Ditching Tesla Batteries In Our RV… Why We Upgraded To Battle Born Batteries
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- After spending a year and a half with one of the early Tesla battery banks in an RV we decided to make the switch to Battle Born Batteries and here's why! Follow us for great upcoming content on RV solar power projects!
Thank you, for the video! I really like how you got to the point and stayed on point from start to finish without a lot of yammering about all sorts of unrelated topics. And, I liked your fair treatment of both the Tesla modules and the Battle Born batteries. Subscribed!
Richard Owens thank you very much! I’ll be releasing an update here in the coming weeks, hopefully you’ll enjoy it!
My thoughts exactly! Great video and great comment:))
Sleeping without worrying is a sweet thing.
really glad i stumbled across this video! i've been intrigued with a van build using tesla modules. and battleborn as a second consideration. here's the thing: the tesla module is ~$1200. the BMS would be ~$100. (~$1300 together) and it packs *roughly* the same energy density as 5 battleborn batteries. (@ ~$1000/ea would be ~$5000) you say your consideration is safety, and i can understand that. but 2 teslas would be ~$2600 (you said yours was ~$3000) and the equivalent battleborn solution would be ~$10000. that's a $7k difference!!! that's a lot. yes battleborn would be a SUPER simple, warrantied solution, but for 200% more cost. and with costs in the thousands of dollars, that adds up quick! the other consideration for a van, is the battery footprint. 2 teslas vs. 10 battleborn. i dunno! but i'm still glad to have come across this video!! thanks. :)
dobrzpe glad I could help! You’re not far off, but the math is a bit different. A Tesla module has a theoretical 5.2kWh storage, when used in an RV application you’ll see about 4.5kWh max. This is due to the fact that they aren’t a true 24v battery and the inverter will hit its low voltage cutoff before the module is fully drained. Also, if you’re looking to be safe you won’t fully charge them (help eliminate the fire hazard) so you could be closer to 4kWh. But, let’s go with 4.5.
Now the Battle Born Batteries are $950 when not on sale, so you’re already saving 5% of your estimate there. Additionally they have 1.2kWh of usable power, thus 4 of them is actually more power than a single Tesla pack. During Black Friday they were $850, further evening the playing field.
Now I don’t want to sound like the only option here is the Battle Born Batteries. We used the Tesla’s and had great luck, I can’t complain at all. Extremely energy dense and we were quite happy with them. All in all the warranty and safety won us over. I can buy new batteries anyway, but, I can’t buy a new life/family member etc. The risk just didn’t feel like it was worth the reward so I decided to make the change.
I will say that as a generalization ~10kWh in a van seems like overkill only in that you simply won’t have enough roof space for the amount of solar I’d expect to see with a bank of that size. IE if you’ve got 1,000w of solar on the roof and 10kWh it’s going to take days to charge your batteries. What that means is you really can’t take full advantage of a battery bank you can’t keep charged etc.
There’s no “rule” for this, it’s just that if you had the above setup and somehow used half your battery bank one day, you couldn’t recharge it the next, which over the course of time becomes a real problem.
@@muirindustries wow, thanks for the xmas response!! :) or, heck, a response at all! i *totally* understand the safety consideration and also understand that you can't put a price on that. i also understand the lack of roof space for panels is another hurdle. however it's more of the capacity i'd be looking at for those days-on-end of dreary whether, not being able to charge. i don't foresee power requirements in a van needing 10kWh, BUT it'd be nice to have.
that's a good point about the 'weird' voltage from the tesla packs. i remember 'DIY Solar Power with Will Prouse' talking about that in a video a while ago. (great channel for info) and that's the exact reason i believe he took out his tesla battery.
it's all a lot to consider. and everyone has their own sliding scale of what their willing to pay/research/risk etc. and there is no correct answer for everyone. only a correct answer for you.
thanks again for the response and i REALLY appreciate the info!
dobrzpe you’re more than welcome! I’ll be doing a follow up video soon covering our changeover and getting a bit more into detail. Traveling right now for some fun during the holidays, as soon as we’re back home I’ll film it!
@@muirindustries Thanks for the info.
With that kind of price difference you could build a Novec equipped firebox to put them in and still save HALF $$$
Good explanation on why you switched. I did the same thing. I got the Tesla battery from a wrecked Model S for cheap and was bragging about my $/KWh but after the dozens and dozens of hours of researching and hacking my own BMS (and thinking about what I earn per hour) it didn't save me anything. On top of that I have a 1 yr old daughter and dog and constantly worried that if I messed something up I'd put those I love most in danger and decided despite loving to save money, that just wasn't an area I was willing to do it in. I think you made a wise choice. Hopefully, Tesla will come out with an option for RV'ers in the future where you can buy a battery with a built-in BMS like Battle Born.
Ahhh another person who gets it! Time is money, and safety cant buy your daughters life back. I went down the same path, of course thinking I was saving a bunch, turns out I was wasting my time on a science project. We all make mistakes, fortunately yours and mine didn't cost us anything precious!
I have used Battle Born batteries in my off-grid home for over 5 years and have never had a problem with them. They charge fast and are easy to install. There is no maintenance involved and they can be mounted at any angle in your application. Their support ( had a few tech questions) is outstanding and prompt. I have 14 24 volt batteries in my application and they run my house for several days with no sun. They also are fully charged on cloudy days with little sun. I have four inverters connected in split phase configuration providing my house with normal 240 volt service just like the power co. Thanks for your video, I wondered about Telsa batteries but had the same concerns as you about their safety and the lack of support. You validated my decision to use the Battle Born batteries. Best of luck in the furture !!
I’m in Reno as well... BattleBorn is a pretty good company, responsive and taking care of their clients. It’s nice to see someone that grows that much thank to a good product and a great service.
Thank you for taking the time to make an excellent video. Intelligent and advanced...and to the point. You did a great job of explaining safety and quality. And the concept of using purpose built products for their intended use.
Zach Hutchinson thanks so much!! Updates coming soon to the completed setup!
Thanks for this vid! I'm very much a new when it comes to this stuff but I plan to convert a box trailer into a off grid self sufficient home. So solar is a big play in that! I was thinking about he Tesla wall because of how simple it looks and the space it doest take up, but after watching this and having to worry about the risk of it all burning down! Yeah, no! Imma go with battle born for when I build it, it might not less sleek but its so much more robust, thanks again for this!!!
