LaserDisc: You’re Watching It Wrong
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- CHAPTERS LISTED IN DESCRIPTION BELOW
Culturedog Sam Hatch is back with another in-depth LaserDisc video, this time delving into controversial “aspect ratio” issues concerning watching old media on modern HDTVs.
Letterboxing, pillarboxing, windowboxing, zooming and stretching - there’s a lot to unpack in the deceptively complex art of viewing “widescreen” LDs on “widescreen” televisions.
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
4:10 Fun With Shapes
8:56 Letterboxing
12:46 Enter HDTV
18:59 Widescreen Laserdisc
22:52 Zoom-A Zoom Zoom
29:05 Squeeze LDs
36:04 Aspect Ratio Police
Cheers to the creative folks in the LaserDisc Forever Facebook group for generating the many memes used in this video!
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My dad told me a story that he hated when cinemascope movies came to his local theater because all the people would be stretched vertically. I told him the reason for that was the theater didn't have the anamorphic lens to unsqueeze the image.
Oh wow, that's a trip! But yeah, I can totally see some theaters just projecting the anamorphic prints as-is! I've been to a few preview screenings where they've started showing the film that way, but they'd always fix it within a few minutes.
i recall seeing movies on TV, and they'd "Pan & Scan" the movie, but during the credits on an anamorphic movie, they have the whole original image, but scrunched to get all the credits on screen -- as a kid, I thought this was the way it was supposed to be (I didn't no that during the movie, I was missing the sides of the original image).
So in turn the smarter the tech gets, the dumber we get
Yeah, because we don't need to use our brains, to operate it.
@@badreality2 Thanks to many technological advances we've forgotten how to do many things which before required effort.
I remember a conversation a buddy of mine and I were having back in the days before HDTV about the new aspect ratio issues we were going to see once 1.85-1 aspect ratio would become standard. Now here the situation is today and an whole generation after us has little to no understanding of these issues, that is before this fine and very informative video that explains it. Thanks, Culturedog and here is hopes that this video helps the younger generations essentially 'get the picture.'
Excellent content as always Sam, always a nice treat to see a notification from your channel. Especially for a 45 minute video!
Thanks! I'm already catching some flak for the running time haha, but I decided against splitting it up into 7 smaller videos. Thanks for checking it out!
My dad lived in a semi small town with a couple of theaters. He told me he hated cinemascope movie because everything was stretched tall. Apparently, the theater never got the lens to unsqueeze the image.
That's wild! I've been to a few screenings where they've forgotten to use the right lens, but thankfully I would only have to tolerate a minute or two of super squished imagery before they would figure it out. It would definitely drive me crazy having to watch the entire runtime like that!
I know people that back when they started Letterboxing movies on tv, tape, and LD felt they were being ripped off because their whole 4:3 screen wasn't being filled with an image.
Oh yeah, same. Part of the job of being an LD collector back in the day was constantly having to deliver impromptu seminars to random friends and family on the benefits of letterboxing. It was always an adventure!
This is the best explanation I have seen. Thank you, especially with that zoom mode :)
You're welcome! Thanks for watching!
I will from now on post shots of my LD 'screenshots' upside down AND stretched out on LD4EVER... just to trigger the ARPD 😂
Oh no! Don't taunt the ARPD - who knows what they'll do to retaliate!? Haha
@@Culturedog The retaliation? The number of scathing memes and gifs in the comment section will certainly increase to intolerable levels 😂
You might find that there will be viewers who don't notice it. I've found many who happily watch movies that are stretched horizontally by a factor of ~1.5
It's still a pet peeve when I switch to an HD channel showing an older TV show and they've stretched the image to fit a 16:9 frame, completely distorting the image.
Absolutely! Thankfully, I don't encounter it as often as I did in the mid-2000s, but it's still jarring to see!
Older episodes of The Simpson's and Family Guy have not been shown correctly on certain channels like FXX or TBS. It pisses me off. It especially pisses me off when old sports clips in a 30 for 30 are cropped to widescreen. There is no point in zooming in on standard definition videotape source.
Did you see how Snyder released his Justice League cut in 4:3 on 4KUHD? To think that back on the 30s and 40s that was the standard ratio known as "academy ratio".
@@silvervalleystudios2486 The Academy Ratio (standardized in 1932) was 1.375:1 which is slightly wider than 4:3 (1.33:1). 4:3 was used during the silent era since it was the native aspect ratio of 35mm (without a soundtrack) and later saw reuse as the aspect ratio for television.
@@1987VCRProductions Good thing they changed it. It's OK for Citizen Kane and The Postman Always Rings Twice. But I can't imagine epics like Ben Hur or Khartoum shot on 1.37:1. Hitchcock never shot on Cinemascope, shame because I think Vertigo would have looked awesome on it.
I've been very curious when it comes to the LD format. This video was a great way to fill in some of my blanks. Might buy a player next time one shows up. Although the format was not exactly huge here in Norway there are still some in circulation. Keep up the good work - I'll keep watching, both old and new videos on you channel. Thanks!
Thanks! I know a few LD collectors in Norway. There actually was a small LaserDisc convention in Oslo for a few years running.
Thanks for the feedback! Cheers!
Going to start collecting laserdisc. Glad I found this channel. hits the memberberries of watching ducktales on LD as a kid
Ducktales and Talespin were my jam back in the day! Sadly, I don't have any on LD, but those are going for decent money now.
