport hub that became "Châtelet - Les Halles", now the nevralgic center of the RER network ("Les Halles" meaning food market in French).
the inspiration from the Paris RER on the plan is clear, given that the French built the initial system’s main city hub on the site of Les Halles, which was the central wholesale market until it was decamped to the southern outskirts. presumably Covent Garden’s fate would have been very similar, with a massive new shopping centre on top, or perhaps even a proto-mini-Canary Wharf
On youtube somewhere there's a Thames TV report from the early 70s headed by Bill Grundy (sex pistols fame) and Tony Bastable (I think, as in Magpie). It discussed the Covent Garden plans after the market closed, and the one on the table was effectivwely demolition of the lot. 'Heritage' sites kept - probably just the Opera House and maybe Theatre Royal since a big road - dual carriageway was to be built from Drury Lane (maybe Kingsway?) straight to Trafalgar Sq. Just north of the Strand. And at a time when big ideas like the London box hadn't quite gone out of fashion. Anyway, Covent Garden would be pretty much no more. In which case a big rail station as well would have a nice brownfield site to be plonked.
1:58 To be accurate, 'the government' that ordered the Fleet Line be called the Jubilee Line was the Conservative controlled Greater London Council, not the national government.
Perhaps we can only be thankful for the impecunious state of Britain's economy in 1974, otherwise we may yet have had Covent Garden Grand Central, with the interchange below being opportunistically smothered by the Brutalist development some were itching to dump there.
I'm surprised Jago didn't mention that this plan would have also doomed Liverpool Street. At the time, BR's consultants were probably thinking of building another Euston Station, with a money-spinning office block over it.
@@caw25sha - I've heard that. But in the 1970s, it would have been possible to flatten Liverpool Street without a thought. London Euston is kind of like New York's Penn Station.
This reminds me of a similar case in Brisbane Australia. In 1965, the government hired an American transport planning consultancy to do a transport plan for the small, but rapidly growing city. This was around the time it was becoming the norm for the average person to own a car in Australia, and most cities were looking towards suburban expansion into cheap land on the outskirts of the established urban areas. As such, the Wilber Smith Transport plan of 1965 was an american style, freeway focused plan. While the vast majority of the proposed freeways were never built, it's long term influences are undeniable, and it has become infamous for the removal of our tram network and often blamed as being a major reason why Brisbane is such a car dependent city. However, what a lot of people dont know is that Wilbur Smith also produced a Public Transport Plan in 1970, and what is especially interesting about this plan was that they recognised significance deficiencies in the existing rail network that would need to be addressed in the future. The 1970 PT plan proposed an additional rail crossing under the Brisbane river, following a route that would start at a major southern rail junction and bring rail services through the heart of the city's major comercial centres (as the current heavy rail line skirted the edges of the CBD). It would have added significant rail capacity to the inner city. Of course, this was never built, but now, 50 years later, Brisbane is building Cross River Rail. This project starts at the same southern junction, crosses the same river, brings heavy rail to the heart of the CBD and will provide vital inner city capacity required to make further network expansion beyond the inner city viable. Of course it isnt a 1:1 match of that original proposal from 1970, but it's incredibly close.
Oh dear, as much as it pains me to find a difference of recollection in a Hazzard production, it's my belief that it was Horace Cutler, leader of the then Greater London Council who insisted on the name change from Fleet Line to Jubilee Line. The change was widely viewed as nothing more than an attempt to curry favour with the powers that be.
She once swept an admiral right off his feet, The ships on her hips made his heart skip a beat, And now the old boy's in command of the Fleet, 'Cos he went and married Lydia... - 'Lydia the Tattooed Lady' memorably performed by Groucho Marx (and later, Kermit the Frog)
The covent garden location for the central interchange has many parallels with Chatelet-Les Halles of the Paris RER. One can't help but think they were inspired
A line stopping at Victoria, Westminster, Charing Cross, Ludgate, Moorgate would be an excellent addition to the transport system (and would connect with all lines, unlike Elizabeth line which avoids Victoria line)
Really interesting, remember coming to London in the 70s and seeing the old market at Covent Garden so probably made sense for regeneration but walking around it yesterday it seems crazy, a 70s train station at Covent Garden
There wouldn't be a need to actually demolish the Market Building at Covent Garden. Especially when one could convert the building into a Station and build the Platforms Underground. It would also mean that the inadequacies of Covent Garden Tube Station could finally be addressed.
The lack of intersections with the Piccadilly line (and its express line, the Victoria) in the central section is possibly the biggest frustration of the selected route of Crossrail. It certainly makes Crossrail completely redundant for those on the Picc in Western section and Northern extremities. For those concerned about the risk of losing Covent Garden in such a scheme - the's a great argument for retention of the original building (structural exterior shell) as the station entrance, with an underground tunnel to link it to the Picc station.
