"She chose her husband by his feet alone" "..... I'm sure that excites some corners of the internet" Broooo that was just so abrupt and nonchalant it totally caught me off guard 😂😂😂
Though ripe with rich commentary, my favorite part of the video is "I'll eat my hat if you can make me think otherwise," followed closely by "by his feet alone, which surely excites some corners of the internet."
This reminds me of European royal families. The families are so intermixed that you can talk about them as on big family, but you can also talk about them as different entities with different statues.
I'm so glad to have came across this youtube channel, Dr. Crawford is a reliable source of information regarding Norse history, language, and culture without being spoiled by any sorta political agenda, I've been a fan for only two months but I'm already excited for his translated book of the Volsung Sagas, keep up the good work Dr. Crawford, I'm excited to learn more.
If you can give me a true answer, if not please don't answer. What do you think about "Runes" can they really help us. And if they can, what is the realest source of information that you got it from?
My favourite part of this video? When he casually says that he will have more works published soon :-D I just finished the Volsung and Ragnar sagas (which I read just after finishing his Poetic Edda translation). I LOVE this mans work! As a Norwegian I have in my possession quite a few translations of the Poetic Edda as well as a few sagas, but they’re all translated into a very archaic form of Norwegian which makes it difficult to read. It was a whole new experience reading through his translations :-) I can not recommend people checking out his books enough.
"Rudy's a great guy". Hearing Crawford talk about Simek is like listening to Iron Man talk about Wolverine. Glad to be alive and so heavily invested in this field in a time of such titans.
Tiny correction re: pronunciation - The 's' in the Sanskrit 'asura' is a regular s, as an Aesir, not an 'sh' sound (so it would be transliterated asura rather than aśura). PS: You're certainly correct that asura is nowadays seen as meaning a class of demonic beings. This association comes from later (i.e. Epic and Puranik) Hindu mythology. In the Rigveda where the term first appears, the term seems more ambiguous, as some divine and some demonic beings are both called asuras.
Hello Professor! Former CU graduate student here. I absolutely loved this video. Just wanted to give some Vedic parallels to the Norse story. The Vanirs are called Panis in vedas and they bargain with the messenger of the king of Gods. The messenger isn't flying as she is a female dog. But there is a hint of exchange just like the Norse story. The aesirs are called asuras in Vedic form and they are not necessarily demons in old versions. Even the king of gods, Indra is called an asura. I think the word means powerful. Secondly, the asuras do follow non incest rule. In 10th Mandala of Rgveda, there is a Yama-Yami Samvad which outlines what practice is to be abhorred and incest is listed as one. All in all, a great video. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
Simek is my professor at university, he is amazing. We actually talked about this exact controversy. Meaning whether there are different families of gods or not. I really enjoy watching your videos, and I think it's great to get a second, also well-educated opinion on matters like these. Thank you.
Thank you for being as accurate as you can be, making the distinction between what’s thought, what’s believed and what’s known, some content creators are not that accurate when they say things that they are obviously just copping onto their channels, one I can think of is northwoods kindred, they don’t make the distinction between things that are definitely understood and myths, I appreciate accurate information.
You have explained to us, in the past, that the Jotunn should be regarded, not as typical giants but as a separate tribe or clan similar to the Aesir, so why not regard the Vanir in the same way?
One can see parallels between the Jotunn and the Greek titans. Powerful beings predating the gods or arising around the same time. They represent the harsh forces of nature that the Norse people would have to struggle with and overcome. The frost was a deadly force. So the struggles between the aesir and the jotunn can be seen as representative of the struggles between the people and the dangerous tricky and treacherous environment. There were also the fire jotunn though not often discussed other than Surt bringing the end to the world at the end of ragnarok, fire too was a dangerous force of course.
The Jotunn can be compared to the Titans but also to the hindu Asura demon clan, although the word Asura is a cognate of Aesir. Just an observation and this is not my field of research.
Btw, Dr Crawford, it's such a credit to your scholarship and your commitment to presenting an unbiased picture to us that you quite compellingly present the arguments for the Vanir not being a separate class of gods, at least at one time :)
I love these Doc-----absolutely fabulous---ALL of THEM & I think the detail is excellent. You can NEVER have TOO MUCH detail!! Keep up the good work doc----TOPMAN
Any good sources on place-names around Uppsala being more Vanir-focused while places further out are less so? My home region in Sweden seems to have a pretty even mix of Vanir and Aesir place-names, but also a couple which just have Ås- as elements and no specific gods mentioned. I'd be interested to read how these places compare to the the rest of the Swedish onomasticon.
Jag antar att du är svensk? Många platser i Götaland bär ju namn efter Oden. Troligtvis var Allfadern central just i dessa områden. Kommer man närmare Uppsala verkar det som att Frej stod i centrum.
I have a friend whos studied archeology. According to him the origins forVanir and the Æsir can be traced back to a warlike people migrating into Scandinavia back in the stoneage. Those people had war axes made of stone, and made war on the people living in Scandinavia and settled there. The theory is that the merging of these cultures and their religions (gods of fertility and harvest and gods of war), are the basis for alot of Norse Mythology and the war between the Æsir and Vanir. I.e a possible reason for the two different families in Norse mythology, is that early migration and conflict between two distinct cultures. With Frøy and Frøya being remnants and developed representations of the peaceful original inhabitants, whilst the victorious Æsir gods (Odin, Thor Tyr etc) are developed representations of the "Stoneaxe" people. That would also explain why there are more Æsir than Vanir. Whilst this cannot be proven it is an interesting theory with some merit. And it would make sense that tales from this conflict and the people in it would be retold and the people in them and their deeds be developed into mythology through many centuries.
As aurora2097 wrote, it is basically a continuation of Snorri's euhemerizing theory about the gods. If the vanir were originally the gods of the early European farmers who lived in Scandinavia before the Indoeuropean "battleaxe" people came, then why do they all have Germanic names? It is very normal for Indoeuropean mythologies to have several different groups of gods, why should it not be the same for Norse mythology?
Doesn't make any sense that Vanir would be there originally, because if you look at Scandinavia, it's not really a farmers' dream... Another indication is that in Thracian culture, the boar played a significant role. And what remains of Dacian and Thracian language is fairly similar to Baltic languages. Also the place names of Dacian origins have many similarities to Latvian place-names.
