Should the Thirty Meter Telescope Be Built? | Insights on PBS Hawai'i
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 พ.ย. 2024
- Construction of a Thirty Meter Telescope on Mauna Kea has been brought to a temporary halt as protests over building the 18-story high telescope stretch across the globe. Plans to build the $1.4 billion telescope have been seven years in the making, but opposition only gained momentum recently amid growing concern over further astronomy-related development on land Native Hawaiians consider sacred. Malia Mattoch moderates the discussion.
Tonight’s panelists include (In alphabetical order):
Paul Coleman, Astrophysicist, Institute for Astronomy, University of Hawaii-Manoa
Richard Ha, Hawaii Island Farmer and Businessman
Jon Osorio, Board President, KAHEA, a Hawaiian-Environmental Alliance
Kealoha Pisciotta, President, Mauna Kea Anaina Hou
Original Airdate: 4/30/15
This content is made possible by viewers like you. Support PBS Hawaiʻi: www.pbshawaii....
#hawaii #pbs #astronomy
I understand both sides.. the perfect atmosphere, height, space, etc.. and on the other side it is sacred it is apart of us..it is where we are connected ... It is a hard decision.. Our desire for knowledge and desire to be close to our ancestors and culture.. It boils down to what is truly the best ..truly right... Great panel
Oahu Girl Friday
There is no decision. Sacred is sacred.
No man (or woman) can use little minds to act as God,
Sacred is sacred.
Done.
It’s an absolute.
@@thesource479 When exactly did it become "sacred"? Was it sacred when the Tahitians colonized, marauder, killed, raped and tortured the Marquesans? Was it sacred before anyone ever came? Lmao. "Sacred" Typing "lol" doesn't do it enough justice.
So why is our judicial system keep looking the other way if so many laws are being broken?
Reuben Ah Sam that’s how it’s done in America the pirating organization. Illegal military invasion and occupation, America the Master treaty breaker, sanctioning any other country that wants to honor Law and Legal binding treaties. Understand Conversion of lies into rhetoric of justification.
Reuben Ah Sam, why do you break the Hawaiian kings’ law that outlawed idol worship, including Mauna Kea.
What is a terrascope?
It is not our judicial system.
False image.
We, have not come together, and created our own systems.
Yet.
@@thesource479 Not your judicial system? Cool. Then it's not your education system, or your welfare system, or your police, fire and rescue either...see how that works? I'm a.o.k. with taking everything away from you,...I mean if you reject the courts. How about we just let Russia come and wipe you all out and rip up the islands for rhodium? Sound good? Good.
Respect the sacred🧡✊
In 1616 Galileo was prohibited to continue he's work on astronomy because it was against the church's religious belief. I thought we have moved on since?
media.giphy.com/media/uVP9uBjJbQaFW/giphy.gif
Sadly, unfavorable themes in history do seem to be repeating themselves lately.
It's not the same. This is about indigenous ways of life which is beyond religion.
@@a.e.rromero5403 you are so right, they can even be endemic to the region, like many other indigenous plants. I'll give you, an example the 'ohia tree' not taken care of they could be threatened, with extinction.
Never let money be an excuse to do harm
As opposed to ignorance?
What money? if anyone is making it is the locals who will perish from job opportunity.
YES to TMT!
Kealoha, mahalo for speaking with clarity and brilliance and leadership abilities.
It can easily be built in the canary islands so just build it there.
Let's build it in Europe, JUST DO IT THERE!!!!
@@jahz7087 well it's being funded by Canada so we should actually replace their maple trees with TMT
There are Sacred lands in the Canaries too!! What is of Guanche?They too died like flies from disease from Spanish conquest as well.Consider that Option. No telescope there either !
@@williamdrummond18 you're right and when I learned that I changed my views. Canary islands should not be touched by TMT either so since Canada wants it, Canada should make space there for it
@@williamdrummond18 the guanches were slaughtered by the Spanish in the 15th.Centuary. tgey are not going to complain.
Excellent program
The ancestors of the Hawaiians bellyaching about this project were the best celestial navigators this world has ever seen - they would be THRILLED at the potential of this instrument, understand its value perfectly, and be mystified by the obstructionism of their progeny...
Actually, a comment like yours - a strong opinion with zero supporting argument - is MUCH dumber...
Yes my ancestors were the greatest navigators ever on the planet. But they did not desecrate our highest temple
Tablature Butler, my ancestors were the best celestial navigators and so are a couple of my relatives right now. However they would never desecrate the most highest realm of God at the summit of Mauna a Wakea. Yes, Wakea aka "Sky Father" is close to the realm of the Gods atop Mauna a Wakea. It doesn't matter what you think, it only matters that this is Hawaii and this is what many Kanaka Maoli believe. The reason why nothing has ever been developed before I was born for many generations on the mountains is because they're sacred, it's always been known to be. Even the snows of Poliahu is sacred and should not be removed for waste. Waiau is healing waters. My ancestors may curse these people for the mercury and toxic leaks on the sacred mauna, that is proven to be the islands main aquifer (Water Is Life!). Maybe erupt... hmm.. maybe that will clean up the DU at Pohakuloa that the US government has destroyed, DU has a half life of 14 billion years. The only way to clean that shit up might be for Pele to erupt over Pohakuloa that is 5x the area of the entire island of Kahoolawe that is totally destroyed by the military, they cracked the water table there and ordnance is still not cleaned and won't be any time soon.
