No other recording gives my sub-woofers as much of a workout as this one does. My walls shake... and that's on the first movement, part 2 soft section! Bravo to recording engineer Lewis Layton, RCA's "version" on Bob Fine at Mercury.
The "Poco Adagio" of Munch's Saint Saens Organ Symphony is so beautiful. I remember the liner notes said they moved the orchestra off the stage to give the Aeolian Skinner organ better projection. A great performance and a classic!
It wasn't just for this case. The RCA production team found that, although Symphony Hall has glorious acoustics with an audience, when empty, it was just too reverberant. They found the best way to record the BSO there was to take out the seats and place the orchestra on the main floor of the hall instead of onstage.
This is absolutely worthy of being the reference recording, it is just fabulous. Another recording made with organ 'in situ' that I regard as another great one as that with Louis Fremaux conducting the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, this was included in the EMI/Warner Icon boxed set along with some other treasures.
Whenever I am trying to convince friends that recorded sound has not necessarily improved over the decades this is one of the first examples I use to make my point. It never fails to impress. Even my vinyl version still sounds marvellous.
Very true. There's a false perception among many younger listeners that equates recordings from the 1950's with scratchy shellac 78s. Quality examples like this one make that fallacy quite evident.
@@leestamm3187 All recording are not created equal in term of sound saturation, tape hiss and ambient noise (coughing, page turning, pencil falling, the conductor humming, etc...)
@@leestamm3187 Most modern recording have on average a better recording quality overall. With digital you have more freedom to balance and obtain the sound you want (you can also ruin a recording by fucking with it that way) In the end it has to do with the talent of the sound engineers (who are artists and technicians at the same time). I think it's also a choice because if you place mic too close you'll get better sound but you will also get all the little noises the musicians make in their seat and with good headphone you'll actually hear it and it can be very distracting once you notice.
It surely deserves to be called "The Reference," but for me it was love at first listen, and I've been faithful to this recording ever since I first purchased it. I'm no critic, but I believe it's the greatest recorded version of all time, and I doubt it will be supplanted in the next one hundred years.
Agree 100%. Got it on LP as a gift to my parents. Later picked it up on CD, and was appalled by the first couple of transfers of it, as they must have been using a cassette dub as the source. Fortunately, when they started doing their "Living Stereo" reissues, they finally got it right, especially with the SACDs.
The Organ Symphony has that iconic timpani solo at the very end which I suspect was played by the late great Vic Firth who was Principal Timpanist for the Boston Symphony Orchestra for many years. Also RIP OZAWA
The epitome of what makes you invaluable. Keen discographical context with accessible but always supremely well-informed musical insights that any enthusiast can access. Discovering your channel has been a godsend. Thank goodness I don’t buy physical discs any more. The enthusiasm, or maybe I should say, voraciousness that your talks bring out in me would surely have landed me in the poorhouse were I not amassing a library on Spotify instead of Tower Records, rest in peace. Happy Passover.
First exposure to the piece was in San Francisco and sat behind the orchestra. Sure, I could "feel" the reverberations from the pipes, but more thrillingly I felt a notable breeze every time a chord was being blasted
Currently listening. This is stunning. I would normally not even glance at something this old, because I like my music without Rice Krispies, but...wow.
Records from that era are lost, but i THINK that this was my first inkling of the idea of "reference" recordings, because i remember my dad saying something about "this is the one that everyone talks about" when referring to recordings of the symphony. I have a couple of really fine digital recordings, but this sentimental favorite still stands up against them.
Dave - I have listened to what feels like a thousand versions of the 3rd (my own favorite for the longest time is conducted he who must not be named). I am just now finishing up Munch's version and holy cow - truly amazing both as a reference recording and perhaps one of *the* best out there. Amazing. Thanks so much!
I'll never forget my first recording of the "Organ" Symphony. I had learned the piece via the great Biggs/Ormandy version a few years earlier. Then, as a college student on a limited budget I was overjoyed to find a very inexpensive recording at one of my university bookstore's periodic record sales. Hans Swarowsky conducting (if I recall correctly) some Czech orchestra on the Parliament label. On first hearing I thought it odd that the organ seemed to have no presence in the slow movement. But when I came to the passage where the organ enters triumphantly to inaugurate the finale I was astonished to hear--nothing but the orchestral accompaniment. Either the engineers forgot to patch in the organ part, or the whole production was so low budget that they couldn't afford to hire an organist for the occasion!