Could the naming confusion not be the result of kennings? For example, we know that in Old Norse poetry, a bird's name can be substituted with the name of any other bird to make the meter work, but that does not lead us to believe they did not recognize the difference between a raven and an eagle. It seems entirely within reason that in such a tradition, it would be acceptable to use the terms "aesir" and "vanir" to refer to the gods as a whole as a poetic device, even if the terms weren't normally interchangeable.
I've read the book "Gods and myths of Northern Europe" by H.R. Ellis Davidson and she believes that the Vanir are the gods of various fertility cults, possibly older than the later cults of the Aesir which developed around the migration era. Perhaps they were seen originally as the same group of Gods but later when the "Aesir" gods began to be more popular, as time moved on people started distinguishing the two "eras" by separating them into two groups of gods.
This also align well with the Jotun being "lesser" still. Jotun are often tied to a landscape feature, in some instances they ARE the landscape features. There's signs that the Nordic myths might be a fusion of three systems of faith, with the Jotun being animistic spirits, the Vanir being more generic nature/fertility deities, these finally being supplanted in rank by a final incursion of gods, those being the Aesir.
I’m familiar with that theory too, I think there’s a great deal of interest that can be taken into investigating the origins of these mythic figures and legends
@@Kasarii This brings to mind the different classes of gods in Greco-Roman mythology as well: the Olympian gods, who have the most stories about them being the "Æsir", then fertility deities like Ceres/Demeter being the "Vanir", and finally landscape deities (e.g. rivers, nymphs, etc) being the "Jotun". The parallels aren't exact, of course -- Poseidon is an Olympian deity while Njörðr is a Vanir -- but they are broadly there. Which causes one to ask: Is this because there was some sort of structural system creating a mythic hierarchy? or just a coincidence? or maybe inferring patterns where there are none?
Dang. What doesn't Simek write on? The guy's everywhere. He published a paper on the pre-Christian pillar cults of Syria that was indispensable. Incredible range, that guy. Also completely jealous that you appear to be on a first name basis with em. Rudy. heh. Thanks for the great videos.
Thanks again for a great video. Snorri‘s interpretation of the Gods as ancestors from an area around the Don river (who were deified by later generations) has an intriguing connection to the putative place in which Proto-Indo-European was spoken about 5,000 years ago. In “The Horse, the Wheel and Language,” David Anthony presents a wealth of evidence that this place was the Ponto-Caspian steppe, to the west of the Don. Anthony argues that the hunter-gatherers who preceded the PIE speakers in Europe adopted and made their own daughter languages from PIE b/c they adopted the useful stock-herding techniques of the PIE speakers, through trade alliances and intermarriage.
What? The people of Europe before the Yamnaya (the most probable PIE speakers) were not hunter-gatherers in the vast majority of cases, but farmers. Many of Basque-related stock. Also we know from DNA that PIE mainly spread via migration (specifically male migration, it seems like), not cultural influence. At least not in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe. Westernmost Europe seems to have been a more slow process of intermarrying and cultural adoption however, with Yamnaya genes slowly taking over in Westernmost Europe over generations, the Basque being the only pocket left to this day.
@@Osvath97 A study done in Norway ca 2014-2015 about Sami people DNA showed some surprising results, ca 80% of the women(in north norway)had WHG DNA, whilst the male had mostly(ca 70%) had EHG DNA, and then later they got mixed with the proto germanic tribes, and ca 1000 BCE the Uralic tribes we call the Sami came. So The Sami are a perfect example to show that genalogy is a big mix of genes from several cultures.
I'm floating the idea that the Vanir were more related to Shinto Kami than to 'Gods' per se, and it's not unheard of for powerful spirits to become elevated to a higher level deity (such as Yaweh taking his place among the Elohim), as were Njordr, Kvasir, Freyja and Freyr. Just putting it out there :)
This will strike you as odd perhaps, but as one who practices mysticism I'm glad to see someone who approaches the mythos from a factual perspective. Too often I spend hours of research trying to sort the ideas, ideals, and methods of someone who is at least no more well versed in the mystical approach than I am to separate what we know of the Norse - and thereby what I can incorporate into my own methods - from what they want me to believe is the way of things. This applies to both culture and mythology. I have found more things created by man and claimed ancient than I have things ancient that are claimed to be modern. It is refreshing to see someone who has then a passion for the history. While I know you may not believe that we who do practice a modern variation of these ways would respect what you do, I assure you we do. For in coming from this in a purely factual way you allow us to say with some degree of certainty what was in our myths and then say "I do this as it is inspired by this" with honesty. Further we can then also say honestly "this is modern, purely and invention, but I have found it of use in my practices" and not make ourselves to be a fool for claiming more than what is when pushed to evidences. So you have my respect and thanks, as well as those like me who seek to understand what was as we embark on a system of belief. In a previous video you made comment of how you didn't feel it was your place to approve or disapprove of someones beliefs and that too was greatly welcome sir. If more scholars approached this with honesty and directness as you do I feel the recreation religions would have much less infighting, and much more unity in finding ways that worked to bring harmony and happiness to their practitioners.
Well well well... Never though I'd know something Dr. Crawford didn't :p On the pronunciation of 'Uppsala' in Swedish. The emphasis is indeed on the first syllable (like in Icelandic) but there is a very strong secondary emphasis on the second syllable, characteristic of the Swedish language. In so-called 'two-peaked' dialects this is dubbed the grave accent (or double tone). In a word with this double tone, like Uppsala, the second syllable starts higher in tone than the where the last syllable ended, and this phenomena is why Swedish is classified as being an (albeit simple) tonal language. A Chinese speaker once told me that the grave accent sounded to them like two falling tones in a row. A grammar book once described it to me as being similar to the difference in English between the 'White House' (where the president lives) and simply a 'white house' (just any ol' house that is white), where 'White House' corresponds to the acute accent and 'white house' to the grave accent. It should be noted that not all dialects do this or do it in the same way. For example, the dialect in Uppsala is two-peaked, but Skånska (the southern Swedish dialect) is not two-peaked.
*If* Snorri were right about the Æsir coming from Asia, perhaps they could have to do with the Yamnaya. Whether myth, or mythologized humans, I do love learning about old lore
I always thought of the Vanir as being gods of nature and the natural functioning of the world, whereas the Aesir are gods of man and all their duties and obligations. A war between the two represents the establishment of a sort of harmony between them.
