I've been an automotive tech for 17 years and I have never seen anybody explain suspension geometry so well. I would say in most modern automotive shops people do not understand Ackerman angle... scrub radius etc.
Damn here I am struggling to install parts specifically designed for my car and you're out here designing and fabbing up basically an entire car. Amazing to watch your progress, can't wait to see it move!
Just designed and built my own caravan. So much trial and error with something much more basic than a race car. Not sure how you foresee and manage technical issues so comprehensively. Just awesome.
Hi, could you tell us a bit about your education and maybe your job? I’m simply blown away by your video’s and just curious. It shows that you spend a lot of effort in both building the car and making the video’s. Thank you very much!
Education is in electrical engineering, worked a few years in electrical aerospace also a bit in cars. Currently went back to school for a bit for software engineering, which gives me a bit of time on the side to work on this stuff
SK8215 Hi, I would have guessed mechanical engineering :). Makes it even more impressive. Can’t wait to see the project develop and eventually see how the car performs. Oh yeah, I think you’re a great educator as well. Btw I also studied software engineering but that was a long time ago. All the best!
@@GBHeiserYour saying.. that schooling/formal education isn't required to obtain similar knowledge. BUT An education is usually assumed when someone appears to have a deep understanding on many complex subjects, especially modern ones. Now include that the fact that the youtuber is relatively young and it's an easy assumption to make.
Cullen Crisp Ok maybe not a formal education and many not at the academic level. On the other hand the way he explains things and how he weights pros and cons for design decisions shows that he’s on top of this and that his thinking is high level. The fun thing is that he combines it with a lot of practical skills AND makes excellent video’s of it.
This is a great series! It's really terrific to see people who are very knowledgeable sharing their knowledge and experience with other enthusiasts. Thank you so much!
Taking the photos and making the calculations? Im TOTALLY Impressed. FANTASTIC Idea This is why race car builders contribute so much to the street car world Smart People making cars better and at the same time safer.
Normally you'd design the suspension first, then your frame. You've done it backwards, and you don't have good load paths (pick up points in the middle of a tube instead of at a node). You will also have issues with mounting push rods to those spindly lower control arms.
Thanks, yeh I know welding isn't the best idea. Would have preferred billet aluminum if I had the extra time, but judging by the low loads this thing will be under compared to its stock application, I think it will hold up fine
@@xfmotorsports that's not how it works, that's not how any of this works....welding a cast part can lead to catastrophic failure under even light loads.
SK8215 You have seriously underestimated the loads generated in a race car, yes the vehicle is lighter than its donor parts car but racing will push all these to the limit I could not imagine the FIA allowing this onto a race track
Yes, be very very careful with stressed welded Cast parts, especially in the steering with high speeds with high grip levels. Great project, and great learnings to be had..
Dude, this is awesome, I just started watching your suspension's theory videos and now I've seen the whole project you've done, it's really impressive and for sure that I have to do this at some point of my life. A dream man.
you sir are a genius, been watching your buildup process and what a great project, your knowledge and skills are highly commendable, thanks for sharing (SUBSCRIBED) :)
A MIG welder is wrong for this He risks not getting enough penetration with the thickness of metal involved here.Unless he has a 400 amp welder which I doubt.Stick welding would have been much better.
Yes, some of the angles are a little suss too. In realty fabricating an complete upright would be better. Or simply find a stub axle that is suitable. Toe out on turns makes a car turn better. Steering arm length usually governs that.
Yep, thought the same... Clearly not a mechanical engineer and no automotive engineer either. I wouldn't drive that car with the shown suspension design.
I know right! that weld boundary is going to be so brittle. he did even try to address the issue. Can he heat it back up and peen it then let it cool slowly in sand or something? i hope he is driving slow when it fails.
It doesn't seem like there's very much suspension travel mounting the heim joints in that flat direction, if you turn them 90 degrees they won't go into bind if the suspension travels farther than you've designed it to.
Doesn’t seem he’s necessarily looking for 8-12” of travel. I’d bet he could probably have 3-6” of travel per corner and still end out with a great handling car if paired with a stiffer suspension setup. Essentially end up being a big aerodynamic go cart.
Alex Vine ya, I get that, but in the start of the video it looks like it only travels 3-4 inches, and if you’ve ever seen the curbing in the corners of most tracks that will bottom out the Heim joints when you hit that curbing when used at the plane they are installed im
Absolutely sensational videos! Wow! I love the way that you used the two photographs to determine steering requirements! I hope you make another car after this one! Maybe you and the Warranty (Tavarish) can do a collaboration or something! Thank you!
haven't heard so nice detailed info about geometry - plus that idea to demo it on the real half done axle, where ou can move it frealy, is really great. Thanks !
I strongly recommend using the spacers for the rose joints you are using. I am not much of a racecar builder but i've seen my share of snapping the stems off of those when people hit curbs too hard.
that would also allow adjustment without requiring the arm to deflect. the way he has the arms welded any length change requires the arm to deflect to create a new triangle
At first i thought strange that you mounted the lower ball joint upside down but now i understand :) the lower arm will be the mount point for the damper/spring unlike most road cars were the shock and spring mount on top were your upper ball joint is. that way it will prevent the ball joint from separating itself because the weight of the car will push it downward (hope i made sense)... making the wishbones with thin tube was very smart because they will only take pushing and pulling forces, no twisting forces will be there so they only need to resist compression and pulling...very nice engineering there. but if you were to fit an ARB attached to middle of each wishbone like on most road cars the tubes would bend..that is how you optimize for weight saving and efficiency, very nice
A thing I've been thinking about recently is why not put the transmission on the rear axle? Maybe the easiest way to do it is to reuse fwd audi transmission with its integrated differential and then mod the cv joints to fit the suspension you need.