Covent Garden station was to have a second entrance/exit. LU wanted to put it in Neal Street but the locals protested (including my wife who lived there then) because Neal St is too narrow and the entrance would have destroyed many historical buildings. Interestingly, LU owned the property directly opposite the station, which would have made a great exit and like the actual one, opens onto Long Acre, which is a main road. When I worked at the station, LU leased the property very cheaply to Littlewoods (or something similar). As this was in 1998-2000, I now see (on Google maps) that this is now Boots the chemist.
the southern line curves away from the lines out of london bridge to meet them again at right angles at new cross gate. they'd do that to tunnel onto lewisham.
The map shows it following the route of the Bricklayers Arms (freight only) line, south of London Bridge, which was still in operation when the report was written. I rather doubt that they would have built an even longer tunnel, all the way back to the Brighton & Southeastern main lines, when there was already a working railway on the surface at the time.
@@ten-bob-note thanks -that would explain why they thought goods trains might use the line, if it is fed by an exclusive goods line. I just had the proposed bakerloo extension on my mind which might tunnel from new cross to lewisham, 2 important interchange points, and wondered if this line had similar ambitions given the then curious angle of the line. but no.
I was also puzzled about angle of the line, at London Bridge, until I zoomed in on the map and saw that the sweeping curve brought it into direct alignment with the (at the time massive) goods terminus at Bricklayers Arms. The Bricklayers Arms line had direct links to both New Cross and New Cross Gate back in 1974.
Btw, Covent Garden is more than a ‘shopping centre’. It’s a tourist hell hole… No, seriously, it’s a beautiful bit of history that we nearly lost - twice!
So apparently Crossrail (as we now know it’s the Elizabeth Line) never came to Covent Garden and Covent Garden missed out on having Crossrail. Perhaps Crossrail 2 could serve Covent Garden as well as to serve Chelsea with a brand new station.
Heathrow have changed a lot in the last 50 years. Abbey Wood probably hasn't but I think ESE London (Woolwich eastwards) is in massive need of regeneration still
Although I agree Woolwich has seen better days (the Open Market was buzzing on Saturdays back in the 1960s), it's no worse than other shopping centres in the area. Bexleyheath, Dartford, Eltham, Sidcup, Swanley and Welling all look down at heel, to out it politely. Have a shuftie at 'Toby & John's Transport History' to bring back a few memories .... including just how awful the Woolwich Road was before the A2 /A102 improvements!
Thanks for your really informative and clear videos - can you do one on Victoria Station please which I think is especially interesting given that it is actually two connected stations - thanks again.
it's worth taking a look at the 1991 Crossrail scheme, whose core section is the same as the Elizabeth Line but instead of a branch to Heathrow, it would have taken over the Metropolitan line to Amersham and Aylesbury.
Why did it occur to no-one that what the rest of the country needs is express through trains across London so we can have much quicker (for example) Norwich to Bristol services? All the Elizabeth line has done is driven up house prices (even further) within the M25.
The idea then and probably today is they don't want people passing through London quickly but to change modes of transport and spend some money in London. The only current North South connection is HS1 at St Pancras and Eurostar but one still has to change trains and maybe buy something. Even HS2 will be a subsurface Station between Euston and St Pancras.
I have been asking myself this for decades. I live in Berlin now and we have mainline tracks north-south and east-west. They carry "regional expresses" much like the Lizzie line and proper main line ICEs, meaning that you can do the equivalent of getting a train from Bristol through to Liverpool Street. When crossrail was first announced, I was amazed that this wasn't considered. Yes it would have increased the cost, needing additional platforms at some stations and passing loops at others, but the benefits would have been enormous
Because the demand for a service from Bristol to Norwich would be in the hundreds per week whereas the rail services in the south east are simply much busier as travelling by road is difficult in urban areas with inadequate roads. The Elizabeth line extends beyond the M25 allowing commuters from Reading to get into London for example. The fact is that London is both a major international city and has to deal with commuters and tourists alike. Norwich is a rather lovely backwater but is never going to justify large investment in public transportation. As for Bristol, it’s more overpriced than London in that house prices are a greater multiple of earnings, as salaries are relatively low by national standards.
I can’t remember dates and details well enough, but I wonder if these plans coincided with the plans that almost destroyed Covent Garden as an area and were stopped by a group of residents.
