I know it's been four years since you posted this video but THANK YOU!!! I'm a 57 year old man who just started learning how to cross country ski and bought my first skis, poles and boots about four weeks ago. The store recommended a great set of skis, etc. and I have been watching TH-cam videos to better understand some of what they were telling me to think about when considering what skis, boots etc. to buy.
The squeek sound using a 75mm 3-pin 4:10 is real with some boot/binding combinations. It can drive you nuts, especially if you are having a grumpy day. Eventually, the boot sole wears and it becomes less of a problem. In the meantime, you can apply some ski wax to the binding and/or the boot to reduce or eliminate the squeek.
The biggest difference between the old NN and the new NNN BC has to do with where the flex is initiate: on the new NNN BC the boot "hinges" on the bar and so the boot itself doesn't flex much when initiating a turn. With the old NN (3-pin) all of the flexure is initiated within the boot around the location of the balls of one's toes. This difference isn't very noticeable while touring, but makes for a HUGE difference when performing telemark turns where the toe feel and boot flexure are critical.
@@opuntina I’m an intermediate telemarker and the biggest improvement I’ve found in gear is going to a more “active” binding- one that offers more resistance as you drop your back knee. This helps drive the front of the back ski into the snow and improves edge grip. That just doesn’t happen on my nnnbc setup as David points out. The little rubber bumper in front of the boot is nowhere near as stiff as a tele-specific binding/boot setup. Those are actually stiff enough to prevent good Nordic use, so a lot of bindings come with a switchable “tour mode” that lets things pivot at the front and give you enough range of motion for the diagonal stride.
I think I now have 10 set ups mounted with 3pin. Never going back. Thanks Tom, I have learned and enjoyed much from your vids. Paul in the Adirondacks.
3 pins have sure stood the test of time. Winter is just around the corner and that makes me smile. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you have a great ski season.
A little PFTE dry spray gets rid of squeak on the 3 pin. Still prefer 3 pin for long term durability, field repairability, and reliability. Glad you’re making videos about this - the art shan’t be lost!
Great videos! We’ve got to get you into a BCX6 - I think people may slightly get the wrong idea here. You definitely say it - get a stiffer boot, but don’t show it on nnnbc. BCX6 while certainly not a plastic telemark boot is much laterally stiffer than the 5. Some reviewers have even said more than Alpina Alaska which surprised me. Also good around a snow camp at night and can take basic crampons for some additional exploring. Very flexible in use for the winter explorer. Warmer and very different than the flexy 5. As you said 5 is best for rolling hills and foot flex for glide and if you aren’t walking in deep snow for 30 min at a time. I am able to get pretty good glide with the 6’s, but of course not like a groomed xc kit. Thanks again for all the great videos!
Julie is skiing the BCX6' s on a set of Fischer Excursion 88's and is very happy with them. She says they are warm and she scoots right along with them on a snowmobile track.
I haven't been on skis in almost ten years, but I spend 7 years of my childhood on them. I always assumed the 3 pin was old and going to be replaced by something by now. I always hated them and envied people who ran the newer binding. Mostly because they looked so easy to clip in and out, and I hated getting a pad of packed snow between the ball of my foot and the binding. Also the 3 pin put a bunch of pressure on the toe box when bending it seemed to me. And sometimes I would miss the pins entirely and clamp the shoe in offset without realizing it. What can I say? I was a kid. Really fascinating that the old 3-pin can't be killed off by newer tech. Looking forward to finishing off the video. Thanks for sharing!
Rottefella has been working on a new off trail binding the past few years and it looks like they will release it next fall. I've seen photos of the binding but some of the details are still lacking. I think they are going to officially announce it at ISPO next month. Thanks for tuning in and I always enjoy hearing from viewers.
I think the killer for me is that I can’t find plastic boots with NNNBC For me it seems like I’ll have two setups by the end of next season: Traverse 78, NNNBC, Fischer BCX5 Leather Boot This will be my everyday out the back door ski, turns great in dry conditions, I’ve been practicing my tele and BC ski techniques on this setup. SBound 98 (or larger) with a Voile Switchback Binding, Scarpa T4 This will be the ski I use to summit and descend packed hiking and skiing trails that access Resort side and back country here in VT... 10+ mile days with confined trails and steep +10% grades I’ll also do the Catamount trail on these skis Thanks for all your videos Tom!
Thanks for the feedback. I've been enjoying the Alfa Skarvet NNNBC boots this season on my Traverse 78's and I'm still breaking in a set of Alfa Greenland 75 mm boots on my S-Bound 98's. All great fun. Thanks for watching, and let us know what setup you end up with for backside skiing.
I have a similar setup: T4, Voile (the one with the removable spring) binding, and Madshus Annum. Actually I bought the skis in VT. I often wish/wonder what the same ski with NNN-BC would be like. NNN-BC is just so much nicer for touring. Northern Rockies powder is pretty forgiving. I'm pretty impressed with how you can turn a NNN-BC setup in the right conditions.
What I like about the 75mm system is that it's simple and robust. For multi-day trips where safety depends on your skis, I don't feel comfortable with the NNN bindings.
@@newttella1043 The hole pattern and width is the same, but the bail on most of the older 3 pin bindings were designed for a thinner duckbill (15 to 17 mm). If you plan to use a plastic boot, you will probably need to upgrade the binding. Voile's 3 pin binding works well with both the Scarpa T4 and Scarpa T2. Check out this link www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=850
I chose NNN BC for my new XC BC set, because I wasn't able to find good 75 mm boots. Bought Crispi Svartisen boots, which are also made in 75mm, just not available. Alfa outback a/p/s has a perfect fit for me, but I don't like the integrated gaiter. It's also the sturdiest BC boot I've found. Svartisen feels like it would fit a wide range of different shape of feet. Still going to use Voile Switchback with a plastic boot for downhill oriented skiing. Now I'm just missing the set in between these boots, but I doubt I really need it. With couple of different types of skis with the NNN BC binding there's plenty of different types of terrain and conditions to enjoy.
I now use the 50 mm BC binding along with A stiffer pair of boots and find it’s a great upgrade. Replaces just about all the innovations from the past forty years. I use Alpina boots which are stiff like a good hiking boot.
That is a great combination for sure. Having a boot that fits well and offers enough flexibility for good kick and glide as well as enough stability for turn control is important. The ratio of flex verses stability will vary from person to person depending on the type of skiing they prefer. It sounds like the Alpina (I assume Alaska) is the perfect match for you. Thanks for providing feedback and for tuning in. I hope you have a great ski season.
Very old, usually found at ski swaps. I like how the cable helps steer the ski and how it forces me to apply pressure through the ball of my foot to the back ski. The NNN has a tendency to put my back foot on its toe. Which is less efficient and effective. I ski Rossignol, BCX11 boots they have 2 buckles that can be loose for kick and glide,tighten down foe turns.love them an Alpina ski that is full metal edges with a waxless pattern. And VERY SQEEK
Thanks for an excellent and unbiased analysis. I've got an old pair of cross country skis with the 3 pin bindings on them, and I'm playing with the idea of getting back into cross country skiing given that I live in rural northern BC. I'm thinking that these old 3 pins should be a pretty good choice for the kind of back country skiing on snow covered forest roads and trails away from groomed runs. Now if I can just find a pair of affordable boots in the right size!
I have been looking for an affordable 3 pin boot for some time, I'm thinking I may just have to make a pair with a little ingenuity. Thanks for the video glad to see the old style is still in favour.
Most winters, there are lots of used 3 pin boots for sale. You just have to be careful that the pin holes haven't been blown out and that the sole isn't so old that it has become brittle. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you have a great winter.
Hi Tom, I am one of those that decided to go against usual advice and buy 1 ski set, but then I am at my beginings so far so I guess I'm allowed.🙃 I wanted to know your view on my plan. I am a beginner crosskountry skier and I like to use the groomed tracks but also step off track and enjoy a bit of ungroomed terrain on rolling hils ) not very steep and not very deep snow. I have learned that I need more support in a boot and more control of the skis going downhill (be it groomer or nongroomed trail). I decided to go for Skis = Fisher Spider 62 with steel edges ) and pair them with NNN BC Rotefella Auto (56mm) Seems like this is less wider version of BC bindings exactly for this kind of skis? Shops in my country pair Spider 62 with Turnamic Control Step In IFP bindings but as I need more stability and control going downhil I'd prefer the Rotefella BC. Also I'm deciding between 2 kinds of boots : - Fisher OTX Adventure BC - perfect fit for flats, but I'm bit worried they will not provide enough ankle support for making turns - Fisher OTX Tour - perfect fit for turns and BC, but I worry these might be too stif for the groomed track? Thank you for any advice & thoughts on my reasoning.
Welcome to the channel. The Spider 62 fits in the multi-use category, narrow enough to fit in a groomed track but wider than most dedicated track skis. It also has a longer grip zone and metal edges that are useful for off trail skiing, so I think it would work well for your intended use. In regards to boots, Fischer probably has more models with confusing and similar nomenclature than just about any manufacturer, so I'm reluctant to offer specific advice on a boot model, as the last model I skied probably isn't anything like their newest model. If at all possible, go to a store where you can compare and try on the boots with a description that matches the kind of skiing you will be doing. I think you are wise in picking an NNNBC setup, especially if your track skiing is just for easy recreational fun. Would be racers should stay with the NNN system, but the NNNBC system is better suited for your dual use. Fit is very important. NNN BC boots typically offer more support than NNN boots, but that is not always the case. Check the boot for forward flex, and check for torsional stability by holding the toe in one hand and the heel in the other and twisting the sole. Off trail boots tend to be stiffer than track boots, with better ankle support. For your use, pick a boot with good fit and with medium stiffness and flex. At any rate, you are starting on a wonderful adventure. Best wishes, and I hope you have a great winter.
@@tomm9850 Thank you very much Tom ❤️👍 I really appreciate your insights. Im looking forward to more of your videos, each and every one is either beautiful or helful of both. Keep on keeping on. Wishing you health and all the best. Thank you once again
Excellent review and great comparisons. Like you, I am going to stick with the three pin, just because I have three different pairs of boot that are all three pin: light medium and heavy.
It will be interesting to see if the new Rottefella Xplore binding that will be available for the 2021/2022 season will be an improvement over what we currently have. www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3563
I do a lot of back country skiing with my alpine touring set ups ....Fritcshi bindings and my Marker Dukes I usually wear at work Scarpa AT boots , mid fat to fatter skis . But I want to get a free hill set up for shuffling around thru the woods on trails and off and drop some smaller hills . So I think Im liking the 3 pin bindings or at least a tele set up perhaps with out the pins ? .....I will be looking around on Craigs list for some skis and bindings and boots ....thanks for the video it cleared up some questions I had rattling around in my brain ....have a fun season !!
Thanks for the feedback. Lots of good information on freeheel skiing and XCD gear over on the Telemark Talk Forum. www.telemarktalk.com/viewforum.php?f=1 Have a great winter.
I agree with your assessment. I have Alpina Alaska boots, similar to the Alfa boots you have, with the NNN Magnum BC on S-Bound 88 skis. The only objection I have is the lack of a climbing bar. I’ve heard the Rottafella Xplore binding may address this. The synthetic boots, even with the “power cuffs”, are inadequate for offtrack touring, IMO.
Fantastic video for me as an snowboarder/skier, who hasn´t been out on a classic mountain ski tour in I´ll guess 10-15 years. And thinking about what to do with existing stuff or buying new things:) Thanks for the video! /Lukas, Northen Sweden
Drawbacks: 3-pin binding drags/creates friction as it interfaces the snow pack; especially when the ski is placed on an angle. NNN bc or general touring NNN have toe pieces and binding parts that can ice up and prevent engaging the boot and binding. This can be a bad situation if you are in deep powder or weak layers in the backcountry; unable to walk out if you can't get the ice removed from the binding or toe piece.
These are interesting observations, since I think I do a variety of skiing similar to yours. I went with a three pin setup for the reasons you mention, and also because it was cheaper. And I have a sense that the bar could rip out of a NNN boot, and you'd be completely stuck. With three pins, even if the boot holes are destroyed you can still clamp down on the duckbill and continue to function...especially if you have a cable. I'm not sure how likely the bar ripping out scenario is, compared with a duckbill breaking off entirely--either is probably pretty unlikely, but I do contemplate the possibility if I'm far from home in deep snow.
Good points. I would hope that the bar is securely embedded in the sole. I have put many miles and years on numerous skate boots using the NNN. NNNBC is even beefier than the standard NNN. In general, I think it is a pretty robust system. Hope I just didn't jinx myself. :)
I used guide and teach for years. I've skied down alpine runs many times on my skate skis with the nnn system. The boots and bindings have held up very well. As a guide, I switched out the three pin system with the nnn system. I've logged countless miles in the backcountry with zero issue. The three pin system has actually failed several times a season with guests. If not for duct tape, those tours would have been disastrous. I have not ever had the bar pull out. Of course, I don't use that system if I'm skiing more extreme terrain.
Amazing review, thank you! I didn't even know that there were more rigid NNNBC boots out there than the standard synthetic + ankle support boots. Also, makes a lot of sense: one ski, 3 boots, infinite applications. Now I just need to learn the tele turn ;)
Next winter there will be a 3rd option, the Rottefella Xplore binding / boot system th-cam.com/video/z87SF0nVm8o/w-d-xo.html www.fftv.no/rottefella-xplore th-cam.com/video/0LlVMGrUEcs/w-d-xo.html
How are the Alfa Skarvet Advance GTX boots you showed them clipped into the Rotifellas? I’m just wondering if you have any thoughts. I’ve worn the Alfa Skarvets in my living room and I prefer them to the Alpina Alaska and the Fischer BCX-5? Ithey just feel comfortable but really don’t know much about the Norwegian Alfa boots. They were around $350 from REI, so they aren’t cheap. I’m planning on skiing gentle hills off track in the western Sierras in California. I grew up using the three pin bindings strapped onto Lovett skis and I own Fisher SBound 98 with NNN BC. I wanted to stay with a single ski quiver, for now.
