Jatitva Vs Hindutva
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ค. 2024
- In this podcast, Kushal speaks with Akshar Patel as he explains what he calls "Jatitva." This podcast is an explainer of a "nascent yet storied ideology that is taking India by storm as Jatitva faces off against Hindutva. It is about critical caste theory, Lebanese confessionalism, & a lot more."
Follow Akshar:
Twitter: @TheEmissaryCo
Website: theemissary.co/
#Caste #Hindutva #Ambedkar #LokSabha2024
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00:00:00 - intro
00:05:40 - Jatitva
00:14:34 - Jati vs Varna
00:22:13 - Has reservation solidified caste in India ?
00:23:24 - Life and Caste
00:29:32 - Mandal Effect
00:38:28 - removing reservation
00:43:22 - endogamy
01:02:10 - Caste is Cancer
01:07:43 - threats to Indian discourse
01:12:47 - fearing 2029
01:24:14 - QnA
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Man this boy came in content creation with thundering drums. Never saw a beginner with such eloquent and impactful presentation!
He is obviously funded
Right after playing the IPL , Akshar is on Kushal's podcast. What a man
Arrey he’s not in the India first xi for the World Cup, so he’s vella
The Emissary was an excellent choice of guest. Thoroughly enjoyed this podcast!
Great convo man.... Akshar is great, he created a new conversation with an great idea 💡💡
I am not surprised that people living outside India find India complex hard to understand, we Bharatiya struggle with our own traditions and culture. This is definitely a valuable discussion shedding a different light on a very important topic.
I’ve met Kushal uncle irl and he’s absolutely the same irl which i find SO refreshing
khadus and aggressively defensive? did he lecture you about you not reading? :D
@45:00 many people do follow their rituals from their ritualistic pantheon. Depending on which social tier you interact with in which part of the country, I’m sure you’ll find overwhelming number of ppl following their “ethnic ritual traditions”.
@1:15:00 Can we build orgs to mish mash the intra -caste -dependency ?
I also take a different interpretation. The feet are the foundation of strength and stability. It's not a hierarchy but an interconnected Indra Jala as Rajiv Malhotra ji puts it. Your points are excellent Kushal. It's something about the human nature that associates occupation with respect. Some jobs are objectively more important than others, so classic monkeys we are, we associate some people with more importance than others. Everybody performs their role in the circle of life and everyone's role must be respected.
Irks me though that when it happens in India, it is casteism, when it happens in Western countries by importing immigrants to do the dirty jobs, it is just immigration.
I really never comment on kushals videos, because I don't think he even reads them.
But now I am really mad..
Why does he want reservation for the SCs, and not for the EWS ?..
Is he absolutely out his mind ?...
So you are basically ready to provide benefits to a "Cast" rather than the actual problem is hand i.e poverty
I somewhat agree. Rural Dalits are all poor but urban Dalits are not. If reservation goes to each urban dalit will already be in a well off position to secure a rank but a rural dalit will not because of limited resources. So reservation for SC/ST should be like one time thing to uplift a rural dalit from regressive position to a better one.
@VeganSanatani when sc st and OBC reservation was given it was based on data and reason (historical untouchability SC St and economically backward class for OBC). Modi Government gave 10 percent to EWS without any census done. Also with that modi government crossed the limit of 50 percent reservation limit. Modi government gave reservation to 70 percent reservation to Kashmiri people (most of them are Muslims especially bakarwala and pahadis) without any census done. BJP is following congress in that. Congress used to do only Muslim appeasement, BJP did upper caste and Muslim appeasement.
@@cinefile0075 I understand.. that's exactly my prospective as well.
Trust me, BJP will become the next Congress, but then we stand on fault line..
Who would even contest the BJP if it also becomes left ?..
@@cinefile0075 we need more Right leaning parties
Hello he was recently on the razib 's show
Jai shree ram sir 🕉💪🚩🚩🚩
You said that we should destroy jati varna not jati I don't understand it properly I mean how can jati be preserved if varna is destroyed and why shouldn't we destroy jati
Kushal can you please do an episode on how to address common topics asked by abrahamics and others from western countries? I find that as a hindu kid who grew up in the west, I do a decent job at tackling their questions but most of my Indian counterparts either get angry, are completely oblivious or answer the wrong questions. As more people ask for our opinions, we should be able to speak clearly and with understanding. Not just get angry or ramble
What do they ask?