Hello From Montreal. Awesome Information! Thank you
Great informative video. 👍This informative helped me alot to achieve proper viewing of laserdiscs on my wide-screen tv. I do have a question about the dvn-r setting on my laserdisc player (dvl-91). Should I leave this off or on? To me it looks better off, but I wanted to ask what you would recommend. Thanks.
Early DVDs can have this too as I was reminded when I played my original Scream DVDs on my HDTV on my PlayStation 4 recently. Had a tiny little windowbox going on.
Yup, I've got a small stack of early DVDs that weren't anamorphically enhanced. I still remember getting the Conan "Complete Quest" DVD set in the mid-2000s and being surprised that the 2nd film was windowbox city.
Most earlier DVDs were straight transfer from laserdisc thus the 4:3 letterbox
@@freddykruger1118 From LaserDisc masters, not from LaserDiscs. LaserDisc masters from that time period were usually on D-1 tape which was uncompressed 720 × 486 YCbCr digital video with 4:2:2 chroma subsampling. That exceeds the specifications of DVD video (MPEG-2 compressed 720 × 480 YCbCr digital video with 4:2:0 chroma subsampling), so it was perfectly suitable for use as a DVD master as well as a LaserDisc master.
Funny enough I had the exact same issue with my scream dvd
Great video! I've been looking forward to this one.
Thanks man! Hope it was worth the wait! Took a little longer than anticipated! Haha
That was the looongest video I've ever watched WITHOUT ANY backing track...yet I was still fully engaged with. Seriously, nice job. Great video!
[No Sarcasm; Seriously, great video]
Thanks! Yeah, there's a lot going on in this one. Haha! That's awesome to hear that you were engaged throughout. Cheers!!
Just stumbled on your channel, I still have LDs (have about 300 discs) but dont play them much now, I got into the format during the CD-V reboot in the 80' but never got a machine until the late 80's it was a Marantz CV-55 (at that time I lived in the land of PAL) now live in Canada. Took my collection and machines with me (running my 220v gear on step downs) But I would bring in LD from "Ken Cranes' and 01-laser and video, got some in from japan. Had a CLD-1450 for some time as it could also output NTSC then my last player that I still use today my DVL-919e, my question is you talk that you can improve the picture, do you have a video on that I cant find one. Want to see how if possible I can clean up the signal I see lots of drop outs / noise now on some discs, a few with root. Im using the S-VHS output on my 919e curious on your video chain for improved output. Just watched your DTS video and amazingly I dont have any DTS LD's 😂 I have two AC-3 DD LDs that sound amazing.
Great segment! I remember back in the day, watching Ghostbusters on our tube TV. Having seen it theatrically several times, I could tell how much of the image they were cropping out, and it irritated the crap out of me; I became a convert to original aspect ratio around that time. My current UHDTV has just one Zoom setting - I swear it trims a little bit off my 1:85 LDs but otherwise the picture looks really good (Windowboxing I admit pushes my limits, it feels like Peep-Hole-Vision).
Peep-Hole-Vision! I like that! Haha
Do you run a HDMI converter from your LD player
Try turning off overscan
Thanks for posting this. Question: Does using an S-Video cable vs. Composite cable affect the AR in any way? Also, do you prefer composite over S-Video cables? I'm using an Epson projector. Thanks!
No problem! S-video and composite will both deliver the same 4:3 AR, so there are no extra issues to worry about thankfully.
You can try them both, but the general rule of thumb is that composite is usually the way to go. LD video is natively composite, so there's no inherent edge to using s-video like with digital media.
The other factor is that the composite video on LD needs to be split into chroma and luma signals before a TV can use it. The S-video out on the player uses the player's built-in comb filter, which is probably not as advanced as the one in your projector. Still, if you don't mind experimenting, you can test out both options.
There's also the added complication of some digital-era players splitting the y/c signal internally, adding some processing, and then recombining it before sending it to the composite output. So even using the composite output doesn't guarantee a pure, unmessed-with signal. The rabbit hole goes pretty deep! Haha
Ironically, with the recent resurgence of IMAX aspect ratio in a lot of modern commercial films like Oppenheimer, Justice League (which re-approaches a 4:3 ratio), we might see 4:3 ratio large flat screens (4K, etc.) - probably not.
Yeah, it is funny how I finally got myself a Constant Image Height screen setup right around the same time everyone wants to celebrate 4:3 or similar ratios. At least I'm happy. haha
Wonderful video to explain the confusion of aspect ratio and screen adjustments. I remember the frustration back in the day when I worked @ a Good Guys! store and arguing with people about what widescreen was about on 4:3 TVs'. It was a losing battle and I eventually just came to accept that people want what people want.
Thanks! Oh man, I can only imagine what I was like being on the front lines like that! It was definitely an uphill battle at times as an enthusiast, but trying to explain widescreen to the consumers at large must have been quite the trial!
Culturedog The other worst thing back then was also trying to explain the differences between 8mm and VHS-C. I remember one person in particular would not accept my explanation that there was no such thing as an “8mm to VHS adapter” to play 8mm in a full size VHS deck. I ended that conversation by offering him $1000 if he could prove it to me; never saw the guy again 🙄.
@@MovieGuy846 that's hilarious! I still have my VHS-C adapter, but that's a different beast than 8mm!
Great video! Very informative
Thanks for watching! Cheers!
That info about the "1" at 7:45 is really interesting. I thought I knew a lot about aspect ratios, but I never knew that. Thanks!