Check out my recent review th-cam.com/video/HrPenxR9eZ4/w-d-xo.html I'm using the boots with a set of Fischer Traverse 78's. The Skarvets would pair nicely with the 98's for the type of skiing you mentioned. They have the best combination of flex and ankle support of any NNNBC boot I have tried. I own a pair of 98's, but they are set up with a 3 pin, so I haven't skied my 98's with the Skarvets. As noted in the video, I have had some blister problems in the heels. I've been taping my heels for now and I hope the boots will break in as the season progresses. REI has one of the best return policies in the business, so there is little risk in giving them a try. The sizing seems to run a bit larger than other boots I've owned. Most of the time I ski a size 43 (Fischer, Rossignol) but for these, the 42's are a better fit. For a hiking shoe, I wear a size 10 (American). I like these boots and I'm going to do everything I can to make them work for me. If you try the Skarvets, post a followup so others will get a second perspective. I've created a playlist where I'll post my videos which relate to the Alfa Skarvets th-cam.com/play/PLSbEbRoGC_ho2vBkZ4nklbxh_CoJpR3Ok.html Thanks for watching and have a great ski season.
Thanks once again for this video, Tom. I was re-watching it again, and I came to a realization about how the "wider attachment point gives you more leverage" argument isn't true. I think drawing a free body diagram would help illustrate this, but since TH-cam doesn't make that easy, I'll explain it: By twisting one's foot and ankle, one puts a torque on the binding attachment point. That torque, if one were to imagine a boot that was hypothetically rigidly fixed at the toe, is limited only by the strength of the skier (and the ability of the skier to maintain that torque when rotating from the neutral position). So where does the binding come in? The width of the binding does not change the amount of torque the skier can put on it, and thus the ski. A longer lever arm - in other words, a wider binding - transfers the torque to the ski at a lower force, but over a larger distance. The torque remains unchanged. A narrower binding will transfer the same torque, just at a higher force and smaller distance. There are thus two ways in which the narrower binding could potentially be inferior: 1. The narrower binding, experiencing a larger force from the torque, could potentially elastically bend more when loaded. I think you demonstrate quite well what actually happens between the wide 75 mm and narrow NNN-BC binding bar: The 75 mm binding without cable has some play in it, while the NNN-BC binding does not. That play is so large that it dominates any elastic bending of either binding, with the end result that the NNN-BC binding actually feels stiffer than the 75 mm binding without cables, given an equal stiffness boot. Even if there is no play in the 75 mm binding interface, the actual amount of bending of one versus the other is not a simple hand calculation on the basis that "wider is better". It is in fact a complicated 3D modeling FEA problem based on all the different parts that fit together. It is probably easier to test and measure the difference (as you have more or less done) than to do the calculations. 2. The narrower NNN-BC binding, experiencing higher forces than the wider 75 mm binding, could potentially suffer from plastic deformation (bending failure) more easily, given equal loads. But my impression from others' reports is that NNN-BC seems to have very few outright failures, and while 75 mm bindings are reliable, failures do occur. Duckbills fail on a pretty consistent basis on many boots. To know which boot/binding system is stronger, we would need actual test-to-failure data to prove it one way or the other. Both overload failure and cycle failure would really interesting. It may be possible to stimulate the overload failures in a dynamic FEA program - but once again, it would be much easier to just run a test to find out. Of course, we run into the issue of boots, and boot stiffness. I don't see any empirical reason why stiffer plastic boots couldn't be made or used for NNN-BC, which would help remove boot play as a source of control loss. One could point out that the additional lateral boot and binding stiffness added by cables is a major advantage of the 75 mm binding, but I see no technical reason why cables and/or risers could not be designed into a more downhill-capable yet backwards compatible version of the NNN-BC binding. So I don't think we can say 75 mm actually is the intrinsically stiffer and stronger binding design. There just isn't any publicly available data - that I know of - to actually show that is true.
Fischer has a new boot this year, the Transnordic. It comes in a 75 mm and NNNBC version. I haven't seen one in the flesh, but it looks like a sturdy boot and should offer pretty good lateral control for XCD. I'm betting that the two boots would ski pretty much the same, until you add a cable or hardwire to the 75 mm option. I suspect that Fischer and others are looking closely at the new Xplore binding. Alpina is promising a new boot next year and hopefully we will see more boots like Alfa's Free. Only time will tell if Scarpa will release a new version of the T4 for 75 mm. I really appreciate you taking the time to write such a detailed comment. I'm sure many will find it informative and helpful. I hope you are having a great winter.
@@tomm9850 Thanks for the reply! I didn't know about the Transnordic. With the Alaska out of stock in my size pretty much everywhere, I might have to Czech it off my list and look for the Transnordic in NNN-BC instead. The xplore binding looks intriguing - if for no other reason than its apparent ease of use. It certainly has some technical advantages, with the wide pin mount width and lack of center ridges. It will be interesting to see how many boots come out for it, and how much market share it gains in the next few years. On the other hand, the unknown longevity and stiffness of the retractable pin design does make for some new and different points of play and potential failure. Seeing one report on the TT forums of a boot with a sticky pin certainly isn't a good look this early into the system. I'll eagerly wait for your (and others') reviews as the xplore gets out there in the wild! It'll probably be a while before the one XC shop here in Michigan that specializes in tele stocks it. And at $240/binding, it's more than twice as much as an NNN-BC binding, which certainly is something to consider. I would find it hard to justify picking a set up myself, as I'm currently a single binding household, with 4 sets of skis and 2 pairs of boots between my fiancé and I, all in NNN-BC. At the point I'm at with my skills (middling) and boots (pretty soft), I definitely feel like I'm not close to the limits of the binding interface yet, even on icy downhill runs at the local ski 'hill'. And alas, here in lower Michigan we barely get 4-8 weeks of skiable weather here on average - though it is a little more if you count manmade snow at the resorts. We have no high elevation to hold on to snow - the only answer is to go up north, but for the moment, they have less snow than we do! So we enjoy it while we can. Also, I thought of a good analogy for my point of how the "wider attachment point gives you more leverage" argument isn't true: Think of your foot as a ratchet wrench turning some sort of fastener (the ski). The binding attachment point is like the square drive of the ratchet! A wider binding - like a big 1" or 3/4" square drive - doesn't increase the torque transmitted compared to a narrow binding - like a 1/2" or 3/8" drive. The torque is the same, regardless of the drive size. The advantage of the bigger drive size - aka the wider binding - is that it twists less for a given torque, and that it can take a larger torque before breaking. But if you're torquing something to a relatively small value, the difference in stiffness is hardly noticeable, compared to any slop in the fit of the square drive (or the socket on the fastener). On a side note which may or may not have anything to do with this, Rottefella's introduction of the xplore binding comes at a convenient 20 years after the introduction of NNN-BC, when any patents on that system as released have expired and the risk of knock-offs coming on the market increases.
I've been watching your videos a lot to gain more knowledge about xc bc skiing. I use a mountaineering double boot (Koflach Degre) with some Northland backcountry skiis I found for free from a neighbor, teamed up with Voile Switchbacks and some black diamond kicker skins for a Frankenstein rig of an approach ski for ice climbs and winter camping in the BWCA here in MN. If you're looking for a challenge - do a test on XC BC skiis with mountaineering boots! I know a lot of the forums suggest using old Silvretta 404s and 500s - but Lonnie Dupre, a MN explorer uses homemade skiis and switchbacks with his mountaineering boots - so I had to give it a shot. Thanks again for all your help!
Fun to read about your setup. As you might guess, I've been at this a long time, and had a mountaineering setup back in the 70's with double mountaineering boots and silvretta cable bindings. They predated the 404's by several generations. I'm curious, did you have to modify the toe of either the boot or switchback to get a good match on the front? I really like the switchback bindings. They have stood the test of time and I highly recommend them.
@@joshuaborchardt2475 It sounds like you have a good workable setup. I had to look up the big baffin's on line as I was unfamiliar with them. They are very different from anything I have ever skied, certainly built for warmth. At any rate, thanks for checking in and posting about your experience with the switchbacks and mountaineering boots. The telemark talk forum also has a section for equipment resale www.telemarktalk.com/viewforum.php?f=4 but I expect that they should be an easy sale on Ebay. Keep your fingers crossed for snow.
Personally, I actually prefer the looser seating of the 3-pin. It encourages good stability muscle engagement, but allows more leeway to get up if you fall. I've seen a lot of NNN skiers need to unclip entirely to get out of a snowdrift; I've rarely ever seen the same of 3-pin skiers.
Hi Tom, any advice on what to do if you're out in the middle of nowhere on NNN BC and the bar rips out of the sole of the boot? That's my biggest fear. Not sure how I would get the boot to mate with the ski once that bar is gone (or something else in the binding breaks). A bunch of straps is about the only thing I can think of.
If the bar in the boot pulls out in the field and the snow is too deep and soft to walk back, then you will need to find a way to lash the boot to the ski. I always carry an emergency kit when I'm skiing off trail which includes some straps. th-cam.com/video/n1356GdlCnI/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/x5Du8eOVdog/w-d-xo.html
A heel riser is useful for long sustained uphill climbs and are common on backcountry AT and Telemark bindings. I think they work best with hard plastic boots and free pivot bindings. The NNNBC is best suited for skiing moderate terrain with XC focused skis, and I don't think that heel risers (wires) are really necessary for that type of skiing. The heel plate that Voile uses on their basic 3 pin binding will accept a heel wire and I have heard that a few people have substituted the NNNBC heel plate with the Voile plate so they could use a climbing wire with their NNNBC setups. You would have to contact Voile to see if they would sell you one.
Either binding would be fine on any off trail ski with a waist of 50 mm or more. In general, if the ski is classified as an off trail ski (most off trail skis have metal edges) either binding would work fine.
I plan to do a review of my new Alfa Skarvet NNNBC boots later this season. Check out th-cam.com/video/igES1tME4F4/w-d-xo.html at the 2:01 minute mark for a few easy turns with these boots on my Fischer Traverse 78's. Stay tuned. Also check out Gus Gusterfson's video th-cam.com/video/UCK2SYLILnA/w-d-xo.html and hiyokoD's th-cam.com/video/Tk1TLISK3tk/w-d-xo.html for some skilled XCD turns with NNNBC boots.
@@tomm9850 That's great seeing people make it look easy but being new to this arena, it makes me nervous. I'm looking at getting my first soft boot / free heal set up and I wonder if I ought to get something with wire compatibility to make the learning curve easier.
@@mitchellhall7382 What ski / boot combination are you leaning toward? I think that a stiffer boot with a more downhill oriented ski is more than adequate for most moderate terrain. Cables make difficult conditions a bit easier, but I rarely use mine with a soft boot. When the conditions are such that I need a cable with my soft boots, I usually wish I had brought my plastic boots instead. That being said, I'm pretty old school and mostly ski on 3 pin bindings with wider skis, when I know that there will be some great downhill runs. My NNNBC setup is used mainly for rolling terrain, not because of the binding or boot, but mainly due to the ski they are attached to. Once we get more snow to cover the logs, I will shoot some offtrail downhill skiing using the Traverse / NNNBC / Alfa Skarvets. Stay tuned.
@@mitchellhall7382 If you are going to be doing mostly lift service telemark skiing, get a stiff plastic or composite boot and rock solid bindings. weight and mobility are not big factors for lift-service Telemark skiing. You don't need nearly the mobility of back-country. If you are going back-country, most of your activity will be similar to classic cross-country skiing and you need a fairly mobile ankle or else your lower leg is going to chafe against the boot cuff and you will be miserable. With lots of skill, you can ski leather back-country boots and 3-pin bindings on lift-service mountains, but using lift service telemark-specific equipment to ski back-country is a miserable experience. MY OPINION is that for true back-country skiing, a well made leather boot and heavy-duty three-pin binding is still the best way to get you into the bush, down slopes, and back home with lots of fun and comfort in-between. A well-made all-leather boot can be a little more expensive than some composite boots but it is money well spent.
I’ve done long trips with an old timer, and he’s seen the bar rip out of NNN-BC boots, which could be serious. While 75mm can also fail, it’s easier to bodge a repair that can get you to safety
The 75 mm system is certainly robust and time tested. I read just about as many reports of sole separation on 75 mm soft boots as I have bar problems on NNNBC, so any boot can fail in the backcountry. It is always a good idea to carry an emergency repair kit, especially on remote long distance tours, just in case of boot or binding failure, so that one has the ability to limp to safety. Thanks for tuning in and for posting. I hope you are having a great ski season.
As far as I know, there are no current cross country bindings with the option to fix the heel to the ski. The Alpine Touring (AT) system is the modern version of an off trail binding that allows for a free heel for touring and a fixed heel for downhill skiing.
Very interesting, thanks, I was really wondering if the NNN BC was worth it compared to the 75mm, but I still wonder about the light "cable only" ones. I have found that a set of Riva paired with stout leather boots (like the Andrew Expedition or the Alico Double) is miles above any 3 pin binding as far as rigidity goes, so I am really curious to know how the NNN BC would compare. Shall we lament the loss of these "intermediate weight" telemark bindings (Riva 1-3, Z, Chili)? Or is the NNN BC system just as good?
There are lots of people who like the Riva cable bindings, and when combined with a stiff boot, make a great combination. There just aren't many stiff supportive boot options for NNNBC. I have seen people tele on NNNBC so it is possible with the right skill set and equipment.
@@tomm9850 Thank you. So, if I understand right, -NNN BC probably a better choice than 3 pin 75mm in gentle terrain (XC off the beaten track). --In steeper terrain or when skiing downhill matters, cabled 75mm offers better performance, in part due to the choice of shoes available. Sorry to keep bothering you with this, have you felt any difference in the usability of "cabled 3 pins" (like the traverse or Supertelemark) vs non pinned like the Riva?