Read and learn for curiosity and the love for your religion not because you want to be able to answer questions. That approach is not going to take you very far and will only give you surface-level Or skin deep understanding.
I can say one thing for sure, caste identity is waning slowly but surely, BJP and PM Modi with his economic liberal policies will make sure caste becomes not political agenda anymore.
You said BJP is becoming OBC SC/ST Party. Wouldn't that make Hindutva die and promote Jatitva? Are the OBCs joining as Hindus or joining to increase OBC reservation and other privileges?
It means obc, sc, st are adopting hindutva
We must look towards kula devtas & start worshipping them & promote it so that all the jathi's get aligned with Hindutva
Let me tell you one thing... Kushal is absolutely out of his mind..
He is ok with SC reservations but not EWS.
Your comment shows that you do not think that OBC SC ST are Hindus.
@@VeganSanataniwhen sc st and OBC reservation was given it was based on data and reason (historical untouchability SC St and economically backward class for OBC). Modi Government gave 10 percent to EWS without any census done. Also with that modi government crossed the limit of 50 percent reservation limit. Modi government gave reservation to 70 percent reservation to Kashmiri people (most of them are Muslims especially bakarwala and pahadis) without any census done. BJP is following congress in that. Congress used to do only Muslim appeasement, BJP did upper caste and Muslim appeasement...
Guys: it's the lack of mobility of jatis among varnas was the fundamental problem. Everything else is irrelevant and universal.
E g., the East India Company created Kshatriyas (i.e., warriors) on demand from lower rungs of the society, a practice shunned for thousands of years. Without this move, UK would have not been able to just take the whole country in a short period.
About 80% of the Subcontinent had no class or social mobility. Endogamy could only create so many smart pundits or strong warriors. Given an opportunity, the backwards castes could have replaced perhaps all the "entitled" pundits and warriors.
The constraint of the mobility of jatis in the varna ladder was the root cause of decline of India from Gupta period until Manu was put to rest by the constitution in 1950.
there is no such thing as mobility of jaati. Its like saying there's mobility of ethnicity, your jaati/kul/varna is decided when you're born. Its not something thats mutable.
@@kachekijaanlega
Read again. Jati is fixed. Varna is a profession. I'm referring to the mobility, say, a sudra becoming a kshatriya or a brahmin.
@@kachekijaanlegaVarna is not decided when "you" are born , it's decided on basis of what jaati you were born into. If you were born to a jaati that had occupation of a ruler of a certain region or land lord that attribute comes from jaati but here's the thing jaati do have mobility , it's extremely rare and take years or decades are is very region dependent ( sub district level stuff). Some of it don't come from genuine mobility but from copying jaatis that currently rank higher in varna . Having said that most of this is in premodern fuedal times so interpretations are according to realities of that time.
@@sccytnobody follows Varna system in Hinduism. Ask a brahmin and he will tell you about jati instead of Varna, basically your jati is fixed by birth, in Hinduism if you are born as dalit you will stay dalit irrespective of your occupation, if you don't change your religion.
Agar charano ko itna bura samjha jata to charan sparsh ka bhi niyam na hota
11:24 he confuses (deliberately or not) caste identities with tribal rituals which is mostly confined to a region, and people irrespective of their castes take part in that.
He mentions Upnayan Sanskar. There are gazillions of such Caste/Tribe rites and rituals all across India.
Hey, unrelated to this podcast. But didnt know where to reach you.
Read your book. Its absolutely lovely. 🥰
Thank you 🙏
Your book felt like a detailed exposition on what my Guru (Sadguru) preaches in short snippets. That in this culture spirituality is about seeking, and not believing, and that seeking begins with doubt and questioning everything. 😊
A counter to the argument that a caste may have a population of a country so it doesn't harm genetically, there are multiple sub caste in a caste and within a sub caste there are many sub groups and then there are other filters like same language, or sometimes they same village or town after applying all these filters the the caste size shrinks significantly, In my family till my parents generation all married in the same sub group and my parents happened to be distant relatives from multiple ways my mom even says when there is a marriage of 2 people of the same sub group if the elders of both the families sit and chat for 30 mins or so there will for sure find a distant relation between the bride and groom, literally all my uncle and aunts are distant relatives
Actually in contrast jathi's & surnames based on lineages & relationships are the correct way to track the record of genetic mutation. And if you don't have any such system of tracking of genetic mutation someone may end up having offsprings with their close cousins. But I believe languages should be preserved & inter-liguistic marriages would kill it. So limiting to your regional & linguistic boundaries is preferable.
