Count, another outstanding piece of Tolkien scholarship. I'm not surprised you found this difficult to beat into shape given the paucity of source material, but you've done an excellent job of extracting information via a close and attentive reading of the sources. This explains a lot about the background to the Lordship of Umbar upcoming in Wainriders, and it makes perfect sense to portray it as a very coherent political entity in light of what you've discussed in this video. It certainly seems that the naval tradition of the Corsairs was directly born out of the flight of the sons of Castamir and other Dúnedainic rebels to Umbar, with little to no naval tradition among the native Haradrim to speak of. This makes the actions of the Corsairs even more interesting, given that they are essentially a mishmash of people priginating from the mingling of native Haradrim, Black Númenoreans who had been established in Umbar since the Second Age, and "Faithful" Dúnedain of Gondor from the mid-Third Age onwards. It's particularly interesting to wonder about how the cultural beliefs of these peoples changed and melded in the early days of the Corsairs. Was there a tradition of Melkor worship in Umbar well-entrenched since the Second Age? Did this cause strife with the ostensibly "Faithful" Gondorian rebels, who resented the rule of the Line of Anárion but who would've acknowledged Eru and the Valar? Much to ponder in this part of the world!
Thank you! Your question about Melkor worship brings to mind this article by Chris Seeman, which I only found after putting this video together: web.archive.org/web/20201116031156/www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2003/feb/rethinkingumbar.html He comes to some different conclusions than I do regarding the interrelationship between the Corsairs and the Haradrim, but then I find myself rethinking their relationship as well. Seeman, if I remember right, sees both the Corsairs and the Haradrim as essentially being indistinguishable (at least at some point in their history), and sharing a tradition of Melkor- or Sauron-worship. For Seeman, the Pillar of Pharazon came down something like TA 2000 or so, and from that date onward we basically have to look at Umbar as essentially how Damrod sees it: a "Haradrian" realm. For me, I think there's potential to see some distinction between the peoples (at least in their aspirations and methods, if not in their actual ethnic makeup) even very late into the Third Age. As for Melkor-worship, it's tough to say of course, but Seeman has some interesting speculation in that arena as well. Again I'm not totally sure I agree with the conclusions, but it's worth checking out if you haven't seen it yet.
I know this is late but I just came across your channel and it looks very intriguing. I would love to see you cover another debated region, the West-march, fought over between Rohan and Dunland, and either allied with Gondor or Isengard. Its interesting the while originally it was mostly under the Horse Lord's control, by the time of the War of the Ring, the people, who had dunlendish blood, had allied with the White Hand. It was then taken back by Rohan. In early drafts, Tolkien wrote how some folk from Dunland answered the call of the muster of Rohan, and journeyed with them to fight alongside Gondor against the forces of Sauron, most likely at the Pelennor Fields, and possibly the Black Gate, Cair Andros or Minas Morgul. The fact Dunlendings redeemed themselves made me imagine that the West March was granted to them as an honorable gift, a fertile region where they could become herders instead of hill-folk.
That's a fascinating tidbit about the early drafts! It's a bit of a shame it didn't make it into the final, where the best we can see about the Dunlendings is that they (or some at least) repent and help with repairs & burials. I've had a chunk of notes on Helm & Freca, but haven't turned them into a script yet. It's a great story of course, and coming at it from a 'history of the West-march' perspective might be just the thing... thanks for the idea!
@@countmrvhs776 Yeah, you are very welcome! I hope you continue to do these types of videos; they are some of the longest and most in-depth Tolkien vids out there, and there a great pseudo-podcast to listen to! Since you haven't done many of these, their are plethoras upon plethoras of choices to choose from! From Dorwinion and King Bladorthin, to the Pre-Numenoreans before Arnor and Gondor, to the Western Isles off the havens of Lindon, it would become the Dagor Dagorath by the time one finished discussing Tolkien!
This amazing. Very well put together and interesting. I am very glad the algorithm recommended your video. I look forward to seeing more content from you!