Guess what? You helped my fix my '98 E55 Estate (or wagon) I had coolant mixing with my oil and was think I needed head gaskets or something, but it was the coolant passage o-rings in the timing cover! Engine saved and not too much work really. Thanks man! Love the vids. I watch every single one
Absolutely amazing series. I'm really blown away by all of your work. You mentioned releasing a Part 3 of the suspension series, talking about trailing link setup and other styles, is that video still in the works? I'd love to see that too
Something I would have recommended is welding threaded rod to the ball joint and putting threaded inserts in both ends of the control arm tubes with opposite thread directions. That way you wouldn't have to unbolt the heim joints to adjust caster and camber. Just crack the jam nuts loose and spin the tube to make adjustments.
Also you're going to need some sort of pivot at the ball joint end for the tubes because shortening or lengthening the tubes for adjustment will also change the angle where the control arm tube meets the mtg point on the frame.
Great job designing the suspension. Came across this cause I'm interested in makeing A-Arm suspension for a VW Thing. Welding on cast iron that is as structurally critical as this isn't a good idea. Making steel spindles from scratch would be much more accurate and more importantly much much much safer.
This suspension setup looks great, but if any of the arms need to be adjusted the rose joint will not correspond with the bolt hole, so to get the bolt through the mounting point and the joint arms will need to be forced which is introducing a stress point, believe me I've been there.....
Impressive work on the spindles. Having done this, would it have been easier to fabricate spindles from scratch? Just wondering what your thoughts were. Thx
I wouldn't use regular screws for the wishbone mounting but proper bolts. Also your balljoints seem to have a tad too much play. They're perfect when you can barely move them by hand. Also expect them to wear out fast.
I have a few questions that I hope you would reply: 1) How did you measure the angles while you assembled them? 2) How was the angle virtually determined with your track width? 3) How did you design the chassis based on weight distribution? 4) Is the M14 screw enough to hold the arms to the chassis and your front to middle portion chassis fixture? I'm probably going to go through all these process in making a Formula student car with a 390 cc engine probably and i'm pretty much new..
Simply incredible, what program have you used to simulate lenghts angles and all of it. Or which would you suggest. Second thing, the lenght of whisbones is based of what factor?
I think your suspension is too weak! I built a race car my self and a 20 mm unibal is a minumim size for this kind of power weight and tyre size. For example picture the tyre blocking when you go 200 km/h a 20 kg mass of the wheel and tyre is stoping instantly those small joint won't be holding it. Same thing with the tube suspension and the bolt connections of your chassis. Use TIG welder instead of MIG, the weld hardens because its cools so rapidly and its brutal with TIG this isn't a problem.
My calculation was based on forces on the contact patch. This setup should be strong enough to take this car up to 4G's in the corners at 75% weight transfer. That results in a 22kN force on the lower control arm ball joint. I don't think the car will reach that. Agree with you on the TIG welding though. That's definitively the better way
SK8215 But what about bumps? Wouldn’t they cause much higher forces? Imagine you going of the track at high speed. I’ve no knowledge nor experience, just my imagination ;)
@@xfmotorsports Calculation is a starting point but I tell you something from my experience. I built an e36 v8 drift car with extended lower arms what is a laser cutted s355 steel whit 65x50 steel section at it weakest pont and has 50 mm clearance from the wheel well and its stil touches it over time and bend the arm slightly so I have to adjust the aligment. Your choise I wish you the best.
hey, I was lucky enough to stumble upon this magnificent video serie, and would just like to say that this looks like a hell of an awesome build! Also, I reckon you could easily make oval tubes if you made yourself some dies and just rolled standard tubes between two dies of a greater diameter, until you reached the desired oval shape:P
sub'd. Planning on making my own car as well in 3yrs time after I come back from Japan, thinking of using either s54, s65 or s85 motor (yeah.. BMW guy here). and it'll be mid engine is what I plan. was thinking of the same suspension set-up for the fronts as well as you. nice to see similar thing to what I am thinking about. probably will go to school w/ in this 3 yrs or so engineering to understand how things are designed even further.
i am not a hater, but have knowledge of building suspension components. first of all dont weld bits onto stub axles ( might suit what you want to achieve but suitable for road use) so you have 600hp engine,, brakes that can develop twice that in negative g's (braking effort) tires that have grip from hell!! then wish bones that will only support 150hp . have thought about cornering loads? or hitting a bump while fully loaded in a corner? perhaps now would be a good time to purchase some excellent books on suspension geomatry or racecar construction. it will save you time, money, and possibly your life or some one elses.
