I love how humble Penrose is at the end when he alludes to "those impossible triangles...like Escher." They're called Penrose triangles, named after and popularized and independently discovered by Penrose and his father.
I believe that Penrose is one of the greatest thinkers today. He did so many brilliant contributions to general relativity, but still he has bigger picture in mind. I admire him.
This is a brilliant and inspiring discussion. I love it when a scientist/mathematician such as Penrose admits there are mysteries about existence and consciousness. All too often these days so many physicists and philosophers are rather mindless materialists, and seem to lack the imagination and curiosity to face these enigmas. Perhaps there is a certain amount of mental pain involved to doing so. William James regarded the thought about "why there is something rather than nothing" as the darkest emotion evoking thought we humans can have. And the issue Penrose mentions of whether the mathematical world has an independent existence is in my opinion a real issue, but I would wager many contemporary particle physicists and cosmologists would not even understand it….or, if they did, would dismiss it as silly. Well, maybe these questions cannot be answered in any satisfactory way, but to me it is a source of wonder just to contemplate them. I am very glad there are people like Penrose.
All sensible scientists and philosophers admit that there are mysteries about existence and consciousness. When a post starts out like this, it is usually a prelude to some mystical mumbo jumbo involving supernatural entities... perhaps you were leading up to that, but didn't quite make it, but Platonic absolutes are certainly another step along the way.
This morning I was thinking about Monism & Dualism hoping for a third option. Here it is, Trialism, sprinkled with a little bit of humour to make it fun. Thank you, Sirs!💯
Makes sense. 1) We can see mathematics exists, even if it is not tangible. 2) We know we are conscious (cogito ergo sum). 3) We can see physical reality exists. Mathematics explains physical reality. Our brains are constructed by material reality. The consciousness which arises therein has access to mathematics. All three realities must exist independently of the other (or in their own right) in order for the other two to be coherently explainable.
funny that the interviewer says "Escher - like" impossible triangles, actually Penrose and his father made these triangles popular and escher took inspiration from them. It is also called "penrose-triangle"
Reality is merely an illusion, Albeit a very persistent one. -- Albert Einstein All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. -- Max Planck ( Noblest ) ________________________________________ What are the forces in the universe about which we have no knowledge, but that unite, does not discriminate against anyone and controls us all. (1) gravity (2) EGO (3) Darkness (4) fear (5) dream __________________________________________ force ? Slavery is a state controlled by the upper force. Excessive pressure of slavery creates a force that destroys this slavery. __________________________________________ Common force ? Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs. __________________________________________ But ' Miss' / sir principle is; I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. --- Max Planck ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs. Thinking and Imagination is a process that no rules apply to, and it is a state of consciousness of an endless singularity. Thinking is a process of changing ( as needed ) thinking of another thought. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti Imagination means creating images. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti Because; the Thought ( you are ) is not thinker. -- Eckhart tolle And; there can be no thinker without thought. -- Jiddu Krushnamurti __________________________________________ You are the consciousness of this infinite universe which is experiencing this body. Because; we cannot get behind consciousness. -- Max Planck ( Noblest ) The total number of minds in the universe is one; consciousness is a singularity phasing within all beings. -- Erwin schrodinger ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ Consciousness means infinite, unite and unchanable state; origin of everything. Because; consciousness never sleeps never changes. --- Walter Russell __________________________________________ We also need consciousness to talk to ourselves. between two Thoughts pure consciousness. -- Eckhart tolle __________________________________________ Now the question arises that even a single thought in the universe is not possible without consciousness. So where does the force for events like gravity, black holes, supernova originate from? _________________________________________ Max Planck says in reference to any event happening in the universe. All matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.. we must assume behind this force the existence of a Conscious and intelligent mind. --- Max Planck ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ He did not talk about any particular ( Aliens ) person, but according to the principles of quantum physics, he knows that such phenomena in creation are not possible without the desire of a concsious and intelligent mind. __________________________________________ Alien life is quite common in the universe. -- Stephen Hawking In the deepest sense the search for Extraterrestrial intelligence is a search for ourselves. -- Carl Sagan _________________________________________ Extinction is the rule, survival is the exception. -- Carl Sagan Epidemic Pandemic and Extension is part of our history. There is a lot of possibility of extinction of our earth within the next 60 days. The possibility of extinction is so strong that I never fully agreed to this statement in my entire life. __________________________________________ The Intelligent and Conscious ( Aliens ) Mind is responsible for this extinction, which is currently on Earth, putting full efforts to maintain the pandemic. But they are not getting the results like the previous pandemic in history. __________________________________________ Our core is consciousness. Therefore death has no meaning in creation. The history of our earth is thousands of millions of years old. We must create force to save it. Because all matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force. -- max Planck ( Noblest ) _______________________
I think you have it backwards. Penrose was inspired by his first encounter of Escher. He talks about this in an interview on Lawrence Krauss’s Origins podcast.