A definite YES to this choice. No argument. As a habitué of Boston Symphony Hall of many years I feel this recording gives a very good idea of the acoustics of the hall. Symphony Hall has a warmth and fullness with no echo. The sound in the hall travels past you and disappears magically and beautifully. Listen to the last moments of this recording. The engineers included that final sound. I have both the CD and SACD and for those who have the playback equipment do not hesitate. The CD is very good but the SACD is great. Remastered from then recently re-discovered 3 track masters that deliver a great sonic experience, the sort I would have hearing this in person if I were sitting in one of my favorite spots: the middle of the second balcony!
I agree that this is the reference, and in part because of the outstanding sound quality, due to the acoustics of Boston Symphony Hall, and by engineering and performance that resulted in near ideal balance between organ and orchestra. And it is a magnificent performance--Munch had a great feel for the piece, and the BSO played just great. Regardless, I also have affection for the Paray/Detroit Symphony recording on Mercury, from 1957. That recording was made in Ford Auditorium, which had rather dry acoustics. However, a new Aeolian-Skinner concert organ had just been installed, it was a fine instrument, and Marcel Dupre, one of the top organists of the time, was on hand to play it. Paul Paray was the other great French conductor working in America at the time, and his interpretation strikes me as possibly the best conducted recording of the piece, in terms of things like tempo relationships, balances and felicitous details. Engineer C. Robert Fine achieved an overall balance that allows you to hear everything clearly. But the Ford Auditorium acoustics do nothing for the orchestra and organ, and the recording reflects that accurately as well. That acoustical shortcoming is why the Paray recording cannot be the reference.
For me, those are the two, and Munch is the better! Paray is lean, crisp, clean and enjoyable (and those qualities are reinforced by the sound). Munch’s is huge, sweeping, grand and thrilling!
Another fine recording...Abravanel with Utah on Westminster. Recorded in the tabernacle. Organ and orchestra in real space. Yes, the finale is a rather tame, but still....it's really nice to have everyone in the same room at the same time. Sonics are pretty good.
I read an interesting about old recordings. Apparently for LP records the loud bass had to be mixed as a mono and attenuated to prevent the stylus to tracking wildly and even jumping out of the groove. The cd remixes have the bass in stereo and unattentuated. So no wondered these vintage recording sound even more amazing.
That Columbia Ormandy was the first one I heard, and I still have the LP. I've listened to the Paray before. I don't recall the Munch. I'll recheck it. Thanks.
Munch's recording is an absolute testament not only to his artistry but also RCA'S engineers - definitely the reference. For myself, I'm rather partial to Loius Fremaux's version with the CBSO, which is, in my opinion, superbly played and paced with a demonstration quality recording to match (organ recorded in situ by the way). Would never be a reference though, as Fremaux was not well known enough, and the CBSO was considered far too provincial at that stage!
It's a wonderful record. Also love Martinon & Pretre. Latter too slow in final movement but who wouldn't want to hear the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra in this repertoire?
Truly, an amazing recording. The sonics are fantastic, the poco adagio at home I can feel the vibrations in the hardwood floor. As great as other recordings are, they pale in comparison.
I thought your reference recording for Saint-Saëns' "Organ" Symphony was going to be Philadelphia/Ormandy with E. Power Biggs "tracked" in from another location (the first time the piece was recorded that way). I first heard that piece from the Musical Heritage Society release of Martinon's Erato recording, filled out with two Saint-Saëns tone poems, "Omphale's Spinning Wheel" (the source for the theme for the radio show "The Shadow") and "Danse Macabre." Unfortunately, to fit both tone poems on side two MHS put the side break between the third and fourth movements, which are supposed to be played without pause.
