Chaos Theory in Poker | Testing New Multi-Way Solver Simple 3-Way
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ต.ค. 2024
- Solver analysis of a hand from one of solveforwhy's poker out loud videos utilizing a new multiway solver, Simple 3-Way.
Poker Out Loud Video: • POKER OUT LOUD - TOP 1...
Solve For Why Website: solveforwhyaca...
Simple 3-Way Solver 10% off: simplepoker.co...
PREFLOP: rangeconverter... (use EQUILIBRIUMPF for 20% off on postflop solutions and ISITGTO for 10% off preflop solutions)
I appreciate your dissection of this spot as well as the context provided. Great job as always demonstrating a rational dissection of an irrational situation. Most fail to see how often, particularly at depths greater than 300bb, these out of line situations present live. Win rates are what they are because the environment tends to be deep, impatient, spewy, and occasionally drunk. Obviously we didn't set out to disobey theory at all costs, but we did want to emulate a live "try hard" environment as best we could. Appreciate you making the effort to be a fair observer, of both, the good and bad elements of the product.
Thanks for the high-quality, innovative content! Seems that no one else is really putting out material like this so it should be commended. And I agree that analyzing these types of spots is valuable and practical since players in the real world are operating far from perfectly.
Emulate a live "try hard" game in the real world... But these are a bunch of pro's and they are trying to use poker logic/strategy in their commentary. This is so lazy and FOS it's painful.
Just say you are lowering the poker quality to get more people to watch. It's so obvious you just look stupid trying to hide it.
That is still one of my favorite hands in the entire S4Y catalog. They were all playing extremely loose the entire night, and it made for some interesting spots and thought processes.
Nick: "I'm going to exploit Berkey by floating with a ~0 EV hand"
Berkey: *Immediately assigns a float range way wider than GTO to Nick*
Sick exploits. Exploiting himself
That's actually points where live players got. They aren't master at GTOs but they are really good at catching spots where overbluff, overfloats or vice versa.
There sure is some strong cosmic connection with the universe in this hand
I love this hand.. Clearly highlights the danger in shifting your strategy so far away from optimal.
Buttons read that the flop donk and flop raise were light were accurate, but he failed to predict that his opponent would go one level further and figured he would cold call light. You can't just predict your opponents actions, you have to also predict their reactions!
This is the clearest case I've seen of someone wanting to do something for emotional reasons, and justifying the irrational behaviour with shotty reasoning.
Agreed
Exactly, I love how it shows how some professionals are just ahead of others. Sending this to my friend who is new to poker who keeps trying to play this widely chaotic psychological game rather than playing fundamental sound
What was emotional about this hand?
This is like watching a trainwreck in slow motion haha so good
Edit: a flaming exploding trainwreck
sorry but I just can't take this hand seriously
Seriously. This is bad as bad can get. Their strategy is ego driven bs. They try to convince themselves that there is reason to their madness.
Nick is not a good player. He is one of those players who has been unmasked by this setup.
This was just so bad lol
This is the best poker video I've ever seen, out of 1000s. Putting the solver on top of Poker Out Loud is just genius. More please
sorry, I went to the school of good opening hands usually lead to good river hands,and bad openers usually lead to bad finishing hands. I guess I'm dumb, but I usually have winning sessions.
This is like getting drunk and driving your car into a tree and then come up with this articulate story of why you did it ! Either that or they all planned this to make Berkey their (Patriarch) look absolutely brilliant LOL
I was thinking the same thing. Make some unreasonable plays with articulated thought processes. Then make Matt look like a beast to hopefully get people to buy into his program or what ever he is selling.
After watching Matt with Joey, and Doug Polk i had and have a deep level of respect. However watching this video i feel like it is a dishonest representation of how people really play.
I do how ever acknowledge that in some games i have watched people will do silly things.
In the games i watch and play people are really not thinking this deep.
I've never played high stakes cash. And if they do think this high i don't think i want too lol.
They can’t see each others cards. Hence their is plenty of room for gross mistakes when playing very aggressively
I watched a bit of those poker out loud vids and i legit thought it was a comedy/trolling
Then i saw the comments and realised they were serious.
Same haha
This was an amazing breakdown of GTO vs Exploitative thinking and some of the pros and cons. Excellent video.
*"Crotch Theory > Chaos Theory"* -Mike Postle
I wouldn’t trust that the guy with the earbuds couldn’t hear everyone.
