My brother decades ago at the age of 14 wanted to become an machinist , my father was so impressed with him for going to a company and volunteering to work on a Saturday cleaning up, if they would teach him the basics. 2 years later he left school and was offered an apprenticeship. The guy who taught him, wrote down all the maths he needed to know. He spent hours learning it. It helped him so much in other things like diy, decorating, etc. Now at 60 years old he is one of the ceo at that company and he married the daughter of the person who who taught him .
Great! I like to solve such problems in Cad but I always do the paper calculations too, just to keep the practice and confidence in doing it on paper up.
I do use the cad software as well. But sometimes it takes more time then just doing some simple calculations. To me this is almost the same as using digital measuring tools. If the batteries go dead you better remember to read a regular mic. Or a venier caliper. Believe me I have met people that can’t. We have become so dependent on the digital world.
As a guy who has to make the parts he designs: If I dimensional parts with a critical chamfer diameter, I draw the ball and dimension to it, then usually a setup guy can make straight depth adjustments. I've been using the 30xiis since I was in trade school(worn the bottons off many of them) I never knew about the store function, just goes to show you, we learn every day in this trade
Peter, I’m so pleased you’re still out there! You are a huge inspiration for me coming out of retirement and starting a new machine shop with my son. This will be his job while he is going engineering school. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. This video is particularly meaningful because I’m like your friend who inspired it. For 30 years I’ve used CAD/CAM as a crutch to write all of the trick NC code. My 18 year old son is the math whiz who knows exactly what you’re talking about. He and I are teaching each other now! Anyway, we really appreciate you! Take good care of yourself. If you find yourself in the Tampa Bay Area, I’d love to take you to lunch sometime.
Never understood TRIG in school when I had to start programming and old Bandit 3 milling machine in 1981 and old draftsman showed me the basics and gave me a trig log book and it all made sense then
its always the way things are explained. there is prob nobody stupid enough to not learn. i am trying to get this into my kids heads whenever they have trouble in school...but the teachers arent bright enough to even realize this...
@@bobdouglas262 you might find someone on youtube using it... :) ...you made it to this channel, you are pretty close already. YT is the biggest school ever! :)
I appreciate the video Peter. Even though I didn’t learn anything, this will be a great reference video to show coworkers in the future. I’ve explained these equations and formulas many times to different people, and many times they need to see it drawn out for them. So thanks a ton for this!
Thank you for your channel. I watch every video even though I have nothing to do with this world. I just enjoy your delivery, patience, attention to detail, and hard work.
You could help many begining machinists with trigonometry, your way of showing the way actual way and what keys to push really makes it a visual lesson, most machinists can't figure these equations, You should have been teacher,I've watched your TH-cam channel for year's your probably one of the best machinists I've seen I know nothing about cnc the parts you make are fantastic, I worked in the oil field doing tool joints API ring Groove, caseing adjusters, basically all down hole tools, I have made dies for the forging industry that were over 10 tons, would take months to finish but your parts,they are high Tec , Your the best machinists I've seen, and the best TH-cam channel for machining Thanks Gary in Colorado
One great thing about a more featured calculator is not the extra key stuff but just the bigger screen that the last couple problems can remain visible on.
That is true. I didn't show it in the video. On this simple calculator you can step backwards (With the arrow keys) to look at what you just did and make changes. I don't know how many. Someone commented 20 times but I have never done more than a few.
We had a tornado hit our part of town about 3 weeks before Beryl came thru that knocked down some power distribution towers in our area of Houston. This left us without power for around two weeks. At that time I purchased a generator and wired our breaker box to connect it to the house. Good thing I did!!! When Beryl passed right over us we again lost power but the generator kept most of the house going for another couple of days while it was restored. So no we didn't miss getting hit by Beryl. In fact some people, here just in the past few day got their power back. And only yesterday did we get internet service back at the shop. The storm pretty much went right over the city of Houston. There were over 1.2 million people without power.
Be careful if you use a smartphone calculator app! One day at work a guy about 15-feet (~4.6-m) from me was using his smartphone app to quickly determine or check a dimension. He remembered the sine/cosine values for angles like 30°, 45°, & 60°, and realized that he was getting the wrong answer. The guy next to him pulled out *his* (different brand & app) smartphone, did the same calculation, and got the "correct" answer. Then they both spent enough time to figure what was wrong with the first guy's app. It turned out that the app programmer goofed and forgot to convert between radians and degrees, giving the wrong answers for whichever trig function the first guy was trying to use! The first guy immediately deleted his calculator app, installed a different one, and then checked *it* to ensure that it produced the correct answers. In short, *always* check the calculator app(s) that you use on your smartphone to ensure that you don't make an _expensive_ mistake due to a bad app!
Many thanks for taking time to share your thoughts and methods on these important fundamentals. Always learn something new watching your video’s and appreciate your willingness to present (usually) easy to follow/understand information.
Many years ago I worked with a guy that would program contours with curves and tangent lines and such. He would figure the center line of the toolpath (we used a lot of reground end mills). One day I asked why he didn’t use cutter comp and he replied what are you talking about. Any way he was good at math.