The map shows the southern line curving round to surface at Bricklayers Arms good station, which needs it's own video. That make sense as it's at ground level and then links up to the lines from London Bridge which are on a viaduct. It strikes me that some of these stations are too close together, assuming Elizabeth Line length trains and as stations are expensive, you can see how closer scrutiny would have removed say Marble Arch as a viable station. Let them use Taxis, as I'm sure someone in Mayfair said at the time.
Given the various hoo-hah's about knocking down St Pancras, rebuilding Liverpool Street, probably all driven by the pigs-ear they made of Euston, I could see that "a fuss" might have been made about knocking down Covent Garden. So I think it possible that the above ground area could have been turned into an entrance way for a largely under ground stop on these lines had they gone ahead. Where theres a will etc, etc. You might still have got the London Transport museum and who knows, it might have been doing more business. The freight thing has peaked my curiosity though. Moving people around with accessibility et al has obviously been at the heart of London Terminii and the Underground. You've covered one or two cases where freight was actually move around on Underground lines but there must be another history of goods - yards, through routes and so on. Where does the freight go these days - there still is some. 50 odd years ago (pre-tunnel) I came across a French (SNCF) parcel van at Oxford station. How did that get there?
If only Crossrail could have come lot earlier that it still would have been called Crossrail. But at least that we now got the Elizabeth Line and there are plans for Crossrail 2 to be built that would go from North East London to South West London with a brand new station at Chelsea. Which would make it lot easier to get to places like Chelsea that doesn't have a Underground station apart from there are few Underground stations that do serve Chelsea.
Given that the line at Covent Garden was underground, why would it have been necessary to demolish Covent Garden? Couldn’t the entrances have been built into the existing surface buildings?
I suspect it would’ve been a lot cheaper and a lot better. I’m also of an age when I can recall the original veg market and before the Victoria line. My overwhelming memory is of a programme (BBC2) called ‘ ‘Aquarius’?all about the final days of the original Covent Garden? Only a kid at the time, of course...
As a later Crossrail scheme (again not the one actually built) had Reading and Aylsebury as the western termini and only a line through London Bridge I don't think Abbey Road and Heathrow were anywhere near being on the list.
I don't think they would have destroyed the Covent Garden buildings. I think they would have left them there and dug escalator shafts between them to turn them into the interchange station building. Construction would have been managed similar to the end of the original Jubilee Line. The escalators down would have pointed towards Leicester Square. The existing station at Leicester Square would have been connected to the two new lines. The existing Covernt Garden station would have been closed, with trains going straight trough, as the new exit would replace that station. Nobody cared about disabled people back then so that station and the other stations would all have been built with no accessibility. I agree with you about the small platforms, although they would be thin and long platforms. There would have been no Platform Edge Doors. The lines would have been as successful as the actual Crossrail and within a couple of years the platforms would have become so overcrowded that people would either be falling in front of trains during the rush hour or there would be similar emergency closures to the ones that Oxford Street had. The London Transport Museum could have still be put at Covernt Garden. Most of the market we know would be gone, but there would be some shops around the outside of the station. I disagree with you slightly on the station between Bond Street and Oxford Circus. The actual Crossrail built that without a direct connection to Oxford Circus station because of the overcrowding and emergency closures. The London Rail Study people would not have taken that into account and would have combined both stations into one big station. Because this station would have predated the Jubilee Line being built, we would have had escalators pointing towards Oxford Circus and the closure of the Central Line platforms. When the Jubilee Line was built, it would have been bolted onto the combined station. The construction site and station entrance might have been moved to Queen Victoria's Elephant House. The "Bond Street Curse" (dodgy geology below Bond Street) would still have delayed the original Crossrail and the modified Jubilee Line. Costs would have gone up to numbers far lower than the original projections for the actual Crossrail. The person managing the London Rail Study version of the project would probably have been sacked. The Evening Standard would have made a big deal about this. Within a couple of years of the lines opening people would have forgotten about the delays and would be complaining about safety and then accessibility.
It is interesting that the proposals didn't include a link to Heathrow, and that it is not obvious how an upgrade to connect to Docklands would have worked. There would also have needed to be an upgrade to connect with Eurostar services. I'd suggest that we are far better off with what we ultimately got.
There wasn't a Gatwick Express until 1984 either. Previously, in 1978 BR(S) had modified a dozen 4VEPs, gave them extra luggage racks and the soubriquet 4VEG (no really, they were!) and the TOPS designation Class 427, until converted back after 1984
I remember Crossrail in 1974. People were VERY cross about British Rail in 1974. Not me though, I could go to London for 50p each way by saying to the Station guys that I had come from the previous station and handing them a shiny 50p piece. They never smiled though.