@Joseph Lauren that would be worse cause he's literally starring them in the face while they're talking reading they're lips.. i personally think he's cheating...
Or is this a new way for poker pros to encourage fellow poker players to play loosey goosey again because they know making consistent profit in cash has become very difficult
Berkey read his opponent on an inhuman level. He called it almost as if he was looking at his opponent's hole cards. That was some seriously sick poker.
U'r the man. It doesnt matter what hand you analyze, you make sense of it even if its an insane one, and i love that. Good job and happy 2020.!
Just found this. Liked and subscribed....the fact that these have so few views proves how alive poker still is. Lol Really good content. One thing... when I watch on TH-cam on my TV the volume goes way up during the "hand clips" and down during your analysis. Makes me have to keep turning volume up and down.
Idk maybe it's just me but things like that really help viewers enjoy the full length on content.
Now hurry and make more because I am working my way through them quick. 🏆👍♥️♣️♦️♠️
I wanted to tell you that my volume was consistent for me. I'm thinking it is your TV.
Mine does however go up during commercials and goes down during some shows.
I love hearing long detailed explanations for punting your stack with a naked gutshot.
Apparently the solver is not hood at all 🤣 Christian is so bad
i lol'ed
Gold
looks like christian can hear everyone too w/ those headphones
They all suck
Thank you for analyzing this S4Y video, I watched their "Poker Out Loud" vids and was disappointed. Their concept is a great idea and could be very valuable but as a viewer looking to learn the execution doesn't make sense when some of their players take these weird lines, personally I found myself watching these and not finding much value. I think the concept is potentially powerful but they need to replace some of these players. Its pretty easy to guess who 🙂. Thank you for your work @Finding Equilibrium your vids and insights are awesome.
I agree. Not sure if they where playing for real money. Or for bragging rights.
If the money was not real then coming on here and trying to out play people would be great for a solid regular. As it opens the door for creating a persona or false image.
Interesting video! This series is to demonstrate the flow of changing dynamics at the table and exploitative plays which are largely over exaggerated as a teaching tool to create interesting spots that they can then break down. It's important to point out that this series isn't really a style of play they teach in their Solve For Why TV courses which is a lot more balanced, GTO oriented and has more solver work and analysis than I've seen on any other training site. I'd definitely recommend looking at their training videos for any intermediate to advanced player.
Thanks for info. As I mentioned in the vid, the analysis is not intended as a critique of any player or system. The main goal of this channel is just to analyze interesting spots from a solver perspective.
@@FindingEquilibrium and you do an awesome job at that buddy. Keep up the great work! 🙏
So why they Play different from what they Teach can you explain this haha stupid random btn clicking Nobody of Them plays Tuff online Games These days
@@elon_mI think they're trying something different with this series which was a bit of an experiment. Theres lots of resources out there showing you how to respond in a balanced way to common spots you find yourself in. Theres not many that show how you can exploit player's tendancies and histories in a live setting, and how in these games theres a flow in how the last couple of hands then influences how they decide to play this hand (GTO would largely consider each hand in a vacuum). So for example they might open a little wider in a certain situation but since 1 series only has 1 orbit they'll open really wide to demonstrate how you can widen your range in these spots. You make a good point that its maybe not the most effective teaching tool if you start to emulate their play, but the most helpful thing in the series is to hear their commentaries on the kinds of factors they're taking into account when they make these adjustments. Also they do make mistakes which they will freely acknowledge. It is a really entertaining show though.
@@Richard-pv1vc ok im gonna explain u how this works: the solver plays mixed freq. plays which have the same EV. u can take all sorts of gto lines that are very interesting and can lead to crazy plays, but this T8o play is nowhere close to any reasonable play and it amazes me how nick levels himself into his own theories that have nothing to do with the math the solver uses. and the fact that people pay for berkeys content is beyond fascinating: exploitative scam marketing at its best.
Really strong video sir, very elliquently said in most regards and the knowledge expressed is obvious. Much appreciated for a alternative thought process theory and strategy which has honestly brought my game to another level of skill and capabilities watching your videos has definitely helped me and my game significantly. Thank you sir
“Got em!” - Matt Berkey
This stuff is interesting to me but most people dont think this analytically about anything let alone poker. Even at higher stakes against people that are very experienced. This looks sweet when it works but it has a lot of moving parts. Kinda like pete carrol throwing the ball on the 1 yard line in the Super Bowl
I love your channel! Please keep the great content coming!!🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽
Yoo FE, totally unrelated comment here but: what do you think about DTO app that Dominik Nische released last year? He claims it’s solver approved but i was playing around with the free version and the DTO bot folded JJ 20bbs deep SRP on 986 FD to my small 1/3 donk bet when pot was 5.5bb OTF.