Glad to be of assistance! Thanks for watching the video!
Awesome in-depth vid 👍🏼.
Thanks man! Glad you liked it!
Brilliant Sam, a very well addressed video on a controversial and complex subject. I do think with laserdiscs having an image processor like a DVDO or similar helps a lot with getting the correct aspect ratio. Cheers, Alan.
Thanks Alan! Yeah, I do like knowing that I can do it 'right' on my DVDO with no fuss.
Dog, just came across this video. Good stuff. So I have a Mitsubishi Dlp tv that only has hdmi and component inputs. My Pioneer LD player has composite out and s-video. What resolution output should I set my video scaler ? It goes all the way to 1080p. Will the Tv take over regardless and set the pic to its native resolution?
I bought one of those RCA to HDMI converter boxes a few years back, and it just stretched the whole image to 16x9 and did nothing to improve the image. I sent it back. I have a Roku Insignia HDTV, and it has a few options for this. There's "zoom" as well as "auto," "direct," and "normal." "Auto" sometimes gets confused and stretches the 4x3 image at times, but I don't tend to use it. "Direct" is just the raw video dimensions as it is with no adjustments (oddly, with VHS "auto" and "direct" have a slight variation in the width of the image, but not the height). However, "normal" zooms the image in very slightly in case you've got a VHS tape with some of that noisy overscan. It'll zoom in a bit to hide those edges for a cleaner image. Thankfully, it doesn't have that silly panoramic mode at all, just the "stretch" option, which I almost never have a use for.
Yeah, those little boxes seem to be a waste of money - they probably sell a ton of them too! Glad to hear your TV has some usable options!
Excellently explained. I'm sure a lot of people are used to this but new to the format can be hell.
Thanks mate! Yeah, between the stack of audio options and confusing aspect ratios, it can be a real nightmare!
@@Culturedog really good my friend, be intersting to see what people do with open matte, seen some zoom them into wide-screen and lose top/bottom, thoughts?
@@Laserdreamz that's the topic of my next big obnoxious video actually! Haha
@@Laserdreamz Good topic. I have a few open matte LD's like The Return of the Living Dead that loses info when zoomed in but of course that's info that wasn't theatrically shown.
great ,interesting infos! Dude, you are very knowledge on it! . thx for your video
Sorry for the late reply, but thanks for watching! Glad to hear you enjoyed the video!
When you talk about people not wanting to mess with the tv settings I’m reminded of the movie idiocracy where people become so dumb an average Joe is a genius.
Hey Sam, is there usually a resolution/ overall picture quality difference between Pan & Scan discs and their Letterbox equivalents, if they're not "remastered"?
For example I'm looking at picking up Gremlins on LD and there's two US Warner versions, the 1985 disc and the 1990 widescreen edition.
Sorry for the late reponse! Letterboxed releases technically take an overall resolution hit due to the screen area wasted on black bars, but a 90s letterboxed disc will generally have a newer master compared to old 4:3 discs. I only have the 1990 version of Gremlins, so I haven't compared them directly. But 90s WB discs usually have nice transfers.
About 15 years ago a coworker was arguing with me that full screen movies are the original format and widescreen movies are made by just chopping off the top and bottom sections of the full movie frame, He argued that if the widescreen are the original format then why they don't call them full, Trust me I tried to reason with him with all the evidence you can imagine to no avail.
I remember a class-action lawsuit that went nowhere over properly matted Blu-Rays of flat films. It never fails to cause some confusion or stir up arguments. I've definitely had to walk away from some discussions that were going around in circles!
thanks for all these infos.
No problem! Thanks for checking out the video!
Brilliant, thank you. Excellent vulgarisation!
This is a really good guide Sam, appreciate it :)
Thanks my friend! Cheers!
Well done... excellent review of aspect ratios.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed the video!
thanks for all your videos! im just starting to get in to LD collecting and was wondering your thought on a set up for my LD watching. witch would be better for watching.
goning set it up in my game room, i have a early 2000's (non HD) sony CRT, or a new 4K 75inch sony or i was thinking of getting a projector. what would be the best?
I do love watching LDs on my Sony projector, but they always shine on those 2000s-era Sony CRTs. I had a Trinitron for a while and LDs looked fantastic on it. That's probably the easiest plug-and-play solution. That said, LDs do look decent enough going straight in to my SXRD projector, but I've since added a few more devices in the signal chain. That's probably the setup I get the most use out of.
I remember when plasma TV's came out with their widescreen box at like $20,000 a piece. I also remember my first widescreen 38" RCA HDTV Ready TV from 2003. It's amazing how many formats I've gone through in my lifetime and the various tools I bought to enjoy them. Currently I have a LG 55" UHD TV and I'm loving all the various aspect ratios I can select. I prefer just watching LaserDisc in the 4:3 style, since I loose so much quality during a zoom. If there was a TV that preserved the picture quality during the zoom then I'd totally be interested in that. At any rate, thanks for a wonderful video. Take care, Sam.
Thanks for checking it out! Oh yeah, those early plasmas were pricy beasts! I remember wanting a Pioneer Kuro when those dropped later, but never did go for it. Enjoy that LG! Cheers!
I'm still using my Samsung 64" plasma. Watched Batman Begins on Boy Ray the other night. Can't believe the black is still so solid on it.
Still using my Panasonic Plasma, which has been going strong for 13 years. When it dies, I'll get an OLED.
