4th edition Dungeon Master Guide 1 and 2 are a treasude trove of tips for Dungeon Masters. 4th edition was the only edition where I focused more on making stories than building encounters because once I got the roles of monsters with encounter budget, I was extremely confident on how to make those encounters.
4e is a paradise for DMs, so many good tools and advice. Monster levels, practical loot guidelines, and the monster meta-roles (minion, standard, elite, solo) are all gems. Strange as it may sound, other editions use monster meta-roles too, but because they were never explicit until 4e I never realized it. I put my parties through quite a few cakewalks and TPKs just because I didn't pick up on the fact that some monsters are weak/strong for their HD/CR, and nothing pointed the fact out to me. I can't help thinking that the 5e team had a lot of anti-4e bias, where they went out of their way to avoid 4e innovations for the sake of anti-4e sentiment, and the DMG is one of those books where it really shows.
In one of Colville's vids, he brings up a story about how Wizards pitched 5E to him and his crew [wherever he worked at the time] before it released and one of his friends who ADORED 4E absolutely hated their 5E pitch, and his friend asked them, "Why would I ever play 5E when I love the current edition so much?", and according to Matt, they legitimately didn't have an answer for him. I found that hilarious because I had a hard time transitioning too, still am. I've adopted a streamlined, less complex combat/encounter system that's closer to 5E than anything else. We don't have time for hours of tactician-based combat anymore, we got stories to tell! And I use a LOT of 5E adventure/campaign books, but I still seem to reach for my 4E books for reference way more often even though we're technically running a 5E campaign lol I mean, for fuck's sake, HOW IS THERE NOT A NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN BOOK FOR 5E? Also, hate me if you want, but the Spellplague is the coolest damn thing to happen in the last 30 years to the stale-ass potato chip that has become the Forgotten Realms.
Bonus: Bloodied. Steal the Bloodied status. It makes perfect sense in a system like D&D where hp is representing not luck but actual hits that even on a construct you should be able to tell when it hits half health. Also that opens the door to mechanical options like gnoll fury, or an explicit rule that enemies have a penalty to resist intimidation once they're bloodied, because they know they're on the ropes.
4e was the Edition for GMs. As a forever GM, I firmly believe Dungeons and Dragons works the best, taking bits and pieces from each edition. A rule here, a change there and flat out changing outright.
When using player models, keep one thing in mind: most people do not neatly fall under one label or the other, so you'll likely end up dealing with players who have a bit of all labels, but gravitate towards one or two in particular.
I pull a lot from 4e for my 5e games. I've used minion-styled enemies in my games and my martial player tend to love slicing through several of them each round (Slayer player or not). Of course, this is a little different in 5e since most martial characters get more than 1 attack a turn, so they can dispatch minions more easily that way. Still, I recommend using CR 0 monsters for level 1 and 2 minions and CR 1/8th monsters for level 3 minions. Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a very helpful table for just such things.
the tactical terrain options were beaut as well. Little squares of arcane empowerment or shadowy draining effects etc. With mechanical turrets that the thief could disable with skill checks. All good fun. The types of players page was a huge step towards my roleplaying toolkit of understanding what everyone brings to the table, the best two pages of writing in ANY edition, for players and DM's alike.
OMG yes. Tactical terrain was awesome, especially given how many 4E powers involved repositioning. I designed an encounter with three magic fields that randomly swapped with each other every other round (one empowering, one neutral, one damaging). The players quickly figured out the "dance" of running in and out of zones and pushing enemies into damage. Another encounter involved battling atop a speeding train (it was a fantasy-steampunk setting) while the winds pushed them back a number of squares every round based on skill checks. And of course punting enemies off the side of the train. 4E was super cinematic.
@@blackshard641 cinematic as all get out: might even call it heroic fantasy? But: just picked up a second hand copy of 4th ed gamma world and lost heart at all the damn cards...so many iterations of +1d6 here, + 2 there...I can see why people were thrown off.
I started playing D&D during 4e. And at that point, I wasn’t tuned in to podcasts or TTRPG news so I didn’t pay any attention when 5E came out. Me and my group got away from it for a couple years then started back in with 5E. There are definitely little things throughout that they nixed and I don’t really know why. Also found 4e books easier to read and understand (both because of written content and layout). Then I start getting obsessed with DND on another level and was shocked to realize so many people on the internet thought 4e was a bad system… I don’t think 5e is baaad….but, really, the only reason we haven’t reverted to 4e is because we play virtually now using VTT and DND Beyond.
I know 4E has a bad rep but from a long time DM (30 years) it's by far the best when it came to prep, set up and monsters. Everything was so DM friendly I'm shocked more of these 4e rules weren't continued.
@@wizardsling 4e definitely had some great ideas. The monster "classes" was another big one that made encounter design very clear and has shaped my encounter design ever since. A frontline of soldiers and brutes backed up by squishy artillery(goblins with bows or something) and a controller is way more memorable than "you encounter 6 ogres!"
Great video. well done. I've come to realize there are at least a half a dozen rule mechanics from 4E D&D that are good ideas!!! 1- Skill Challenges: even if used sparingly by the party 2- Advantages / Disadvantage from 4e action points and a certain sub-class - that was 4e 1st 3- a monsters special ability use and recharge die roll , like breath weapon etc- that was 4e 1st 4- Minion rules for higher lv Pc's and the 1 hp goons 5-special powers or moves that happen after monster goes to half hit points or less and much much more!!! PS- 4E had good ideas , some which 5e took but I still dont like 4e or its slow pacing, crunch , and battle mat dependence and slow combat
I ran a whole campaign in 4e. It was pretty fun, but it was pretty clear it was a real departure from some of the common systems in 3.5e. It was super easy to get into, clearly made in mind for people with little or no experience in rpgs. Pick a race, a class and class focus (ex. Melee or Distance Ranger), set up your stats mostly as suggested, then pick out a few combat powers from a list, and you are pretty much good to play. My players and I often compared it to being a bit more like a video game, very structured and intuitive, if maybe feeling a bit limited if you were familiar with older editions that relied more on player imagination for what they do rather than having a mechanic prebuilt. Not bad at all, but I can understand the prety cold recption it got. But with that said, it introduced (or refined) a ton of new concepts that are popular today, like healing surges/second winds (the idea that parties can take some rests in the middle of an adventure to recover even if they dont have a dedicated healer)
I haven't played 4e, but I remember the DMG2 from 3.5 having something similar about player motivations and how to run games with them. It was sad that that type of information wasn't in the original DMG. They didn't have monster roles back then, though.
4:36 Gods, I miss monster roles. What a fantastic shorthand way of recommending battle strategies to the busy DM who doesn't have the time or patience to analyze every monster and figure out what they're built for. What an excellent way to provide designers with starting templates for individual monsters, and make sure that the MM as a whole provides a well-rounded variety of opponents. What fantastic hidden information to reveal to the players of monster hunters or military strategists - characters who should be able to recognize and counter battle tactics. It does for monsters what classes do for PCs. ....also, minions are controversial? Is this an animated film reference? 4E was so much fun to hack. I love the fact that the math was basically all exposed, and all the design symmetries made it super easy to swap out one ability for an equivalent when homebrewing monsters. If 5E dropped the ball on just one thing, it was monster and encounter design.