I think the context matters. If the Aesir and the Vanir are not being used in contraposition to each other, then they could be used as synonyms. The same way as they also use "eagle" and "hawk" indistinguishably if it serves the purpose of alteration, yet that doesn't mean they're the same animal.
The geographical cults idea isn’t uncommon. We see something similar in Egyptian pantheon, where each village had their own religion that was incorporated into the overarching Imperial religion. For example, the Sinai peninsula has temples dedicated to Hathor that is believed to have been the biblical Midian. We also see the association of mythology with geography in Greece, where all the locations used are real places.
norse history is just an ancient history which is connection with Hinduism ...the Aesir and vanir are called Asur and Devta in hindu mythology which they fought for amrit kalash
The comment about denominations in this context made me think of the Christian phrase "angels and saints". In most contexts we use them distinctly - angels as a separate class of saint in a theological sense. Yet we also use phrases such as "Saint Michael the Archangel". In fact, "saint" has different meanings across denominations or even pieties within them. It can mean a special class of human that acts as intercessors in heaven (or even grants graces and boons!) to just humans on earth - often meaning both within a few sentences depending on how the person is using them; and then angels get called saints but are considered by all to really be a distinct thing in our cosmology...well, until you get into folk religion and many Christians believe people become angels! Which could be another layer to looking at Norse religion I suppose? "Formal" beliefs vs "informal"?
Hello Dr Crawford Is it safe to say that the Vanir Goddesses married 'up' when they married into the Aesir pantheon when we have only a few instances of such marriages to point to. Obviously I am thinking about statistical validity. Further, is it possible too that the Vanir were matriarchal or matrilineal - much like ancient highlanders - often passing property down through the female line due to the males often being at war (perhaps like the highlanders and the Romans) and would this explain marriages amongst family members, ie, a shortage of males)? NB not here expressing the belief that the Vanir were people and not gods. Respectfully Briain Campbell-Hart
To me it looks like Aesir were sky gods and Vanir were land gods. They are both gods and hence Aesir/Vanir could be used interchangeably if further distinction was not necessary.
What if Snorri wasn't totally wrong, but just a little wrong? He's talking about the Æsir being ancestors to Kings, Vanir having a war then marrying in with them, and the Jotnar being a social rank below them. Almost as if he is talking about ethnic groups with one at the base. What if it is a feudal system? Aesir Vanir Jotnar Odin being a Jotunn then Æsir wouldn't be him changing races as much as he goes from a Jarl to a King.
Is Njord's name a cognate for the Celtic Nuada/Noddens? who is a very similar deity from a pantheon the Germanic/Nordic people would have been in contact with for certain. Are The Vanir gods Celtic deities that the Germans adopted? Just asking as an amateur looking at odd similarities between the Norse and Celtic Pantheon's surviving myths.
Could Heimdallr be both Æsir and Vanir? Since his father is Odin, could his Nine Mothers just be from Vanaheim? Or are they strictly identified as Jötun women?
You should look into comparative mythology some more. The themes of new gods replacing old gods is a common Indo-European motif. Asuras and Devas. Olympians and Titans.
How could the war not have been against the Æsir and the Vanir when we know which hostages were taken? That trade of Gods proves that the conflict was between the two sides
Interestingly we still have the word "vane" ( habit, practice, tradition, routine ) in Scandinavia, derived from ON "vani" (manner) & "van" (usual) - and also "vænne (sig) til" ( get (oneself) used to ) - even with the OE cognate "wuna" ( habit ; custom . practice ; rite (usually with ); ritual [!!!] ).
11:26 Is it necessarily a misinterpretation? Or a shift in religious thinking? Could the Vanir once have been the only gods, only to have their eventual displacement by the Æsir dramatized in the poetic cycle of war and hostage-taking?
Could it not be that the Vanir are a subset of the Aesir set? That way they can rightly be called both Aesir and Vanir. All Vanir are Aesir but not all Aesir are Vanir. The same way all birds are dinosaurs but not all dinosaurs are birds. Or that the US Marine Corps is US Military and can rightly be called that, at the same time as they are USMC. And, to be more relevant, I can call myself both Scandinavian and Swedish.
I've wondered if "Vanir" might be etymologically related to the English "wan," in the sense of gray or shadowy, so that it might refer to characters with an appearance similar to that of the ghosts in Harry Potter movies.
First I'd just like to thank you for all the great work you put into this channel and the videos you make. Now I have a (probably uneducated) question that was sparked by one of your videos on general Proto-Indo-European pantheons or something like that. I remember you saying that Tyr was likely the original head of the Norse pantheon, as his name is a cognate with other pantheon heads such as Zeus. Is it possible that Tyr and Thor were once the same god but later diverged in tradition? As many chief gods in indo-european pantheons are the gods of lightning and thunder and the names of thor and tyr are reasonable similar sounding. Basically I'm just asking if there's a possibility that Tyr and Thor were once the same god in Norse tradition.
Neal Cleaver Thórr's name comes from the same word as English thunder. Basically "thunr-", in Proto-Norse that N drops and in English it develops a epenthetic D. The Old English equivalent of Norse Thórr was simply Thunor, the word for thunder.
How does Dr. Crawford interpret Heimskringa? Magnus Magusson translated that as "the orb of the world" while others have it as "the circle of the world", in other words, a round versus a flat world.
I am not sure the word 'kringla' is specific enough to state either. From checking a few etymological references, the word has connotations or 'ring, round, surrounding, around'. (As a contemporary Swede and outside of this context, when I hear the word 'kringla' I think mainly of a type of pastry (kringle; brezel; pretzel, but the Swedish variety tends to be sweet rather than salt), and the word 'kring' which means 'around'.)
It's very tough to tell with so little evidence, but as you say the Vanir place names are clearly centered on Uppsala. The area around Uppsala is an area that became important as a place that Saami traders could bring their goods to trade with the larger 'viking' work. Björjkö is only a day away, on ice skates in winter. Odin doesn't fit with the other Æsir, in more ways than one. One of the ways he doesn't fit is the practice of Seiðr, which is strongly associated with females and with Saami, and there's been some very good work tying that into the broader circumpolar shamanic traditions. Seiðr is also associated with Vanir, as you note. So, if Snorri didn't just create them by misinterpretation, then it seems likely the story (and quite possibly the figure of Odin himself) is the product of a period of intermixture between Finno-ugric and Germanic peoples, over a period of centuries when they sometimes fought, sometimes traded, sometimes intermarried and shared stories. Snorri tries to tie Vanir to the river Don, but might the word not as plausibly be tied to 'Finn?'