@@robertromero8692 I have my Panasonic Plasma from 2009 in my spare bedroom. It's still working very well. Those TVs are built well.
Do you have a recommendation for an upscaling device that is around 50 - 75 dollar range? Or a good television to recommend?
Processors are a crazy rabbit hole, especially under $200 or so - so many options and variations, so it's tough to say what's 'best'. I've had a few different devices that all did me right, from early-2000s Panasonic DVD recorders to Faroudja NRS processors etc. I will say, I have a super low end Hisense-made Sharp Aquos 4K TV I got a few years ago and I love how LD looks on it. Came with a legacy composite video input and everything.
Culturedog
Can you do a basics videos on getting the best picture quality watching these LaserDiscs?
Cables, what to look out for/Avoid ,
S-Video Compo. Entry upscalers to highend.
R7G is a good for NTSC?
DoGg you killing it. Thanks again
Can do! I've been working on putting together a bunch of shorter basics videos, so this sort of thing will fit in perfectly.
I am going to do a video on the R7G too, since I finally got one myself not too long ago. So far, it's a great performer!
A dead giveaway for a movie filmed in anamorphic is anytime you see a lens flare it will be oval shaped (as opposed to circular) from the stretching process.
There needs to a band called Anamorphic Lens Flare!
bravo. i just finished this video. i loved it. i used to care much more than i do these days about getting it right. it's as if i have gotten lazy in my old age.
Thanks man! Yeah, it's funny how some stuff changes in priority over the years!
In 1998, JVC introduced HD on VHS and it was of course digital
Look up W-VHS and MUSE LaserDisc. They were already doing HD before 1998. Analogue, too.
Was just watching MUSE Back to the Future the other night. Such an interesting format.
I never did get into D-VHS collecting, but I remember Widescreen Review magazine covering it extensively at the time. True Lies is still a popular one among the active collectors I know.
I've got a question for you I came across this pioneer reciver PIONEER ELITE VSX-59TXi. Will this work for my Pioneer Rosewood Elite DVL-90 LD
For audio, that would be a cool find, as I believe that has an AC-3 RF input for LaserDisc players, and the DVL-90 has an RF out.
For video, it will definitely convert incoming composite video to its component outputs, though its comb filter may or may not be better than the one built-in to your LG TV. You could always compare running the LD player through the receiver vs. going direct to the TV and see which performs better. I also don't believe the receiver offers any aspect ratio controls, so you'd still need to operate those on the TV.
Thank goodness for the introduction of letterboxing. Pan and scan SUCKS.
Bro thanks for editing your content.
So glad it's finally done! Haha
My first widescreen tv was Thomson 32" CRT. It had multiple aspect ratio and zoom modes. I usually zoomed letterboxed "windowbox" programs to minimize black bars but kept correct aspect ratio.
I always wanted a widescreen CRT set in the 90s, but there weren't many models on the market and my local stores didn't carry them usually.
I wish more TVs had a simple proportional zoom option that was clearly labeled. Though my Sony displays were always pretty user friendly with zoom options, thankfully.
heads up, most of the new Samsungs with composite inputs (40 inches and smaller I believe not too sure) usually have scaling of ratios built in! my Samsung at my grandmas can scale by percentages
Yeah, my bedroom Samsung scales incrementally as well. It's kind of a pain at first to set it up right, but once it's done I can bounce back and forth between 16:9, 4:3 and Custom easily. I like that if I need to, I can use it to fine tune less wide ratios such as 1.66:1 - like the old Bond films. Very cool.
Is window boxing an LD image on an HD TV the only way to actually see the intended resolution of a widescreen/letterbox LD?
I did notice the best images from LD come when I use 16:9 on a widescreen OLED TV. If I try and zoom the image I get a lot of distortion. Also using a cheap amazon HDMI converter probably isn't helping anything.
HDTVs have to scale up material to match their native display resolution, so even windowboxed, LDs are being scaled to an extent.
Some zoom options are decent. I use a DVDO Edge Green that zooms well, and some of the options built into displays do a solid job. It can definitely enhance some negative image artifacts (especially discs with a lot of aliasing), but I don't really notice any major resolution losses. Smaller windowboxed images can appear a tad sharper though. Some people have major complaints about zooming though. But I'm not sure if they have worse video processing or better eyesight. Or both.
I'll start to notice more image issues if I go crazy and overzoom to fill my scope projection screen, but that's just silliness to blow up LDs that big. It is fun to do occasionally, though!
Very informative vid! I've seen the stretch many times, especially with dvds and some cable. I had no idea what it was, just figured it was the way it was for some movies. Some movies for whatever reason, I prefer letterbox. Others, I can't stand it. I also learn to somehow enjoy movies only after watching it on TV, edited versions after watching the theatrical versions. I also prefer unrated director cuts. I'm a character to say the least. 😅
Great Info - I just found your channel.
Thanks man! Welcome aboard!
I'd like to keep my set up CRT. I have a 27" trinitron for gaming rn. Is that okay for LaserDisc, or do you recommend a certain TV and/or screen size for CRT LaserDisc viewing? I like having two setups. I have my modern 4k TV with my Xbox One, Switch, and Wii U. I'm saving for a 600-disc Blu-ray changer.
Then, I have my CRT setup for my Xbox 360 and older consoles, Sony SLV-AV100U VCR, Sony DVP-CX860 400-disc DVD/CD changer, I think that I'd like to get a Quasar LD500 for my first LaserDisc player, and I'm still trying to narrow down the BetaMax player and turntable I want
A 27inch CRT TV is fine for LaserDisc. A 27inch display will absolutely show the improvement LaserDisc has over VHS.
