Nah, he'll breakout the IVA (Intelligent Vibration Analyzer) to make sure the noise and vibration are coming from the flat tire before throwing a tire on the car and not fixing the real problem.
Very helpful Video, great detail, stayed on subject and no unneccessary B.S ... how every mechanic should approach the situation. I always feel the need to diagnose my own vehicles because the mechanic shops always tends to fail. Thank you again !!
Thanks for the video. I've had clock issues with the CAN tranciever chip on various components over the years. Most cases, its just a cold solder joint. Thanks again.
used scope for the first time today checking engine cutting off. crank signal goes away. now have to check and see if its loosing power or ground. scopes have opened a whole new world for me at 64 thanks for sharing your knowledge hope soon can afford to get one of those units like you use i bought a snapon vantage legend which has 2 channels had to start somewhere
How much was the vantage legend? For what Snap-On charges, I'm sure there are lots of entry level scopes you could have gotten. A entry level Pico 2204A is in the low-mid $100 range.
@@killer2600 you are correct i got the legend for 2 reasons one was the guided componet testing and wiring diag for each sensor. i wanted the vantage pro but they are gone. lots of information and easy to work. and it had the 2 channel scope it also shows how to connect and color of wires for each sensor figured would make easy to learn scope. i am looking at the e-scope and the e-scan from tst or may get 4425a pico in the near future and the legend was 1700.00
Fantastic video. These radio units are very ubiquitous among GM models built around this time and are readily available online from salvage yards. Cheapest solution by far. Try and get one that was made outside the 2013 model year, that seems to be the batch that has this problem.
Great video. The issue with mechanics using a scope is, where do they learn how to read a scope. Today you have to be a television repair man to work on cars.
*Check main radio unit cooling fan operation... In my situation, the can bus noise was coming from the l5962 overheating and sharply shutting down due to bad fan driver & poor thermal transfer.
The audio output ic can be the issue of this problem? Maybe that is the short what is causing the spikes on the ground signal, and obviously the radio it turns off because of that
Does the radio have two way CAN bus communications with the control head? Or is the control head the only one on the bus? How do you tell which one is causing the drop out?
I was going to ask the same question. I think lots of steps were missed in this video. The CAN bus used between the radio and the controls is a CAN CGI bus. Its similar to the high speed CAN bus, but its sending a lot of control and graphical information of over its bus. Is the bus being pulled low or just dropping out? Is the radio or the controls doing this? The HVAC control module communicates with the HVAC controls directly over the network 9 LIN bus. He did say the HVAC system stopped working when the radio died. There is a also a center stack reset signal that wasn't covered. As for the ground noise there are a lot of things tied into G202 that could be turning on and shutting off changing the load on the ground. There are a few modules that use G202 that are on the Low speed GMLAN. The radio set a Low speed CAN bus fault U0020. The radio communicates with the modules such as the HVAC and BCM over the low speed GMLAN. The radio doesn't communicate with control panel over the low speed GMLAN. Why was a full system scan not done to see if U codes are stored in other modules? Not only do you need to be a network engineer to work on this stuff, you need to be a systems engineer to understand the logic how these busses function. Whos to say the radio and the HVAC shut down because there is a GM low speed LAN issue?
I have a 2013 camaro and the radio and the air conditioner doing the same things. I noticed this is a common problem with these vehicles. Not car savvy but did anyone figure out what's the issue. I don't want to be spending money on someone to fix the problem that don't know what they are dealing with and just getting money out of me for the same results. So if you guys can help and let me know what is actually causing this problem I would greatly appreciate it. Don't know why they haven't did a recall on this because from what I hear this is a common issue. Thanks
@@angieangle9760 Had the same issue. Removing the radio box fixed the panel flickering issue, HVAC works just fine too. But the display is blank. Can I short the green line to the ground to wake it up?
Bernie I believe the radio is pulling the communication line down.The voltage spikes on the ground side coincides with high amperage positive voltage loads from the internal radio amplifier when failure occurs.The modules were communicating for a lengthy time with no radio sound output to the point of forced ignition key re-cycle.The scope data was showing high loads from the stereo amplifier at time of failure.I personally would of spent more time on this diag
Great train of thought but now add in the radio station and hvac settings changing when the failure occurs. Also add in information, not given in the video, that the control head communicates with the hvac system on a different communication line (that the radio is not a part of).