For kick and glide tours on rolling terrain, I would prefer to ski NNNBC over 3 pin. I'm not a huge fan of skiing 3 pins with cables. The cables offer more downhill control, but I skied for decades without cables, so I rarely used them. Many disagree with me on the subject of cables, but I firmly believe that a good boot paired with the right skis is a better total ski experience (kick and glide, uphill, and downhill) without cables. th-cam.com/video/e4bkvJVNQG0/w-d-xo.html This year I've remounted all my 3 pin and NNNBC XC skis with the new Xplore binding, and I prefer the new Xplore system and boots to 3 pin and NNNBC setups when using soft boots. th-cam.com/video/OvbZnj_5TPY/w-d-xo.html
@@tomm9850 My apologies, I recently discovered your great channel, and these videos flew under my radar :) And indeed, the Xplore does seem very nice! Thanks!
So as someone wanting to get back into cross country skiing. Is there a reliable source for old 3 pin style boots? I've outgrown my boots but the skiis are still proper size. Amazon isn't an option and I'd rather deal with an actual ski shop.
They are still making leather 3 pin boots but they are harder to find. Alpina has the Alaska 75 and the TR Free, Fischer has the Transnordic 75, and I think that Crispi is still in the game. Alico has 3 models this year (2023) but I have no experience with them. us-store.altaiskis.com/product/new-in-2023-alico-3-pin-75-mm-ski-boots-3-models/ Lundhags has one model, the Guide Expedition 75 www.lundhags.com/en/footwear/women/ski-and-skate-boots/guide-expedition-75/ but it is another boot that I have no experience with. I don't know what the future holds but there are lots of people who love 75 mm 3 pin. There is usually a good supply of used boots on the aftermarket and you might even be able to find the same model and size of your current boot. Ebay always has a lot of listings, but you have to be careful as some are very old boots and if they haven't been stored properly, the leather and rubber could be brittle. REI still has a good supply of the Alpina Alaska 75 www.rei.com/product/124124/alpina-alaska-75-cross-country-ski-boots The Alpina Alaska is a pretty good off trail 75 mm XC boot and REI has a great return policy if the boot doesn't work out for you. If you can't find a 3 pin boot to your liking, you could have your skis mounted with a NNNBC binding. I'm glad to hear that you are going to get back on the trail and rekindle some fond memories. Best of luck and thanks for tuning in
So there's three different NNNBC bindings? NNBC Auto, NNBC Manual, and NNNBC Magnum? Are magum and manual both have levers and work in the same identical 'manual' fashion? Which one is better?
The magnums and the manuals operate in the same fashion and will work with all NNNBC boots. The Magnums have a wider base plate and a larger lever. From an esthetic standpoint, most people mount the Magnums on wide XC skis and the manuals on narrower skis. They pretty much ski the same, as they have the same flexor and toe bar attachment. I don't think I could tell the difference between the two in actual use. Some people claim that the wider base plate offers better steering control and that it is easier to open and close the binding with the larger front lever. The magnums are a bit heavier.
@tomm9850 I intend to BC XC ski in both east and west coast. Not sure I want to do any XCD yet, but if whatever binding system I buy has that capability, that's certainly a bonus. What do you recommend? I just got NNNBC boots but I can still return them if I want a different binding, such as 3 pin. 3 pin gives you a lot of different options, which is cool, but it's expensive. Supposedly there's some binding that's like a cross between 3 pin and NNNBC
@gremlin7599 NNNBC is a great system for off trail XC skiing. It is probably the most popular and will be relevant for a long time to come. Rottefella has a newer off trail system, Xplore, and I've been skiing it for a few years now. There is a lot to like about the Xplore system and I think it is the future, but it is more expensive and has fewer boot options. I still have one ski setup with 3 pins, but it is a downhill focused setup and I ski it with a stiff plastic telemark boot. Julie used to ski 3 pin but has skied NNN and NNNBC setups for many years and sees no reason to have a 3 pin setup or to switch to Xplore. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages and it mostly comes down to finding a boot that fits you, a ski that is designed for the type of skiing you enjoy and perfecting the skillset for your gear. Whichever system you pick, I know you will have lots of fun. th-cam.com/video/-vn443QHi7E/w-d-xo.html
@tomm9850 thanks so much! I originally was totally sold on NNNBC and was intending to buy that. Then I found out 3 pin is way heavier duty (allegedly) and of course it has a bunch of features that allow you to modify it. You can get rhe cables, the riser plates (not sure if that's the right jargon). I still pulled the trigger on a pair of NNNBC boots anyway though. Hopefully xplore doesn't come make NNNBC obsolete anytime soon, of course they have to shovel out some new stuff all the time to try to make more money. Good to know you like it though, I value your testimony. Thank you so much for your help again, we're very lucky to have your videos
Great video Tom, thanks. I’m currently skiing with the following set up: Rossy BC70 ski, Rossi Bx10 boots, and Rottafella nnnbc bindings. I want to turn it up a notch with hills…want to keep the skis and put 3-pin with cables with the Alpina Alaska boot. Do you think this will be better? Thanks again.
Your current setup is similar to what many would pick as an off trail XC ski for skiing forest service roads and kick and glide tours. Adding a stiffer boot would offer more downhill control, but if you are serious about stepping things up a notch in the downhill area, then I think you might want to consider a second set of skis / boots / bindings and keep your current setup for kick and glide tours, especially if your current boots are in good shape. This year I've been skiing the new Rottefella Xplore binding with both the Alaska XP and the Alfa Free Boots. I have 3 sets of skis with the Xplore binding (Discovery 80, Sbound 98, Voile Objective). I can mix and match boots and skis depending on the purpose of the tour. I think the Xplore system is the future for off trail Cross Country and for Cross Country Downhill on lightweight gear. Adding a 3 pin and 75 mm Alaska boots to your current skis would give you better downhill control over what you are currently skiing, but in the long run, I'm betting you would be happier with the Xplore system if you plan to ski soft boots. At this point, I'd probably only recommend a 3 pin cable binding for those who want to ski a hard plastic boot like the Scarpa T4 on a very wide downhill ski.
@@tomm9850 wow… Tom that was a very generous response, thank you very much. I will certainly take a look at the xplore system as you suggested. Are different boots needed or would the same ones that fit into an nnn system work? (80% of my skiing is exactly what you described above-in Southern Ontario. My goal is to plan one trip /season to some hillier eastern slopes like the Adirondacks- probably not enough for a whole new system. Thinking about next year already!!!
@@abnerlico The Xplore binding will require new boots. The Xplore system is new this year. NNNBC is a great system, but the Xplore system offers more downhill control without sacrificing any of the great kick and glide that NNNBC offers. The biggest downside is the cost. A 3 pin cable binding and Alaska 75 boots retail for around $400 and the Xplore binding and the Alaska XP boots retail for around $575. I've posted several videos testing and skiing the Xplore this season, so be sure to check them out. Right now there are only 4 boot options for the Xplore, but there will be at least two more boot options available next year.
@@tomm9850 (feel free to stop responding at any time you feel this is too much) Tom, I am old(ish) turning 57 this May. This was a good year of skiing for me and I probably went out 10 times; short season and snow-dependent (we had a great initial dump that kept it going). Suffice to say that skiing is not a huge part of my recreational life (I love it though!!). I just want to maintain the same sort of schedule BUT with that one special long weekend to the eastern US mountains. "Just rent' is the obvious answer... but I do like going up and down hills even here in flat southern ontario and want to get good at the tele-turn. So I am thinking the voile 3 pin(with cable - if it fits my ski) with the Alaska boot. (fyi I've just come back to xcountry @ 3 years ago). Anyway.... I have been watching all your videos. They are so great! Well done Tom! You have put a lot of effort into them.
Tom, or anybody, I just moved to Northeast Ohio last winter and I want try xc skiing next winter if we get enough snow here near Cleveland 😂. Have been looking in Facebook Market and I have found tons of good deals for skis with the NN 3 pin binding. Don’t want to spend crazy money until I actually try it. Are theses ok for beginners? I would be skiing in local golf courses or short groomed trails. Nothing crazy.
Buying used gear is probably the best way to get started. You can start with a minimal investment, learn the basics of cross country skiing and have lots of fun in the process. Used gear, especially very old gear, is readily available and doesn't hold its value so don't use new equipment prices as a measure of equitable prices. If you can find a "package deal" with boots, skis and poles that would be best. If you are buying the skis and boots from different sources, just keep in mind that there are several different boot / binding variations, and they are not interchangeable. Since you are planning to learn on golf courses and on groomed trails, be sure to pick up a narrow XC ski, as the wide offtrail XCD systems as shown in this video would not be the best choice for those conditions. I hope you find a great system and I guarantee you will have a blast.
Hard to say for sure without more information. Most people skied longer skis in past decades. I'm 5'8" @ 150 lbs and my waxible track skis are 205 cm long. Longer skis glide faster in the track but you need to be able to compress one ski when you have full your full weight on a single ski in order to get enough grip. Check out the section on this link regarding the paper test for camber. www.gearx.com/blog/knowledge/skiing/how-to-choose-cross-country-skiing-gear/
I don't think I've ever camped with an NNNBC setup. When I ski NNNBC, I do have problems with snow packing in the front bar pocket when I walk around in snow with the boots, but it is easily cleared with a key or a pole tip.
Thanks for the comparison. Well done. What are your thoughts on the Alpina Alaska NNN BC boot? Isn't that the heaviest Boot on the market? I like it but what are your thoughts?
The Alpina Alaska boots are very popular and receive lots of good praise on the Telemark Talk Forum. I've not had a chance to compare the NNNBC Alaskan's to my Alfa Skarvets. I did try on a pair of Alpina Alaska 75's last season when I was shopping for a replacement for my worn out Fischer BCX 675's, but I don't know how similar they are to the NNNBC version. I'm still evaluating the Skarvets, but I'm waiting for additional snow so I can ski them on more challenging terrain before I post a review. Alfa does make a beefier NNNBC boot, the Guard Advance GTX. It weighs more and offers additional ankle support. I've not seen them in person. If you are looking for an NNNBC boot that is beefier than the Skarvets, you might want to read this link www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2145&hilit=alfa+guard+advance
Thanks for the great videos! I’m getting back into xc skiing and am looking a ski/boot/binding combo that will work for cruizy backcountry tours and the occasional lift-served telemark session. I’m on the fence between NNN BC and good ol’ 3-pin. What do you think?
If you are planning on buying new gear for the 2021/2022 season, be sure to check out the new Rottefella Xplore binding / boot system. From what I've read, it could be just what many have been looking for. www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3563
Thanks for the great indepth video. Ive only done one 25mile trip on rented XC skis and I want to buy my own kit this year. Then I can do less resort skiing and more backcountry. It looks like neither binding is bad. I think Ill go for the 3pin as I want something utiltarian and low cost. There are a bunch of groomed trails near me and I was wondering if both types of bindings are capable for skate skiing?
The 3 pin and the NNN-BC bindings used on offtrail skis are not appropriate for skate skiing. I'd recommend using a dedicated skate ski / boot combination for skate skiing. Its OK to traditional ski on a groomed trail with an offtrail ski setup, but keep in mind that groomed tracks are usually less than 70 mm wide. If your skis are wider than that, you should ski outside the set tracks. Just for reference, most skate skis are less than 45 mm in width. Here is a link for some general information regarding skate ski equipment. www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/skate-skiing-gear.html
I got some vintage skis that have three-pin bindings, but they’re too pointed/tapered for the three-pin boots I have (the boots are more square-shaped like the ones in this video). Do you know if there’s a different style of three-pin boot with a tapered end?
The 75 mm 3 pin standard has been around longer than I have been skiing (1972) but I know that there were a few other pin bindings marketed over the years. It sounds like you have one of those unusual bindings. You won't be able to find any new boots that will fit those bindings. I don't know if you could find a vintage set of boots that match them on Ebay. If it were me, I'd remove the old binding and install a binding that matches your boot. (unless of course the skis/binding have some historic value and you are interested in preserving them) Check out this link if you are curious. acrossthesnowline.com/2020/02/19/pins-to-pivots-and-the-nightmare-of-the-90s/#:~:text=The%20original%2075mm%20three%2Dpin,disciplines%20in%20boots%20and%20bindings.
HiTom.Is the Voile 3pin Traverse better than 3 pin regular?The difference seems to be in heel raiser option.Does traverse give more control over regular 3 pin?Is whole the rest the same?Is it worth to investmore money? Best regards Jacek
In theory, the riser gives a longer moment arm, and all things being equal, more lateral power, but I can't tell any real difference between the two. I have the 3 pin cable on my 98's and the traverse on my objectives, so it is difficult to make a direct comparison. There are a couple of other things to consider. The riser plate on the traverse is a 4 screw attachment. Voile does not recommend using telemark bindings on their hyper series of skis because of pull out issues. I feel better about having a 4 screw connection on that ski, especially when skiing with plastic boots. I also appreciate the higher riser wire on the traverse when skinning for hours up steeper slopes. I'm not a big fan of the spring cable and rarely use it when skiing my 98's. I bought the Traverse for my Objectives hoping that I would be able to leave the cable attached to the binding, have the cable sit nicely below and behind the heel riser when skiing uphill, and then all I would need to do was clamp the cable to the boot for the downhill, but it can't be used in that fashion. The problem is that the clamp on the spring won't stay closed when not attached to the boot, so I carry the spring cables in the pack. It is a hassle to put the cables on and take them off as I don't like the feel of the spring cables for skiing on the uphill or flats. The Voile 3 pin hardwire doesn't have this limiation, but it is heavier and more costly. So if I had to do it over again, I think I'd opt for the Rottefella 3 pin for my 98's (because I rarely use the cable with this ski) and the Voile 3 pin hardwire for my Objectives. The Rottefella 3 pin is lighter and a good choice for leather boots. The Rottefella cannot be used with the thick duckbill on my Scarpa T2's. The Voile 3 pin hardwire would give me the option to leave the hardwire at home when skiing the objectives with leather boots, and the ability to leave the hardwire on the ski when skinning uphill with plastic boots.
Fair comparison, but that Voile binding was more suited for a real telemark boot. There are better 75mm bindings for that thinner 75mm toed boot - with a thinner opening that won't allow the amount of wiggle..