There are many reasons not to build another damn telescope up there. If anything they should break one that's obsolete and build over it. One reason that shouldn't be considered though is mythical gods. Pele, Maui (No Ka oi), and others are the same as Greek mythical Gods. Hawaiians past and present realizes this and found Christ.
No TMT no telescope. Just pure love for the Land let the land be free of objects so that the kupuna can walk freely and our keiki can be happy mahalo aloha
Fuck you.
Boblarson stupid Haole!!! 👊🏽🤬
@@kegs5556 take your science and go to the Canary islands and take your telescope with you 🙊🙊
@@patrickgambsky6290 Fuck you.
It's a good thing. Galileo didn't listen to the Catholic church
They always claim is for science and astronomy, but yet I don't see any claims that they made any discoveries.
UH needs to be stripped of any rights to Mauna Kea period.
Who is that guy with the shifty eyes? It is easy to tell here who is speaking from the heart, with caring for the environment and speaking intelligently. And it is not the guy who keeps talking about the "rubba slippa folks"
For someone who says she doesn't care about the money, she did nothing but talk about money.
Ignorant response
@@starseed68 did you mean to say ignorant comment? Because technically you responded.
@@AnubisSolvang actually NO.
@@AnubisSolvang dont bother. These plebs dont even know how to speak. Then they'll tell you how it's white mans fault they didn't bother to read or study for themselves. 🤣🤦♂️
@@djstrongarmgmail I give up already, it would have been great for our economy here in Hawaii but nope, dumb people wanna stay dumb. Humanity as a whole will continue to further its knowledge and advance while the ignorant will stay ignorant. Sadly the majority of humanity is extremely dumb.
Telescopes are very limited, no matter the latest and greatest.
Yeah they're gonna build it despite the protests, and it will break down in 4 years or become obsolete in 4 years.
@@kama3759 ..hopefully they won't, and they decide to go to Spain.
@@cndvd I wish they would. But from what I heard, they can't back down because they already took money offered from TMT and spent it on the railway in Honolulu. Ige already sold us out. If that's true, thats fucked up.
@Sage Hiker ....You just answered the question about why "the Hawaiians" are "protecting" the mountain. Think about it.
@Sage Hiker . Yes you said the answer. Just think about what you are saying. Keep repeating what you are saying over and over and over. It will come to you .
You are absolutely correct... the mountain called ...Mauna Kea will never know or care about YOU , ME or ANY of the HAWAIIANS, so why protect it ....or..... why "protect" it ?
That's funny though....you speak as if you are the mountain...like you are "defending" it...but you are I know you like minimizing it. Guess what the mountain don't give a shit what YOU think ..and what your thoughts are...YOU are insignificant to it......so you are on the right track. Just get a little bit smarter and you will know really why the Hawaiians are "protecting" it. The land you are standing on don't care about you either, it will never know you existed, it don't need you standing on it, it won't need you in the present or the future.
This aged well Ku Kia’i Mauna 🙏
Paul, sorry build that telescope on another island and 1,000,000 a year is nothing compared to the desecration of the mauna . . . No way and actions speak louder and the inauthentic words being said by those who have have selfish needs . . . Leases on these lands need to be pulled . . . The people of the world can't even take care of the people here and rather look away into space while people go hungry, no education, no homes, unhealthy foods and so on all for money. Paul im sorry there is no way i or millions of other believe you.
The truth is, the very question of what the ancient Hawaiians would think of the Thirty Meter Telescope is beside the point as they would NEVER allow the desecration of their most holy place. There is a great deal that can be debated, but this is simply accurate. The protest is not against the telescope, it is against further telescopes on Mauna Kea and the removal of what is there now or...at least returning the mountain to the minimal disturbance as negotiated and recorded in the 65 year lease.
Mark Miller 👍🏾
Is it 65yrs PER SCOPE? if it is? A new one will pop up... jus saying. And as Sista was saying. Those scopes aren't paying rent into DHHL. Again Hawaiians RIPPED OFF. and all for MONEY. SELLING OUT OUR CULTURE. MONEY THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL nothing to the betterment of our People.
@@venaz12009 So, what are YOU doing for the "betterment of our people"? Name ONE thing. You go clean up garbage on the beach? You raise money and donate it to organizations that feed homeless Hasaiians? You volunteer at ANYTHING? You working with locals to help get people off the fucking ice? You doing ANYTHING besides complaining? And by "our people" you mean everyone who lives on the islands, right? Or just brown people with mixed Polynesian blood?
