4:28+ My two-penn'orth on scoring without key signatures: in 55 years of playing, I have *never* seen key-signatureless orchestral parts - including session parts - *except* for French Horns, which vary. One of the first thing an orchestral player learns is to read the key signature and remember it. That is *never* an issue. Horn players cope quite happily with whatever they get given. However, there are things that the score-preparer or orchestrator needs to know that will make the player's life infinitely easier: *Always* make key signature changes clear and obvious: a good way is to use double barlines at that point, as a double bar line attracts the player's attention.. If your key signature change falls at the beginning of a line, *always* completely cancel the existing key signature at the end of the previous line. Some experts say that you should always cancel the previous key signature wherever the change occurs. Other experts say you don't need to cancel most changes, but you do need to cancel others - which is confusing tor the orchestrator. My suggestion - which is the one that I come across 99% of the time - is simple and consistent. If you have an out-of-key accidental in a bar & the next occurrence of the note is in the next bar but with no accidental, *always* indicate what the note that you want actually is in that next bar. In my experience, amateur players will never notice that the next note is not the same as the previous note. For example, the key signature is C major. In one bar you have F#, but in the next bar you want an F natural: *always* mark that 2nd note with a natural, otherwise a lot of players will play another F#... If you are using out-of-key accidentals, *please* make them relevant to the actual key signature. Some scoring programs default to sharps, when flats are needed.... These are the principles I use in my own scores, and I have never had a complaint next. About the notes - yes. About how they are displayed - no.
Thanks, Dan. I’m currently in the process of doing exactly this - Logic to Dorico 4 - so I appreciate the tips. Would definitely love to see an orchestrator’s workflow. Would also love to see some more Dorico 4 engraving tips if you’ve got some more gems in that department. Cheers and thanks so much for sharing all that you do!
I really enjoyed this presentation and found it quite helpful. I have recently converted to Dorico from Finale and my workflow has rapidly increased. Watching this full process helped me out a bit, but I need to read more into the MIDI import settings in Dorico in order to take full advantage of the tools it offers. I would love to see additional videos like this, Dan. Thanks so much! (P.S. My new MacBook M1Max with 64GB RAM just arrived today. I’m transferring files and hope to get to work with it tomorrow morning.)
Thanks for this little walk through your process, Dan! Beautifully done and wonderfully informative-and I would love to see how an orchestrator might bring that to the next level!
Whatever works for you is the right way to do it. I tried your approach since beginning my composition, but got stuck a lot and din‘t know how to proceed. No I started with a piano sketch of the whole piece and working my way up to full score within MuseScore. It worked tremendously better right off the bat. I think this is my way to go.
Hey Dan, I hope you’re doing well. What a great video, Thanks so much. Yes, I’m so interested to know how a professional orchestrator would work on this 👌
Really great video-I also use Logic and Dorico, and found your short-cuts very insightful! I'd be interested to see how you take this midi file and "improve it" when working with a real orchestrator =)
Watching this 8 months later. I feel like a lot of people are kind of sleeping on Studio One. They have a pretty seamless integration with notation inside their DAW. You can write notation and setup key switches to work all within the DAW if you choose to. Or you can completely ignore the notation and just write midi and it will still fill in the notation
when Cubase 12 Pro and beyond seamlessly merges Dorico with the score editor we could all have a celebration in actually editing live recordings and making changes. Build it Steinberg and that next version will come.
I play by ear with only a book one piano training. I want to write for orchestra What is the best DAW or notation software that easily scores whatever I play and that score can be ready for an orchestra?.
Thanks for sharing your process! I've recently been experimenting with exporting the music XML file from Logic instead. More recent versions of Logic are pretty good at interpreting even messy midi and turning it into notation. If you're not comfortable working on the grid (+negative track delays) you might find this method quicker than quantising everything?
Hi Dan beautiful video, thanks for sharing it. I have a question: before importing the Violin section into Dorico and after you quantize it each part, do you delete as well the automation's info like Dynamic and Expressions? Or Dorico will eventually translate it automatically?
