If you like this video, please consider supporting my work on Patreon! www.patreon.com/LeviMcClain Huge thanks to Margo Zelle, the Solfège Queen for her amazing vocals in the example at 10:11. Go check her out here: www.tiktok.com/@margozelle
We need the full song. We need a whole album. We need more of you, and your amazing music partners, and your supernatural-odd-makes-me-shiver-but-its-a-new-kind-of-harmonic-bliss music in our lives. This is a statement. Please. Anyway, thanks a million, you showed me a whole new world of auditory sensations that I needed in my life. SELL US YOUR SONGS !
Another comment: while you focus mainly on tunings and scales, you are clearly into what I call "metric awareness". I mean, "metric awareness", for me, means one does not have to be stuck in 4/4. One can use whatever one needs for a given purpose. One day, it would be cool if you take us into your take on "metric awareness"... cheers
Funny you mention that! I'm not sure if you've seen it or not, but my last video was a giant rabbit hole deep dive into metrical thinking, and how humans detect and perceive beats and meter through things like spontaneous rhythmization and embodied music cognition! Love the topic! Here's that video: th-cam.com/video/TY9QuYNIxjo/w-d-xo.html
Another great video! Love the observation of vertical and horizontal approaches to music. I’ve never really considered that before. Also, I Can’t read ‘icositritonic’ without thinking it’s an ingredient in a sports drink, haha!
I haven't, but I'll probably dabble around in it now! I came across the 1L 6s MOS before but haven't used it. I might mess around with it in 22edo where I can also use porcupine temperament, but looking into the 31edo version is equally as interesting.
@@YoVariableAfaik Nusecond is not supported by 22edo, it is however supported by a non-patent val 23edo, and probably by a non-patent val 15edo as well.
Thanks for the great vid. I admire the way you take care of the production of your music. Regarding Farya's rant: th-cam.com/video/LR511iAedYU/w-d-xo.html
This is amazing! The way you you transform the theory into music is great, it holds ground perfectly without having to explain the theory. The amount of work that goes into this is astounding. Keep up the great work!
Thank you so much! It’s easy to get lost in the theory. I always make it a priority to poke my head out every once in a while and make sure I’m actually writing music with this stuff lol
New favourite video of yours. I think this might have been the clearest explanation of a 31 EDO scale I've seen so far (Xenharmonic wiki is very confusing if you aren't into the jargon), and holy moly was it an interesting one. I loved the compositions and especially how you showed how to sing over it. I can't imagine how wild it must be to practice that. Sounded amazing though. Some constructive criticism, if it's ok: 1: I think having some kind of markers around the diesis wheel (or whatever it's called) where the approximations of the relevant intervals we know from 12 edo are would be helpful for those of us who aren't used to thinking in diesis steps yet: for example, I'm pretty sure from the video that the 31 edo approximation of the fifth is around the 18th diesis step. If that could be indicated with some kind of colour difference or writing or something, I think that would be helpful when talking about the fifth. Same goes for the major or minor third when talking about thirds in general. 2: I think maybe the detour into talking about Middle Eastern music and explaining how it differs in expression from Western music felt a little bit tagged on? I at least got a little bit lost in my focus there and there wasn't really a satisfying conclusion to it, like a composition based on heptanoic nunesecond like there was with the two other approaches. It was a good explanation though. I get that it was pretty logical to talk about it when explaining the first tetrachord, but maybe it would have made more sense to tie it in when you were already talking about how the scale doesn't really conform to a home chord, and then you could pivot to how you might approach a scale (or melodic structure) that doesn't do that by showing how Middle Eastern music does it. Then you could show how the first tetrachord looks like uşşak/bayati/shur. Anyway, I'm only saying these things because I really hope you do more like this. It was super inspiring to watch and made me really giddy to try and make some 31 edo music myself.
@@rasmusn.e.m1064 thank you! I love that idea for adding on relevant approximations for 12. I think that would be big help for everyone coming over from 12 ( in other words… everyone lol). Just gotta figure out how to do it in a way that’s not super cluttered. So there may be some confusion to your second point, I did have an eastern composition based on nusecond! The first one around 3:19 was an eastern approach, and the altered nusecond was the western approach. Might have been better to tag the eastern composition closer to the explanation but I decided to do it that way for audience retention purposes. Clearly something wasn’t communicated well if you didn’t even notice that, my bad 😬 Gotta get this stuff out wide, but its also important to give each idea their due diligence, so structuring these videos is a balancing act. I find that the conversations in western online microtonal spaces tend to either pretend that eastern music doesn’t exist, or claim that the microtonal stuff in the west has already been done for thousands of years in the east. There are problems with both of these perspectives, which was the subplot of this video that I wanted to begin to address. I began this video saying that we were going to examine the same idea through two different lenses of composition, eastern and western. I ended the video by doing exactly that while also coming to the conclusion that the scale falls into neither category and should be treated as it’s own thing. Still, I appreciate the feedback, I’ll try to be less tacked on in the future!!
@@LeviMcClain No problem, and I'm happy you found the input helpful. And yes, potential clutter is exactly the issue. Maybe making a quick aside to explain where a particular interval is and then just changing the colour would be most helpful in some instances, something like that. I bet you're better than me at figuring out the specifics of that. I did notice that the first composition was "modal" though I didn't exactly notice the Middle Eastern vibe, and maybe that's just because I'm used to music from the Balkans where the horizontal approach is also really common, so the difference from "normal music" wasn't that obvious to me. Anyway, I should just have said what you did because that was what I meant; the reason the part about ME music felt tagged on to me was because it was disjointed from the first musical example with the horizontal approach, but I didn't want to say categorically that this needed to be the first part of the video, so that's why I didn't. Sorry I wasn't clear about that. But yeah, I totally get that balancing act. I help teach kids who struggle with grammar exactly that, and it's really difficult to know for sure where to segue between two subjects, when to be explicit about abstract concepts, and when to let them learn the patterns through trial and error. There is no single right answer, and it often depends on the specific kids, how long ago lunch was, among other unpredictable factors :). I am not familiar with Western online microtonal spaces, and, as you say, most people aren't, so I didn't quite catch the opposite side in your dialectic but it does sound like an interesting topic to dive into, and I'm sure Farya Faraji would have a field day with it. It makes sense that Orientalism would creep its way into that particular bubble, too; It seems like it's almost hyperpervasive, lol. And yes, now your conclusion makes a lot more sense to me. It seems like the fact that we are stuck with the term 'scale' when describing functional subsets of notes in microtonal edo's is maybe a bit of an issue. Anyone got a better term? Anyway, I really appreciated you taking your time to respond and what you do to expose more people to this stuff. Cheers :)
great video! nusecond is a cool one, especially nusecond[8]. one really interesting alteration of nusecond[8] is actually a modMOS with steps 3 4 3 4 4 5 4 4, notes P1 m2 s3 M3 S4 P5 M6 n7 P8, so it has a major sixth chord, 6:7:9:10:11, and 11th harmonic on the root. cool scale, with similar melodic properties to an equal octatonic scale. definitely hope you get bigger, would love to see more people getting into 31edo!
