"It used to be a class V but now it's easier." What, they dammed and dredged it, and now it's a lake? I agree with you entirely. I am really glad that the AWA had you working for them. You're just the kind of person we need in there. Thanks for all the volunteer hours you've put in. You're nothing short of awesome!
Lol thanks! It is true that more people are paddling 4-5 than ever, but that is a result of improved gear and technique, not the rapids getting less technical or safer.
I think I agree with your general idea. I'd say most of the time I'd describe hard lines on easier rapids is practice, practice, practice when the consequences are low. Just skimming the AW list, an example I'd disagree with is Blossom Bar (class III) on the Rogue River. It's one straightforward move and not a hard rapid, but people mess up there all the time. Enough people have died that it should probably be class IV, even just so people take it seriously. Anyways, I've been browsing for a new slicy boat, so I'm looking forward to the rest of your series.
Point is, you can't describe the whole thing reliably. Vague by design. Yes. High consequence activity. Everybody's got stories in this sport. It's why it's so awesome.
Great vid, I just got into whitewater late last year and the guy teaching me is always scouting meat grinder on the lower Russell fork or least when I’m with him. Very lucky to have a guy teaching me that’s not just teaching the basics but also on safety. He says the same thing you do, the river can change or you can have wood. Always check especially class 3 and up. I’d rather check then be pinned or end up in a spot I wished I wouldn’t be in. Always good to learn how to read the river and know the features in my opinion
Good to hear you're in good hands! Scouting is always good, but mostly this pertains to new runs. You'll reach a point where you're comfortable running your home runs from eddy to eddy without getting out
Just watched this again. I think there is a bit of an issue in the sport where we can sometimes define our skilled based on the rivers we run, so I paddle class 4 so I'm a class 4 boater. But the best slalom paddlers might paddle a lot of class 3 but you couldn't call it them class 3 boaters. Maybe there is a need to separate how we think of our skills vs the river we run. Westgarth talks a lot about learning/training terrain and performance terrain, so you practice on class 3 and execute on class 4 etc
When I explain how hard a river or rapid is I usually explain the hardest move. If the paddler isn't worried then we are good to go. Really though short of a standardized test of some sort (That no one is going to take) there will never be a scientific way to grade paddlers. You either trust that person or you don't.
To me the biggest danger is inconsistency. A rapid rating should only be lowered or raised when it isn't on par with others in its same category. For example, I think AW rating Boxcar Falls on the NFFB a 5.1 (unless they're talking about the Blind Date line) is ridiculous when the main line is significantly easier than any other 5.1 rated rapid and most other 5.0s on the website. Granted most boaters running Boxcar will know better, but it's just the most prominent example I can think of.
Well if your AW membership is paid up you can now go and submit edits. Be prepared for some blow-back though. People seem to take it as an attack on their paddling ability/ego when you lower a rating.
It would be useful if the rating system specified with greater detail why it carries a particular class. For example, what would you rate a class II rapid with a sieve that could be deadly if you swam (old frog rock.) How would you rate a class III run through a narrow canyon that is extremely isolated? I heard a suggestion, and agree, that a better rating system would specify not just the difficulty of the rapid, but also consequence and isolation factors as well. Could have three numbers instead of just one.
This is why we have river descriptions. If you're dropping in expedition style with no beta on a run which is in a guide book or listed on AW who's fault is that?
Corran Addison once proposed a rating system which incorporates three separately rated categories in order to better describe a rapid - technical, difficulty, danger and exposure. Here is Corran's video making the argument: th-cam.com/video/96Xmr5KQPec/w-d-xo.html
Was looking this one again. The only thing that could be interesting to change is the 'in case of emergency' rating. eg: you screw up (break a leg on a recon or something), how difficult is it to get out/get assistance. Somehow putting this in a codified system might be interesting. Don't ask me how this can be done in a consitant and easy way ;-)
I think you're putting the basic responsibility of knowing where you are on AW instead of the paddler. At some point we have to say the obvious- "This is an extreme sport, not an amusement park ride."
i took my walmart radt down the upper gauley in wv, i busted the raft and the walmart life jackers werent that good, but i can swim, lost the raft, and everything in it, id say the sea eagle is a good boat tho, it didnt bust and sink til almost the end, so that river is class 3 and the sea eagle is a good starter boat to run class 5, pretty darn fun.
@@AlexBarham no way man, true story, lost the floorboard and everything, before the front of the sea eagle finally popped at iron ring, it sunk, i swam n we walked me n my cousin, but we made it. Beat up kinda but the sea eagle made it... almost.
it was after that i took kayak lessons and was the proud owner of a nomad for years, and now they dont make it anymore.. tragic, best boat ever in my opinion.
