I'm sure many have guessed at this. With common progression in common practice period you can't often go wrong.The Chppin etudes don't follow old progressions closely and putting 2 or even 3 pieces together is really more than just pianistic imagination. Like Taneyev Rach et.al.Godowsky knew a lot.
@@hardiksharma7230 theres like a variety of very different sections that make up the piece not just in technical terms but also in musical ups and downs that goes from the extreme highs to the extreme lows
I love "hidden" stuff like this. And I have seen and read about several instances of them over the years and it never ceases to fascinate me. One of my favorite example in Chopin's second Scherzo, where the very first four notes pretty much foreshadow the entire tonal landscape of the piece. I personally think it's a combination of both coincidence and subconsciousness. I wouldn't put it past these geniuses to deliberately do it, but it also might the case that when composing a piece, the creative juices interflow and find ways to go full circle. Brilliant video as always! My favorite Sonata is Liszt's B minor sonata. It would be great to see you cover it in a video, though it probably would have to be like an hour long so I get why you might avoid it 😂
I'll have to take a closer look at the scherzo...Another example is the beginning of the 1st Ballade which contains several of the motis used throughout. I love the Liszt sonata (was playing it this afternoon), but there are already some great analyses out there. If I can think of something unique to add then I'd certainly have a go.
Tonal schematics are awesome. Chopin's Op.1 contains that very thing in his Op. 31 but with an augmented triad for each section. (C,E,Ab,C) The internal workings of spontaneity and logic really meld together when one embarks on a composition. The sostenuto section in the 2nd movement of the Op. 58 has a similar embellished arpeggio section, like the first subject, contributing to the logical thread of this work. (Chopin had a very particular way of displacing each arpeggio note with the note just above it, a lot of his music has this. alongside his titular 3,7,2,1 melodies, which we see all of the time, absolutely littered everywhere in his repertoire!!)
So very glad you brought up the Scriabin 3rd Sonata. I actually tend to think of that one as a fourth Chopin sonata; the striking structural and thematic similarities between Chopin’s two mature sonatas and that Scriabin sonata are unable to be ignored. It’s quite the rabbit hole for those interested.
Wonderful vid, Fred. AND, I take it YOU played all of those subjects where you didn’t attribute a recording. Kudos, my friend! Yes, I looked at the description after I posted this… but great confirmation!
Thank you, Charles!! It's funny - I actually asked 3 pianists if I could feature their recordings but they never got back to me...so I figured I'd have to brush up my Scriabin 3/Beethoven Appassionata etc. It's been a fun project! On a separate note, I've been attempting Liszt's sonata for years now. Have you ever played it?
@@FrederickViner Are we talking about the 3rd or 4th page where the 2 hands are outlining chords, or near the end where the hands trade off the octave passages?
Both tbh. My LH octaves are much weaker - I struggle to keep a loose wrist and end up with tension. And with the double octaves on p 3-4, my accuracy will depend on which hand I watch: keep an eye on the RH and the LH misses; keep an eye on the LH and the RH misses...Maybe I'll just play the 2nd subject over and over instead :)
It is more like Chopin still would sound like Chopin, and Scriabin would, in whatever way, be further inspired by him. ;) Saying he would have gone where Scriabin went would imply that Scriabin was the continuation of Chopins specific genius. I don't think Scriabin was. That's like speculating that Mozart would have developed into Hummel. I like Scriabin, but don't think he had the same level of original genius, adventurous sense for exploration and thinking outside the box as Chopin had. Scriabin sounded Chopinesque, similar to most talented composers during Chopins lifetime sounded Beethovian. Chopin never did, however, sound like any other composer that influenced him (if we ignore the obviously Field inspired early Nocturnes for a moment). Although greatly inspired by Bach, Mozart and Bellini, even by Hummel, he discovered his very own original path almost right at the start. We can only guess, but will never know where Chopin would have gone if he had lived longer and remained mentally stable. Because genius is not foreseeable for any of us mere common mortals or it would not be genius. He may have gone to Rachmaninoff, or have another madly genius idea a few years later to revolutionize the musical world 100 years ahead of his time, or just be a burned out wreck. Though, the latter is not as likely because his creative progress was never really broken and constantly advancing, even with the later Sand years crippling his productivity.
Thank you for sharing this. Chopin is actually underrated because he is mostly regarded as a "romantic composer"..He was a genius composer! And his three piano sonatas are the best proof of that.
In his last interview, given just before his death in a plane crash (October 29, 1953), William Kapell was asked if Chopin was a romantic. Kapell's answer was: "Chopin was first and foremost a purist". And that is the basic truth about Chopin. By the way, the three most outstanding interpretations of the Third Sonata are those of Kapell, Lipatti and Arrau.
One thing that the Chopin and Scriabin examples have in common is that they're both fairly diatonic, except for the use of harmonic minor in the first subjects. So, the fact that they go well together is partly due to Romantic music being far more tolerant of dissonance that occurs within the same key than Classical era music is. Plus, the fact that the sharp 7th in the first subject just happens to not occur in the same measures as the natural 5th of the second subject.
Scriabin was a master of counterpoint In his works. If you take the example of his Prometheus, a supreme masterpiece, multiple themes are frequently merged together, although these are shorter motives. Also look at his Fantasy in B minor for some examples of his counterpoint techniques in a virtuosic piano showpiece. There are many examples of multiple melodic/thematic ideas being combined in his works. For this to have been deliberately constructed and then abandoned in the actual composition is certainly a possibility. Such as in the development sections. Composers can change their intentions with developing the material. Keep in mind that transpositions of themes may also be considered when it comes to combining them together. In other words the actual stated keys may conflict when not in the same key, obviously as heard in the examples you cited.
I have no idea whether it’s a creative coincidence or done on purpose, but I seriously want to put the Waldstein example as my ringtone, it just made my day. Great video! Many compliments, Fred!