I still have a 27inch Sony Trinitron CRT TV from 2002 that I use for VHS, LaserDisc, and vintage video games. LaserDiscs look outstanding on it.
I have a few LaserDisc players and whenever I get new LaserDiscs I first watch them on my 27inch CRT and then later on I watch them on my HDTV with my surround sound system.
How do you think a laserdisc player would look on a 4:3 sony trinitron flat screen?
Should look great - I was using one for a few years at the office for LD lunch breaks and it had an awesome picture. Their only drawback is that some of them have picture geometry issues, but the one I had was fine.
The other thing I’m sure people do is for 2.35:1 Blu-Rays they may get distorted because people use the zoom feature to get rid of the black bars present on the Blu-Ray. It can be especially bad on something like a 4K tv where you need the image preserved as best as possible. My friends 4K doesn’t know how to not stretch a composite video image. It has a native input, is made by Visio, and yet you can’t actually turn off the stretch of 4:3 content
I never really had any problems with the aspect ratio. Perhaps one reason for this is that I was a late adopter of widescreen. I got my first 16:9 PC monitor in 2010. Interestingly, you can still use a 4:3 PC monitor in 2024 without any problems. There is no stretching. If you look at a TH-cam video, you will see black bars, but everything looks fine. So I guess I was used to correct aspect ratio and black bars early and for a long time. 😀
what is the best route for an home theater for a laserdisc player do I need to get a 5.1 or can do the same setup in 7.1 please help ive been searching for the past two weeks on google not finding the information
You can do either, though 7.1 isn't a 'must' for LD and/or smaller rooms. That said, I've got a 7.1 setup in my main room, which isn't that big. Since there were no LDs with center surround signal flags (even Dolby Digital EX 6.1 discs), you'll need to manually turn on a center surround mode on the receiver/processor.
You can either turn it on specifically for DD EX discs (though there aren't that many) or leave it on with 5.1 discs as well, which will still have 'phantom center' information that the processor can grab and redirect to the surround centers.
Likewise, on a 7.1 system, you can also try Dolby ProLogic IIx on LDs with simpler stereo surround tracks. In any case, if your processor has enough options, you can choose to use or not use all of these 'enhancements' - so it just gives you more options basically. Even though I have a 7.1 rig, I can still watch LDs in stereo if I feel like it.
I know it's not really a question of aspect ratio but dev. a question how you watch your laserdisc and that is: "Watch them in the correct framerate" I just recently dig into this topic and it's very hard to find a 1080/24 converter. I'm not sure if those Pull Down feature of 23.976 or 24p are done automatically on newer TVs or not but loads of ~10y old scalers struggle with that feature.
Yeah, there's actually a Denon processor that's been picking up steam lately because of how solid its 24p delivery is with LD source material. I've been tempted to grab one myself to see how it performs compared to my DVDO.
Definitely an interesting facet to dig into further!
Oddly enough, Back in early 90's before DVD my sister had a CTR TV that her husband imported from France that has an option to squeeze the picture vertically only leaving black bars on top and bottom, Never understood what that was for until I heard about anamorphic contents 30 years later and that was an aha moment for me. The brand was Thomson.
That's wild! It's cool how many TVs were integrating cutting edge features in the early to mid-90s, even if they remained fairly obscure here in North America.
Good info. I assume I'm one of the guys you pointed at who viewed his movies correctly. But, even if you are an experienced pro (as I worked in network tv), our TVs and the related players use terms incorrectly or in a confusing way. If it says "letterbox" as an option, which does it mean? Gonna stretch the original image to "look like the movies" or is it meant to make a no-chop 1to1 squares on the screen if the *media* was letterboxed and show all the black pixels? You have to know what you're looking for and I saw those icons on your tv, not easy to understand.
Their interest of making it more "user friendly" actually may have hurt proper understanding for what is going on. Every single device I've owned, I had to do a deep dive with tests to get the shapes and color to actually be correct. Sometimes never really getting the tv to auto-function correctly between devices and having to do manual adjustments for viewing certain formats as if I'm the projectionist between the format and the television. When I wasn't looking, sometimes my device decided "coneheads" was the proper aspect ratio and I was real glad no co-workers of mine were around to see the miss-hap.
The aspect ratio for each film changes at director discretion too, with some even considering tv in their composition and editing. But they *SHOULD* have adjusted the letterbox portion in the media itself so that you don't have to as long as your settings for aspect ratio leads to a 1/1 box or sphere in ideal situations. That's the price you pay, but the specialists in my field took that work very seriously. THey hated "pan and scan" as much as you did. I have a friend and co-worker who invented the first film scanners with his brother at a major VFX house to make some of the very first digital movie scans in history in order to do digital effects work. They were meticulous, and tried to get as near perfect capture as possible. Don't throw that work out.
Unlike my friend's scans, your tv screen or projector is still using some real estate for those black pixels of the letterbox as if it is the movie. Assuming you knew what you were doing. At most, that is 720x486 lines for D1 NTSC for televisions of the day. Obviously, that "squishes" to fit into a mostly square TV or monitor and it means your tv pixels are not square. Unfortunately most devices could not send even 486 lines of information even if your set/monitor could view it. We had to limit some colors thank the fact that some older sets could break with true white or true black (for example). We did 486 for broadcast in the 1990s because technology had come along. We edited, saved, and output at the full "D1" resolution. For comparison, VHS could only do 240 lines. Laserdisk used 425 lines, that was *near* the max setting achievable.