@@AlexBarham speaking of which help me out man, because no one around here is totally sure, but did they replace the nomad with the code, or is it just flat out discontinued along with the mamba.?
You're right. It may become easier as you do it more often. But it doesn't change class. The danger is still there. It hasn't changed. You have just honed your skills. You're right as I said. If you learn a new jump on a bike or skiing it's still dangerous, you've just learned how. 😉
I don't agree with the definition of class 2 not needing scouting. Sometimes you get into heavily wooded creeks with tight blind turns where you have to scout for wood. Sometimes you see a little branch sticking out of a rapid and you to scout to see if it's part of a log or just a small willow. I don't think that should make the rapids class 3.
@@AlexBarham No they are not. I have seen dangerous strainers in class 1. You get narrow fast moving creeks with blind turns that you have to scout for safety.
@@JustinBaker2567 Short of paddling exclusively on artificial courses I don't know how you can avoid an element of the unknown. Let's say you did scout every inch before you ran it. I've seen strainers drop into place without warning in seconds. If you aren't comfortable with your crew and skill level to adapt to challenges then all you can do is not put on.
Alex Barham you must run different types of water than me. Just a couple of weeks ago we were in a very narrow section of a creek that was super heavily vegetated. Lots of brush and tree branches extending into the creek. At one point the creek sped up and took a very sharp right hand turn. It was a completley blind turn. I stopped and scouted it for wood. If there had been wood in the blind turn and I ran it, I could have been instantly pinned. This was a fast moving class 1 section. I have also seen class 2 rapids where small waves flow over partially submerged logs and its hard to tell from upstream. If you are running frequently run larger volume rivers with well established beta then I understand a lack of scouting class 2s.
"It used to be a class V but now it's easier."
What, they dammed and dredged it, and now it's a lake?
I agree with you entirely. I am really glad that the AWA had you working for them. You're just the kind of person we need in there. Thanks for all the volunteer hours you've put in. You're nothing short of awesome!
Lol thanks! It is true that more people are paddling 4-5 than ever, but that is a result of improved gear and technique, not the rapids getting less technical or safer.
@@AlexBarham Exactly!
Thanks for this! I appreciate your clarity of thought.
You're very welcome!
I think I agree with your general idea. I'd say most of the time I'd describe hard lines on easier rapids is practice, practice, practice when the consequences are low.
Just skimming the AW list, an example I'd disagree with is Blossom Bar (class III) on the Rogue River. It's one straightforward move and not a hard rapid, but people mess up there all the time. Enough people have died that it should probably be class IV, even just so people take it seriously.
Anyways, I've been browsing for a new slicy boat, so I'm looking forward to the rest of your series.
The list is from 1998 or something so perhaps there was a good event that shifted features.
Axiom review will be out soon!
Thank you, Alex! Great video and great insights. Plus, you reminded me that I need to renew my AWA membership. Now I'm a member again. 😁
Well done! Glad you enjoyed it!
Point is, you can't describe the whole thing reliably. Vague by design. Yes. High consequence activity. Everybody's got stories in this sport. It's why it's so awesome.
Kinda. Point is when in doubt scout
Great vid, I just got into whitewater late last year and the guy teaching me is always scouting meat grinder on the lower Russell fork or least when I’m with him. Very lucky to have a guy teaching me that’s not just teaching the basics but also on safety. He says the same thing you do, the river can change or you can have wood. Always check especially class 3 and up. I’d rather check then be pinned or end up in a spot I wished I wouldn’t be in. Always good to learn how to read the river and know the features in my opinion
Good to hear you're in good hands! Scouting is always good, but mostly this pertains to new runs. You'll reach a point where you're comfortable running your home runs from eddy to eddy without getting out
@@AlexBarham yeah I think he does that just to teach me lines and how to read the river
Sounds like you've got a good, patient coach then! Be sure to reward him with beer!
You are very articulate Alex.
Thanks Lisa!
Just watched this again. I think there is a bit of an issue in the sport where we can sometimes define our skilled based on the rivers we run, so I paddle class 4 so I'm a class 4 boater. But the best slalom paddlers might paddle a lot of class 3 but you couldn't call it them class 3 boaters. Maybe there is a need to separate how we think of our skills vs the river we run. Westgarth talks a lot about learning/training terrain and performance terrain, so you practice on class 3 and execute on class 4 etc
When I explain how hard a river or rapid is I usually explain the hardest move. If the paddler isn't worried then we are good to go. Really though short of a standardized test of some sort (That no one is going to take) there will never be a scientific way to grade paddlers. You either trust that person or you don't.