Permit me to make a correction. E. Power Biggs' contribution to the Ormandy/PO/Columbia recording was not "tracked in". An Acolian-Skinner organ was donated to the orchestra and the Academy of Music as the Cyrus H. K. Curtis Memorial Organ by Mrs. Efrem Zimbalist in 1960 and it was played by Biggs in the October 1962 recording. The stage was extended to make room for the console in the Academy and, given the location, the recording still sounds very good on a Japanese produced SACD remastered by Andreas Meyer. A photo exists documenting the making of this recording with Biggs and Ormandy. It is favorite of mine, although one needs to recognize the the Munch is 'the reference'.
One of your best reviews. Everything clicks. The current curators of the Newberry are getting pretty senior; I’m hoping there is a solid succession plan in place.
Puzzled that recent renovations to NYC Lincoln Center (NYPO) hall whatever it is now called did not include installation of an organ. Same with Houston's Jones Hall. Could it have been done?
Fine video! By the way: at the time Barenboim recorded the Saint-Saens with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Hall did not have a concert organ. In the last remodeling of the hall, when Orchestra Hall basically became Symphony Center, an organ was installed in the building.
AFAIK, back during the Reiner era, Orchestra Hall did have a pipe organ, it can be heard in the two Also Sprach recordings, Schwanda the Bagpiper, etc. But the organ was put out of commission during the 1966 remodeling and never rose again. As mentioned, a new organ was installed during the most recent remodeling.
I am curious about this Boston/Munch recording. Amazon show a "remastered" version in SACD format. The reviews of the poor sound quality are rather brutal. Does anyone here know whether this remaster is a good in sound quality as the original CD? I have no doubt the performance is just as great, for the new SACD release is the 1959 performance. But is the sound quality somehow worse . . . perhaps due to deterioration of the original master tapes? Please advise.
If you're asking if the SACD is any good the answer is YES! I have both the CD and SACD and it's worth the money! I just listened to it this evening and I'm very glad I have it.
hello mr hurwitz...I have a question...on the cover of the disc that you are presenting, it is written: ''a stereo spectacular''.... I got this recording (if it is indeed the same recording, recorded in 1956) on sacd rca where it is written "hi-fi spectacular": the disc is completed by the sea of debussy and escales of jacques ibert....at the end of the day I ask the question ,did munch record this symphony twice for rca....?
@@poturbg8698 Yes -- the current CD/SACD coupled the "A Stereo Spectacular" with "The Sea" (Debussy/Ibert) by the same forces. They changed the title with the CD came out, I guess because there was no need to tout stereo by that time, as most people had never heard of "hi-fi" applying to mono during the early LP era.
Hey Dave, me again with another request (if it ever becomes annoying just say so!). Would you ever consider doing a video where you react ‘live’ to a performance of e.g. Beethoven’s violin concerto? Or another work that’s maybe shorter. What I’m really interested in seeing is how you process music - in the moment- and maybe pause after each movement and give us your thoughts on the performance, what you like or dislike and stuff like that. Kind of like the Djabadary piano concerto one, but then the whole piece. Maybe even go into some detail of your favorite moments in that movement! I would think of it like a “listen along with Dave” kind of thing haha. Anyway thanks for the vid, I absolutely love Munch’s recording of this work so no surprise it being the reference recording.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for answering! I think I didn’t describe it very well (English is not my first language). There are some very popular videos on TH-cam that are simply someone reacting to a classical performance and talking over it, or pausing, and explain what’s happening and/or pointing out when the conductor does something amazing or stupid haha. Ivan Fisher for example has done this with Beethoven 7 and 9. With the ninth I remember him explaining that the Turkish march in the finale is often played more slowly because the double fuga after it is almost impossible otherwise; which the conductor chose to do. And of course for the 7th that famous remark of Wagner how it is “the apotheosis of the dance”. I’d like to see something similar, but with a bit more depth and a critical eye!
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 62 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "มงคลแก้ว vs อีที"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/q7QuSUtUN94/mqdefault.jpg)
No other recording gives my sub-woofers as much of a workout as this one does. My walls shake... and that's on the first movement, part 2 soft section! Bravo to recording engineer Lewis Layton, RCA's "version" on Bob Fine at Mercury.
The "Poco Adagio" of Munch's Saint Saens Organ Symphony is so beautiful. I remember the liner notes said they moved the orchestra off the stage to give the Aeolian Skinner organ better projection. A great performance and a classic!