@@bostonrailfan2427 Given the level of vandalism BR inflicted on Euston Station only 11 years earlier against massive public outcry, I think BR were quite capable of further damage.
there is something about upper level governments getting their fingers (and those of their corporate donors) all sticky when it comes to people being able to get to their jobs, from the places they are forced to live, because their corporate donors have bought up and "redeveloped" all the land, living quarters and places that used to provide work... that people moved into, to be near the jobs they used to have. )i'm sure there is a more elegant, less cumbersome way to say that)
That route would be duplicate too much exciting cir le line. Marble arch, Canonstreet little pointless. Souther route little use for southern london as more bakerloo, northern or Victoria line would be, Both routes have cross platform exchange ?
Whato Oh come Jago. Elizabeth and Southern? You can do better than that. How about Elizabeth and Philip? Then other new lines could have been called Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward. Mmm; perhaps not Andrew now.
Heathrow has changed a lot in the last 50 years. Abbey Wood probably hasn't but I think ESE London (Woolwich eastwards) is in massive need of regeneration still
Abbey Wood? Not so much in the past 30 years, but I do remember it pre-flyover, when the level crossing was still in use and London Transport's Abbey Wood *AW* bus garage (a former L.C.C tram depot) was in operation.
Go to ground.news/jago to spot media bias and make sure you’re getting the full story. Subscribe through my link to get 50% off the Vantage subscription this month only.
I seem to remember a consultative document that proposed that Liverpool Street was turned into a bus/coach station and trains would have been scrapped and buses only on the route, this was back around 1976 or 1977, totally impractical but that's plans for you.
12:50 Customise your news remind me of the 90s sci-fi show Babylon 5 where captain Sheridan get a newspaper from the computer dispenser.
It asks if he would like to customise his newspaper and he lists more topics including Sports.
@MichaelCampin No Michael, that was Marylebone, as a replacement for Victoria Coacj Station. I think it came close to happening.
[...] Right, here's an article, which includes "The plans got as far as formal consultation": carolineld.blogspot.com/2016/10/marylebeon-coach-station.html
@@bfappleYes, how dare he try and make an income from his videos!
@bfapple So what? There are plenty of youtubers who include adverts. Jago is a full time youtuber, it is up to him to maximise his revenue.
I am glad that this didn't happen! I really like the Covent Garden area as it is!
Hopefully they would have left covent garden untouched and remodeled Leicester Square...
@@ludoviclemaignen9432 we will never know!
Not sure if/when Covent Garden Market became a listed building. After this report I assume.
To extend the comparison with the Paris RER, in Paris in the 70's the historic food market was actually destroyed to make room for the transport hub that became "Châtelet - Les Halles", now the nevralgic center of the RER network ("Les Halles" meaning food market in French).
'Les Halles", a trap for the Englishman trying to speak French. No elision ...
Im so glad Covent Garde did not get destroyed. It is beautiful.
"Enough of your foolish speculation, Hazard!"
A brief image of sword sticks, unnecessary moustaches and Edwardian tomfoolery went through my mind.
Someone complaining about the writing of *King Solomon's Mines* to its author, I think 😂
the inspiration from the Paris RER on the plan is clear, given that the French built the initial system’s main city hub on the site of Les Halles, which was the central wholesale market until it was decamped to the southern outskirts. presumably Covent Garden’s fate would have been very similar, with a massive new shopping centre on top, or perhaps even a proto-mini-Canary Wharf
Wait is that where that skyscrapers pompidou wanted is😊
On youtube somewhere there's a Thames TV report from the early 70s headed by Bill Grundy (sex pistols fame) and Tony Bastable (I think, as in Magpie). It discussed the Covent Garden plans after the market closed, and the one on the table was effectivwely demolition of the lot. 'Heritage' sites kept - probably just the Opera House and maybe Theatre Royal since a big road - dual carriageway was to be built from Drury Lane (maybe Kingsway?) straight to Trafalgar Sq. Just north of the Strand. And at a time when big ideas like the London box hadn't quite gone out of fashion. Anyway, Covent Garden would be pretty much no more. In which case a big rail station as well would have a nice brownfield site to be plonked.
Thanks Jago for all your videos ! Wishing you a very Merry Christmas & a Happy New Year !
I may be two hours late, but it’s never too late to watch another master piece from Jago Hazzard :)
Thanks!
And thank you!
Thanks
And thank you!
Thank you! All these ideas being bandied about at the time I was leaving, compared to what is there every time I visit.
Happy Christmas Jago! Another fascinating video! Thanks all always! All the best for more great vlogs next year 🎉
You've got me reminiscent of regularly racing friends up the Covent Garden stairs now. Something you can only do as a teenager!