Other pros on have also disagreed with some of the ranges it uses on some spots and have found out that some of those plays aren’t indeed PIO approved...
Thoughts?
Best poker content on YT
GTP? Game Theory Punting... Who needs strategy when you punt your money away with trash hands pre-flop. I think you guys see the cameras and this new format and are trying to make moves/impress the viewers but in the end its' clown vs. clown.
Pretty much
I wouldn't say it is clown verse clown.
But i do feel skeptical on the legitimacy of the hands. Or the content. Or i am questioning whether they are playing for real money or not. Or if the head phones are actually working. Maybe there is some lip reading?
Give me the guy in the button. He can come to my home game anytime lol.
Extremely juicy hand. Lovin these solveforwhy analyses
Amazing content FE. How big in terms of Ram were those multi-way sims demanding? Was thinking about getting simple 3 way myself but might need a hardware upgrade!
Thanks! 'm not sure how much ram is needed. I have 128gb so I was able to run it easily, but they have multiple equilibrium finding algorithms you can choose from that require different amounts of memory. I would ask them directly on discord - they are pretty responsive to questions.
@@FindingEquilibrium Thanks Dude, also keep up the great work. I love these vids!
janandez poker made a Video About his new 20k supercomputer to run multiway sims just couple weeks ago .th-cam.com/video/N-U7LjrvLtQ/w-d-xo.html
Amazing video as always man!! Keep me coming!
Great video as always from you. The plays and the justifications of those GTO mega-brains gave me a desease, thanks a lot for that part.
Now 1 question for you & the community. Im looking to study live cash game 9 handed deep poker (500bb+) what software should i get? Are the ranges close enough to get the '200bb range converter' or should i get myself just the piosolver/monkersolver and figure stuff out myself? Is range converter basically just a part made with piosolver, do i understand that correctly?
Greetings from Switzerland!
I wouldn't study 500bb+ poker unless you really know of games running where people are that deep
@@GeoFreako i do know where games are running that deep. Is it close enough to 200bb or does it change a lot?
@@MyEmp123 It changes a fair bit I think. not too sure tho
Are you krantyy by any chance?
@@johngriller4997 yup lul. Discord?
Having listened to a lot of solveforwhy content, and to be fair, Berkey does say they are playing wider ranges because they are playing limited hands since they have to enunciate the action. He also says they are necessarily trying to create tough spots post flop as a teaching method. That said, I find that cash game players have (by default) much wider pre-flop ranges, and tend to deviate much more outside GTO, than MTT players. Finally, there is an "On Second Thought" podcast where they analyze the play and often recognize it as sub-standard and criticize it for what it is.
MTT players are way wider/OOL than Cash game players by a big margin...
@@johngriller4997 I'm just not seeing that - personally. However, I tend to play feeezeouts. I guess with unlimited rebuys...
Harry Cardillo oh, that may be a factor. I play re-entry and rebuys and everyone that isn’t a good known player is just clicking buttons. And these are high stakes MTTs 109$ and higher, and people make a ton of mistakes that I don’t see often made at 500NL cash.
MTT players have WAY wider ranges dude. Given the high ante (10-15%) and smaller open raise sizes due to shorter stacks. Look at some basic preflop charts for a spot such as BB defence in 100bb no ante compared to 30bb with 12% ante
@@JS-tm1gq Tournament dynamics change significantly. Cash is static. So, yes, optimally they should have wider opens in the later stages of a tournament. But chips (IMO) have more consistent value in a tournament. Cash games you have a pocket. So maybe the incentive to play a little more wide is natural. These are just my observations.
hello nice video as always, i have a question, how do you have this excel report of all boards etc ?
Thanks. They are aggregated reports from piosolver.
Is there a way to make same report in simple postflop?
So what are your opinions on the Simple 3-way solver? I like the comparison to the heads up spot, but I am considering getting Simple 3-way, so your opinion would be great! Keep up the great content!
Also, insane hand, in so many ways.
Love the video - especially the editing!
How come you didn't cover what GTO would have done on that river shove with Matt's hand and prior streets play? I'm guessing GTO would have folded.