Dorico doesn’t tend to import midi CC. Thinking aloud, it would be GREAT if it could translate CC programming into dynamic shifts…! I need to speak to them about this
@@DanKeenMusicThank you so much. I think that would be awesome and this would save so much time at the end. Keep me posted if they decide to do it! All my best, Alberto
Two things stop me from using this: 1) Not every transition is the same length so requires more pushing and pulling to get the right fit. 2) more annoyingly, in Logic, if I record a region and then set the delay offset, if I record another passage that joins with this midi region, it will set the delay offset back to zero but bake the delay in by moving the midi regions. When I come to the end of the project and want to double check that everything has been offset properly, I see that midi region and think I forgot to offset it, and then inevitably double set it back. Does that make sense? Haha
C Major is not the same as atonal or "no key signature". If you have transposing instruments like Bb clarinet and you write C Major as your key signature on the conductor score, it would appear D Major on the individual part of the clarinet. And atonal music, or tonal music with no key signature, is the same for everyone, including transposing instruments. In Sibelius you have an option of having no key signature, I don't know how it's done in Dorico but I'm sure that must have this option.
I'm just writing this note because somewhere on the video you said something like: "this section is atonal so I will put the key of C Major". I this specific situation is okay because you're only working with strings but if you have woodwinds and brass...
Dan, You know Logic can receive a clock and I think Dorico can send a clock. Have you tried that? It seems that Logic works with Dorico 5 as well as Cubase.
Since the start of Dorico I have been hoping that Cubase and Dorico will have a very tight integration. With the launch of Dorico 5 I asked Daniel again about the integration and he said they are still working on it but not to be expected soon.
Hi Dan, enjoyed your video. I'm using the free version of Dorico as I'm new to it, and want to learn it first. I already have a big issue: in E major I see correct notes for the fist few bars, then I still see notes named like Eflat, Aflat and Cflat! Why?
Hi Mr. Keen. I'm late to the game, to be sure, but I do have a question. How would you go about condensing multiple tracks (different articulations of a single instrument) so that there's only a single staff in the score? I would think this is a common issue for orchestral composers who use DAWs for mock-ups.
Im not a film composer but i did once a transcription for a guitar track to record with TuxGuitar. Its a bit basic in terms of settings, tools but it does the job. Im waiting an sm57 as my first microphone so this video is very helpful cause im going to transcribe and record so many things!! Awesome video Dan as always
Hardest part i feel is converting dynamics for very common things. even more when all composers think different ways different dynamics. oi very likely use fff-ppp range onl becouse i can divide midi volumes easily with 8. and i feel some cases 6 like ff-pp is too steppy like cases what i thinked only (but my brains work well) using same melody two times biut other time is player ff and first time f. and this is example how. btw i use studio one and dorico. earlier Logic but auit form Apple side for personal reasons and i happy not more problems i think even Apple side haved some very odd things. and now my brother can help me if needed.
Great video. I've been writing vocal parts in Logic using its score editor. There have been some frustrating moments where the Score Editor will add unnecessary rests, miscalculate note lengths, etc. It would be good to see a video about how far one can go with Logic Score Editor. I don't have any music theory training so I have to stay within Logic for that immediate audio feedback.
I completely agree! Hearing it gives them the ability to listen and immerse themselves in the music to see if it will work in whatever project or setting they’re in
I don't have a huge amount of experience with MuseScore but I believe it's a little more limited than Dorico or Sibelius. Definitely possible to generate nice scores though
Hi Dan! Great video as always. Just wanted to point out that you can change the hairpins to not cross over the barline as a global setting in layout or engraving options (not at computer now so I don’t remember the exact place). And the dynamics are not grouped by default because it can create more problems than it solves. At least for my workflow it makes sense not for them to be grouped.
Nice video. A quick comment to say you can change the behavior of the hairpins with barlines in Engraving options>Dynamics>Gradual dynamics>Advanced options ;-) Save as default and it won't ever bother you again.
Excellent info. I use StaffPad and it was interesting to see another piece of notation software being used. Incidentally, the piece of music is also excellent. Harkens to good old Hollywood. Great stuff, Dan.
Dorico merged with Cubase is the dream. Have you messed with using play mode and using spitfire etc samples directly inside dorico? I just set up a 5 line sketching template in dorico to write straight inside dorico with notation and still use vst sounds. Dreading setting up a whole template for the vsts, but if it’s pure orchestral writing, seems like a quicker way to go
This is why I never bothered with DAW’s. I never saw the point of writing music via a DAW only to have to deal with the hassle of putting it into score. I might not have jazzy sound samples but when it comes to real life recordings: 9/10 it’ll be an orchestra playing while reading from a score. So i prefer to write the old fashioned way - straight to score!