I second that.. The extra time spent led to discovering l5962 Linear Voltage Reg not properly cooled leading to thermal shutdown. Checked temps with Flir, pushed it over the "edge" with a soldering tip on the outer case after noticing pattern in hot weather. maybe firmware flash in S29AL016J is garbagio. too much pwm signal or just a bad cooling fan motor/driver & poor thermal transfer. Head unit is just a bystander in all this. i believe the thump in the audio/ ac settings flashing intermittently is due to the ubrupt nature of the thermal overload shutdown on a component that regulates voltage for the whole a/c, radio bus.
I'm extremely curious to know how something is pulling (spiking) the ground up, despite a good bypass ground wire being in place. That power line has a lot of hash on it too. It didn't seem to start as soon as the engine started, but after a few seconds it sorta ramped up. Looked like it might coincide with ignition pulses though. I'm a little hesitant to pin this on the control head so quick. Seems like high voltage jumping from a plug wire could be causing a microprocessor reset in the control head.
High voltage jumping from a plug wire isn't that intermittent. The hash on the power feed is likely the charging system. The ground spikes could be anything, the extra ground connection just ensures that the issue isn't a failing/bad ground. Because the ground spikes still occur the issue isn't a bad ground.
Hi Bernie, I live in Houston, TX near the Johnson Space Center and have this problem with my 2014 Camaro. Can you recommend a local shop to fix this problem? Thanks, Joe
I'm new to Bernie and his channel. If I may ask, is the ATS scope a product that Bernie created? The oscilloscope software seems to have an amazing number of viewing options/settings. I'm just curious if Bernie created this product or if he's a representative of ATS? The knowledge he shares is amazing. Thank you, Bernie!
Yes , he and another smart guy created advanced automotive equipment. Their LapTop Aftermarket Scan Tool can diagnose Catalytic Converters just by driving the vehicle around the Block. Big Dogs Neighborhood Albuquerque, New Mexico www.automotivetestsolutions.com
The grey box behind the panel is the radio unit. I've had the same issue. I replaced the panel with no luck, then I replaced that grey box behind the panel and it worked out.YEL/TAN serial wires are not actually a CAN bus, it's a local stack-bus related to radio-panel communication. Understanding what unit is controlling the line is essential to diagnose the problem. Need to unplug a unit and see what unit actually talks to the line.
Based on your preliminary show and tell, I'm not convinced it's a radio problem. Do you have a before and after repair to show and tell? I don't think a new radio would fix this, looks more like bus noise to me and a BCM problem.
Same issue with my 2013. Delay in the radio startup and everything. It's definitely an internal failure somewhere in the radio unit. Lots of CAN signals pass through there so it really messes a lot of different systems up when it fails, and can be hard to track down. Replacing mine with a salvage yard unit and reflashing/ unlocking it solved the problem. No issues a year later. Dealer tried on and off over the course of a month unsuccessfully to diagnose and wanted $600 just for the radio unit. I told them to pound sand and quit throwing fixes at it in search of the problem. I could do that myself, so I did, for way less money. Replacing the radio unit was the first thing I tried. Luckily it worked.
@@doug960: Normally in the service and diagnostic and repair industry, we have to be able to prove our work! Funny how a medical doctor runs on guesswork alone! I'm not sure replacing the head unit fixed your problem, or it was a wiggle in a wiring harness that ultimately got the job done.!? I'm glad for you either way, but I'm pretty hard core about proving the work! If there ain't no proof then there ain't no bill. I need to eat and customers need something to see! I have always played the fair game, not the long con. I need proof! You need proof! We all need proof this is the problem, then again more proof this is what fixed it! I'm just a guy sticking his nose where it does not yet belong,,,,, it's my disease to bare, I can't bite tongue. Cheers man 🍻.