Similar to a degree is the second subject of the first movement of the Janacek sonata. The two appearances are in relative major (G flat) and home minor (E flat minor). Instead of the theme being transposed it is played with the same notes but reharmonised in the second key. So the theme is repeated exactly in terms of notes, but in a different key.
I think odds aren't too bad that Skryabin did it knowingly in the 3rd sonata. In the 2nd movement of the 4th sonata, right before the coda, its first and second themes actually come together in counterpoint, so for that one its isn't even a question. Maybe the idea for that was actually born from the 3rd?
I wrote a sonata some time ago that intentionally had themes that worked together, and then as the climax of the piece they actually show up at the same time in different instruments
Medtner op. 11 no. 2 pulls this exact trick in the recapitulation. Then some of the later sonatas become very contrapuntally and self-referentially complex - the second movement of op. 25 no. 2 and the finale of op. 53 no. 1 are particular favourites to untangle.
I would be interested to see if the two themes from the same sonata can go together in the same key or the same key signature. Because of course in exposition, the two theme are in different keys. Most of the time they will be in different keys with different key signatures. Of course they don’t go well together otherwise composers would have invented bitonality back then (that would be impressive if that’s the case). I think of it because I remember learning that the cadenza of Beethoven’s violin concerto written by Kreisler put the two themes together contrapuntally. Just a bit extra explanation: same key signature as demonstrated in the video with parallel major/minor, not superimposing key signature on the same shape of melody
this is a super cool video!! specifically in the case of Chopin, I've always had the feeling that his music has hidden countermelodies - but I never thought they might be right there, in the same piece, just in a different place already :0 this is like thematic transformation or... something... to the next level... I'm gonna have to look at all of my music now haha
I like the fact that its Scriabins 3rd sonata, being from his early phase in which he was strongly influenced by Chopin. I would not consider it a coincidence though, looking at the other themes from the sonata, that are closely connected (for example the main theme of the finale with the first theme of the 1st movement). Also the first two themes are even played together in the movements development. Scriabin is also an interesting case when looking at the development of themes out of a small motive from the beginning (great example of this is Op.72, Vers la flamme; cyclic form with development from just a minor second up to his "ecstasy") So this cant be a coincidence here. More interesting it would be to know, is wether Scriabin knew of Chopins themes being related in that way or not. And: It does not surprise that the examples are rare, concidering the harmonical "norm" in sonata form, after which the second theme is usually in dominant key, and many composers of the classical period kind of followed this. Since many themes are related though, they might sound great together, if the key was changed... Greetings from Germany, and please excuse my bad english :)
It would be more correct to say that these two themes (overlapped as in the video) "fit together" only from a harmonic point of view. From a contrapuntal point of view they are absolutely incompatible, since they form different parallel fifths. Considering the contrapuntal rigor that can be observed in all of Chopin's production (unraveling all the accompaniment figurations) I would totally exclude the idea that this superposition of themes was consciously or unconsciously considered by him. But even talking about coincidence would be inappropriate. The second theme is one of those Chopinian themes with an extremely slow harmonic rhythm. In practice it consists only of the notes of the D major chord, with passing tones, neighbor tones and appogiaturas. The harmony changes only in the last two notes, the first of which, A, could still be part of the D major harmony. This allows for high harmonic "combinatoriality" with any theme in D major or B minor. So I consider it a rare case but still quite frequent given the conditions I have written.
Reminds me of Rudolph Reti's The Thematic Process in Music. From Wikipedia--Reti is best remembered today for his distinctive method of musical analysis, which he claimed revealed the 'thematic process' in music. His approach did not concern itself, however, with tracing the obvious thematic and motivic 'developments' displayed on the musical 'surface', but rather sought to demonstrate the way in which surface thematic variety is underpinned by a less apparent unity. For Reti, "the different movements of a classical symphony are built from one identical thought", and the composer "strives toward homogeneity in the inner essence but at the same time towards variety in the outer appearance. Therefore he changes the surface but maintains the substance of his shapes."
Thank you for a great revelation! I had no idea about the Chopin's themes in the 3rd Sonata fitting so well together, so glad you pointed that out! I think another great example of actually superimposing two themes in sonatas in Prokofiev. For example no. 2, 4th movement. The clearest example 2 pages before the end. Especially useful when you can use augmentation or pitch displacement of one of the themes. It is like a Bach's fugue's stretto moment. Devine! I also did this superimposition in my second piano sonata. A great trick to learn form the great masters.
The first movement of Chopin’s third sonata is the most structurally perfect piano piece throughout the entire music history. I can’t find any piano pieces other than Chopin’s third sonata that are both structurally perfect and beautiful to hear
Ironically, I have heard (and read) musicologists who disparage this first movement as just a collection of disparate melodies. I agree with you that it is an exceptional movement, but it does not wear its motivic unity "on its sleeve"--you have to dig a bit to find the connections that make it sound right together.
A lot of the examples you gave of sonata themes not working together were from the classical era. So I think one factor is that the chromatic language of Chopin and Scriabin allows for more wiggle room as far as fitting harmonies together using extensions and such, as opposed to the classical era’s strict diatonic language. Though, like you said, I would not put it past them that it’s intentional either.
Likewise, the first Albumblätt from Schumann's Bunte Blätter works as a canon with almost no rhythmic alteration (with every two measures repeating itself).
Prokofiev did this trick consciously in his 4th sonata, part 2. He gives two themes - main and second and in the final of part he combines them as lovely counterpoint and the second theme becomes accompaniment for main theme. Did you listen it?
It may just be a coincidence - but it's a bit like how Chopin's 24 preludes seem connected too. I think that the "contour" of the figuration in the first prelude is similar to the left hand patters in the final dramatic D minor. The ending of the F major - second to last - also has an uncanny harmonic quirk to it's ending, which seems to provide an unsettling moment of wonder before the finale. I don't know about anyone else - but I do like to see the op.28 Preludes as something more than just 24 short pieces - I feel like they are connected - partly by the sheer range of their contrast but also with some feeling of "arc". Could someone just jumble them all and play them in random order? sure. But that would feel wrong to me, I love hearing all 24 in sequence! all the way to those final fateful 3 low bell tolls in the D minor! (my favourite!)