Where can I find more of this 31 EDO scales? I only know of the Mothra [6] thanks to Zhea Erose's video, but I would really like to check out more of this scales and it's variations
Couple of options for you: The Xenharmonic Wiki can sometimes be a good resource for scales, however it's weighed down with so much technical theory speak and math that its hard to parse through it with a high degree of understanding unless you are well versed in the ins and outs of tuning theory. I've got a couple videos: "I broke music theory" and "Discovering a NEW MODE Through This Microtonal Defect" which goes over some other neat 31 based scales. Zheanna has other great videos that go over different scales like that Mothra video as well. Become a microtonalist on my Patreon! It grants you access to the Microtonalist Manual, a comprehensive theory guide I've put together containing an exhaustive chord/scale list in 31, tuning files, exclusive lectures, and other microtonal resources. Here's the link: www.patreon.com/LeviMcClain
You can also search for Scale Workshop 3 where you can build your own scales with the "Moment of symmetry" or MOS button, but you need to know some tuning theory if you're going to use it (it can get pretty confusing).
if you search for 31edo modes on the xenharmonic wiki, you’ll get a great list. for actual explanations, the external links on the 31edo xenharmonic wiki page may be a good place to start.
Muy interesante, ya que en Argentina siempre estuvo invisibilizado lo que no fuera cultura occidental. Espero con ansiedad poder acceder, en un tiempo no tan lejano, a instrumentos que me permitan explorarlo. Algo que no es tan fácil desde aquí con el sueldo de un docente. Gracias por brindar lo que para mi es nuevo conocimiento.
Puedes usar controladores MIDI para eso, VST gratuitos como el SurgeXT admiten afinaciones microtonales. Hay que dedicarle un poco a mapear las teclas del piano, pero es posible, así empecé yo a experimentar. O ya si hay más tiempo y dedicación es posible construir un controlador MIDI específico para que lo necesites, yo por ejemplo construí uno para tocar en 31 EDO acá en Colombia con el equivalente a unos 250 dólares en materiales y a punta de tutoriales de TH-cam
It's a nice tuning system, but the 12 tone equal temp is still the Jesus Christ's (and Krzysztof Pretkiewicz's) approved system, as to the fact how harmonic and consonant it is to itself.
if you use octatonic nusecond instead, you get a more even scale with two 6:7:10:11 chords in it, meaning a root with a subminor third, a major sixth, and neutral seventh. it’s an uncommon chord for sure, but it sounds good arpeggiated and occasionally as a full chord.
Astounding stuff! I really enjoy the comparison of Western microtonal theory to the music of other cultures - I feel those who are interested in the former often neglect that our interpretation of music is but one of many.
Another banger video! It would be cool if Nusecond temperament in 31edo also supported porcupine temperament, where 3 neutral seconds stack to a perfect 4th. Generators around 160¢-165¢ (compared to 155¢ in 31edo) are optimal for porcupine. If you want a really well-tuned perfect 5th and 4th, 29edo might pique your interest. One flaw of porcupine, however, is that the 6/5 minor third becomes sharper, typically around 320¢-330¢ (compared to the ideal ~316¢). If 31edo were to support porcupine temperament, we wouldn't have to build Icositritonic Nusecond[23] to have a well-tuned perfect 5th!
Nusecond is a Meantone extension. Where 9/8 = 10/9, 36/25 = 10/7 and 11/10 = 12/11. In Porcupine we have 100/81 = 6/5, 8/7 = 9/8 and 10/9 = 11/10. Supporting both temperaments at once would force 5/4 = 6/5 = 9/7 = 11/9, among other things. Most likely this would force our temperament to become 5edo.
@@henrikljungstrand2036Thanks for your comment! That’s a lot of tuning damage and it’s clear that tempering all of those intervals to the same note eventually leads to 5edo. I would say that stacking two generators of Porcupine makes this new interval function as 6/5, 100/81, *and* 11/9. Saying that this interval is 100/81 is a bit of a stretch, but I see your rationale. 10/9 = 11/10, so (10/9)^2 = 100/81. (11/10)^2 = 121/100, but since 10/9 = 11/10, (10/9)^2 = (11/10)^2, which means 100/81 = 121/100.
@@YoVariable Well, actually i found an error in my comment/calculation. Because Nusecond is not really a Meantone extension, i remembered it wrong. So it doesn't need to temper out 81/80 (setting 9/8 = 10/9), this is the case just in 31edo. It is a Starling temperament (tempering out 126/125, thus setting (6/5)^2=36/25 = 10/7) and a Biyatismic temperament (tempering out 121/120, thus setting 11/10 = 12/11) however. I think the Nusecond/Porcupine temperament you want may actually be realized in patent val 15edo, which is a bit better, but i have to return to this, to check that all the relevant commas are indeed tempered out (treated as unison 1/1). Currently i am at my job now, so not much spare time. I truly apologize for my error.