Good info and on point.
Thanks for the effort, will keep an eye out for your upcoming posts.
You should consider a little more colorful backdrop for your shoot to lighten things up just a bit.
We run on 16 battleborns to power our fully off grid three unit rental villa on St. John, U.S.V.I. and we couldn't be happier with our purchase also. After extensive research we paired the battleborns with an 8000 watt outback gs8048a inverter and they have worked together flawlessly for over a year now. We run three minisplit AC units, three refrigerators, well pump, three microwaves etc. etc.
We have an 8800 watt panels array and never want for power, never suffer a blackout. It's been a huge relief to have our own independent power supply , after 4-1/2 months of zero grid power following hurricane Irma and hurricane Maria.
Thanks to battleborn batteries and welcome to the Battleborn brotherhood !
That's some serious power reserve for an RV. Enjoy...
Thanks so much for all the info! I’ll certainly work on being more lively, making TH-cam videos isn’t my finely tuned skill unfortunately. I’ll get there! Your setup sounds great! That’s a lot of solar and I can only imagine excellent sun exposure. I’ve always heard that’s an absolutely stunning area, hopefully I’ll get down there in the coming year.
Are larger solar installations with lithium common near you or is it more common to be grid connected? I can imagine it going both ways. Regardless I bet you enjoy the freedom!
thanks for the insight! we're building out a 360 VR mobile editing RV and needed to understand power options. you helped to guide us...thanks for taking time, money and experience to share. this prevented us from making mistakes. thank you!
Glad I could help, thanks for the response!
I also use battle born battries. Actually only one but I have a small travel trailer and it is amazing. The lithium batteries have changed the game, I am completely sold on them.
Tripping Tommy awesome! I couldn’t agree more, game changer for sure!!
Great video. I was leaning towards Tesla form factor etc. And also I have an electronics background. But the warranty and safety are huge factors.
I have gone with a 48 V Rhino battery from Big Battery reported to be fireproof even if punctured. It also can be charged all the way down to -4° without using any kind of heater built-in to the battery this battery carries a full 10 year guarantee with the only exception that it cannot go longer than six months without being charged. Has no limitations on running the battery down below the 20% level and if you look into Big Battery they’ve been around a long time stumbled on to big battery from a friend that uses them in household systems. I paid just under $7000 for the 14 KW battery ship to Utah if you look up the spec it’s also very easy to use in the RV to that’s only 4 inches thick about 27” x 42inches look it up it a neat battery
I bought 12 Battleborn Batteries also, in the middle of the big install now :) I went through a lot of the same research trials as you did, looking at Tesla and other options but after a lot of research ended up back with Battleborns.
I bet you'll love them. We certainly do! I should have an update here soon, everything should be completed in the next few weeks.
So you spent almost 12k on batteries?
@@HotGritz910 lithium batteries aren't cheap.
@@HotGritz910 If you get them on sale or maybe a group discount at $850, it would come to $10,500 It's not cheap to take care of all power needs and run an a/c, off-grid but think of the savings if you had to plug into an rv park. An average rv park might cost you $45 a night which would give you 233 days of rv service before you spent $10.5k
I think the takeaway here is the Tesla battery may not be as suitable for rv applications due to less ease of installing and the risk of fire from previous undiscovered internal cell damage. In the event the used battery was damaged in some way that could not be easily detected or mitigated by the bms, I’d say that is a fair conclusion. I think in most cases with 6 cells reporting data you should be able to see an anomaly in a single cell group and address it. Physical internal damage could be harder to detect. I could conclude a new factory battery could provide an element of safety not necessarily present in the aforementioned used battery. The Tesla battery solution is further complicated by the design voltage not being ideal if not corrected. Beyond that I’d say the complaints are limitations of knowledge and experience of the tech performing the install and not the Tesla battery. I’d disagree that an internal bms is superior to an external one except in complexity of installation; not safety. I’d further suggest that bms systems that are currently available highly exceed the performance and safety of the Battle Born battery internal bms. I think sighting rv fires where Tesla batteries are involved is like talking about house fires where fireplaces were present. You don’t have enough information to draw a proper conclusion. All lithium batteries have a risk over over charge/fire. In my case I’d be inclined to purchase a new battery vs a used more difficult to install one. However, that being said I think the bigger concern is not the battery but the bms, ancillary safety components, the skill set of the installer, the enclosure the battery is in, the fire detection /suppression equipment, etc. In conclusion, I wouldn’t rule out or be any more wary of the Tesla battery if the fore mentioned items were properly addressed. I think both solutions have merit over the other. I think the “new vs used” as well as the architecture of the battery is only one in a series of safety concerns and not necessarily the determining factor or the most important one.
Great honest review...I see this was almost a year ago. How do you feel now?
Sorry for the delay in reply, I couldn't be happier, they've been flawless and served us VERY well. The freedom has been incredible!
Great decision. Cheap price for peace of mind. Definitely interested in future videos on this. We are in the planning stage of going full-time in an RV for a couple years and for us a safe solar system will be all but a necessity.
Where the Jones thanks! I’ll be interested in what you end up with, keep in touch!
Perhaps, one of the biggest drawbacks to lead-acid batteries, apart from their relatively short life compared with LiFePO4 batteries, is a little understood factor, called the "Peukert effect." Basically, the Peukert law states that the greater the current draw from a lead acid battery, the less overall capacity it has. The rating for a lead acid battery is based on discharging it at a "20 hour rate." So, a 100 amp hour lead acid battery is rated at 100 amp hours only when it is discharged at a 5 amp rate. If you discharged it at 20 amps, you would not get five hours of use out of it. You would get more like two hours, or less, out of it. Why? First, because you can only discharge it by 50% before doing damage to it, and second, because of the Peukert effect that would diminish the overall capacity of the battery.
Another factor involved with lead acid batteries is the internal resistance and charging profile. You can charge lead acid batteries to about 80% of total capacity fairly quickly. They can take a lot of current to get them up to 80%. But, to get all the way up to 100% capacity takes a lot longer - longer even than getting them up to 80%. That's because the closer they get to being full, the less current they will accept. What that means in real terms is, if you are using a generator to recharge lead acid batteries, you will have to run it for several hours even after they're at 80% to get them totally topped off. In contrast, LiFePO4 batteries can take huge amounts of current almost all the way up to 100%. They taper off in how much current they can accept once they're at about 98% of full capacity.