That’s very interesting, but I think it was not intentional. And yes, this Chopin 3. Sonata is my absolutely favorite sonata. All movements are ,wow‘ - don’t have words for it. 😇
Sonata Chopin Posthumerous in C sharp minor - featured in the movvie "The Pianist" My seconed choice is from my child hood - The Prelude in D flat (Rain Drop plelude) For sentiment.
Scriabin 3rd Sonata always amazing, nos4 and 5 each really world's apart.I think similarity is because of the practice if the time .Melodyand harmonic progressions beforeDebussy,Ravel,Wagner always have a certain route so I,Iv,V and the other limited schema will easily be superimposed barring middlevoicing and subthematic material doesnt clash.WithMozart time chromaticism became so obtrusive this becomes difficult. Perhaps going back to Byrd,Purcell,Monteverdi we might find more pertinence.
In Chopin's 3rd, the relationship between the first and second theme is more of a thematic transformation a'la Liszt. Keep in mind that Mendelssohn used the same concept in his Scottish Symphony.
But, if a composer were to compose their 2nd subject so that it is aligned contrapuntally with the first subject, then why would he not be tempted to combine them together in the development (or recapitulation)…? I know I would (be tempted)
Wow that 1st+2nd subject layering was so beautiful! That sixteenth G in the LH tenor melody leading to F# over E minor… heartbreaking. About favorite sonatas, I love the Rachmaninov sonatas (including the cello one!) and concerti so much. He does do a lot of thematic layering already (maybe in a looser sense like mixing fragments of themes around instead of wholesale ones like this 1st+2nd subject superposition), but perhaps one could find some really nice amalgamations (themes from different movements put together, or perhaps even different concerti)
Is there a way to know if Chopin (or Scriabin) played these sections on top of each other? Because I wouldn't put it past someone as prolific in his playing as Chopin to do it as a way to show off in his concerts.
Chopin may have intended the two themes to be played together but the moment in the music never arised while working it out. Maybe the recap couldve been the place
I think it's more a function of how conventional the composer is with their thematic material. Brahms, for example, frequently used modal borrowings and chromaticism in the first theme, which at the time was a highly innovative process. I suspect this exercise would work poorly for his music. The more interesting part, in my opinion, is that the 2nd subject is generally more contrasting with the 1st, and for them to be similar is often a sign of a weak composition. That these examples remain interesting works while their subjects can largely be overlapped is pretty amazing to me. It shows how tempo, dynamics, texture are so important to the mood.
Hmmm, the Scriabin is the most convincing from a counterpoint sense, even more so than the Chopin. Considering Chopin’s almost exclusive writing for the piano, it would be more believable if this happened more than once. Regardless of opinions, your videos are just wonderful. I really enjoyed this. As for favourite sonatas, it is indeed a Scriabin! Sonata no. 2 ❤
It's a cool thought! But ultimately it's not really fair to look for this phenomenon in major-key sonata movements, and ESPECIALLY not one like the Waldstein that goes to such a distant key as III--all of the comparison choices should be from minor-key sonata movements that go to the relative major in the exposition (which is after all the first-level default choice for minor-key movements). Beethoven's first sonata is of this type, but it's also no surprise that it doesn't fit because the second theme is full of F-flats (b6 in the relative major). As someone else mentioned, the main reason the Chopin and the Scriabian work so well is that both themes are pretty diatonic. I think it would be interesting to do a version of this study that filters specifically for minor-key expositions that go to the relative major for their second theme, with a low amount of chromaticism in each--that way we'd really be able to tell whether this Chopin/Scriabin effect is _just_ the effect of diatonicism or whether there's actually something more there.
The Waldstein was mostly in there for laughs...and you'll find that I have in fact included several minor-to-major sonatas in this video (Haydn, Beethoven 23, Chopin 2, Mozart 8). I checked a few dozen other sonatas (including minor-to-major) and found that it largely doesn't work. I agree though that diatonicism plays a large part in these themes' compatibility. Others have mentioned Scriabin's extended harmonic language, which allows more 'wiggle room' for themes to slot together (i.e 7ths, 9ths and 13ths are permitted in a way that would sound odd in the Chopin)
@@FrederickVinerOh yes, I know you did include plenty of minor-key pieces too! and I believe that plenty others wouldn't work too, either because one or the other theme is too chromatic, and/or just because the way their harmonic functions line up are too different to be convincing (though the Mozart A minor wasn't bad, as you mention!). I wonder if one likely way for it to work out is if one or the other theme is largely over a pedal? The second theme of the Chopin puts its first three bars all over D, which surely helps to make it more amenable to combination.
It has happened to me,I wrote themes that are independent of eachother but when combined the work well together ( for example : one was in D Dorian, the other in G major but they worked well together.When I realised that I was like ( 🤯 ).in another theme the villain and hero share an ostinato that is the mirror image of eachother ... Ahhĥh ... The power of the subconscious,I wouldn't put it past them to have written both subjects to be combined,but then again sweet accidents like that do happen
Okay but the first two bars of the Waldstein mashup aren’t THAT bad… just giving me bitonal/Bartok vibes. Maybe Beethoven was just realllly ahead of his time…. Fun video! Love finding funky coincidences(?) like this. And thanks for the tax return reminder…
@@FrederickViner Hmm… at opposite ends of the spectrum, Scarlatti K 380 in E major, and the Scriabin sonata fantasie in G# minor. Also a couple duets - I love what Grieg added to Mozart K 545. There’s a wonderful recording with Lugansky as one of the pianists. And I recently discovered Carl Vine’s sonata for piano four hands. Intriguing stuff!
I'm coaching a duo at the moment so I'll have to check out that Mozart! Not sure if they'd be up for the Vine though... What do you make of late Scriabin?