@@YoVariable Checked it finally. A Nusecond Porcupine hybrid doesn't work in 5edo, but it does work in 8edo, using the 8d val. This is an 11-limit temperament that tempers 126/125, 121/120 and 99/98 (or 540/539) as undecimal Nusecond demands, and that also tempers 250/243 as pental Porcupine demands, although this is not septimal Porcupine, so it doesn't temper 64/63, and indeed uses an accurate 7/6 (7/6 "patent val") but a non-accurate 7/4 (not patent val, second best val instead). It does temper 100/99 however (an undecimal Porcupine comma), and thus also 50/49. The alternative Nusecond Porcupine hybrid is 15edo. This tempers 250/243 and 64/63 as per septimal Porcupine, but only tempers 126/125 and 121/120, so it is per undecimal Nusecond minus the ordinary comma for 7-limit. In this 15edo version of Nusecond Porcupine, the neutral second represents 12/11 but not 49/45, and 9/7 and 14/11 are not tempered to each other. Instead of tempering out 99/98 it tempers out 100/99, so it is an undecimal Porcupine. Trying to temper all of 126/125, 121/120, 99/98, 250/243 and 64/63 results in failure and we only get 0edo, the temperament with only one note and the unison interval, nothing else. So naive Nusecond Porcupine doesn't work. If instead we only use the common commas of these two relaxed Nusecond Porcupine temperaments we get 11-limit 8d & 15 = 7d & 15, also known as Opossum temperament. This might be interesting to compose in. I have carefully checked that i don't subconsciously assume Meantone i.e. 81/80 tempered out, or any other such silly mistake now. You are welcome to check my calculations if you like, i think they are final now.
I think it’s neutral, however the reason it’s hard to say is because the 3rd to 5th interval is inversely proportional to the Root to 3rd. So flattening one of the stacked thirds Augments the other
Partly a critique and mostly a genuine question, why do we need to try to make the 31tet have a perfect fifth? If that’s in 12tet why not focus on the strengths 31 tet DOES have and make better scales with that instead of using 12edo as a base?
that bass is sick... I want one. the vocalist really sold that... not easy. as the owner of a custom-built 31-TET guitar and a Lumatone, I'm so down for this. great stuff.
I don't see why maqams should not be considered scales? To me, they are just not the kind of scales that may be considered modes of a single scale. And there is no free change of tonic in a single maqam scale. Rather, only the first tone of a particular jin may be considered a tonic. Only certain combinations of jins into maqams are considered valid. The maqams are still scales. Am i incorrect in something here?
maqamat are similar to scales, but the way they’re used in arabic music is very distinct from how we use scales in the western tradition. in 31edo, however, it can be helpful to translate them into scales and use them how we would any other scale. just know that this isn’t true to how they’re used traditionally.
@@alexr3912 Alright. Are you knowledgeable about maqamat in the Arabic tradition? Care to elucidate? I am not scared of long, detailed, technical explanations at all, i rather welcome meticulous clarity. Coming from the European tradition myself, yet i never liked the "circle of fifths", the note notation, atonal music, nor the limits of 12 tones per octave, and especially not the lack of good 5-limit and 7-limit intervals in 12edo. Music theory was for many years too hard for me to understand, because of the lack of rigorous mathematical explanation, as well as lack of close correspondence with reality regarding the "purity" of major and minor chords. Pythagorean tuning, the harmonic partials of wave frequencies, ad hoc just intonation adjustments, and especially the regular temperament paradigm and xenharmonic music theory gave me the clarity that was lacking earlier in European traditional music theory. I am a strong natural empath, and a very mathematical mind, with a great fondness for beautiful music, who will not however accept illogical or inauthentic explanations that are unfaithful to Truth.
@@henrikljungstrand2036i know some, but definitely not enough to do it justice, and it wouldn’t be perfect. indonesian, turkish, and arabic tuning systems are some of my favorites to look into, and i definitely recommend you do the same. most of what i do relates to 31edo, but world music is fascinating.
@@alexr3912 Yeah i agree. It is so mind opening and sometimes heart healing, to take part in the various musical traditions of the world, and get different perspectives on what music can be, compared to your own upbringing. And don't get me wrong, i absolutely love much of traditional European folk music, pagan or otherwise, Middle Ages and Renaissance music from Church, Chamber and Orchestra alike, and even much of modern Western music, especially that which is authentic rather than pretentious, that which is avantgarde and critical of commercialism, materialism, dogmatism, power abuse, hypocrisy and other societal problems, this includes music in traditional scales, certain just intonation scales, Meantone and yes 12 tone equal temperament as well, plus the ultra-modern xenharmonic music in such temperaments as Superpyth, Magic, Porcupine, Orwell, Bohlen-Pierce, Miracle etc in various equal and non-equal temperament tunings, plus extended just intonation in higher prime limits. I am somewhat partial towards Persian music with their 17 note enharmonic/hyperchromatic scale (consisting of several dastgah), and their gentle tempered 3/2 fifths, where the 32/27 minor third is tempered into a 13/11 minor third (by tempering out the comma 352/351), which is split in two unequal 13/12 and 12/11 neutral seconds, and where furthermore the 81/64 major third is tempered into a 14/11 major third (by tempering out the 364/363 comma), from which we get the tempered 14/13 interval (by splitting off a 13/11 minor third), something inbetween a neutral second and a minor second, from which we get the 7/6, 8/7, 9/7 and 7/4 intervals. By tempering the 256/243 minor second into something inbetween a 21/20 and a 22/21 minor second (tempering out the 896/891, 5120/5103 and 441/440 commas), we further get the tempered 11/10 interval (a smallish major second), which in turn gives us the 6/5, 5/4, 10/9 and 9/5 intervals. 87edo would be an okay equal temperament for composing and performing Persian music, though more accurate Minthmic temperaments may be desired, such as 159edo or something alike. I also very much like Indian music, with their 22 tone extended chromatic scale (12 classes with 2 pitches in each, except for the 2/1 "octave" and 3/2 "fifth" classes over the tonic, which contain but one pitch) of sruti in three sizes (about 9/8, 10/9 and 16/15 in size), which may be considered to temper out 2048/2025 (identifying the 45/32 and 64/45 tritones) in the 5-limit, and possibly also 4375/4374 or 245/243 in the 7-limit, dependent on the accuracy desired. Since Indian music is very JI purist, i would go for tempering out 4375/4374. 46edo is an okay equal temperament for composing and performing Indian music, though more accurate Diaschismic temperaments may be desired, such as 126edo.
@@henrikljungstrand2036 it’s true, trying to approximate other cultures’ music in an equal or regular temperament will always be an uphill battle, as they really just aren’t made for that. the use of super large EDOs like 159 is so specific and uncommon anyways that using one to approximate the tuning of another system doesn’t do much. it is a fun exercise though, to see how representative you can get, and i have praised more manageable EDOs like 41 for being able to represent music from many cultures on a very basic level, which is nice for western learners who’ll never be able to hear or appreciate the more specific tuning aspects of these other cultures.