My choice of material was based of the stresses I calculated those components would be under assuming the worst case scenario. Thats how all other race cars are built. There is no relation between power and the strength of a non driven front suspension, so maybe this would be a good time to read through your book collection again
purcahse some books? is that a joke or what? have you seen the content of this channel, this individual clearly knows what he is doing, not just a ricer kid slappin shit together and trying if it works...welding steel bar to cast is not a problem if you preheat or peen the weld as you go along to avoid cracks...fusion of the 2 materials is achieved... i would not use mig but it WILL hold, stop trying to slow the progress on this fkn haters. like he said power has nothing to do with stress on the front suspension because its a rwd car...the important thing here that needs to be taken into account when calculating for strenght of the suspension linkages and arms is the mass of the car...not the power.... you take power into account when choosing a gearbox and differential....this car will be much more lighter than the original so lighter duty components can be used, also the original car is a mercedes so its always very very overengineered, with that taken into account there wouldn't even be any need for math, you could just eyeball it and it would not break
With the engine bolted to the frame, what are the engineered sacrifical weak points in the chassis? The reason im asking is that in the event of a crash, or even light hit/rub, how do you ensure you dont completly destroy your car and engine and transmission, rather than simply a control arm?
The tubes are actually different wall thicknesses and there will be an aluminum crumple zone in the radiator area. In a crash the front part will crumple before anything else.
f1 and certain prototype classes use composite crash boxes. Making them yourself doesn't seem impossible, they are just layer cakes of carbon fiber and honeycomb. The deformation of the honeycomb and delamination of the carbon fiber dissipate kinetic energy and dramatically reduce the deceleration peak forces.
The motor is highly displaced to the base, there will not be enough adhesion on the front axle. If you build the suspension on the wishbone, then the shock absorbers are better to adapt the pushroad system
Fusion 360 is pretty popular and it can also simulate stresses. Pen, paper, and a calculator can do just as well though and in my opinion is itself much easier. Though if you are already proficient with any given cad software it can improve your efficiency.
This video makes me think about what I can do to improve suspension geometry for my 350z. Then I realize that you can't change much unless than ride hight, camber and toe...
The chassis gets narrower towards the front so the suspension pick up points are not parallel to the front-rear line. I see this type of setup in many offroad cars. What does it do and how do you figure out the suspension geometry in 2D front plane please?
Shouldn't those heim joints be vertical so the control arms can reciprocate up and down (more) and give the suspension/spindle more travel? I'm sure there's a reason for them being mounted horizontally, just curious.
It's stronger using them this way. No bending forces on the threads, just tension or compression. For low travel applications this is the preferred way
SK8215 good to know for future reference thanks! Will you be reenforcing the mounting points for the a arms with something similar to a strut bar? Now that I’m typing this I suppose the shocks will help absorb some of the load the A arm mounts experience at full travel? (also what type of load would that be considered on those mounts at full travel, just rotational force? sorry I’m a noob lol). Subbed for all of the good info here as I may be doing some fabrication similar to this in the future, thanks for the reply!
I was about to say about the valve cover solid engine mount idea...saw that myself on some old F3 cars i believe. Be careful however as these engines were not designed to be stressed members...especially if the block is aluminum. I have seen old F1 v10 cylinder heads that basically are cast in the shape of an i-beam to aid in torsional rigidity... Here in the states the drag racers and NASCAR boys like to use engine plates... I saw a cadillac cts-v road racer back in the day use a motor plate designed from a billet of aluminum...weight relieved and everything... Look into that...this might work better for you... Otherwise I just saw this... Good luck...these type of projects can make you wanna tear your head out...! BTW...are you using ANSYS...?
You obviously seem quite smart although the loads those ball joints will go under will be far more than 4G You have not factored shock loads which may exceed 20G
That's not how it works. I'll explain the calculations more in the next video, 20G is something you only see in a big impact. Even the wheels and tires don't survive forces like that
Get a steering rack from a left hand drive car and flip it around. It will spin the right direction for a rear mounted rack on a right hand drive car..
Why didn't you use rod ends on both sides of the control arms? These are the most damaged part on the car, as you will find out. They should be easier to swap out when you bend them. Just saying. Also, without rod ends on both sides, you will not be able to adjust them quickly, while attached to the car. But, you are knocking it out of the park!!! Cheers!
You need to come look at one of cars I work on and how they mount on my channel. I believe you need a couple ways to adjust roll centers for track tuning. We use all adjustable mounting points, control arm lengths and ball joint heights.
Thats not true. Axial loads or forces at improper angles is what bends them. This is the way they are meant to be used. Have a look at any f1, lmp or indy car suspension
@@xfmotorsports or even an off road truggy suspension. the force you are resisting is not gravity on the side of the joint it is the braking loads etc. I agree the joints are oriented correctly
There’s a tool called a ball joint reamer. It’s a tapered reamer that perfectly match the male taper on the ball joint. Too late to help you. But maybe someone will read this and save a little time and effort.
So to adjust the length of the control arms, you have to remove the bolts through the Heim joint, then rotate the whole joint in 180 degree increments. Is that correct?
done right they are gonna be strong and the quality of the casting I guess. some cast parts sucks since they aren't as good quality and they got air pockets but I imagine mercedes cast parts will have minimal air pockets on their parts.
True , true...theyre actually forged. And since they are hard and robust they probably must resist some bending forces also which property after welding will be probably diminished right?
I don’t think I would get in it personally, but I will watch with great interest! He seems to work by Destructive iteration on his last car... hopefully he has plenty of run off at the tracks he is going to drive at....
Those spindels are cast or forged, are you sure that its weldable? for cast there are some sticks for stickwelders who does the job i dont know about mig tho.