The reason I am intimately aware of those pixels is because I sometimes had to paint frame by agonizing frame in photoshop in the 90s. I did some of the first Photoshop batches to de-interlace and re-interlace frames so that I could paint them. Ironically I named it the "the field generator" and cackled like Palpatine every time I said my little play on words there. >insert
i really HATE when TV and other networks they CUT OFF the bottom and top of analog tape 4:3 content in order to fill a 16:9 screen, it happened infamously with the simpsons in FOX and disney+, and lots of old analog content which became a blurry cut off image forever, even worse, not bothering to properly digitize analog tape to 60 or 50 FPS as the original was , and people are stuck with just choppy 30 frames per secord forever.
35:08 My Apocalypse Now LD is like that, confused me. The 2:1 ratio added to my confusion, LDDB says they also pan&scanned it a tad.
Also says it's the first (unofficial) THX LD.
Could you give me a good model laserdisc player to look for for my first player under $200
You can't get the best out of Laserdiscs without a crt projector. They look awful on HD flat-screens even with a "decent" upscaler.
It would be good to have a list of TVs which allow 1% step zooming and panning in both directions. Not only for Laserdisks. I suppose someone might already have compiled one...
When I bought my 16:9 (3D) TV (in or before 2016) I went to the store and tested the zoom option of the ones available and found one from LG. Then I watch 21:9 movies with 11% zoom with the picture moved to the top of the screen and a small black bar at the bottom which sometimes is useful for status displays.
The small cut off area left and right is not needed most of the time. Usually only for BD/DVD menues, credits and monument valley views I switch back to unzoomed mode. Without zoom I deem the image too small at my watching distance for 21:9 or 2.33:1.
Note: in PC mode most options are not available on most TVs. So if you use PC or Mac to stream switch to another TV mode and then switch off most imange enhancements as they delay the output. You can't reliablely control the mouse otherwise (or play a game). Often Game Mode is a good option without lag.
Excellent video.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
automatic mode should work gallantly as it is reminiscent of when you could watch the same TV channel both digitally and analogously. which had the effect that even if you watched the channel analogously, it was black up and black down on the tv screen. and most TVs fixed this
Question my dvl 90 is causing way more problems however I'm eyeing on a dvl 91 what is your honest thoughts on it
Oh hey! I found your video - sorry, that was the page for my radio show and I didn't check it until this weekend. My bad!
The DVL-91's very similar - it's mostly an upgrade on the DVD side of things. LD functionality is about the same. Though I can't remember if that had adjustable noise reduction or not. I'll check.
I have a "Direct" option on my tv. I take this to assume that it is displaying in the source ratio.
One would hope! What brand is it?
The main issue with VHS is it’s so low resolution that without pan and scan you miss so very very much detail and they got pretty darn good at doing it with minimal objectionable side effects. Some movies just can’t be panned and scanned like Lawrence of Arabia though.
When did you get component video video connection in USA. here in europe we had scart RGB quite early
It took us a long while - some of the first DVD players had component outs, but only on the higher end models. The first component device I bought was the 2nd-wave Panasonic model I got in 1999 if I recall correctly.
my DVL-909 is from 98 and has YPbPr (component) for the DVD playback.
I remember as a teenager in the mnid 2010s my dad had a 2008 RCA HDTV, I think it's 27'' and he would always put in cinema mode, which zooms the picture in. It would drive me crazy cause it would cut off an entire part of the picture in all directions, people looked half decapitated. I'ts funny, my grandmother bought it new, she got a discount on it cause the built in DVD player didn't work, but nearly 20 years later the TV part works like new.
my telefunken TV from 1994 had 16/9 mode even though the screen itself was in 4/3
Telefunken! Nice! I recorded an album at the Telefunken microphone facility over here in the states. We did get finally 16:9 modes on some of the fancier Sony TVs etc., but it took a while.
Hiya, Sam.
I'm thinking of getting a projector for both my blu rays/dvds as well my laserdiscs. I have an upscaler, and am wondering if you have any recommendations. I've seen some projectors with native 1080p for around $100-$150, but am wondering if those are solid picks for LD as well. I'd love 4K, but it's unaffordable for me.
Hey Eric! I'm a sucker for LCoS projectors personally - either Sony SXRD or JVC D-ILA ones. They might be pushing that budget ceiling a little bit, but you can get some used 1080p models for smoking hot deals now that everyone's upgrading to the 4K models.
@@Culturedog thanks for the heads-up, Sam! When projecting the picture just onto a wall, do you still use the 4:3 and Zoom functions like with a widescreen tv?
Yeah, it's pretty much identical. I usually use my DVDO processor to do it, but my Sony projector has 4 or 5 aspect ratio options built in, so I can also just run composite video direct into it and still have full zoom control if I feel like it.
@@Culturedog thanks, man! This is a new world for me
Thought this was going to go into the physics relationship between the signal encoded on the LD and the actual drive of the electron gun and some of the amazing modulation/dithering tricks that were done with mastering that signal for the physics of CRT guns. Even with a decent upscaler like the one in my Onkyo amp, when you go into the digital domain youre destroying that relationship.
