I’ve been using torsion axles for years, had them for over 10 years on my boat trailer and 6 years 20000 miles on my Rockwood, I like the 4 wheel independent feel, I will always pick torsion over leafs.
Good video and great description. The issue like you said with the RV is the frame is not strong enough for it and that’s where the cost difference for the system comes in. I’ve towed a 32’ cargo trailer with torsion axles and I can tell you it’s a heck of a lot more planted then my 26’ box RV with a CRE3000. What really made the difference on ours was the sumo springs. It is more planted and less wishy washy, but nothing like the cargo trailer with the heavier frame and torsion axles.
On aluminum trailers the torsion axles will be bolted in place and therefore easier to replace. This system is easier to build as a spread axle setup. Always check your equipment before a trip to avoid most problems.
I installed this CRE 3000 to my 29 ft. Grey Wolf toy hauler last year and love it, rides better and no more noisy axels with the wet bolts, I would recommend it to anyone, installed it myself in about 6 hours with the right tools
Thanks for making the video. All this time I thought trailer manufacturers used leaf springs because they were considerably cheaper because customers do not ask "what kind of suspension the trailer has". I am still not convinced the manufacturers are cutting corners where they think no one is looking.
Another very informative video. We have the Intech Expedition with the Dexter Torsion Axles. Our previous trailer was a Keystone Bullet with the spring system. I have to say I like the torsion ride much better, but we never upgraded our springs with the MORryde.
Really value your opinion and research you do. I totally agree the trailer frame has to be designed a bit more robust for torsion axles. Only had my rockwood with torsion axles for 3 years. Zero axle problems. However I’ve had a Eby gooseneck cattle trailer with torsion axles for almost 20 years. No suspension problems. More than 100,000 miles. Hitch height does have to be adjusted to provide level ride to equalize weight. I’m sold. Thanks again for great information and a great channel.
When I updated from a fifth wheel with spring suspension to one with torsion axles, I could immediately tell that the ride/towing experience was much nicer with the torsion axles. The rigs weighed the same and I used the same tow vehicle, so it is clear that the axles made the difference. I suspect that the it's possible to buy a better spring suspension than the one I had, but I would have a hard time believing that you could get one that would ride as nice as a torsion axle setup.
These new comparison videos are great man. I’ve always had a good understanding for how an equalizer suspension setup works, but never known a lot about how the torsion setup works. All things considered, I believe the traditional equalizer suspension is better in most situations. The serviceability, ease of checking condition and ease of replacement are all reasons I would go with it. If you plan on towing that trailer much, and over rough terrain, I believe the torsion axle would wear a lot. But you wouldn’t be able to assess them to find out before failure.
We have a 5th wheel equipment trailer that was equipped with torsion axles. It has always bothered me how easy the wheels come off the ground. Also, if we switch trucks and the 5th wheel height isn't set perfect, 2 tires are clearly taking way more load. I would not opt for torsion axles in an application like this again. Great video.
I know a few people who have had bent torsion axles and Dexter made good by shipping replacement axles. I think the Dexter torsion axles carry a 10-12 year warranty. Good video. Then there are the new suspension systems from Curt that uses coil springs plus dual shocks like found on the Ember and a few others. I haven’t towed with that yet but am looking forward to doing so. It’s interesting to see them assemble a torsion axle - they literally freeze the rubber portion and push it all together. Then it thaws and goes to work.
I had a torsion susp go out on a motorcycle trailer. It was HARD to diagnose and made the tires wear out in like a quarter of the time. Trailer was all over the place. 550 lb loaded trailer. E trailer fixed me up. But for reasons you mention here. Upgraded spring leaf for me. Or air bags.
Torsion is a form independent suspension. Each wheel can move up and down without affecting any other. That's one reason for their superior ride quality to leaf spring.