I think that there's a rationale to tie it to the river Don... There's the farming aspect and the "foldable" miracle ship for Freyr. It would make sense that it points to place or people who could both farm and be able to navigate both river systems and seas if necessary. Taking in consideration what you've said about Finno-Ugric magic etc., I don't think that it needs be excluded. You can see a good combination of it all in ancient lands of Balts and Finns. There is a serious interplay there. Estonians are counted among Balts, although they are more like Finns. Courlanders or Kurši went on raids together with people of Saamsala. It has also always puzzled me how Hungarians, who are also Finno-Ugric people are above ancient lands of Thracians and Dacians, who used to have language and gods very similar to those of Balts. Now we have the same territorial dynamic up here. I'd even guess that people from upper Finland might have been considered Jotnar or the Giants. Not sure.
I think the different "categories" are either ancient remnants of different species of human (they were in the lands before "modern" humans migrated there, maybe they even died off because of their acceptance of incest? Or different cultures of humans
He isn't the only one that suggests they come from Asia and Anatolia. The norse, north and European ppl don't spring up from nowhere. They come from Anatolia from asia, some went east and north, some went across the sea into the caucus, others went around the Mediterranean, some went to india. All even if they lived in another region for a few hundred or a few thousand years all came from Anatolia and Asia. They dispersed and were pushed further into Europe passed the Dan and eventually up and across the Rhine because their fellow kinsmen tribes kept coming into the caucus region and forced the first few waves further west and northwest into Europe until some end up in Gaul.
Could the difference between aesir and vanir be as simple as the aesir were the gods, and the vanir were subordinate spirits. Sort of like the difference between God and angels?
Njord the sea god is Vanir so not subservient to the Aesir. The thing I find odder is how the Aesir males produce offspring with Jotun females but the Aesir supposedly hate them.
hokey finokey loki. surrounded by gods. gods under foot. gods over head. gods hidin under my bed. but the one i worry about ain't a god at all. it is the boogy man out in the hall. harharhar. thank yew jackson. take care my friend. gare
Just a thought... When Snorri Sturlasson wrote down the sagas, he must have chosen what to include and what not to include. Is it possible that he may have based some of his comments on information which later was lost, but may have been common knowledge around his time?
Could it just be that there are contradictory and anti-rational conceptions of the gods? Kind of like how there are multiple different, contradictory, stories detailing the deaths and relationships of various gods. Partly because different groups had different ideas at different times, but also because the insistence on internally consistent canon just isn't a pre-modern, pagan thing. It could be that Vanir sometimes refers just to 'gods' as a handy alliteration, whilst other times referring to a different subset (which may itself not be a consistent roster).
@Jackson Crawford This is perfect timing!! I was just researching the vanir! Dr jackson i was wondering what your thoughts are on the origins of Odin worship? i have heard some people theorise that it came from a travelling Mercury cult, what do you think of this? Or do you think that Odin is a god native to the north maybe derived from an old celtic diety like Ogmios or Lugus? Thanks!
I believe that these two distinct families were non existant in the days of the proto germans. Perhaps it is something that happened only among the norse
So what if "Ven" is the soft form of "Ben" thus meaning sons and the "ir" meaning people, and the context is about "gods," thus meaning "sons of the gods" or "people of the gods" or "sons of the people of god's people?" Or something in that manner.
Or possibly Aesir = Asura, and Dwarf = Deva. From what I understand (I am not a scholar in the subject...) that in norse mythology, the dwarves are mystical beings personifying the earth and the underground. They are capable of godlike feats, like forging a rope, made from the roots of mountains, capable of binding Fenrir, the wolf that shall devour the sun, moon and even Odin himself during Ragnarok.
![SAFEPLANET - ดาวเคราะห์ [ THE PLANET ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4X1XL3I_k3c/mqdefault.jpg)
This video from 2018 references a Discord channel connected to my Patreon community. This was a short-lived experiment in 2018 that did not last.
Is there any plans for an open (non Patreon, open to all viewers) Discord channel?
Could vanir have something to do with the vithra from hindu mythology?
"She chose her husband by his feet alone"
"..... I'm sure that excites some corners of the internet"
Broooo that was just so abrupt and nonchalant it totally caught me off guard 😂😂😂
He's right! (I expect more women would prefer to pick by the face).
Though ripe with rich commentary, my favorite part of the video is "I'll eat my hat if you can make me think otherwise," followed closely by "by his feet alone, which surely excites some corners of the internet."
This reminds me of European royal families. The families are so intermixed that you can talk about them as on big family, but you can also talk about them as different entities with different statues.
kokofan50 too many marriages, not enough surnames.
good analogy!
I'm so glad to have came across this youtube channel, Dr. Crawford is a reliable source of information regarding Norse history, language, and culture without being spoiled by any sorta political agenda, I've been a fan for only two months but I'm already excited for his translated book of the Volsung Sagas, keep up the good work Dr. Crawford, I'm excited to learn more.
If you can give me a true answer, if not please don't answer. What do you think about "Runes" can they really help us. And if they can, what is the realest source of information that you got it from?
My favourite part of this video? When he casually says that he will have more works published soon :-D I just finished the Volsung and Ragnar sagas (which I read just after finishing his Poetic Edda translation). I LOVE this mans work!
As a Norwegian I have in my possession quite a few translations of the Poetic Edda as well as a few sagas, but they’re all translated into a very archaic form of Norwegian which makes it difficult to read. It was a whole new experience reading through his translations :-) I can not recommend people checking out his books enough.
"Rudy's a great guy". Hearing Crawford talk about Simek is like listening to Iron Man talk about Wolverine. Glad to be alive and so heavily invested in this field in a time of such titans.
Tiny correction re: pronunciation - The 's' in the Sanskrit 'asura' is a regular s, as an Aesir, not an 'sh' sound (so it would be transliterated asura rather than aśura).
PS: You're certainly correct that asura is nowadays seen as meaning a class of demonic beings. This association comes from later (i.e. Epic and Puranik) Hindu mythology. In the Rigveda where the term first appears, the term seems more ambiguous, as some divine and some demonic beings are both called asuras.