Yes I agree. The Rottefella 3 pin telemark binding is better suited for the thinner soled boots like the one shown in this video, and I skied that binding on a set of Fischer S-Bound 125's for several years. I haven't had the opportunity to test the newest Rottefella 3 pin binding, (the one with the heel spring attachment), but it might be a good choice. The bail on my older Rottefella 3 pins (circa 2005) would not clamp down on the Scarpa T4 or T2 boots, and that is why I changed to the Voile 3 pin.
I haven't experienced ice on the bar while skiing, but snow can pack into the pocket on the toe of the boot when walking from the car to the trailhead or if you take your skis off and walk around in the snow during a tour. Most people use their car key or similar tool to poke the snow out of the pocket and it is possible to remove the snow with the tip of the ski pole with a little balancing act. I've also read a few comments where people complain about ice issues with the automatic (step in) NNN and NNNBC bindings, but I've never experienced that myself.
Everybody has their own opinion about bindings. My opinion and that of my friends is that the 75mm 3-pin is much more stable and rigid than the NNN BC. The lateral play that it shown here at 4:40 is because the sole of that boot is too soft. A standard thick Vibram sole will not give that much play and will be much more supportive.
I agree, the boot is the biggest factor. A little lateral play can be expected because there has to be some space between the "wings" of the 3 pin binding and the edge of the boot. A cable / 3 pin setup or a plastic boot / 3 pin setup offers more control than what can be achieved with NNNBC. Its been my experience that given a similar boot (NNNBC or 75 mm), there really isn't much difference between the two. As you might expect, I'm pretty old school, and I ski the 3 pin on two different sets of skis. Just for fun, I went for a ski using an NNNBC system on one foot and the 3 pin on another foot, using boots of similar design and capabilities, and discuss my thoughts in this video th-cam.com/video/PgOkanEdt28/w-d-xo.html
@@tomm9850 HAAA! Tom, I have never tried skiing with two different boots at the same time! I bow to your advanced experience having performed the ultimate test. Good thinking. Good show.
The Magnum has a wider foot plate with the idea that it offers a bit more lateral control and better steering. I don't think it makes a huge difference. If I had a set of skis that already had the standard NNNBC mounted, I don't think it would be worth the time and effort to replace the standard binding with the Magnum. For a new mount, I'd probably choose the Magnum for off trail skiing. On the other hand, I'd pick the standard binding for a narrow ski, especially if it might be used upon occasion for a groomed track.
@ Yes, I think that it is more like a telemark setup though. Because once you add the heal riser and the cable it looks more like what a telemark binding is.
I think there is somethings to put into consideration to be really fair: -The Rossi BCX doesn't compare well to the Alfa Skarvet; -The Voile 3pc has a wider space under the bail; with a Rossi BCX-which has a thinner duckbill (than say norwegian welt boot) fits in more loosely. But you could always click in the third position... your demonstration would have been different. And you could have used a Rottefella ST binding which keeps that kind of boot and sole (thermoglued) more tightly in place...
All valid points. I used the Rossi Super Tele 3 pin for a number of years, but switched to the Voile 3 pin when I started using the Scarpa T4. The toe on the Scarpa T4 was too thick for the Rossi binding. I have and use both the NNN-BC and 75 mm binding. They are both good systems, each with their own benefits and weakness. If you haven't already, check out my Alfa Greenland boot review where I ski the NNN-BC on one foot and the 75 mm 3pin on the other foot as a simple comparison. th-cam.com/video/PgOkanEdt28/w-d-xo.html Thanks for you feedback and I hope you have a great ski season.
This video is 4 years old. I'm being told by ski shops that "nobody makes 3-pin boots anymore". I know this isn't technically true, since I've found a few, but it's possible that choices are becoming limited. I'm just getting into xc skiing so I'm doing some "research" before I decide, but I'm leaning towards NNNBC...
I don't think they have stopped making leather 3 pin boots, but there are fewer choices. Alfa and Rossignol have moved away from 75 mm but Alpina still has the Alaska 75 and the TR Free, Fischer has the Transnordic 75, and I think that Crispi is still in the game. I don't know what the future holds but there are lots of people who love 75 mm and there should be a good supply of used boots on the aftermarket for some time to come. The big advantage of 75 mm is that it supports cable, hardwire and burley plastic boots. NNNBC is a great choice for off trail XC skiing and if you don't intend to use one of the burley downhill setups, it is probably the better choice.
@agalligani I forgot to mention Alico. I have not skied their boots, but they have 3 models this year (2023). us-store.altaiskis.com/product/new-in-2023-alico-3-pin-75-mm-ski-boots-3-models/, and Lundhags has one model, the Guide Expedition 75 www.lundhags.com/en/footwear/women/ski-and-skate-boots/guide-expedition-75/ I also wanted to point out that many of these boot models are available in both a NNNBC and a 75 mm option. They are basically the same upper boot with a different sole. The two different versions will ski a bit differently but would be more similar than different in their capabilities.
@@tomm9850 yeah that's pretty much where I'm at. The ski shop I went to had the Alpinas but they were so damn narrow an 11 (45) didn't fit my foot. There weren't enough 3 pin boots in general for there to be one that fit my feet. So I threw in the towel and got BC boots, which is possibly for the best anyway as I'm probably not gonna do much back country. I don't want a big hard plastic boot either. I don't understand why there's no method to lockdown the BC boot if desired... maybe that's something the industry should think about.
@@agalligani I'm sure you will be happy with NNNBC. It is probably the best option for most people and currently has the biggest selection of boots to choose from. Thanks for tuning in and posting, and have a great ski season.
@@tomm9850 I've actually never cross country skied before but our local hill is pretending covid doesn't exist and I don't want to be in crowded lift lines. We have 2 pairs of 3 pin skis from the 80s; going to try to shop around for boots, but the 3 pins are getting harder to find. Where do you get yours?
The 3 pin boots that are available today are geared toward off trail skiing. They are heavy duty boots, can be a bit pricey and are best used on wider skis. REI currently carries 3 boots www.rei.com/c/cross-country-ski-boots?ir=category%3Across-country-ski-boots&r=c%3Bbinding-compatibility%3A75mm+3-pin In the 80's, some people were still skiing 3 pin setups on narrow skis with light duty boots for track skiing and gentle off trail. If you are looking for lighter weight boots, you might want to give Ebay or Craigs list a try. There are tons of used 3 pin "cross country boots" available on Ebay for under $50. If you decide to buy used, just be sure to check the pin holes on the bottom of the boot toe to make sure that they have not been "blown out" and that there are no cracks in the toe / hole area.
Why I won't buy NNN.... I have thrown away boxes of step in boots and bindings over the years. As a kid I had those red look or whatever brand bindings went obsolete. Then I had SNS profil and SNS pilot and then NNN apparently "won" the war. But it's hard to know what system will be around when. It comes time to replace your boots. Everytime a system gets revised your stuff goes obsolete and you end up scouring ebay for hours trying to find a new set of boots for your old binding then you breakdown and replace both. 75mm stuff just keeps on being available.
If you want to really improve the side to side motion on a 75mm boot. Spray sole with silicone. Mask ski put a big blob of jb weld on the heel plate. Use a big c clamp to clamp boot down. Once the jb weld cures to the heel plate remove clamp and lightly file corners of jb weld. Heel will be super locked in for lateral movement.
@@tomm9850 ya it works great only issue is if you use different boots. I'm going to try filling the threads on the boot with some putty next time to only have two ridges. Helps when side hill skiing as your boots down slip sideways in the glide.
Thank so much for the thorough analysis. Any thoughts on safety of three-pin system versus nnn-bc? Especially related to knee injuries. Am I right that the nnn-bc will release with enough torque?
The Magnum NNNBC binding does not have an official safety release mechanism. The bar on the boot is held in with spring steel and it might be possible for the boot to pull from the binding given enough force, but I've never had one release, and I don't know how much force it takes to pop the boot out of a closed binding. My wife's boots would occasionally pop out of her binding when skiing on the flats, if a snow ball formed under the toe of her boot. I've always considered that a flaw, not a safety feature. The topic of non releasable XC bindings and the potential for injury is controversial. Most XC skiers are comfortable skiing either the NNNBC or 3 pin bindings knowing that the skis will not release in a fall. It is not without risk however. I had a bad fall about 3 years ago and ended up with a very bad sprain. They do make some releasable plates that can be used with 3 pin bindings, but I have no experience with them. There has been some talk about a new binding for XC downhill skiing that will include a release feature, but it has yet to materialize. If you feel that releasable bindings are necessary for your backcountry downhill skiing, then you should probably skip the XC binding/ski route and look into an AT backcountry setup. Here is a link you might find an interesting read nmccskiclub.org/x-c-ski-injuries-and-ski-bindings/
NO for the new ski binding NNN. 3 pins is more practical: NNN difficult to put on , and often not connected when you thought it was. NNN looks nice on the workbench like in this video, but a pain to put on while on the trail outside in the snow. Unfortunately I cannot do anymore telemark with the new system NNN.
Good eye. The magnums have a wider plastic foot plate and weigh a little bit more than the NNN BC. There is also an auto (step in) version of the NNN BC. Thanks for adding to the discussion and for tuning in and I hope you have a great ski season.
Thanks for the great videos! I’m getting back into xc skiing and am looking a ski/boot/binding combo that will work for cruizy backcountry tours and the occasional lift-served telemark session. I’m on the fence between NNN BC and good ol’ 3-pin. What do you think?
Next fall there will be a 3rd option, the Rottefella Xplore. The new binding / boot system looks promising and may be just what you are looking for. The NNNBC and 3 pin systems are very different, but both work well for off trail XC skiing. For most people, I'd recommend the NNN BC for cruizy off trail, but as soon as you mentioned lift served, then the needle swings toward the 3 pin. The 3 pin is a better choice for lift served because it is easier to ski downhill using a beefy boot and a cable / hardwire. You can have two sets of boots, a soft boot for "kick and glide" tours and a heavy stiff boot when "touring for turns",
@@tomm9850 thanks for the advice! I’m running NNN BC on a pair of Spider 62s and like them, but 3pin or cable was my go-to for ever. I like the feel of the NNN BC closer to my toe and thought it might help carve the teles. Like your videos! Us gray haired free heelers got to stick together!
The NNNBC on the Spider 62's is a great match and a good sturdy boot will help alot with the teles. I hope you have had a great winter and it is nice to know that there are others like myself out there having fun in the snow.
Tom I just want to say thank you for your videos. I am an intermediate skiier up in Alaska and you have been the Bob Ross of skiing for me..
You are so welcome. Bob Ross's painting were heavily influenced by his time in Alaska and I have many good memories of my time in Alaska as well.
I know it's been four years since you posted this video but THANK YOU!!! I'm a 57 year old man who just started learning how to cross country ski and bought my first skis, poles and boots about four weeks ago. The store recommended a great set of skis, etc. and I have been watching TH-cam videos to better understand some of what they were telling me to think about when considering what skis, boots etc. to buy.
Thats fantastic. You are in for an amazing journey. Take care, have fun, and be safe.
The squeek sound using a 75mm 3-pin 4:10 is real with some boot/binding combinations. It can drive you nuts, especially if you are having a grumpy day. Eventually, the boot sole wears and it becomes less of a problem. In the meantime, you can apply some ski wax to the binding and/or the boot to reduce or eliminate the squeek.
Wow!! Thank you so much for this in depth analysis, so objective!! That's even more than what I was looking for, you made me save so much time! Yay!
I'm glad that you found the video useful. Thanks for watching and I hope you are having a great ski season.
The biggest difference between the old NN and the new NNN BC has to do with where the flex is initiate: on the new NNN BC the boot "hinges" on the bar and so the boot itself doesn't flex much when initiating a turn. With the old NN (3-pin) all of the flexure is initiated within the boot around the location of the balls of one's toes. This difference isn't very noticeable while touring, but makes for a HUGE difference when performing telemark turns where the toe feel and boot flexure are critical.
Well said.
Which style is better for a tele turn? I'd assume the 75mm as it's what seems to be on teleboots.
@@opuntina I’m an intermediate telemarker and the biggest improvement I’ve found in gear is going to a more “active” binding- one that offers more resistance as you drop your back knee. This helps drive the front of the back ski into the snow and improves edge grip. That just doesn’t happen on my nnnbc setup as David points out. The little rubber bumper in front of the boot is nowhere near as stiff as a tele-specific binding/boot setup. Those are actually stiff enough to prevent good Nordic use, so a lot of bindings come with a switchable “tour mode” that lets things pivot at the front and give you enough range of motion for the diagonal stride.
I think I now have 10 set ups mounted with 3pin. Never going back. Thanks Tom, I have learned and enjoyed much from your vids. Paul in the Adirondacks.
3 pins have sure stood the test of time. Winter is just around the corner and that makes me smile. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you have a great ski season.
Excellent stuff Tom.
Wonderful to watch and listen to an objective and reasonable comparison.
A little PFTE dry spray gets rid of squeak on the 3 pin. Still prefer 3 pin for long term durability, field repairability, and reliability. Glad you’re making videos about this - the art shan’t be lost!
Thanks for the tip. I'll have to give it a try.
I love your videos Tom. You've taught me a lot Been XC BC for about 5 years, and started skate skiing 2 years ago. Thank you
That warms my soul. Thanks for watching and providing feedback. I hope you have great snow this winter.
Great videos! We’ve got to get you into a BCX6 - I think people may slightly get the wrong idea here. You definitely say it - get a stiffer boot, but don’t show it on nnnbc. BCX6 while certainly not a plastic telemark boot is much laterally stiffer than the 5. Some reviewers have even said more than Alpina Alaska which surprised me. Also good around a snow camp at night and can take basic crampons for some additional exploring. Very flexible in use for the winter explorer. Warmer and very different than the flexy 5. As you said 5 is best for rolling hills and foot flex for glide and if you aren’t walking in deep snow for 30 min at a time. I am able to get pretty good glide with the 6’s, but of course not like a groomed xc kit. Thanks again for all the great videos!
Ah, I see you use the bcx 675 three pin, I believe it is same boot with nnnbc front. Maybe with the pin pivot it won’t crease/crack in the front?