@@FrederickViner the Mozart/Grieg is lovely; light and spring-like. The Rondo, especially, is just bouncing and happy. I believe it’s for two pianos. The Vine recommended itself to me on TH-cam and I couldn’t stop listening; really cool rhythms in the prelude section. I’m less familiar with late Scriabin; do you have any recommendations?
Its an awesome little thing but I doubt it was conscious or intentional, I doubt Chopin would just waste this clever idea by never actually using it in the sonata if he intentionally and consciously came up with it, "Let-me just make these two themes fit contrapunctally but never play them at the same time, cuz why not"
Yet another testament to Chopin's unfathomable genius. While composers like Haydn or Scriabin are good composers in their own right, they are nowhere near the level of Chopin. He is second to none and the TRUE master of piano in terms of the sheer number of masterpieces he created. Take any 5 of his masterpieces and you would have a career for a lesser composer like Haydn or Schumann etc.
@@FrederickViner Alright. Mozart's 331, Haydn's Hob.16/23 in F, Beethoven's Nos. 8,11, 31; Schubert's D. 894, 960, Liszt's B minor, Scriabin's 2nd, Prokofiev's 6th...will have to do for the moment. Though, I feel like I have forsaken many other dear favorites.
The reason is just that Chopin thought harmonically and melodically, not motivically. Harmonically, the second subject is ostinato D Major arpeggios with a melody over the top, and the 1st subject revolves both harmonically and melodically around B Minor and its dominant. That's why they go over the top of each other nicely, but it isn't intentional.
The theme's major-minor relatedness certainly has a lot to do with their compatibility. But Chopin most certainly did think motivically too. If you just take the upbeat to the 1st subject you'll find that it's absolutely everywhere.
Well perhaps that is more the case in his sonatas, but in the rest of his works he rarely constructs music by using repeated motifs. Even in this sonata he does not repeat motifs within the initial statement of the subject. (He is the complete opposite of Beethoven in this way.)
I can't lay my hands on the reference right now, but Liszt wrote something about Chopin's struggle to write works that worked by means of motivic development - he attributed it to Chopin not being naturally a "logical" musical thinker, and rather more a composer who worked by mood and feeling.
This idea's not far-fetched at all, reminds me of Dohnányi's last string quartet (th-cam.com/video/uHs1IE9yrOQ/w-d-xo.html). The first and last movements (in A) begin with the same opening notes, in the same direction, with similar ratios of note duration. I think this is intentional, can't say exactly the same for Chopin and Scriabin though. In late romantic music, patterns of interconnected themes are quite common (a book called "two-dimensional sonata form" delves a bit into that).
Thanks for the comment. I wasn't trying to make any broader point about Haydn; rather, I was using the Haydn (along with the Beethoven) to illustrate one small point within the video. I don't think it's weird - as it's a very sprawling, overview kinda video - but I hope you enjoyed it nonetheless!
How did Godowsky not realize this?
He was busy using his right hand the way you use your right hand on the computer keyboard. 😮
Maybe he did, and this was the trigger for all the doubled up Chopin studies.
I'm sure many have guessed at this. With common progression in common practice period you can't often go wrong.The Chppin etudes don't follow old progressions closely and putting 2 or even 3 pieces together is really more than just pianistic imagination. Like Taneyev Rach et.al.Godowsky knew a lot.
1:22 if Waldstein had been written by Prokofiev
Just what I was thinking!!
Great comment lmao
is this my cue to not listen to him
Meanwhile Liszt sonata being an absolute swiss army knife 💀
can u pls elaborate,😅 i didnt quite understand the joke
@@hardiksharma7230 theres like a variety of very different sections that make up the piece not just in technical terms but also in musical ups and downs that goes from the extreme highs to the extreme lows
I love "hidden" stuff like this. And I have seen and read about several instances of them over the years and it never ceases to fascinate me.
One of my favorite example in Chopin's second Scherzo, where the very first four notes pretty much foreshadow the entire tonal landscape of the piece.
I personally think it's a combination of both coincidence and subconsciousness. I wouldn't put it past these geniuses to deliberately do it, but it also might the case that when composing a piece, the creative juices interflow and find ways to go full circle.
Brilliant video as always!
My favorite Sonata is Liszt's B minor sonata. It would be great to see you cover it in a video, though it probably would have to be like an hour long so I get why you might avoid it 😂
I'll have to take a closer look at the scherzo...Another example is the beginning of the 1st Ballade which contains several of the motis used throughout.
I love the Liszt sonata (was playing it this afternoon), but there are already some great analyses out there. If I can think of something unique to add then I'd certainly have a go.
Tonal schematics are awesome. Chopin's Op.1 contains that very thing in his Op. 31 but with an augmented triad for each section. (C,E,Ab,C)
The internal workings of spontaneity and logic really meld together when one embarks on a composition. The sostenuto section in the 2nd movement of the Op. 58 has a similar embellished arpeggio section, like the first subject, contributing to the logical thread of this work. (Chopin had a very particular way of displacing each arpeggio note with the note just above it, a lot of his music has this. alongside his titular 3,7,2,1 melodies, which we see all of the time, absolutely littered everywhere in his repertoire!!)
So very glad you brought up the Scriabin 3rd Sonata. I actually tend to think of that one as a fourth Chopin sonata; the striking structural and thematic similarities between Chopin’s two mature sonatas and that Scriabin sonata are unable to be ignored. It’s quite the rabbit hole for those interested.
What a coincidence! I have been absolutely OBSESSED with this sonata these last days! Amazing video!
The subjects of scriabin's sonata together is just amazing
Wonderful vid, Fred. AND, I take it YOU played all of those subjects where you didn’t attribute a recording. Kudos, my friend!
Yes, I looked at the description after I posted this… but great confirmation!
Thank you, Charles!! It's funny - I actually asked 3 pianists if I could feature their recordings but they never got back to me...so I figured I'd have to brush up my Scriabin 3/Beethoven Appassionata etc. It's been a fun project!