Another factor to consider is that lead acid batteries HATE being left in a partial state of charge. Keeping a lead acid battery at 65%-70% will significantly shorten their life. On the other hand, LiFePO4 batteries LOVE to be kept at a partial state of charge. Indeed, for long term storage, keeping them at 35%-50% is preferred for longer life. And, keeping them at 65%-70% is perfectly acceptable for your normal use.
Finally, of course, the number of available charge cycles is MUCH higher with LiFePO4 batteries. Within LiFePO4 batteries, there can be differences in the chemistry, though. Depending on your application, you may wish to choose either a LiFePO4 battery that has about 3000 cycles life expectancy, but can provide up to three times its capacity (3C) on demand (300 amps draw from a 100 amp hour battery, for example), or a LiFePO4 battery that can provide about 4000 cycles life expectancy, but can only provide a constant 1C (100 amp draw for a 100 amp hour battery). The higher draw 3C batteries cost more and are better suited for electric car applications, or other high current demand applications. And, the lower draw capacity 1C batteries are better suited for lower current demand applications, like running an inverter in an RV. So, choose your type of LiFePO4 battery accordingly.
Hope this helps!
You re-phrased a subject I had explained to me several times with no luck grasping. Got it now! THANKS!
How long would 1 battleborn battery will last in a house that power a TV ,stereo and charging your mobile phones tablets etc
Richard Owens "
Amazing video! Really made me re-consider the safety side of things. No point in trading a few hundred bucks in savings for constant anxiety. Thanks for sharing.
Glad I could help! Enjoy it out there!
Thank you sir. Been deeply thinking on this exact topic for awhile now. Pendulum has swung 👍
The other aspect in switching to Battle Born if there was fire and it burned down the camper then a National Forest far less chance of liability coming back to you. If your homemade Tesla battery system started a fire in the RV would your insurance company pay???
I have seen many a loop hole designed into these policies. Example; If you take 3/4 ton commercial van and convert it into a living quarters you better check with your insurance company before you assume you are covered by your normal insurance policy, most are not.
I agree completely, no insurance agent is going to be OK with your homemade fire starting solution haha!
good points. I like BB and Tesla batteries. I was thinking Tesla was the way to go. You made me think a little deeper. Cost is king. Considering a 48VDC bank to run my house @ 60 KW. South Florida. Air Conditioning is a must.
That would be awesome! I'm sure the guys down at BB would take good care of you on a system like that. MUCH safer, plus a 10 year warranty is certainly something to think about.
Hello again my friend! So nice to put a face to your name finally Emory. Well, you and Rob Kenny both convinced me quite awhile back that going with Battleborn's is just plain smart for all of the reasons that you spoke of in your well though out explanation in this new video you've presented here. The cost alone is gonna be huge for the system that I have designed for my future RV (12 Battleborn's and all Victron components, just like you and Rob) and I already built the cost into the budget. I'm estimating probably around 17-20k $$$ for everything, and god only knows how much more for a professional installation. Bottom line though is safety and having a warranty that I can count on. Jack Rickard of EVTV almost had me convinced to go with his 15KWH Tesla pre-built Powersafe RV which he is selling for around $11.5K, but again the dangerous chemistry of the Tesla batteries and NO WARRANTY shut out that thought in a hurry. There are cheaper Lithium Iron Phosphate drop-in's available at a lower cost, but nowhere near the warranty and when it comes to a reliable BMS, Battleborn has the most robust build out there, and that is where the increased cost lies - in the BMS that they utilize. I will be living full time on the road and I DO NOT want to run a generator if I can avoid it, yet I still want to run my A/C without having to constantly seek higher elevations for a cooler climate during the Summers and also stay warm during the Winter as well - and you appear to have my wants all covered and vetted. Thank you for taking the time to make your video Emory, you did an excellent job!
Howdy sir! Glad I could help!! I think you're right on track, you'll have an amazing system and will absolutely love it. I'm so happy to make the switch, it just "makes sense" if you know what I mean. The Tesla route was fun while it lasted but for now it'll be a thing of the past. It really is an exciting time to be alive, battery technology is progressing at an insane rate comparative to prior generations and we get to enjoy the fruits of their labor! Keep in touch, I'm excited to see yours take shape!
Wow! Great information and delivery was flawless. I haven't upgraded yet but this is the to the point information I've been looking for.
2019 Cargo Express ProRace8
2003 Wildcat
This cleared things up. Definitely not worth taking the risks with Tesla batteries.
We went with 4 Valence XP 135ah for 1/3 of the cost. I like the idea of being able to access the cells via the Valence software.
Cliffmandude how do you like them thus far? Happy all around?
@@muirindustries Haven't put them to the "real world" test yet but I did test them pulling a 62 amp continuous load for 6 hours before my low voltage shut down at 11v. I'm not full time and no solar yet. I'm happy with what I got for the price.
I suspect that the Valence batteries were used so are we really comparing apples to apples here?
good review and I am using .. still building with 2 bb 100 mpers
Thank you! That was a great explanation of *why* you made the switch. I watched a bunch of Tesla-batteries-in-RV videos, and was certainly intrigued, and impressed with some of the systems (including some rather sophisticated diy bms installations). In the end, though, I knew that it was more project than I wanted to take on, so I went with six Battleborn batteries, in parallel, for our 30 amp Class C RV, along with all Victron equipment. I have never regretted my decision and your video reinforces that I made the right decision for us. We have 1600 watts on the roof, and go months without plugging in. We do carry our Honda eu2000i generator, for those rare occasions when we really need it. I am looking forward to the rest of the series. Thank you for putting in the time and energy to share your experiences with us. Safe travels!
Very cool!! Thank you!!
What was the weight difference between the two options? I imagine that 12 of those add up to no small increase.Could you install something like a powerwall unit? Integrated cooling/safer/cheaper etc.
LiFePO4 batteries, like the Battle Born batteries, are lighter weight than lead-acid batteries by about 70%, but they are heavier than Tesla modules. And, the Tesla Powerwall is not warranted, nor designed, for RV use. Tesla intends - and, expects - for Powerwalls to be connected to the grid.
345 lbs total bank weight for me with my 12 Battleborn 24V 50ah, less than half the weight of my 8 bank lead acid
excellent vid. Been pondering different solutions. Subscribed!
Thanks so much!