That’s great if you have an orchestra prepared / paid to play your music! But 9/10 times you need to prove to your collaborators that your piece is worth recording. Depending on the context, of course. DAWs are also useful writing tools for many, using keyboards to play each part in quickly, without prior knowledge of music theory
@@DanKeenMusic i agree with that. I think having studied composition, a lot of my professors would have considered DAW’s lazy. I think they’re great but for someone like me who isn’t very skilled with tech/computers, i’m glad i learned how to notate scores properly from the start rather than playing music only to have to re-write it. That’s what makes me jealous about DAW’s: you can get some seriously realistic sounds these days!
Dan, love you content and I am pleased that you use Dorico: is very helpful to see how you use this wonderful and powerful software. Great music by the way! :-)
Would love a video doing exactly the opposite for those who write music directly in Sibelius and then move to MIDI.
i like how respectful he is
4:28+ My two-penn'orth on scoring without key signatures: in 55 years of playing, I have *never* seen key-signatureless orchestral parts - including session parts - *except* for French Horns, which vary.
One of the first thing an orchestral player learns is to read the key signature and remember it. That is *never* an issue. Horn players cope quite happily with whatever they get given.
However, there are things that the score-preparer or orchestrator needs to know that will make the player's life infinitely easier:
*Always* make key signature changes clear and obvious: a good way is to use double barlines at that point, as a double bar line attracts the player's attention..
If your key signature change falls at the beginning of a line, *always* completely cancel the existing key signature at the end of the previous line. Some experts say that you should always cancel the previous key signature wherever the change occurs. Other experts say you don't need to cancel most changes, but you do need to cancel others - which is confusing tor the orchestrator. My suggestion - which is the one that I come across 99% of the time - is simple and consistent.
If you have an out-of-key accidental in a bar & the next occurrence of the note is in the next bar but with no accidental, *always* indicate what the note that you want actually is in that next bar. In my experience, amateur players will never notice that the next note is not the same as the previous note. For example, the key signature is C major. In one bar you have F#, but in the next bar you want an F natural: *always* mark that 2nd note with a natural, otherwise a lot of players will play another F#...
If you are using out-of-key accidentals, *please* make them relevant to the actual key signature. Some scoring programs default to sharps, when flats are needed....
These are the principles I use in my own scores, and I have never had a complaint next. About the notes - yes. About how they are displayed - no.
Thanks, Dan. I’m currently in the process of doing exactly this - Logic to Dorico 4 - so I appreciate the tips. Would definitely love to see an orchestrator’s workflow. Would also love to see some more Dorico 4 engraving tips if you’ve got some more gems in that department. Cheers and thanks so much for sharing all that you do!
You are 100% correct! Thank you for your expertise and time!
I really enjoyed this presentation and found it quite helpful. I have recently converted to Dorico from Finale and my workflow has rapidly increased. Watching this full process helped me out a bit, but I need to read more into the MIDI import settings in Dorico in order to take full advantage of the tools it offers. I would love to see additional videos like this, Dan. Thanks so much! (P.S. My new MacBook M1Max with 64GB RAM just arrived today. I’m transferring files and hope to get to work with it tomorrow morning.)
"higgledy-piggledy"...respect.
Thanks for this little walk through your process, Dan! Beautifully done and wonderfully informative-and I would love to see how an orchestrator might bring that to the next level!
I reckon our good mate Tristan will be more than happy to show us how he works his magic 🙂
Definitely would love that orchestrator vid!
Whatever works for you is the right way to do it. I tried your approach since beginning my composition, but got stuck a lot and din‘t know how to proceed. No I started with a piano sketch of the whole piece and working my way up to full score within MuseScore. It worked tremendously better right off the bat. I think this is my way to go.
Hey Dan, I hope you’re doing well. What a great video, Thanks so much.
Yes, I’m so interested to know how a professional orchestrator would work on this 👌
Really great video-I also use Logic and Dorico, and found your short-cuts very insightful! I'd be interested to see how you take this midi file and "improve it" when working with a real orchestrator =)
Great video! Would love to see the orchestrator adding his touches to your already great process!
Great video, Dan. Would love to see an orchestrator’s side of things!
Watching this 8 months later. I feel like a lot of people are kind of sleeping on Studio One. They have a pretty seamless integration with notation inside their DAW. You can write notation and setup key switches to work all within the DAW if you choose to. Or you can completely ignore the notation and just write midi and it will still fill in the notation
when Cubase 12 Pro and beyond seamlessly merges Dorico with the score editor we could all have a celebration in actually editing live recordings and making changes. Build it Steinberg and that next version will come.