Super cool video! (like all your videos) It would also be nice to (instead of hacking the scale into a wester music theory) try to find its own moods and crazy dissonant harmonies.
For sure! I’m a big believer in “anything can sound good in the right context”. We could absolutely do some crazy cool things with nusecond’s dissonance, but that’s a whole other video in itself.
I like "hack it". Stick to a scale if you want... and if that scale doesn't have a perfect 5th that you want... who cares? If you play a fretless, or a ribbon, or a voice... play the 5th you want.
I wonder if a song could be made that relies on the pure major tonal system for it's perfect major chords, and 31 EDO for the melody. I might give this a shot myself with some music.
this is a good idea, but unfortunately it has the same issue that most just intonation systems have. it’s hard to construct a scale with pure chords everywhere we’d want them, such as how standard JI major has a wolf chord on the ii. if you don’t constrict yourself to one scale, you’ll have to have notes in separate chords differing by a syntonic comma if you don’t want the tuning of the chords to drift up or down
@@alexr3912 I searched for a couple of examples and noticed just this. The chords are pure major starting on their root note, but when you have a bunch of them, they sound out of tune to each other, and it's jarring.
Levi mind blowing video. Thanks for sharing and I did get the impresdion of Eastern music from it. I love your compositions by the way. You are able to make what normally sounds out of tune and dissonant accessible to me.
Great videos, but sometimes I think your compositions are too interesting to be good for analysing the specific sounds of the different scales. Surely just noodling on a piano and sampling some of the predominant harmonics available would be better
I get what you’re saying, but to me that seems boring. I want to show what this stuff can do when pushed to its fullest form of expression. I want to encourage people to try this stuff for themselves by really selling it with the music. If you’re interested in analyzing the specific flavor of a temperament i’m showcasing, I suggest trying it out for yourself at home. I’m sure it’ll be a lot more beneficial than listening to me do the same thing in a video. Appreciate the comment!!
Hi! Thank you so much for shedding some light on microtonal theory. Can't get enough of 31 TET it's such a versatile and beautiful temperament, but it's not easy to make progress left alone with my feeble amount of talent and some confusing clues left on xenharmonic wiki. Please make more educational content about all this, I'm gonna lap up every sexcond of it. Cheers! Watching you playing bass is depressing though, you're sadly too good to be inspiring. lol ((:
Such a unique and valuable content Levi , Thank you :) looking forward to see more of this. An interesting and very unique fact about maqam saba in arabic music is that the 8th note (octave) the root but instead its b1 which release tension more than the root surprisingly!
The circle diagram reminds me of the roots of cyclotomic polynomials on the imaginary unit circle (see TheGrayCuber's videos). Wonder if we can classify scales with certain types of polynomials.
I love you videos about 31 EDO so much. I try to make microtonal Techno in 31 EDO. I have been working with microtonality for over a year. 31 EDO is really one of the most interesting sound systems. You really helped me understand the whole theory behind it. What I want to ask you: Is there actually a way to harmonize the microtones in 31 EDO with the normal twelve-tone scale?
Is there a webshop where I can buy your insane abominations? You often have short pieces, but I'd like the full versions. You are very enlightened. Envious!
Hm more to experiment with. So this scale of 4 31EDO steps until you get to the last interval is like the microtonal equivalent of Euclidean Rhythms. Which makes me ponder what other such “Euclidean” tunings bring about useful systems. Thanks for posting. Sorry my bad, not a Euclidean Rhythm as a tuning system. Still your proposed tuning system, opens the way for similar constructs of a series of equal steps, then the last step to make the octave a different step size. Also will experiment to hear what a Euclidean Rhythm of 31 divisions with 7 pulses would sound like, i.e. step sizes of 5,4,4,5,4,4,5 (sum=31). Some great fretless bass work there from you :) .
Putting the minor third and subminor third together while still diminished should be a little more stable in that its closer to the 5:6:7 from a 4:5:6:7 harmonic 7th chord, also you could have gone to the 8 note scale by doing 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3, if the small step was smaller itd be porcupine but this is something else im not sure the name of, but it should make some things more accessible for only 1 more note.. Also that sharp fifth can be stacked to make a neat 8 note scale called oneirotonic, as a temperament itd be A-team[8].
the 8-note is also cool because that 3-step semitone can be placed above the root to give you a sort of leading tone (that works because the scale doesn’t have a perfect fifth), and it also gives you a 6:7:10:11 chord on the root. also the 6:7:10:11 on the step below gives you an interesting option for a dominant chord
@@LeviMcClain well if you want to be precise, the slapp triplets did sound like a 15 year old begginer trying his hand at bass Im sure you can do better
If you like this video, please consider supporting my work on Patreon! www.patreon.com/LeviMcClain
Huge thanks to Margo Zelle, the Solfège Queen for her amazing vocals in the example at 10:11.
Go check her out here: www.tiktok.com/@margozelle
We need the full song. We need a whole album. We need more of you, and your amazing music partners, and your supernatural-odd-makes-me-shiver-but-its-a-new-kind-of-harmonic-bliss music in our lives.
This is a statement.
Please.
Anyway, thanks a million, you showed me a whole new world of auditory sensations that I needed in my life.
SELL US YOUR SONGS !
Can we just take a minute to appreciate how beautiful your compositions are in these videos? Musicianship is off the charts!
@@j-man284 🙏🙏🙏
Another comment: while you focus mainly on tunings and scales, you are clearly into what I call "metric awareness". I mean, "metric awareness", for me, means one does not have to be stuck in 4/4. One can use whatever one needs for a given purpose. One day, it would be cool if you take us into your take on "metric awareness"... cheers
Funny you mention that! I'm not sure if you've seen it or not, but my last video was a giant rabbit hole deep dive into metrical thinking, and how humans detect and perceive beats and meter through things like spontaneous rhythmization and embodied music cognition! Love the topic!
Here's that video:
th-cam.com/video/TY9QuYNIxjo/w-d-xo.html
@@LeviMcClain yeah !! saw it!!! actually, i commented on it.. . I am a fan of "Skipping One" !! ( re: Gyroscope) cheers!