@@Finite-Tuning I have really lost faith in all my local dealers. They couldn't even begin to explain where they thought the problem was, let alone why. I paid $120 for the initial diagnosis and reflash and they essentially told me unless I wanted to pay them to put in a new radio unit without being sure that was the problem, they couldn't help me when I came back twice after that first diagnostic. There weren't any independent shops around with the know-how to help either, at least not that I could find. I'm not an electrical engineer or a network engineer, but I understand that modern cars are rolling data-centers now. Everything talks to everything through multiplexed channels, and even if you do understand how it all works, you still need the wiring diagrams, which I haven't yet learned how to decipher. I only know enough to swap parts... so about as much as my dealer 😉 I don't think this was a fluke. I had the dead radio and digital display in and out several times to take them apart and check the PCBs for obvious signs of failure, heat damage, liquid/ condensation damage, iffy solder joints, etc. and the problem never changed. The second the new unit was in, BAM no more dropouts anywhere. It was the middle of summer and not having A/C half the time really motivated me to get it fixed. For $40 on the salvage unit I was willing to try. No more problems once it was programmed for my VIN, which cost $100. My dad has a 2013 Camaro built about 2 weeks before mine was and he had the exact same problem about 6 months ago. The fix was exactly the same too. Two nearly identical cars, same problem, same fix. I think there was a manufacturing defect in a certain batch of these radios made in 2012 for model year 2013 cars. I hear ya. I also like to know exactly why I'm replacing something, to the exact on-board component or ground strap, especially if I'm paying someone to do the work. But in this case, I got lucky.
@@doug960 : Good for you man, and I mean that sincerely! You have beaten the odds and won. Because it's not really a trade secret (as if there were any) I'll tell you here where to look up: "Mitchell on demand" and "Alldatadiy". The best manuals you could hope to know are somewhere between the 2 of these above. 'Mitchell' or 'Alldata', who does it better? Well I know which one I go to every-time, but you must chose for yourself. I told you where to look, the rest is up to you bud. Cheers 🍻.
We replaced both back blinkers and they started working properly after that. The dash electrical issue however was the radio. Took to dealership and spent way too much but it's all working properly now.
Not always. That "fix" didn't work for my 2013. Also, just pull the pin out of the back of the connector if that's the route you want to go. That way you can just put the pin back if that doesn't solve your problem. Nobody was able to actually diagnose mine. I was lucky and guessed that the radio unit itself was bad, and I was right. Wish this video had been around about a year ago. I ended up replacing mine with a radio unit from a salvage yard (Chevy Cruze, I think. P/N was the same) and having it reflashed by the dealer. $140 total. No issues since.
My dad has a 2013 Camaro 1ls exactly like mine built one week apart. Same problem, same fix. I'm very confident if you replace that unit with a salvage unit it will solve your problem. Keep your receipt so the dealer or whoever reflashes it has proof your part isn't stolen, just in case. The dealer who tried to diagnose mine refused to reflash, but they are just an awful dealer. I had to go to a GMC dealer down the street for that service.
Customer- I think my tyre is flat
Bernie Thompson- let me get my oscilloscope
Nah, he'll breakout the IVA (Intelligent Vibration Analyzer) to make sure the noise and vibration are coming from the flat tire before throwing a tire on the car and not fixing the real problem.
Your knowledge is impressive. As someone who simply loves to learn everything about something, I appreciate your vids
Love how Bernie always illustrates the importance of using a scope. Great video as always!
Love the scope capture background music 😁🎵👍
Isn't Bernie the boss!
He so professionally states that "I now have control of the radio" then immediately turns it down. classic
Very helpful Video, great detail, stayed on subject and no unneccessary B.S ... how every mechanic should approach the situation. I always feel the need to diagnose my own vehicles because the mechanic shops always tends to fail. Thank you again !!
Free education from the best teachers ! Thanks !
Thanks for the video. I've had clock issues with the CAN tranciever chip on various components over the years. Most cases, its just a cold solder joint. Thanks again.
Yes, more and more complicated and expensive. Thanks Bernie.
used scope for the first time today checking engine cutting off. crank signal goes away. now have to check and see if its loosing power or ground. scopes have opened a whole new world for me at 64 thanks for sharing your knowledge hope soon can afford to get one of those units like you use i bought a snapon vantage legend which has 2 channels had to start somewhere
How much was the vantage legend? For what Snap-On charges, I'm sure there are lots of entry level scopes you could have gotten. A entry level Pico 2204A is in the low-mid $100 range.
@@killer2600 you are correct i got the legend for 2 reasons one was the guided componet testing and wiring diag for each sensor. i wanted the vantage pro but they are gone. lots of information and easy to work. and it had the 2 channel scope it also shows how to connect and color of wires for each sensor figured would make easy to learn scope. i am looking at the e-scope and the e-scan from tst or may get 4425a pico in the near future and the legend was 1700.00
Fantastic video.