On a separate note, I've been attempting Liszt's sonata for years now. Have you ever played it?
@@FrederickViner it was the program closer on my final graduate recital 😁 it’s a great and beastly piece.
Any tips for the double octaves? Aside from praying...?@@CharlesSzczepanek
@@FrederickViner Are we talking about the 3rd or 4th page where the 2 hands are outlining chords, or near the end where the hands trade off the octave passages?
Both tbh. My LH octaves are much weaker - I struggle to keep a loose wrist and end up with tension. And with the double octaves on p 3-4, my accuracy will depend on which hand I watch: keep an eye on the RH and the LH misses; keep an eye on the LH and the RH misses...Maybe I'll just play the 2nd subject over and over instead :)
I always think that Chopin would sound very similar to Scriabin if Chopin lived longer. My both favorite composers ❤️
I think so too!
It is more like Chopin still would sound like Chopin, and Scriabin would, in whatever way, be further inspired by him. ;) Saying he would have gone where Scriabin went would imply that Scriabin was the continuation of Chopins specific genius. I don't think Scriabin was. That's like speculating that Mozart would have developed into Hummel.
I like Scriabin, but don't think he had the same level of original genius, adventurous sense for exploration and thinking outside the box as Chopin had. Scriabin sounded Chopinesque, similar to most talented composers during Chopins lifetime sounded Beethovian. Chopin never did, however, sound like any other composer that influenced him (if we ignore the obviously Field inspired early Nocturnes for a moment). Although greatly inspired by Bach, Mozart and Bellini, even by Hummel, he discovered his very own original path almost right at the start.
We can only guess, but will never know where Chopin would have gone if he had lived longer and remained mentally stable. Because genius is not foreseeable for any of us mere common mortals or it would not be genius. He may have gone to Rachmaninoff, or have another madly genius idea a few years later to revolutionize the musical world 100 years ahead of his time, or just be a burned out wreck. Though, the latter is not as likely because his creative progress was never really broken and constantly advancing, even with the later Sand years crippling his productivity.
Thank you for sharing this. Chopin is actually underrated because he is mostly regarded as a "romantic composer"..He was a genius composer! And his three piano sonatas are the best proof of that.
In his last interview, given just before his death in a plane crash (October 29, 1953), William Kapell was asked if Chopin was a romantic. Kapell's answer was: "Chopin was first and foremost a purist". And that is the basic truth about Chopin.
By the way, the three most outstanding interpretations of the Third Sonata are those of Kapell, Lipatti and Arrau.
*two piano sonatas, the other one is for cello and piano
@@loganm2924 it is three he wrote a piano sonata in c minor
@@openendedthinking4033 No he didn't
@@loganm2924 Yes he did. It's opus no. 4
One thing that the Chopin and Scriabin examples have in common is that they're both fairly diatonic, except for the use of harmonic minor in the first subjects. So, the fact that they go well together is partly due to Romantic music being far more tolerant of dissonance that occurs within the same key than Classical era music is. Plus, the fact that the sharp 7th in the first subject just happens to not occur in the same measures as the natural 5th of the second subject.
Wow the result is so beautiful...
I would love a whole piece out of the combination of these two themes from chopin❤
That would be a challenge!
Scriabin was a master of counterpoint In his works. If you take the example of his Prometheus, a supreme masterpiece, multiple themes are frequently merged together, although these are shorter motives.
Also look at his Fantasy in B minor for some examples of his counterpoint techniques in a virtuosic piano showpiece. There are many examples of multiple melodic/thematic ideas being combined in his works. For this to have been deliberately constructed and then abandoned in the actual composition is certainly a possibility. Such as in the development sections. Composers can change their intentions with developing the material.
Keep in mind that transpositions of themes may also be considered when it comes to combining them together. In other words the actual stated keys may conflict when not in the same key, obviously as heard in the examples you cited.
What you are doing is a very clever approach. Please, continue to do so!
Thank you! I'll try!
0:39 and that's how Chopin meets early-Scriabin
yes i love all those 7ths created
Rather Scriabin meets Chopin..
I have no idea whether it’s a creative coincidence or done on purpose, but I seriously want to put the Waldstein example as my ringtone, it just made my day.
Great video! Many compliments, Fred!
Denis, dorogoi, privet moj uchitel'.
This sonata is one of my favourites of all time!
for me too,it is ballisticosmic for me.
Also, I always felt the second theme is a possible callback to his Grande Polonaise from over a decade prior
Scriabin is the ultimate Chopin fanboy he probably knew this. His 3rd sonata sounds like a dedication to chopins
Similar to a degree is the second subject of the first movement of the Janacek sonata. The two appearances are in relative major (G flat) and home minor (E flat minor). Instead of the theme being transposed it is played with the same notes but reharmonised in the second key. So the theme is repeated exactly in terms of notes, but in a different key.
I think odds aren't too bad that Skryabin did it knowingly in the 3rd sonata. In the 2nd movement of the 4th sonata, right before the coda, its first and second themes actually come together in counterpoint, so for that one its isn't even a question. Maybe the idea for that was actually born from the 3rd?
I wrote a sonata some time ago that intentionally had themes that worked together, and then as the climax of the piece they actually show up at the same time in different instruments
Will you upload that sonata to your channel?
@@FrederickViner I thought I replied with a MuseScore link, but that comment isn't here
I uploaded it to my channel now
The 1st sonata is so underrated it deserves a video of its own
I didn’t know he wrote a first sonata
@@Charlie-vf8hw chopins 1st sonata is quite good actually
Chopin was a master of this, so many hidden details. I wonder if he did it subconsciously
You are inspiring, Frederick! Thank you for such an interesting video.
Medtner op. 11 no. 2 pulls this exact trick in the recapitulation. Then some of the later sonatas become very contrapuntally and self-referentially complex - the second movement of op. 25 no. 2 and the finale of op. 53 no. 1 are particular favourites to untangle.