Julie is skiing the BCX6' s on a set of Fischer Excursion 88's and is very happy with them. She says they are warm and she scoots right along with them on a snowmobile track.
I haven't been on skis in almost ten years, but I spend 7 years of my childhood on them. I always assumed the 3 pin was old and going to be replaced by something by now. I always hated them and envied people who ran the newer binding. Mostly because they looked so easy to clip in and out, and I hated getting a pad of packed snow between the ball of my foot and the binding. Also the 3 pin put a bunch of pressure on the toe box when bending it seemed to me. And sometimes I would miss the pins entirely and clamp the shoe in offset without realizing it. What can I say? I was a kid. Really fascinating that the old 3-pin can't be killed off by newer tech. Looking forward to finishing off the video. Thanks for sharing!
Rottefella has been working on a new off trail binding the past few years and it looks like they will release it next fall. I've seen photos of the binding but some of the details are still lacking. I think they are going to officially announce it at ISPO next month. Thanks for tuning in and I always enjoy hearing from viewers.
@@tomm9850 When it's hard to run into new people in these times, thoughtful TH-cam comments go a long way! Thanks for responding.
Hi Tom, Looking forward to see the snow arrive and some new videos. Hope you had a good summer.
New Brunswick Canada 🇨🇦
We are looking forward to winter as well. It won't be long now. Thanks for tuning in.
I think the killer for me is that I can’t find plastic boots with NNNBC
For me it seems like I’ll have two setups by the end of next season:
Traverse 78, NNNBC, Fischer BCX5 Leather Boot
This will be my everyday out the back door ski, turns great in dry conditions, I’ve been practicing my tele and BC ski techniques on this setup.
SBound 98 (or larger) with a Voile Switchback Binding, Scarpa T4
This will be the ski I use to summit and descend packed hiking and skiing trails that access Resort side and back country here in VT... 10+ mile days with confined trails and steep +10% grades
I’ll also do the Catamount trail on these skis
Thanks for all your videos Tom!
Thanks for the feedback. I've been enjoying the Alfa Skarvet NNNBC boots this season on my Traverse 78's and I'm still breaking in a set of Alfa Greenland 75 mm boots on my S-Bound 98's. All great fun. Thanks for watching, and let us know what setup you end up with for backside skiing.
I have a similar setup: T4, Voile (the one with the removable spring) binding, and Madshus Annum. Actually I bought the skis in VT. I often wish/wonder what the same ski with NNN-BC would be like. NNN-BC is just so much nicer for touring. Northern Rockies powder is pretty forgiving. I'm pretty impressed with how you can turn a NNN-BC setup in the right conditions.
What I like about the 75mm system is that it's simple and robust. For multi-day trips where safety depends on your skis, I don't feel comfortable with the NNN bindings.
Got the Voile 3 Pin Mountaineers and some scarpa boots for my first tele setup, excited to try it out
It will be a lot of fun. Hope you have a great winter.
Can the Scarpa hard shell 3 pin boots be used with the old fashion 3 pin xc bindings, like those from the 70s and 80s?
@@newttella1043 The hole pattern and width is the same, but the bail on most of the older 3 pin bindings were designed for a thinner duckbill (15 to 17 mm). If you plan to use a plastic boot, you will probably need to upgrade the binding. Voile's 3 pin binding works well with both the Scarpa T4 and Scarpa T2. Check out this link www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=850
@@tomm9850 Thanks so much for the info. That helps a lot.
I chose NNN BC for my new XC BC set, because I wasn't able to find good 75 mm boots. Bought Crispi Svartisen boots, which are also made in 75mm, just not available. Alfa outback a/p/s has a perfect fit for me, but I don't like the integrated gaiter. It's also the sturdiest BC boot I've found. Svartisen feels like it would fit a wide range of different shape of feet. Still going to use Voile Switchback with a plastic boot for downhill oriented skiing. Now I'm just missing the set in between these boots, but I doubt I really need it. With couple of different types of skis with the NNN BC binding there's plenty of different types of terrain and conditions to enjoy.
It is good to hear that you found a good fitting boot. That is half the battle. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are having a great season.
What's the issue with gaiters on Alfa Outback?
Seems like an advantage in deep snow and severe cold.
I now use the 50 mm BC binding along with A stiffer pair of boots and find it’s a great upgrade. Replaces just about all the innovations from the past forty years.
I use Alpina boots which are stiff like a good hiking boot.
That is a great combination for sure. Having a boot that fits well and offers enough flexibility for good kick and glide as well as enough stability for turn control is important. The ratio of flex verses stability will vary from person to person depending on the type of skiing they prefer. It sounds like the Alpina (I assume Alaska) is the perfect match for you. Thanks for providing feedback and for tuning in. I hope you have a great ski season.
Thank you for a wonderful video! My husband and I are completely new to skiing and your video was very informative. It's so much to learn. :- )
Glad it was helpful. I'm sure you will have lots of fun in this sport. Take care and have a great winter.
@@tomm9850 It was very helpful! Thank you! :-)
I ski on a cable binding. Reva 2. The cables real help when doing any turn trchnic.
The Rottefella Riva II and the Black Diamond Riva II are oldies but goodies. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are having a great ski season.
Very old, usually found at ski swaps. I like how the cable helps steer the ski and how it forces me to apply pressure through the ball of my foot to the back ski. The NNN has a tendency to put my back foot on its toe. Which is less efficient and effective. I ski Rossignol, BCX11 boots they have 2 buckles that can be loose for kick and glide,tighten down foe turns.love them an Alpina ski that is full metal edges with a waxless pattern. And VERY SQEEK
Thanks for an excellent and unbiased analysis. I've got an old pair of cross country skis with the 3 pin bindings on them, and I'm playing with the idea of getting back into cross country skiing given that I live in rural northern BC. I'm thinking that these old 3 pins should be a pretty good choice for the kind of back country skiing on snow covered forest roads and trails away from groomed runs. Now if I can just find a pair of affordable boots in the right size!
I hope you find a good pair of boots and put those skis to good use. Have fun and let us know how it goes.
Very helpful. Looking to get into cross country skiing as didn't realize there were so many variations. This video definitely helped.
Glad it was helpful!
I have been looking for an affordable 3 pin boot for some time, I'm thinking I may just have to make a pair with a little ingenuity. Thanks for the video glad to see the old style is still in favour.
Most winters, there are lots of used 3 pin boots for sale. You just have to be careful that the pin holes haven't been blown out and that the sole isn't so old that it has become brittle. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you have a great winter.
Hi Tom,
I am one of those that decided to go against usual advice and buy 1 ski set, but then I am at my beginings so far so I guess I'm allowed.🙃
I wanted to know your view on my plan.
I am a beginner crosskountry skier and I like to use the groomed tracks but also step off track and enjoy a bit of ungroomed terrain on rolling hils ) not very steep and not very deep snow.
I have learned that I need more support in a boot and more control of the skis going downhill (be it groomer or nongroomed trail).
I decided to go for Skis = Fisher Spider 62 with steel edges ) and pair them with NNN BC Rotefella Auto (56mm)
Seems like this is less wider version of BC bindings exactly for this kind of skis?
Shops in my country pair Spider 62 with Turnamic Control Step In IFP bindings but as I need more stability and control going downhil I'd prefer the Rotefella BC.
Also I'm deciding between 2 kinds of boots :
- Fisher OTX Adventure BC - perfect fit for flats, but I'm bit worried they will not provide enough ankle support for making turns
- Fisher OTX Tour - perfect fit for turns and BC, but I worry these might be too stif for the groomed track?
Thank you for any advice & thoughts on my reasoning.
Welcome to the channel. The Spider 62 fits in the multi-use category, narrow enough to fit in a groomed track but wider than most dedicated track skis. It also has a longer grip zone and metal edges that are useful for off trail skiing, so I think it would work well for your intended use. In regards to boots, Fischer probably has more models with confusing and similar nomenclature than just about any manufacturer, so I'm reluctant to offer specific advice on a boot model, as the last model I skied probably isn't anything like their newest model. If at all possible, go to a store where you can compare and try on the boots with a description that matches the kind of skiing you will be doing. I think you are wise in picking an NNNBC setup, especially if your track skiing is just for easy recreational fun. Would be racers should stay with the NNN system, but the NNNBC system is better suited for your dual use. Fit is very important. NNN BC boots typically offer more support than NNN boots, but that is not always the case. Check the boot for forward flex, and check for torsional stability by holding the toe in one hand and the heel in the other and twisting the sole. Off trail boots tend to be stiffer than track boots, with better ankle support. For your use, pick a boot with good fit and with medium stiffness and flex. At any rate, you are starting on a wonderful adventure. Best wishes, and I hope you have a great winter.
@@tomm9850 Thank you very much Tom ❤️👍 I really appreciate your insights. Im looking forward to more of your videos, each and every one is either beautiful or helful of both. Keep on keeping on. Wishing you health and all the best. Thank you once again
Great video. Looking forward to future ones. There is so much fun skiing to be had in this realm of equipment
Thanks for the feedback, and I agree.
So much experience here Tom. Just what I was looking fore. Remind people to subscribe!!! Your channel is great.
I appreciate the kind words. Hope you have a great ski season.
@@tomm9850 with your great videos...I can guarantee it.
Best tutorial I’ve seen on the subject 😊
Thanks Nate for the kind words and for tuning in. I hope you have a great ski season.
Super prezies gemachter Video.👍👌👍Herzlichen Dank. Liebe Grüsse aus der Schweiz😊
Danke fürs Einschalten und ich hoffe, Sie haben einen tollen Winter. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you are having a great winter.
Excellent review and great comparisons. Like you, I am going to stick with the three pin, just because I have three different pairs of boot that are all three pin: light medium and heavy.
It will be interesting to see if the new Rottefella Xplore binding that will be available for the 2021/2022 season will be an improvement over what we currently have. www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3563
@@tomm9850 It will, but I think this is a marketing failure: There are already far too many choices in this category, a very small category at that.
I do a lot of back country skiing with my alpine touring set ups ....Fritcshi bindings and my Marker Dukes I usually wear at work Scarpa AT boots , mid fat to fatter skis . But I want to get a free hill set up for shuffling around thru the woods on trails and off and drop some smaller hills . So I think Im liking the 3 pin bindings or at least a tele set up perhaps with out the pins ? .....I will be looking around on Craigs list for some skis and bindings and boots ....thanks for the video it cleared up some questions I had rattling around in my brain ....have a fun season !!
Thanks for the feedback. Lots of good information on freeheel skiing and XCD gear over on the Telemark Talk Forum. www.telemarktalk.com/viewforum.php?f=1
Have a great winter.
thank you Tom :) your videos are really helpfull and professional 👍
Glad it was helpful and thanks for tuning in.
very concise. this is the video to watch on this subject. theres probably a lot more nnnbc boots now though
I'm glad it was helpful. Thanks for tuning in and for posting feedback.
I agree with your assessment. I have Alpina Alaska boots, similar to the Alfa boots you have, with the NNN Magnum BC on S-Bound 88 skis. The only objection I have is the lack of a climbing bar. I’ve heard the Rottafella Xplore binding may address this. The synthetic boots, even with the “power cuffs”, are inadequate for offtrack touring, IMO.
Sounds like you are all set with your Alpina Alaskans. Thanks for tuning in and I hope you have a great ski season.
Fantastic video for me as an snowboarder/skier, who hasn´t been out on a classic mountain ski tour in I´ll guess 10-15 years. And thinking about what to do with existing stuff or buying new things:) Thanks for the video! /Lukas, Northen Sweden
Glad it was helpful. There is a rumor that there may be a 3rd boot / binding system next year, but I've heard that rumor many times before.
Drawbacks: 3-pin binding drags/creates friction as it interfaces the snow pack; especially when the ski is placed on an angle. NNN bc or general touring NNN have toe pieces and binding parts that can ice up and prevent engaging the boot and binding. This can be a bad situation if you are in deep powder or weak layers in the backcountry; unable to walk out if you can't get the ice removed from the binding or toe piece.
Thanks for adding to the discussion and for tuning in. It won't be long now as winter is on the horizon. :)
These are interesting observations, since I think I do a variety of skiing similar to yours. I went with a three pin setup for the reasons you mention, and also because it was cheaper. And I have a sense that the bar could rip out of a NNN boot, and you'd be completely stuck. With three pins, even if the boot holes are destroyed you can still clamp down on the duckbill and continue to function...especially if you have a cable. I'm not sure how likely the bar ripping out scenario is, compared with a duckbill breaking off entirely--either is probably pretty unlikely, but I do contemplate the possibility if I'm far from home in deep snow.
Good points. I would hope that the bar is securely embedded in the sole. I have put many miles and years on numerous skate boots using the NNN. NNNBC is even beefier than the standard NNN. In general, I think it is a pretty robust system. Hope I just didn't jinx myself. :)
I used guide and teach for years. I've skied down alpine runs many times on my skate skis with the nnn system. The boots and bindings have held up very well. As a guide, I switched out the three pin system with the nnn system. I've logged countless miles in the backcountry with zero issue. The three pin system has actually failed several times a season with guests. If not for duct tape, those tours would have been disastrous. I have not ever had the bar pull out. Of course, I don't use that system if I'm skiing more extreme terrain.
Amazing review, thank you! I didn't even know that there were more rigid NNNBC boots out there than the standard synthetic + ankle support boots.
Also, makes a lot of sense: one ski, 3 boots, infinite applications.
Now I just need to learn the tele turn ;)
Next winter there will be a 3rd option, the Rottefella Xplore binding / boot system
th-cam.com/video/z87SF0nVm8o/w-d-xo.html
www.fftv.no/rottefella-xplore
th-cam.com/video/0LlVMGrUEcs/w-d-xo.html
@@tomm9850 Yes I saw that! Looks very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
How are the Alfa Skarvet Advance GTX boots you showed them clipped into the Rotifellas? I’m just wondering if you have any thoughts. I’ve worn the Alfa Skarvets in my living room and I prefer them to the Alpina Alaska and the Fischer BCX-5? Ithey just feel comfortable but really don’t know much about the Norwegian Alfa boots. They were around $350 from REI, so they aren’t cheap. I’m planning on skiing gentle hills off track in the western Sierras in California.