The DAW to score direction seems to be most common, but alas I work Score-to-DAW.
I play by ear with only a book one piano training. I want to write for orchestra What is the best DAW or notation software that easily scores whatever I play and that score can be ready for an orchestra?.
Higgledy piggledy! How is it that I'm hearing this for the first time?
Re orchestrator, yes I would be interested.
Really good points here Dan! Learned quite a bit. I'm an experienced Dorico user now and I still feel I learned a lot, so thank you!!
can you do this but for DRUMS? thanks!
Thanks for sharing your process! I've recently been experimenting with exporting the music XML file from Logic instead. More recent versions of Logic are pretty good at interpreting even messy midi and turning it into notation. If you're not comfortable working on the grid (+negative track delays) you might find this method quicker than quantising everything?
Hi Dan beautiful video, thanks for sharing it. I have a question: before importing the Violin section into Dorico and after you quantize it each part, do you delete as well the automation's info like Dynamic and Expressions? Or Dorico will eventually translate it automatically?
Dorico doesn’t tend to import midi CC. Thinking aloud, it would be GREAT if it could translate CC programming into dynamic shifts…! I need to speak to them about this
@@DanKeenMusicThank you so much. I think that would be awesome and this would save so much time at the end. Keep me posted if they decide to do it! All my best, Alberto
The question is: what is the Logic Pro Score editor for then?
Wouldn't me more helpful to use the Delay option in the inspector at for example (180ms) for CSS, instead of playing all the notes ahead of the click?
Two things stop me from using this: 1) Not every transition is the same length so requires more pushing and pulling to get the right fit. 2) more annoyingly, in Logic, if I record a region and then set the delay offset, if I record another passage that joins with this midi region, it will set the delay offset back to zero but bake the delay in by moving the midi regions. When I come to the end of the project and want to double check that everything has been offset properly, I see that midi region and think I forgot to offset it, and then inevitably double set it back. Does that make sense? Haha
@@DanKeenMusic Thank you for answering!, btw, I love your content, you have very interesting stuff here.
we all hope they merge Dorico with Cubase.
C Major is not the same as atonal or "no key signature". If you have transposing instruments like Bb clarinet and you write C Major as your key signature on the conductor score, it would appear D Major on the individual part of the clarinet. And atonal music, or tonal music with no key signature, is the same for everyone, including transposing instruments. In Sibelius you have an option of having no key signature, I don't know how it's done in Dorico but I'm sure that must have this option.
I'm just writing this note because somewhere on the video you said something like: "this section is atonal so I will put the key of C Major". I this specific situation is okay because you're only working with strings but if you have woodwinds and brass...
Good point Afonso. And yes you can assign atonal key signature in Dorico: just write atonal in the popover.
20:54 - All in favor, say aye!
Kinda lost me during the divisi part --
Dorico gannnnnnnbnbbg
Dan, You know Logic can receive a clock and I think Dorico can send a clock. Have you tried that? It seems that Logic works with Dorico 5 as well as Cubase.
Great presentation. Please go ahead with your project showing how orchestrators enhance the piece. Looking forward to it.
Since the start of Dorico I have been hoping that Cubase and Dorico will have a very tight integration. With the launch of Dorico 5 I asked Daniel again about the integration and he said they are still working on it but not to be expected soon.
Hi Dan, enjoyed your video. I'm using the free version of Dorico as I'm new to it, and want to learn it first. I already have a big issue: in E major I see correct notes for the fist few bars, then I still see notes named like Eflat, Aflat and Cflat! Why?
I just had this question in my mind today about how to take music direct from Logic to Dorico and this video appeared at the top of the search. Nice!
What the problem with Logic's Score Editor? Im a new to this and would like to know. Thanks.
Hi Mr. Keen. I'm late to the game, to be sure, but I do have a question. How would you go about condensing multiple tracks (different articulations of a single instrument) so that there's only a single staff in the score? I would think this is a common issue for orchestral composers who use DAWs for mock-ups.
Im not a film composer but i did once a transcription for a guitar track to record with TuxGuitar. Its a bit basic in terms of settings, tools but it does the job.
Im waiting an sm57 as my first microphone so this video is very helpful cause im going to transcribe and record so many things!! Awesome video Dan as always
extremely excited to see an orchestrator's workflow
No Playback Loop!! This is all my frustration about Dorico! and that's unacceptable!!