I find a lot of the core books for any of the editions are fairly balanced, and with each new book in the edition the wheels on the cart wobble more and more until the edition collapses. Then we get introduced to a new edition. But there is definitely a lot to pull forward from past versions to use in 5e.
Player Motivations: I still think about that section of the DMG from 4e which was my first edition for both playing and running. I totally forgot, until just now, that section came from the 4e DMG, but still give out my own summarized version of that as advice to other people when we talk about running DnD.
I have my 4e books in the shelf and I hardly ever read them with deep thought. I definately gotta sit down and check the DM guide after seeing this video!
I've been having fun playing with 5e the last couple of years, after taking a break like 30 years ago 😋 Before 5e, I last played with AD&D (2nd Edition). It's been interesting to see the changes.
5:57 ROFL!!! When you started in on the Lurker and then paused to look away only to return and say the dog keeps barker is not what I was expecting. Regarding Passive Skill Checks. I thought 5E used the same mechanic you are talking here from 4E. You start with 10 as your base, add the player's skill bonus to the base, determine the difficulty level, and then compare the two, if the person's passive skill is greater than the difficulty they succeed otherwise if the difficulty level is greater than the passive skill the player has to role to succeed. I'm pretty sure I read it in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide for 5th edition. One that you left out that Mat Colville talks about in one of his episodes for "Running the Game" is using a lot of "one-shot" monsters; though you did cover it a little with the Monster Role: Minion (6:23). These are monsters that the players out level by a lot, so they can just be killed with one successful hit. An example of this would be the party is up against an adult dragon who has 20 to 30 Kobold servants. This also gives the player a sense of power so when a wizard casts Fireball they are able to take out a group, possible a large group, of Kobolds with one hit, and melee classes are able to take them down fast. All the while the party still has to deal with, or at least keep tabs on, the dragon and what it is doing or preparing to do. Great Video and advice.
Good additional rules. I, personally, liked and enjoyed my brief foray into 4e for it's table-top battle aspect (Warhammeresque) but never wanted to play it as an RPG. Went back to 3.5e rather quickly.
I think the best interpretation of monster ranks and roles I've seen in 5e is Giffyglyph's Monster Maker. It does an excellent job of blending 4e encounter building with the math of 5e. It is very hands on, though, so isn't for DMs who don't like to homebrew and just want grab and go stats, though there are quick stats and charts to slightly appease those types of DMs. It has rules for coming up with custom attacks, fully customizing the creature with passives based on creature types, a whole system for making it a swarm, a spellcaster, and other archetypes. Has a whole table for if you want to change the static damage it provides with actual damage dice and a whole chart of how to pick your damage dice depending on how swingy you want the damage to be. Realistically all you need to do though is pick a level, rank , and role for the creature and you're set with some pre built stats that are all charted out. There's even charts simply for level and rank if you don't want to add in the role aspect. Ranks are Minion, Grunt, Elite, and Paragon. Roles are Controller, Defender, Lurker, Skirmisher, Striker, and Supporter. The base math of the system is based on a Grunt with the Striker role, with every other Rank / Role giving you stat modifications and a special passive. The striker role does give a passive as well where once per turn, a creature with the striker role can crit on a 19-20. Essentially, Grunts are a normal challenge when faced 1 on 1 by a player, Minions are weaker and are balanced around 4 of them being a normal challenge for a single player with a passive that gives them Evasion, but for all saves and not just Dexterity, Elites are slightly stronger and would serve as a solo encounter for 2 players and give a passive called Paragon Power that can be used once per round and functions like a Legendary Action, with the added option of repeating a saving throw for an ongoing effect they are under, and Paragons are boss monsters with different tiers depending on how many players there are and they also get Paragon Power, but it's equal to their Threat per round (more on threat later). Paragons also get Paragon Defence, which lets them spend HP to succeed on a saving throw, akin to Legendary Resistance, with a number of uses per long rest equal to half their threat level rounded down. A 3 person party would use the Paragon (T3) stats, which give Paragon Power 3/round and Paragon Defence 1/lr, while a 5 person party would use the Paragon (T5) stats, giving Paragon Power 5/round + Paragon Defence 2/lr, and the system has charts all the way up to T7, though the core math IS explained in a way that you could math it out yourself for 8+ character parties. Controllers deal less damage, but have a higher initiative and AC with a passive skill that gives them advantage on concentration checks. Defenders have lower speed, lower hp, and lower damage, but they get one extra saving throw that they're proficient in, a MUCH higher bonus to AC, and make opportunity attacks at advantage. Lurkers have a great penalty to AC, less hp, and one less saving throw, but they deal more damage, are proficient in stealth, and can hide as a bonus action. Skirmishers have higher movement, less ac, less hp, are trained in perceptino, and can dash as a bonus action. Strikers are the default and have that extra crit range passive. Supporters have higher initiative, higher hp, less damage, and can use the help action as a bonus action. Then, encounter building is easy peasy. You first decide a Threat Level for your encounter based on how many players you have. Party of 5 and you want a normal encounter? well the Threat Level is 5 since normal encounters have a threat level equivalent to your party size. Easy encounters are 1/2 the party, Trivial encounters are 1/4 the party, Hard encounters are 1.5x the party, and Deadly encounters are 2x the party. Minions have a Threat cost of 0.25, Grunts have a Threat cost of 1, Elites have a Threat cost of 2, and Paragons have a threat cost equal to their tier. So, you COULD use a T3 paragon and have extra wiggle room of 2 threat points for a party of 5, or you could use the T5 paragon solo. You could also use that T5 paragon and some other creatures in a hard/deadly encounter. That threat math assumes that your monsters are within 2 levels of the party. I.e. if the party is level 5, you're using the math for creature levels 3-7. For every 3 levels above/below the party, you double/halve the threat level accordingly. So, for instance, a Level 2 Grunt against a Level 5 party would only cost 0.5 instead of the normal 1, whereas a Level 8 Grunt would cost 2. This keeps going, so Level 11 would cost 4, Level 14 would cost 8, so on and so forth. This leads to some creativity in how you want to challenge your party. Sure, you could give them an Elite equivalent to their party level, OR you could toss in a Grunt that's 3 levels higher if the stats for that Grunt seem more appropriate. I typically have defaulted to just using monsters within that 2 level range, but I plan to do some comparisons of stats to see if it might be more useful to just up the level instead of upping the rank when I want an enemy to be more challenging. All in all I haven't looked back since using the system, it's free for download off of gifflyglyph's reddit, or you can support the creator on Patreon for super cheap and get a bookmarked version of the PDF, v3-0-0 is the current version
There's a lot of cool stuff in 4e. The Major/Move/Minor action system. The At-Will/Encounter/Daily recharge system. Scaling by something other than attacking more. Monsters by type, particularly minions. Predictable scaling. Ritual spells. Add in the fact that the rules are much clearer and balanced. There are some flaws, to be sure. The bonus-typing is awkward, and what feat bonus stacks with what other bonus can be pretty confusing, particularly when you have to dig into a lot of errata to find it. Also the core class-level structure feels a little soul-sucking. Mostly gaining a level seems like it only grants a slightly different way to attack, which basically invalidates some other older way to attack, and is entirely encapsulated.