Aaaw! You should have used Elizabeth Line and Philip Line...
I'd have called it the Corgi Line 😅
Or Elizabeth II line, kinda like a sequel 😆
@@caw25shais that one of the new line names for the Overground? 🤣😎
Or Charles Line? Probably that will be what the next one is called.
The Elizabeth Line should be called the Charles Line
Fascinating. Thank you. And I'm really looking forward to the other videos, very much hope that's in the plural.
1:58 To be accurate, 'the government' that ordered the Fleet Line be called the Jubilee Line was the Conservative controlled Greater London Council, not the national government.
What a lovely pair of documents they are as well - I'm seeing a proto-Network South East logo design there!
Thank you Jago!
Perhaps we can only be thankful for the impecunious state of Britain's economy in 1974, otherwise we may yet have had Covent Garden Grand Central, with the interchange below being opportunistically smothered by the Brutalist development some were itching to dump there.
I'm surprised Jago didn't mention that this plan would have also doomed Liverpool Street. At the time, BR's consultants were probably thinking of building another Euston Station, with a money-spinning office block over it.
@@pacificostudios That's what's being planned now, and getting all the John Betjeman types in a tizzy.
@@caw25sha - I've heard that. But in the 1970s, it would have been possible to flatten Liverpool Street without a thought. London Euston is kind of like New York's Penn Station.
Going by the map, it looks to me like the Eastern end of the "Southern" line would have resurfaced on the lines going out of Bricklayers Arms.
This reminds me of a similar case in Brisbane Australia. In 1965, the government hired an American transport planning consultancy to do a transport plan for the small, but rapidly growing city. This was around the time it was becoming the norm for the average person to own a car in Australia, and most cities were looking towards suburban expansion into cheap land on the outskirts of the established urban areas.
As such, the Wilber Smith Transport plan of 1965 was an american style, freeway focused plan. While the vast majority of the proposed freeways were never built, it's long term influences are undeniable, and it has become infamous for the removal of our tram network and often blamed as being a major reason why Brisbane is such a car dependent city.
However, what a lot of people dont know is that Wilbur Smith also produced a Public Transport Plan in 1970, and what is especially interesting about this plan was that they recognised significance deficiencies in the existing rail network that would need to be addressed in the future.
The 1970 PT plan proposed an additional rail crossing under the Brisbane river, following a route that would start at a major southern rail junction and bring rail services through the heart of the city's major comercial centres (as the current heavy rail line skirted the edges of the CBD). It would have added significant rail capacity to the inner city.
Of course, this was never built, but now, 50 years later, Brisbane is building Cross River Rail. This project starts at the same southern junction, crosses the same river, brings heavy rail to the heart of the CBD and will provide vital inner city capacity required to make further network expansion beyond the inner city viable. Of course it isnt a 1:1 match of that original proposal from 1970, but it's incredibly close.
Oh dear, as much as it pains me to find a difference of recollection in a Hazzard production, it's my belief that it was Horace Cutler, leader of the then Greater London Council who insisted on the name change from Fleet Line to Jubilee Line. The change was widely viewed as nothing more than an attempt to curry favour with the powers that be.
She once swept an admiral right off his feet,
The ships on her hips made his heart skip a beat,
And now the old boy's in command of the Fleet,
'Cos he went and married Lydia...
- 'Lydia the Tattooed Lady' memorably performed by Groucho Marx (and later, Kermit the Frog)
I’m very happy that they kept Covent Garden.
The covent garden location for the central interchange has many parallels with Chatelet-Les Halles of the Paris RER. One can't help but think they were inspired
Surely the other line should be known as the Charles Line as it is a curved one forming the letter "C" .. like a curved ball! 🤣
6:31 Presumably the "Holborn" in this case is Holborn Viaduct Station
9:11 this seals it: it’s linked to the loss of Holborn Viaduct/creation of City Thwneslink
Blimey, I didn’t know they were looking at getting rid of Covent Garden market!! I’m so glad they didn’t!!
5:08 There's something about the style that makes it look like a proposal from 1907!
A line stopping at Victoria, Westminster, Charing Cross, Ludgate, Moorgate would be an excellent addition to the transport system (and would connect with all lines, unlike Elizabeth line which avoids Victoria line)
Really interesting, remember coming to London in the 70s and seeing the old market at Covent Garden so probably made sense for regeneration but walking around it yesterday it seems crazy, a 70s train station at Covent Garden
“every one of them is worth a video itself”
well then, you know what to do! you tease us but will spoil us eventually 😎
Remember that the Jubilee Line was the Fleet Line during it's conception and construction
0:31 - That was almost my exact view of Jean-Michel Jarre’s ‘Destination Docklands’ concert back in 1988!