Very Nice video and all base on facts and no gessing. I would like to add some details on more deeper facts, not specified on your video, that change your mind about torsion suspensions. 1) the way tendem axles springs suspension is design and installed on trailer will always create high stress on the rear hanger bracket, by the fact that the sharkle on the rear axle are on wrong side. They are in front of the leaf springs. So, wen you hit a good streight bump, the natural dynamic forces will tend to move axle backward, but the spring want to go foreward, creating a shockload on the rear spring hanger bracket. That the reason why all car, truck and single axle trailer, sharkle are always in the back of spring. 2) with the equalizer in between the 2 axles, wen the trailer get lateral load ( side wind or fast turn by exemple), the rear and front axle of the loader side (the one that will drop) will automaticly get closer, and on the other side (axles are releasing load), axles will move away. This will make axles to be non parallel. Worse, axles will sreering the trailer on the loader side, creating side load on the pulling vehicule and forcingtires of the trailer to drag sideway on the road on the wrong side of the truck and trailer direction !!! Those 2 bad effects are not present on torsion independent suspensions. They stay parallel all the time and the main Steel beam are always foreward of the wheel spindles. No rear shock load. By the way, torsion suspensions can be bolted to the frame, to be able to replace them if needed.
Both the horse trailers have torsion axles. in addition to providing a low deck height for entry, they provide a very good ride free of abrupt jarring for the animals. Your explanation of driving over a speed bump was exactly what was happening to our 2015 38' toy hauler. The Equiflex was mounted incorrectly not allowing any movement, locked into position. this caused the springs to fail and bend backwards. I wrestled with the coach manufacturer and LCI for months and eventually lost the battle, cost me a lot of money to fix it properly. They told me I was carrying too much food in the kitchen. I have pictures on my channel
On high end marine aluminum trailers, they are bolted to the frame. I have 5 Myco trailers and all have torsion axles that are bolted. I suppose the people who go with steel might have them welded, but most high end boat trailers are aluminum
I have Dexter torsion axles on my 37'/12K Flagstaff 5th wheel and my 20'/10k cargo trailer. The ride quality is by far superior to leaf spring and maintenance is non-existent which leads to a cost savings due to reduced damage from transport. The biggest negative is you have to be very mindful of curb strikes as they can bend the arms on the axle. The key to their installation is proper reinforcement of the trailer frame at and near the attachment points of the axle. Temporarily overloading of the axle is expected. I contacted Dexter in regards to the use of a trailer aid ramp to change a flat and was reassured the axle would be fine. Years ago we had a 32' triaxle cargo trailer with torsion axles and it performed just fine. Lippert likely recommends against their use on larger RVs because they make light duty, underdesigned frames. I do industrial machine design for a living so I have some understanding of structural design.
I have a 6x12 enclose trailer with dual axle and I carry house plants and cactus. Every time I do a market, all my plants go all over the place and I have to pot them again 😢. What do you recommend for that?
I wish you could do a full video on the sumo springs. I use them and have heard a manufacturer blame them for a frame breaking. As always thanks for all your info.
Got 25 year old torsion Axles under my trailer - they are bolted on - should they ever fail its 4 bolts and super simple to change the axle - half an hour. Modern RVs are stupid high of the ground. I get it for longer rigs. But even short ones. It makes everything worse - driving- swaying. Parking - getting in and out...
Great video,JD What do you think of Sumo Springs? We upgraded the suspension on our Springdale with CRE 3000 Equaliers , heavy-duty shackle straps, and wet bolts. Plus, we also added Sumo Springs. I can't tell you the difference it makes towing! Do you think the Suno Springs were overkill? I find they make a huge difference with trailer sway on windy days. I was also surprised that my original bushings were plastic.😮
@@BTBRVReviews I totally get that. But based on the video and the nature of the damage shown it certainly looked like that absent the sumo springs they would not own a unit that’s now totaled.
The manufactures cutting corners is still the problem, Lippert engineering wouldn't go for the torsions because they know their frame is not strong enough to do it. They are using the thinnest gauge chinieesium possible to cut cost.