I would be interested to see if the two themes from the same sonata can go together in the same key or the same key signature. Because of course in exposition, the two theme are in different keys. Most of the time they will be in different keys with different key signatures. Of course they don’t go well together otherwise composers would have invented bitonality back then (that would be impressive if that’s the case). I think of it because I remember learning that the cadenza of Beethoven’s violin concerto written by Kreisler put the two themes together contrapuntally.
Just a bit extra explanation: same key signature as demonstrated in the video with parallel major/minor, not superimposing key signature on the same shape of melody
this is a super cool video!! specifically in the case of Chopin, I've always had the feeling that his music has hidden countermelodies - but I never thought they might be right there, in the same piece, just in a different place already :0 this is like thematic transformation or... something... to the next level... I'm gonna have to look at all of my music now haha
1:22 works in a Milhaudian sense …
I like the fact that its Scriabins 3rd sonata, being from his early phase in which he was strongly influenced by Chopin. I would not consider it a coincidence though, looking at the other themes from the sonata, that are closely connected (for example the main theme of the finale with the first theme of the 1st movement). Also the first two themes are even played together in the movements development.
Scriabin is also an interesting case when looking at the development of themes out of a small motive from the beginning (great example of this is Op.72, Vers la flamme; cyclic form with development from just a minor second up to his "ecstasy")
So this cant be a coincidence here. More interesting it would be to know, is wether Scriabin knew of Chopins themes being related in that way or not.
And: It does not surprise that the examples are rare, concidering the harmonical "norm" in sonata form, after which the second theme is usually in dominant key, and many composers of the classical period kind of followed this. Since many themes are related though, they might sound great together, if the key was changed...
Greetings from Germany, and please excuse my bad english :)
It would be more correct to say that these two themes (overlapped as in the video) "fit together" only from a harmonic point of view. From a contrapuntal point of view they are absolutely incompatible, since they form different parallel fifths. Considering the contrapuntal rigor that can be observed in all of Chopin's production (unraveling all the accompaniment figurations) I would totally exclude the idea that this superposition of themes was consciously or unconsciously considered by him. But even talking about coincidence would be inappropriate. The second theme is one of those Chopinian themes with an extremely slow harmonic rhythm. In practice it consists only of the notes of the D major chord, with passing tones, neighbor tones and appogiaturas. The harmony changes only in the last two notes, the first of which, A, could still be part of the D major harmony. This allows for high harmonic "combinatoriality" with any theme in D major or B minor. So I consider it a rare case but still quite frequent given the conditions I have written.
Reminds me of Rudolph Reti's The Thematic Process in Music. From Wikipedia--Reti is best remembered today for his distinctive method of musical analysis, which he claimed revealed the 'thematic process' in music. His approach did not concern itself, however, with tracing the obvious thematic and motivic 'developments' displayed on the musical 'surface', but rather sought to demonstrate the way in which surface thematic variety is underpinned by a less apparent unity. For Reti, "the different movements of a classical symphony are built from one identical thought", and the composer "strives toward homogeneity in the inner essence but at the same time towards variety in the outer appearance. Therefore he changes the surface but maintains the substance of his shapes."
Thank you for a great revelation! I had no idea about the Chopin's themes in the 3rd Sonata fitting so well together, so glad you pointed that out!
I think another great example of actually superimposing two themes in sonatas in Prokofiev. For example no. 2, 4th movement. The clearest example 2 pages before the end. Especially useful when you can use augmentation or pitch displacement of one of the themes. It is like a Bach's fugue's stretto moment. Devine!
I also did this superimposition in my second piano sonata. A great trick to learn form the great masters.
I absolutely love that Prokofiev - definitely worth a video on its own. Is there a recording available for your sonata? I'd be very interested :)
1:21 that actually sounds kinda good
The first movement of Chopin’s third sonata is the most structurally perfect piano piece throughout the entire music history. I can’t find any piano pieces other than Chopin’s third sonata that are both structurally perfect and beautiful to hear
Ironically, I have heard (and read) musicologists who disparage this first movement as just a collection of disparate melodies.
I agree with you that it is an exceptional movement, but it does not wear its motivic unity "on its sleeve"--you have to dig a bit to find the connections that make it sound right together.
Amazing music channel found, subscribed!
A lot of the examples you gave of sonata themes not working together were from the classical era. So I think one factor is that the chromatic language of Chopin and Scriabin allows for more wiggle room as far as fitting harmonies together using extensions and such, as opposed to the classical era’s strict diatonic language. Though, like you said, I would not put it past them that it’s intentional either.
Very good point.
Likewise, the first Albumblätt from Schumann's Bunte Blätter works as a canon with almost no rhythmic alteration (with every two measures repeating itself).
1:20 Milhaud has entered the chat
Prokofiev did this trick consciously in his 4th sonata, part 2. He gives two themes - main and second and in the final of part he combines them as lovely counterpoint and the second theme becomes accompaniment for main theme. Did you listen it?
Do you mean the 2nd movement?
@@FrederickVineryes, 2nd movement
"All other extracts and *abominations* were performed by Frederick Viner."
My poor wife having to listen to me practice...
the magic of music, the alchemy of art
This is great! I'd love a video on Waldstein
Cheers, Adam! Will add it to the list...
Check out the last mvt of Mendelssohn's violin concerto, where he actually does this. -Toby
It may just be a coincidence - but it's a bit like how Chopin's 24 preludes seem connected too.
I think that the "contour" of the figuration in the first prelude is similar to the left hand patters in the final dramatic D minor. The ending of the F major - second to last - also has an uncanny harmonic quirk to it's ending, which seems to provide an unsettling moment of wonder before the finale.
I don't know about anyone else - but I do like to see the op.28 Preludes as something more than just 24 short pieces - I feel like they are connected - partly by the sheer range of their contrast but also with some feeling of "arc".
Could someone just jumble them all and play them in random order? sure. But that would feel wrong to me, I love hearing all 24 in sequence! all the way to those final fateful 3 low bell tolls in the D minor! (my favourite!)