That was a sick level
that was a fantastic video and a very cool hand as well
congrats for your channel!! anyone knows if pio solver needs to be bought once and you have it for ever , or they give you only 1 year licence?
Thanks. Pio sells permanent licenses. Also if you get one of the more basic versions you can upgrade in the future by paying the difference for the more advanced solver.
They were playing play money for the video, right?
Yup.... I dont believe these dudes cant hear shit its too much of a controlled environment (lab conditions)
I have strong(ish) holdings, a looser player bluffs me, I’ll call.
*drags pot
Does this not seem overcomplicated to anyone else?
Nick is welcome in any game i play
What’s going on with the commentary by the players? How does that work?
To sum up poker to this point: Players discover solvers and adjust their play along GTO lines. But now that high stakes players are all playing GTO, they adjust by deviating from GTO as an exploit. And we're back to where we were 5 years ago before solvers.
We've entered a causal loop of people playing shit hands!
Berkey thinks he can implement what Magnus Carlsen did in chess. The problem here is that Carlsen is an actual genius in chess and Berkey isn't anywhere to close to that level in NLHE.
What did Magnus do in chess?
Tonko he purposely used to deviate from theoretical sound opening lines in order to confuse his opponents and outplay them in the middle game/end game.
However, he doesn’t do this in high stakes situations such as WCC tournaments where opponents are very tough and can easily punish these minuse ev deviations from Carlsen.
Agree with the first bit. Not sure on the second. Poker has too much unknown information to sit back and confirm if he's poker's version of Carlsen. Certainly, he calls Nick's play here and does so again (against Nick in a 1,600bb pot) in a later series of Poker Out Loud. However, he does seem to make more readily identifiable mistakes than I expect Carlsen would in comparable contexts. But, again, it could just be variance making him look bad there.
this does work on small stakes and feel playing pros like mr T8o. berky himself is a fancy playing lag who wouldn't survive midstakes online but can get away with his antics in deeper live games with fish. and that's alright, he's working his ass off to create wealth for himself by getting exposure and invites and a stable that he can profit of.
so if Berkey is going Carlsen then Nick is going full Naka with a bong rip
I liked Berkey's line, but Nick's doesn't make any sense at all to me. If you're gonna take this line, why use such a low equity hand? I mean even taking into consideration all his thought process.
Preflop call is bad, flop call is bad, turn bet is okay, but reshove is super bad IMO. But I guess you gotta trust your guts in poker and Nick went with that.
why this hand? This isn't exactly the best hand to evaluate because the two other hands are hardly worth evaluating post flop. The Chaos portion of this doesn't exactly justify itself.
Why do you analyse play money hands?
That being said, still, on the other hand.
Sounds like my disastrous love life over the years.
Literally nobody ever would continue on that flop with 10/8
Maybe at a 1/3 cash game where there is a weird dynamic. Or in a game where there is personal history. Where the button was going to try and out play Matt.
It shouldn't even be calling pre facing a 5bb open, and who opens 5x even in 2017
Nick tried to be king for a day but became fool for a lifetime
The only thing that makes sense is Berkey is spreading bad poker strategy purposefully to make poker great again, because there is no way self-proclaimed poker coaches could actually be this bad
Yea hes just promoting "any two cards can win",well its not a bad plan;-)
8:00 what the hell is this game, and can I please buy in right now?? Haha these are coaches? I love the tech setup, but they're not accomplishing much if everyone is trying to outdonk each other.
Berkey exploites Nick like a fucking bamf in this hand, holy shit. Insane how on point his reads were and how well he acted on them.
Is this video a setup ?! Doesn’t seem genuine
I work as hard as I can every day to find my equilibrium
@0:47 but why is the #1 thing trending for you #MySexualSituationIn5Words ? 😂
You also forget to mention the raise size isn't 2.5bb, but 5bb. Which makes the "Solver guys" play even worse
Yeah, maybe I should have explicitly pointed it out, but I did mention he raised on the larger side. In theory his range should be tighter with a larger open, but I am guessing Berkey was also opening wider at that time as well so I decided not to mess with the solution and just used the standard GTO range. Of course none of these ranges will be accurate to what is actually played but I still think they are useful approximations for purposes of a general analysis.