I think most people get confused about trig in school because they teach it using algebra. As machinists we don't need the absolute presicion of algebra. Using a calculator to get an answer to four decimal places is usually sufficient. Also teachers often fail to explain why you're doing something, or fail to give practical examples like you do in this video. The simplest description I can come up with to tell someone what trig is, is to say that trig functions are the ratios of one side of a triangle to another. For any given angle the ratios change, and depending on what sides of the triangle you're using determines which trig function you use.
Before I retired I was working as support engineer in an assembly department where finished assemblies were often over 50 tonnes. When we had school visits if we were doing any lifts I explained, to the ones who were really interested, that calculating the loads in the lifting gear was an important use of trig. I also told them that for rough calculations a 30° 60° 90° triangle and a 45° 45° 90° triangle were good to remember the sides of in order to work out if you needed to be doing a full calculation because the rough ones were a bit close to the WLL limit.
Just a hobby guy and haven’t done much trig since school so this is a great refresher and nice real world worked example to show the application. Cheers for taking the time.
I love this! I do math for a living and taught high school math about 20 years ago. I also keep a TI-30X at the ready. I’ve long wanted to do a “math for makers” video series walking through this kind of trigonometry. So glad you did something along these lines!
Very helpful. I’ve been programming, and setting up multi axis dual spindle Swiss machines for 10 years and I always had a print to go off of. I’ve always used an excel program to trig angles, but this is very digestible and easy to understand. I’ve always found work arounds but this helps me understand clearly. Thank you.
Hey Peter! Oh yes, i enjoyed that video. Please pass and conserve the knowledge you have, there are people out there that suck it up like a vacuum. Even tho i only work with manual machines, i learn a lot from your videos. I have to admit, i have a sheet of paper over my desk hanging on the wall to remember which one to use. That hits even harder as I am an "Ingenieur" (german for engineer?) and have had to learn much math, but you have to use it to not forget (most of them calculations i just draw out on a paper and use tools and plug the number in or cad). I love the practical and "easy" way of yours of solving problems, whether machining parts or doing inspection, setting up your mazak or just talking about what you do. I would certainly be interested in these kinds of videos. Thanks Peter and have a great day, Greetings from Germany, Chris 😊
Hi Peter thanks for a great video, I last used this over 30 years ago so a nice refresher for me. A video on tooling as you say would be very valuable for our young ones in the machining world thanks Tel
I always enjoy a new upload but I’m eagerly looking forward to videos using your garage machines. Hopefully your plans haven’t changed and we can tag along with you enjoying the next phase of life.
This type of video is great to get new guys to understand these things. Just learning these things can make you a more efficient machinist. Thank you for helping others.
I loved it even though I was working on a good buzz, I was following along and even anticipating what you were gonna do next. That said, I believe a lot of machinists could not follow your trig. I'm long retired but when i was in I believe 7th grade and starting to learn trigonometry. the teacher gave us a word to remember the relationships of the proportions used to calculate the missing sides or angles of a right triangle. That word was SohCahToa. it represents sine=opposite (side) over the hypotenuse (division), Cosine = adjacent over hypotenuse and Tangent=opposite (side) over adjacent side. then later in 9th or 10th grade, a different teacher told us to forget that and concentrate on the relationships of the sides vs. the angles. Thankfully, I didn't listen to the 2nd teacher and burnt into memory SohCahToa. It allowed me later in life to use with confidence my trig math. In my many years of working as a machinist/Toolmaker, I ran across many "machinists" who struggled or got away with using charts or got it "close enough" to get a pass. In my later years, I had people who depended on me to get their math right so they could do the job. But I can't imagine that they felt good about their selves having to depend on someone else. But then again, some people are accepting of the fact that they are good enough to get by.
two which i always sort of enjoyed... continuous fractions for finding close alternative change gears. mostly used on helicals... rotary table drive ratios. slewing a table over whilst cutting helicals to counteract the fact you couldnt get a perfect ratio... not cutter rotation to match the helix angle, which you have to do regardless, but slewing the table over. you feed on the hypotenuse and CUT on the opposite/adjacent. similar to kicking a compound slide over for the 1:10 feed reduction...
shop math is good to know , but i really can't see how could we lose calculators , computers and such without using the whole cnc industry . I don't aspire becoming a toolmaker on manual machines . I had a colleauge , a quality control guy . That man knew everything there is to shop math , he would search for sin , cosin, tan, atan , values from books , also some other values frim other charts . he daily filled pages with simple math calculations to aid his work . He was fast and efficient , he had 30+ years of experience when i met him , and was also the head? of promotion at the technical university . I'm hovever a totally different generation , i find it difficult to use the manual techniques . I should be ashamed , cause i learnt all of this and much much more in school , but it just evaporated from my brain . Keep the videos coming if you have the time , even tough i'm not that interested, i still watched it , and learnt about the ball technique :) .
Great topic and great video...as always! Solving for a right triangle is also helpful for calculating the infeed on your compound when single point threading on a lathe.
I appreciate the video. I'm a hobby machinist and I use trig quite often in the shop. I can't imagine a professional who could get away with avoiding it.