Battle Born would be wonderful but We chose to go with 7s Tesla batteries. Off Grid with 15 kilowatts. Fire is a concern so we only charge to 4.04 volts per cell. And yes a BMS module on every battery. The solar shed is remote from the house or I would not ever consider NMC chemistry.
Seeing a lot of simping for Battle Born in my short time researching Tesla batteries. I'm not scared of a fire because I'm confident in my electrical skills.
Warranty, customer service and safety are defininte considerations. There's a couple you missed though. Weight and volume. Teslas are significantly smaller and lighter per kwh and that was a big factor in my decision since I had been flirting with my weight limits and had little room to work with.
Buying through 057 Tech greatly alleviated my other concerns. Although there is no long term warranty, they're advice and support to keep things working and safe was invaluable for my project. I'm about to build my second system and I'm probably going with Teslas again.
Good to know great information thanks
You stated that you are seeing 75% more capacity, is that due to the voltage profile of the BB Batteries looking much more like traditional Lead Acid batteries ? What would you say is a reasonable comparison 1 Tesla Module to 2 BB 100Ah Batteries ? I am at the point of adding more Tesla Modules or making a change. I look forward to your input.
As for air on solar in the RV, we spend lots of time much further south than you, often 115 and still over 100 at night, we have accomplished AC on solar on the house, but with roof space limiting us to 1900w of PV on the RV, Shore power and generator seems to be the only real option .
Let me clarify, the major increase in our capacity was simply the addition of batteries. Let's talk in raw capacity, the two Tesla modules was ~10.5kWh. Now (12) of the Battle Born batteries at 100Ah each is 1.2kWh so that becomes 14.4kWh. With the Tesla setup we were actually able to use roughly 80% of the capacity (we charged them to 24.5v to be safe and discharged down to 19v). This gave us a theoretical 8.4kWh of usable battery bank, we now have 14.4kWh so it's a significant change. That said, we very rarely USE that much battery but we've also been limited to a single air conditioner prior to this upgrade, we added a second Multiplus inverter at the same time so we could run both AC units during the hottest part of the days. In the winter we can even supplement heat with our electric fireplace depending on how much sun is out.
Another reason we wanted the larger bank was, like you said, realizing we won't always be in the high desert climate that cools down from 100 degree days to 65 degree nights, all of which has no humidity. So this major addition of battery capacity AND inverter capacity is geared at the ability to live comfortably more places on the road.
I would say it's roughly 3.5 Battle Born batteries to a single Tesla Module. So you're looking at say ~$2,850 vs $1,250 in battery costs, but that doesn't factor in any BMS for the Tesla, nor a realistic box to keep the module in, nor any safety concerns and has zero warranty/support so as you add all of those components and considerations into the equation you get MUCH closer in price and the safety/warranty/support isn't even SLIGHTLY comparable.
If I woke up tomorrow and somebody had swapped my Tesla batteries for any other commercially available option right now, I'd be throwing myself off of the bay bridge. The energy density just destroys everything else available. Not to mention the 300 amps Bluetooth BMS systems that have come online in the last 1.5 years are amazing when paired with these modules.
I hope that works out for you long term. It very well may, but for us the risk just isn't worth the reward, we absolutely love the system we have and it's been flawless. Best of luck out there!
Thanks! Nicely done.
What solar panels do you have?
Can you give us a list of your current set up?
Just bought a Tesla Model 3 module. It is 20KWH at 95 VDC, the equivalent of eight Battle Borns, for $2,500. This 250LB six foot monster will run 6KW of power in my all-electric Sprinter Van RV systems, including:
- 240VAC 3KW instant water heater
- 120 VAC 3KW of kitchen appliances (induction cooktop and convection oven) SIMULTANEOUSLY.
As Tim Taylor says: "MORE POWER!" YOLO
This van build will have NO PROPAIN (pun intended), so it needs a massive, industrial-strength battery.
What's your inverter look like?
I Do Projects It’s a 32LB Chinese model from Aliexpress. I know it is a risk, but I will do extensive testing on my workbench prior to installing in the van.
@@tdrager interesting, I'll have a look. At the end of the day most stuff is made in China, they have a vast range of quality coming out of there, everything from the cheapest tools at Harbor Freight to a MacBook Pro etc. Saying it's "made in China" seems to have such a negative connotation, but it can certainly be high quality. I'd be REALLY careful with all that in a van, while mine did work out quite well, I can't stress enough how you're "playing with fire". You'll likely be fine with proper planning but never forget it. What's your charge plan, something specific as well to charge the ~100VDC right?
So you had all your electrical wiring sized for a 24V system but used 12v battleborn batteries? I am curious if you switch from a 24v system to a 12 v system if you would have to tear down the walls and rewire all the wiring to be sized for 12v???
I have a campervan so the current isnt traveling over a far distance. I'm trying to see if I go to 12v if I can get away with using the same wire I have in the walls currently with my 24v system??
Great video. What are panels / setup are you using for your extra 1000w "Ground deploy" system. Very interesting!
Just using more 210w Sunpower panels with Victron charge controller, thanks!
this is a fair comparison.
Awesome insight and I totally see where you're coming from on a safety point of view. I still want your tesla batteries though :D I'm one of those cheapo guys that buys his cell phone second hand lol
I hear you! I'm the same kind of person and I did love using the Tesla batteries for a while, they served their purpose quite well. They did however worry me and my family is just too valuable to me to take the risk.
LOVE THIS DUDE! GREAT STUFF!
Thanks so much!
If you could not afford battleborn, how much could I save getting 12 cheap lithium batteries?
Awesome video! I wish battleborn batteries were available in the UK, we can get batteries from Relion however which I would imagine to be just as good even similar warranty. What do you think? Anyone agree?
I really can’t comment on the quality of them as I don’t have any experience with them. That said, a warranty means a lot to me so if that is what’s available where you are, and they stand behind it. I’d say go for it!
Nice review of issues. I'm building a solar/wind energy trailer to power large battery bank (100kwh; ie. same size unit as a model y); so that I can park trailer and let it charge; then bring ev off roader back to base and charge off grid. Love to get your thoughts on this. tia.
Thanks for the video, I'm thinking about using a powerwall 2 or battle born.
Excellent and very informative video! Keep it up!
Great video! Do you feel any differently about the Tesla PowerWall? These are NOT second hand batteries. But they are also not designed for RV's. I don't know anything more about it than that. I'd be interested in your take on it if you are familiar with them.