Is this what poker is like in 2020??? It's been a minute...
this is just toxic material.berkeys stuff is just ehhhhhh
Lol everyone in your chat is a winning player
The fact that this was a setup experiment (controlled environment where players are involved in explaining their play and assuming these headphones mute other players from hearing) directly affects the explinations and results. When you’re playing poker in a lab you’re not really playing poker. Its too setup
if you learned to lip read this would be extremely exploitable
Thanks for the video. I enjoyed it and your other videos. However, I would rather see hands where players are playing at least somewhat reasonably. This whole hand is absurd, with players using bullshit fancy terms and reasoning to justify terrible plays. Bring back Llinus Love or Ike haxton, where we can study equilibrium strategies. This is not a effective way to study GTO.
Lol....I plan to review an online hand by Linus for the next vid.
Finding Equilibrium yes, please do more Linus breakdowns. After all, as a student of the game I’d like to learn from the best, not from the 150th in the world for example.
In particular, I’d love to see more hands of how Linus navigates tournaments spots since tournaments have varying stack sizes and the right play and ranges change given the stacks, positions, ICM, etc.
From all this trainwreck, the worst part form me is the 94 lead vs 2 players with no backdoors, like wtf are you doing???
The problems that happen when your preflop ranges are way too wide against good aggressive players who lean to the spewy side. If hes playing against scared money this shit works more often than not but sometimes fighting fire is best with water
these guys rationalizing their bad play has me tilted
If you tilt because people play bad you have bad mental game issues. You should be happy when ppl play bad haha
@@JeffZuccMusk i would generally agree, but having to hear their thoughts and knowing that they are selling a product based on them has me rolling my eyes
Why 3-Way is better than Monker solver?
damn, I gotta play higher. This game seems as live as my local 1000 buyin 2/3/5 games
"Let's play like shit because we are recording and it's boring otherwise"
nick howard played it terribly, way to assumptive in his ranging of berky, berkys play i guess was based on how nick plays so its whatever.
Never clicked faster
How can they talk without hearing what other guy said?
Headphones
Read my lips.
How is solveforwhy I paid subscription while finding equilibrium is free lol
T8 guy is typical fancy play hero. by now he should have changed his ways or he's still stuck on small to medium stakes.
These are the guys who had to write a script before they were able to call that girl they liked back in junior high.
Don't overthink poker.
Nick you just played it bad that’s all
how can you be playing poker for thousands of dollars in 2020 with a cable hanging from your headphones?
Why is he narrating the hand while playing?
It's an episode of Poker Out Loud where the players wear noise cancelling headphones and listen to music when it's not their action so that each player can explain in detail what they're thinking for their action. It's an attempt to better explain game flow considerations and how they affect play.
I love how an opening bet, followed by a re-raise, are both interpreted as weak by Nick. I appreciate theory, but this is over-thinking it.
Do you look at video requests?
If so, could you analyze this three-way all in hand from the Triton SHR?
th-cam.com/video/9SL7hzMaygw/w-d-xo.htmlm55s
These types of videos are fun but getting more laughable. I guess I'm getting better at poker maybe?
GTO aka Good Tournament Play
This is what you call "playing your opponent like a fiddle"
Tom Cads I got that reference
I m not poker smart but poker will continue to shrink until the USA has another real estate boom or another dot com type of irrational exuberant credit/equity converted to cash for spending economic boom.
ah more hearty lols from the chat pro community. Always great to get a shot in at people willing to expose themselves to the public, isn't it?
bitter no one listens to your bad/boring
podcast?
@@romanz8631 not really, the pod is aimed at one specific community, but thanks for the QED
I love how they use all this technicities acting like if they were pros while playing and making blunders worse than Mikky while being fucked up lmao.. I thought that was a parody at first
Sponsored by butcherbox
Chaos is a ladder
multi-way solvers eh
worst play ever wtf
I wonder if they broadcast all the hands when their reverse levels were complete horse shit.
The solver is not Hood at all 🤣🤣😂😂
We should care why solver do what he do, not what he do.
fucking LOL
This is just gonzo poker
Tell me this hand is some kind of a joke or troll?
It’s like watching freeroll players conceptualise their thought processes. Not Berkey, he’s a boss. But there’s no way Nick is a profitable player. I know it’s not, but this almost seems like a manufactured hand to make Berkey look good.
There is no such thing as chaos. Distortion is as close as it gets. What you have come to believe is chaos is more accurately "near infinite complexity".
Never before have the words FOLD PRE been more applicable lol. This is what happens when you do stupid stuff and go off down a rabbit hole. Total joke hand.