That's why he preheats them I presume. Cast welds fairly easily, but may crack because of the temperature coefficient. You may also use silicon bronze, its way softer and can take the stress when the part cools down but is a bit weaker, so just use a thick weld.
The weld filler should be as strong (if not stronger) and more maluable than the cast iron, the fusion shouldn't be a problem, so as long as you avoid stress cracks from the temperature expansion you'll have a strong enough part.
At school they say this basically because they don't want to explain all the intricacies with welding cast, just like your parents say "that's just the way it is" (or the priest says "God works in mysterious ways").
Are mercedes spindles/knuckles made of steel and not iron? I've always been under the understanding (mind you American trucks) that spindle/knuckles are cast or nodular iron and can't be welded in a way that would make them reliable.
If you need to tig anything you are welcome to borrow my tig if you promise to bring it back :) I'm in Scarborough. I have a mini lathe Id let you borrow but the motor controller has burnt up. I though for sure you would use some aluminum audi knuckles maybe...see those all over the junkyards :)
Thanks for the offer! Didn't know you were in Scarborough, that's only 40min away form me. Will keep that in mind if I require tig. I was thinking billet knuckles before but would have taken way too long doing that. It's a bit of a rushed project for now because I really want to get the car driving before September lol. After that I'll keep improving along
Do you think the chassis twisting forces will have a detrimental effect on the engine? Leverage from the chassis end to the block can be quite high and the tolerances in the engine are quite low. Maybe extra bracing will be needed. Will have to see if it works..
Your videos are amazing man. I'm a huge car guy and diy guy myself, seriously impressive work! You should have a million subscribers!! Just wondering Which cad software are you using to model the car?
How you plan to change alligment (for example camber) in that setup? I don't think that I see points for that. Wfrom what I see there's only removal of balljoints > turning joint by 180 degrees > putting back again.
@@xfmotorsports If that's enough for you for adjustments I accept that. For me it's just not really handy. It will be much harder to setup geometry correctly. I think you can still now make it more adjustable with threaded pipe (will be heavier). It's called "Roman Screw" or something similar.
yup...saw that two...normally is used a threaded rod with reversed thread on each end and a hex in the middle (dont know how its called) then some counter-nuts...it allows on the fly adjustment with only one wrench no need to even jack the car up.
The thin sheets connecting the wishbones to the rod ends on tire side look a bit flimsy to me. The lateral loads going through that thin part could cause it to buckle. The weld seams also look way too short/narrow. Maybe he will add more bracing when he adds the spring mechanism?
I've been an automotive tech for 17 years and I have never seen anybody explain suspension geometry so well. I would say in most modern automotive shops people do not understand Ackerman angle... scrub radius etc.
Damn here I am struggling to install parts specifically designed for my car and you're out here designing and fabbing up basically an entire car. Amazing to watch your progress, can't wait to see it move!
Just designed and built my own caravan. So much trial and error with something much more basic than a race car. Not sure how you foresee and manage technical issues so comprehensively. Just awesome.
Hi, could you tell us a bit about your education and maybe your job? I’m simply blown away by your video’s and just curious.
It shows that you spend a lot of effort in both building the car and making the video’s.
Thank you very much!
Education is in electrical engineering, worked a few years in electrical aerospace also a bit in cars. Currently went back to school for a bit for software engineering, which gives me a bit of time on the side to work on this stuff
SK8215 Hi,
I would have guessed mechanical engineering :). Makes it even more impressive. Can’t wait to see the project develop and eventually see how the car performs. Oh yeah, I think you’re a great educator as well. Btw I also studied software engineering but that was a long time ago.
All the best!
@@Conservator. You realize you don't need an education to do this stuff right?
@@GBHeiserYour saying.. that schooling/formal education isn't required to obtain similar knowledge. BUT An education is usually assumed when someone appears to have a deep understanding on many complex subjects, especially modern ones. Now include that the fact that the youtuber is relatively young and it's an easy assumption to make.
Cullen Crisp
Ok maybe not a formal education and many not at the academic level. On the other hand the way he explains things and how he weights pros and cons for design decisions shows that he’s on top of this and that his thinking is high level.
The fun thing is that he combines it with a lot of practical skills AND makes excellent video’s of it.
This is a great series! It's really terrific to see people who are very knowledgeable sharing their knowledge and experience with other enthusiasts. Thank you so much!
Taking the photos and making the calculations? Im TOTALLY Impressed. FANTASTIC Idea This is why race car builders contribute so much to the street car world Smart People making cars better and at the same time safer.
Most dope brother! Cant wait to ride along with the rest of your build. Thanks for being so specific!
Normally you'd design the suspension first, then your frame. You've done it backwards, and you don't have good load paths (pick up points in the middle of a tube instead of at a node). You will also have issues with mounting push rods to those spindly lower control arms.
Incredible video. Very well done. I don't recommend welding cast parts that could be catastrophic though.
Thanks, yeh I know welding isn't the best idea. Would have preferred billet aluminum if I had the extra time, but judging by the low loads this thing will be under compared to its stock application, I think it will hold up fine
@@xfmotorsports that's not how it works, that's not how any of this works....welding a cast part can lead to catastrophic failure under even light loads.