I remember being squarer on to the warehouse as the backdrop to the stage
There wouldn't be a need to actually demolish the Market Building at Covent Garden. Especially when one could convert the building into a Station and build the Platforms Underground.
It would also mean that the inadequacies of Covent Garden Tube Station could finally be addressed.
The lack of intersections with the Piccadilly line (and its express line, the Victoria) in the central section is possibly the biggest frustration of the selected route of Crossrail. It certainly makes Crossrail completely redundant for those on the Picc in Western section and Northern extremities.
For those concerned about the risk of losing Covent Garden in such a scheme - the's a great argument for retention of the original building (structural exterior shell) as the station entrance, with an underground tunnel to link it to the Picc station.
If you compare the Elizabeth Line we got, plus the Crossrail 2 proposed route with this plan, it's surprising how similar it is really.
Covent Garden station was to have a second entrance/exit. LU wanted to put it in Neal Street but the locals protested (including my wife who lived there then) because Neal St is too narrow and the entrance would have destroyed many historical buildings. Interestingly, LU owned the property directly opposite the station, which would have made a great exit and like the actual one, opens onto Long Acre, which is a main road. When I worked at the station, LU leased the property very cheaply to Littlewoods (or something similar). As this was in 1998-2000, I now see (on Google maps) that this is now Boots the chemist.
the southern line curves away from the lines out of london bridge to meet them again at right angles at new cross gate. they'd do that to tunnel onto lewisham.
The map shows it following the route of the Bricklayers Arms (freight only) line, south of London Bridge, which was still in operation when the report was written.
I rather doubt that they would have built an even longer tunnel, all the way back to the Brighton & Southeastern main lines, when there was already a working railway on the surface at the time.
@@ten-bob-note thanks -that would explain why they thought goods trains might use the line, if it is fed by an exclusive goods line. I just had the proposed bakerloo extension on my mind which might tunnel from new cross to lewisham, 2 important interchange points, and wondered if this line had similar ambitions given the then curious angle of the line. but no.
I was also puzzled about angle of the line, at London Bridge, until I zoomed in on the map and saw that the sweeping curve brought it into direct alignment with the (at the time massive) goods terminus at Bricklayers Arms.
The Bricklayers Arms line had direct links to both New Cross and New Cross Gate back in 1974.
so beautiful 😊
2:33 Abbey Wood, but I won't! LOL😁
Btw, Covent Garden is more than a ‘shopping centre’. It’s a tourist hell hole…
No, seriously, it’s a beautiful bit of history that we nearly lost - twice!
So did they protect both routes, and if so is the southern route still mostly available?
So apparently Crossrail (as we now know it’s the Elizabeth Line) never came to Covent Garden and Covent Garden missed out on having Crossrail. Perhaps Crossrail 2 could serve Covent Garden as well as to serve Chelsea with a brand new station.
Looking forward the various iterations of North-South Crossrail
The video is in the queue!
Heathrow have changed a lot in the last 50 years. Abbey Wood probably hasn't but I think ESE London (Woolwich eastwards) is in massive need of regeneration still
Although I agree Woolwich has seen better days (the Open Market was buzzing on Saturdays back in the 1960s), it's no worse than other shopping centres in the area. Bexleyheath, Dartford, Eltham, Sidcup, Swanley and Welling all look down at heel, to out it politely.
Have a shuftie at 'Toby & John's Transport History' to bring back a few memories .... including just how awful the Woolwich Road was before the A2 /A102 improvements!
Thanks for your really informative and clear videos - can you do one on Victoria Station please which I think is especially interesting given that it is actually two connected stations - thanks again.
it's worth taking a look at the 1991 Crossrail scheme, whose core section is the same as the Elizabeth Line but instead of a branch to Heathrow, it would have taken over the Metropolitan line to Amersham and Aylesbury.
Why did it occur to no-one that what the rest of the country needs is express through trains across London so we can have much quicker (for example) Norwich to Bristol services? All the Elizabeth line has done is driven up house prices (even further) within the M25.
There is a South Midlands line (no idea what name it'll get) under construction. The western part is said to be ready.
The idea then and probably today is they don't want people passing through London quickly but to change modes of transport and spend some money in London. The only current North South connection is HS1 at St Pancras and Eurostar but one still has to change trains and maybe buy something. Even HS2 will be a subsurface Station between Euston and St Pancras.