How holy is it if people didn't protest the other telescopes? How holy is it that no ones doing anything about people littering, and actual desecration that does in fact go on? "This protest (thank you for calling it what it is) is not about the telescope, it is against further telescopes on Mauna Kea." Ummm, I'm pretty sure they are protesting THIS telescope. Lol. Since, logically there arent any other telescopes being proposed...am I missing something? Lol. And, sorry but even of your assertion is incorrect and they ARE protesting the telescope (which they are) you just completely contradicted yourself. Do you really not see that? "This protest is not about the telescope, it is against further telescopes on Mauna Kea." Are you picking up what I'm putting down? Further telescopes...like this one...so, yeah,...this is entirely about the TMT. 🤦♂️
No matter what they still going to build it
These guests are so beautifully representing their views. I'm impressed and inspired by their warm and even keeled demeanor.
2 uncle toms. Remove existing decommissioned telescopes and restore their footprints to original condition. Hawaii has been, for far too long, desecrated by foreign entities
Business deals are not pono Science.
We had the same pilikea for the rail transit. Everyone was pump up about the honolulu trainsit rail but look now. NOT THING. All kanaka maole should be concern. Hello.knock, knock!!!
TMT is not going to happen.
Paul Coleman is Hawaiian? He sure sounds Haoule. How much money is going into his pocket?
You mean haole.
That would be Dr. Paul Coleman, the FIRST Native Hawaiian to earn a doctorate in astrophysics. Mahalo for your contributions to science and for your love of Hawaii, Dr. Coleman. May you rest in peace.
@@bullyboy131 lol yeah Hauole
So you have to sound pidgin to be Hawaiian? Pretty sure that a negative 🤣
Common ha, ha, food sustainability and lifestyle change.
Dr. Coleman should learn his heritage!
Of course, the Japanese businessman talking about TMT if they were to put it up on the mauna, the counties would “benefit” the funds of the telescope😄🤡
Tell him to go build the TMT on Mount Fuji, he could get a lot more supporters from his kind of like minded people out there 😁🤙🏽
Rubbah slippah folks wowwwww
What is title insurance? Google it...this should hint to you that investments are not guaranteed because Hawaii lands are being sold, leased, etc by those with no authority to do so. Hence the reason for title insurance
First, I’d like to compliment Ms. Maddock on a very good job as moderator ! Now the panel & discussion - An Important issue. in Hawai’i & our peoples. Good points made & countered - Although, at times it seemed they were ill prepared or distracted.
My personal opinion is No TMT !
How does this telescope interfere with your ability to track anything? And it’s not some subjective issues of science superiority?! There is no alternative in Hawaii culture to being able to look into space.
Build the TMT elsewhere, like Mount Rushmore or Mt. Fuji, Mount Sinai, Mt. Olympus, Jabal al-Nour, Mt. Blanc, Mt. Everest, Ayer's Rock --- no, not there.
Don't stop science dear Hawaiians. Please, people of the Earth.
Only a small amount of people here in Hawaii are against building the TMT. Most of us are on the side of science.
none living things must depend on living things period!
that's science.
It I the MAJORITY who oppose TMT
You're putting faith in bad technology....telescopes on a mountain is NOT modern technology no matter "the latest and greatest". "Science" you are fooling yourself. Wake up.
Not stopping science. We are stopping the desecration of our sacred mauna. Plan B is to build on the Canary Islands. Build it there. Nobody will stop TMT from going there
Dude with the lay on his neck literally says "tmt us trying to do it right. But he don't care! Bahah"
Mauna kea was the pivot point of hawaiian navigation. Astronomy is science. Is knowledge and hawaiian navigation seacred??. Why can't both side find common grounds. I am for the telescope but is the pilikea of our today assumming what is and is not?? The ola calls out for higher knowledge and understanding. Our past ancestors was pathfinders. Astronomy is seeing back in time to move forward. E ho mai ka iki mai luna mai e. The pilikea I see is money and power. Science and education is secondary.
I thank you for being rational and giving the benefit of the doubt.
Is this available in transcript form somewhere?
17:20 - Kealoha, drenched in Western superiority, from the clothes on her back, the T.V. Station she is using to put out her message, to her house and healthcare, and the plane that flies her inner island and THE CAR THAT DRIVES HER UP THE MOUNTAIN. When is the last time she walked from Hilo to the top of Mauna Kea with homemade shoes and clothes like our ancestors did? Never that’s when. You know how cold it is up there at 15,000 feet. Freezing, and very windy. You can hardly spend 20 minutes outside the car with heater running without ski gloves, gortex jacket, beanie on your head, pants and boots. I have no idea how the ancients did it. Some hardcore mofo’s. Not fat and plugged up with Western superior processed food.
xonage2 your an idiot
This response is weak and ignorant, wake up
@@starseed68 at least it was more than a one sentence attack...like the amazing contribution you made...
@@allblind8088 it's "you're" as in "you are" I wonder if the irony of calling someone an idiot, while not knowing the difference, is wasted on you?
Disrespectful comment. Take your tanks and your navy that poisons our water and go the fuck to Guam because the majority of kanaka wants your head.