SK8215
You have seriously underestimated the loads generated in a race car, yes the vehicle is lighter than its donor parts car but racing will push all these to the limit
I could not imagine the FIA allowing this onto a race track
@@Avboden while I'm not sure I'd weld them. They are forged and not cast,you can see the forging lines from being made.
Yes, be very very careful with stressed welded Cast parts, especially in the steering with high speeds with high grip levels. Great project, and great learnings to be had..
Masters degree in automotive engineering, this is something I always wanted. Thanks
Can't wait to see this beast come alive. Well done sir! Your technical prowess in very refreshing. Glad I stumbled upon your channel.
Wonderful progress. Excited for this build. Great to see a very competent person build and explain this beast.
Dude, this is awesome, I just started watching your suspension's theory videos and now I've seen the whole project you've done, it's really impressive and for sure that I have to do this at some point of my life. A dream man.
you sir are a genius, been watching your buildup process and what a great project, your knowledge and skills are highly commendable, thanks for sharing (SUBSCRIBED) :)
I'm really impress by all your knowledges and skills. I never see so much talent in the same person. Keep going my dear you'r the best!
Absolutely amazing videos. Your knowledge is impressive. The best video series I have seen on TH-cam
This is amazing content. I am glad I have stumbled upon your channel!
It’s a great series of videos that are rarely seen on TH-cam. I subscribed, bro.
A metalurgist would have a heart attack seeing you cutting and welding forged steel suspension parts.
Threw a red flag for me and my first thought.. "I ain't driving that". I hope he had a good roll bar system.
A MIG welder is wrong for this He risks not getting enough penetration with the thickness of metal involved here.Unless he has a 400 amp welder which I doubt.Stick welding would have been much better.
Yes, some of the angles are a little suss too. In realty fabricating an complete upright would be better. Or simply find a stub axle that is suitable. Toe out on turns makes a car turn better. Steering arm length usually governs that.
Yep, thought the same... Clearly not a mechanical engineer and no automotive engineer either. I wouldn't drive that car with the shown suspension design.
I know right! that weld boundary is going to be so brittle. he did even try to address the issue. Can he heat it back up and peen it then let it cool slowly in sand or something? i hope he is driving slow when it fails.
Late to the party, but I wanted to say thanks for sharing this process, and all of the info in the other suspension videos. Awesome stuff, man.
It doesn't seem like there's very much suspension travel mounting the heim joints in that flat direction, if you turn them 90 degrees they won't go into bind if the suspension travels farther than you've designed it to.
I was thinking the same thing.
biryanikebab I’d rather turn them and make it more suspension travel, I can’t see any reason not to
Thought the same thing
Doesn’t seem he’s necessarily looking for 8-12” of travel.
I’d bet he could probably have 3-6” of travel per corner and still end out with a great handling car if paired with a stiffer suspension setup. Essentially end up being a big aerodynamic go cart.
Alex Vine ya, I get that, but in the start of the video it looks like it only travels 3-4 inches, and if you’ve ever seen the curbing in the corners of most tracks that will bottom out the Heim joints when you hit that curbing when used at the plane they are installed im
I feel honored to have watched your channel when it first started, what you doing now is what I i'm be doing.
Absolutely sensational videos! Wow! I love the way that you used the two photographs to determine steering requirements! I hope you make another car after this one! Maybe you and the Warranty (Tavarish) can do a collaboration or something! Thank you!
haven't heard so nice detailed info about geometry - plus that idea to demo it on the real half done axle, where ou can move it frealy, is really great. Thanks !
I strongly recommend using the spacers for the rose joints you are using. I am not much of a racecar builder but i've seen my share of snapping the stems off of those when people hit curbs too hard.
22:14 ''if the car turns out to be front heavy''
Bold of you to assume that Ahaha XDD
My favourite build on TH-cam! 👏🏼💥Your knowledge is just ridiculous. Thanks for the videos and keep them coming man👌🏻
In Russia, all build on the UZ (toyota), but you realize my childhood dream! Way to go, man.
Should've put threaded joints on the outboard control arm mounts so you don't have to unbolt the inner joint when you want to adjust
that would also allow adjustment without requiring the arm to deflect. the way he has the arms welded any length change requires the arm to deflect to create a new triangle
At first i thought strange that you mounted the lower ball joint upside down but now i understand :) the lower arm will be the mount point for the damper/spring unlike most road cars were the shock and spring mount on top were your upper ball joint is. that way it will prevent the ball joint from separating itself because the weight of the car will push it downward (hope i made sense)... making the wishbones with thin tube was very smart because they will only take pushing and pulling forces, no twisting forces will be there so they only need to resist compression and pulling...very nice engineering there. but if you were to fit an ARB attached to middle of each wishbone like on most road cars the tubes would bend..that is how you optimize for weight saving and efficiency, very nice
A thing I've been thinking about recently is why not put the transmission on the rear axle?
Maybe the easiest way to do it is to reuse fwd audi transmission with its integrated differential and then mod the cv joints to fit the suspension you need.
morbid curiosity keeps me here.
cant wait to see you design on the cantilever suspension. This is amazing! You are living my dream!
Guess what? You helped my fix my '98 E55 Estate (or wagon) I had coolant mixing with my oil and was think I needed head gaskets or something, but it was the coolant passage o-rings in the timing cover! Engine saved and not too much work really. Thanks man! Love the vids. I watch every single one
Awesome...watching this projects...makes me wanna ditch my mirage cyborg rally car and move into space frame track car project!