The bonus feat stacking thing is indeed a bit annoying/strange. And losing old sttacks for newer ones also sometimes can feel bad I agree. Have you tried the essential classes? Some of them have different structures and can feel quite nice. (The first essential book was not that good though in my oppinion).
@@tigriscallidus4477 Hadn't looked at the Essentials, but picked up the books cheap online. Only the Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard book got here so far, and I actually really like the way they work. Feats are really clean, since they're built to be. But where it excels at first glance is the classes. They get closer to a traditional D&D class structure really appeals to me. Fighters have an interesting set of stances, Rogues have cool tricks, Wizards have all a more clear spell selection process. The way that many of the Fighter and Rogue encounter powers were basically transformed into limited use damage boosts really works for me, since there are more tactical options added to baseline combat. It's like 4e, but with actual class identity.
@@thebitterfig9903 i think there was also in the previous classes differences it was just harder to see. I also dont like in the first essential book thst fighter and rogue both are a bit too similar (encounter power is more or less the same) and that the typical "simple martial, complex caster thing is shoeing again). Having said that, I do like essentials as a whole and in the later books they had more experimentation. Thr hunter is really cool as one example but also the sorcerer and the druid. The barbarian is not really "simple" but a cool experimentation of defender striker hybrid.
I stuck with 3.5 as a DM but played plenty of fourth edition back in the day. It has it's ups and downs, but on the whole is an excellent game which deserved better than it got. In some ways it was badly impacted by the meta events around it's publication. So many folks never gave it a chance and you still see people claiming it wasn't a functional game for role-playing with despite that being objectively false and easy to disprove ( e.g. The player types advice, skill challenge etc.)
I have run 3 seperate campaigns from lvl 1 to 30 on 4e I have run another campaign from 1 to 11 (intentionally ending it there) - follow by another from 1 to 21 (intentionally ending it there) I am actively running another campaign from 1 to 30 (players currently lvl 17) So, needless to say, I’m pretty familiar with the system and experiences therein Anyone who says “it’s not D&D” either didn’t play it right or wasn’t paying attention
"All the monsters rush forward and attack until all their hit points are gone" - well that describes pretty much every Marvel, DC, Star Wars, John Wick, Matrix movie ever. Maybe action 'blockbuster' movie producers should get a copy of this book!
Heh, the Black Spider... My group captured the little guy alive, and through some assorted shenanigans, the group eventually split into two parallel campaigns, and he ended up pardoned in Waterdeep and in a very... indentured position to the half of the party that went into the Dungeon of the Mad Mage. Right now, he's extremely aware of how short his life expectancy will be if he *doesn't* make every effort to keeping the party's warlock safe, because the two rogues trust him about as far as they can throw Castle Waterdeep. :D As for houserules, I find that Chesterton's Fence is a solid guideline for whether or not you should change a rule - if you can't see why the extant rule is there, if you can't figure out the rationale of why they did it, don't touch it, there may be a weird interaction you've overlooked. Hold off on changing it until you can assess what else gets messed up by it.
@@wizardsling Friend of mine is planning to run Phandelver, and she's replacing the Black Spider entirely, with a tabaxi Mastermind rogue... The Napoleon of Crime, if you will, and his two tabaxi catburglar henchmen *will* sneak into the party's room and search through their stuff when they're out. ;)
@@Mothsaam thanks I'll have to check it out. I do remember hearing about WotC doing an OGL thing with 4E that also turned people off. Part of me wants to track down the core books for 4E and give it a try. I'm sure I can find them second hand. I'll at least try to track down the DMG.
It came too early. Back in the day people liked to play role playing games. Now table top video game sims like ICRPG and EZ D6 are all the rage. Who would have thought.
My post-apocalyptic fantasy setting Ashen Frontiers, for Pathfinder and 5e) draws heavily on 4e. For example, there's only one type of roll, the check (attacks are just checks with the Melee or Ranged skill). That means no saving throws. There are four Defences (Armour, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will) instead. And lots more.
For real. It was actually balanced and designed for gameplay which makes it easier for DMs. 5e has no idea what it's doing in this regard which is why homebrew and 3rd party content is so necessary.
I really liked this video, but felt misled and kinda duped by the title. I was thinking more like “Hey, here’s a Combat rule that 5e removed but is actually really cool!” but this was more theoretical and abstract than just “rules”. I would’ve probably called this “7 *DM tips* to steal from 4e” personally. That’s not to say I didn’t love this though-thank you for the video and information!
Explorer: (Me: I'm interested to hear this one, That name sounds like it fits some of my players!) "I missed this one out" DANGIT :p ALSO, 3:57: this image is a callout, how dare :p Great video though :D Very useful tips, might have to track down a copy of the 4E DMG.
My 5e party fear Owlbear as they know I'm using Pf2e Owlbear and they had an encounter which they choose to flee from. I use a lot of custom rules and monitoring the players reaction to see if they like the rule or if I should drop it.
I am 47 yo. I bought/played 4e when it came out then shelved it for PF1 and then 5e. I moved and started a new group but soon got "discouraged" with 5e and WotC nonsense. Decided to introduce group to 4e, never went back! 4e is massive underrated....give it a simple and tailor-made vtt......game changer! Love it!
@@robertlewis4769 thats great to hear. Where I live its really hard to get people to play 4e. I think now with all the naterial out it is really a great edition
Especially now with all the content released! With the essential classes you also have some easy to play classes (the later essential ones are even interesting while keeping a bit simpler). Releasing a new core book with 4 complex and 4 simpler classes would be really good start. Especially with the lots of new rp things added later (better skill challenges in dmg 2, skill powers,character themes, better skill check math)
Honestly 4e was a very well designed game. It's main issue was that it was a poorly designed dnd game. While I stuck with 3.5, I had picked up and used things from the core books
I would say the main issue was that the early adventures were mostly quite bad. The later ones are a lot better, but since there was no 3rd party support (thanks to really shitty license), there is not much content in modules in general.