I have the same calculator and my favorite feature on it is that it stores the previous 20 or so calculations you've done. I can back trace mistakes or check numbers I've used by hitting the up key. That ability has saved me a few times where traceability is concerned, or when you forget what you've already done
I absolutely loved this!! You are so good at explaining things in such simple and easy way to understand! I would love more videos like this! I also want to say I've watched a good majority of your videos and even if I'm not machining in the same style or machine as you, I always end up learning something! So, thank you for posting your experience and time with all of us! I really do appreciate it! :)
Interesting video of typical day to day calculations, thanks for the refresher. you are talking about a pi tape for measuring round stock , or large bearing journals to .001 Sometimes you can't use an outside micrometer but you can slip this around and get the measurements. Thanks again ed
The ball beating in the chamfer is really cool. But it looks like your example is for 90 degree chamfers only. You'd have to use half the bore width to create triangles from where the chamfer and bore meet, one up to the sphere center and one down to the bottom tip of the large triangle and then add the vertical segments together to get that critical dimension. But definitely a cool video.
The example I showed in this video was an 82 degree c-sink. This method will work for any angle and a ball of the proper diameter to contact on those angles.
@@EdgePrecision OK but a right triangle from the circle center to circle perimeter with the 90 on the perimeter the other 2 angles can only noth be 45 degrees
@@processagent5095 It depends on where the point of the counter sink ends. I think you need to draw some sketches with different angles to see. The line going to the center of the sphere will always be perpendicular to the sphere but the point of the c-sink will change in depth with different angles. The sphere may also need to change in diameter to be able to intersect the straight sides of the c-sinks cone. Draw the sketches with any angle and then draw a line perpendicular to side of the cone to the center of the sphere on both sides. You will see the two lines don’t have to be at 90 degrees to each other. Of course if there is a hole in the center you will have to change the sphere’s diameter to make it contact the sides of the cone.
The beauty of trig. Many moons ago I went to college for electronics engineering. So when I was learning trigonometry I was looking at sine waves on an oscilloscope, manipulating the wave in real time with the circuits. Trig pretty much clicked with everybody. Do I need to say I didn't end up designing circuit boards, machining is where it's at for me. Maybe a follow up vid around cosine error .. idk. Great vid hope it clicks for people who are struggling.
I still had my original TI-30 from 1976 when I started hand coding CNC programs in the early 80s. I wrote so many programs on a legal pad. With a small drafting board and that TI-30 and the Great International Math on Keys book that came with it. I would have loved a video like this, back then. But to be honest, it was kinda fun figuring it all out.
16 years of machining (same machine as you, just newer, IG I500) but since I've known Solidworks for as many years as I have been machining I haven't really had the need to calculate simple maths. Just the fact that I can visually see the 'numbers' I want gives me a peace of mind.
Peter, I always appreciate your videos. I am always looking to pick up on a tip to help me do my job better and I could definitely use better math skills, I hope you find the time to do a couple more math related videos. Thank you.
Ya I found this interesting Peter. I'm a manual machinest and dro s and dial indicators and I degree at 1 foot table in machinery handbook , and such the cylinder calculation for volume to calculate weight all good stuff for a apprentice to know you can show em the math they really needed to know , since your gonna use it to make life easy not just pass a test probly more interesting that way I'd start em with the cylinder volume to show em how simple is and pi and Dia are in there next SFPM that star grinder is probly a PhD in math ha ha love it Peter thanks
Thank you for this video. I just recently had to do a lot of trig learning to develop probing cycles. This is very helpful and I will use what I have learned in the cycles I have to develop moving forward.
Trigonometry, Analytic geometry, Linear algebra - what I use. Very often I create part programs for 3axis HBM without help of our programmers. Calculating hole and other features coordinates, path extensions and a lot of different stuff. Had to write transformed coordinates (after table rotation) calculation program for our machine.
I think the simplist way to do this without any errors is to draw the problem in AutoCad or Inventor or other CAD package and do the measuremant. Using a calculator means that you have to be careful of "rounding" errors. For fine accurate work that is important. Cheers
Depth of threads internal/external, I made tensile test pieces with threads at each end and gauge via in the middle,often the length of the radius was calculated using Pythagoras the old hands couldn't work it out so came and asked me, I never used a computer program was always old school
Hard to believe but your only the 2nd person i've ever seen who know's how to solve the right angles. It's not that solving the right triangles is hard, it's finding the angles to solve. That's what always amazed me about my programmer I worked with back in the mid 90s. To my knowledge he still works in the Houston Area at a place called Grant/Prideco.
Yes you are correct. For the purpose of this video I thought it would be easer to understand that the two remaining corners of the right triangle are 90 degrees. So subtracting the known angle from 90 would give you the opposite one.