It wasn't just for this case. The RCA production team found that, although Symphony Hall has glorious acoustics with an audience, when empty, it was just too reverberant. They found the best way to record the BSO there was to take out the seats and place the orchestra on the main floor of the hall instead of onstage.
This is absolutely worthy of being the reference recording, it is just fabulous. Another recording made with organ 'in situ' that I regard as another great one as that with Louis Fremaux conducting the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, this was included in the EMI/Warner Icon boxed set along with some other treasures.
Whenever I am trying to convince friends that recorded sound has not necessarily improved over the decades this is one of the first examples I use to make my point. It never fails to impress. Even my vinyl version still sounds marvellous.
Very true. There's a false perception among many younger listeners that equates recordings from the 1950's with scratchy shellac 78s. Quality examples like this one make that fallacy quite evident.
“Even” your vinyl version? 😂
@@leestamm3187 All recording are not created equal in term of sound saturation, tape hiss and ambient noise (coughing, page turning, pencil falling, the conductor humming, etc...)
@@leestamm3187 Most modern recording have on average a better recording quality overall. With digital you have more freedom to balance and obtain the sound you want (you can also ruin a recording by fucking with it that way) In the end it has to do with the talent of the sound engineers (who are artists and technicians at the same time).
I think it's also a choice because if you place mic too close you'll get better sound but you will also get all the little noises the musicians make in their seat and with good headphone you'll actually hear it and it can be very distracting once you notice.
It surely deserves to be called "The Reference," but for me it was love at first listen, and I've been faithful to this recording ever since I first purchased it. I'm no critic, but I believe it's the greatest recorded version of all time, and I doubt it will be supplanted in the next one hundred years.
Agree 100%. Got it on LP as a gift to my parents. Later picked it up on CD, and was appalled by the first couple of transfers of it, as they must have been using a cassette dub as the source. Fortunately, when they started doing their "Living Stereo" reissues, they finally got it right, especially with the SACDs.
The Organ Symphony has that iconic timpani solo at the very end which I suspect was played by the late great Vic Firth who was Principal Timpanist for the Boston Symphony Orchestra for many years. Also RIP OZAWA
The epitome of what makes you invaluable. Keen discographical context with accessible but always supremely well-informed musical insights that any enthusiast can access. Discovering your channel has been a godsend. Thank goodness I don’t buy physical discs any more. The enthusiasm, or maybe I should say, voraciousness that your talks bring out in me would surely have landed me in the poorhouse were I not amassing a library on Spotify instead of Tower Records, rest in peace. Happy Passover.
Thank you. And to you!
First exposure to the piece was in San Francisco and sat behind the orchestra. Sure, I could "feel" the reverberations from the pipes, but more thrillingly I felt a notable breeze every time a chord was being blasted
Currently listening. This is stunning. I would normally not even glance at something this old, because I like my music without Rice Krispies, but...wow.
I love this series and thank goodness for streaming. It means I can go an listen to every single reference recording you mention.
Records from that era are lost, but i THINK that this was my first inkling of the idea of "reference" recordings, because i remember my dad saying something about "this is the one that everyone talks about" when referring to recordings of the symphony. I have a couple of really fine digital recordings, but this sentimental favorite still stands up against them.
Dave - I have listened to what feels like a thousand versions of the 3rd (my own favorite for the longest time is conducted he who must not be named). I am just now finishing up Munch's version and holy cow - truly amazing both as a reference recording and perhaps one of *the* best out there. Amazing. Thanks so much!
I'll never forget my first recording of the "Organ" Symphony. I had learned the piece via the great Biggs/Ormandy version a few years earlier. Then, as a college student on a limited budget I was overjoyed to find a very inexpensive recording at one of my university bookstore's periodic record sales. Hans Swarowsky conducting (if I recall correctly) some Czech orchestra on the Parliament label. On first hearing I thought it odd that the organ seemed to have no presence in the slow movement. But when I came to the passage where the organ enters triumphantly to inaugurate the finale I was astonished to hear--nothing but the orchestral accompaniment. Either the engineers forgot to patch in the organ part, or the whole production was so low budget that they couldn't afford to hire an organist for the occasion!
Amazing! Saint-Saens' Non-Organ Symphony.
A definite YES to this choice. No argument.