Another great video! Love the observation of vertical and horizontal approaches to music. I’ve never really considered that before.
Also, I Can’t read ‘icositritonic’ without thinking it’s an ingredient in a sports drink, haha!
tbh, I don't even know if I'm pronouncing it correctly 🤣
I wonder if anyone has used Nusecond in 31 before? It seems relatively common unpopular in 31 compared to say, orwell, or squares
I haven't, but I'll probably dabble around in it now! I came across the 1L 6s MOS before but haven't used it. I might mess around with it in 22edo where I can also use porcupine temperament, but looking into the 31edo version is equally as interesting.
@@YoVariableAfaik Nusecond is not supported by 22edo, it is however supported by a non-patent val 23edo, and probably by a non-patent val 15edo as well.
Thanks for the great vid. I admire the way you take care of the production of your music. Regarding Farya's rant: th-cam.com/video/LR511iAedYU/w-d-xo.html
Thanks! Farya is awesome, I'll check his video out soon!
@@LeviMcClain this one also highlights Farya's wisdom: th-cam.com/video/OMaYFUm8kQQ/w-d-xo.html
This is amazing! The way you you transform the theory into music is great, it holds ground perfectly without having to explain the theory. The amount of work that goes into this is astounding. Keep up the great work!
Thank you so much! It’s easy to get lost in the theory. I always make it a priority to poke my head out every once in a while and make sure I’m actually writing music with this stuff lol
New favourite video of yours. I think this might have been the clearest explanation of a 31 EDO scale I've seen so far (Xenharmonic wiki is very confusing if you aren't into the jargon), and holy moly was it an interesting one. I loved the compositions and especially how you showed how to sing over it. I can't imagine how wild it must be to practice that. Sounded amazing though.
Some constructive criticism, if it's ok:
1: I think having some kind of markers around the diesis wheel (or whatever it's called) where the approximations of the relevant intervals we know from 12 edo are would be helpful for those of us who aren't used to thinking in diesis steps yet: for example, I'm pretty sure from the video that the 31 edo approximation of the fifth is around the 18th diesis step. If that could be indicated with some kind of colour difference or writing or something, I think that would be helpful when talking about the fifth. Same goes for the major or minor third when talking about thirds in general.
2: I think maybe the detour into talking about Middle Eastern music and explaining how it differs in expression from Western music felt a little bit tagged on? I at least got a little bit lost in my focus there and there wasn't really a satisfying conclusion to it, like a composition based on heptanoic nunesecond like there was with the two other approaches. It was a good explanation though.
I get that it was pretty logical to talk about it when explaining the first tetrachord, but maybe it would have made more sense to tie it in when you were already talking about how the scale doesn't really conform to a home chord, and then you could pivot to how you might approach a scale (or melodic structure) that doesn't do that by showing how Middle Eastern music does it. Then you could show how the first tetrachord looks like uşşak/bayati/shur.
Anyway, I'm only saying these things because I really hope you do more like this. It was super inspiring to watch and made me really giddy to try and make some 31 edo music myself.
@@rasmusn.e.m1064 thank you! I love that idea for adding on relevant approximations for 12. I think that would be big help for everyone coming over from 12 ( in other words… everyone lol). Just gotta figure out how to do it in a way that’s not super cluttered.
So there may be some confusion to your second point, I did have an eastern composition based on nusecond! The first one around 3:19 was an eastern approach, and the altered nusecond was the western approach. Might have been better to tag the eastern composition closer to the explanation but I decided to do it that way for audience retention purposes. Clearly something wasn’t communicated well if you didn’t even notice that, my bad 😬
Gotta get this stuff out wide, but its also important to give each idea their due diligence, so structuring these videos is a balancing act.
I find that the conversations in western online microtonal spaces tend to either pretend that eastern music doesn’t exist, or claim that the microtonal stuff in the west has already been done for thousands of years in the east. There are problems with both of these perspectives, which was the subplot of this video that I wanted to begin to address. I began this video saying that we were going to examine the same idea through two different lenses of composition, eastern and western. I ended the video by doing exactly that while also coming to the conclusion that the scale falls into neither category and should be treated as it’s own thing. Still, I appreciate the feedback, I’ll try to be less tacked on in the future!!
@@LeviMcClain No problem, and I'm happy you found the input helpful. And yes, potential clutter is exactly the issue. Maybe making a quick aside to explain where a particular interval is and then just changing the colour would be most helpful in some instances, something like that. I bet you're better than me at figuring out the specifics of that.
I did notice that the first composition was "modal" though I didn't exactly notice the Middle Eastern vibe, and maybe that's just because I'm used to music from the Balkans where the horizontal approach is also really common, so the difference from "normal music" wasn't that obvious to me. Anyway, I should just have said what you did because that was what I meant; the reason the part about ME music felt tagged on to me was because it was disjointed from the first musical example with the horizontal approach, but I didn't want to say categorically that this needed to be the first part of the video, so that's why I didn't. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.
But yeah, I totally get that balancing act. I help teach kids who struggle with grammar exactly that, and it's really difficult to know for sure where to segue between two subjects, when to be explicit about abstract concepts, and when to let them learn the patterns through trial and error. There is no single right answer, and it often depends on the specific kids, how long ago lunch was, among other unpredictable factors :).
I am not familiar with Western online microtonal spaces, and, as you say, most people aren't, so I didn't quite catch the opposite side in your dialectic but it does sound like an interesting topic to dive into, and I'm sure Farya Faraji would have a field day with it. It makes sense that Orientalism would creep its way into that particular bubble, too; It seems like it's almost hyperpervasive, lol.
And yes, now your conclusion makes a lot more sense to me. It seems like the fact that we are stuck with the term 'scale' when describing functional subsets of notes in microtonal edo's is maybe a bit of an issue. Anyone got a better term?
Anyway, I really appreciated you taking your time to respond and what you do to expose more people to this stuff. Cheers :)
great video! nusecond is a cool one, especially nusecond[8]. one really interesting alteration of nusecond[8] is actually a modMOS with steps 3 4 3 4 4 5 4 4, notes P1 m2 s3 M3 S4 P5 M6 n7 P8, so it has a major sixth chord, 6:7:9:10:11, and 11th harmonic on the root. cool scale, with similar melodic properties to an equal octatonic scale. definitely hope you get bigger, would love to see more people getting into 31edo!