*Summary* This video discusses the essential math skills a machinist should know, focusing on trigonometry and circle calculations. *Circle Calculations:* * *(**3:38**)* *Circumference:* Diameter * Pi * Used for calculating tool surface footage and determining RPM. * *(**3:52**)* *Area:* Radius² * Pi * Used for calculating the volume and weight of round bar stock. *Right Triangle Calculations (Trigonometry):* * *(**8:31**)* Understanding the relationship between sides and angles in a right triangle. * *(**9:00**)* Using sine, cosine, and tangent functions to calculate unknown side lengths and angles. * *(**10:09**)* The video emphasizes the usefulness of a scientific calculator for these calculations. *Practical Example:* * *(**18:31**)* The video demonstrates how to calculate the depth of a countersink using a ball bearing and trigonometry. This technique is valuable for accurately measuring countersinks. *Key Takeaways:* * Machinists can perform most calculations with a basic understanding of circles and right triangles. * A scientific calculator simplifies these calculations. * Even with modern CAD/CAM software, a solid understanding of these math concepts is crucial for problem-solving and efficiency in the machine shop. i used gemini 1.5 pro
Hi Peter, At 11:30 It might have helped people understand if you had shown the Pythagorean theorem with regard to calculating an angle, ie: SOH, CAH, TOA.
Yes as I said in the video there are other ways. And that is an easier calculation. I was just showing the bases for what that was using the circumference of a circle fore.
If you're starting from CAD then getting dimensions from the model is convenient, but otherwise knowing how to fend for yourself is wise. For Android at least I'll vouch for Realcalc; it has good features and no fluff.
I think that due to how you input the parameters while making programs, math isn't necessary most of the time, which makes you lose that knowledge. CAM simplifies a lot, and punching at the machine these days only requires you to follow the drawing (mostly) and copy and adjust the tool parameters set by the manufacturer. And for the standard CNC operator at the big shops most of the stuff is laid out for you in the operation sheet, so you just follow without needing to think. So it's hard to gain knowledge that lets you do the hard parts that will set you apart. Starting out like that will make sure that you *don't* know these basic things that you absolutely needed to know back in the day.
So complicated the imperial measuring system… I use both because my measuring devices are in imperial scale. But i have to look for how many inches are in a mile, or how much is an ounce ( is it US or UK ounce?) is it volume or weight. I wish I had 6 fingers in each hand. Or better yet I wish the french, when they did their revolution, imposed the base 12 number system instead of the 10 number system, it has many more factor than the later. Pi would still be the ratio of the circumference by the diameter. Anyway, I hear you. I don’t blame you for the rant.
Could you do a hands on example of measuring the countersink using that ball bearing? Do you use a height gage or something like a depth mic to measure?
@@joebauer3874 There are a number of ways to measure this. It sort of has to do with how much room you have on the part and how large the c-sink and ball are. My first pick is to use a uni mic with the anvil and clamp removed and just measure the height direct. Second to use a block of known height (a 1,2,3 block) measure with a depth mic and subtract that away from the height of the block. Third use a height gauge. Or use a dial indicator in the Z axis sweep the top of the ball and zero the indicator and your Z reading. Then move down to zero on the face with the indicator and read the movement on the Z display/readout. Those are a few ways to make that measurement. Hope that helps. Thanks!
Yes most defiantly need that level of math really but you would be surprised about how many people do not have a basic level of math it makes me wonder what is being taught in school these days.
Interesting i still don't know trigonometry so instead I've learned autocad and that's how i made it through...i was the guy the go to when they need it help with trig and i was a welder..
Ok smart guy. If you put a cone in a v-block and sweep over the top of it with a mill using the mill as a 'CMM', how do you find the included angle of the cone? You have x position and height (z) over the top of the cone.
Uhhhh ok. I think my setup is bad. At any given x location the cone is in contact with with the v-block in two points and in contact with the indicator at one point. Three points do define a circle uniquely but they do not define an oval uniquely. A conic section at an angle other than 90 is an ellipse. You need four points not three. Boy I've been thinking about that for a while! Whew
My brother decades ago at the age of 14 wanted to become an machinist , my father was so impressed with him for going to a company and volunteering to work on a Saturday cleaning up, if they would teach him the basics. 2 years later he left school and was offered an apprenticeship. The guy who taught him, wrote down all the maths he needed to know. He spent hours learning it. It helped him so much in other things like diy, decorating, etc. Now at 60 years old he is one of the ceo at that company and he married the daughter of the person who who taught him .
his name slick rick ?
Great!
I like to solve such problems in Cad but I always do the paper calculations too, just to keep the practice and confidence in doing it on paper up.
I do use the cad software as well. But sometimes it takes more time then just doing some simple calculations. To me this is almost the same as using digital measuring tools. If the batteries go dead you better remember to read a regular mic. Or a venier caliper. Believe me I have met people that can’t. We have become so dependent on the digital world.
As a guy who has to make the parts he designs:
If I dimensional parts with a critical chamfer diameter, I draw the ball and dimension to it, then usually a setup guy can make straight depth adjustments.
I've been using the 30xiis since I was in trade school(worn the bottons off many of them)
I never knew about the store function, just goes to show you, we learn every day in this trade
Peter, I’m so pleased you’re still out there! You are a huge inspiration for me coming out of retirement and starting a new machine shop with my son. This will be his job while he is going engineering school.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. This video is particularly meaningful because I’m like your friend who inspired it. For 30 years I’ve used CAD/CAM as a crutch to write all of the trick NC code. My 18 year old son is the math whiz who knows exactly what you’re talking about. He and I are teaching each other now!
Anyway, we really appreciate you! Take good care of yourself. If you find yourself in the Tampa Bay Area, I’d love to take you to lunch sometime.