I grew up using the three pin bindings strapped onto Lovett skis and I own Fisher SBound 98 with NNN BC. I wanted to stay with a single ski quiver, for now.
Check out my recent review
th-cam.com/video/HrPenxR9eZ4/w-d-xo.html
I'm using the boots with a set of Fischer Traverse 78's. The Skarvets would pair nicely with the 98's for the type of skiing you mentioned. They have the best combination of flex and ankle support of any NNNBC boot I have tried. I own a pair of 98's, but they are set up with a 3 pin, so I haven't skied my 98's with the Skarvets. As noted in the video, I have had some blister problems in the heels. I've been taping my heels for now and I hope the boots will break in as the season progresses. REI has one of the best return policies in the business, so there is little risk in giving them a try. The sizing seems to run a bit larger than other boots I've owned. Most of the time I ski a size 43 (Fischer, Rossignol) but for these, the 42's are a better fit. For a hiking shoe, I wear a size 10 (American). I like these boots and I'm going to do everything I can to make them work for me. If you try the Skarvets, post a followup so others will get a second perspective. I've created a playlist where I'll post my videos which relate to the Alfa Skarvets th-cam.com/play/PLSbEbRoGC_ho2vBkZ4nklbxh_CoJpR3Ok.html Thanks for watching and have a great ski season.
Thanks once again for this video, Tom.
I was re-watching it again, and I came to a realization about how the "wider attachment point gives you more leverage" argument isn't true. I think drawing a free body diagram would help illustrate this, but since TH-cam doesn't make that easy, I'll explain it:
By twisting one's foot and ankle, one puts a torque on the binding attachment point. That torque, if one were to imagine a boot that was hypothetically rigidly fixed at the toe, is limited only by the strength of the skier (and the ability of the skier to maintain that torque when rotating from the neutral position).
So where does the binding come in? The width of the binding does not change the amount of torque the skier can put on it, and thus the ski. A longer lever arm - in other words, a wider binding - transfers the torque to the ski at a lower force, but over a larger distance. The torque remains unchanged. A narrower binding will transfer the same torque, just at a higher force and smaller distance.
There are thus two ways in which the narrower binding could potentially be inferior:
1. The narrower binding, experiencing a larger force from the torque, could potentially elastically bend more when loaded. I think you demonstrate quite well what actually happens between the wide 75 mm and narrow NNN-BC binding bar: The 75 mm binding without cable has some play in it, while the NNN-BC binding does not. That play is so large that it dominates any elastic bending of either binding, with the end result that the NNN-BC binding actually feels stiffer than the 75 mm binding without cables, given an equal stiffness boot.
Even if there is no play in the 75 mm binding interface, the actual amount of bending of one versus the other is not a simple hand calculation on the basis that "wider is better". It is in fact a complicated 3D modeling FEA problem based on all the different parts that fit together. It is probably easier to test and measure the difference (as you have more or less done) than to do the calculations.
2. The narrower NNN-BC binding, experiencing higher forces than the wider 75 mm binding, could potentially suffer from plastic deformation (bending failure) more easily, given equal loads. But my impression from others' reports is that NNN-BC seems to have very few outright failures, and while 75 mm bindings are reliable, failures do occur. Duckbills fail on a pretty consistent basis on many boots. To know which boot/binding system is stronger, we would need actual test-to-failure data to prove it one way or the other. Both overload failure and cycle failure would really interesting. It may be possible to stimulate the overload failures in a dynamic FEA program - but once again, it would be much easier to just run a test to find out.
Of course, we run into the issue of boots, and boot stiffness. I don't see any empirical reason why stiffer plastic boots couldn't be made or used for NNN-BC, which would help remove boot play as a source of control loss. One could point out that the additional lateral boot and binding stiffness added by cables is a major advantage of the 75 mm binding, but I see no technical reason why cables and/or risers could not be designed into a more downhill-capable yet backwards compatible version of the NNN-BC binding.
So I don't think we can say 75 mm actually is the intrinsically stiffer and stronger binding design. There just isn't any publicly available data - that I know of - to actually show that is true.
Fischer has a new boot this year, the Transnordic. It comes in a 75 mm and NNNBC version. I haven't seen one in the flesh, but it looks like a sturdy boot and should offer pretty good lateral control for XCD. I'm betting that the two boots would ski pretty much the same, until you add a cable or hardwire to the 75 mm option. I suspect that Fischer and others are looking closely at the new Xplore binding. Alpina is promising a new boot next year and hopefully we will see more boots like Alfa's Free. Only time will tell if Scarpa will release a new version of the T4 for 75 mm. I really appreciate you taking the time to write such a detailed comment. I'm sure many will find it informative and helpful. I hope you are having a great winter.
@@tomm9850 Thanks for the reply! I didn't know about the Transnordic. With the Alaska out of stock in my size pretty much everywhere, I might have to Czech it off my list and look for the Transnordic in NNN-BC instead.
The xplore binding looks intriguing - if for no other reason than its apparent ease of use. It certainly has some technical advantages, with the wide pin mount width and lack of center ridges. It will be interesting to see how many boots come out for it, and how much market share it gains in the next few years.
On the other hand, the unknown longevity and stiffness of the retractable pin design does make for some new and different points of play and potential failure. Seeing one report on the TT forums of a boot with a sticky pin certainly isn't a good look this early into the system. I'll eagerly wait for your (and others') reviews as the xplore gets out there in the wild!
It'll probably be a while before the one XC shop here in Michigan that specializes in tele stocks it. And at $240/binding, it's more than twice as much as an NNN-BC binding, which certainly is something to consider.
I would find it hard to justify picking a set up myself, as I'm currently a single binding household, with 4 sets of skis and 2 pairs of boots between my fiancé and I, all in NNN-BC. At the point I'm at with my skills (middling) and boots (pretty soft), I definitely feel like I'm not close to the limits of the binding interface yet, even on icy downhill runs at the local ski 'hill'.
And alas, here in lower Michigan we barely get 4-8 weeks of skiable weather here on average - though it is a little more if you count manmade snow at the resorts. We have no high elevation to hold on to snow - the only answer is to go up north, but for the moment, they have less snow than we do! So we enjoy it while we can.
Also, I thought of a good analogy for my point of how the "wider attachment point gives you more leverage" argument isn't true: Think of your foot as a ratchet wrench turning some sort of fastener (the ski). The binding attachment point is like the square drive of the ratchet! A wider binding - like a big 1" or 3/4" square drive - doesn't increase the torque transmitted compared to a narrow binding - like a 1/2" or 3/8" drive. The torque is the same, regardless of the drive size.
The advantage of the bigger drive size - aka the wider binding - is that it twists less for a given torque, and that it can take a larger torque before breaking. But if you're torquing something to a relatively small value, the difference in stiffness is hardly noticeable, compared to any slop in the fit of the square drive (or the socket on the fastener).
On a side note which may or may not have anything to do with this, Rottefella's introduction of the xplore binding comes at a convenient 20 years after the introduction of NNN-BC, when any patents on that system as released have expired and the risk of knock-offs coming on the market increases.
I've been watching your videos a lot to gain more knowledge about xc bc skiing. I use a mountaineering double boot (Koflach Degre) with some Northland backcountry skiis I found for free from a neighbor, teamed up with Voile Switchbacks and some black diamond kicker skins for a Frankenstein rig of an approach ski for ice climbs and winter camping in the BWCA here in MN.
If you're looking for a challenge - do a test on XC BC skiis with mountaineering boots! I know a lot of the forums suggest using old Silvretta 404s and 500s - but Lonnie Dupre, a MN explorer uses homemade skiis and switchbacks with his mountaineering boots - so I had to give it a shot. Thanks again for all your help!
Fun to read about your setup. As you might guess, I've been at this a long time, and had a mountaineering setup back in the 70's with double mountaineering boots and silvretta cable bindings. They predated the 404's by several generations. I'm curious, did you have to modify the toe of either the boot or switchback to get a good match on the front? I really like the switchback bindings. They have stood the test of time and I highly recommend them.
@@joshuaborchardt2475 It sounds like you have a good workable setup. I had to look up the big baffin's on line as I was unfamiliar with them. They are very different from anything I have ever skied, certainly built for warmth. At any rate, thanks for checking in and posting about your experience with the switchbacks and mountaineering boots. The telemark talk forum also has a section for equipment resale www.telemarktalk.com/viewforum.php?f=4 but I expect that they should be an easy sale on Ebay. Keep your fingers crossed for snow.
Personally, I actually prefer the looser seating of the 3-pin. It encourages good stability muscle engagement, but allows more leeway to get up if you fall.
I've seen a lot of NNN skiers need to unclip entirely to get out of a snowdrift; I've rarely ever seen the same of 3-pin skiers.
It's recommended using the string behind the heel on boots with the traditional three pin binding.
Otherwise it tends to crack the sole.
Hi Tom, any advice on what to do if you're out in the middle of nowhere on NNN BC and the bar rips out of the sole of the boot? That's my biggest fear. Not sure how I would get the boot to mate with the ski once that bar is gone (or something else in the binding breaks). A bunch of straps is about the only thing I can think of.
If the bar in the boot pulls out in the field and the snow is too deep and soft to walk back, then you will need to find a way to lash the boot to the ski. I always carry an emergency kit when I'm skiing off trail which includes some straps. th-cam.com/video/n1356GdlCnI/w-d-xo.html and th-cam.com/video/x5Du8eOVdog/w-d-xo.html
Hey Tom what is the make and model of that first NNNBC boot?
Alfa Skarvet NNNBC th-cam.com/video/HrPenxR9eZ4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=RXN8CZ_oGUhrCpBg
What do you think of the lack of riser in the NNN BC binding?
A heel riser is useful for long sustained uphill climbs and are common on backcountry AT and Telemark bindings. I think they work best with hard plastic boots and free pivot bindings. The NNNBC is best suited for skiing moderate terrain with XC focused skis, and I don't think that heel risers (wires) are really necessary for that type of skiing. The heel plate that Voile uses on their basic 3 pin binding will accept a heel wire and I have heard that a few people have substituted the NNNBC heel plate with the Voile plate so they could use a climbing wire with their NNNBC setups. You would have to contact Voile to see if they would sell you one.
Thanks you Tom for the detailed video.
Would ski width make a difference in making a choice between bindings?
Either binding would be fine on any off trail ski with a waist of 50 mm or more. In general, if the ski is classified as an off trail ski (most off trail skis have metal edges) either binding would work fine.
Could you post some videos of you doing turns in NNN BC? Thanks.
I plan to do a review of my new Alfa Skarvet NNNBC boots later this season. Check out th-cam.com/video/igES1tME4F4/w-d-xo.html at the 2:01 minute mark for a few easy turns with these boots on my Fischer Traverse 78's. Stay tuned. Also check out Gus Gusterfson's video th-cam.com/video/UCK2SYLILnA/w-d-xo.html and hiyokoD's th-cam.com/video/Tk1TLISK3tk/w-d-xo.html for some skilled XCD turns with NNNBC boots.
@@tomm9850 That's great seeing people make it look easy but being new to this arena, it makes me nervous. I'm looking at getting my first soft boot / free heal set up and I wonder if I ought to get something with wire compatibility to make the learning curve easier.
@@mitchellhall7382 What ski / boot combination are you leaning toward? I think that a stiffer boot with a more downhill oriented ski is more than adequate for most moderate terrain. Cables make difficult conditions a bit easier, but I rarely use mine with a soft boot. When the conditions are such that I need a cable with my soft boots, I usually wish I had brought my plastic boots instead. That being said, I'm pretty old school and mostly ski on 3 pin bindings with wider skis, when I know that there will be some great downhill runs. My NNNBC setup is used mainly for rolling terrain, not because of the binding or boot, but mainly due to the ski they are attached to. Once we get more snow to cover the logs, I will shoot some offtrail downhill skiing using the Traverse / NNNBC / Alfa Skarvets. Stay tuned.
@@mitchellhall7382 If you are going to be doing mostly lift service telemark skiing, get a stiff plastic or composite boot and rock solid bindings. weight and mobility are not big factors for lift-service Telemark skiing. You don't need nearly the mobility of back-country. If you are going back-country, most of your activity will be similar to classic cross-country skiing and you need a fairly mobile ankle or else your lower leg is going to chafe against the boot cuff and you will be miserable. With lots of skill, you can ski leather back-country boots and 3-pin bindings on lift-service mountains, but using lift service telemark-specific equipment to ski back-country is a miserable experience. MY OPINION is that for true back-country skiing, a well made leather boot and heavy-duty three-pin binding is still the best way to get you into the bush, down slopes, and back home with lots of fun and comfort in-between. A well-made all-leather boot can be a little more expensive than some composite boots but it is money well spent.
I’ve done long trips with an old timer, and he’s seen the bar rip out of NNN-BC boots, which could be serious. While 75mm can also fail, it’s easier to bodge a repair that can get you to safety
The 75 mm system is certainly robust and time tested. I read just about as many reports of sole separation on 75 mm soft boots as I have bar problems on NNNBC, so any boot can fail in the backcountry. It is always a good idea to carry an emergency repair kit, especially on remote long distance tours, just in case of boot or binding failure, so that one has the ability to limp to safety. Thanks for tuning in and for posting. I hope you are having a great ski season.
Is there any binding the can bind the heel as well properly when it is needed?
As far as I know, there are no current cross country bindings with the option to fix the heel to the ski. The Alpine Touring (AT) system is the modern version of an off trail binding that allows for a free heel for touring and a fixed heel for downhill skiing.
I see. Thank you.
I think I would love to convert a ski touring binding with SNS for this purpose.
Very interesting, thanks, I was really wondering if the NNN BC was worth it compared to the 75mm, but I still wonder about the light "cable only" ones.
I have found that a set of Riva paired with stout leather boots (like the Andrew Expedition or the Alico Double) is miles above any 3 pin binding as far as rigidity goes, so I am really curious to know how the NNN BC would compare.