These radio units are very ubiquitous among GM models built around this time and are readily available online from salvage yards. Cheapest solution by far. Try and get one that was made outside the 2013 model year, that seems to be the batch that has this problem.
What year do you recommend
@@Zatos_Garage_build Whatever you can find with the same p/n. Mine was out of a 2012 Cruze.
Do you know if this will also fix the AC unit. Asking because I have the 2013 model and having the same issue. Radio and AC unit cutting off and on.
@@angieangle9760hey did you find a solution? Dealing with same issue
@@panhandleliquors7894I’m looking for a solution
You're an awesome mechanic! Thanks so much!
Great video Bernie and great job.learned lot from you thanks.
You the best teacher
Great video. The issue with mechanics using a scope is, where do they learn how to read a scope. Today you have to be a television repair man to work on cars.
Great video ! Finally a solid answer, so all I need is a different head unit for my 2014 ?
Try disconnecting the battery for five minutes to reset the BCM. It worked for me and it’s easy.
So many vids of replacements, wire cutting, etc., when simply resetting the BCM cures it.
I disconnected the battery for 10 minutes. Worked for 5 minutes!! POS radios!!!
*Check main radio unit cooling fan operation... In my situation, the can bus noise was coming from the l5962 overheating and sharply shutting down due to bad fan driver & poor thermal transfer.
The audio output ic can be the issue of this problem? Maybe that is the short what is causing the spikes on the ground signal, and obviously the radio it turns off because of that
There is a possibility, however its been a few months of problem free driving after i heatsinked the l5962 voltage regulator.
Thanks for sharing Bernie... Cheers.
Does the radio have two way CAN bus communications with the control head? Or is the control head the only one on the bus? How do you tell which one is causing the drop out?
I was going to ask the same question. I think lots of steps were missed in this video. The CAN bus used between the radio and the controls is a CAN CGI bus. Its similar to the high speed CAN bus, but its sending a lot of control and graphical information of over its bus. Is the bus being pulled low or just dropping out? Is the radio or the controls doing this? The HVAC control module communicates with the HVAC controls directly over the network 9 LIN bus. He did say the HVAC system stopped working when the radio died.
There is a also a center stack reset signal that wasn't covered. As for the ground noise there are a lot of things tied into G202 that could be turning on and shutting off changing the load on the ground. There are a few modules that use G202 that are on the Low speed GMLAN. The radio set a Low speed CAN bus fault U0020. The radio communicates with the modules such as the HVAC and BCM over the low speed GMLAN. The radio doesn't communicate with control panel over the low speed GMLAN. Why was a full system scan not done to see if U codes are stored in other modules? Not only do you need to be a network engineer to work on this stuff, you need to be a systems engineer to understand the logic how these busses function. Whos to say the radio and the HVAC shut down because there is a GM low speed LAN issue?
@@Discretesignals the scope data lead me towards the radio amplifier area
I have a 2013 camaro and the radio and the air conditioner doing the same things. I noticed this is a common problem with these vehicles. Not car savvy but did anyone figure out what's the issue. I don't want to be spending money on someone to fix the problem that don't know what they are dealing with and just getting money out of me for the same results. So if you guys can help and let me know what is actually causing this problem I would greatly appreciate it. Don't know why they haven't did a recall on this because from what I hear this is a common issue. Thanks
@@angieangle9760 Had the same issue. Removing the radio box fixed the panel flickering issue, HVAC works just fine too. But the display is blank. Can I short the green line to the ground to wake it up?
Bernie I believe the radio is pulling the communication line down.The voltage spikes on the ground side coincides with high amperage positive voltage loads from the internal radio amplifier when failure occurs.The modules were communicating for a lengthy time with no radio sound output to the point of forced ignition key re-cycle.The scope data was showing high loads from the stereo amplifier at time of failure.I personally would of spent more time on this diag
Great train of thought but now add in the radio station and hvac settings changing when the failure occurs. Also add in information, not given in the video, that the control head communicates with the hvac system on a different communication line (that the radio is not a part of).