Never understood TRIG in school when I had to start programming and old Bandit 3 milling machine in 1981 and old draftsman showed me the basics and gave me a trig log book and it all made sense then
Do you recall the title of the book?
its always the way things are explained. there is prob nobody stupid enough to not learn. i am trying to get this into my kids heads whenever they have trouble in school...but the teachers arent bright enough to even realize this...
@@bobdouglas262 There is a small book called Zeus precision which has trigonometry formulas.
@@bobdouglas262 Zeus precision is a good little book.
@@bobdouglas262 you might find someone on youtube using it... :) ...you made it to this channel, you are pretty close already.
YT is the biggest school ever! :)
I appreciate the video Peter. Even though I didn’t learn anything, this will be a great reference video to show coworkers in the future. I’ve explained these equations and formulas many times to different people, and many times they need to see it drawn out for them. So thanks a ton for this!
Thank you for your channel. I watch every video even though I have nothing to do with this world. I just enjoy your delivery, patience, attention to detail, and hard work.
You could help many begining machinists with trigonometry, your way of showing the way actual way and what keys to push really makes it a visual lesson, most machinists can't figure these equations,
You should have been teacher,I've watched your TH-cam channel for year's your probably one of the best machinists I've seen I know nothing about cnc the parts you make are fantastic, I worked in the oil field doing tool joints API ring Groove, caseing adjusters, basically all down hole tools, I have made dies for the forging industry that were over 10 tons, would take months to finish but your parts,they are high Tec ,
Your the best machinists I've seen, and the best TH-cam channel for machining
Thanks Gary in Colorado
One great thing about a more featured calculator is not the extra key stuff but just the bigger screen that the last couple problems can remain visible on.
That is true. I didn't show it in the video. On this simple calculator you can step backwards (With the arrow keys) to look at what you just did and make changes. I don't know how many. Someone commented 20 times but I have never done more than a few.
Nice to have a refresher coarse. Brings back memory from many many years ago. Glad to see that Beryl didn't hit you.
We had a tornado hit our part of town about 3 weeks before Beryl came thru that knocked down some power distribution towers in our area of Houston. This left us without power for around two weeks. At that time I purchased a generator and wired our breaker box to connect it to the house. Good thing I did!!! When Beryl passed right over us we again lost power but the generator kept most of the house going for another couple of days while it was restored. So no we didn't miss getting hit by Beryl. In fact some people, here just in the past few day got their power back. And only yesterday did we get internet service back at the shop. The storm pretty much went right over the city of Houston. There were over 1.2 million people without power.
This basic math info is so important that I strongly encourage you to keep it coming
This a necessity to know. Thank you for simplifying it for us
Be careful if you use a smartphone calculator app! One day at work a guy about 15-feet (~4.6-m) from me was using his smartphone app to quickly determine or check a dimension. He remembered the sine/cosine values for angles like 30°, 45°, & 60°, and realized that he was getting the wrong answer. The guy next to him pulled out *his* (different brand & app) smartphone, did the same calculation, and got the "correct" answer. Then they both spent enough time to figure what was wrong with the first guy's app. It turned out that the app programmer goofed and forgot to convert between radians and degrees, giving the wrong answers for whichever trig function the first guy was trying to use! The first guy immediately deleted his calculator app, installed a different one, and then checked *it* to ensure that it produced the correct answers.
In short, *always* check the calculator app(s) that you use on your smartphone to ensure that you don't make an _expensive_ mistake due to a bad app!
Many thanks for taking time to share your thoughts and methods on these important fundamentals. Always learn something new watching your video’s and appreciate your willingness to present (usually) easy to follow/understand information.
Many years ago I worked with a guy that would program contours with curves and tangent lines and such. He would figure the center line of the toolpath (we used a lot of reground end mills). One day I asked why he didn’t use cutter comp and he replied what are you talking about.
Any way he was good at math.
There is a way to use cutter comp with centerline tool path as well. Your just using smaller values usually in the negative direction.
Poor guy...
I think most people get confused about trig in school because they teach it using algebra. As machinists we don't need the absolute presicion of algebra. Using a calculator to get an answer to four decimal places is usually sufficient.
Also teachers often fail to explain why you're doing something, or fail to give practical examples like you do in this video.
The simplest description I can come up with to tell someone what trig is, is to say that trig functions are the ratios of one side of a triangle to another. For any given angle the ratios change, and depending on what sides of the triangle you're using determines which trig function you use.
Before I retired I was working as support engineer in an assembly department where finished assemblies were often over 50 tonnes. When we had school visits if we were doing any lifts I explained, to the ones who were really interested, that calculating the loads in the lifting gear was an important use of trig. I also told them that for rough calculations a 30° 60° 90° triangle and a 45° 45° 90° triangle were good to remember the sides of in order to work out if you needed to be doing a full calculation because the rough ones were a bit close to the WLL limit.
Just a hobby guy and haven’t done much trig since school so this is a great refresher and nice real world worked example to show the application. Cheers for taking the time.
I love this! I do math for a living and taught high school math about 20 years ago. I also keep a TI-30X at the ready. I’ve long wanted to do a “math for makers” video series walking through this kind of trigonometry. So glad you did something along these lines!