@@tonys1636 Yes, I heard there was a train service to St Pancras Shopping Centre 😃
I have been asking myself this for decades. I live in Berlin now and we have mainline tracks north-south and east-west. They carry "regional expresses" much like the Lizzie line and proper main line ICEs, meaning that you can do the equivalent of getting a train from Bristol through to Liverpool Street. When crossrail was first announced, I was amazed that this wasn't considered. Yes it would have increased the cost, needing additional platforms at some stations and passing loops at others, but the benefits would have been enormous
Because the demand for a service from Bristol to Norwich would be in the hundreds per week whereas the rail services in the south east are simply much busier as travelling by road is difficult in urban areas with inadequate roads. The Elizabeth line extends beyond the M25 allowing commuters from Reading to get into London for example. The fact is that London is both a major international city and has to deal with commuters and tourists alike. Norwich is a rather lovely backwater but is never going to justify large investment in public transportation. As for Bristol, it’s more overpriced than London in that house prices are a greater multiple of earnings, as salaries are relatively low by national standards.
I can’t remember dates and details well enough, but I wonder if these plans coincided with the plans that almost destroyed Covent Garden as an area and were stopped by a group of residents.
The map shows the southern line curving round to surface at Bricklayers Arms good station, which needs it's own video. That make sense as it's at ground level and then links up to the lines from London Bridge which are on a viaduct. It strikes me that some of these stations are too close together, assuming Elizabeth Line length trains and as stations are expensive, you can see how closer scrutiny would have removed say Marble Arch as a viable station. Let them use Taxis, as I'm sure someone in Mayfair said at the time.
What was the western terminus of 1974 Cross Rail?
Interesting in what could have happened Jago!!! 🤔🚂🚂🚂
You are my hung parliament to my Sir Reg Goldwin. What could have been, we shall never now.
The Ludgate/Blackfriars/Holborn blob leaves me wondering if it could have ended up as much of a mess as Chatelet-Les Halles over in Paris.
Given the various hoo-hah's about knocking down St Pancras, rebuilding Liverpool Street, probably all driven by the pigs-ear they made of Euston, I could see that "a fuss" might have been made about knocking down Covent Garden. So I think it possible that the above ground area could have been turned into an entrance way for a largely under ground stop on these lines had they gone ahead. Where theres a will etc, etc. You might still have got the London Transport museum and who knows, it might have been doing more business.
The freight thing has peaked my curiosity though. Moving people around with accessibility et al has obviously been at the heart of London Terminii and the Underground. You've covered one or two cases where freight was actually move around on Underground lines but there must be another history of goods - yards, through routes and so on. Where does the freight go these days - there still is some. 50 odd years ago (pre-tunnel) I came across a French (SNCF) parcel van at Oxford station. How did that get there?
If only Crossrail could have come lot earlier that it still would have been called Crossrail. But at least that we now got the Elizabeth Line and there are plans for Crossrail 2 to be built that would go from North East London to South West London with a brand new station at Chelsea. Which would make it lot easier to get to places like Chelsea that doesn't have a Underground station apart from there are few Underground stations that do serve Chelsea.
Given that the line at Covent Garden was underground, why would it have been necessary to demolish Covent Garden? Couldn’t the entrances have been built into the existing surface buildings?
'Abandoned market' sounds like it was some kind of front🚓
I suspect it would’ve been a lot cheaper and a lot better. I’m also of an age when
I can recall the original veg market and before the Victoria line. My overwhelming memory is of a programme (BBC2) called ‘ ‘Aquarius’?all about the final days of the original Covent Garden? Only a kid at the time, of course...
As a later Crossrail scheme (again not the one actually built) had Reading and Aylsebury as the western termini and only a line through London Bridge I don't think Abbey Road and Heathrow were anywhere near being on the list.
If it had gone to Abbey Road they'd have called it ZebraCrossingRail.
@@caw25sha Subconcious Beatles fan slip. Ooops! 😁
I don't think they would have destroyed the Covent Garden buildings. I think they would have left them there and dug escalator shafts between them to turn them into the interchange station building.
Construction would have been managed similar to the end of the original Jubilee Line. The escalators down would have pointed towards Leicester Square. The existing station at Leicester Square would have been connected to the two new lines. The existing Covernt Garden station would have been closed, with trains going straight trough, as the new exit would replace that station.
Nobody cared about disabled people back then so that station and the other stations would all have been built with no accessibility. I agree with you about the small platforms, although they would be thin and long platforms. There would have been no Platform Edge Doors. The lines would have been as successful as the actual Crossrail and within a couple of years the platforms would have become so overcrowded that people would either be falling in front of trains during the rush hour or there would be similar emergency closures to the ones that Oxford Street had.
The London Transport Museum could have still be put at Covernt Garden. Most of the market we know would be gone, but there would be some shops around the outside of the station.