As a habitué of Boston Symphony Hall of many years I feel this recording gives a very good idea of the acoustics of the hall. Symphony Hall has a warmth and fullness with no echo. The sound in the hall travels past you and disappears magically and beautifully. Listen to the last moments of this recording. The engineers included that final sound.
I have both the CD and SACD and for those who have the playback equipment do not hesitate. The CD is very good but the SACD is great. Remastered from then recently re-discovered 3 track masters that deliver a great sonic experience, the sort I would have hearing this in person if I were sitting in one of my favorite spots: the middle of the second balcony!
I agree that this is the reference, and in part because of the outstanding sound quality, due to the acoustics of Boston Symphony Hall, and by engineering and performance that resulted in near ideal balance between organ and orchestra. And it is a magnificent performance--Munch had a great feel for the piece, and the BSO played just great.
Regardless, I also have affection for the Paray/Detroit Symphony recording on Mercury, from 1957. That recording was made in Ford Auditorium, which had rather dry acoustics. However, a new Aeolian-Skinner concert organ had just been installed, it was a fine instrument, and Marcel Dupre, one of the top organists of the time, was on hand to play it. Paul Paray was the other great French conductor working in America at the time, and his interpretation strikes me as possibly the best conducted recording of the piece, in terms of things like tempo relationships, balances and felicitous details. Engineer C. Robert Fine achieved an overall balance that allows you to hear everything clearly. But the Ford Auditorium acoustics do nothing for the orchestra and organ, and the recording reflects that accurately as well. That acoustical shortcoming is why the Paray recording cannot be the reference.
For me, those are the two, and Munch is the better! Paray is lean, crisp, clean and enjoyable (and those qualities are reinforced by the sound). Munch’s is huge, sweeping, grand and thrilling!
Another fine recording...Abravanel with Utah on Westminster. Recorded in the tabernacle. Organ and orchestra in real space. Yes, the finale is a rather tame, but still....it's really nice to have everyone in the same room at the same time. Sonics are pretty good.
I read an interesting about old recordings. Apparently for LP records the loud bass had to be mixed as a mono and attenuated to prevent the stylus to tracking wildly and even jumping out of the groove. The cd remixes have the bass in stereo and unattentuated. So no wondered these vintage recording sound even more amazing.
There can only be one!
That Columbia Ormandy was the first one I heard, and I still have the LP. I've listened to the Paray before. I don't recall the Munch. I'll recheck it. Thanks.
Munch's recording is an absolute testament not only to his artistry but also RCA'S engineers - definitely the reference. For myself, I'm rather partial to Loius Fremaux's version with the CBSO, which is, in my opinion, superbly played and paced with a demonstration quality recording to match (organ recorded in situ by the way). Would never be a reference though, as Fremaux was not well known enough, and the CBSO was considered far too provincial at that stage!
It's a wonderful record. Also love Martinon & Pretre. Latter too slow in final movement but who wouldn't want to hear the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra in this repertoire?
Truly, an amazing recording. The sonics are fantastic, the poco adagio at home I can feel the vibrations in the hardwood floor. As great as other recordings are, they pale in comparison.
I thought your reference recording for Saint-Saëns' "Organ" Symphony was going to be Philadelphia/Ormandy with E. Power Biggs "tracked" in from another location (the first time the piece was recorded that way). I first heard that piece from the Musical Heritage Society release of Martinon's Erato recording, filled out with two Saint-Saëns tone poems, "Omphale's Spinning Wheel" (the source for the theme for the radio show "The Shadow") and "Danse Macabre." Unfortunately, to fit both tone poems on side two MHS put the side break between the third and fourth movements, which are supposed to be played without pause.
Permit me to make a correction. E. Power Biggs' contribution to the Ormandy/PO/Columbia recording was not "tracked in". An Acolian-Skinner organ was donated to the orchestra and the Academy of Music as the Cyrus H. K. Curtis Memorial Organ by Mrs. Efrem Zimbalist in 1960 and it was played by Biggs in the October 1962 recording. The stage was extended to make room for the console in the Academy and, given the location, the recording still sounds very good on a Japanese produced SACD remastered by Andreas Meyer. A photo exists documenting the making of this recording with Biggs and Ormandy. It is favorite of mine, although one needs to recognize the the Munch is 'the reference'.