Very helpful. I’ve been programming, and setting up multi axis dual spindle Swiss machines for 10 years and I always had a print to go off of. I’ve always used an excel program to trig angles, but this is very digestible and easy to understand. I’ve always found work arounds but this helps me understand clearly. Thank you.
It’s surprising how many people don’t know this stuff off the top of their head
I would probably draw it out in SolidWorks then ask the pooter..
SW and the others CAD softwares decreases your brain... think about it (if you can...)
Hey Peter! Oh yes, i enjoyed that video. Please pass and conserve the knowledge you have, there are people out there that suck it up like a vacuum.
Even tho i only work with manual machines, i learn a lot from your videos. I have to admit, i have a sheet of paper over my desk hanging on the wall to remember which one to use. That hits even harder as I am an "Ingenieur" (german for engineer?) and have had to learn much math, but you have to use it to not forget (most of them calculations i just draw out on a paper and use tools and plug the number in or cad). I love the practical and "easy" way of yours of solving problems, whether machining parts or doing inspection, setting up your mazak or just talking about what you do.
I would certainly be interested in these kinds of videos. Thanks Peter and have a great day, Greetings from Germany, Chris 😊
You make the best videos! Thank you for sharing!
Hi Peter thanks for a great video, I last used this over 30 years ago so a nice refresher for me. A video on tooling as you say would be very valuable for our young ones in the machining world thanks Tel
I always enjoy a new upload but I’m eagerly looking forward to videos using your garage machines.
Hopefully your plans haven’t changed and we can tag along with you enjoying the next phase of life.
This type of video is great to get new guys to understand these things. Just learning these things can make you a more efficient machinist. Thank you for helping others.
I loved it even though I was working on a good buzz, I was following along and even anticipating what you were gonna do next. That said, I believe a lot of machinists could not follow your trig. I'm long retired but when i was in I believe 7th grade and starting to learn trigonometry. the teacher gave us a word to remember the relationships of the proportions used to calculate the missing sides or angles of a right triangle. That word was SohCahToa. it represents sine=opposite (side) over the hypotenuse (division), Cosine = adjacent over hypotenuse and Tangent=opposite (side) over adjacent side. then later in 9th or 10th grade, a different teacher told us to forget that and concentrate on the relationships of the sides vs. the angles. Thankfully, I didn't listen to the 2nd teacher and burnt into memory SohCahToa. It allowed me later in life to use with confidence my trig math. In my many years of working as a machinist/Toolmaker, I ran across many "machinists" who struggled or got away with using charts or got it "close enough" to get a pass. In my later years, I had people who depended on me to get their math right so they could do the job. But I can't imagine that they felt good about their selves having to depend on someone else. But then again, some people are accepting of the fact that they are good enough to get by.
two which i always sort of enjoyed...
continuous fractions for finding close alternative change gears. mostly used on helicals... rotary table drive ratios.
slewing a table over whilst cutting helicals to counteract the fact you couldnt get a perfect ratio... not cutter rotation to match the helix angle, which you have to do regardless, but slewing the table over. you feed on the hypotenuse and CUT on the opposite/adjacent. similar to kicking a compound slide over for the 1:10 feed reduction...
shop math is good to know , but i really can't see how could we lose calculators , computers and such without using the whole cnc industry .
I don't aspire becoming a toolmaker on manual machines . I had a colleauge , a quality control guy . That man knew everything there is to shop math , he would search for sin , cosin, tan, atan , values from books , also some other values frim other charts . he daily filled pages with simple math calculations to aid his work . He was fast and efficient , he had 30+ years of experience when i met him , and was also the head? of promotion at the technical university .
I'm hovever a totally different generation , i find it difficult to use the manual techniques . I should be ashamed , cause i learnt all of this and much much more in school , but it just evaporated from my brain .
Keep the videos coming if you have the time , even tough i'm not that interested, i still watched it , and learnt about the ball technique :) .
Great topic and great video...as always!
Solving for a right triangle is also helpful for calculating the infeed on your compound when single point threading on a lathe.
I appreciate the video. I'm a hobby machinist and I use trig quite often in the shop.
I can't imagine a professional who could get away with avoiding it.
I have the same calculator and my favorite feature on it is that it stores the previous 20 or so calculations you've done. I can back trace mistakes or check numbers I've used by hitting the up key.
That ability has saved me a few times where traceability is concerned, or when you forget what you've already done
This video is extremely useful, its always a treat when a guy can just sitdown and learn from a long term tradesman and find a new way to look at it
I absolutely loved this!! You are so good at explaining things in such simple and easy way to understand! I would love more videos like this!
I also want to say I've watched a good majority of your videos and even if I'm not machining in the same style or machine as you, I always end up learning something! So, thank you for posting your experience and time with all of us! I really do appreciate it! :)
Interesting video of typical day to day calculations, thanks for the refresher. you are talking about a pi tape for measuring round stock , or large bearing journals to .001 Sometimes you can't use an outside micrometer but you can slip this around and get the measurements. Thanks again ed
The ball beating in the chamfer is really cool. But it looks like your example is for 90 degree chamfers only. You'd have to use half the bore width to create triangles from where the chamfer and bore meet, one up to the sphere center and one down to the bottom tip of the large triangle and then add the vertical segments together to get that critical dimension. But definitely a cool video.