I had played every version from BECMI through 3.5. I bought the 4e core books but never had a group to play with. I had always played using theater of the mind, and when 4e made the use of minis and grid maps mandatory that was a big turn off. It felt like they were trying to sell a bunch of accessories. Additionally, a lot of the terminology they used and mechanics that they adopted really felt like they were trying to ape the combat mechanics of WoW or other MMO’s. Like I said, I never played, but the way they broke the classes down into power type and combat role felt clever but also restricting. I know that most of the time classes take on the same rolls in most combats, but it just seemed to be emphasized in the 4e core books…
I think 4e was just more honest about this than other editions. And thid also helped to create a bigger variety in the roles. You cant just have a cleric as a healer or a fighter as a tank. You still have quite q bit of customization and most classes have a secondary role in which you can go more into than not. And the "it looks like an mmo" is often heqrd but mainly by p3ople who did not play 4e or no mmo. Yes it has cleqr structures, but so have mobas and still characters feel reqlly different. And with skill powers etc. You can still do quite a lot of things. Its a shame you never played especially now with all the released material it is a really good game. With lots of in and out of combat tools
@@tigriscallidus4477 I don't know if comparing it to a MOBA as vs an MMO is making the case that you want. (I've played both, and they can be great; they're just not what I want in my ttrpg.) I didn't boycott 4e, I just moved twice during that era of the game, and never got a group together. I didn't even get a 5e group to play with until about 2 years ago, and we meet maybe every three weeks on average. So I keep seeing a lot of 4e pdf sales and thinking maybe I'll try it out, but frankly, I'm not swimming in ttrpg time.
5e actually has passive checks but no one ever uses them correctly. People only focus on passive perception for combat and that’s about it. Jeremey Crawford was on a podcast about D&D and one thing they talked about was passive skills, and Jeremy literally said how they’re supposed to be used.
PASSIVE CHECKS A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn’t involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster. Here’s how to determine a character’s total for a passive check: 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score. For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14.
“Speaking truth to power” is a very specific phrase that comes from the civil rights/non-violence movement and while I liked this video, you should probably drop that from your intro
Gotta say with minions it's a really bad idea to let the martials do cleave damage through them. Yes, it's a drag for the fighter to spend 3 turns killing 12 minions that the wizard could pop with one fireball but that's the point, that's what minions bring to the table. They're control monsters designed to slow powerful single hitting characters down and force them to waste time and resources when they'd be better applying that powerful single target damage to a specific enemy.... just as it's (often) a waste to drop a fireball on a single target. They're not just about the ego boost on oneshotting creatures.... they're a tarpit that your aoe characters need to blow up before the one hit kill characters blunder into.
Being from Oklahoma and then moving to Colorado is so cool. 🤠 👍🤜 Guess I'm the power gamer, slash and bash best. Kill with as much damage as possible. I'm North of Dallas? What part of Oklahoma are you from.
Hey I'm from Tulsa, moved to Denver during the summer when I was 27, just like the man in the John Denver song... felt like kismet. I've got family Dallas, been there many times!
@@wizardsling so it went out of business for a while. Does it still have high dive, the caves for the kids to go through. What about the flying W bbq and show. I heard they had a fire back in 2016 and had rebuilt.
I'm such a good power gamer that are dm let all the other players roll for stats and made me use point buy. And I was Still more powerful than the rest of the party.
@@wizardsling and if you wrap them into the narrative, you can use them to resolve travel and exploration sections in an entertaining way. I use the Coville method for skill challenges in 5e.
A skirmish game with a participation trophy mentality where every class gets an important role in combat, no matter how preposterous, because “balance”. This desire for classes to be “balanced” feels like a throwback to the first iteration of the game, whereby players were competing against one another and characters were almost all Evil. Now, in the 21st Century, it has been established that the best way to have healthy fun with ttrpgs is through COOPERATIVE STORYTELLING, which is something that D&D has NEVER been designed to facilitate.
Why 'steal' from 4e - better to play it as it's a near perfect system. Steal from other systems - I'm adopting Pathfinder's 2e beat DC by 10+ = crit rule.
I think some would disagree with you about 4e's "perfection." it's a lot more complex than 5e, a system now old enough that many TTRPG gamers have only known 5e and grown up with it. It's a big challenge to ask players only familiar with 5e to switch systems. But that doesn't mean 4e doesn't have some great mechanics that can be used and adapted... hence why I made my video ;)
@@wizardsling Certainly I'd concede 4e is more elaborate than 5e, but I find it actually simpler because all the classes are constructed around a single design philosophy. 5e we abandoned because of flaws in the encounter building (the math is broken - note building encounters in 4e is loads simpler). Also the action economy is deeply flawed (the specificity requirement for the bonus action). Is there anything I'd borrow from 5e for a 4e campaign? Hmmm.
Here’s a good timeline for the List:
1 - 0:29
2 - 3:38
3 - 4:34
4 - 8:06
5 - 9:43
6 - 11:47
7 - 12:20
thanks for doing this!
4th edition Dungeon Master Guide 1 and 2 are a treasude trove of tips for Dungeon Masters. 4th edition was the only edition where I focused more on making stories than building encounters because once I got the roles of monsters with encounter budget, I was extremely confident on how to make those encounters.
I herd that many times about how encounter building was better in 4e, for sure
4e is a paradise for DMs, so many good tools and advice. Monster levels, practical loot guidelines, and the monster meta-roles (minion, standard, elite, solo) are all gems. Strange as it may sound, other editions use monster meta-roles too, but because they were never explicit until 4e I never realized it. I put my parties through quite a few cakewalks and TPKs just because I didn't pick up on the fact that some monsters are weak/strong for their HD/CR, and nothing pointed the fact out to me.
I can't help thinking that the 5e team had a lot of anti-4e bias, where they went out of their way to avoid 4e innovations for the sake of anti-4e sentiment, and the DMG is one of those books where it really shows.
Excellent points!
Its so sad that the 4e DMGs are better for 5e than the actual 5r dmg...
In one of Colville's vids, he brings up a story about how Wizards pitched 5E to him and his crew [wherever he worked at the time] before it released and one of his friends who ADORED 4E absolutely hated their 5E pitch, and his friend asked them, "Why would I ever play 5E when I love the current edition so much?", and according to Matt, they legitimately didn't have an answer for him.
I found that hilarious because I had a hard time transitioning too, still am. I've adopted a streamlined, less complex combat/encounter system that's closer to 5E than anything else. We don't have time for hours of tactician-based combat anymore, we got stories to tell! And I use a LOT of 5E adventure/campaign books, but I still seem to reach for my 4E books for reference way more often even though we're technically running a 5E campaign lol
I mean, for fuck's sake, HOW IS THERE NOT A NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN BOOK FOR 5E?
Also, hate me if you want, but the Spellplague is the coolest damn thing to happen in the last 30 years to the stale-ass potato chip that has become the Forgotten Realms.
Bonus: Bloodied. Steal the Bloodied status. It makes perfect sense in a system like D&D where hp is representing not luck but actual hits that even on a construct you should be able to tell when it hits half health. Also that opens the door to mechanical options like gnoll fury, or an explicit rule that enemies have a penalty to resist intimidation once they're bloodied, because they know they're on the ropes.
I agree, bloodied is a good word. I usually says 'it's starting to look hurt" at half HP
4e was the Edition for GMs.
As a forever GM, I firmly believe Dungeons and Dragons works the best, taking bits and pieces from each edition.
A rule here, a change there and flat out changing outright.
Good point. 4e has a lot to offer
When using player models, keep one thing in mind: most people do not neatly fall under one label or the other, so you'll likely end up dealing with players who have a bit of all labels, but gravitate towards one or two in particular.
that'e very true. thanks for the comment!