@@karagi101 Maybe. I know he was inspired by Escher but I was talking about the "penrose triangle" specifically. "It was first created by the Swedish artist Oscar Reutersvärd in 1934. Independently from Reutersvärd, the triangle was devised and popularized in the 1950s by psychiatrist Lionel Penrose and his son, prominent Nobel Prize-winning mathematician Sir Roger Penrose, who described it as "impossibility in its purest form". It is featured prominently in the works of artist M. C. Escher, whose earlier depictions of impossible objects partly inspired it."
The way I look at things is that there is a physical world, an abstract world, and a conscious world that bridges the other two worlds. With consciousness we can see things in the abstract world and reify them in the physical world.
Please check your TV schedule. Closer to Truth is broadcast on your local PBS / public television station. Here's a list you can refer to - www.closertotruth.com/about/tv-schedule
ZdenekJindra Where are you located? We can see if there's a broadcaster in your part of the world. Also, we will soon have individual episodes for digital purchase on iTunes and DVD sets with select episodes as well.
Closer ToTruth I am in the Czech Republic near Prague. The band can be readily auto-searched by TV sets and there is definitely no PBS. In fact, there is no other than Czech-speaking channels. And the only cable company has already repeatedly refused to lay cable to this house.
+zwz • zdenek WE don't need more simpletons but the super wealthy who are in control need unthinking productive units, and for the thinkers to channel their ideas into profits. Instead of thinking, they prefer we say "God dunnit" and then get on with working and breeding up new workers. There's definitely nothing like this on the free-to-air TV in Australia, and not much on Pay TV - a couple of channels that mostly repeat the same documentaries. Anyone who relies on TV for their info is not someone who is interested in existential matters. Some people need to face death, or have someone close to them face death, before they get interested in reality.
There once was a lady named Bright, Who traveled much faster than light, She started one day in a relative way, And returned on the previous night! What shape is the Universe in? The Universe is in Great Shape for an Old Universe!
Very surprising that Roger would paint matter, mind and mathematics as though they were separate realities. Mathematics describes a set of relationships within the physical world. The mere fact that it can be done independent of any material context does not mean that it is a separate reality. He says that at around 9:00, yet his language before that suggests something else. He also uses the term "kind of existence." That makes a bit more sense to me but I still don't see much value in the distinctions he seems to be drawing. The very framing of the question is problematic: "What Things Really Exist?" The first question could be "exist in what sense?"
sure it does! but I think I get what you mean... it is sad that people don't tend to feal mathematics! but I believe even though mathematics succeed in precision but eventually, it supersedes that to become a song in our heart.
When you add up fifth intervals you can't return to the original note; it's like music and art tell us that Truth whatever it is, is not perfection. Perfection is boring, predictable almost like death.
Blessings are there to understand the gift, they are not keys to the gift. I think for any of this to work the secrets will obviously be heavily guarded and never revealed. Yet, at the same time I don't consider blessings to be tricks either. They come from the real source no one is allowed to see, they are clues of something very real, not trying to hide it, but are gatekeeping it.
A great example of intellectual dilemma comments: eg "beginning of time" and "timelessness"; "the mind could not have constructed the universe because there was no physical reality at the beginning of time". Such dilemmas come from the relative mind trying to figure out non duality. Only contradiction appears, even for wonderful intellects like Sir Roger. Clear validation for those in the process of transcending the world of duality. Consciousness is infinite. Material reality ebbs and flows.