Mr. Ha seems like he's there because they couldn't find another person to argue for pro-tmt. He seems outclassed
You are wrong or short on a useful and unstoppable paradigm in humanity's development. (I say this respectfully). I believe science and culture and if need be religions too, can co-exist. The future belongs to the kids if today and they are changing and seeing the importance of science whether we see it or not. Whether we like it or not they will bring about change and will and are embracing science.
It saddens me to see you are being short-sighted when saying or implying the kids in Hawaii should not dream Big and white sands and tourism should suffice. I LOVE Hawaii and Hawaiian people through my possibly hundreds of trips and stays over there as a 3 decade transplant Californian, World wide worker-traveler born outside the United States and have many friends in HI who are fighting for awareness of Hawaiians' cultural struggles as well. I know both sides and points of views.
I can clearly say this that embracing science and development, especially better education is VERY IMPORTANT and almost like a salvation that needs to be embraced by ALL of humanity. With pandemics like CoronaVirus you can already see how fragile tourism based economies can be.
Also HI how wonderful would it be if HI develops specific educational and scientific strengths as well as pineapples and touristic beauties.
The future is unstoppable so is development.
How nice would it be if HI becomes a scientific powerhouse with it's kids turning into indigenous scientists, on the road to MARS and the MOON or even mining the astroids or space rocks.
Look at other previously less developed or emerging nations and markets, they all came out ahead because they learned to balance science and cultural and religious beliefs, but embraced science and became experts in something useful for the future.
Development is a tidal wave that all of HI people should learn to ride and use it to it's benefit. Mr. Ha is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT..
Let us face it all environmental studies also indicate there are no impacts on top. With much love and respect, I think you should reconsider for the sake of our future and kids futures.
WTF does “decoration is not education” even mean?! It means nothing. How the hell is it decorating anything anyway?
Went back to see and hear what she actually said, she said: desecration not decoration.
You get stink ear.
@@vp3970 it’s called a typo…ie; “auto-incorrect” on my phone. Still same question: WTF does “desiccation is not education” even mean? Etc !
Guy with lei wants 20%. Hammerhead lady wants more $. Trying to strong arm w bs. Cmon greedy peeps. Grow up
Paul Coleman, you want to go beyond what you can see with your eyes?
Meditate into your heart.
Many have seen what you are seeking, for millennia.
This is the problem with Hawaii. Even Hawaiians can't get on the same page because of severe differences of opinions based solely on racism and nationalism. Lies abound from the side of superstition. You should see them fight about who has more royal blood. This is exactly how the islands were "stolen by imperialists" (false narrative) It's simple in-fighting. This push against TMT is ALL about a very misguided attempt at a "win" for nationalists pushing a racist false narrative. Where were they when plans for new foreign owned hotels went public? Where were they when sacred heiaus were being desecrated? The caller suggests the need for food and services...why arent these people actually doing something to fix those problems? Oh, right...let's just bully the scientists that we know won't send armed guards to kick us out. What a joke.
Why is economics such a stand out point❓Food production is one thing we all need and can do.When that is sustained and in abundance. Oxygen, water and food are the only requirements of life for human beings.Then maybe negotiations can persist in other directions. For generations our ancient practices have fed our people. Why then does it not make any sense to continue doing something proven. It’s part of the continued denationalized narrative. Control of the people equal control of their land. Take away their food source make them dependent on your resources. Yes you got them where you need them to be. DEPENDENTS. NOT WHERE WE WANT TO BE PERIOD‼️
To answer the question in the title: "YES". Science should always trump superstition. Human progress over human ignorance.
@M W pretty sure what you're doing is called "projecting." In reality, the only people spewing ignorance, or anything else, are people against TMT. And it really doesnt take much of a nudge to get anyone involved to show just how racist and nationalistic they truly are.
@M W do you get paid to be the poster child of abject ignorance, or is it something you do voluntarily? People against TMT are not just stuck in the past about superstition, they're also stuck in the past regarding how the other telescope project have been handled. You're so paranoid and nationalistic that you wouldn't believe actual data and fact based science if it were presented by educated Hwwaaians with no bias or money driven agenda...like a University...oh, wait...🤦♂️
@M W I know all about desecration buddy. Where were you when ACTUAL sacred sites like the Heiaus of Haleiwa were being desecrated? Couldnt be bothered then I guess. That wasn't a big enough format to push for racist, nationalistic sovereignty.
Consideration for Astronomers - learn remote viewing for a closer than closer look!
Y’all are hypocrites! No telescope but Larry Ellison can do what he pleases on Lanai without ANY locals grumbling! Disgusting!
Lana’i and Ni’ihau were sold by Ali way way back in the day. Sold to haoles
Elizabeth Sinclair purchased it from King Kamehameha V in 1864… so if it’s okay with Hawaii’s King at the time… who are you to say otherwise? You fall into that trap of looking at past historical events looking through the lenses of 21st Century eyes!
Race is everything to racist’s!