I hope that I can be truly candid here. I don't think that you really justified switching to the Battle Born batteries. The Tesla powerwalls are excellent lithium battery sources. Two of them will power your RV just fine. The main drawback to the Tesla's is that they were not designed for RV use. The circuit boards for example are not mil-spec for vibration. This can cause a problem over time. The lead acid batteries don't have this problem. They were designed from the beginning for mobile operation. I believe you mentioned that you were running a 48 volt system but she didn't talk about the configuration. Generally it's better to use lower voltage batteries with a higher amp hour rating and run them in series / parallel to get 48 volts to push into your inverter. You will end up with a higher amp hour rating by doing it this way. 6 volt batteries running in series parallel if you have the room, which you should since they're only the size of a golf cart battery, will do you well. The bottom line is as long as your solution is working for you my comment is irrelevant. Your solution is working for you.
I install systems on mountain tops that may or may not have a grid to tie into to begin with so everything is solar or wind or both or all three. There is something to be said about each battery choice. But when you're making the choice based on used products I cringe a little bit. On the plus side for you though, every cell site tower runs on a lead acid deep cycle 2 volt battery. Communication equipment requires specific voltages of dc current.
Most commonly, the requirements are positive 24 volts (+24 V) and negative 48 volts (-48 V). The higher-48 V value reduces associated current-and lighter current requirements allow for smaller and less expensive fuses, circuit breakers and cables. As a consequence, -48 V is rapidly becoming the dominant power supply voltage value.
You may not find it justifiable, and that's fine, but we do and we absolutely love them :)
How about Tesla Powerwall on an 40ft + RV feasible?.
My thing though is the Battleborn is overpriced for only 100ah when the Tesla Battery is 250ah for the same cost.
Also you can get 100ah AGMs for $150 on sale regularly. Get 6 of them and your at 600ah which is roughly equal to 300ah of Battleborn at 1/3 the cost.
If your only motivating factor is cost, then certainly buy the cheaper battery and lose all of the benefits. I could buy an iPhone 6 for a lot less than my iPhone 11, but we both know why I don't....
Honest question. These seem insanely expensive. $1000 for 100amphours. I can get 2 100amp hours leads for $150 (since they can only discharge to 50% you need 2)
anyway by my math that means the battle born would absolutely have to last at least 7 times longer than leads to offset their initial much higher price point!!!
What makes these batteries worth nearly 7 times the price in comparison?
I think I just answered my own question. RV. leads would be heavy as hell for an RV.
Nerys not only would they be heavy as hell, but yes, they easily outlast them by 7+ times. More importantly they offer vastly better charge and discharge parameters, bring me a couple 100ah lead acid batteries and let’s hook them up to my 2,520 watts of solar, or run either of my air conditioners from them. You’ll have boiling/destroyed batteries the same day.
Until you have used the battle born battries you won't get it. It's not the same performance by any standard. Lithium is the only way to go.
Perhaps, one of the biggest drawbacks to lead-acid batteries, apart from their relatively short life compared with LiFePO4 batteries, is a little understood factor, called the "Peukert effect." Basically, the Peukert law states that the greater the current draw from a lead acid battery, the less overall capacity it has. The rating for a lead acid battery is based on discharging it at a "20 hour rate." So, a 100 amp hour lead acid battery is rated at 100 amp hours only when it is discharged at a 5 amp rate. If you discharged it at 20 amps, you would not get five hours of use out of it. You would get more like two hours, or less, out of it. Why? First, because you can only discharge it by 50% before doing damage to it, and second, because of the Peukert effect that would diminish the overall capacity of the battery.
Another factor involved with lead acid batteries is the internal resistance and charging profile. You can charge lead acid batteries to about 80% of total capacity fairly quickly. They can take a lot of current to get them up to 80%. But, to get all the way up to 100% capacity takes a lot longer - longer even than getting them up to 80%. That's because the closer they get to being full, the less current they will accept. What that means in real terms is, if you are using a generator to recharge lead acid batteries, you will have to run it for several hours even after they're at 80% to get them totally topped off. In contrast, LiFePO4 batteries can take huge amounts of current almost all the way up to 100%. They taper off in how much current they can accept once they're at about 98% of full capacity.
Another factor to consider is that lead acid batteries HATE being left in a partial state of charge. Keeping a lead acid battery at 65%-70% will significantly shorten their life. On the other hand, LiFePO4 batteries LOVE to be kept at a partial state of charge. Indeed, for long term storage, keeping them at 35%-50% is preferred for longer life. And, keeping them at 65%-70% is perfectly acceptable for your normal use.
Finally, of course, the number of available charge cycles is MUCH higher with LiFePO4 batteries. Within LiFePO4 batteries, there can be differences in the chemistry, though. Depending on your application, you may wish to choose either a LiFePO4 battery that has about 3000 cycles life expectancy, but can provide up to three times its capacity (3C) on demand (300 amps draw from a 100 amp hour battery, for example), or a LiFePO4 battery that can provide about 4000 cycles life expectancy, but can only provide a constant 1C (100 amp draw for a 100 amp hour battery). The higher draw 3C batteries cost more and are better suited for electric car applications, or other high current demand applications. And, the lower draw capacity 1C batteries are better suited for lower current demand applications, like running an inverter in an RV. So, choose your type of LiFePO4 battery accordingly.
Hope this helps!
@@richardowens9061 very thorough answer thank you there's no question the lithium phosphate batteries are superior a longer-lasting and higher power and more convenient I just think they're more expensive as well even if I have to buy 3 / lithium battery and even if I have to replace them three times as often they still come out to be significantly cheaper
I do hope the cost of lithium batteries come down because of thousand dollars for One battery is a simple non starter for me I just don't have that kind of money
@@nerys71 I get it! I couldn't justify the cost for the Battle Born batteries myself - not because they're not worth it, but because I just couldn't afford them. So, I went with LiFePO4 batteries from a Chinese wholesaler. I got 48 of their 150 amp-hour 3.2 volt cells for a total of 23,040 watt-hours of capacity for about $4800.00, including shipping. Of course, the downside of my choice is that I also need a BMS that adds a cost of about $1200.00 to protect and manage them. But, I have the equivalent of 18 of the 100 amp-hour Battle Born batteries for a fraction of the cost. Another downside is that I'm dealing with a Chinese wholesaler, which means virtually no support and they're halfway around the world, if I have any warranty issues. But, I consider myself rather knowledgeable about electronics and battery technology, so I'm comfortable with my choice. LiFePO4 batteries CAN be purchased a LOT cheaper than the Battle Born batteries, but you do have to know what you're doing and what you're buying.