You really think a travel trailer with leaf springs and decent equalizer is roughly equivalent to a torsion suspension?! I'm a total newbie (looking to purchase our first small/lightweight couple's travel trailer around 5500# UVW and tandem axle) and have really only been researching campers with standard torsion axles. Forget about maintenance/serviceability for a second (I understand the benefits of leaf springs over torsion in this regard), but are you aware of any scientific studies that have directly compared the two suspensions? Not exactly sure how one would do this, as ideally we'd use the exact same trailer with both suspensions and somehow compare "ride quality" (I guess the ability to control/isolate vertical movement maybe)? Maybe take travel trailer X with leaf springs plus a MORryde CRE3000 or Alltrek4000 and test/measure that only to replace its suspension system with a Dexter torflex and test it out with the new suspension the exact same way and compare the two? That would be an ideal objective test, albeit somewhat difficult, so is there another way one could somehow objectively compare the two? Thanks!
Every time I watch these videos it reminds me of Thing from the Adams Family. You never see this guy’s face. What’s he hiding from. Just a hand and a GIANT watch.
So here is the part I don’t get. Your saying (and Lippert too when it came to your 5th wheel) that with bigger heavier units the loss of equalization can lead to frame damage and thus they don’t suggest converting from leaf spring to torsion. But the Morryde IS is exactly that a torsion system. And it’s been i stalled on a lot of big heavy 5th wheels and some manufactures even have a deal where they will ship your unit to Morryde pre-delivery to have it installed. Yet I’ve never heard of a 5th wheel with the IS running into frame damage. Quite the contrary owners love that system. What am I missing here?
So the Morryde IS system provides more travel overall, so it's less likely a tire position will come off the ground. Also, a significantly reinforce the frame with large sectional tubes that carry the weight regardless of what tire is on the ground and loaded.
Although there maybe advantages to torsion axles, The simple fact that one axle must carry all the weight over things like speed bumps or large pot holes is enough for me to want leaf sprung axles. I own five trailers (equipment, dump, enclosed, 5th wheel and utility), All leaf JMHO
the really high quality stuff uses torsion axles and a heavy enough frame to tolerate.. ditch witch vac trailers are torque flex up to 10000 pounds they bounce less as well. springs are just plain the low quality system. if you have strong enough axles you are just plain WRONG that springs are better.
I’ve been using torsion axles for years, had them for over 10 years on my boat trailer and 6 years 20000 miles on my Rockwood, I like the 4 wheel independent feel, I will always pick torsion over leafs.
I literally just bought a used 2018 Rockwood signature.
I love the way it tows and handles.
I REALLY like the Dexter torsion axles on my travel trailer. Such a smooth ride.
And this is why I’m a subscriber. No fluff. Just facts. Good job.
Good video and great description. The issue like you said with the RV is the frame is not strong enough for it and that’s where the cost difference for the system comes in. I’ve towed a 32’ cargo trailer with torsion axles and I can tell you it’s a heck of a lot more planted then my 26’ box RV with a CRE3000. What really made the difference on ours was the sumo springs. It is more planted and less wishy washy, but nothing like the cargo trailer with the heavier frame and torsion axles.
Our '05 travel trailer had Torflex axles. We never had a problem with it for the 13 years we had it.
On aluminum trailers the torsion axles will be bolted in place and therefore easier to replace. This system is easier to build as a spread axle setup. Always check your equipment before a trip to avoid most problems.
Excellent breakdown!!!
I just purchased a camper with a torsion axle. Wow, smooth ride .
I installed this CRE 3000 to my 29 ft. Grey Wolf toy hauler last year and love it, rides better and no more noisy axels with the wet bolts, I would recommend it to anyone, installed it myself in about 6 hours with the right tools
Forgot to mention the Timbren silent ride, that’s a good hybrid between springs and torsion axles.