Can't wait to see it running !!!!!!!
Absolutely amazing series. I'm really blown away by all of your work.
You mentioned releasing a Part 3 of the suspension series, talking about trailing link setup and other styles, is that video still in the works? I'd love to see that too
Something I would have recommended is welding threaded rod to the ball joint and putting threaded inserts in both ends of the control arm tubes with opposite thread directions. That way you wouldn't have to unbolt the heim joints to adjust caster and camber. Just crack the jam nuts loose and spin the tube to make adjustments.
Also you're going to need some sort of pivot at the ball joint end for the tubes because shortening or lengthening the tubes for adjustment will also change the angle where the control arm tube meets the mtg point on the frame.
Project is looking Good, You take it to another level.Kudos.
Amazing! Keep going! Like we saying in my country - you have golden hands!
Great job designing the suspension. Came across this cause I'm interested in makeing A-Arm suspension for a VW Thing. Welding on cast iron that is as structurally critical as this isn't a good idea. Making steel spindles from scratch would be much more accurate and more importantly much much much safer.
This suspension setup looks great, but if any of the arms need to be adjusted the rose joint will not correspond with the bolt hole, so to get the bolt through the mounting point and the joint arms will need to be forced which is introducing a stress point, believe me I've been there.....
Amazing what you say what you explain its all amazing , never taught such things anywhere
Impressive work on the spindles. Having done this, would it have been easier to fabricate spindles from scratch? Just wondering what your thoughts were. Thx
awesome work man! I have nothing else but praise to you my man! keep it up!
I wouldn't use regular screws for the wishbone mounting but proper bolts. Also your balljoints seem to have a tad too much play. They're perfect when you can barely move them by hand. Also expect them to wear out fast.
I have a few questions that I hope you would reply:
1) How did you measure the angles while you assembled them?
2) How was the angle virtually determined with your track width?
3) How did you design the chassis based on weight distribution?
4) Is the M14 screw enough to hold the arms to the chassis and your front to middle portion chassis fixture?
I'm probably going to go through all these process in making a Formula student car with a 390 cc engine probably and i'm pretty much new..
Simply incredible, what program have you used to simulate lenghts angles and all of it. Or which would you suggest. Second thing, the lenght of whisbones is based of what factor?
I think your suspension is too weak! I built a race car my self and a 20 mm unibal is a minumim size for this kind of power weight and tyre size. For example picture the tyre blocking when you go 200 km/h a 20 kg mass of the wheel and tyre is stoping instantly those small joint won't be holding it. Same thing with the tube suspension and the bolt connections of your chassis. Use TIG welder instead of MIG, the weld hardens because its cools so rapidly and its brutal with TIG this isn't a problem.
My calculation was based on forces on the contact patch. This setup should be strong enough to take this car up to 4G's in the corners at 75% weight transfer. That results in a 22kN force on the lower control arm ball joint. I don't think the car will reach that.
Agree with you on the TIG welding though. That's definitively the better way
SK8215
But what about bumps? Wouldn’t they cause much higher forces? Imagine you going of the track at high speed. I’ve no knowledge nor experience, just my imagination ;)
@@xfmotorsports Calculation is a starting point but I tell you something from my experience. I built an e36 v8 drift car with extended lower arms what is a laser cutted s355 steel whit 65x50 steel section at it weakest pont and has 50 mm clearance from the wheel well and its stil touches it over time and bend the arm slightly so I have to adjust the aligment. Your choise I wish you the best.
hey, I was lucky enough to stumble upon this magnificent video serie, and would just like to say that this looks like a hell of an awesome build!
Also, I reckon you could easily make oval tubes if you made yourself some dies and just rolled standard tubes between two dies of a greater diameter, until you reached the desired oval shape:P
You are realy cool! I like your ideas to solve some tasks.
sub'd.
Planning on making my own car as well in 3yrs time after I come back from Japan, thinking of using either s54, s65 or s85 motor (yeah.. BMW guy here). and it'll be mid engine is what I plan. was thinking of the same suspension set-up for the fronts as well as you. nice to see similar thing to what I am thinking about. probably will go to school w/ in this 3 yrs or so engineering to understand how things are designed even further.
i am not a hater, but have knowledge of building suspension components. first of all dont weld bits onto stub axles ( might suit what you want to achieve but suitable for road use) so you have 600hp engine,, brakes that can develop twice that in negative g's (braking effort) tires that have grip from hell!! then wish bones that will only support 150hp . have thought about cornering loads? or hitting a bump while fully loaded in a corner? perhaps now would be a good time to purchase some excellent books on suspension geomatry or racecar construction. it will save you time, money, and possibly your life or some one elses.
My choice of material was based of the stresses I calculated those components would be under assuming the worst case scenario. Thats how all other race cars are built.
There is no relation between power and the strength of a non driven front suspension, so maybe this would be a good time to read through your book collection again
purcahse some books? is that a joke or what? have you seen the content of this channel, this individual clearly knows what he is doing, not just a ricer kid slappin shit together and trying if it works...welding steel bar to cast is not a problem if you preheat or peen the weld as you go along to avoid cracks...fusion of the 2 materials is achieved... i would not use mig but it WILL hold, stop trying to slow the progress on this fkn haters. like he said power has nothing to do with stress on the front suspension because its a rwd car...the important thing here that needs to be taken into account when calculating for strenght of the suspension linkages and arms is the mass of the car...not the power.... you take power into account when choosing a gearbox and differential....this car will be much more lighter than the original so lighter duty components can be used, also the original car is a mercedes so its always very very overengineered, with that taken into account there wouldn't even be any need for math, you could just eyeball it and it would not break
I 100% agree with you, this guys suspension is for a go-kart
@@orestwolfgang556 and what is your background on mechanics ?