One of your best reviews. Everything clicks.
The current curators of the Newberry are getting pretty senior; I’m hoping there is a solid succession plan in place.
Puzzled that recent renovations to NYC Lincoln Center (NYPO) hall whatever it is now called did not include installation of an organ. Same with Houston's Jones Hall. Could it have been done?
Fine video! By the way: at the time Barenboim recorded the Saint-Saens with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra Hall did not have a concert organ. In the last remodeling of the hall, when Orchestra Hall basically became Symphony Center, an organ was installed in the building.
AFAIK, back during the Reiner era, Orchestra Hall did have a pipe organ, it can be heard in the two Also Sprach recordings, Schwanda the Bagpiper, etc. But the organ was put out of commission during the 1966 remodeling and never rose again. As mentioned, a new organ was installed during the most recent remodeling.
No disputing the reference here. (Edo de Vaart and the San Fran Symphony Orchestra might be added to the list of notable other recordings.)
Yes, definitely.
Well, what about the one by Stern with the Kansas City Symphony on *Reference Recordings* (sic)?
Wasn’t the Ormandy/Biggs Columbia recording done in Symphony Hall in Boston?
The earlier mono recording was done in Symphony Hall. The 1962 stereo Ormandy/Biggs was done in the Academy of Music.
I am curious about this Boston/Munch recording. Amazon show a "remastered" version in SACD format. The reviews of the poor sound quality are rather brutal. Does anyone here know whether this remaster is a good in sound quality as the original CD? I have no doubt the performance is just as great, for the new SACD release is the 1959 performance. But is the sound quality somehow worse . . . perhaps due to deterioration of the original master tapes? Please advise.
If you're asking if the SACD is any good the answer is YES!
I have both the CD and SACD and it's worth the money! I just listened to it this evening and I'm very glad I have it.
Where do we get the papersleeve edition you were holding up? Should have made mention of it.
hello mr hurwitz...I have a question...on the cover of the disc that you are presenting, it is written: ''a stereo spectacular''.... I got this recording (if it is indeed the same recording, recorded in 1956) on sacd rca where it is written "hi-fi spectacular": the disc is completed by the sea of debussy and escales of jacques ibert....at the end of the day I ask the question ,did munch record this symphony twice for rca....?
It was recorded by these musicians once (1959), but recoupled with other music on the SACD.
Probably they changed to "hi-fi" because the sacd version is available in 3-channel, and thus not what people call "stereo".
@@poturbg8698 Yes -- the current CD/SACD coupled the "A Stereo Spectacular" with "The Sea" (Debussy/Ibert) by the same forces. They changed the title with the CD came out, I guess because there was no need to tout stereo by that time, as most people had never heard of "hi-fi" applying to mono during the early LP era.
thank you to all🙂
Hey Dave, me again with another request (if it ever becomes annoying just say so!). Would you ever consider doing a video where you react ‘live’ to a performance of e.g. Beethoven’s violin concerto? Or another work that’s maybe shorter. What I’m really interested in seeing is how you process music - in the moment- and maybe pause after each movement and give us your thoughts on the performance, what you like or dislike and stuff like that. Kind of like the Djabadary piano concerto one, but then the whole piece. Maybe even go into some detail of your favorite moments in that movement! I would think of it like a “listen along with Dave” kind of thing haha. Anyway thanks for the vid, I absolutely love Munch’s recording of this work so no surprise it being the reference recording.
That makes no sense to me. Sorry! The "process" happens in my head and you can't see that!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for answering! I think I didn’t describe it very well (English is not my first language). There are some very popular videos on TH-cam that are simply someone reacting to a classical performance and talking over it, or pausing, and explain what’s happening and/or pointing out when the conductor does something amazing or stupid haha. Ivan Fisher for example has done this with Beethoven 7 and 9. With the ninth I remember him explaining that the Turkish march in the finale is often played more slowly because the double fuga after it is almost impossible otherwise; which the conductor chose to do. And of course for the 7th that famous remark of Wagner how it is “the apotheosis of the dance”. I’d like to see something similar, but with a bit more depth and a critical eye!