Shall we lament the loss of these "intermediate weight" telemark bindings (Riva 1-3, Z, Chili)? Or is the NNN BC system just as good?
There are lots of people who like the Riva cable bindings, and when combined with a stiff boot, make a great combination. There just aren't many stiff supportive boot options for NNNBC. I have seen people tele on NNNBC so it is possible with the right skill set and equipment.
@@tomm9850
Thank you.
So, if I understand right,
-NNN BC probably a better choice than 3 pin 75mm in gentle terrain (XC off the beaten track).
--In steeper terrain or when skiing downhill matters, cabled 75mm offers better performance, in part due to the choice of shoes available.
Sorry to keep bothering you with this, have you felt any difference in the usability of "cabled 3 pins" (like the traverse or Supertelemark) vs non pinned like the Riva?
For kick and glide tours on rolling terrain, I would prefer to ski NNNBC over 3 pin. I'm not a huge fan of skiing 3 pins with cables. The cables offer more downhill control, but I skied for decades without cables, so I rarely used them. Many disagree with me on the subject of cables, but I firmly believe that a good boot paired with the right skis is a better total ski experience (kick and glide, uphill, and downhill) without cables.
th-cam.com/video/e4bkvJVNQG0/w-d-xo.html This year I've remounted all my 3 pin and NNNBC XC skis with the new Xplore binding, and I prefer the new Xplore system and boots to 3 pin and NNNBC setups when using soft boots. th-cam.com/video/OvbZnj_5TPY/w-d-xo.html
@@tomm9850 My apologies, I recently discovered your great channel, and these videos flew under my radar :)
And indeed, the Xplore does seem very nice!
Thanks!
So as someone wanting to get back into cross country skiing. Is there a reliable source for old 3 pin style boots? I've outgrown my boots but the skiis are still proper size. Amazon isn't an option and I'd rather deal with an actual ski shop.
They are still making leather 3 pin boots but they are harder to find. Alpina has the Alaska 75 and the TR Free, Fischer has the Transnordic 75, and I think that Crispi is still in the game. Alico has 3 models this year (2023) but I have no experience with them. us-store.altaiskis.com/product/new-in-2023-alico-3-pin-75-mm-ski-boots-3-models/ Lundhags has one model, the Guide Expedition 75 www.lundhags.com/en/footwear/women/ski-and-skate-boots/guide-expedition-75/ but it is another boot that I have no experience with. I don't know what the future holds but there are lots of people who love 75 mm 3 pin. There is usually a good supply of used boots on the aftermarket and you might even be able to find the same model and size of your current boot. Ebay always has a lot of listings, but you have to be careful as some are very old boots and if they haven't been stored properly, the leather and rubber could be brittle. REI still has a good supply of the Alpina Alaska 75 www.rei.com/product/124124/alpina-alaska-75-cross-country-ski-boots The Alpina Alaska is a pretty good off trail 75 mm XC boot and REI has a great return policy if the boot doesn't work out for you. If you can't find a 3 pin boot to your liking, you could have your skis mounted with a NNNBC binding. I'm glad to hear that you are going to get back on the trail and rekindle some fond memories. Best of luck and thanks for tuning in
Thank you for the info definitely gives me a lot to consider and places to look.
So there's three different NNNBC bindings? NNBC Auto, NNBC Manual, and NNNBC Magnum? Are magum and manual both have levers and work in the same identical 'manual' fashion? Which one is better?
The magnums and the manuals operate in the same fashion and will work with all NNNBC boots. The Magnums have a wider base plate and a larger lever. From an esthetic standpoint, most people mount the Magnums on wide XC skis and the manuals on narrower skis. They pretty much ski the same, as they have the same flexor and toe bar attachment. I don't think I could tell the difference between the two in actual use. Some people claim that the wider base plate offers better steering control and that it is easier to open and close the binding with the larger front lever. The magnums are a bit heavier.
@tomm9850 I intend to BC XC ski in both east and west coast. Not sure I want to do any XCD yet, but if whatever binding system I buy has that capability, that's certainly a bonus. What do you recommend? I just got NNNBC boots but I can still return them if I want a different binding, such as 3 pin. 3 pin gives you a lot of different options, which is cool, but it's expensive. Supposedly there's some binding that's like a cross between 3 pin and NNNBC
@gremlin7599 NNNBC is a great system for off trail XC skiing. It is probably the most popular and will be relevant for a long time to come. Rottefella has a newer off trail system, Xplore, and I've been skiing it for a few years now. There is a lot to like about the Xplore system and I think it is the future, but it is more expensive and has fewer boot options. I still have one ski setup with 3 pins, but it is a downhill focused setup and I ski it with a stiff plastic telemark boot. Julie used to ski 3 pin but has skied NNN and NNNBC setups for many years and sees no reason to have a 3 pin setup or to switch to Xplore. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages and it mostly comes down to finding a boot that fits you, a ski that is designed for the type of skiing you enjoy and perfecting the skillset for your gear. Whichever system you pick, I know you will have lots of fun. th-cam.com/video/-vn443QHi7E/w-d-xo.html
@tomm9850 thanks so much! I originally was totally sold on NNNBC and was intending to buy that. Then I found out 3 pin is way heavier duty (allegedly) and of course it has a bunch of features that allow you to modify it. You can get rhe cables, the riser plates (not sure if that's the right jargon). I still pulled the trigger on a pair of NNNBC boots anyway though.
Hopefully xplore doesn't come make NNNBC obsolete anytime soon, of course they have to shovel out some new stuff all the time to try to make more money. Good to know you like it though, I value your testimony. Thank you so much for your help again, we're very lucky to have your videos
Great video Tom, thanks. I’m currently skiing with the following set up: Rossy BC70 ski, Rossi Bx10 boots, and Rottafella nnnbc bindings. I want to turn it up a notch with hills…want to keep the skis and put 3-pin with cables with the Alpina Alaska boot. Do you think this will be better? Thanks again.
Your current setup is similar to what many would pick as an off trail XC ski for skiing forest service roads and kick and glide tours. Adding a stiffer boot would offer more downhill control, but if you are serious about stepping things up a notch in the downhill area, then I think you might want to consider a second set of skis / boots / bindings and keep your current setup for kick and glide tours, especially if your current boots are in good shape. This year I've been skiing the new Rottefella Xplore binding with both the Alaska XP and the Alfa Free Boots. I have 3 sets of skis with the Xplore binding (Discovery 80, Sbound 98, Voile Objective). I can mix and match boots and skis depending on the purpose of the tour. I think the Xplore system is the future for off trail Cross Country and for Cross Country Downhill on lightweight gear. Adding a 3 pin and 75 mm Alaska boots to your current skis would give you better downhill control over what you are currently skiing, but in the long run, I'm betting you would be happier with the Xplore system if you plan to ski soft boots. At this point, I'd probably only recommend a 3 pin cable binding for those who want to ski a hard plastic boot like the Scarpa T4 on a very wide downhill ski.
@@tomm9850 wow… Tom that was a very generous response, thank you very much. I will certainly take a look at the xplore system as you suggested. Are different boots needed or would the same ones that fit into an nnn system work? (80% of my skiing is exactly what you described above-in Southern Ontario. My goal is to plan one trip /season to some hillier eastern slopes like the Adirondacks- probably not enough for a whole new system. Thinking about next year already!!!
Just took a quick peak... this looks incredible. But pricey eh?
@@abnerlico The Xplore binding will require new boots. The Xplore system is new this year. NNNBC is a great system, but the Xplore system offers more downhill control without sacrificing any of the great kick and glide that NNNBC offers. The biggest downside is the cost. A 3 pin cable binding and Alaska 75 boots retail for around $400 and the Xplore binding and the Alaska XP boots retail for around $575. I've posted several videos testing and skiing the Xplore this season, so be sure to check them out. Right now there are only 4 boot options for the Xplore, but there will be at least two more boot options available next year.
@@tomm9850 (feel free to stop responding at any time you feel this is too much) Tom, I am old(ish) turning 57 this May. This was a good year of skiing for me and I probably went out 10 times; short season and snow-dependent (we had a great initial dump that kept it going). Suffice to say that skiing is not a huge part of my recreational life (I love it though!!). I just want to maintain the same sort of schedule BUT with that one special long weekend to the eastern US mountains. "Just rent' is the obvious answer... but I do like going up and down hills even here in flat southern ontario and want to get good at the tele-turn. So I am thinking the voile 3 pin(with cable - if it fits my ski) with the Alaska boot. (fyi I've just come back to xcountry @ 3 years ago). Anyway.... I have been watching all your videos. They are so great! Well done Tom! You have put a lot of effort into them.
Tom, or anybody, I just moved to Northeast Ohio last winter and I want try xc skiing next winter if we get enough snow here near Cleveland 😂. Have been looking in Facebook Market and I have found tons of good deals for skis with the NN 3 pin binding. Don’t want to spend crazy money until I actually try it. Are theses ok for beginners? I would be skiing in local golf courses or short groomed trails. Nothing crazy.
Buying used gear is probably the best way to get started. You can start with a minimal investment, learn the basics of cross country skiing and have lots of fun in the process. Used gear, especially very old gear, is readily available and doesn't hold its value so don't use new equipment prices as a measure of equitable prices. If you can find a "package deal" with boots, skis and poles that would be best. If you are buying the skis and boots from different sources, just keep in mind that there are several different boot / binding variations, and they are not interchangeable. Since you are planning to learn on golf courses and on groomed trails, be sure to pick up a narrow XC ski, as the wide offtrail XCD systems as shown in this video would not be the best choice for those conditions. I hope you find a great system and I guarantee you will have a blast.
@@tomm9850 Thanks Tom! I’m eyeing some skis with poles and the boots for $75 on FB. The skiis are 210cm. I’m 5’6 and 175lbs. Are these too long?
Hard to say for sure without more information. Most people skied longer skis in past decades. I'm 5'8" @ 150 lbs and my waxible track skis are 205 cm long. Longer skis glide faster in the track but you need to be able to compress one ski when you have full your full weight on a single ski in order to get enough grip. Check out the section on this link regarding the paper test for camber.
www.gearx.com/blog/knowledge/skiing/how-to-choose-cross-country-skiing-gear/
What about icing up? I've heard stories of people winter camping and their boots froze to their NNNBC bindings. I've never experienced it myself.
I don't think I've ever camped with an NNNBC setup. When I ski NNNBC, I do have problems with snow packing in the front bar pocket when I walk around in snow with the boots, but it is easily cleared with a key or a pole tip.
Exactly the info I was looking for! thank you!
You are welcome. Hope you have a great ski season.
Thanks for the comparison. Well done. What are your thoughts on the Alpina Alaska NNN BC boot? Isn't that the heaviest Boot on the market? I like it but what are your thoughts?
The Alpina Alaska boots are very popular and receive lots of good praise on the Telemark Talk Forum. I've not had a chance to compare the NNNBC Alaskan's to my Alfa Skarvets. I did try on a pair of Alpina Alaska 75's last season when I was shopping for a replacement for my worn out Fischer BCX 675's, but I don't know how similar they are to the NNNBC version. I'm still evaluating the Skarvets, but I'm waiting for additional snow so I can ski them on more challenging terrain before I post a review. Alfa does make a beefier NNNBC boot, the Guard Advance GTX. It weighs more and offers additional ankle support. I've not seen them in person. If you are looking for an NNNBC boot that is beefier than the Skarvets, you might want to read this link www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2145&hilit=alfa+guard+advance
Excellent explanation, many thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the great videos! I’m getting back into xc skiing and am looking a ski/boot/binding combo that will work for cruizy backcountry tours and the occasional lift-served telemark session. I’m on the fence between NNN BC and good ol’ 3-pin. What do you think?
If you are planning on buying new gear for the 2021/2022 season, be sure to check out the new Rottefella Xplore binding / boot system. From what I've read, it could be just what many have been looking for. www.telemarktalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3563
Thanks for the great indepth video. Ive only done one 25mile trip on rented XC skis and I want to buy my own kit this year. Then I can do less resort skiing and more backcountry. It looks like neither binding is bad. I think Ill go for the 3pin as I want something utiltarian and low cost. There are a bunch of groomed trails near me and I was wondering if both types of bindings are capable for skate skiing?
The 3 pin and the NNN-BC bindings used on offtrail skis are not appropriate for skate skiing. I'd recommend using a dedicated skate ski / boot combination for skate skiing. Its OK to traditional ski on a groomed trail with an offtrail ski setup, but keep in mind that groomed tracks are usually less than 70 mm wide. If your skis are wider than that, you should ski outside the set tracks. Just for reference, most skate skis are less than 45 mm in width. Here is a link for some general information regarding skate ski equipment. www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/skate-skiing-gear.html
I got some vintage skis that have three-pin bindings, but they’re too pointed/tapered for the three-pin boots I have (the boots are more square-shaped like the ones in this video). Do you know if there’s a different style of three-pin boot with a tapered end?
The 75 mm 3 pin standard has been around longer than I have been skiing (1972) but I know that there were a few other pin bindings marketed over the years. It sounds like you have one of those unusual bindings. You won't be able to find any new boots that will fit those bindings. I don't know if you could find a vintage set of boots that match them on Ebay. If it were me, I'd remove the old binding and install a binding that matches your boot. (unless of course the skis/binding have some historic value and you are interested in preserving them) Check out this link if you are curious. acrossthesnowline.com/2020/02/19/pins-to-pivots-and-the-nightmare-of-the-90s/#:~:text=The%20original%2075mm%20three%2Dpin,disciplines%20in%20boots%20and%20bindings.
Thank you so much!
HiTom.Is the Voile 3pin Traverse better than 3 pin regular?The difference seems to be in heel raiser option.Does traverse give more control over regular 3 pin?Is whole the rest the same?Is it worth to investmore money?