Something burning? :)
With the engine bolted to the frame, what are the engineered sacrifical weak points in the chassis? The reason im asking is that in the event of a crash, or even light hit/rub, how do you ensure you dont completly destroy your car and engine and transmission, rather than simply a control arm?
The tubes are actually different wall thicknesses and there will be an aluminum crumple zone in the radiator area. In a crash the front part will crumple before anything else.
f1 and certain prototype classes use composite crash boxes. Making them yourself doesn't seem impossible, they are just layer cakes of carbon fiber and honeycomb. The deformation of the honeycomb and delamination of the carbon fiber dissipate kinetic energy and dramatically reduce the deceleration peak forces.
Holy smokes. These videos are incredible.
Ah well I wouldnt put my life into that casting welded with MIG. Hope it wont betray you in the worst possible moment.
Most underrated TH-cam channel
The motor is highly displaced to the base, there will not be enough adhesion on the front axle. If you build the suspension on the wishbone, then the shock absorbers are better to adapt the pushroad system
What software are you using for the suspension design?
Fusion 360 is pretty popular and it can also simulate stresses. Pen, paper, and a calculator can do just as well though and in my opinion is itself much easier. Though if you are already proficient with any given cad software it can improve your efficiency.
Adams and lotus software is what he is using
This video makes me think about what I can do to improve suspension geometry for my 350z. Then I realize that you can't change much unless than ride hight, camber and toe...
Nice job for the suspension design. But welding cast parts is tricky. I hope you let the part cool down pretty slow (under a blanket or so)
The chassis gets narrower towards the front so the suspension pick up points are not parallel to the front-rear line. I see this type of setup in many offroad cars. What does it do and how do you figure out the suspension geometry in 2D front plane please?
You are like the Colin Chapman of TH-cam. I don't think there is a higher compliment than that.
Fantastic stuff too watch.
I've seen Caterhams with more robust looking suspension.... And that big lump of an engine too. Good luck!
Shouldn't those heim joints be vertical so the control arms can reciprocate up and down (more) and give the suspension/spindle more travel? I'm sure there's a reason for them being mounted horizontally, just curious.
It's stronger using them this way. No bending forces on the threads, just tension or compression. For low travel applications this is the preferred way
SK8215 good to know for future reference thanks! Will you be reenforcing the mounting points for the a arms with something similar to a strut bar? Now that I’m typing this I suppose the shocks will help absorb some of the load the A arm mounts experience at full travel? (also what type of load would that be considered on those mounts at full travel, just rotational force? sorry I’m a noob lol). Subbed for all of the good info here as I may be doing some fabrication similar to this in the future, thanks for the reply!
I was about to say about the valve cover solid engine mount idea...saw that myself on some old F3 cars i believe. Be careful however as these engines were not designed to be stressed members...especially if the block is aluminum. I have seen old F1 v10 cylinder heads that basically are cast in the shape of an i-beam to aid in torsional rigidity... Here in the states the drag racers and NASCAR boys like to use engine plates... I saw a cadillac cts-v road racer back in the day use a motor plate designed from a billet of aluminum...weight relieved and everything... Look into that...this might work better for you... Otherwise I just saw this... Good luck...these type of projects can make you wanna tear your head out...! BTW...are you using ANSYS...?
great by dear. Best regards from Florence, Italy
You obviously seem quite smart although the loads those ball joints will go under will be far more than 4G
You have not factored shock loads which may exceed 20G
Totally agree. Those components look abut half as strong as they probably should be. PLEASE consider reinforcing them a lot.
That's not how it works. I'll explain the calculations more in the next video, 20G is something you only see in a big impact. Even the wheels and tires don't survive forces like that
@@xfmotorsports your car will be a nice casket
@@jamess3417 yes, the professional doesn't know what he's doing
@@cumbob he is an electrical engineer, not mechanical or automotive - never participated in FSAE or comparable
Get a steering rack from a left hand drive car and flip it around. It will spin the right direction for a rear mounted rack on a right hand drive car..
Why didn't you use rod ends on both sides of the control arms? These are the most damaged part on the car, as you will find out. They should be easier to swap out when you bend them. Just saying. Also, without rod ends on both sides, you will not be able to adjust them quickly, while attached to the car. But, you are knocking it out of the park!!! Cheers!
You need to come look at one of cars I work on and how they mount on my channel. I believe you need a couple ways to adjust roll centers for track tuning. We use all adjustable mounting points, control arm lengths and ball joint heights.
Wow love the way you explain and the depth you went into designing this, Might use some of your ideas in my project. ;)
rod ends mounted radially as in you wishbones are only 1 10th there original rated loading, something to bear in mind.