8:38 Ah, I hear this in Michael Harrison's work. That one jumped out at me. I'm only a casual microtonal listener
Never heard of him, I’ll have to check out his work!
@@LeviMcClain Please do. His album Revelation(s?) is so good. I've listened to the whole thing over a hundred times, was stuck on it for years
Where can I find more of this 31 EDO scales? I only know of the Mothra [6] thanks to Zhea Erose's video, but I would really like to check out more of this scales and it's variations
Couple of options for you:
The Xenharmonic Wiki can sometimes be a good resource for scales, however it's weighed down with so much technical theory speak and math that its hard to parse through it with a high degree of understanding unless you are well versed in the ins and outs of tuning theory.
I've got a couple videos: "I broke music theory" and "Discovering a NEW MODE Through This Microtonal Defect" which goes over some other neat 31 based scales. Zheanna has other great videos that go over different scales like that Mothra video as well.
Become a microtonalist on my Patreon! It grants you access to the Microtonalist Manual, a comprehensive theory guide I've put together containing an exhaustive chord/scale list in 31, tuning files, exclusive lectures, and other microtonal resources. Here's the link: www.patreon.com/LeviMcClain
You can also search for Scale Workshop 3 where you can build your own scales with the "Moment of symmetry" or MOS button, but you need to know some tuning theory if you're going to use it (it can get pretty confusing).
if you search for 31edo modes on the xenharmonic wiki, you’ll get a great list. for actual explanations, the external links on the 31edo xenharmonic wiki page may be a good place to start.
Muy interesante, ya que en Argentina siempre estuvo invisibilizado lo que no fuera cultura occidental. Espero con ansiedad poder acceder, en un tiempo no tan lejano, a instrumentos que me permitan explorarlo. Algo que no es tan fácil desde aquí con el sueldo de un docente. Gracias por brindar lo que para mi es nuevo conocimiento.
Puedes usar controladores MIDI para eso, VST gratuitos como el SurgeXT admiten afinaciones microtonales. Hay que dedicarle un poco a mapear las teclas del piano, pero es posible, así empecé yo a experimentar. O ya si hay más tiempo y dedicación es posible construir un controlador MIDI específico para que lo necesites, yo por ejemplo construí uno para tocar en 31 EDO acá en Colombia con el equivalente a unos 250 dólares en materiales y a punta de tutoriales de TH-cam
It's a nice tuning system, but the 12 tone equal temp is still the Jesus Christ's (and Krzysztof Pretkiewicz's) approved system, as to the fact how harmonic and consonant it is to itself.
i wanna try to use this scale but with the unstable approach
the unaltered version
Dooo it! Feel free to tag me in anything you make with it, I'd love to check it out
@@LeviMcClain :)
Yeah, you can use it as a chord scale or imply a fifth by just playing the root and the third.
if you use octatonic nusecond instead, you get a more even scale with two 6:7:10:11 chords in it, meaning a root with a subminor third, a major sixth, and neutral seventh. it’s an uncommon chord for sure, but it sounds good arpeggiated and occasionally as a full chord.
it's like completely different world
Astounding stuff! I really enjoy the comparison of Western microtonal theory to the music of other cultures - I feel those who are interested in the former often neglect that our interpretation of music is but one of many.
Thank you! This is precisely why I wanted to tackle nusecond like this
@@LeviMcClain Thanks so much for doing it! Really enlightening and you present it all in a very engaging way.
Another banger video! It would be cool if Nusecond temperament in 31edo also supported porcupine temperament, where 3 neutral seconds stack to a perfect 4th. Generators around 160¢-165¢ (compared to 155¢ in 31edo) are optimal for porcupine. If you want a really well-tuned perfect 5th and 4th, 29edo might pique your interest. One flaw of porcupine, however, is that the 6/5 minor third becomes sharper, typically around 320¢-330¢ (compared to the ideal ~316¢). If 31edo were to support porcupine temperament, we wouldn't have to build Icositritonic Nusecond[23] to have a well-tuned perfect 5th!
Nusecond is a Meantone extension. Where 9/8 = 10/9, 36/25 = 10/7 and 11/10 = 12/11.
In Porcupine we have 100/81 = 6/5, 8/7 = 9/8 and 10/9 = 11/10.
Supporting both temperaments at once would force 5/4 = 6/5 = 9/7 = 11/9, among other things. Most likely this would force our temperament to become 5edo.
@@henrikljungstrand2036Thanks for your comment! That’s a lot of tuning damage and it’s clear that tempering all of those intervals to the same note eventually leads to 5edo. I would say that stacking two generators of Porcupine makes this new interval function as 6/5, 100/81, *and* 11/9. Saying that this interval is 100/81 is a bit of a stretch, but I see your rationale. 10/9 = 11/10, so (10/9)^2 = 100/81. (11/10)^2 = 121/100, but since 10/9 = 11/10, (10/9)^2 = (11/10)^2, which means 100/81 = 121/100.
@@YoVariable Well, actually i found an error in my comment/calculation. Because Nusecond is not really a Meantone extension, i remembered it wrong. So it doesn't need to temper out 81/80 (setting 9/8 = 10/9), this is the case just in 31edo.
It is a Starling temperament (tempering out 126/125, thus setting (6/5)^2=36/25 = 10/7) and a Biyatismic temperament (tempering out 121/120, thus setting 11/10 = 12/11) however.
I think the Nusecond/Porcupine temperament you want may actually be realized in patent val 15edo, which is a bit better, but i have to return to this, to check that all the relevant commas are indeed tempered out (treated as unison 1/1).
Currently i am at my job now, so not much spare time. I truly apologize for my error.
@@YoVariable Checked it finally. A Nusecond Porcupine hybrid doesn't work in 5edo, but it does work in 8edo, using the 8d val. This is an 11-limit temperament that tempers 126/125, 121/120 and 99/98 (or 540/539) as undecimal Nusecond demands, and that also tempers 250/243 as pental Porcupine demands, although this is not septimal Porcupine, so it doesn't temper 64/63, and indeed uses an accurate 7/6 (7/6 "patent val") but a non-accurate 7/4 (not patent val, second best val instead). It does temper 100/99 however (an undecimal Porcupine comma), and thus also 50/49.