My smart tv has aspect ratio settings:
Normal - it is preset to fit the aspect ratio. It automatically does 4:3 for my laserdisc
Panoramic - so it looks distorted
Wide - it stretches the image
Zoom - I cannot adjust the zoom so I assume it is a smart zoom.
I have read that TV stations get complaint calls when they show correct 4:3 content with black bars on the sides. People react furious about that. So when TV stations stretch the image it is not because they dont know it is wrong, they do it because Average Joe or Average Lisa just likes a full screen image. No matter what.. 😀
Awesome video Sam!
Thanks man! Cheers!
Back in the late 1980s when rear-projection TVs were the top-of-the-line item, they did manufacture some widescreen rear-projection TVs (not sure if they were an exact 16:9 aspect ratio, I would assume close to it).
There are some old demo videos uploaded on YT that feature these TVs (such as the Pioneer Optics '88 LD rip). I assume the scaling for these older TVs were much easier to tweak for special letterbox LDs compared to our modern "smart" TVs.
Great video by the way, these explanations were very informative. 👍
I wish I had been able to pick up one of the early widescreen RPTVs - by the time I bought my first projection set, they had pretty much given up on marketing 16:9 models in my area (until HD rolled in). I should look for some user manual scans to see how easy the zoom modes were to utilize.
I should also grab a copy of that Laser Optics disc. I have the '89 version like everyone else, but the '88 one is great too!
Thanks for watching the video! Glad you enjoyed it!
This video should be mandatory watching for anyone attempting to watch analogue sources on a modern TV.
Thanks a ton!
I still have my 68cm Sony Wega packed away. Waiting for the day I score a good LD player. Going to plug it in with some Component cables and connect to an amp with an optical cable. Bring back the 90s
I enjoyed that 👍
🇬🇧
Widescreen for laserdisc was designed for 4:3 aspect ratio. That's what was available at the time
Everyone thinks I'm nuts when I point out a 2.35 movie has been cropped by a cable channel to fit a widescreen TV. I can usually tell just because the shot composition doesn't look right but I've never met anyone who also notices it.
Yeah, it's one of those things - once you see it, you see it. But same here, lots of friends/family don't even notice.
Where can I get a AR Police badge? I have so many tickets to issue...
Haha I'll have HQ get in contact with you!
i have a question by any chance do you fix laserdisc players ?
To an extent - I can handle basic maintenance and some fine tuning, but I don't have a full oscilloscope setup yet, and I haven't jumped into messing with power supplies yet.
I remember one of the first times I truly noticed aspect ratio was watching Chitty Chitty Bang Bang as a little kid and asking my mom why everyone in the opening credits was so tall and skinny.
I hope your house has sturdy floor joists - laserdiscs are *heavy* in large quantities like that shelf behind you.
For sure! I make sure everything's well anchored as well. Though I have since moved and all of my LDs are stored on the bottom level. I did a recent reorganization project too, and I really felt it after spending a weekend lugging all those stacks of discs around!
This is why I only take pics of the LD cover of whatever I'm watching. So the ARP have no evidence, damn it.
"You'll never catch me, coppers!!" :-)
I don't have any upscaling tech. I'm either lucky or lazy but I have a reasonably new Samsung with a Scart socket. And, though the Samsung has a 4:3 mode, it's separate Zoom mode seems to work without any stretching to the edges (that I can tell). Coincidently, whilst watching this, I was also running through Die Hard 3 (8858-85) and started checking the settings. Nothing comes additionally under the 4:3 setting which is probably why I have been guilty of watching some LDs while the system is still on Widescreen mode. But Zoom seems to know what it's doing without taffyfication.
On the point of black bars, if the film is engrossing, you don't notice them. I grew up watching stuff on green and B&W screens smaller than a smartphone; whats a few bars on a 50 inch TV???
Yeah, I got accustomed to letterboxing pretty quickly. I'd start to forget that they freaked people out until I'd have people over to watch Reservoir Dogs or something and they'd start losing their minds once they realized the "whole movie" had black bars! Haha
Good to hear that your Samsung has a legit zoom mode. Enjoy those discs!
16:52 ah, the Video Essentials LD demo clips.
Yup, the thrilling saga of ballerinas... and fruit vendors... and tough guys... and car shows. So much intrigue!
I have a Roku express plus that outputs through composite that I use on a 32 inch Sony Trinitron. It works well and looks pretty good. And I just started season 1 of the X Files on Hulu only to find that they letterboxed the image even through the composite out. For a show that was originally 4:3. Can't win these days.
Yeah, they claim they shot the first few seasons with enough wiggle room for eventual 16:9 cropping, but it would have been nice to have the original 4:3 versions. I noticed they still had to pan and scan a lot of the establishing shots, and they look pretty nasty on the HD versions.
And ironically enough the trinitron i own is the one you show @ 9:00
Nice! I love Trinitrons. I would have kept mine if I had the space for it.
Am with you. I also want to watch it in the right aspect ratio... btw, same accounts for youtube. I so hate it so many videos on youtube are wrong aspect ratio.
As far as laserdiscs, i've got that PAL+ sqeeuze LD about the insects. The Pal+ decoder also sends a widescreen signal of som sort over the scart cable to let the TV jump to 16:9. I've got an HDMI CRT (Philips 28PW9551) and that also luckily has 4:3 zoom and 16:9 zoom, zooming in increments. I've also fiddled with the TV in a service menu to get the geometry straight lines and still use the TV, as it is to me the finest TV for watching all movies from VHS to HD sources.