Best regards Jacek
In theory, the riser gives a longer moment arm, and all things being equal, more lateral power, but I can't tell any real difference between the two. I have the 3 pin cable on my 98's and the traverse on my objectives, so it is difficult to make a direct comparison. There are a couple of other things to consider. The riser plate on the traverse is a 4 screw attachment. Voile does not recommend using telemark bindings on their hyper series of skis because of pull out issues. I feel better about having a 4 screw connection on that ski, especially when skiing with plastic boots. I also appreciate the higher riser wire on the traverse when skinning for hours up steeper slopes. I'm not a big fan of the spring cable and rarely use it when skiing my 98's. I bought the Traverse for my Objectives hoping that I would be able to leave the cable attached to the binding, have the cable sit nicely below and behind the heel riser when skiing uphill, and then all I would need to do was clamp the cable to the boot for the downhill, but it can't be used in that fashion. The problem is that the clamp on the spring won't stay closed when not attached to the boot, so I carry the spring cables in the pack. It is a hassle to put the cables on and take them off as I don't like the feel of the spring cables for skiing on the uphill or flats. The Voile 3 pin hardwire doesn't have this limiation, but it is heavier and more costly. So if I had to do it over again, I think I'd opt for the Rottefella 3 pin for my 98's (because I rarely use the cable with this ski) and the Voile 3 pin hardwire for my Objectives. The Rottefella 3 pin is lighter and a good choice for leather boots. The Rottefella cannot be used with the thick duckbill on my Scarpa T2's. The Voile 3 pin hardwire would give me the option to leave the hardwire at home when skiing the objectives with leather boots, and the ability to leave the hardwire on the ski when skinning uphill with plastic boots.
I found 4 types. nnn, nnn bc auto, nnn bc manual 56mm, nnn bc magnum 67mm.
Fair comparison, but that Voile binding was more suited for a real telemark boot. There are better 75mm bindings for that thinner 75mm toed boot - with a thinner opening that won't allow the amount of wiggle..
Yes I agree. The Rottefella 3 pin telemark binding is better suited for the thinner soled boots like the one shown in this video, and I skied that binding on a set of Fischer S-Bound 125's for several years. I haven't had the opportunity to test the newest Rottefella 3 pin binding, (the one with the heel spring attachment), but it might be a good choice. The bail on my older Rottefella 3 pins (circa 2005) would not clamp down on the Scarpa T4 or T2 boots, and that is why I changed to the Voile 3 pin.
Any issues with ice on bar nnnbc?
I haven't experienced ice on the bar while skiing, but snow can pack into the pocket on the toe of the boot when walking from the car to the trailhead or if you take your skis off and walk around in the snow during a tour. Most people use their car key or similar tool to poke the snow out of the pocket and it is possible to remove the snow with the tip of the ski pole with a little balancing act. I've also read a few comments where people complain about ice issues with the automatic (step in) NNN and NNNBC bindings, but I've never experienced that myself.
@@tomm9850 fab reply thank you
Everybody has their own opinion about bindings. My opinion and that of my friends is that the 75mm 3-pin is much more stable and rigid than the NNN BC. The lateral play that it shown here at 4:40 is because the sole of that boot is too soft. A standard thick Vibram sole will not give that much play and will be much more supportive.
I agree, the boot is the biggest factor. A little lateral play can be expected because there has to be some space between the "wings" of the 3 pin binding and the edge of the boot. A cable / 3 pin setup or a plastic boot / 3 pin setup offers more control than what can be achieved with NNNBC. Its been my experience that given a similar boot (NNNBC or 75 mm), there really isn't much difference between the two. As you might expect, I'm pretty old school, and I ski the 3 pin on two different sets of skis. Just for fun, I went for a ski using an NNNBC system on one foot and the 3 pin on another foot, using boots of similar design and capabilities, and discuss my thoughts in this video th-cam.com/video/PgOkanEdt28/w-d-xo.html
@@tomm9850 HAAA! Tom, I have never tried skiing with two different boots at the same time! I bow to your advanced experience having performed the ultimate test. Good thinking. Good show.
Very informative video. Thanks
Glad it was helpful. Thanks for tuning in.
Is the Magnum an advantage?
The Magnum has a wider foot plate with the idea that it offers a bit more lateral control and better steering. I don't think it makes a huge difference. If I had a set of skis that already had the standard NNNBC mounted, I don't think it would be worth the time and effort to replace the standard binding with the Magnum. For a new mount, I'd probably choose the Magnum for off trail skiing. On the other hand, I'd pick the standard binding for a narrow ski, especially if it might be used upon occasion for a groomed track.
I had no idea there were those other options with the 3 pin binding. If I had known this I would have chosen that binding instead!
Can you buy 3 pin bindings still? 😯
@ Yes, I think that it is more like a telemark setup though. Because once you add the heal riser and the cable it looks more like what a telemark binding is.
I think there is somethings to put into consideration to be really fair:
-The Rossi BCX doesn't compare well to the Alfa Skarvet;
-The Voile 3pc has a wider space under the bail; with a Rossi BCX-which has a thinner duckbill (than say norwegian welt boot) fits in more loosely. But you could always click in the third position... your demonstration would have been different. And you could have used a Rottefella ST binding which keeps that kind of boot and sole (thermoglued) more tightly in place...
All valid points. I used the Rossi Super Tele 3 pin for a number of years, but switched to the Voile 3 pin when I started using the Scarpa T4. The toe on the Scarpa T4 was too thick for the Rossi binding. I have and use both the NNN-BC and 75 mm binding. They are both good systems, each with their own benefits and weakness. If you haven't already, check out my Alfa Greenland boot review where I ski the NNN-BC on one foot and the 75 mm 3pin on the other foot as a simple comparison. th-cam.com/video/PgOkanEdt28/w-d-xo.html Thanks for you feedback and I hope you have a great ski season.
This video is 4 years old. I'm being told by ski shops that "nobody makes 3-pin boots anymore". I know this isn't technically true, since I've found a few, but it's possible that choices are becoming limited. I'm just getting into xc skiing so I'm doing some "research" before I decide, but I'm leaning towards NNNBC...
I don't think they have stopped making leather 3 pin boots, but there are fewer choices. Alfa and Rossignol have moved away from 75 mm but Alpina still has the Alaska 75 and the TR Free, Fischer has the Transnordic 75, and I think that Crispi is still in the game. I don't know what the future holds but there are lots of people who love 75 mm and there should be a good supply of used boots on the aftermarket for some time to come. The big advantage of 75 mm is that it supports cable, hardwire and burley plastic boots. NNNBC is a great choice for off trail XC skiing and if you don't intend to use one of the burley downhill setups, it is probably the better choice.
@agalligani I forgot to mention Alico. I have not skied their boots, but they have 3 models this year (2023). us-store.altaiskis.com/product/new-in-2023-alico-3-pin-75-mm-ski-boots-3-models/, and Lundhags has one model, the Guide Expedition 75 www.lundhags.com/en/footwear/women/ski-and-skate-boots/guide-expedition-75/ I also wanted to point out that many of these boot models are available in both a NNNBC and a 75 mm option. They are basically the same upper boot with a different sole. The two different versions will ski a bit differently but would be more similar than different in their capabilities.
@@tomm9850 yeah that's pretty much where I'm at. The ski shop I went to had the Alpinas but they were so damn narrow an 11 (45) didn't fit my foot. There weren't enough 3 pin boots in general for there to be one that fit my feet. So I threw in the towel and got BC boots, which is possibly for the best anyway as I'm probably not gonna do much back country. I don't want a big hard plastic boot either. I don't understand why there's no method to lockdown the BC boot if desired... maybe that's something the industry should think about.
@@agalligani I'm sure you will be happy with NNNBC. It is probably the best option for most people and currently has the biggest selection of boots to choose from. Thanks for tuning in and posting, and have a great ski season.
Thank you for this video. Great information!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for tuning in and have a great ski season.
@@tomm9850 I've actually never cross country skied before but our local hill is pretending covid doesn't exist and I don't want to be in crowded lift lines. We have 2 pairs of 3 pin skis from the 80s; going to try to shop around for boots, but the 3 pins are getting harder to find. Where do you get yours?
The 3 pin boots that are available today are geared toward off trail skiing. They are heavy duty boots, can be a bit pricey and are best used on wider skis. REI currently carries 3 boots www.rei.com/c/cross-country-ski-boots?ir=category%3Across-country-ski-boots&r=c%3Bbinding-compatibility%3A75mm+3-pin
In the 80's, some people were still skiing 3 pin setups on narrow skis with light duty boots for track skiing and gentle off trail. If you are looking for lighter weight boots, you might want to give Ebay or Craigs list a try. There are tons of used 3 pin "cross country boots" available on Ebay for under $50. If you decide to buy used, just be sure to check the pin holes on the bottom of the boot toe to make sure that they have not been "blown out" and that there are no cracks in the toe / hole area.
HmmMMM might have to deviate a bit from my voile three pin setup.
Thanks, that's exactly the information I needed to digest visually (I'm MartinF on telemarktalk - you may have noticed my questions on the topic).
Each has their merits and weakness. It mostly comes down to picking the boot and ski.
Really helpful. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Why I won't buy NNN.... I have thrown away boxes of step in boots and bindings over the years. As a kid I had those red look or whatever brand bindings went obsolete. Then I had SNS profil and SNS pilot and then NNN apparently "won" the war. But it's hard to know what system will be around when. It comes time to replace your boots. Everytime a system gets revised your stuff goes obsolete and you end up scouring ebay for hours trying to find a new set of boots for your old binding then you breakdown and replace both. 75mm stuff just keeps on being available.
75 mm sure has stood the test of time.
If you want to really improve the side to side motion on a 75mm boot. Spray sole with silicone. Mask ski put a big blob of jb weld on the heel plate. Use a big c clamp to clamp boot down. Once the jb weld cures to the heel plate remove clamp and lightly file corners of jb weld. Heel will be super locked in for lateral movement.
@@pbgd3 Interesting idea. Have you tried this and if so, do you have a problem with snow/ice packing into the jbweld heel plate?
@@tomm9850 ya it works great only issue is if you use different boots. I'm going to try filling the threads on the boot with some putty next time to only have two ridges. Helps when side hill skiing as your boots down slip sideways in the glide.
Excellent tutorial.
Thanks Jill. Hope you are having a great ski season.
Thank so much for the thorough analysis. Any thoughts on safety of three-pin system versus nnn-bc? Especially related to knee injuries. Am I right that the nnn-bc will release with enough torque?
The Magnum NNNBC binding does not have an official safety release mechanism. The bar on the boot is held in with spring steel and it might be possible for the boot to pull from the binding given enough force, but I've never had one release, and I don't know how much force it takes to pop the boot out of a closed binding. My wife's boots would occasionally pop out of her binding when skiing on the flats, if a snow ball formed under the toe of her boot. I've always considered that a flaw, not a safety feature. The topic of non releasable XC bindings and the potential for injury is controversial. Most XC skiers are comfortable skiing either the NNNBC or 3 pin bindings knowing that the skis will not release in a fall. It is not without risk however. I had a bad fall about 3 years ago and ended up with a very bad sprain. They do make some releasable plates that can be used with 3 pin bindings, but I have no experience with them. There has been some talk about a new binding for XC downhill skiing that will include a release feature, but it has yet to materialize. If you feel that releasable bindings are necessary for your backcountry downhill skiing, then you should probably skip the XC binding/ski route and look into an AT backcountry setup. Here is a link you might find an interesting read nmccskiclub.org/x-c-ski-injuries-and-ski-bindings/
Thank you, Tom for that info and sharing your thoughts!
What is all this aboot?
Needs a good heal plate!
Thanks!
Put a Scott Excursion boot in a Voile Mountaineer 3 pin binding and it’ll outdo any NNN BC binding.
I sure wish that Scott still made the Excursion. You are lucky to have a set.
NO for the new ski binding NNN. 3 pins is more practical: NNN difficult to put on , and often not connected when you thought it was. NNN looks nice on the workbench like in this video, but a pain to put on while on the trail outside in the snow. Unfortunately I cannot do anymore telemark with the new system NNN.
3 pin is the way to go.
I think there are 3 different ones. nnn, nnn bc and nnn bc magnum. those are magnums.
Good eye. The magnums have a wider plastic foot plate and weigh a little bit more than the NNN BC. There is also an auto (step in) version of the NNN BC. Thanks for adding to the discussion and for tuning in and I hope you have a great ski season.
言ってることは分からないけど、参考になり、知りたいことを知れました。ありがとうございます。
You are welcome. Hope you have a great ski season. どういたしまして。素晴らしいスキーシーズンをお過ごしください
Plastic topped alpina boot the best light duty bc boot I ever had ; nnnbc
Alpina boot with a pastic ankle part was the best nnnbc boot I ever had . Same era as the supercomp tele boot.
I've not skied ski the vintage plastic cuffed Alpina leather boots. Are you still skiing those boots?
sadly no they fell apart years ago. bootms came off couldn't keep them together.
Easy to get out of with your pole, but a bitch when one ski is vernicle & stuck in the ice or brook!
Excellent.
Thanks for watching
Thanks for the great videos! I’m getting back into xc skiing and am looking a ski/boot/binding combo that will work for cruizy backcountry tours and the occasional lift-served telemark session. I’m on the fence between NNN BC and good ol’ 3-pin. What do you think?
Next fall there will be a 3rd option, the Rottefella Xplore. The new binding / boot system looks promising and may be just what you are looking for. The NNNBC and 3 pin systems are very different, but both work well for off trail XC skiing. For most people, I'd recommend the NNN BC for cruizy off trail, but as soon as you mentioned lift served, then the needle swings toward the 3 pin. The 3 pin is a better choice for lift served because it is easier to ski downhill using a beefy boot and a cable / hardwire. You can have two sets of boots, a soft boot for "kick and glide" tours and a heavy stiff boot when "touring for turns",
@@tomm9850 thanks for the advice! I’m running NNN BC on a pair of Spider 62s and like them, but 3pin or cable was my go-to for ever. I like the feel of the NNN BC closer to my toe and thought it might help carve the teles.
Like your videos! Us gray haired free heelers got to stick together!
The NNNBC on the Spider 62's is a great match and a good sturdy boot will help alot with the teles. I hope you have had a great winter and it is nice to know that there are others like myself out there having fun in the snow.