The alternative Nusecond Porcupine hybrid is 15edo. This tempers 250/243 and 64/63 as per septimal Porcupine, but only tempers 126/125 and 121/120, so it is per undecimal Nusecond minus the ordinary comma for 7-limit. In this 15edo version of Nusecond Porcupine, the neutral second represents 12/11 but not 49/45, and 9/7 and 14/11 are not tempered to each other. Instead of tempering out 99/98 it tempers out 100/99, so it is an undecimal Porcupine.
Trying to temper all of 126/125, 121/120, 99/98, 250/243 and 64/63 results in failure and we only get 0edo, the temperament with only one note and the unison interval, nothing else. So naive Nusecond Porcupine doesn't work.
If instead we only use the common commas of these two relaxed Nusecond Porcupine temperaments we get 11-limit 8d & 15 = 7d & 15, also known as Opossum temperament. This might be interesting to compose in.
I have carefully checked that i don't subconsciously assume Meantone i.e. 81/80 tempered out, or any other such silly mistake now.
You are welcome to check my calculations if you like, i think they are final now.
I think it’s neutral, however the reason it’s hard to say is because the 3rd to 5th interval is inversely proportional to the Root to 3rd. So flattening one of the stacked thirds Augments the other
Partly a critique and mostly a genuine question, why do we need to try to make the 31tet have a perfect fifth? If that’s in 12tet why not focus on the strengths 31 tet DOES have and make better scales with that instead of using 12edo as a base?
6:40 Okay, hop off of Yoshi, we're going inside the castle!
that bass is sick... I want one. the vocalist really sold that... not easy. as the owner of a custom-built 31-TET guitar and a Lumatone, I'm so down for this. great stuff.
Thank you! Ahhhh I’ve got to get my hands on a 31-TET bass! I’m sure it’s much more approachable than being hyper accurate on fretless
@@LeviMcClainMononeon played on a 31edo bass for a while. I don't remember if it was a custom build or what... this was a while back
I don't see why maqams should not be considered scales? To me, they are just not the kind of scales that may be considered modes of a single scale. And there is no free change of tonic in a single maqam scale. Rather, only the first tone of a particular jin may be considered a tonic. Only certain combinations of jins into maqams are considered valid. The maqams are still scales. Am i incorrect in something here?
maqamat are similar to scales, but the way they’re used in arabic music is very distinct from how we use scales in the western tradition. in 31edo, however, it can be helpful to translate them into scales and use them how we would any other scale. just know that this isn’t true to how they’re used traditionally.
@@alexr3912 Alright. Are you knowledgeable about maqamat in the Arabic tradition? Care to elucidate? I am not scared of long, detailed, technical explanations at all, i rather welcome meticulous clarity. Coming from the European tradition myself, yet i never liked the "circle of fifths", the note notation, atonal music, nor the limits of 12 tones per octave, and especially not the lack of good 5-limit and 7-limit intervals in 12edo. Music theory was for many years too hard for me to understand, because of the lack of rigorous mathematical explanation, as well as lack of close correspondence with reality regarding the "purity" of major and minor chords. Pythagorean tuning, the harmonic partials of wave frequencies, ad hoc just intonation adjustments, and especially the regular temperament paradigm and xenharmonic music theory gave me the clarity that was lacking earlier in European traditional music theory. I am a strong natural empath, and a very mathematical mind, with a great fondness for beautiful music, who will not however accept illogical or inauthentic explanations that are unfaithful to Truth.
@@henrikljungstrand2036i know some, but definitely not enough to do it justice, and it wouldn’t be perfect. indonesian, turkish, and arabic tuning systems are some of my favorites to look into, and i definitely recommend you do the same. most of what i do relates to 31edo, but world music is fascinating.
@@alexr3912 Yeah i agree. It is so mind opening and sometimes heart healing, to take part in the various musical traditions of the world, and get different perspectives on what music can be, compared to your own upbringing. And don't get me wrong, i absolutely love much of traditional European folk music, pagan or otherwise, Middle Ages and Renaissance music from Church, Chamber and Orchestra alike, and even much of modern Western music, especially that which is authentic rather than pretentious, that which is avantgarde and critical of commercialism, materialism, dogmatism, power abuse, hypocrisy and other societal problems, this includes music in traditional scales, certain just intonation scales, Meantone and yes 12 tone equal temperament as well, plus the ultra-modern xenharmonic music in such temperaments as Superpyth, Magic, Porcupine, Orwell, Bohlen-Pierce, Miracle etc in various equal and non-equal temperament tunings, plus extended just intonation in higher prime limits.
I am somewhat partial towards Persian music with their 17 note enharmonic/hyperchromatic scale (consisting of several dastgah), and their gentle tempered 3/2 fifths, where the 32/27 minor third is tempered into a 13/11 minor third (by tempering out the comma 352/351), which is split in two unequal 13/12 and 12/11 neutral seconds, and where furthermore the 81/64 major third is tempered into a 14/11 major third (by tempering out the 364/363 comma), from which we get the tempered 14/13 interval (by splitting off a 13/11 minor third), something inbetween a neutral second and a minor second, from which we get the 7/6, 8/7, 9/7 and 7/4 intervals. By tempering the 256/243 minor second into something inbetween a 21/20 and a 22/21 minor second (tempering out the 896/891, 5120/5103 and 441/440 commas), we further get the tempered 11/10 interval (a smallish major second), which in turn gives us the 6/5, 5/4, 10/9 and 9/5 intervals. 87edo would be an okay equal temperament for composing and performing Persian music, though more accurate Minthmic temperaments may be desired, such as 159edo or something alike.
I also very much like Indian music, with their 22 tone extended chromatic scale (12 classes with 2 pitches in each, except for the 2/1 "octave" and 3/2 "fifth" classes over the tonic, which contain but one pitch) of sruti in three sizes (about 9/8, 10/9 and 16/15 in size), which may be considered to temper out 2048/2025 (identifying the 45/32 and 64/45 tritones) in the 5-limit, and possibly also 4375/4374 or 245/243 in the 7-limit, dependent on the accuracy desired. Since Indian music is very JI purist, i would go for tempering out 4375/4374. 46edo is an okay equal temperament for composing and performing Indian music, though more accurate Diaschismic temperaments may be desired, such as 126edo.