That’s very interesting, but I think it was not intentional. And yes, this Chopin 3. Sonata is my absolutely favorite sonata. All movements are ,wow‘ - don’t have words for it. 😇
Brilliant video, sent it to my piano teacher!
Thank you, Alexander! Hope they enjoy it too!
Sonata Chopin Posthumerous in C sharp minor - featured in the movvie "The Pianist" My seconed choice is from my child hood - The Prelude in D flat (Rain Drop plelude) For sentiment.
The Mozart 310 mashup sounded a bit like Chopin's Winter Wind Etude.
Good spot!
Scriabin mashup is unbelievably good
Great Video!
Thank you!
200th like. This kind of content is fascinating.
Great minds think [a]like (themselves).
I have no doubt that Chopin knew this. I might have been a deliberate hidden feature intended for someone like you.
Scriabin n 2 and n4 they are just chef kiss(and chopin n 3)
Great choices! How about Scriabin 5?
Scriabin 3rd Sonata always amazing, nos4 and 5 each really world's apart.I think similarity is because of the practice if the time .Melodyand harmonic progressions beforeDebussy,Ravel,Wagner always have a certain route so I,Iv,V and the other limited schema will easily be superimposed barring middlevoicing and subthematic material doesnt clash.WithMozart time chromaticism became so obtrusive this becomes difficult. Perhaps going back to Byrd,Purcell,Monteverdi we might find more pertinence.
Some of my favorite piano sonatas are (in no particular order):
any of Scriabin's late ones
Beethoven 28
Mozart 3
Liszt B minor
Great choices! Have you heard the Grieg sonata? Thinking of covering that in a video soon
@@FrederickViner I haven't really listened to it [at all], but I've heard some great things about it.
@FrederickViner Also I forgot to include Medtner's Night Wind on the list
In Chopin's 3rd, the relationship between the first and second theme is more of a thematic transformation a'la Liszt. Keep in mind that Mendelssohn used the same concept in his Scottish Symphony.
The two themes of the "Waldstein" played together sound like something Prokofiev might have composed a century later.
Wonderful!
If I had to choose one piece in all of piano literature…this Sonata would be it.
lol that tax return hit close to home. I should stop procrastinating that
But, if a composer were to compose their 2nd subject so that it is aligned contrapuntally with the first subject, then why would he not be tempted to combine them together in the development (or recapitulation)…?
I know I would (be tempted)
Scriabin does this in his development section but only with small fragments of the themes.
1:21 if Prokofiev wrote the Waldstein
Wow that 1st+2nd subject layering was so beautiful! That sixteenth G in the LH tenor melody leading to F# over E minor… heartbreaking. About favorite sonatas, I love the Rachmaninov sonatas (including the cello one!) and concerti so much. He does do a lot of thematic layering already (maybe in a looser sense like mixing fragments of themes around instead of wholesale ones like this 1st+2nd subject superposition), but perhaps one could find some really nice amalgamations (themes from different movements put together, or perhaps even different concerti)
Is there a way to know if Chopin (or Scriabin) played these sections on top of each other? Because I wouldn't put it past someone as prolific in his playing as Chopin to do it as a way to show off in his concerts.
Chopin's 3rd sonata > Chopin's 2nd sonata
Where does Scriabin 3 rank for you?
@@FrederickViner Scriabin 3's 1st subject is breathtaking. As a whole, I'm not sure.
Chopin may have intended the two themes to be played together but the moment in the music never arised while working it out. Maybe the recap couldve been the place
My personal favourite sonatas are most definitely Chopin B minor, Liszt B minor, Beethoven Appassionata, Les Adieux, Pathetique.
Great choices! Any Schubert?
@FrederickViner
Schubert is not bad but I don't have much time playing him as an "amateur virtuoso."
Absolutely love his B-flat Sonata D.960, though.
I think it's more a function of how conventional the composer is with their thematic material. Brahms, for example, frequently used modal borrowings and chromaticism in the first theme, which at the time was a highly innovative process. I suspect this exercise would work poorly for his music.
The more interesting part, in my opinion, is that the 2nd subject is generally more contrasting with the 1st, and for them to be similar is often a sign of a weak composition. That these examples remain interesting works while their subjects can largely be overlapped is pretty amazing to me. It shows how tempo, dynamics, texture are so important to the mood.
Hmmm, the Scriabin is the most convincing from a counterpoint sense, even more so than the Chopin. Considering Chopin’s almost exclusive writing for the piano, it would be more believable if this happened more than once.
Regardless of opinions, your videos are just wonderful. I really enjoyed this. As for favourite sonatas, it is indeed a Scriabin! Sonata no. 2 ❤
Thanks for the kind words, Christoph! What do you make of the later Scriabin? No. 5 perhaps?
It's a cool thought! But ultimately it's not really fair to look for this phenomenon in major-key sonata movements, and ESPECIALLY not one like the Waldstein that goes to such a distant key as III--all of the comparison choices should be from minor-key sonata movements that go to the relative major in the exposition (which is after all the first-level default choice for minor-key movements). Beethoven's first sonata is of this type, but it's also no surprise that it doesn't fit because the second theme is full of F-flats (b6 in the relative major). As someone else mentioned, the main reason the Chopin and the Scriabian work so well is that both themes are pretty diatonic. I think it would be interesting to do a version of this study that filters specifically for minor-key expositions that go to the relative major for their second theme, with a low amount of chromaticism in each--that way we'd really be able to tell whether this Chopin/Scriabin effect is _just_ the effect of diatonicism or whether there's actually something more there.