@@kehenabeach4418
First of all you need to shut your mouth, this is not your kuleana. Second you are mahaoi like the haole you are. Third back in the day was the king and not too long after Kamehameha 5 we began electing our Monarchs, today we run the show and you get no say, so hamau kou waha. Aina Hawaii not for sale it’s for my grandchildren.
Do you really need to ask? Should we build a mountain on your church?
Bad analogy.
Money is something we create. It is man-made. It is a creation of the mind.
The green papers and numbers on the screen that have no accountability systems built in, this the end.
Money, going forward, will only be funds. Funds for clear purposes, with accountability.
This is simple. Little minds that can’t figure out how to get enough money, they are either ignorant, or are using this tactic to pull at the heart strings of ignorant people, to take advantage.
I think the best place to build TMT telescopes is below the Pacific Ocean. once and for all.
A terrascope uses the earth’s atmosphere as a lense...
It’s 300,000 times stronger than anything we’ve got on the books today...
Scientifically speaking, TMT is DOA...
The lense has nothing to do with the amount of light that can be collected both with a 30 meter dish, and the lack of light on the mountain.
David Armstrong ...then make it three feet across...
Your point doesn’t negate the given claim...
@@72marshflower15 dude are you high? The terrascope is an IDEA. An IDEA. One that isn't reality as of yet. It's a great idea. No challenge there. But, again...a LENSE (which focuses) has NOTHING TO DO with SENSOR (which collects light) and AGAIN has nothing to do with the lack of light needed to see into deep space. YOUR "point" if you can even call it that, is at this time pure speculation and absolutely negates any validity to your own spurious claim.
David Armstrong ...you brought up a counter to a point I never made, so your responses are... fruitless..
I never said anything about the about of light a lense can or can’t take in...
Why would a lense have anything to do with the lack of light on a mountain? That wasn’t even the point.
You only bring up peripheral claims to gaslight the conversation...
Your assertions don’t negate the original point given that you’re assertions literally don’t address the point given, but instead aim for a claim I never made...
Seems you jus like to argue...
Take care now...
@@72marshflower15 your initial comment talked about atmosphere as a lense. The TMT isn't powerful because of a lense. It is because of it's ABILITY TO COLLECT LIGHT. And thus Mauna Kea being the best place for that...because of the LACK OF LIGHT.
Your claim is that "TMT is DOA" comparing it to technology THAT ISN'T EVEN A REALITY YET.
Fuckig idiot. You WOULD be against TMT, with an extreme lack of basic understanding of just about everything, including what gaslighting actually is.
I'm very sorry you weren't allowed access to the kind of education that would have actually helped your brain.
Again we as kanaka, donʻt get a paycheck in our pockets for the trillions of monies that TMT will be generating. We are not poor people, we wear slippas because we want to. We would not be poor if Big business put monies into is kanaka pockets, instead of keeping it for themselves. Itʻs about desecreting the land that we have left. Not one more of what government did to Kahoolawe. We care more for our land than money. We survived without big business here before. Yes we have modern things, and we had it before the US came. We had the first light, before the US. We need government to stop ruining and raping our lands. We as kanaka are satisfied with what we have. We need people to stop TMT. We will not give our aloha to people that come here with no aloha, and want to just take from us. This is our land, not the worlds to come and take. War crime is what is happening, read the history. Government and big business, the rich come and take what they want. We will stand together as kanaka, enough is enough. We lived and continue to live off the land where we can. No TMT. Not another Kahoolawe.
We need an updated version of this. I love that all of them were respectfully debating and not getting nasty. We need REAL information and facts to be put out there and not the vicious rumor mill that is social media.
Let’s settle this once and for all. Hold a contest, a race from Hilo to the top of Mauna Kea. Tradition vs Western Superiority. Jogging or walking with handmade grass slippaz vs a car. Whoever gets there first wins 💪🏼
xonage2 or scrap for it their best vs ours
...What does that say about rule of law in Hawaii...lmao...
hawaii will be developed, not as crazy as honolulu, but it will be just like any land, cant stop change, live for people not for land.
can you live without land?
@@mr.chuuktruetells6571 yes actually, the international space station is constantly studying that.
Only the opinions of the beneficiaries matter. That’s following US law which implemented blood quantum. Native Hawaiians did not make this requirement, the US did. So following US law, which is what we are forced to do, although illegal as they are an occupying force, beneficiaries have the authority to decide NO ONE Else, sorry that you are disappointed 😞 We are losing faith and trust in the law because following the law is apparently selective. Shall we selectively follow the law as well? That’s what will happen when people no longer believe in the system.
The wheel in the sky stopped turnin when the fool on the hill saw the world spinnin round all navigation is geocentric astronomy all astronomical experiments since 1880 indicate a geocentric fixed in space Earth aligned with a fixed star Hoku Paa the Polestar-North Star Polaris & the Southern Cross we don't need any telescopes to see that with our bare eyes here in Hawaii Mauna Kea provides the best place on Earth to see the broadest span of the rotating universe this particular mountain is sacred & a Tower of Babyl to be built on the top of Mauna Kea is an open insult to the Supreme Being the Hawaiian elders & the Aina no amount of money can justify desecration of this Holy Place the pinnacle on Mauna Kea is a Temple.