I pull a lot from 4e for my 5e games. I've used minion-styled enemies in my games and my martial player tend to love slicing through several of them each round (Slayer player or not). Of course, this is a little different in 5e since most martial characters get more than 1 attack a turn, so they can dispatch minions more easily that way. Still, I recommend using CR 0 monsters for level 1 and 2 minions and CR 1/8th monsters for level 3 minions. Xanathar's Guide to Everything has a very helpful table for just such things.
Great tips! Thanks for the comment
the tactical terrain options were beaut as well. Little squares of arcane empowerment or shadowy draining effects etc. With mechanical turrets that the thief could disable with skill checks. All good fun. The types of players page was a huge step towards my roleplaying toolkit of understanding what everyone brings to the table, the best two pages of writing in ANY edition, for players and DM's alike.
Agreed!
OMG yes. Tactical terrain was awesome, especially given how many 4E powers involved repositioning. I designed an encounter with three magic fields that randomly swapped with each other every other round (one empowering, one neutral, one damaging). The players quickly figured out the "dance" of running in and out of zones and pushing enemies into damage. Another encounter involved battling atop a speeding train (it was a fantasy-steampunk setting) while the winds pushed them back a number of squares every round based on skill checks. And of course punting enemies off the side of the train. 4E was super cinematic.
@@blackshard641 cinematic as all get out: might even call it heroic fantasy? But: just picked up a second hand copy of 4th ed gamma world and lost heart at all the damn cards...so many iterations of +1d6 here, + 2 there...I can see why people were thrown off.
I started playing D&D during 4e. And at that point, I wasn’t tuned in to podcasts or TTRPG news so I didn’t pay any attention when 5E came out. Me and my group got away from it for a couple years then started back in with 5E. There are definitely little things throughout that they nixed and I don’t really know why. Also found 4e books easier to read and understand (both because of written content and layout).
Then I start getting obsessed with DND on another level and was shocked to realize so many people on the internet thought 4e was a bad system… I don’t think 5e is baaad….but, really, the only reason we haven’t reverted to 4e is because we play virtually now using VTT and DND Beyond.
Great feedback!
I know 4E has a bad rep but from a long time DM (30 years) it's by far the best when it came to prep, set up and monsters. Everything was so DM friendly I'm shocked more of these 4e rules weren't continued.
I’m hoping more come back in 2024 rule books
The advice in the 4e DMG was incredibly valuable to me. It was the 1st DMG I ever read. It was amazing advice.
Great to hear!
@@wizardsling 4e definitely had some great ideas. The monster "classes" was another big one that made encounter design very clear and has shaped my encounter design ever since. A frontline of soldiers and brutes backed up by squishy artillery(goblins with bows or something) and a controller is way more memorable than "you encounter 6 ogres!"
Great video. well done. I've come to realize there are at least a half a dozen rule mechanics from 4E D&D that are good ideas!!!
1- Skill Challenges: even if used sparingly by the party
2- Advantages / Disadvantage from 4e action points and a certain sub-class - that was 4e 1st
3- a monsters special ability use and recharge die roll , like breath weapon etc- that was 4e 1st
4- Minion rules for higher lv Pc's and the 1 hp goons
5-special powers or moves that happen after monster goes to half hit points or less
and much much more!!!
PS- 4E had good ideas , some which 5e took but I still dont like 4e or its slow pacing, crunch , and battle mat dependence and slow combat
great points! 4e had a lot to offer
I still reference the 4E DMG for guidance in all my games, not just for D&D. Great video!
Glad you enjoyed! thanks for the comment
I ran a whole campaign in 4e. It was pretty fun, but it was pretty clear it was a real departure from some of the common systems in 3.5e. It was super easy to get into, clearly made in mind for people with little or no experience in rpgs. Pick a race, a class and class focus (ex. Melee or Distance Ranger), set up your stats mostly as suggested, then pick out a few combat powers from a list, and you are pretty much good to play.
My players and I often compared it to being a bit more like a video game, very structured and intuitive, if maybe feeling a bit limited if you were familiar with older editions that relied more on player imagination for what they do rather than having a mechanic prebuilt.
Not bad at all, but I can understand the prety cold recption it got.
But with that said, it introduced (or refined) a ton of new concepts that are popular today, like healing surges/second winds (the idea that parties can take some rests in the middle of an adventure to recover even if they dont have a dedicated healer)
I've definitely heard that video game comparison before, too. Great points!
I haven't played 4e, but I remember the DMG2 from 3.5 having something similar about player motivations and how to run games with them. It was sad that that type of information wasn't in the original DMG.
They didn't have monster roles back then, though.
I haven’t played 4e either but it’s got some great stuff to steal!
Yeah, a lot of what's in the 4e dmg came from the 3.5 dmg 2
4:36 Gods, I miss monster roles. What a fantastic shorthand way of recommending battle strategies to the busy DM who doesn't have the time or patience to analyze every monster and figure out what they're built for. What an excellent way to provide designers with starting templates for individual monsters, and make sure that the MM as a whole provides a well-rounded variety of opponents. What fantastic hidden information to reveal to the players of monster hunters or military strategists - characters who should be able to recognize and counter battle tactics. It does for monsters what classes do for PCs. ....also, minions are controversial? Is this an animated film reference?
4E was so much fun to hack. I love the fact that the math was basically all exposed, and all the design symmetries made it super easy to swap out one ability for an equivalent when homebrewing monsters. If 5E dropped the ball on just one thing, it was monster and encounter design.
maybe they'll bring back roles with the 2024 MM
I use the minions rule, as well as like giving the "enemies" specific roles.
it's helpful innit?
I find a lot of the core books for any of the editions are fairly balanced, and with each new book in the edition the wheels on the cart wobble more and more until the edition collapses. Then we get introduced to a new edition.
But there is definitely a lot to pull forward from past versions to use in 5e.
true, there's always a power creep
I would really recomend you also reading thr DMG2 from 4e. It has a lot more great things. Including great examples of skill challenges.
I'll check it out if I can find a copy!
@@wizardsling drivethru has pdf and print on demand, but I guess you want a normal old copy
Player Motivations: I still think about that section of the DMG from 4e which was my first edition for both playing and running. I totally forgot, until just now, that section came from the 4e DMG, but still give out my own summarized version of that as advice to other people when we talk about running DnD.
it's very useful innit?
@@wizardsling So many useful things from 4e that could have been brought forward.
I have my 4e books in the shelf and I hardly ever read them with deep thought. I definately gotta sit down and check the DM guide after seeing this video!
Glad I could help!
The DMG2 from 4e is still one of my favourite resources for mid level campaigns. Highly recommend.
Ah ... so good. Reusing NPCs from the current campaign into your next campaign!
If it helps!
I've been having fun playing with 5e the last couple of years, after taking a break like 30 years ago 😋
Before 5e, I last played with AD&D (2nd Edition). It's been interesting to see the changes.