Very well explained.
JD, Luxe offers a torsion suspension now in collaboration with Kelderman air suspension. Spacecraft also offers torsion axles on their 5th wheels.
Yep.
Thanks for making the video. All this time I thought trailer manufacturers used leaf springs because they were considerably cheaper because customers do not ask "what kind of suspension the trailer has". I am still not convinced the manufacturers are cutting corners where they think no one is looking.
Another very informative video. We have the Intech Expedition with the Dexter Torsion Axles. Our previous trailer was a Keystone Bullet with the spring system. I have to say I like the torsion ride much better, but we never upgraded our springs with the MORryde.
Really value your opinion and research you do. I totally agree the trailer frame has to be designed a bit more robust for torsion axles. Only had my rockwood with torsion axles for 3 years. Zero axle problems. However I’ve had a Eby gooseneck cattle trailer with torsion axles for almost 20 years. No suspension problems. More than 100,000 miles. Hitch height does have to be adjusted to provide level ride to equalize weight. I’m sold. Thanks again for great information and a great channel.
When I updated from a fifth wheel with spring suspension to one with torsion axles, I could immediately tell that the ride/towing experience was much nicer with the torsion axles. The rigs weighed the same and I used the same tow vehicle, so it is clear that the axles made the difference. I suspect that the it's possible to buy a better spring suspension than the one I had, but I would have a hard time believing that you could get one that would ride as nice as a torsion axle setup.
Thanks for this great video, I know you mentioned the independent suspension quickly but I'd love to see a video diving into that as well.
Great explanation
I was looking for info to verify the necessity/importance of weight distribution. This helped me to understand better. Thanks.
These new comparison videos are great man. I’ve always had a good understanding for how an equalizer suspension setup works, but never known a lot about how the torsion setup works. All things considered, I believe the traditional equalizer suspension is better in most situations. The serviceability, ease of checking condition and ease of replacement are all reasons I would go with it. If you plan on towing that trailer much, and over rough terrain, I believe the torsion axle would wear a lot. But you wouldn’t be able to assess them to find out before failure.
We have a 5th wheel equipment trailer that was equipped with torsion axles. It has always bothered me how easy the wheels come off the ground. Also, if we switch trucks and the 5th wheel height isn't set perfect, 2 tires are clearly taking way more load. I would not opt for torsion axles in an application like this again. Great video.
I know a few people who have had bent torsion axles and Dexter made good by shipping replacement axles. I think the Dexter torsion axles carry a 10-12 year warranty.
Good video.
Then there are the new suspension systems from Curt that uses coil springs plus dual shocks like found on the Ember and a few others. I haven’t towed with that yet but am looking forward to doing so.
It’s interesting to see them assemble a torsion axle - they literally freeze the rubber portion and push it all together. Then it thaws and goes to work.
Nicely covered
I had a torsion susp go out on a motorcycle trailer. It was HARD to diagnose and made the tires wear out in like a quarter of the time. Trailer was all over the place. 550 lb loaded trailer. E trailer fixed me up. But for reasons you mention here. Upgraded spring leaf for me. Or air bags.
JD…I was seriously looking into the full independent from Reese I believe. Torsion would also be very close to independent as well.
Torsion is a form independent suspension. Each wheel can move up and down without affecting any other. That's one reason for their superior ride quality to leaf spring.
Very Nice video and all base on facts and no gessing. I would like to add some details on more deeper facts, not specified on your video, that change your mind about torsion suspensions.
1) the way tendem axles springs suspension is design and installed on trailer will always create high stress on the rear hanger bracket, by the fact that the sharkle on the rear axle are on wrong side. They are in front of the leaf springs. So, wen you hit a good streight bump, the natural dynamic forces will tend to move axle backward, but the spring want to go foreward, creating a shockload on the rear spring hanger bracket. That the reason why all car, truck and single axle trailer, sharkle are always in the back of spring.