@@henrikljungstrand2036 it’s true, trying to approximate other cultures’ music in an equal or regular temperament will always be an uphill battle, as they really just aren’t made for that. the use of super large EDOs like 159 is so specific and uncommon anyways that using one to approximate the tuning of another system doesn’t do much. it is a fun exercise though, to see how representative you can get, and i have praised more manageable EDOs like 41 for being able to represent music from many cultures on a very basic level, which is nice for western learners who’ll never be able to hear or appreciate the more specific tuning aspects of these other cultures.
Super cool video! (like all your videos)
It would also be nice to (instead of hacking the scale into a wester music theory) try to find its own moods and crazy dissonant harmonies.
For sure! I’m a big believer in “anything can sound good in the right context”. We could absolutely do some crazy cool things with nusecond’s dissonance, but that’s a whole other video in itself.
how does this video have ten times more views than likes
I like "hack it". Stick to a scale if you want... and if that scale doesn't have a perfect 5th that you want... who cares? If you play a fretless, or a ribbon, or a voice... play the 5th you want.
It’s all for the sake of the sound my friend!
I wonder if a song could be made that relies on the pure major tonal system for it's perfect major chords, and 31 EDO for the melody. I might give this a shot myself with some music.
this is a good idea, but unfortunately it has the same issue that most just intonation systems have. it’s hard to construct a scale with pure chords everywhere we’d want them, such as how standard JI major has a wolf chord on the ii. if you don’t constrict yourself to one scale, you’ll have to have notes in separate chords differing by a syntonic comma if you don’t want the tuning of the chords to drift up or down
@@alexr3912 I searched for a couple of examples and noticed just this. The chords are pure major starting on their root note, but when you have a bunch of them, they sound out of tune to each other, and it's jarring.
love your videos!
Thank you so much!
Levi mind blowing video. Thanks for sharing and I did get the impresdion of Eastern music from it. I love your compositions by the way. You are able to make what normally sounds out of tune and dissonant accessible to me.
Great videos, but sometimes I think your compositions are too interesting to be good for analysing the specific sounds of the different scales. Surely just noodling on a piano and sampling some of the predominant harmonics available would be better
Noooo, that would devalue the theory
I get what you’re saying, but to me that seems boring. I want to show what this stuff can do when pushed to its fullest form of expression. I want to encourage people to try this stuff for themselves by really selling it with the music. If you’re interested in analyzing the specific flavor of a temperament i’m showcasing, I suggest trying it out for yourself at home. I’m sure it’ll be a lot more beneficial than listening to me do the same thing in a video. Appreciate the comment!!
@@LeviMcClainJust subscribed because I LOVE your creative approach.
Hi! Thank you so much for shedding some light on microtonal theory. Can't get enough of 31 TET it's such a versatile and beautiful temperament, but it's not easy to make progress left alone with my feeble amount of talent and some confusing clues left on xenharmonic wiki. Please make more educational content about all this, I'm gonna lap up every sexcond of it. Cheers!
Watching you playing bass is depressing though, you're sadly too good to be inspiring. lol
((:
Such a unique and valuable content Levi , Thank you :) looking forward to see more of this.
An interesting and very unique fact about maqam saba in arabic music is that the 8th note (octave) the root but instead its b1 which release tension more than the root surprisingly!
The circle diagram reminds me of the roots of cyclotomic polynomials on the imaginary unit circle (see TheGrayCuber's videos). Wonder if we can classify scales with certain types of polynomials.
do a video on the cinder scale in 31
I love you videos about 31 EDO so much. I try to make microtonal Techno in 31 EDO. I have been working with microtonality for over a year. 31 EDO is really one of the most interesting sound systems. You really helped me understand the whole theory behind it. What I want to ask you: Is there actually a way to harmonize the microtones in 31 EDO with the normal twelve-tone scale?
10:31 ah yes, the violin ortogonale
Is there a webshop where I can buy your insane abominations? You often have short pieces, but I'd like the full versions. You are very enlightened. Envious!
I have already phound your website, but I'd like to purchase CD the old way.
Hm more to experiment with. So this scale of 4 31EDO steps until you get to the last interval is like the microtonal equivalent of Euclidean Rhythms. Which makes me ponder what other such “Euclidean” tunings bring about useful systems. Thanks for posting. Sorry my bad, not a Euclidean Rhythm as a tuning system. Still your proposed tuning system, opens the way for similar constructs of a series of equal steps, then the last step to make the octave a different step size. Also will experiment to hear what a Euclidean Rhythm of 31 divisions with 7 pulses would sound like, i.e. step sizes of 5,4,4,5,4,4,5 (sum=31). Some great fretless bass work there from you :) .
that suggested scale is actually similar to the arabic maqam Nairuz, which in 31edo is a mode of the more common maqam Rast. pretty cool scale
Finding it really hard to listen to the examples while you're talking over them...
By examples I hope you don’t mean the only two musical examples in this video that are completely uninterrupted at 3:20 and 10:11 😅😅😅
Putting the minor third and subminor third together while still diminished should be a little more stable in that its closer to the 5:6:7 from a 4:5:6:7 harmonic 7th chord, also you could have gone to the 8 note scale by doing 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3, if the small step was smaller itd be porcupine but this is something else im not sure the name of, but it should make some things more accessible for only 1 more note.. Also that sharp fifth can be stacked to make a neat 8 note scale called oneirotonic, as a temperament itd be A-team[8].
Oneirotonic gang
the 8-note is also cool because that 3-step semitone can be placed above the root to give you a sort of leading tone (that works because the scale doesn’t have a perfect fifth), and it also gives you a 6:7:10:11 chord on the root. also the 6:7:10:11 on the step below gives you an interesting option for a dominant chord
G wiz i came here for non et music, not bad victor wooten
@@akirathedog777 I mean… Bad Victor Wooten is still Victor Wooten, so I’ll take it 🤷♂️🤷♂️
@@LeviMcClain well if you want to be precise, the slapp triplets did sound like a 15 year old begginer trying his hand at bass
Im sure you can do better
@@akirathedog777 Remember this is a theory video and not a video about imitating Victor Wooten
@@akirathedog777it’s a theory video