This time last year you were saying, "If I were to do it again I don’t know that I’d change much!" Now it's all about Battle Born. Why do I get the feeling we'll be seeing affiliate links show up in your channel soon?
I suppose peoples opinions are never allowed to change? As I said, the Tesla modules treated us just fine, but for us the risk just wasn't worth it. I'd love to have affiliate links showing up in my videos, it's quite easy to promote a product that is genuinely great. I'd also tell you an iPhone is a great phone, my Ram truck is an amazing truck and my Jayco Pinnacle trailer is incredible, doesn't mean anyone is paying me to say so. Eventually you'll realize that there are indeed people with affiliate links (hopefully I'm that guy one day) and there is a difference between intentionally swaying people for money and having an honest opinion. Some of us have a moral compass and would never represent a product they didn't believe in. I'm far from the only one who appreciates the quality of the product they provide.
@@muirindustries All plausible but not credible. Why are the older videos still up? Just charting the journey, I suppose. There must be iron ore in branding and promoting a channel because that moral compass seems to bear quite casually. Used to be in marketing and messaging over here. Always gotta sell yourself the lie first.
@@sp10sn so you'd prefer that I remove a video that talks about a system that does indeed work, because I later changed my system? Then what, I have a video about changing battery systems and no other video? You don't have to like, nor follow anything we post, that's totally fine! I'll be doing plenty more videos covering the products we do use, doesn't mean there is a hidden agenda. Maybe the easiest way to answer your question would be, the video is something like 8 months old, zero affiliate links posted, proof in the pudding? And who cares, lets say I did have an affiliate link, all of a sudden it's less honest? I've shared credit card links with friends to get both of us points, must've been a horrible card and I was just trying to screw them over right? C'mon.... You know better than that. Stop always assuming a great review must have negativity attached.
Great video
Yeah nice infomercial. You forgot to mention that the Tesla module under your elbow has 4 times more juice. We don’t buy cheapest phones, but we don’t buy a phone you need a briefcase to carry around (my uncle had those in 1980s)
Should upgrade to solid state batteries. More power lighter smaller and way safer.
So Tesla = $375/ kWh. Vs BB $800/kWh. That’s not insignificant
Great video, thank you. Did you stay with 24v or did you switch to 12v?
Any chance you could recommend a contractor, hopefully one with your level of expertise, who could design and install a solar power/lithium ion battery system for my upcoming truck camper purchase? I've communicated with the Battle Born folks and they were very helpful and quick to send me a quote for 3 batteries, a VE Bus, a DC-DC charger and a battery monitor, but they're not in the 'installation business.' Thanks. Jack
Hi Emory, if you still have it available, where can I find info on your DIY BMS for the Tesla modules?
I'll have to make it a point to do a video on the DIY BMS, that said I would HIGHLY recommend one of the commercially available ones, they are far more advanced and "safe" in my eyes
@@muirindustries I did a google search, and didn't come up with anything. Would you kindly point me in the right direction?
@@AdorableDeplorable1 www.batrium.com/ - heavily regarded as one of the best, I have zero knowledge of any aspect of it, but you'll continually see it praised on any forum etc. Hope that helps!
Awesome tech input! Thank you! You are talking about Tesla battery taken out of an EV. What about Tesla Powerwall, specifically made and designed for home/residential use?
Doesn’t work for RVs and super expensive for installation. It’s 13.5k for gen 2, with the same amount of kilowatts, but if you want solar, it’ll only work for their installers and with their equipment. It can make the one unit cost almost 30k to install, depending on locale.
Removed from a wrecked Tesla Model S
mention risk of fire 1x and I am not interested in that option - I went with 7 battle born 100amp
Yea im interested to know why not power wall that tesla put on a rv ?
I'm thinking of repowering my inboard style speedboat with an electric motor. Would these batteries be applicable in your opinion ? Right after I finish my ambulance/ camper conversion that is.
Thanks
Sure, with enough of them I don't see why not?
Totally nice breakdown man, easy to digest and understand. I've heard great things about Battleborn batteries but I'm glad to hear somebody actually give an example of application. I didn't even know you could purchase Tesla batteries separately, is that something offered at the Reno Gigafactory? I'm not exactly in the market right now for the entire vehicle just to salvage one battery for home experimenting haha.
Thank you! It's not something you can do, you basically have to buy them from a salvaged vehicle. They're fun to play with though!
@@muirindustries Ah I see, a shame they aren't commercially available. Well I do frequent the Reno area often to visit family so if you're willing to recommend a hook up or a salvage shop, I'd love to hear who you prefer! Exploring Tesla batteries is a new discovery for me so I'm trying to plant my feet on where to begin.
ScooterRealm I used eBay!
@@muirindustries No kidding, the answer seems so obvious now lol. Thanks for the info man, appreciate your time!
thank you if i olny had the cash what did you do with your tesla poject ???
We sold the batteries, it was an easy decision for us :)
interesting channel thx guys
Thanks for the feedback, we'll be doing quite a few more videos in the coming weeks as we start our trip around the country, I look forward to your feedback!
How about the new soild state batterys? Worth a look?
Nice backdrop!
Also, I appreciate your well-reasoned evaluation of the risks of salvage (or even new, for that matter) Tesla batteries in RE applications. Especially putting them into an RV...it's a recipe for disaster. Only a matter of time before one of these installs goes south in a terrible way.
Thanks! I have quite a few people asking "why" since there isn't any news of one happening, but someone has to be the first for everything, I just don't want that to be me or my family. All in all we couldn't be happier!
really? Do you have one installed? Exactly how much time does one need before they "go south"? Where are all the news articles about exploding RVs from Tesla batteries?
@@Brandywine-farm our RV was Tesla powered for a year and a half, I'm well versed in the battery system. There ARE RV's that have burned down from Tesla batteries (I have direct knowledge of this happening). You likely don't see many because, well, there aren't many in RV's as a whole. Nobody said it was time based, it's just a situation where you're using a relatively unsafe battery in an RV and we've chosen to upgrade. You're welcome to use Tesla batteries if you'd like!