5e is certainly the most new-player-friendly version of the game. it's much easier to get into
5:57 ROFL!!! When you started in on the Lurker and then paused to look away only to return and say the dog keeps barker is not what I was expecting.
Regarding Passive Skill Checks. I thought 5E used the same mechanic you are talking here from 4E. You start with 10 as your base, add the player's skill bonus to the base, determine the difficulty level, and then compare the two, if the person's passive skill is greater than the difficulty they succeed otherwise if the difficulty level is greater than the passive skill the player has to role to succeed. I'm pretty sure I read it in the Player's Handbook or the Dungeon Master's Guide for 5th edition.
One that you left out that Mat Colville talks about in one of his episodes for "Running the Game" is using a lot of "one-shot" monsters; though you did cover it a little with the Monster Role: Minion (6:23). These are monsters that the players out level by a lot, so they can just be killed with one successful hit. An example of this would be the party is up against an adult dragon who has 20 to 30 Kobold servants. This also gives the player a sense of power so when a wizard casts Fireball they are able to take out a group, possible a large group, of Kobolds with one hit, and melee classes are able to take them down fast. All the while the party still has to deal with, or at least keep tabs on, the dragon and what it is doing or preparing to do.
Great Video and advice.
Good additional rules. I, personally, liked and enjoyed my brief foray into 4e for it's table-top battle aspect (Warhammeresque) but never wanted to play it as an RPG. Went back to 3.5e rather quickly.
Fair enough! It's a crunchy system, for sure
Both 4e DMGs are underrated gems.
indeed! I need to pick up the 2nd one
I think the best interpretation of monster ranks and roles I've seen in 5e is Giffyglyph's Monster Maker. It does an excellent job of blending 4e encounter building with the math of 5e. It is very hands on, though, so isn't for DMs who don't like to homebrew and just want grab and go stats, though there are quick stats and charts to slightly appease those types of DMs. It has rules for coming up with custom attacks, fully customizing the creature with passives based on creature types, a whole system for making it a swarm, a spellcaster, and other archetypes. Has a whole table for if you want to change the static damage it provides with actual damage dice and a whole chart of how to pick your damage dice depending on how swingy you want the damage to be. Realistically all you need to do though is pick a level, rank , and role for the creature and you're set with some pre built stats that are all charted out. There's even charts simply for level and rank if you don't want to add in the role aspect.
Ranks are Minion, Grunt, Elite, and Paragon. Roles are Controller, Defender, Lurker, Skirmisher, Striker, and Supporter. The base math of the system is based on a Grunt with the Striker role, with every other Rank / Role giving you stat modifications and a special passive. The striker role does give a passive as well where once per turn, a creature with the striker role can crit on a 19-20.
Essentially, Grunts are a normal challenge when faced 1 on 1 by a player, Minions are weaker and are balanced around 4 of them being a normal challenge for a single player with a passive that gives them Evasion, but for all saves and not just Dexterity, Elites are slightly stronger and would serve as a solo encounter for 2 players and give a passive called Paragon Power that can be used once per round and functions like a Legendary Action, with the added option of repeating a saving throw for an ongoing effect they are under, and Paragons are boss monsters with different tiers depending on how many players there are and they also get Paragon Power, but it's equal to their Threat per round (more on threat later). Paragons also get Paragon Defence, which lets them spend HP to succeed on a saving throw, akin to Legendary Resistance, with a number of uses per long rest equal to half their threat level rounded down. A 3 person party would use the Paragon (T3) stats, which give Paragon Power 3/round and Paragon Defence 1/lr, while a 5 person party would use the Paragon (T5) stats, giving Paragon Power 5/round + Paragon Defence 2/lr, and the system has charts all the way up to T7, though the core math IS explained in a way that you could math it out yourself for 8+ character parties.
Controllers deal less damage, but have a higher initiative and AC with a passive skill that gives them advantage on concentration checks. Defenders have lower speed, lower hp, and lower damage, but they get one extra saving throw that they're proficient in, a MUCH higher bonus to AC, and make opportunity attacks at advantage. Lurkers have a great penalty to AC, less hp, and one less saving throw, but they deal more damage, are proficient in stealth, and can hide as a bonus action. Skirmishers have higher movement, less ac, less hp, are trained in perceptino, and can dash as a bonus action. Strikers are the default and have that extra crit range passive. Supporters have higher initiative, higher hp, less damage, and can use the help action as a bonus action.
Then, encounter building is easy peasy. You first decide a Threat Level for your encounter based on how many players you have. Party of 5 and you want a normal encounter? well the Threat Level is 5 since normal encounters have a threat level equivalent to your party size. Easy encounters are 1/2 the party, Trivial encounters are 1/4 the party, Hard encounters are 1.5x the party, and Deadly encounters are 2x the party. Minions have a Threat cost of 0.25, Grunts have a Threat cost of 1, Elites have a Threat cost of 2, and Paragons have a threat cost equal to their tier. So, you COULD use a T3 paragon and have extra wiggle room of 2 threat points for a party of 5, or you could use the T5 paragon solo. You could also use that T5 paragon and some other creatures in a hard/deadly encounter.
That threat math assumes that your monsters are within 2 levels of the party. I.e. if the party is level 5, you're using the math for creature levels 3-7. For every 3 levels above/below the party, you double/halve the threat level accordingly. So, for instance, a Level 2 Grunt against a Level 5 party would only cost 0.5 instead of the normal 1, whereas a Level 8 Grunt would cost 2. This keeps going, so Level 11 would cost 4, Level 14 would cost 8, so on and so forth. This leads to some creativity in how you want to challenge your party. Sure, you could give them an Elite equivalent to their party level, OR you could toss in a Grunt that's 3 levels higher if the stats for that Grunt seem more appropriate. I typically have defaulted to just using monsters within that 2 level range, but I plan to do some comparisons of stats to see if it might be more useful to just up the level instead of upping the rank when I want an enemy to be more challenging.
All in all I haven't looked back since using the system, it's free for download off of gifflyglyph's reddit, or you can support the creator on Patreon for super cheap and get a bookmarked version of the PDF, v3-0-0 is the current version
great tips! thanks for chiming in
There's a lot of cool stuff in 4e. The Major/Move/Minor action system. The At-Will/Encounter/Daily recharge system. Scaling by something other than attacking more. Monsters by type, particularly minions. Predictable scaling. Ritual spells. Add in the fact that the rules are much clearer and balanced.
There are some flaws, to be sure. The bonus-typing is awkward, and what feat bonus stacks with what other bonus can be pretty confusing, particularly when you have to dig into a lot of errata to find it. Also the core class-level structure feels a little soul-sucking. Mostly gaining a level seems like it only grants a slightly different way to attack, which basically invalidates some other older way to attack, and is entirely encapsulated.
great points! thanks for the comment
The bonus feat stacking thing is indeed a bit annoying/strange. And losing old sttacks for newer ones also sometimes can feel bad I agree.
Have you tried the essential classes? Some of them have different structures and can feel quite nice. (The first essential book was not that good though in my oppinion).