Those aren't exactly later, they're later than the rigveda but much earlier than most other hindu mythology.
Hello Professor! Former CU graduate student here. I absolutely loved this video. Just wanted to give some Vedic parallels to the Norse story. The Vanirs are called Panis in vedas and they bargain with the messenger of the king of Gods. The messenger isn't flying as she is a female dog. But there is a hint of exchange just like the Norse story. The aesirs are called asuras in Vedic form and they are not necessarily demons in old versions. Even the king of gods, Indra is called an asura. I think the word means powerful. Secondly, the asuras do follow non incest rule. In 10th Mandala of Rgveda, there is a Yama-Yami Samvad which outlines what practice is to be abhorred and incest is listed as one.
All in all, a great video. Just wanted to add my 2 cents.
Thanks for adding information Nikhil. I have an interest in Vedic devinities especially the Devas
I enjoyed the video and the Colorado landscape.
Simek is my professor at university, he is amazing. We actually talked about this exact controversy. Meaning whether there are different families of gods or not. I really enjoy watching your videos, and I think it's great to get a second, also well-educated opinion on matters like these. Thank you.
Great post. I am writing a story involving entities named after these respective tribes or groups of gods and I'm glad to know this new information.
Dt. Crawford is a national treasure and we must protect him with our lives. 👑
"The Sun, the Moon, the Earth, ...Beer.
Nordic Priorities!
I enjoyed the video, it's the first time I come across this channel and I've subscribed! The landscape is beautiful btw :p
I really like your videos!!
arith 🙏🏼
Would love to see you guys do a collab
Thank you for being as accurate as you can be, making the distinction between what’s thought, what’s believed and what’s known, some content creators are not that accurate when they say things that they are obviously just copping onto their channels, one I can think of is northwoods kindred, they don’t make the distinction between things that are definitely understood and myths, I appreciate accurate information.
Having so much fun with your videos, just bought your book, too. Learning about my heritage of Danish descent.
Always enjoy your programs, thank you.
Beautiful video, Mr. Crawford!
You have explained to us, in the past, that the Jotunn should be regarded, not as typical giants but as a separate tribe or clan similar to the Aesir, so why not regard the Vanir in the same way?
One can see parallels between the Jotunn and the Greek titans. Powerful beings predating the gods or arising around the same time. They represent the harsh forces of nature that the Norse people would have to struggle with and overcome. The frost was a deadly force. So the struggles between the aesir and the jotunn can be seen as representative of the struggles between the people and the dangerous tricky and treacherous environment. There were also the fire jotunn though not often discussed other than Surt bringing the end to the world at the end of ragnarok, fire too was a dangerous force of course.
The Jotunn can be compared to the Titans but also to the hindu Asura demon clan, although the word Asura is a cognate of Aesir. Just an observation and this is not my field of research.
@@liquidzen906 I strongly agree with you.
Great video Dr. Crawford, thank you!
That exit was pretty smooth.
Btw, Dr Crawford, it's such a credit to your scholarship and your commitment to presenting an unbiased picture to us that you quite compellingly present the arguments for the Vanir not being a separate class of gods, at least at one time :)
I love these Doc-----absolutely fabulous---ALL of THEM & I think the detail is excellent. You can NEVER have TOO MUCH detail!! Keep up the good work doc----TOPMAN
I'm glad you brought n Simek.
This was another excellent video. Thank you so much! 👍
Any good sources on place-names around Uppsala being more Vanir-focused while places further out are less so?
My home region in Sweden seems to have a pretty even mix of Vanir and Aesir place-names, but also a couple which just have Ås- as elements and no specific gods mentioned. I'd be interested to read how these places compare to the the rest of the Swedish onomasticon.
Jag antar att du är svensk?
Många platser i Götaland bär ju namn efter Oden. Troligtvis var Allfadern central just i dessa områden. Kommer man närmare Uppsala verkar det som att Frej stod i centrum.
Wonderful video and informative as always. Thank you.
That was quite insightful.
Thank you for the clarification. It was enlightening.
I have a friend whos studied archeology. According to him the origins forVanir and the Æsir can be traced back to a warlike people migrating into Scandinavia back in the stoneage. Those people had war axes made of stone, and made war on the people living in Scandinavia and settled there. The theory is that the merging of these cultures and their religions (gods of fertility and harvest and gods of war), are the basis for alot of Norse Mythology and the war between the Æsir and Vanir. I.e a possible reason for the two different families in Norse mythology, is that early migration and conflict between two distinct cultures. With Frøy and Frøya being remnants and developed representations of the peaceful original inhabitants, whilst the victorious Æsir gods (Odin, Thor Tyr etc) are developed representations of the "Stoneaxe" people. That would also explain why there are more Æsir than Vanir. Whilst this cannot be proven it is an interesting theory with some merit. And it would make sense that tales from this conflict and the people in it would be retold and the people in them and their deeds be developed into mythology through many centuries.
Man do you have any more info on where I can read more on this, screenshotted ur comment but cant find an article about that. super interesting stuff
Extremely interesting. I'd like to read or hear something about this theory.
As aurora2097 wrote, it is basically a continuation of Snorri's euhemerizing theory about the gods. If the vanir were originally the gods of the early European farmers who lived in Scandinavia before the Indoeuropean "battleaxe" people came, then why do they all have Germanic names? It is very normal for Indoeuropean mythologies to have several different groups of gods, why should it not be the same for Norse mythology?
Doesn't make any sense that Vanir would be there originally, because if you look at Scandinavia, it's not really a farmers' dream... Another indication is that in Thracian culture, the boar played a significant role. And what remains of Dacian and Thracian language is fairly similar to Baltic languages. Also the place names of Dacian origins have many similarities to Latvian place-names.
The best thing of this professor makes content is always held on the outdoor 😂
Could the naming confusion not be the result of kennings? For example, we know that in Old Norse poetry, a bird's name can be substituted with the name of any other bird to make the meter work, but that does not lead us to believe they did not recognize the difference between a raven and an eagle. It seems entirely within reason that in such a tradition, it would be acceptable to use the terms "aesir" and "vanir" to refer to the gods as a whole as a poetic device, even if the terms weren't normally interchangeable.
I can't wait till your newest works come out, sir.