Wow. Way to set everything back a few thousand years. Geocentric model has thoroughly been proven as false. "Wheel in the sky"? "Tower of Babyl"? Are you having a stroke?
22?? that blue shirt is a sell out.
...get pilau Hawaiian...get pono Hawaiian...two of each...here... Christopher March Waikiki i'o kea Kamakahelei Baker Raymond...
Ay apo! No ania ania ti mapagdadawelan dagita nga Amerikano aya... Awan la ketdi ti mapanpanunot da... Napatpateg ken kuada ti siensya kaysa tay madadael nga aglawlaw.
Keep continent things on a continent and island things on a island. 30 meter scope no belong on a island, belongs on a continent.
There is a lot here to comment on but I would like to at least comment on something Dr. Coleman stated.
Being uniquely Hawaiian does not require a thirty day canoe trip across the South Pacific however, if we are to discuss the navigator that made that first trip to Hawaii, perhaps we should mention the name that Hawaiian tradition holds to be that man...Wākea, father of Mauna a Wākea. In the genealogy chants, Wākea is the father to the ali'i as a real man and is worshiped as a deity much as a man named Jesus is by Christians. Not an oversimplification.
More religious hooey standing in the way of real scientific progress. Time to live in the real world Hawaii. This is a sad joke.
+Dono Drawesome The real world? I wonder what you are smoking?
Believe in whatever you want, as soon as you think it has some kind of authority over ANYONE else, youre in dreamland.
+Dono Drawesome TMT lost their permit.
DISRESPECTING MOTHER EARTH! YOU WILL LEARN THE HARD WAY! THAT'S ALL.
anon wow, what an asshole; I’d like to punch you in the face. Lmk where for find you
I just hope this telescope gets built and the activists go home.
Put it on Mt Rushmore 😅 oops Rushmore is own by our cousins The first people of America
The “Sacredness” amounts to nothing
Perhaps not to you. But to other people, it means a lot.
@Stargazer H
I agree with you on this topic.
@@adamlevy8971
The sacredness of the Aztec's rituals meant much to them when they were sacrificing innocent children and adults at the top of their pyramids, that was not sacredness, it was a strong delusion. To those other people where so-called sacredness means a lot to them, they are deluding themselves, and this is why the empirical sciences and freethought need to be more widespread.
Some of those native Hawaiians hold so much respect and tolerance to parasitic and negative memes that have been passed down by their ancestors, some of them being ignorant, gullible and fearful, these primitive ideas and traditions have survived as parasites to the human minds that keep them in preservation. The memeplex that makes up the native Hawaiian religion is primitive and useless, it needs to be eradicated.
So this Coleman is brown outside and white inside....go figure.
So you're a bitch on the inside and a racist bucket of shit on the outside?
The most important is the life of our children for their future. Those that oppose TMT can you really allow your children to face the same DEMONS you have been fighting? This is the question! Are you willing to have the next generation live under the oppressive economy we have been living in presently. So, you really believe your ideology of life in Hawaii today and protecting the Aina will make it better for our children. I don't think so... that will never leave us as Hawaiian... Let me be the first to say...you are wrong. Aside from our beautiful beaches you have lived through and will continue to live until you are dead and gone will not influence the survival of our children. They will continue to be in lack. I highly respect the Sacred places of our ancestors, the He'iau, the "Mokapu", that will never bring our young ones to a higher standard of being a proud Hawaiian...not a low income keiki that is stuck in the idealogy of a brainwashed lifestyle that tells Hawaiian...love the aina but doesn't have nothing to prove that the aina actually did something for them. Generations go by protecting the land and the kids live in low income housing as their mom and pops...die without a story to tell their ohana. Please!
You're putting faith in bad technology....telescopes on a mountain is NOT modern technology no matter "the latest and greatest". "Science" you are fooling yourself.
"And anyways, who's in the office of Mauna Kea managment...?"
What an ugly, smug bitch. Lies pouring out your eyes, sweetie. I'm surprised more people don't see it. Just look at her micro expressions. She's signaling wildly and trying to cover ticks she knows she has. Shoulders,...attitude. Pathological liar.
We need casinos, hotels and higher taxes on wealthy retired Americans from the mainland. The TMT project offers little in the way of jobs for local Hawaiians. Who cares if the TMT project desecrates indigenous cultural practices on the Canary Islands. Our island, our world.
Why can’t the old telescopes be diamanté’d for new ones?
They are removing 5 of them. It's in the agreement to have 5 removed by the time the new telescope is completed.
@@AnubisSolvang they said that 5 years ago..still there
@@judithwood451 you kind of need access to the site and equipment to dismantle them.
@@AnubisSolvang 🤣🤦♂️
Desicration for economic advances is no replacement for spiritual insight and respect for the aina.