Thats not true. Axial loads or forces at improper angles is what bends them. This is the way they are meant to be used. Have a look at any f1, lmp or indy car suspension
@@REL602 www.mulsannescorner.com/peugeot908-1.html
@@xfmotorsports or even an off road truggy suspension. the force you are resisting is not gravity on the side of the joint it is the braking loads etc. I agree the joints are oriented correctly
When it comes to the direction of the steering wrack you could flip left too right.😘🤓
There’s a tool called a ball joint reamer. It’s a tapered reamer that perfectly match the male taper on the ball joint. Too late to help you. But maybe someone will read this and save a little time and effort.
wouldn't putting the balljoint attachement points in water during welding change the regitity of these ?
So to adjust the length of the control arms, you have to remove the bolts through the Heim joint, then rotate the whole joint in 180 degree increments. Is that correct?
Damn you have everything figured out!
Is welding cast suspension parts reliable? Very interesting project!
done right they are gonna be strong and the quality of the casting I guess. some cast parts sucks since they aren't as good quality and they got air pockets but I imagine mercedes cast parts will have minimal air pockets on their parts.
That suspension part that you think is cast is actually forged.. a no no to weld on. It's forged for a reason.
True , true...theyre actually forged. And since they are hard and robust they probably must resist some bending forces also which property after welding will be probably diminished right?
I don’t think I would get in it personally, but I will watch with great interest! He seems to work by Destructive iteration on his last car... hopefully he has plenty of run off at the tracks he is going to drive at....
Those spindels are cast or forged, are you sure that its weldable? for cast there are some sticks for stickwelders who does the job i dont know about mig tho.
That's why he preheats them I presume. Cast welds fairly easily, but may crack because of the temperature coefficient. You may also use silicon bronze, its way softer and can take the stress when the part cools down but is a bit weaker, so just use a thick weld.
@@brynyard Såklart man ska förvärma, men blir det verkligen bra med MIG?
The weld filler should be as strong (if not stronger) and more maluable than the cast iron, the fusion shouldn't be a problem, so as long as you avoid stress cracks from the temperature expansion you'll have a strong enough part.
@@brynyard Allright, jag ger mig. är bara skolad i att det bara blir skit när man försöker svetsa i gjutet/smitt.
At school they say this basically because they don't want to explain all the intricacies with welding cast, just like your parents say "that's just the way it is" (or the priest says "God works in mysterious ways").
How do you adjust the camber? without bending the wishbone out of shape? I must be missing something, cheers
4 gees? 5 GEEEES!!!
Great video and inspirational as always.
The correct term for a conical joint is a taper, and you can buy taper reamers to machine them properly.
Thanks for pointing that out. Didn't know there was a tool for that. Would make life a lot easier for next time!
Dude you deserve more followers than this. You are right up there with Project Binky imo. Keep it going!!!
Are mercedes spindles/knuckles made of steel and not iron? I've always been under the understanding (mind you American trucks) that spindle/knuckles are cast or nodular iron and can't be welded in a way that would make them reliable.
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Hi. Can you explain something to me? Why is the heim joint end rod bearing to body horizontal but not vertical?
Thank you very much!
If you want to mount steering rack behing the hub and IT was in front of, easiest way is to buy RHD steering rack and rotate it. I made it like that.
Adams and lotus software is I guess you are using for suspension design. Please tell me if I'm right
If you need to tig anything you are welcome to borrow my tig if you promise to bring it back :) I'm in Scarborough. I have a mini lathe Id let you borrow but the motor controller has burnt up. I though for sure you would use some aluminum audi knuckles maybe...see those all over the junkyards :)
Thanks for the offer! Didn't know you were in Scarborough, that's only 40min away form me. Will keep that in mind if I require tig. I was thinking billet knuckles before but would have taken way too long doing that. It's a bit of a rushed project for now because I really want to get the car driving before September lol. After that I'll keep improving along
@Random Restoration Canada
Do you think the chassis twisting forces will have a detrimental effect on the engine?
Leverage from the chassis end to the block can be quite high and the tolerances in the engine are quite low.
Maybe extra bracing will be needed.
Will have to see if it works..
Do you use blender to do your animations?
Your videos are amazing man. I'm a huge car guy and diy guy myself, seriously impressive work! You should have a million subscribers!! Just wondering Which cad software are you using to model the car?
Good luck with your "T/A" car lmao
How you plan to change alligment (for example camber) in that setup? I don't think that I see points for that. Wfrom what I see there's only removal of balljoints > turning joint by 180 degrees > putting back again.
Yeh that's right. They have to be removed for making adjustments.
@@xfmotorsports If that's enough for you for adjustments I accept that. For me it's just not really handy. It will be much harder to setup geometry correctly. I think you can still now make it more adjustable with threaded pipe (will be heavier). It's called "Roman Screw" or something similar.
yup...saw that two...normally is used a threaded rod with reversed thread on each end and a hex in the middle (dont know how its called) then some counter-nuts...it allows on the fly adjustment with only one wrench no need to even jack the car up.
The thin sheets connecting the wishbones to the rod ends on tire side look a bit flimsy to me. The lateral loads going through that thin part could cause it to buckle. The weld seams also look way too short/narrow. Maybe he will add more bracing when he adds the spring mechanism?
Yeh, its a little incomplete right now. Have to attach a few bits and pushrod mounting point. You'll see it in the next video
Hey buddy what software did you use the build this car and do all the calculations and values
You're talented AF dude .I just subscribed.
I have many questions that how to measure and adjust the caster correctly
Absolutely amazing