I've read the book "Gods and myths of Northern Europe" by H.R. Ellis Davidson and she believes that the Vanir are the gods of various fertility cults, possibly older than the later cults of the Aesir which developed around the migration era.
Perhaps they were seen originally as the same group of Gods but later when the "Aesir" gods began to be more popular, as time moved on people started distinguishing the two "eras" by separating them into two groups of gods.
This also align well with the Jotun being "lesser" still. Jotun are often tied to a landscape feature, in some instances they ARE the landscape features. There's signs that the Nordic myths might be a fusion of three systems of faith, with the Jotun being animistic spirits, the Vanir being more generic nature/fertility deities, these finally being supplanted in rank by a final incursion of gods, those being the Aesir.
I’m familiar with that theory too, I think there’s a great deal of interest that can be taken into investigating the origins of these mythic figures and legends
@@Kasarii This brings to mind the different classes of gods in Greco-Roman mythology as well: the Olympian gods, who have the most stories about them being the "Æsir", then fertility deities like Ceres/Demeter being the "Vanir", and finally landscape deities (e.g. rivers, nymphs, etc) being the "Jotun". The parallels aren't exact, of course -- Poseidon is an Olympian deity while Njörðr is a Vanir -- but they are broadly there.
Which causes one to ask: Is this because there was some sort of structural system creating a mythic hierarchy? or just a coincidence? or maybe inferring patterns where there are none?
Dang. What doesn't Simek write on? The guy's everywhere. He published a paper on the pre-Christian pillar cults of Syria that was indispensable. Incredible range, that guy. Also completely jealous that you appear to be on a first name basis with em. Rudy. heh. Thanks for the great videos.
Thanks again for a great video.
Snorri‘s interpretation of the Gods as ancestors from an area around the Don river (who were deified by later generations) has an intriguing connection to the putative place in which Proto-Indo-European was spoken about 5,000 years ago. In “The Horse, the Wheel and Language,” David Anthony presents a wealth of evidence that this place was the Ponto-Caspian steppe, to the west of the Don.
Anthony argues that the hunter-gatherers who preceded the PIE speakers in Europe adopted and made their own daughter languages from PIE b/c they adopted the useful stock-herding techniques of the PIE speakers, through trade alliances and intermarriage.
Just a check: Weren't the pre-indo Europeans and Indians farmes already?
phys.org/news/2016-06-farming-europe-people-modern-day-greece.html
What? The people of Europe before the Yamnaya (the most probable PIE speakers) were not hunter-gatherers in the vast majority of cases, but farmers. Many of Basque-related stock. Also we know from DNA that PIE mainly spread via migration (specifically male migration, it seems like), not cultural influence. At least not in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe. Westernmost Europe seems to have been a more slow process of intermarrying and cultural adoption however, with Yamnaya genes slowly taking over in Westernmost Europe over generations, the Basque being the only pocket left to this day.
@@Osvath97 A study done in Norway ca 2014-2015 about Sami people DNA showed some surprising results, ca 80% of the women(in north norway)had WHG DNA, whilst the male had mostly(ca 70%) had EHG DNA, and then later they got mixed with the proto germanic tribes, and ca 1000 BCE the Uralic tribes we call the Sami came. So The Sami are a perfect example to show that genalogy is a big mix of genes from several cultures.
Great stuff!
Amazing channel....I love it. So many things I have learned from you... thanks once again.
I'm floating the idea that the Vanir were more related to Shinto Kami than to 'Gods' per se, and it's not unheard of for powerful spirits to become elevated to a higher level deity (such as Yaweh taking his place among the Elohim), as were Njordr, Kvasir, Freyja and Freyr. Just putting it out there :)
This will strike you as odd perhaps, but as one who practices mysticism I'm glad to see someone who approaches the mythos from a factual perspective. Too often I spend hours of research trying to sort the ideas, ideals, and methods of someone who is at least no more well versed in the mystical approach than I am to separate what we know of the Norse - and thereby what I can incorporate into my own methods - from what they want me to believe is the way of things. This applies to both culture and mythology. I have found more things created by man and claimed ancient than I have things ancient that are claimed to be modern. It is refreshing to see someone who has then a passion for the history. While I know you may not believe that we who do practice a modern variation of these ways would respect what you do, I assure you we do. For in coming from this in a purely factual way you allow us to say with some degree of certainty what was in our myths and then say "I do this as it is inspired by this" with honesty. Further we can then also say honestly "this is modern, purely and invention, but I have found it of use in my practices" and not make ourselves to be a fool for claiming more than what is when pushed to evidences.
So you have my respect and thanks, as well as those like me who seek to understand what was as we embark on a system of belief. In a previous video you made comment of how you didn't feel it was your place to approve or disapprove of someones beliefs and that too was greatly welcome sir. If more scholars approached this with honesty and directness as you do I feel the recreation religions would have much less infighting, and much more unity in finding ways that worked to bring harmony and happiness to their practitioners.
Another great video, superb. Always fascinating and entertaining. Keep it up.
Well well well... Never though I'd know something Dr. Crawford didn't :p
On the pronunciation of 'Uppsala' in Swedish. The emphasis is indeed on the first syllable (like in Icelandic) but there is a very strong secondary emphasis on the second syllable, characteristic of the Swedish language. In so-called 'two-peaked' dialects this is dubbed the grave accent (or double tone). In a word with this double tone, like Uppsala, the second syllable starts higher in tone than the where the last syllable ended, and this phenomena is why Swedish is classified as being an (albeit simple) tonal language. A Chinese speaker once told me that the grave accent sounded to them like two falling tones in a row. A grammar book once described it to me as being similar to the difference in English between the 'White House' (where the president lives) and simply a 'white house' (just any ol' house that is white), where 'White House' corresponds to the acute accent and 'white house' to the grave accent.
It should be noted that not all dialects do this or do it in the same way. For example, the dialect in Uppsala is two-peaked, but Skånska (the southern Swedish dialect) is not two-peaked.
*If* Snorri were right about the Æsir coming from Asia, perhaps they could have to do with the Yamnaya. Whether myth, or mythologized humans, I do love learning about old lore
This is probably right.
You made me think bro, I appreciate you.
I like that you like Rudolf Simek. Great books.
Have you done a video on old Norse symbols? I’d be interested on what’s going in some of the old stone art.