The example I showed in this video was an 82 degree c-sink. This method will work for any angle and a ball of the proper diameter to contact on those angles.
@@EdgePrecision OK but a right triangle from the circle center to circle perimeter with the 90 on the perimeter the other 2 angles can only noth be 45 degrees
@@processagent5095 It depends on where the point of the counter sink ends. I think you need to draw some sketches with different angles to see. The line going to the center of the sphere will always be perpendicular to the sphere but the point of the c-sink will change in depth with different angles. The sphere may also need to change in diameter to be able to intersect the straight sides of the c-sinks cone. Draw the sketches with any angle and then draw a line perpendicular to side of the cone to the center of the sphere on both sides. You will see the two lines don’t have to be at 90 degrees to each other. Of course if there is a hole in the center you will have to change the sphere’s diameter to make it contact the sides of the cone.
@@EdgePrecision I see it now. The 90 of the smaller triangle doesn't have to be coincident with the outside of the circle.
Well no because if it isn't coincident with the circle then you don't know the length of the side which is the rddius.
The beauty of trig. Many moons ago I went to college for electronics engineering. So when I was learning trigonometry I was looking at sine waves on an oscilloscope, manipulating the wave in real time with the circuits. Trig pretty much clicked with everybody.
Do I need to say I didn't end up designing circuit boards, machining is where it's at for me.
Maybe a follow up vid around cosine error .. idk. Great vid hope it clicks for people who are struggling.
I still had my original TI-30 from 1976 when I started hand coding CNC programs in the early 80s. I wrote so many programs on a legal pad. With a small drafting board and that TI-30 and the Great International Math on Keys book that came with it. I would have loved a video like this, back then. But to be honest, it was kinda fun figuring it all out.
16 years of machining (same machine as you, just newer, IG I500) but since I've known Solidworks for as many years as I have been machining I haven't really had the need to calculate simple maths. Just the fact that I can visually see the 'numbers' I want gives me a peace of mind.
Peter, I always appreciate your videos. I am always looking to pick up on a tip to help me do my job better and I could definitely use better math skills, I hope you find the time to do a couple more math related videos. Thank you.
Ya I found this interesting Peter. I'm a manual machinest and dro s and dial indicators and I degree at 1 foot table in machinery handbook , and such the cylinder calculation for volume to calculate weight all good stuff for a apprentice to know you can show em the math they really needed to know , since your gonna use it to make life easy not just pass a test probly more interesting that way I'd start em with the cylinder volume to show em how simple is and pi and Dia are in there next SFPM that star grinder is probly a PhD in math ha ha love it Peter thanks
Thanks for the refresher. Last time, I did something like this: I was back in school for my machinist degree
Thank you for this video. I just recently had to do a lot of trig learning to develop probing cycles. This is very helpful and I will use what I have learned in the cycles I have to develop moving forward.
Great video. I’ll make my grandson watch this.
Very good information. Thank you. Even with cadd it’s good to know the fundamentals, the drawings are only as good as the drafter.
Pi tape! I use it for some larger brazed assemblies has a scale that reads diameter to 3 decimal inch and is made for OD or ID
Got exactly the same calculator, got me through school and university. You don't need more ;))
Thanks Peter. Useful information. Trig is a powerful tool.
Nice trick! I think you can make a small series of video with this subject. It will be usefull for begineer or oldest machinist !
I made up spreadsheets for ball sizes etc, saves the long hand faff
Trigonometry, Analytic geometry, Linear algebra - what I use. Very often I create part programs for 3axis HBM without help of our programmers. Calculating hole and other features coordinates, path extensions and a lot of different stuff. Had to write transformed coordinates (after table rotation) calculation program for our machine.
I think the simplist way to do this without any errors is to draw the problem in AutoCad or Inventor or other CAD package and do the measuremant. Using a calculator means that you have to be careful of "rounding" errors. For fine accurate work that is important. Cheers
Depth of threads internal/external, I made tensile test pieces with threads at each end and gauge via in the middle,often the length of the radius was calculated using Pythagoras the old hands couldn't work it out so came and asked me, I never used a computer program was always old school
Hard to believe but your only the 2nd person i've ever seen who know's how to solve the right angles. It's not that solving the right triangles is hard, it's finding the angles to solve. That's what always amazed me about my programmer I worked with back in the mid 90s. To my knowledge he still works in the Houston Area at a place called Grant/Prideco.
Great video! On every triangle the angles add up to 180 degrees, not just on a right triangle.
Yes you are correct. For the purpose of this video I thought it would be easer to understand that the two remaining corners of the right triangle are 90 degrees. So subtracting the known angle from 90 would give you the opposite one.
*Summary*
This video discusses the essential math skills a machinist should know, focusing on trigonometry and circle calculations.
*Circle Calculations:*
* *(**3:38**)* *Circumference:* Diameter * Pi
* Used for calculating tool surface footage and determining RPM.
* *(**3:52**)* *Area:* Radius² * Pi
* Used for calculating the volume and weight of round bar stock.
*Right Triangle Calculations (Trigonometry):*
* *(**8:31**)* Understanding the relationship between sides and angles in a right triangle.