I second that.. The extra time spent led to discovering l5962 Linear Voltage Reg not properly cooled leading to thermal shutdown. Checked temps with Flir, pushed it over the "edge" with a soldering tip on the outer case after noticing pattern in hot weather. maybe firmware flash in S29AL016J is garbagio. too much pwm signal or just a bad cooling fan motor/driver & poor thermal transfer. Head unit is just a bystander in all this. i believe the thump in the audio/ ac settings flashing intermittently is due to the ubrupt nature of the thermal overload shutdown on a component that regulates voltage for the whole a/c, radio bus.
Can a shorted antenna taking out the can Network ??
Interesting radio operation. Does Service Information give the steps of operation regarding the radio startup?
Good diagnostics!
Good video,but where is the fix
I'm extremely curious to know how something is pulling (spiking) the ground up, despite a good bypass ground wire being in place. That power line has a lot of hash on it too. It didn't seem to start as soon as the engine started, but after a few seconds it sorta ramped up. Looked like it might coincide with ignition pulses though. I'm a little hesitant to pin this on the control head so quick. Seems like high voltage jumping from a plug wire could be causing a microprocessor reset in the control head.
High voltage jumping from a plug wire isn't that intermittent. The hash on the power feed is likely the charging system. The ground spikes could be anything, the extra ground connection just ensures that the issue isn't a failing/bad ground. Because the ground spikes still occur the issue isn't a bad ground.
Bernie be bumping that rap music lol
Hi Bernie, I live in Houston, TX near the Johnson Space Center and have this problem with my 2014 Camaro. Can you recommend a local shop to fix this problem? Thanks, Joe
Is there anyway you can put the wiring in the link please
I'm new to Bernie and his channel. If I may ask, is the ATS scope a product that Bernie created? The oscilloscope software seems to have an amazing number of viewing options/settings. I'm just curious if Bernie created this product or if he's a representative of ATS?
The knowledge he shares is amazing. Thank you, Bernie!
Yes , he and another smart guy created advanced automotive equipment. Their LapTop Aftermarket Scan Tool can diagnose Catalytic Converters just by driving the vehicle around the Block.
Big Dogs Neighborhood
Albuquerque, New Mexico
www.automotivetestsolutions.com
@@charlesbarkwell7693 Thank you, Charles!
quick observation - does shitty taste in music equate to CAN failures?
Camaro"
Cameros come with the manuel transmission lol
By radio control head does he mean the control panel itself or does he mean the gray control unit behind the pannel
The grey box behind the panel is the radio unit. I've had the same issue. I replaced the panel with no luck, then I replaced that grey box behind the panel and it worked out.YEL/TAN serial wires are not actually a CAN bus, it's a local stack-bus related to radio-panel communication. Understanding what unit is controlling the line is essential to diagnose the problem. Need to unplug a unit and see what unit actually talks to the line.
one would think that seperating the can and checking to see which side stops trying to communicate would be a better indication.
Way to use scope Bernie thanks
Anyone know if replacing/upgrading the radio with an aftermarket unit fix the problem?
but yet the service centers for GM act like they have no clue about this problem.
Awesome
Based on your preliminary show and tell, I'm not convinced it's a radio problem. Do you have a before and after repair to show and tell? I don't think a new radio would fix this, looks more like bus noise to me and a BCM problem.
It wasn't a radio problem, he made the call on the control head.
Same issue with my 2013. Delay in the radio startup and everything. It's definitely an internal failure somewhere in the radio unit. Lots of CAN signals pass through there so it really messes a lot of different systems up when it fails, and can be hard to track down. Replacing mine with a salvage yard unit and reflashing/ unlocking it solved the problem. No issues a year later.
Dealer tried on and off over the course of a month unsuccessfully to diagnose and wanted $600 just for the radio unit. I told them to pound sand and quit throwing fixes at it in search of the problem. I could do that myself, so I did, for way less money. Replacing the radio unit was the first thing I tried. Luckily it worked.
@@doug960:
Normally in the service and diagnostic and repair industry, we have to be able to prove our work! Funny how a medical doctor runs on guesswork alone! I'm not sure replacing the head unit fixed your problem, or it was a wiggle in a wiring harness that ultimately got the job done.!? I'm glad for you either way, but I'm pretty hard core about proving the work!
If there ain't no proof then there ain't no bill. I need to eat and customers need something to see! I have always played the fair game, not the long con. I need proof! You need proof! We all need proof this is the problem, then again more proof this is what fixed it! I'm just a guy sticking his nose where it does not yet belong,,,,, it's my disease to bare, I can't bite tongue.