Reminds me of my family's discord. The Norwegian side calls the Swede's "giants" and the Swede's label the Norwegians "stubborn and ignorant".
I always thought of the Vanir as being gods of nature and the natural functioning of the world, whereas the Aesir are gods of man and all their duties and obligations. A war between the two represents the establishment of a sort of harmony between them.
I think the context matters. If the Aesir and the Vanir are not being used in contraposition to each other, then they could be used as synonyms. The same way as they also use "eagle" and "hawk" indistinguishably if it serves the purpose of alteration, yet that doesn't mean they're the same animal.
The geographical cults idea isn’t uncommon. We see something similar in Egyptian pantheon, where each village had their own religion that was incorporated into the overarching Imperial religion. For example, the Sinai peninsula has temples dedicated to Hathor that is believed to have been the biblical Midian.
We also see the association of mythology with geography in Greece, where all the locations used are real places.
norse history is just an ancient history which is connection with Hinduism ...the Aesir and vanir are called Asur and Devta in hindu mythology which they fought for amrit kalash
The comment about denominations in this context made me think of the Christian phrase "angels and saints". In most contexts we use them distinctly - angels as a separate class of saint in a theological sense. Yet we also use phrases such as "Saint Michael the Archangel". In fact, "saint" has different meanings across denominations or even pieties within them. It can mean a special class of human that acts as intercessors in heaven (or even grants graces and boons!) to just humans on earth - often meaning both within a few sentences depending on how the person is using them; and then angels get called saints but are considered by all to really be a distinct thing in our cosmology...well, until you get into folk religion and many Christians believe people become angels! Which could be another layer to looking at Norse religion I suppose? "Formal" beliefs vs "informal"?
How frustrating there is not more sources to confirm or refute the history/myths.
So full of linky goodness!
Hello Dr Crawford
Is it safe to say that the Vanir Goddesses married 'up' when they married into the Aesir pantheon when we have only a few instances of such marriages to point to.
Obviously I am thinking about statistical validity.
Further, is it possible too that the Vanir were matriarchal or matrilineal - much like ancient highlanders - often passing property down through the female line due to the males often being at war (perhaps like the highlanders and the Romans) and would this explain marriages amongst family members, ie, a shortage of males)?
NB not here expressing the belief that the Vanir were people and not gods.
Respectfully
Briain Campbell-Hart
To me it looks like Aesir were sky gods and Vanir were land gods. They are both gods and hence Aesir/Vanir could be used interchangeably if further distinction was not necessary.
Dude you're so cool.
What if Snorri wasn't totally wrong, but just a little wrong?
He's talking about the Æsir being ancestors to Kings, Vanir having a war then marrying in with them, and the Jotnar being a social rank below them. Almost as if he is talking about ethnic groups with one at the base.
What if it is a feudal system?
Aesir
Vanir
Jotnar
Odin being a Jotunn then Æsir wouldn't be him changing races as much as he goes from a Jarl to a King.
14:23 Dr. Crawford, would saying he knows the future like the other vanir mean that vanir (maybe gods in general) are clairvoyant?
Is Njord's name a cognate for the Celtic Nuada/Noddens? who is a very similar deity from a pantheon the Germanic/Nordic people would have been in contact with for certain. Are The Vanir gods Celtic deities that the Germans adopted? Just asking as an amateur looking at odd similarities between the Norse and Celtic Pantheon's surviving myths.
Could Heimdallr be both Æsir and Vanir? Since his father is Odin, could his Nine Mothers just be from Vanaheim? Or are they strictly identified as Jötun women?
Thank you
In Hrolf Kraki's Saga aren't the swedes mentioned to be sacrificing to a Giant boar? Which implies something in connection with Frey?
Beautiful country
Thanks!
You should look into comparative mythology some more. The themes of new gods replacing old gods is a common Indo-European motif. Asuras and Devas. Olympians and Titans.
How could the war not have been against the Æsir and the Vanir when we know which hostages were taken? That trade of Gods proves that the conflict was between the two sides
Interestingly we still have the word "vane" ( habit, practice, tradition, routine ) in Scandinavia, derived from ON "vani" (manner) & "van" (usual) - and also "vænne (sig) til" ( get (oneself) used to ) -
even with the OE cognate "wuna" ( habit ; custom . practice ; rite (usually with ); ritual [!!!] ).
11:26 Is it necessarily a misinterpretation? Or a shift in religious thinking? Could the Vanir once have been the only gods, only to have their eventual displacement by the Æsir dramatized in the poetic cycle of war and hostage-taking?
Could it not be that the Vanir are a subset of the Aesir set? That way they can rightly be called both Aesir and Vanir. All Vanir are Aesir but not all Aesir are Vanir.
The same way all birds are dinosaurs but not all dinosaurs are birds. Or that the US Marine Corps is US Military and can rightly be called that, at the same time as they are USMC.
And, to be more relevant, I can call myself both Scandinavian and Swedish.
Shifu Careaga How does that fit with the sources as presented in the video?
FetFnask they are like Sweden and Norway, both Skandinavian, but different countries.
Jackson Crawford did not seem so sure.
Do we have any instances of Vanir being called part of the Aesir *other* than the ones specifically said to have joined them as hostages, wives, etc.?
If Heimdallr is a Vanr.. does that mean we're all inbred?
I've wondered if "Vanir" might be etymologically related to the English "wan," in the sense of gray or shadowy, so that it might refer to characters with an appearance similar to that of the ghosts in Harry Potter movies.
First I'd just like to thank you for all the great work you put into this channel and the videos you make. Now I have a (probably uneducated) question that was sparked by one of your videos on general Proto-Indo-European pantheons or something like that. I remember you saying that Tyr was likely the original head of the Norse pantheon, as his name is a cognate with other pantheon heads such as Zeus. Is it possible that Tyr and Thor were once the same god but later diverged in tradition? As many chief gods in indo-european pantheons are the gods of lightning and thunder and the names of thor and tyr are reasonable similar sounding.
Basically I'm just asking if there's a possibility that Tyr and Thor were once the same god in Norse tradition.
Neal Cleaver Thórr's name comes from the same word as English thunder. Basically "thunr-", in Proto-Norse that N drops and in English it develops a epenthetic D. The Old English equivalent of Norse Thórr was simply Thunor, the word for thunder.