And if any inter-jathi/inter-regional/inter-liguistic marriages happen stick to the code of the girl adopting the guy's way as a civilizational responsibility which will preserve the traditions & rituals as well.
Civilizational cannot be great from outside & hallow from inside.
Civilization itself means the complexity of social structures developed within itself with having as kind of languages, jathi's, lineages, family structures, relationships, regions etc & Profession/varna unifying all the jathi's along the length & breath of the country & it's civilization beyond boundaries.. Particular Varna/profession cannot become a jathi at any cost. Varna is fluid & jathi is birth based which is just a tribe & no tribe can claim to be higher than other tribes!
Yes but professions might be valued higher but then it is fluid any individual from any jathi can climb that ladder with competence.
There is a strong need to start classifying which profession comes under which Varna?
I'm open to transform the Varna system itself completely by either by changing the names/ adding many more/ remaining bringing all of them under 4 chaturvarnas according to the characteristics & attributes physically & mentally as there are many new industries emerged & thousands of new jobs & hundreds of new professions.
We're beating around the bush instead of fixing the Varna system according to the modern times.
Even in some point in time in the past our ancestors had fixed it according to emerging professions may be during the invasions everything is mixed up & some new professions have not even classified atleast with in the fold. So it's time we fix the on going problem of 2000+ years of problem with Varna system.
We should not Annihilate but preserve it by fixing. Enormous research should be made by scholars from all the sides of our civilization. Varna has many advantages to stop chrony capitalism when the new& upgraded technologies are shared & developed for the same profession working for different entities or as individuals who belong to different jathi's & regions across the country
@@gouniraghuvamshigoud jathi/surnames help in track record how??and who will not know the names of their close cousin name
I understand where your coming from about inter linguistic marriage my mother tounge is kannada and I know many people who's one of their parents are non kannada speakers yet they talk both their parents language fluently on the other hand I know lots of people who have pure kannada speaking parents butdon't speak kannada properly their parents wanted them to learn English and even preferred hindi over kannada for better opportunities so I believe the way kids are brought is important than parents language for preserving language traditions
@@gouniraghuvamshigoud No i think in a intercaste marriage who should adopt who's tradition or stick to their tradition or follow both should be left to the individual and this applies to their children too I don't understand how it make a civilization hollow if a person follows multiple traditions if at the end of the day they are all hindu traditions
@@user-yj1ms3sg9h Every tradition and ritual is unique which will have metaphysical aspects of it which needs to practised by generations by the asthikas and I hope nasthikas wouldn't mind to do that just for the sake of discipline or heritage... and if we keep on mixing for generations, many will die a natural death and left over with the intrested one of the previous generation including languages. Yes Girl may speak her language but at any cost she must learn the guys language & the next generations should stick to the fathers language as priority & may also learn mother language if they are intrested especially male heirs should preserve the language of their ancestral lineage. Inter-linguistic marraiges may happen in some percentage not the entire population. So putting some cap on it doesn't create a problem ok & it should be considered as the civilizational responsibility
@@user-yj1ms3sg9h Marraige should preserve their language, traditions, rituals, Kul devtas, regional diversity, cooking receipies. This is what makes a civilization without that its hallow. And coming to tracking of genetic mutuation, just imagine if the society stops recording their jathi(caste) & Vans(lineage/surname) you might know your cousin sister/brother of your generation but you may not know your cousins of past 10 to 20 generations & may get married to someone who is close to your blood line. Inter-jathi thing is kind of ok to decrease the genetic mutuation but there should also be the common code of girl following the guys way to preserve the diversity of civilization & keep in mind that lineages also exist beyond jathis maybe in the form of gotra's.
Who thinks everyone is coming after him? Narcissist who thinks others are playing victim. Unfortunately, when someone overly indulges in ranting "my view is this, my view is that, I am same everywhere, but I can name names and show screenshots and show how bad they really are...blah, blah..." I find it very childish! Just like you comment, mock, or attack others and their ideas, they will do yours. Just accept that. And it is quite strange to hear about this Hindus playing victim... To narrate what happened in history is not victimhood. It is not an attempt to earn sympathy from policy-makers or international community or academia like other "victim groups" do. It is to shine light on real history that has been suppressed for a long time. Recently, Sai Deepak narrated the persecution of Brahmins in TN by the Periyar scoundrels and how it is perpetuated even today and one Gupta ji took him to task on X by accusing him of playing the victim. How condescending! Mr. Mehra is doing the same thing what Gupta ji has done. I mean, why?