Well, Dorico will be my new scoring software. Great info and workflow
Oh no Dan "Ultimate". I have unsubscribed to two channels recently using that word. I don't want to unsubscribe here too.
Then don’t unsubscribe 😅
Would love to hear about an orchestrator's process. Thanks for the tutorial, super helpful as always.
Hardest part i feel is converting dynamics for very common things. even more when all composers think different ways different dynamics. oi very likely use fff-ppp range onl becouse i can divide midi volumes easily with 8. and i feel some cases 6 like ff-pp is too steppy like cases what i thinked only (but my brains work well) using same melody two times biut other time is player ff and first time f. and this is example how. btw i use studio one and dorico. earlier Logic but auit form Apple side for personal reasons and i happy not more problems i think even Apple side haved some very odd things. and now my brother can help me if needed.
Great video. I've been writing vocal parts in Logic using its score editor. There have been some frustrating moments where the Score Editor will add unnecessary rests, miscalculate note lengths, etc. It would be good to see a video about how far one can go with Logic Score Editor. I don't have any music theory training so I have to stay within Logic for that immediate audio feedback.
I completely agree! Hearing it gives them the ability to listen and immerse themselves in the music to see if it will work in whatever project or setting they’re in
PLEASE SHOW US HOW TO TAKE IT TO THE NEXT LEVEL WITH AN ORCHESTRATOR !!!
Does MuseScore have the capabilities to do everything done here with Dorico?
I don't have a huge amount of experience with MuseScore but I believe it's a little more limited than Dorico or Sibelius. Definitely possible to generate nice scores though
@@DanKeenMusic Thanks!
Musescore rules and definitely has the capabilities 👍. Like any program these days you just got to sit down and learn it
@@LA7Rose For sure! I've been using it for a couple months now and it's great.
Hi Dan! Great video as always. Just wanted to point out that you can change the hairpins to not cross over the barline as a global setting in layout or engraving options (not at computer now so I don’t remember the exact place).
And the dynamics are not grouped by default because it can create more problems than it solves. At least for my workflow it makes sense not for them to be grouped.
Finally! An actual video about this on TH-cam! I have been taking hours to notate..
Nice video. A quick comment to say you can change the behavior of the hairpins with barlines in Engraving options>Dynamics>Gradual dynamics>Advanced options ;-) Save as default and it won't ever bother you again.
Excellent info. I use StaffPad and it was interesting to see another piece of notation software being used. Incidentally, the piece of music is also excellent. Harkens to good old Hollywood. Great stuff, Dan.
Dorico merged with Cubase is the dream. Have you messed with using play mode and using spitfire etc samples directly inside dorico? I just set up a 5 line sketching template in dorico to write straight inside dorico with notation and still use vst sounds. Dreading setting up a whole template for the vsts, but if it’s pure orchestral writing, seems like a quicker way to go
Hi Dan! Thanks for that video! Please, proceed with the orchesrator. It'll be awesome!
Thanks for this. Yes, would like a followup video with an orchestrator.
Awesomer!!! Thank you... And by all means, please show us the next level.
Watching this on mobile is such a pain. Zooming in on your pointer really helps.
Getting an orchestrators take on this would be amazing Dan
Great to see you back Dan! Excited to watch this.
Nice video Dan!
Would love to see the orchestrator's work as well :)
Genius!
Well done and certainly on point!
This is why I never bothered with DAW’s. I never saw the point of writing music via a DAW only to have to deal with the hassle of putting it into score. I might not have jazzy sound samples but when it comes to real life recordings: 9/10 it’ll be an orchestra playing while reading from a score. So i prefer to write the old fashioned way - straight to score!
That’s great if you have an orchestra prepared / paid to play your music! But 9/10 times you need to prove to your collaborators that your piece is worth recording. Depending on the context, of course. DAWs are also useful writing tools for many, using keyboards to play each part in quickly, without prior knowledge of music theory
@@DanKeenMusic i agree with that. I think having studied composition, a lot of my professors would have considered DAW’s lazy. I think they’re great but for someone like me who isn’t very skilled with tech/computers, i’m glad i learned how to notate scores properly from the start rather than playing music only to have to re-write it.
That’s what makes me jealous about DAW’s: you can get some seriously realistic sounds these days!
Logic to musescore
Dan, love you content and I am pleased that you use Dorico: is very helpful to see how you use this wonderful and powerful software. Great music by the way! :-)