@@tigriscallidus4477 Hadn't looked at the Essentials, but picked up the books cheap online. Only the Cleric/Fighter/Rogue/Wizard book got here so far, and I actually really like the way they work. Feats are really clean, since they're built to be.
But where it excels at first glance is the classes. They get closer to a traditional D&D class structure really appeals to me. Fighters have an interesting set of stances, Rogues have cool tricks, Wizards have all a more clear spell selection process. The way that many of the Fighter and Rogue encounter powers were basically transformed into limited use damage boosts really works for me, since there are more tactical options added to baseline combat.
It's like 4e, but with actual class identity.
@@thebitterfig9903 i think there was also in the previous classes differences it was just harder to see.
I also dont like in the first essential book thst fighter and rogue both are a bit too similar (encounter power is more or less the same) and that the typical "simple martial, complex caster thing is shoeing again).
Having said that, I do like essentials as a whole and in the later books they had more experimentation.
Thr hunter is really cool as one example but also the sorcerer and the druid. The barbarian is not really "simple" but a cool experimentation of defender striker hybrid.
All of these are very useful. I've never played 4e but now I'm gonna check it out, thanks for sharing
Nice video! Good advice taking the best of 4e and applying it to 5e. Thanks man :)
Glad it was helpful!
I stuck with 3.5 as a DM but played plenty of fourth edition back in the day. It has it's ups and downs, but on the whole is an excellent game which deserved better than it got. In some ways it was badly impacted by the meta events around it's publication. So many folks never gave it a chance and you still see people claiming it wasn't a functional game for role-playing with despite that being objectively false and easy to disprove ( e.g. The player types advice, skill challenge etc.)
Great points!
I have run 3 seperate campaigns from lvl 1 to 30 on 4e
I have run another campaign from 1 to 11 (intentionally ending it there) - follow by another from 1 to 21 (intentionally ending it there)
I am actively running another campaign from 1 to 30 (players currently lvl 17)
So, needless to say, I’m pretty familiar with the system and experiences therein
Anyone who says “it’s not D&D” either didn’t play it right or wasn’t paying attention
that's quite a resumé!
"All the monsters rush forward and attack until all their hit points are gone" - well that describes pretty much every Marvel, DC, Star Wars, John Wick, Matrix movie ever. Maybe action 'blockbuster' movie producers should get a copy of this book!
heh. tell them i'm available to consult on their movies (for a big fat paycheck!)
Heh, the Black Spider...
My group captured the little guy alive, and through some assorted shenanigans, the group eventually split into two parallel campaigns, and he ended up pardoned in Waterdeep and in a very... indentured position to the half of the party that went into the Dungeon of the Mad Mage. Right now, he's extremely aware of how short his life expectancy will be if he *doesn't* make every effort to keeping the party's warlock safe, because the two rogues trust him about as far as they can throw Castle Waterdeep. :D
As for houserules, I find that Chesterton's Fence is a solid guideline for whether or not you should change a rule - if you can't see why the extant rule is there, if you can't figure out the rationale of why they did it, don't touch it, there may be a weird interaction you've overlooked. Hold off on changing it until you can assess what else gets messed up by it.
Ahh, interesting! The black spider is a pretty boring villain on his own. Needs a lot of work
@@wizardsling Friend of mine is planning to run Phandelver, and she's replacing the Black Spider entirely, with a tabaxi Mastermind rogue...
The Napoleon of Crime, if you will, and his two tabaxi catburglar henchmen *will* sneak into the party's room and search through their stuff when they're out. ;)
The more and more I research 4E the more and more I like it. I feel like it unfairly gets a bad rep.
agreed!
Matt Colville has a good video where he touches on why 4E is so reviled even though it is actually a good game with a lot of very good aspects.
@@Mothsaam thanks I'll have to check it out. I do remember hearing about WotC doing an OGL thing with 4E that also turned people off. Part of me wants to track down the core books for 4E and give it a try. I'm sure I can find them second hand. I'll at least try to track down the DMG.
It came too early. Back in the day people liked to play role playing games.
Now table top video game sims like ICRPG and EZ D6 are all the rage. Who would have thought.
It has a HORRID rep, which is a tragedy because it’s a good game. It just isn’t d&d, it is the tabletop version of an MMO.
My group is dropping 5E altogether for 4E. It got terrible, undeserved bad press, but I had no idea how elegant and well-designed it really is.
cool! let us know how it goes!
Same here - I'm preparing my group to adopt 4e.
My post-apocalyptic fantasy setting Ashen Frontiers, for Pathfinder and 5e) draws heavily on 4e. For example, there's only one type of roll, the check (attacks are just checks with the Melee or Ranged skill). That means no saving throws. There are four Defences (Armour, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will) instead. And lots more.
For real. It was actually balanced and designed for gameplay which makes it easier for DMs. 5e has no idea what it's doing in this regard which is why homebrew and 3rd party content is so necessary.
4e is perfectly fine - the trouble is that it isn’t d&d. It’s a TTRPG version of an MMO.
The player types from 4e are basically the MDA Framework.
everybody steals, eh?
@@wizardsling it's a good tool to be sure
I really liked this video, but felt misled and kinda duped by the title. I was thinking more like “Hey, here’s a Combat rule that 5e removed but is actually really cool!” but this was more theoretical and abstract than just “rules”. I would’ve probably called this “7 *DM tips* to steal from 4e” personally. That’s not to say I didn’t love this though-thank you for the video and information!
Thanks for the comment!
Finally some love of 4e!
heh I do what I can...
Great video. I did not know I needed to see this!
Glad it was helpful!
Explorer: (Me: I'm interested to hear this one, That name sounds like it fits some of my players!) "I missed this one out" DANGIT :p
ALSO, 3:57: this image is a callout, how dare :p
Great video though :D Very useful tips, might have to track down a copy of the 4E DMG.
Thanks! Good luck tracking down a copy, hope you find it useful
I know it's popular to dunk on 4th edition but really the Dungeon Masters guide is a great book to
reference
agreed!
My 5e party fear Owlbear as they know I'm using Pf2e Owlbear and they had an encounter which they choose to flee from.
I use a lot of custom rules and monitoring the players reaction to see if they like the rule or if I should drop it.
Nice! Thanks for sharing
I suggest the 4e DM for every Game Master of any system. It's a great RPG resource.
true!
Great vid, with great suggestions!
Glad it was helpful!
good advice on getting back to the basics with some of the older edition books. I have a few laying around. I should really look at those books again.
You should!
I am 47 yo. I bought/played 4e when it came out then shelved it for PF1 and then 5e. I moved and started a new group but soon got "discouraged" with 5e and WotC nonsense. Decided to introduce group to 4e, never went back! 4e is massive underrated....give it a simple and tailor-made vtt......game changer! Love it!
@@robertlewis4769 thats great to hear. Where I live its really hard to get people to play 4e.
I think now with all the naterial out it is really a great edition
4e literally just needs a new name and some new IP and it'd be a hit game
Yeah maybe so!