Exactly….!!
U put it so well
Exactly … u put it out so well.
If you really want to blame the root cause of the problem then why don't do that??? I think the whole Brahmin hate stems from Brahmins control over Hinduism for centuries. They wrote manusmriti to impose caste hierarchy. Generations after generations this kept on peddling, so obviously there will be a mutual hate that arises.
we want to tackel this issue like savarkar style...and start inter caste marriages.
It is greatly opposed by upper caste
Just FYI kameen are also people
26:55 I am punjabi and didn't know "kanjar" was a caste 😱
*EVERYBODY IS CONDESENDING ON SOCIAL MEDIA... ANYTHING BUT SOCIAL ..
YOU CAN GIFT A GOLDEN GOOSE.. BUT U WONT GET A LIKE..
AS IF THEY ARE ALREADY THE 12TH GURU...!!!*
Personally, I feel reservations should be based on economic situation then caste system. Till we don’t get rid of reservations, we will never get rid of caste system. I agree with speaker. It ossifies it. I understand that some communities might need more help but it should be more nuanced than what we have today. A complete overhaul of reservations is needed of the hour!
That is a bad idea, it will enable muslim and Christian communities to acquire reservations purely through economic vulnerability. This will inturn promote population explosion. Reservations should be only be for marginalized and vulnerable tribes and hindu castes that have been deprived from any form of education and social upliftment.
Sai Deepak has said it right. State shouldn't give any reservations at all & treat everyone equal!
Reservations for marginalized Hindu jathi's should be & have to be given by the temples as a alternative for reservations and those reservations should be given on par with merit to produce scholars who can compete with world. Even economic reservations should be given by temples only for Hindus with some cap on it.
Reservations for M & C is not Temples problem nor the government being more secular & dharmic
SCs and STs reservation were never meant for poverty eradication, I have seen Dalits and Adivasis coming from financially sound background being still harrassed for their caste by so called upper caste people hence even courts refused to introduce the concept of Creamy layer to SCs and STs, that's the brutal reality whether you like it or not
@@Akon1998hell dont mix jathi with varna. varna can be higher but no jath is higher than any other jathi. Temples should still give reservations to jathis of SC & ST class specifically to the poor & even rich if their presence is not there
I agree with you, even Ambedkar wanted reservations to be time bounded. But now politicians use it as a tool for votes. They don't want to treat this issue at all.
I say again and again kushal u r not charvaka 3:59 ur sankyika nirishwarawadi...
I think I get what charvaka is, but what is the other philosophy you mention
Kushal mehra does not understand sampaedaya and their granths ye 8s mixing their rule penalty to all Hindus
Mihir Bhoj - the issue of the attempt of RSS ideologues and then BJP to co-opt the Gurjar community. This was protested by the Rajput communities. Off course this might sound comical to the point that some would look at this issue with condescension.
However, this is an important part of the Kshatriya history and how vested political interests would try historical revisionism in order to garner vote banks. So in this case, to garner a majority vote bank and absolutely ignore and on some cases actively harm, insult minority but historically land owning or elite communities that can include Brahmins, Rajputs etc.
In Gujarat, Rajasthan Rajputs have a sense of belittlement due to the tendency of the RSS and BJP blaming the ruling classes for many historical wrongs. This has been going on for decades and came to light with the Rupala issue. The Brahmins have got a similar treatment for decades and due to the close association of Kshatriya Rajput and Brahmin communities similar “brainwashing” attempts have gone on. Slurs like “baaman-vaad” or “Mughal-puts” have gained traction on social media especially as recent as when Rajputs and the Kshatriya pantheon came together in Gujarat to protest against ticket given to Shri Rupala. Personally, many don’t have issues against him but his attempt to garner Dalit votes by shitting on other communities, this electioneering hypocrisy by dividing communities is deplorable and unexpected from a person like Rupala but seems more in line with normal BJP vote gathering machinations we have got used to.
Few years back, liberal friends would never such slurs that has become the norm. Had to spend time explaining basic terms like Sati, Sati pratha, Jauhar, Saka and why the need to maintain peace was Raj Dharma and hence relations with the Mughals, why despite relations the Family Trees documents have crossed out all names of girls that crossed over, how this was not accepted by Rajputs as a whole but was need of the time.
A more rational approach would be needed in order to critically look at Indian history especially. Being labelled anti-national, Mughal lover, can’t make a difference in elections…this is a slap on the face to a proud community and makes us think twice of who we have supported all this while. Nationalism is a community identity and being questioned for that makes one frustrated.