2) with the equalizer in between the 2 axles, wen the trailer get lateral load ( side wind or fast turn by exemple), the rear and front axle of the loader side (the one that will drop) will automaticly get closer, and on the other side (axles are releasing load), axles will move away. This will make axles to be non parallel. Worse, axles will sreering the trailer on the loader side, creating side load on the pulling vehicule and forcingtires of the trailer to drag sideway on the road on the wrong side of the truck and trailer direction !!!
Those 2 bad effects are not present on torsion independent suspensions. They stay parallel all the time and the main Steel beam are always foreward of the wheel spindles. No rear shock load.
By the way, torsion suspensions can be bolted to the frame, to be able to replace them if needed.
Lance gives the option of shock absorbers on their trailers. I find that interesting. Damping the suspension would eliminate some of the bounce.
Well explained, thank you.
How do you know which size is correct for your 5th wheel? Great explanation.
Seen a pic of the cre 3000 shackles broke in half
Both the horse trailers have torsion axles. in addition to providing a low deck height for entry, they provide a very good ride free of abrupt jarring for the animals. Your explanation of driving over a speed bump was exactly what was happening to our 2015 38' toy hauler. The Equiflex was mounted incorrectly not allowing any movement, locked into position. this caused the springs to fail and bend backwards. I wrestled with the coach manufacturer and LCI for months and eventually lost the battle, cost me a lot of money to fix it properly. They told me I was carrying too much food in the kitchen. I have pictures on my channel
On high end marine aluminum trailers, they are bolted to the frame. I have 5 Myco trailers and all have torsion axles that are bolted. I suppose the people who go with steel might have them welded, but most high end boat trailers are aluminum
I should probably upgrade my work and play.
I have Dexter torsion axles on my 37'/12K Flagstaff 5th wheel and my 20'/10k cargo trailer. The ride quality is by far superior to leaf spring and maintenance is non-existent which leads to a cost savings due to reduced damage from transport. The biggest negative is you have to be very mindful of curb strikes as they can bend the arms on the axle. The key to their installation is proper reinforcement of the trailer frame at and near the attachment points of the axle. Temporarily overloading of the axle is expected. I contacted Dexter in regards to the use of a trailer aid ramp to change a flat and was reassured the axle would be fine. Years ago we had a 32' triaxle cargo trailer with torsion axles and it performed just fine. Lippert likely recommends against their use on larger RVs because they make light duty, underdesigned frames. I do industrial machine design for a living so I have some understanding of structural design.
Twin axle trailers have equalizers. That triangle shaped spring support is called an equalizer, whether it has rubber bumpers or not.
Pretty sure I made that clear my friend
You're right, you did. I missed it.@@BTBRVReviews
Coil Springs, shocks and abs disc brakes for every wheel is best.
For either of these systems, how does wheel spacing come into play? ie wide track vs narrow track, along with wheel and tire diameter?
I have a 6x12 enclose trailer with dual axle and I carry house plants and cactus. Every time I do a market, all my plants go all over the place and I have to pot them again 😢. What do you recommend for that?
Good info, enjoyed until 11 minutes in (music too loud) what happened.
Would you recommend placing these on cargo trailers? If so do you have them on yours? Which one?
I've NEVER seen a torsion axle welded to the frame.
Not really interested in RV's but does these same principles apply to Leaf springs and torsion axles of cargo and utility trailers?
Yes
I'd say damaging the frame is inevitable over time!
I wish you could do a full video on the sumo springs. I use them and have heard a manufacturer blame them for a frame breaking. As always thanks for all your info.
Got 25 year old torsion Axles under my trailer - they are bolted on - should they ever fail its 4 bolts and super simple to change the axle - half an hour. Modern RVs are stupid high of the ground. I get it for longer rigs. But even short ones. It makes everything worse - driving- swaying. Parking - getting in and out...