I'm hawaiian and I don't consider building another telescope to be desecration, I consider it exploration, not unlike our early ancestors that looked to the stars. I do not pick and choose what to follow, as a religion, from our past. There can be a respect for our culture and and our past without time-freezing our economy and education in the 60s-70s.
As citizen of Hawaii and America, when laws are subjugated by a vocal minority when the outcome of legal means don't go their way is troubling to very fabric of society. I question if that isn't the actual goal.
As to religious significance, I take offense to those that warp history and feign piety to make political gains. Other than the lack of reason with the anti-tmt debate, the ugly reinventing of our past and culture upsets me deeply.
As an old woman, I can tell you that the argument "people will think it's hard to do business in Hawaii" has been used for every problematic project in the state since I was a child. So has "there has already been too much money put into this to back out now." They know this and they make this happen that way. That's how they plan their tactic for invading Hawaii's sovereignty, much less that of Kanaka Maoli. It turns into the only real issue, with all others swept aside and the fear of economic loss wins out. That is not all there is to life or Hawaii. Lots of local people have left the islands reluctantly but now feel reluctant to ever return to live because of the corruption and economic hardship for all but the bosses who are the few who benefit from such projects. That isn't because there isn't enough economic activity, but because of the increasing locking-out of opportunity for the ordinary ambitious person or family or ohana. Thank you to Kealoha and Jon for their lifelong dedication to these issues.
There are also a great many Hawaiians who are too proud to act like perpetual victims,...that work hard at getting an education, so they can actually contribute to making life better for ALL islanders (not just the ones with brown skin) and are absolutely pushing for TMT to be built.
Lots of haoles and coconut Hawaiians/local ( brown outside but white inside) site their Christian beliefs for grounds to dismiss the Hawaiian beliefs. Plz have respect.
My ohana and kupuna would never condone this project. Most Hawaiians of old like my kupuna were practical people. They would ask, why would you want to niele ( nosy, inquisitive) 55 million light years away? A place you never going to. What we should do is malama this earth. Dr. Coleman you niele. Plz fix this earth, the plastic, the pollution. The ocean is dying, my kupuna would say ho’opono this earth first.
I’m from a generation that went crazy to put a man on the moon, I’m 71 how did this benefit me? It’s just niele. Think of all the money wasted. I cannot digest even one light year. It’s NIELE.
V P 🙏🏽
Hahaha Oh unko. Exactly why we never gona transfer to those stars. Can't eat it, can't drink it, can't breathe on those stars. The kids like fly to the moon, go college n learn on the mainland.
VenaZ
You sound like you’re young and practical. Keep spreading the word. Our honua first.
🌺 unko
If you can't reasonably deduce just how beneficial the moon landings were...well theres not really any point trying to educate you. Little long in the tooth to be rewiring your brain. Oh look, thankfully another commenter posted links to some data,...in case you're up for the challenge.
@@venaz12009 Never going to TRAVEL to other star systems? You sure about that? No, you can't "breathe on those stars" ...you can't breathe on any star...you can however breathe on the planet they just discovered that's only 20 light years away. At speeds we can reach NOW, it would only take 2,000 years to reach. And propulsion tech gets better exponentially. So, you're incorrect. We ARE going. It's all a matter of money and time. (And a few brave souls...youd think at LEAST a few Hawaiians would be interested in the possibility...I mean ...weren't your ancestors brave enough to travel the VAST oceans?)
To @PBSHawaiiorg: The moderator is BIASED. Thumbs DOWN.
Yeah, facts and logical information not based on superstition and bullshit, can be such a burden, eh?
Value Mauna Kea.
What is it worth 7 generations into the future?
In pristine state.
No telescopes.
Sacred.
Why stop there?
Value Hawaii.
What is it worth 7 generations into the future?
A unified, sovereign kingdom.
A sacred nation.
All beings and the land; honored, valued, fully expressed.
What’s the current value of Hawaii?
It is undervalued, in its current state.
Mint that current valuation, at today’s value.
Come together as the people of the great Hawaiian Kingdom.
Form Agreements for cooperation and collaboration.
Master plan forward how we will get from where we are at, to the Highest Blueprint in the coming years.
Vote and delegate leaders, committees, levels of leadership in all areas of Hawaii, and all departments of the new / sacred nation.
Assign salaries in this new currency that is created.
Issue a list of tasks of all the things that all people of Hawaii are encouraged to do, to invest in bringing Hawaii towards its Highest Blueprint.
All these monies, that all Hawaiians will be holding, by staking in Hawaii, will go up in value, on an infinite scale, as Hawaii nears its full future valuation.
All I know is if we can't keep our homestead lands in pristine shape..thats part of the problem... We have to point at our own people for not walking the walk too... We can't be hypocritical and blame others all the time
Oahu Girl Friday
There’s no reason to blame “our own people”..
This healing process has been in progress, since trauma was inflicted upon these perfect beings.
In fact, the greatest shift you will see, will be in this lifetime.. as all locals go into deeper and deeper healing, together.