I disagree with you slightly on the station between Bond Street and Oxford Circus. The actual Crossrail built that without a direct connection to Oxford Circus station because of the overcrowding and emergency closures. The London Rail Study people would not have taken that into account and would have combined both stations into one big station. Because this station would have predated the Jubilee Line being built, we would have had escalators pointing towards Oxford Circus and the closure of the Central Line platforms. When the Jubilee Line was built, it would have been bolted onto the combined station. The construction site and station entrance might have been moved to Queen Victoria's Elephant House. The "Bond Street Curse" (dodgy geology below Bond Street) would still have delayed the original Crossrail and the modified Jubilee Line. Costs would have gone up to numbers far lower than the original projections for the actual Crossrail. The person managing the London Rail Study version of the project would probably have been sacked. The Evening Standard would have made a big deal about this. Within a couple of years of the lines opening people would have forgotten about the delays and would be complaining about safety and then accessibility.
Is it just me or does the rail map look like a cross? Is that where ❌Crossrail got its original name?
🤔
It is interesting that the proposals didn't include a link to Heathrow, and that it is not obvious how an upgrade to connect to Docklands would have worked. There would also have needed to be an upgrade to connect with Eurostar services. I'd suggest that we are far better off with what we ultimately got.
There wasn't a Gatwick Express until 1984 either. Previously, in 1978 BR(S) had modified a dozen 4VEPs, gave them extra luggage racks and the soubriquet 4VEG (no really, they were!) and the TOPS designation Class 427, until converted back after 1984
Time for the Philip Line to be built Brentford to Thamesmead.
good morning jago
I dont know, it looks like that "Elizabeth Line" might connect to the East London Line for New Cross - to Hayes ?
What will be, will be.
Definitely dodged a bullet with some of these plans!
A Victoria-Charring Cross-Bank-London Bridge Crossrail Line wouldn't be such a bad idea to be honest.
Covent garden could have had the EXACT same fate as Les Halles in Paris
I think I like the route of the southern line.
The Charles line ??
at the rate things are going, it’s going to be the William Line
@@bostonrailfan2427 More like the George Line.
@ …good point
Like Battlestar Galactica 1980, best forgotten
Better late than never 😜🤪😀
Crossrail 2 still lingering out in Limbo/Purgatory
A rail study is just train spotting that costs money
I remember Crossrail in 1974. People were VERY cross about British Rail in 1974. Not me though, I could go to London for 50p each way by saying to the Station guys that I had come from the previous station and handing them a shiny 50p piece. They never smiled though.
Covent Garden could have been repurposed as a Station rather than Demolished.
Maybe, but I doubt BR would have.
@@stephenlee5929maybe not with enough pressure from historical preservationists…
it’s rife for just that: plenty of space for passengers, retail, platforms, and is already a landmark
@@bostonrailfan2427 Given the level of vandalism BR inflicted on Euston Station only 11 years earlier against massive public outcry, I think BR were quite capable of further damage.
@@stephenlee5929 true...
so ludgate hill was Blackfriars.
What would this mean for the west end
there is something about upper level governments getting their fingers
(and those of their corporate donors) all sticky when it comes to people being able
to get to their jobs, from the places they are forced to live,
because their corporate donors have bought up and "redeveloped"
all the land, living quarters and places that used to provide work...
that people moved into, to be near the jobs they used to have.
)i'm sure there is a more elegant, less cumbersome way to say that)
4th - thought i was 3rd
Hooray!
2nd
👍🏻🇬🇧👀...
That route would be duplicate too much exciting cir le line. Marble arch, Canonstreet little pointless. Souther route little use for southern london as more bakerloo, northern or Victoria line would be, Both routes have cross platform exchange ?
1st?
Seven words or more for the algorithm. Slava Ukraine ! 🇺🇦
And that comment is relevant to the subject of the video how, exactly?
It’s not relevant to the subject. It’s support in general for the channel. Slava Ukraine ! 🇺🇦
micky hazard?
"Reflect from your shadow."
What meaningless drivel is this?
Whato
Oh come Jago. Elizabeth and Southern? You can do better than that. How about Elizabeth and Philip? Then other new lines could have been called Charles, Anne, Andrew and Edward. Mmm; perhaps not Andrew now.
Heathrow has changed a lot in the last 50 years. Abbey Wood probably hasn't but I think ESE London (Woolwich eastwards) is in massive need of regeneration still
Abbey Wood? Not so much in the past 30 years, but I do remember it pre-flyover, when the level crossing was still in use and London Transport's Abbey Wood *AW* bus garage (a former L.C.C tram depot) was in operation.