The Waldstein was mostly in there for laughs...and you'll find that I have in fact included several minor-to-major sonatas in this video (Haydn, Beethoven 23, Chopin 2, Mozart 8). I checked a few dozen other sonatas (including minor-to-major) and found that it largely doesn't work. I agree though that diatonicism plays a large part in these themes' compatibility. Others have mentioned Scriabin's extended harmonic language, which allows more 'wiggle room' for themes to slot together (i.e 7ths, 9ths and 13ths are permitted in a way that would sound odd in the Chopin)
@@FrederickVinerOh yes, I know you did include plenty of minor-key pieces too! and I believe that plenty others wouldn't work too, either because one or the other theme is too chromatic, and/or just because the way their harmonic functions line up are too different to be convincing (though the Mozart A minor wasn't bad, as you mention!). I wonder if one likely way for it to work out is if one or the other theme is largely over a pedal? The second theme of the Chopin puts its first three bars all over D, which surely helps to make it more amenable to combination.
2:17
It has happened to me,I wrote themes that are independent of eachother but when combined the work well together ( for example : one was in D Dorian, the other in G major but they worked well together.When I realised that I was like ( 🤯 ).in another theme the villain and hero share an ostinato that is the mirror image of eachother ... Ahhĥh ... The power of the subconscious,I wouldn't put it past them to have written both subjects to be combined,but then again sweet accidents like that do happen
This is because sonata is very intelectual genre. Romantic composers were trying to put as much as they can in it, the best example -- Liszt's b minor
I've done a lot of this with Chopin's music. Not sure why this works. I've superimposed diferent compositions of his also.
I think you are thinking. That is the only justification needed.
That's a very interesting concept!
Glad you think so!
Okay but the first two bars of the Waldstein mashup aren’t THAT bad… just giving me bitonal/Bartok vibes. Maybe Beethoven was just realllly ahead of his time….
Fun video! Love finding funky coincidences(?) like this. And thanks for the tax return reminder…
What are some of your favourite sonatas, Bethany? :)
@@FrederickViner Hmm… at opposite ends of the spectrum, Scarlatti K 380 in E major, and the Scriabin sonata fantasie in G# minor.
Also a couple duets - I love what Grieg added to Mozart K 545. There’s a wonderful recording with Lugansky as one of the pianists. And I recently discovered Carl Vine’s sonata for piano four hands. Intriguing stuff!
I'm coaching a duo at the moment so I'll have to check out that Mozart! Not sure if they'd be up for the Vine though...
What do you make of late Scriabin?
@@FrederickViner the Mozart/Grieg is lovely; light and spring-like. The Rondo, especially, is just bouncing and happy. I believe it’s for two pianos. The Vine recommended itself to me on TH-cam and I couldn’t stop listening; really cool rhythms in the prelude section.
I’m less familiar with late Scriabin; do you have any recommendations?
My favourites from mid-late period would be sonatas 4-5-9, Poem of Ecstasy/Fire and Vers la Flamme@@bethanywakim6175
Try my Sonata Militaire for the 'clever?' ending.
I suscribed to your channel hoping for a better insight to composing the concerto form.
Its an awesome little thing but I doubt it was conscious or intentional, I doubt Chopin would just waste this clever idea by never actually using it in the sonata if he intentionally and consciously came up with it, "Let-me just make these two themes fit contrapunctally but never play them at the same time, cuz why not"
Yet another testament to Chopin's unfathomable genius. While composers like Haydn or Scriabin are good composers in their own right, they are nowhere near the level of Chopin. He is second to none and the TRUE master of piano in terms of the sheer number of masterpieces he created. Take any 5 of his masterpieces and you would have a career for a lesser composer like Haydn or Schumann etc.
My favorite Sonatas? You have to limit me to a certain amount, otherwise I'll list like 30 to 40 sonatas.
Top 10?
@@FrederickViner Alright. Mozart's 331, Haydn's Hob.16/23 in F, Beethoven's Nos. 8,11, 31; Schubert's D. 894, 960, Liszt's B minor, Scriabin's 2nd, Prokofiev's 6th...will have to do for the moment. Though, I feel like I have forsaken many other dear favorites.
Suggestion: analyzing rachmaninoff elegie op3 no 1
Scriabin + Chopin= Scriopin
Are you a composer bro?
Yes he is.
The reason is just that Chopin thought harmonically and melodically, not motivically. Harmonically, the second subject is ostinato D Major arpeggios with a melody over the top, and the 1st subject revolves both harmonically and melodically around B Minor and its dominant. That's why they go over the top of each other nicely, but it isn't intentional.
The theme's major-minor relatedness certainly has a lot to do with their compatibility. But Chopin most certainly did think motivically too. If you just take the upbeat to the 1st subject you'll find that it's absolutely everywhere.
Well perhaps that is more the case in his sonatas, but in the rest of his works he rarely constructs music by using repeated motifs. Even in this sonata he does not repeat motifs within the initial statement of the subject. (He is the complete opposite of Beethoven in this way.)
I can't lay my hands on the reference right now, but Liszt wrote something about Chopin's struggle to write works that worked by means of motivic development - he attributed it to Chopin not being naturally a "logical" musical thinker, and rather more a composer who worked by mood and feeling.
This idea's not far-fetched at all, reminds me of Dohnányi's last string quartet (th-cam.com/video/uHs1IE9yrOQ/w-d-xo.html). The first and last movements (in A) begin with the same opening notes, in the same direction, with similar ratios of note duration. I think this is intentional, can't say exactly the same for Chopin and Scriabin though.
In late romantic music, patterns of interconnected themes are quite common (a book called "two-dimensional sonata form" delves a bit into that).
I'll have to check out that book!
I think with Chopin it was both self conscious and sub conscious.
🧐
*faints*
even if, what is the point? they will never be played together so.. nice video tho
See 'Educational Abominations' :)
If it was Bach, maybe. But I think just a coincidence
kinda weird to point out a single example of haydn's a and b themes being similar as if like 50% of his sonata movements aren't monothematic
Thanks for the comment. I wasn't trying to make any broader point about Haydn; rather, I was using the Haydn (along with the Beethoven) to illustrate one small point within the video. I don't think it's weird - as it's a very sprawling, overview kinda video - but I hope you enjoyed it nonetheless!
Um.... over thinking. It s just the person s work.