No we should always look at ourselves and our people... Constantly pointing gets our people no where... We are not victims we are empowered natives... And what happens from this point is in our hands and how we are accountable.. To constantly blame is not our way and should not be our way now. Lets look at how we care for our aina and homestead... Smh
Oahu Girl Friday
100% agree.
That little baby Mountain is not even high.
Mountains should wait until they're adults to get high...
why cant they just build the dang thing over an existing one. If what they got already ain't good enough, what would it hurt to put it out of commission to be replaced? I mean it ain't like they gonna use it much later if they got a better one. Seems a waste of Native's time to get in a hot mess over such trivial non-sense. Space scopes are good enough anyway, I just don't get it.
+bandrukesucks Easier said than done.
Yeah. Much easier said than done.
They addressed that question in the interview..
Why does John Osorio speak of ceded lands when he was on Keanu Sai's PhD panel? (30:15)
What?
What?
Right on MrOsorio in time and w heart. The Hawaiians if they want more education than fine. Keeping the Respect of the culture more important that's educational.
MrCole is playing the Manipulation card. MONEY... thank U sista for saying money is not problem. It's the desecration of the Mountain.
And besides they haven't paid the market value from day one. $1.00 not going feed nobody.
And you're playing the ignorant, emotional, irrational card. One at a time, please.
So, you're donating to feed people then? Will I see you down at the shelter serving food? You start a go fund me for the homeless or impoverished? Didn't think so.
@@djstrongarmgmail wat u talking about. Its about the state (DHHL) leased that piece of land for $1.00. All the while desecrating the land. I WISH I WAS ON THE BIG ISLAND I WOULD BE CAMPING OUT W THE KUPUNA's. Serving them, taking care of the Elders. So watch urself buddy. The hawaiians nuha, w all the land WHY isnt DHHL NOT putting the People on the land. Again it's all about the KALA. Why DHHL don't have kala for the big island. Where is the kala/ rental lease goin from the mall in Panaewa? Why is it theres no report for the Hawaiians to look at, kala made from these leased propertt?
@@venaz12009 you seem to be communicating in some English hybrid of unknown origin...so I'll do my best with what you've given me to work with in that wildly incoherent, meandering menagerie of 20 different points that dont even come close to addressing any of the issues. #1 you aren't my buddy/pal/friend. #2 "I would be there" yeah, but you're not, so shut the fuck up. #3 "watch urself buddy" along with shutting the fuck up, you should sit the fuck down, also. Please, keep giving me reason to continue to call and write congress DAILY to have real leadership set in the islands, and stand up to coward, racist, superstitious BULLIES, pushing lies and a completely false narrative.
@@venaz12009 Final verdict by the courts and anyone that isn't a pure racist: there's no desecration. Protesters have done nothing but spread lies and conflate numerous issues. Protesters are breaking the law and soon will be subject to the consequences.
Question: was the Mauna sacred before or only after the Tahitians invaded, colonized, conquered, and displaced the existing population?
Ha keeps talking about oil! Stop depending on oil, that's all.
To Richard Ha. The Hawaiian culture is the piko of state's economy. PERIOD.
The thing will beam a giant green laser in the sky? Goodbye beautiful stars at night, hello neon kill the planet nightmare sky.
A telescope is a collector, it does not emit anything. I'm tired of hearing lies, if you're going to state your opposition is filthy liars then you need to be better than that.
They call it a laser guide star to calibrate before each viewing. Are you replying to me? Filthy liars?
You obviously have no idea what you're even talking about. What,...you think its going to be like that scene from Lord of the Rings, when the giant green evil light shoots out of the evil castle? 🤦♂️
I’m personally sick of this “woo woo”, “sacred”, “desecration” talk! All this religious, superstitious mumbo jumbo nonsense is bullshit! It’s one thing to have cultural practices that add to the character of life but it’s another to stand in the way of significant progress and scientific discoveries that can benefit all of humanity for centuries to come.
What would King Kalakaua do if he was alive?
He would slap their fuckin headz
So why do two Kanaka Maoli look like native Hawaiians and the other two look
Like haolie ?
Who are the two that look haole? Is it the two men on the left?
I never thought that people would hate a telescope. But OK, just move all the telescopes off there, and built the new on on La Palma. People who hate astronomy don't deserve it.
Garry Burgess
Choose: money and focus this earth or places 55 million miles away. Fix our oceans coral and ocean life are dying. Air pollution killing our people. Be practicle
Bring it to the Canaries.
irishmusico that I will support, I’m not against TMT, just want it built else where
Punaluu Heart. 1$ rent for the sacred Mauna with no hope for rectifying this? Cause for outrage on all levels. $1 million dollars yearly 'rent' (10 years from now) for a $1.5 billion dollar telescope? Seriously? Who knows what the future holds...everything is crazy on this planet. But know this, the soul of the Hawaiian people and the rest of the world protecters cannot be bought. Please let me know how I can help.
No.
no
It has been stopped!
It has been approved!
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha U Funny!
No