My tv usually stretches non anamorphic discs by default so no window boxing, the 2:35.1 just looks super thin and tiny. My tv does have a vertical zoom type feature and other ratio features, the vertical zoom basically just stretches it but it doesn't cut off any of the sides either so it does look anamorphic even though it's not. Even my blu ray player does stretch out non anamorphic discs to a 16:9 ratio but not all discs. Now my PS3 and 360 does show non anamorphic stuff windowboxed by default but my 360 probably has a better stretch option because it definitely looks a lot better with DVDs, not sure about the PS3 though..... haven't messed with that yet lol.
Yeah, it's funny how many different things you can fit into a signal chain that can adjust the image dimensions - in my main setup I can either use my DVDO processor or my projector depending on my mood. Though I usually just use the DVDO to do the job. I've still got an old fat PS3 in the mix too, but never messed around with using it to change ratios.
im still angry that my siblings made us watch full screen versions of movies. Even child me FUCKING KNEW that we weren't watching the movie right
Yeah, when I saw my first letterboxed video as a kid, I didn't even know what the black bars were about but I just sensed that it was legit!
1,16:1 is handled by my Sony TV with 14:9 zoom, works really great.
Great video bud.
Thanks man! Cheers!
I've bought another laserdisc player i went with pioneer dvl 91 now the question is i have a pioneer reciever that has RF AC3 my question is audio coaxel cable or should i run optical cable instead any advice is very appreciated
I can answer this question. You have to use a regular RCA cable from the RF port. If you use optical you will only get two channel PCM.
Yeah, for AC-3 you just need a coaxial RCA cable if your receiver is compatible with the RF signal straight from the player.
Though you may want to run an additional optical or coaxial cable from the 91's digital outputs to take advantage of PCM and DTS tracks. And of course also install a set of old school red/white stereo jacks if you ever want to listen to the analog tracks on older discs, or commentary tracks, etc.
what model # is that receiver?
pioneer vsx-59txi
Sam was reviewing this video again in anticipation of my player arriving. So you or the guys and gals know of a progressive scan solution to take my LD players rca yellow to play nice with widescreen tv without a bunch of hassle
Are there movies that are filmed in 4:3 that get widescreen releases by cropping top and bottom, kinda of like a pan and scan? i have a friend who usually only gets the widescreen versions, and i typically only get the 4:3 for use on an old CRT. Someone recently told me that there are films converted to widescreen and therefore aren't really true versions
Not on LD that I know of, but that is a potential problem with HD versions - especially with TV shows. Some will at least go back to the original negatives and capture a little more side imagery before cropping, but some will just crop the old 4:3 image to 16:9 and hope nobody notices. There are of course some particular movies with questionable aspect ratios (Evil Dead, plenty of Kubrick titles) that will continue to be a source of confusion. I just watch Evil Dead in 4:3 and call it a day though!
LD's aren't entirely innocent though - supposedly some letterboxed films are zoomed in a bit to increase detail, but the letterbox bars still create the illusion of correct aspect dimensions, so it's hard to tell unless you compare it to the original negative. Though I don't know how many films were actually 'zoomboxed' like that. The Alien CAV box comes up often as an example. Tim Lucas of Video Watchdog would also accuse other films like Big Trouble in Little China of being zoomboxed, but David Prior (who produced the letterboxed DVD) said the image was spot on.
@@Culturedog Ok, i was a bit confused on that as the widescreen versions seem to be more desired. Maybe they were referring to letterboxed versions and not 4:3. They mentioned something about T2 being slightly cropped for widescreen release..
@@Shanesshiit T2 and a lot of Cameron's films are super complicated, since the bulk of them are Super35 films with tons of extra imagery for the 4:3 versions. I'm probably going to have to do a video on his movies alone. But the 2.35:1 letterboxed version of T2 is the 'official' theatrical aspect ratio.
@@Culturedog Look forward to it when you make it :)
@@Shanesshiit Here's the short version, 35mm film is a highly standardized medium which is based around 4:3 when home video came to fruition some filmmakers realized that if they just shot their films without the widescreen mask or "open matte" when their films came to video release you wouldn't get any cropping because it's framed for cinema and TV. I think this is part of the reason why James Cameron never liked Anamorphic which gave better picture quality. Though I think as printing got better there was a shift over to Super 35 which is just extracting a 2:35:1 ratio out of 4:3 the same way they do it with 1:85:1.
ive came across a problem was wondering if you could help i have a dvl 90 everything was Woking great until last night when I put in a dvd it spins then ejects back out however when I put in a laserdisk it plays perfectly was wondering what causes this is this an easy fix any kind of help would be appreciated
I have a DVL-90 and the service manual, so I'll take a peek. Usually when the DVD section isn't working properly, it just sits there, so I'm intrigued about it attempting to spin and then ejecting.
ive also made a video of the problem if that will help out
also this is the weirdest thing plays laserdisc great so last night i put in a Metallica in justice for all cd it played all the way through
@@aubreylee1654 that model actually has two separate lasers/boards etc. - it's basically a DVD player and a LaserDisc player duct-taped together haha. So it sounds like your LD section is properly calibrated. I'd be interested to see which laser was playing the CD - the player usually defaults to using the DVD one, but I've gotten CDs to play with the LD laser.
Ok I think I've found the problem and wondering if it can be done the second laser after I put in the DVD laser moves up then backs down is there a way to reset the laser correctly ?