Ah, I see. Well I'm just an guy with an internet connection so I wouldn't really know. In any case I'd be interested to see the answer to my question.
Can you explain what "vísl" means? It's a word I have been trying to figure out!
How does Dr. Crawford interpret Heimskringa? Magnus Magusson translated that as "the orb of the world" while others have it as "the circle of the world", in other words, a round versus a flat world.
I am not sure the word 'kringla' is specific enough to state either. From checking a few etymological references, the word has connotations or 'ring, round, surrounding, around'.
(As a contemporary Swede and outside of this context, when I hear the word 'kringla' I think mainly of a type of pastry (kringle; brezel; pretzel, but the Swedish variety tends to be sweet rather than salt), and the word 'kring' which means 'around'.)
The captions said "I'm mold nurse" 😹😹😹 instead of old norse
Is there any extensive written research on the subject?
It's very tough to tell with so little evidence, but as you say the Vanir place names are clearly centered on Uppsala. The area around Uppsala is an area that became important as a place that Saami traders could bring their goods to trade with the larger 'viking' work. Björjkö is only a day away, on ice skates in winter. Odin doesn't fit with the other Æsir, in more ways than one. One of the ways he doesn't fit is the practice of Seiðr, which is strongly associated with females and with Saami, and there's been some very good work tying that into the broader circumpolar shamanic traditions. Seiðr is also associated with Vanir, as you note. So, if Snorri didn't just create them by misinterpretation, then it seems likely the story (and quite possibly the figure of Odin himself) is the product of a period of intermixture between Finno-ugric and Germanic peoples, over a period of centuries when they sometimes fought, sometimes traded, sometimes intermarried and shared stories. Snorri tries to tie Vanir to the river Don, but might the word not as plausibly be tied to 'Finn?'
I think that there's a rationale to tie it to the river Don... There's the farming aspect and the "foldable" miracle ship for Freyr. It would make sense that it points to place or people who could both farm and be able to navigate both river systems and seas if necessary. Taking in consideration what you've said about Finno-Ugric magic etc., I don't think that it needs be excluded. You can see a good combination of it all in ancient lands of Balts and Finns. There is a serious interplay there. Estonians are counted among Balts, although they are more like Finns. Courlanders or Kurši went on raids together with people of Saamsala. It has also always puzzled me how Hungarians, who are also Finno-Ugric people are above ancient lands of Thracians and Dacians, who used to have language and gods very similar to those of Balts. Now we have the same territorial dynamic up here. I'd even guess that people from upper Finland might have been considered Jotnar or the Giants. Not sure.
I think the different "categories" are either ancient remnants of different species of human (they were in the lands before "modern" humans migrated there, maybe they even died off because of their acceptance of incest? Or different cultures of humans
Jesus, LadyOfTheLabyrinth's entire worldview btfo at 5:31
He isn't the only one that suggests they come from Asia and Anatolia. The norse, north and European ppl don't spring up from nowhere. They come from Anatolia from asia, some went east and north, some went across the sea into the caucus, others went around the Mediterranean, some went to india. All even if they lived in another region for a few hundred or a few thousand years all came from Anatolia and Asia. They dispersed and were pushed further into Europe passed the Dan and eventually up and across the Rhine because their fellow kinsmen tribes kept coming into the caucus region and forced the first few waves further west and northwest into Europe until some end up in Gaul.
Could the difference between aesir and vanir be as simple as the aesir were the gods, and the vanir were subordinate spirits. Sort of like the difference between God and angels?
Njord the sea god is Vanir so not subservient to the Aesir. The thing I find odder is how the Aesir males produce offspring with Jotun females but the Aesir supposedly hate them.
hokey finokey loki. surrounded by gods. gods under foot. gods over head. gods hidin under my bed. but the one i worry about ain't a god at all. it is the boogy man out in the hall. harharhar. thank yew jackson. take care my friend. gare
Is there evidence on a word used to refer to a female member of the Vanir? Like "Ásynja" is to the Aesir? If not, what can we infer about it?
Ynglinga as a word reminds me of England. How can it not?
Where is Vanaheim then? Russia? Ukraine? Is the Tanais hypothesis consistent?
Does not Állvismál contrast what the Vanir call something and what the Æsir call something? Does not that imply they are different at least somewhat?
Haha, oh man, foot fetish shout out was very unexpected.
Could you give some insights on the vegvisir symbol ?
Just a thought... When Snorri Sturlasson wrote down the sagas, he must have chosen what to include and what not to include. Is it possible that he may have based some of his comments on information which later was lost, but may have been common knowledge around his time?
Would you entertain an idea that Vanirs could be Balts in origin?
Could it just be that there are contradictory and anti-rational conceptions of the gods? Kind of like how there are multiple different, contradictory, stories detailing the deaths and relationships of various gods. Partly because different groups had different ideas at different times, but also because the insistence on internally consistent canon just isn't a pre-modern, pagan thing. It could be that Vanir sometimes refers just to 'gods' as a handy alliteration, whilst other times referring to a different subset (which may itself not be a consistent roster).
@Jackson Crawford This is perfect timing!! I was just researching the vanir! Dr jackson i was wondering what your thoughts are on the origins of Odin worship? i have heard some people theorise that it came from a travelling Mercury cult, what do you think of this? Or do you think that Odin is a god native to the north maybe derived from an old celtic diety like Ogmios or Lugus?
Thanks!
Swegda's wife was a Vanir.
only foot i take is a muddy foot
First War of the world, Aesir-Vanir vs Ymir and the Jötunar
I believe that these two distinct families were non existant in the days of the proto germans. Perhaps it is something that happened only among the norse
Another goddess might be vanir is Njörun the goddess of dreams all i know about her i know from wikipedea
So what if "Ven" is the soft form of "Ben" thus meaning sons and the "ir" meaning people, and the context is about "gods," thus meaning "sons of the gods" or "people of the gods" or "sons of the people of god's people?" Or something in that manner.
awesome. Aesir/Vanir ....Asura/Deva
Or possibly Aesir = Asura, and Dwarf = Deva. From what I understand (I am not a scholar in the subject...) that in norse mythology, the dwarves are mystical beings personifying the earth and the underground. They are capable of godlike feats, like forging a rope, made from the roots of mountains, capable of binding Fenrir, the wolf that shall devour the sun, moon and even Odin himself during Ragnarok.