Who is using these labels that you're mentioning?
This is just X lafda, are inconsequential on ground. Likes of Mahrana Pratap are revered by whole Hindu society, all Hindutvaadis.
Are Rajputs only Kshatriya community in India ?? Some of these Bigots don't considers Yadavas,Ahiras , Jats , Gurjars , Marathas , Reddys and Nairs Kshatriya .
This specific 'Mihir Bhoj' issue was indeed a sensitive issue for Gurjaras. Why Rajputs wants to appropriate others' history and impose their propoganda fucking everytime ??
@@pranav_chalotra All these sectarian fights are honestly comical. Nobody can trace any lineage that far back, nobody knows who their descendants exactly turned out to be, very hard to map this except if we somehow found mortal remains of MihirBhoj's Generals lol
They are heroes of our history and all should own them is the best we can do. Imagine some brahmins claiming Indians of other caste can't claim the heritage and legacies of Aryabhatta, Patanjali, Panini, Adi Shankara etc etc these are myopic BS, let's hope these kids grow out of it.
Even if you go by history rajputs isn't a caste on something the majority of their own clans were actually other castes for example the jadejas it is berg clear jadejas were intermix of Hindu samma and sodha rajput and samma were a subclan of jats or Chudasama in Gujarat, in one of their kings inscription it is written he was a yadava and a abhira(ahir). Rajputs by 14th-15th centriy bexams a homogenized group as those people who are ruling want themselves to be seen as not among the others so they build up this other caste or clan as rajputs. All there claims of descendants are alrigh but they hold no real value their even no problem in that but when you start to say ki hum hi hai Jo hai baki sab nakli hai tab dikkat ati hai the exact problem with Islam is that too.@@pranav_chalotra
@@humanityisdoomed agree to the comment that “hum hi hai..” absolutely
Historians and the communities can all debate and question origins and historical developments.
Maratha aarakshan ka bhi mudda uthao bhai
Lol, being vegetarian is not Hinduism.
The speaker here has learned his idea of jati varna from old California textbook that we fought (in 2014) to get rewritten still working towards getting correct representation of Hinduism in California text books. Varna was not a pyramid system. Outside of that assumption, this is a great podcast
Honestly, I don't think a got a lot out of this podcast - although I'm sure Akshar did. Kushal, great work in pushing the guest to force them to give the best version of their argument.
Unfortunately, I think Akshar's understanding of jaati-varna and its interplay with Indian society and politics is limited (not to mention the sampling bias when talking to people about how they think about their caste on his travels to India). I didn't learn anything particularly new or interesting from the podcast or his essay. His main argument seems to be: some politicians use caste to divide Hindu society for votes, which hampers a "development" agenda - quite a relevation! Just giving caste politics (especially of the post-Mandal sort) a term ("Jatitva") to juxtapose it against "Hindutva" doesn't mean something particularly original has been said. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but at least it came across that way in this conversation. His essay was far more substantive than his explanation here (perhaps the written word is his strength), but I am unsure how well he'd be able to defend some of his flimsier arguments when scrutinized, and whether he does indeed have something to _add_ to this particular conversation.
Just watch from 47:50 to witness the guest' complete lack of knowledge on caste. 😂
To say casteism is horizontal in urban areas is extremely false ,sc st segregation is increasing in urban areas due to migration and bad urban planning of cities with lower income housing .
So obc leaders from regional party are castiest but uppercaste leaders from national parties like congress are caste less they never work for the benefit of their own caste ?they cannot be anti hindu 😂😂
Upper caste leaders had monopoly over key positions during licence raj and congress high command.
Obc reservations was reaction against upper caste congress party which was against obc reservations till 1991
You talk about ~50% reservations but refuse to talk how congress with 2/3rd upper caste cm and all uppercaste pm with majorities screwed the economic opportunities of obc in the first place from 1947 to 1991, obc s were bound to react against upper caste politicians and thier shitty politics nothing more ironic than Immortalising V P Singh .
V p singh is a scammer period
@@sachithrao6353 Veer Savarkar ❌ Mafiveer Savarkar ✅ Period "."
@@vikblizzard3716 Gandhi was the same, lol. Read some of his letters to the Brits.
@@vikblizzard3716 that mafi saved hindus unlike your mahatma
Caste is identity proud if there is no caste then there is no Hindu Dharma