Cheers man 🍻.
@@Finite-Tuning I have really lost faith in all my local dealers. They couldn't even begin to explain where they thought the problem was, let alone why. I paid $120 for the initial diagnosis and reflash and they essentially told me unless I wanted to pay them to put in a new radio unit without being sure that was the problem, they couldn't help me when I came back twice after that first diagnostic. There weren't any independent shops around with the know-how to help either, at least not that I could find.
I'm not an electrical engineer or a network engineer, but I understand that modern cars are rolling data-centers now. Everything talks to everything through multiplexed channels, and even if you do understand how it all works, you still need the wiring diagrams, which I haven't yet learned how to decipher. I only know enough to swap parts... so about as much as my dealer 😉
I don't think this was a fluke. I had the dead radio and digital display in and out several times to take them apart and check the PCBs for obvious signs of failure, heat damage, liquid/ condensation damage, iffy solder joints, etc. and the problem never changed.
The second the new unit was in, BAM no more dropouts anywhere. It was the middle of summer and not having A/C half the time really motivated me to get it fixed. For $40 on the salvage unit I was willing to try. No more problems once it was programmed for my VIN, which cost $100.
My dad has a 2013 Camaro built about 2 weeks before mine was and he had the exact same problem about 6 months ago. The fix was exactly the same too. Two nearly identical cars, same problem, same fix. I think there was a manufacturing defect in a certain batch of these radios made in 2012 for model year 2013 cars.
I hear ya. I also like to know exactly why I'm replacing something, to the exact on-board component or ground strap, especially if I'm paying someone to do the work. But in this case, I got lucky.
@@doug960 :
Good for you man, and I mean that sincerely! You have beaten the odds and won. Because it's not really a trade secret (as if there were any) I'll tell you here where to look up: "Mitchell on demand" and "Alldatadiy". The best manuals you could hope to know are somewhere between the 2 of these above.
'Mitchell' or 'Alldata', who does it better? Well I know which one I go to every-time, but you must chose for yourself. I told you where to look, the rest is up to you bud.
Cheers 🍻.
We have this problem right now. My question is would this cause blinkers and other things to start to go haywire also?
I have the same problem is you. every find anything out. Having the same issue
We replaced both back blinkers and they started working properly after that. The dash electrical issue however was the radio. Took to dealership and spent way too much but it's all working properly now.
@@noellanmcdaniel9055 mine is doing the same thing I think just buying a new radio will work as well ...
Tear them up Bernie, tear them up!
If you get a new aftermarket stereo, will it fix the problem?? I’m about to spend $600 on one but not sure if it’ll fix the problem
Me too! Did you get it resolved?
@@troublet08 replace the radio.
just cut the white wire from the control head plug and be done with it. Fixed at home for free!
search you tube youll find it.
I did that and it worked for about 2 weeks, now it's back to shutting off.
If you cut the white wire on the harness in back of the radio it never fails again.. sounds crazy but it works
Not always. That "fix" didn't work for my 2013.
Also, just pull the pin out of the back of the connector if that's the route you want to go. That way you can just put the pin back if that doesn't solve your problem.
Nobody was able to actually diagnose mine. I was lucky and guessed that the radio unit itself was bad, and I was right. Wish this video had been around about a year ago. I ended up replacing mine with a radio unit from a salvage yard (Chevy Cruze, I think. P/N was the same) and having it reflashed by the dealer. $140 total. No issues since.
@@doug960 when you say radio unit do you mean the radio control panel or the actual head unit (gray box behind the panel)
@@Zatos_Garage_build The gray box. P/N 22923803. Still working to this day. I see a couple on eBay for around $80 now.
@@doug960 thank you! I’ve been trying to figure out what’s wrong with it since 2016 and the dealership had no idea.
My dad has a 2013 Camaro 1ls exactly like mine built one week apart. Same problem, same fix. I'm very confident if you replace that unit with a salvage unit it will solve your problem.
Keep your receipt so the dealer or whoever reflashes it has proof your part isn't stolen, just in case. The dealer who tried to diagnose mine refused to reflash, but they are just an awful dealer. I had to go to a GMC dealer down the street for that service.
Seems like power surges makes mine worse
Camaro