Great video,JD
What do you think of Sumo Springs? We upgraded the suspension on our Springdale with CRE 3000 Equaliers , heavy-duty shackle straps, and wet bolts. Plus, we also added Sumo Springs. I can't tell you the difference it makes towing! Do you think the Suno Springs were overkill? I find they make a huge difference with trailer sway on windy days. I was also surprised that my original bushings were plastic.😮
Be careful with the sumo springs. I recently saw a video where they did extensive frame damage to one couples 5th wheel totaling the unit.
@@jetdriverin all fairness, the owners of the RV pulled it into a position that it never should have been in.
Yes I saw that video they went into a ditch and the frame hit the road
@@BTBRVReviews I totally get that. But based on the video and the nature of the damage shown it certainly looked like that absent the sumo springs they would not own a unit that’s now totaled.
The manufactures cutting corners is still the problem, Lippert engineering wouldn't go for the torsions because they know their frame is not strong enough to do it. They are using the thinnest gauge chinieesium possible to cut cost.
You really think a travel trailer with leaf springs and decent equalizer is roughly equivalent to a torsion suspension?! I'm a total newbie (looking to purchase our first small/lightweight couple's travel trailer around 5500# UVW and tandem axle) and have really only been researching campers with standard torsion axles. Forget about maintenance/serviceability for a second (I understand the benefits of leaf springs over torsion in this regard), but are you aware of any scientific studies that have directly compared the two suspensions? Not exactly sure how one would do this, as ideally we'd use the exact same trailer with both suspensions and somehow compare "ride quality" (I guess the ability to control/isolate vertical movement maybe)? Maybe take travel trailer X with leaf springs plus a MORryde CRE3000 or Alltrek4000 and test/measure that only to replace its suspension system with a Dexter torflex and test it out with the new suspension the exact same way and compare the two? That would be an ideal objective test, albeit somewhat difficult, so is there another way one could somehow objectively compare the two? Thanks!
Every time I watch these videos it reminds me of Thing from the Adams Family. You never see this guy’s face. What’s he hiding from. Just a hand and a GIANT watch.
So here is the part I don’t get. Your saying (and Lippert too when it came to your 5th wheel) that with bigger heavier units the loss of equalization can lead to frame damage and thus they don’t suggest converting from leaf spring to torsion.
But the Morryde IS is exactly that a torsion system. And it’s been i stalled on a lot of big heavy 5th wheels and some manufactures even have a deal where they will ship your unit to Morryde pre-delivery to have it installed. Yet I’ve never heard of a 5th wheel with the IS running into frame damage. Quite the contrary owners love that system.
What am I missing here?
So the Morryde IS system provides more travel overall, so it's less likely a tire position will come off the ground. Also, a significantly reinforce the frame with large sectional tubes that carry the weight regardless of what tire is on the ground and loaded.
Although there maybe advantages to torsion axles, The simple fact that one axle must carry all the weight over things like speed bumps or large pot holes is enough for me to want leaf sprung axles. I own five trailers (equipment, dump, enclosed, 5th wheel and utility), All leaf JMHO
the really high quality stuff uses torsion axles and a heavy enough frame to tolerate.. ditch witch vac trailers are torque flex up to 10000 pounds they bounce less as well. springs are just plain the low quality system. if you have strong enough axles you are just plain WRONG that springs are better.
However, super high end commercial hotshot trailers use springs or Airbags.
Yoe can tell these are the opinions of someone working for Lippert.
Not at all. Considering the vast majority of what I was showing was Dexter, Morryde, and etrailer springs. Thanks for "assuming though".
Oh and you may not be aware, but Lippert makes Torsion axles as well.
I know I chose not to bring up your e-trailer sponsorship selling those items@@BTBRVReviews
Your facts are partly wrong. All New Horizons Trailers are heavy they have MORryde trosion axles are much better than leaf....
I have reviewed several New Horizons RVs.
You have no clue about torsion systems.
Really, please take a few sentences to educate me.