@@Brandywine-farm A lack of evidence showing something is unsafe is not the same thing as an abundance of proof showing it to be safe. Think, for example, about Russian Roulette. There are very few installs like this, and (for now) they are mostly done by people equipped to take reasonable safety measures. Even if the news does report on a failure, it's pretty unlikely they'd pick up specifically on the Tesla aspect and include it. Why wouldn't it just be reported as "idiot in RV burns his family down"? I wouldn't even be surprised if it was misattributed to propane, since that's relatively common and some local reporter might not have the sense to pick up on the differences. The general public and media are, on the whole, completely uninformed about RVs, and especially boondocking RVs. And they have some pretty interesting ideas about the kinds of people that live in them, too. There's really just no reason to feel safe based on the current lack of stories. Anyway, there's plenty of stories of Teslas themselves catching fire, and that's a fully-engineered and tested product, not some DIY hack. How does your argument even make sense?
Canadian here! Where you from?
What about a Powerwall?
Doesn't the Battle Born system take up way more space than the old system? And what about the weight difference, since this is a mobile application? Thanks
Sorry for the delay! There is a size/weight difference, but not one that makes any real world difference to us. The footprint of both battery systems is almost the same (they both fit in the same area inside our storage bay). Battle Born batteries are physically larger, but again, still fit in the same area and yes the weight is higher, but the (12) batteries we installed weigh less than the factory Onan Generator that we could have installed in our RV. Keep in mind we're towing a 43' long 17,000 pound fifth wheel, a few hundred pounds just isn't something we care about, and the Tesla version still would have been ~150+ pounds. Most people aren't going to have 12 batteries like us, so weight is minimal (far lighter than lead acid).
$6400 just for batteries? Must be nice.
so true
thanks...
you do you. but I would much rather have the tesla banks at this point in time.
Trader.... oh well more Tesla modules for us.... can we have your extra fire extinguishers as well, you won't be needing those any longer. 🤪
I’m no economics major but here’s what I got from your statement. You spent 3k on Tesla’s including bms. Said, “getting a proper bms would add to the cost” so, because you didn’t want the added cost of a proper Tesla bms and your confidence in the Tesla, you scrapped the whole project losing 3k and a lot of time. Then, went and purchased 12k in battle born batteries. Now you’re at 15k plus a lot of time. Excuse me if I’m just more than confused as to why you just didn’t purchase a proper bms for your Tesla packs as many are readily available which would in fact give you the security you were seeking. Battle born batteries use a bms system that gives you confidence But now you have 12 bms systems you are depending on. The truth is to my knowledge there has never been an Rv fire due to aTesla battery.
Well, fortunately for me your math is flawed, and who would keep/not sell Tesla modules when done? Obviously those were sold. Additionally, you couldn't be more wrong, there have absolutely been RV's burned down due to Tesla batteries. You are more than welcome to pick the cheap option, it's your life to live :)
@@muirindustries I guess some of these guys don't understand how much peace of mind is worth to know you have done your best to whittle down all variables that could adversely affect your family. Its a no brainer what you did was the only sane solution regardless of the cost. Plus forget someone getting hurt, what if the trailer did burned down, the insurance company would have all kinds of room to deny a claim. How much money would that cost then? There are low chances we will be in a tornado, earthquake etc, yet we take measures to mitigate damage.
I am looking to replace my Tesla packs in my bus conversion, probably going to be a DIY 10P16S LifePO4 bank made up of 100Ah 3.2v prismatic modules. Knowing what I know, I wouldn't trust any battery with an internal BMS that I couldn't monitor, especially for the kinds of residential loads we're talking about.
My problem with the Tesla modules (2x in series, 48v) has been less low voltage... although that is a problem- and more scalability. I don't mind DIY BMSes and honestly I think the safety factor here is way, way overblown. Overcharge that battle born and you'll have the same _unstoppable_ toxic fire. Also, parallelizing _any_ lithium battery (Tesla, battle born, whatever) with an internal series of cells is a bad idea. If the BMS fails to cut off in the case a cell goes bad the other packs will start dumping energy into the good cells of the bad pack (with Tesla packs, high internal parallelization (74 cylinders per cell) and individual fuses to cut out bad cylinders prevent whole cells from going bad this way.) Even during normal operation energy will move between packs uncontrollably, reducing the available number of cycles.
Scalability is the real problem. Teslas are 6S74P internally and there's no changing that configuration. To increase capacity you either have to accept lower lifespan/risks and parallelize or higher voltage and run in series, the former case needing one BMS _per_ pack.
Teslas are _way_ cheaper per Wh, don't even try to make the cost comparison.
The Tesla and Battle Born batteries have a completely different chemistry, thus their fire danger is FAR from equal.
@@muirindustries Can you actually quantify the level of danger of each chemistry in any meaningful way?
All I said was that if you overcharge a lithium battery, yes even a battle born, you are risking an uncontrollable chemical fire. BBs have an internal BMS to prevent exactly that.
What it comes down to is that anyone charging lithium batteries needs a properly configured BMS.
LiFePO4 batteries burn very well also. The difference in fire risk is so small that they are considered in the same hazard class.
I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point
This does not correspond to my information. Can you substantiate your statement? Links?
Did you look at the renogy 170 AMP lithium?
I did not
Great fucking video
Subscribed
Thank you!
$800/kwh? Isn’t it $800 for 100AH?
Omg it is so hard to understand guy. He is like a robot talking no pauses at all. I’m non native.speak fluently but this is first video where I absolutely confused what’s he saying. Catch up general point but because of tone and no pauses no visuals it’s impossible to understand fully. But topic is very interesting.
Prismatic cells can cost a lot less.
Will a good harbor freight battery charger work on the battleborn???????
I'd have to look at the specs of the charger, but generally making the assumption that you can control it's charging characteristics I don't see why it couldn't be done
@@muirindustries don't use a 40 dollar chargr on a battleborn batt
This feels like Battleborn shilling and or a slow ad. No offense at all.
Good information but he delivers is so dull. Not a smile, so clinical. It's like he was reading off of a teleprompter.