To me the biggest danger is inconsistency. A rapid rating should only be lowered or raised when it isn't on par with others in its same category. For example, I think AW rating Boxcar Falls on the NFFB a 5.1 (unless they're talking about the Blind Date line) is ridiculous when the main line is significantly easier than any other 5.1 rated rapid and most other 5.0s on the website. Granted most boaters running Boxcar will know better, but it's just the most prominent example I can think of.
Well if your AW membership is paid up you can now go and submit edits. Be prepared for some blow-back though. People seem to take it as an attack on their paddling ability/ego when you lower a rating.
It would be useful if the rating system specified with greater detail why it carries a particular class. For example, what would you rate a class II rapid with a sieve that could be deadly if you swam (old frog rock.) How would you rate a class III run through a narrow canyon that is extremely isolated? I heard a suggestion, and agree, that a better rating system would specify not just the difficulty of the rapid, but also consequence and isolation factors as well. Could have three numbers instead of just one.
This is why we have river descriptions. If you're dropping in expedition style with no beta on a run which is in a guide book or listed on AW who's fault is that?
Corran Addison once proposed a rating system which incorporates three separately rated categories in order to better describe a rapid - technical, difficulty, danger and exposure. Here is Corran's video making the argument: th-cam.com/video/96Xmr5KQPec/w-d-xo.html
@@wheresaldocanoe Makes a lot of sense. I've been trying to get to know the class rating system and it just seems too vague.
Was looking this one again.
The only thing that could be interesting to change is the 'in case of emergency' rating.
eg: you screw up (break a leg on a recon or something), how difficult is it to get out/get assistance. Somehow putting this in a codified system might be interesting. Don't ask me how this can be done in a consitant and easy way ;-)
I think you're putting the basic responsibility of knowing where you are on AW instead of the paddler. At some point we have to say the obvious- "This is an extreme sport, not an amusement park ride."
i took my walmart radt down the upper gauley in wv, i busted the raft and the walmart life jackers werent that good, but i can swim, lost the raft, and everything in it, id say the sea eagle is a good boat tho, it didnt bust and sink til almost the end, so that river is class 3 and the sea eagle is a good starter boat to run class 5, pretty darn fun.
Troll spotted lol
@@AlexBarham no way man, true story, lost the floorboard and everything, before the front of the sea eagle finally popped at iron ring, it sunk, i swam n we walked me n my cousin, but we made it. Beat up kinda but the sea eagle made it... almost.
it was after that i took kayak lessons and was the proud owner of a nomad for years, and now they dont make it anymore.. tragic, best boat ever in my opinion.
@@AlexBarham speaking of which help me out man, because no one around here is totally sure, but did they replace the nomad with the code, or is it just flat out discontinued along with the mamba.?
Well said.
Thanks Mike!
You're right. It may become easier as you do it more often. But it doesn't change class. The danger is still there. It hasn't changed. You have just honed your skills. You're right as I said. If you learn a new jump on a bike or skiing it's still dangerous, you've just learned how. 😉
Thanks!
You can change the difficulty level by just running whilst seriously sleep-deprived, for example.
I don't agree with the definition of class 2 not needing scouting. Sometimes you get into heavily wooded creeks with tight blind turns where you have to scout for wood. Sometimes you see a little branch sticking out of a rapid and you to scout to see if it's part of a log or just a small willow. I don't think that should make the rapids class 3.
Strainers are part of whitewater. I don't think the average paddler has ever scouted Class 2.
@@AlexBarham No they are not. I have seen dangerous strainers in class 1. You get narrow fast moving creeks with blind turns that you have to scout for safety.
@@JustinBaker2567 Short of paddling exclusively on artificial courses I don't know how you can avoid an element of the unknown.
Let's say you did scout every inch before you ran it. I've seen strainers drop into place without warning in seconds.
If you aren't comfortable with your crew and skill level to adapt to challenges then all you can do is not put on.
Alex Barham you must run different types of water than me. Just a couple of weeks ago we were in a very narrow section of a creek that was super heavily vegetated. Lots of brush and tree branches extending into the creek. At one point the creek sped up and took a very sharp right hand turn. It was a completley blind turn. I stopped and scouted it for wood. If there had been wood in the blind turn and I ran it, I could have been instantly pinned. This was a fast moving class 1 section. I have also seen class 2 rapids where small waves flow over partially submerged logs and its hard to tell from upstream. If you are running frequently run larger volume rivers with well established beta then I understand a lack of scouting class 2s.
You only get one chance to run a rapid blind
Amen! There is definitely a time and place for that
you forgot Class Fun
The horror lol