* *(**9:00**)* Using sine, cosine, and tangent functions to calculate unknown side lengths and angles.
* *(**10:09**)* The video emphasizes the usefulness of a scientific calculator for these calculations.
*Practical Example:*
* *(**18:31**)* The video demonstrates how to calculate the depth of a countersink using a ball bearing and trigonometry. This technique is valuable for accurately measuring countersinks.
*Key Takeaways:*
* Machinists can perform most calculations with a basic understanding of circles and right triangles.
* A scientific calculator simplifies these calculations.
* Even with modern CAD/CAM software, a solid understanding of these math concepts is crucial for problem-solving and efficiency in the machine shop.
i used gemini 1.5 pro
glad to see you take the time to post another excellent video
Hi Peter, At 11:30 It might have helped people understand if you had shown the Pythagorean theorem with regard to calculating an angle, ie: SOH, CAH, TOA.
Measuring related video would be super iinteresting to watch!
You sir have done me a great honor and for that I thank you.
I found it interesting the way you dd the countersink 28:59
This information is a great help👍
I've always preferred the (SFM X 3.82) / (Cutter Dia) approach for calculating RPM
Yes as I said in the video there are other ways. And that is an easier calculation. I was just showing the bases for what that was using the circumference of a circle fore.
@@EdgePrecision yeah I was more replying just so anyone in the comments would know the formula, figured you already knew it
If you're starting from CAD then getting dimensions from the model is convenient, but otherwise knowing how to fend for yourself is wise.
For Android at least I'll vouch for Realcalc; it has good features and no fluff.
Great information, thanks for sharing!
Enjoyed this ! Any tips on working out tangent points lol
I would like to know more please, and how to apply it. I am a back yard amature novice.
I think that due to how you input the parameters while making programs, math isn't necessary most of the time, which makes you lose that knowledge. CAM simplifies a lot, and punching at the machine these days only requires you to follow the drawing (mostly) and copy and adjust the tool parameters set by the manufacturer.
And for the standard CNC operator at the big shops most of the stuff is laid out for you in the operation sheet, so you just follow without needing to think. So it's hard to gain knowledge that lets you do the hard parts that will set you apart.
Starting out like that will make sure that you *don't* know these basic things that you absolutely needed to know back in the day.
Shop maths is very very underrated.
So complicated the imperial measuring system…
I use both because my measuring devices are in imperial scale. But i have to look for how many inches are in a mile, or how much is an ounce ( is it US or UK ounce?) is it volume or weight.
I wish I had 6 fingers in each hand. Or better yet I wish the french, when they did their revolution, imposed the base 12 number system instead of the 10 number system, it has many more factor than the later. Pi would still be the ratio of the circumference by the diameter.
Anyway, I hear you. I don’t blame you for the rant.
Could you do a hands on example of measuring the countersink using that ball bearing? Do you use a height gage or something like a depth mic to measure?
@@joebauer3874 There are a number of ways to measure this. It sort of has to do with how much room you have on the part and how large the c-sink and ball are. My first pick is to use a uni mic with the anvil and clamp removed and just measure the height direct. Second to use a block of known height (a 1,2,3 block) measure with a depth mic and subtract that away from the height of the block. Third use a height gauge. Or use a dial indicator in the Z axis sweep the top of the ball and zero the indicator and your Z reading. Then move down to zero on the face with the indicator and read the movement on the Z display/readout. Those are a few ways to make that measurement. Hope that helps. Thanks!
love the teaching videos like this!!!!!!
I’m a retired Machinist and that’s the calculator I used .
I have a lot more respect for pro machinists now that I dabble in it as a hobby. I had no idea they did so much math.
The easiest way to describe it is analytical geometry.
Yes most defiantly need that level of math really but you would be surprised about how many people do not have a basic level of math it makes me wonder what is being taught in school these days.
After long time
I'm always waiting for your vedio
👍👌
That’s helpful. Thank you.
Interesting i still don't know trigonometry so instead I've learned autocad and that's how i made it through...i was the guy the go to when they need it help with trig and i was a welder..
Great video.
Great job
I never knew my calculator app did that! 🧠 💥
Same.. I had to try it.. and sure enough, it does
Oscar Had A Heap Of Apples
I wonder if yellow notepad paper became popular because it hides nicotine stains better.
Ok smart guy.
If you put a cone in a v-block and sweep over the top of it with a mill using the mill as a 'CMM', how do you find the included angle of the cone?
You have x position and height (z) over the top of the cone.
Uhhhh ok.
I think my setup is bad. At any given x location the cone is in contact with with the v-block in two points and in contact with the indicator at one point. Three points do define a circle uniquely but they do not define an oval uniquely. A conic section at an angle other than 90 is an ellipse. You need four points not three.
Boy I've been thinking about that for a while! Whew
If I had put a roller in there to measure the location of the Vee then I could have used that to constrain things...
I'm even more confused
Im scared this video is about me ! xD
.
Its not but i resonate with that guy on math.
It’s like the difference between Texas Instruments and Hewlett-Packard calculators….TI wins
У меня для этого эскиз в солиде😢
Wofür brauchen wir die Wohnungen ?
You lost me there, half way...