I sadly can't argue that at all. Being the person who designed the system, installed the system, learned about how to shoot quality video and audio as well as how to articulate that to viewers, I have to admit, I'm about as boring as it gets. With time I'll open up, but the entire time I'm filming myself I'm thinking "Did I set the camera up right? Are the lights good? How is the audio? Did I press record???".... I can't act like I have acting skills, but I promise I'll get better as we start to travel :)
@@muirindustries I spent a lot of years as a television producer and director, I'd be happy to give you some tips. The biggest two tips I can offer are: 1) Put a smile in your voice and show it on your face without coming off looking fake. Changing the rise and fall of your voice is key along with smiling now and then. 2) Have a quick side story, joke, observation or something slightly personal to add without being off color - just be real, talk to the viewer like you would a best friend you'd be sitting on your back porch talking to. My father used to tell me when I first began appearing on live TV and taped shows, "You might want to let your face know that you're happy, satisfied or feeling anything remotely like happiness because from this end when your mom and I are watching at home- you are appearing like a zombie on the news." LOL! I hated it at first but then laughed. It took practice.
I love that you're clinical, I think a lot of your viewers want that to some degree so, be yourself, but also you want to shine that penny a little bit! Take a pause, a breath to relax, just start to feel more comfortable but remember - you have a job to do at the same time. Hope that helps! I know you're going to do better and better! Looking forward to seeing you blossom!
Battle born is like 1000$ each batt
Holllllly cow! 12 battle born batteries?!
I know it seems like a lot but I'm sure there are larger out there. Our goal is to essentially never need to use a generator and to accomplish that we need a pretty sizable battery bank. You could get away with MUCH less if you didn't need to run air conditioning. Ballparking I'd say 75% of our system is due to the desire to run air conditioning via solar, otherwise we could have a substantially smaller battery bank, solar array and even inverter setup.
Those roof units use a ton of energy.....don't know why these RV companies just go with the split units....probably space or looks.....
Michael Clayton I’ve done a mini split on a prior RV of ours and I can attest to the fact that they’re much more energy efficient. That said I’m sure 90% of the reason is cost and labor to install. RV’s are built extremely quick in a factory and the rooftop units are tried and true, they take very little time to install and people just want a rock bottom price.
@@muirindustries I mean there's not that much of a price difference but I guess ur right....they have been doing it forever....but I mean u get splits that run on like 500watts where these roof units use about 3 times that amount.....but anyway great vlog man.,real good content
That's $12,000 for a non-full timer. Rich guys with toys. Good for them.
We did a DIY liFePo4 24v system on a 45' catamaran. 20kw 32x3.2v CALB cells in a 2P8Sx2P (about $8k from electriccarpartscompany.com plus Emus BMS . 1800w of solar and a 5kw Large frame high output alternator if extra charging is needed. We have 2 9k BTU air con units, 3 freezers 2 ridges, microwave, toaster, watermaker plus many other high load appliances. How long have you been running the Battleborn batteries? any issues with them getting out of balance with each other?
That's an impressive system! We're at about 3 weeks on them so I think that's still short term enough that I can't say exactly as far as balance BUT I would venture to guess they "never will" get out of balance. My reasoning for that is that each battery has it's own integrated BMS and thus it would independently cut charging off and eventually they'd all be completely full and somewhat "self balance" if that makes sense?
I had two strings of 12V Battle Borns (24V system) connected in parallel. Keeping them balanced was just as difficult as balancing lead acid batteries. I had to do all the same tricks as I did with my old lead acid bank.
@@leisuresolarltd1005 I'd be interested in seeing how they were wired, I wouldn't expect you to need to do that at all
@@muirindustries My answer was deliberately short, and intended to let people know that you need to follow the same good wiring and use practices that you need to with lead acid. The series/parallel connections required to turn 12V batteries into a large 24V bank are prone to wiribng errors. One common mistake people make on a 24V system is they will tap one battery to drive their 12V loads. That will create an unbalance that the BB built in equalization cannot overcome. Another common mistake is that you need to wire the batteries in such a way that you force equal currents through the parallel strings. For example, connect the positive at the top of string one and the negative at the bottom of string two. The BB equalization process is only hundreds of milliamps, intended to keep ONE battery balanced. It will not overcome bad wiring and use practices.
Battery ejection system!
who the hell is the "average" person that buys a $950 battery.
Seemingly a lot of people. Again it’s not a “cheap” price up front but it is a savings over time, and for a much better product than anything lead acid.
Additionally, lots of us are carrying around cell phones that cost more, it puts things in perspective.
so, if you are dumb, don't understand electricity, or are otherwise incompetent. spend the extra 400% for a battery that weighs twice as much. lol Edit - they weigh 3 times as much.
I won't even get into the details beyond the fact that you didn't even spell "incompetent" correctly...
You went from bad to worse.....! BB's are any good either.......! Oh well..... is your $$$$$$$$$$$$.....
Nissan leaf>Tesla
Maybe in safety but certainly not in energy density nor lifespan.
@@muirindustries the energy density forsure.. but not by that much, especially compared to lead acid. And as far as lifespan I don't think we really can say anything about that yet... also the leaf batteries you have to admit are really as easy as any other batteries on the market plus they stack!
@@wily4422 they're not bad that's for sure, but more work than I wanted to put in ;)
@@wily4422 I have considered both the Tesla modules and the Leaf modules. And, I determined that both have their strengths and drawbacks. The Tesla modules are high density and light weight. The Leaf modules are not as high density and not quite as light weight, but are highly configurable for your voltage requirements. But, apart from the drawbacks mentioned in this video, I decided against both the Tesla modules and the Leaf modules because they're used. They are "black boxes" that can be highly variable in their actual capacity. The Nissan Leaf modules, for example, are typically about 75% of their original capacity when purchased used. So, I have no idea how many cycles they might have left in them. So, I chose to go with brand new LiFePO4 3.2 volt cells that each have 150 amp hours of capacity - 48 of them - for a total capacity of about 23 kilowatt-hours of capacity and an estimated 4000 cycles of life expectancy for a cost of about $4800.00. This gives me the equivalent of 18 of the 100 amp hour Battle Born batteries. Of course, the BMS is a separate component to the system and adds about $1200 dollars of cost. But, I'm still WAY ahead in terms of cost, compared to the Battle Born batteries. The downside of the option I chose is that I'm dealing with a Chinese wholesaler for the batteries, so virtually no support and they're half way around the world, if any warranty issues arise. But, the cells all checked out fine and as long as I treat them the way they are supposed to be treated, I should have no problems.
@@richardowens9061 What is the overall voltage of the batteries you purchased? 48V? 24V? 12V? I'm trying to choose components for the BMS but the overall voltage isn't clear on the website.