Count, another outstanding piece of Tolkien scholarship. I'm not surprised you found this difficult to beat into shape given the paucity of source material, but you've done an excellent job of extracting information via a close and attentive reading of the sources. This explains a lot about the background to the Lordship of Umbar upcoming in Wainriders, and it makes perfect sense to portray it as a very coherent political entity in light of what you've discussed in this video. It certainly seems that the naval tradition of the Corsairs was directly born out of the flight of the sons of Castamir and other Dúnedainic rebels to Umbar, with little to no naval tradition among the native Haradrim to speak of.
This makes the actions of the Corsairs even more interesting, given that they are essentially a mishmash of people priginating from the mingling of native Haradrim, Black Númenoreans who had been established in Umbar since the Second Age, and "Faithful" Dúnedain of Gondor from the mid-Third Age onwards. It's particularly interesting to wonder about how the cultural beliefs of these peoples changed and melded in the early days of the Corsairs. Was there a tradition of Melkor worship in Umbar well-entrenched since the Second Age? Did this cause strife with the ostensibly "Faithful" Gondorian rebels, who resented the rule of the Line of Anárion but who would've acknowledged Eru and the Valar? Much to ponder in this part of the world!
Thank you!
Your question about Melkor worship brings to mind this article by Chris Seeman, which I only found after putting this video together: web.archive.org/web/20201116031156/www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2003/feb/rethinkingumbar.html
He comes to some different conclusions than I do regarding the interrelationship between the Corsairs and the Haradrim, but then I find myself rethinking their relationship as well.
Seeman, if I remember right, sees both the Corsairs and the Haradrim as essentially being indistinguishable (at least at some point in their history), and sharing a tradition of Melkor- or Sauron-worship. For Seeman, the Pillar of Pharazon came down something like TA 2000 or so, and from that date onward we basically have to look at Umbar as essentially how Damrod sees it: a "Haradrian" realm. For me, I think there's potential to see some distinction between the peoples (at least in their aspirations and methods, if not in their actual ethnic makeup) even very late into the Third Age.
As for Melkor-worship, it's tough to say of course, but Seeman has some interesting speculation in that arena as well. Again I'm not totally sure I agree with the conclusions, but it's worth checking out if you haven't seen it yet.
Truly top shelf Tolkien scholarship. I am in awe!
Thank you for the kind words!
Awesome! New Vid, been looking forward since the video of the Wainriders.
Thanks! This one took a lot to beat into shape for some reason.
I am so pissed that I never found out about this channel earlier. Impressive analysis.
I know this is late but I just came across your channel and it looks very intriguing.
I would love to see you cover another debated region, the West-march, fought over between Rohan and Dunland, and either allied with Gondor or Isengard. Its interesting the while originally it was mostly under the Horse Lord's control, by the time of the War of the Ring, the people, who had dunlendish blood, had allied with the White Hand. It was then taken back by Rohan. In early drafts, Tolkien wrote how some folk from Dunland answered the call of the muster of Rohan, and journeyed with them to fight alongside Gondor against the forces of Sauron, most likely at the Pelennor Fields, and possibly the Black Gate, Cair Andros or Minas Morgul. The fact Dunlendings redeemed themselves made me imagine that the West March was granted to them as an honorable gift, a fertile region where they could become herders instead of hill-folk.
That's a fascinating tidbit about the early drafts! It's a bit of a shame it didn't make it into the final, where the best we can see about the Dunlendings is that they (or some at least) repent and help with repairs & burials.
I've had a chunk of notes on Helm & Freca, but haven't turned them into a script yet. It's a great story of course, and coming at it from a 'history of the West-march' perspective might be just the thing... thanks for the idea!
@@countmrvhs776 Yeah, you are very welcome! I hope you continue to do these types of videos; they are some of the longest and most in-depth Tolkien vids out there, and there a great pseudo-podcast to listen to! Since you haven't done many of these, their are plethoras upon plethoras of choices to choose from! From Dorwinion and King Bladorthin, to the Pre-Numenoreans before Arnor and Gondor, to the Western Isles off the havens of Lindon, it would become the Dagor Dagorath by the time one finished discussing Tolkien!
This was such a pleasure to hear.
Such a pleasure to listen to.
This amazing. Very well put together and interesting. I am very glad the algorithm recommended your video. I look forward to seeing more content from you!
Very promising.