Especially now with all the content released!
With the essential classes you also have some easy to play classes (the later essential ones are even interesting while keeping a bit simpler).
Releasing a new core book with 4 complex and 4 simpler classes would be really good start. Especially with the lots of new rp things added later (better skill challenges in dmg 2, skill powers,character themes, better skill check math)
Honestly 4e was a very well designed game. It's main issue was that it was a poorly designed dnd game. While I stuck with 3.5, I had picked up and used things from the core books
Good point! 4e had a lot to offer
I would say the main issue was that the early adventures were mostly quite bad. The later ones are a lot better, but since there was no 3rd party support (thanks to really shitty license), there is not much content in modules in general.
I really enjoy 4th edition i enjoyed running and playing but was hard to teach to new people
5e is very user friendly, one of my favorite things about it
I had played every version from BECMI through 3.5. I bought the 4e core books but never had a group to play with. I had always played using theater of the mind, and when 4e made the use of minis and grid maps mandatory that was a big turn off. It felt like they were trying to sell a bunch of accessories.
Additionally, a lot of the terminology they used and mechanics that they adopted really felt like they were trying to ape the combat mechanics of WoW or other MMO’s.
Like I said, I never played, but the way they broke the classes down into power type and combat role felt clever but also restricting. I know that most of the time classes take on the same rolls in most combats, but it just seemed to be emphasized in the 4e core books…
Thanks for the feedback!
I think 4e was just more honest about this than other editions. And thid also helped to create a bigger variety in the roles. You cant just have a cleric as a healer or a fighter as a tank.
You still have quite q bit of customization and most classes have a secondary role in which you can go more into than not.
And the "it looks like an mmo" is often heqrd but mainly by p3ople who did not play 4e or no mmo.
Yes it has cleqr structures, but so have mobas and still characters feel reqlly different.
And with skill powers etc. You can still do quite a lot of things.
Its a shame you never played especially now with all the released material it is a really good game. With lots of in and out of combat tools
@@tigriscallidus4477 I don't know if comparing it to a MOBA as vs an MMO is making the case that you want. (I've played both, and they can be great; they're just not what I want in my ttrpg.)
I didn't boycott 4e, I just moved twice during that era of the game, and never got a group together. I didn't even get a 5e group to play with until about 2 years ago, and we meet maybe every three weeks on average. So I keep seeing a lot of 4e pdf sales and thinking maybe I'll try it out, but frankly, I'm not swimming in ttrpg time.
5e actually has passive checks but no one ever uses them correctly. People only focus on passive perception for combat and that’s about it. Jeremey Crawford was on a podcast about D&D and one thing they talked about was passive skills, and Jeremy literally said how they’re supposed to be used.
PASSIVE CHECKS
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn’t involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Here’s how to determine a character’s total for a passive check:
10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check
If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.
For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14.
“Speaking truth to power” is a very specific phrase that comes from the civil rights/non-violence movement and while I liked this video, you should probably drop that from your intro
Thanks for that feedback!
Twas cringe - great content, though
Great video thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Gotta say with minions it's a really bad idea to let the martials do cleave damage through them. Yes, it's a drag for the fighter to spend 3 turns killing 12 minions that the wizard could pop with one fireball but that's the point, that's what minions bring to the table. They're control monsters designed to slow powerful single hitting characters down and force them to waste time and resources when they'd be better applying that powerful single target damage to a specific enemy.... just as it's (often) a waste to drop a fireball on a single target. They're not just about the ego boost on oneshotting creatures.... they're a tarpit that your aoe characters need to blow up before the one hit kill characters blunder into.
Interesting take! Thanks for the comment.
@@wizardsling I love minions in my DnD. As you said, 4e DMG had some gems.
Being from Oklahoma and then moving to Colorado is so cool. 🤠 👍🤜 Guess I'm the power gamer, slash and bash best. Kill with as much damage as possible. I'm North of Dallas? What part of Oklahoma are you from.
Hey I'm from Tulsa, moved to Denver during the summer when I was 27, just like the man in the John Denver song... felt like kismet. I've got family Dallas, been there many times!
Cool, been to Tulsa a couple of times. In Denison. Denver good. Is the Mexican restaurant with the live shoe still there. Casa something.
casa bonita! It was bought by Matt and Trey from south park. They renovated and are bringing it back!
@@wizardsling so it went out of business for a while. Does it still have high dive, the caves for the kids to go through. What about the flying W bbq and show. I heard they had a fire back in 2016 and had rebuilt.
no need to limit to 7, you can just play dnd 4
the last good edition
Thanks for the comment!
I'm such a good power gamer that are dm let all the other players roll for stats and made me use point buy. And I was Still more powerful than the rest of the party.
that's a badge of honor!
If anyone cares, I've got every book and Dragon Mag issue from 4e in PDF.
impressive! I wish Dragon mag was still around.
Skill challenges are the single best mechanic not in 5e.
I agree. With a little bit of adjustment, they work really well
@@wizardsling and if you wrap them into the narrative, you can use them to resolve travel and exploration sections in an entertaining way. I use the Coville method for skill challenges in 5e.
I also think the missing of the improved skill rating table and lqck of skill powers is a bit sad.
A skirmish game with a participation trophy mentality where every class gets an important role in combat, no matter how preposterous, because “balance”.
This desire for classes to be “balanced” feels like a throwback to the first iteration of the game, whereby players were competing against one another and characters were almost all Evil.
Now, in the 21st Century, it has been established that the best way to have healthy fun with ttrpgs is through COOPERATIVE STORYTELLING, which is something that D&D has NEVER been designed to facilitate.
fair enough
So Im an Actor, Instigator, Power Gamer, Storyteller, Thinker. Now what are you gonna do?
ha! No idea at all...
Replace you with someone who is simpler? ;)
Or... now hear me out... just play 4th edition!
thanks for the comment
@@wizardsling You are very welcome. Just doing my part to increase exposure. 🤪
Why 'steal' from 4e - better to play it as it's a near perfect system. Steal from other systems - I'm adopting Pathfinder's 2e beat DC by 10+ = crit rule.
I think some would disagree with you about 4e's "perfection." it's a lot more complex than 5e, a system now old enough that many TTRPG gamers have only known 5e and grown up with it. It's a big challenge to ask players only familiar with 5e to switch systems. But that doesn't mean 4e doesn't have some great mechanics that can be used and adapted... hence why I made my video ;)
@@wizardsling Certainly I'd concede 4e is more elaborate than 5e, but I find it actually simpler because all the classes are constructed around a single design philosophy. 5e we abandoned because of flaws in the encounter building (the math is broken - note building encounters in 4e is loads simpler). Also the action economy is deeply flawed (the specificity requirement for the bonus action). Is there anything I'd borrow from 5e for a 4e campaign? Hmmm.
I loathe skill challenges.
that's a shame. when I run them they're fun.
When you run them badly, they’re the worst - when you run them great, they’re cinematic as hell
Rule 1: Dnd4e. Just play it. It is just better.
not everyone likes how overly tactical it is.