I think that reality, and especially duality, which seems to be a fundamental principle of reality, is paradox. Even Lao-tse describes this in his Tao-Te-King. The principle of nothingness is paradox: nothingness exists, but in it´s existence it doesn´t exist. It´s like the other side of the medal, which also can not have just one side. Both actually depend on each other, and also exist "forever", because something can not emerge from nothing, it has to be simultaneously.
This analysis is intimately connected to whether senses arise out of physical reality, or vice versa. Intutively, a camera can't see itself seeing. Why should brain?
Thanks for the discussion . However to be more comprehensive such concepts as subsist ( abatisthasti), tistati (exist) ,atiitisthati (overexist ) and adhi tisthati (superexist ) and such concepts as illusion (mayika) or shadow (chhaya ) or kaya (embodyment ) etc etc need to be discussed at length
Probably a unified understanding should overcome the apparent separation between observation (physical world), conceptualization (mathematics) and observer/conceptualizer (brain), as from this rise mysterious concepts like matter, universe and consciousness in the first place.
Roger Penrose is an excellent philosopher, independent from his other gifts in other fields. Maybe he is also good at slam dunking, making his native geniuses a trifecta.
Mathematical realism is probably the way to go in my opinion. What is astonishing and overlooked is that we live in a Universe described by mathematical equations, abstract relationships that arn't actually physical. Actually everything we use to describe the universe is actually physical, its thought, and ideas. It reminds me of a quote from Niels Bohr where he says "The thing we call real are described by things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasnt profoundly shocked you
I think that the explanation here is that there is a conserved quantity based on the principle that we consider only a part of the total realm of Nature, and that that part has been "educated" by the selection means provided by the principles that can be afforded the segment involved in our observation into enacting the processes of consciousness. Like the person seeing by use of his eyes to take in a landscape which is his main awareness while most of his substance contributes more indirectly to the act of seeing, the appreciation by minds of the universe, including appreciation of this sentance, is only the awareness inherent in the part of the universe that constitutes the mind's experience. The rest of the entire universe is participating indirectly in experience, for instance stochastic support by being the background for the anthropomorphic principle. The reason this is logical to believe is that there is the precedent of the evolutionary process on Earth, in which evolution sorted behavior of formerly inanimate matter, by sending some matter down into the inanimate while sending the other matter/behavior into a state enhanced by trial, untill there was the onset of aware matter. The phenominon of evolution is an example of the natural shaping processes which without any obvious intervention produced an apparent inequity that there is both the highly invested (with having a history of being luckier than the other), aware part of the universe, and the unaware background that is the rest of the universe, including all of the mathematical structures. Like the superspace of particles out of which is selected by physical evolution only the dimensions which are involved within particles in living things, The entirety of (let us call this) Nature is participating in awareness of this sentence.
Reality is merely an illusion, Albeit a very persistent one. -- Albert Einstein All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. -- Max Planck ( Noblest ) ________________________________________ What are the forces in the universe about which we have no knowledge, but that unite, does not discriminate against anyone and controls us all. (1) gravity (2) EGO (3) Darkness (4) fear (5) dream __________________________________________ force ? Slavery is a state controlled by the upper force. Excessive pressure of slavery creates a force that destroys this slavery. __________________________________________ Common force ? Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs. __________________________________________ But ' Miss' / sir principle is; I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. --- Max Planck ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs. Thinking and Imagination is a process that no rules apply to, and it is a state of consciousness of an endless singularity. Thinking is a process of changing ( as needed ) thinking of another thought. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti Imagination means creating images. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti Because; the Thought ( you are ) is not thinker. -- Eckhart tolle And; there can be no thinker without thought. -- Jiddu Krushnamurti __________________________________________ You are the consciousness of this infinite universe which is experiencing this body. Because; we cannot get behind consciousness. -- Max Planck ( Noblest ) The total number of minds in the universe is one; consciousness is a singularity phasing within all beings. -- Erwin schrodinger ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ Consciousness means infinite, unite and unchanable state; origin of everything. Because; consciousness never sleeps never changes. --- Walter Russell __________________________________________ We also need consciousness to talk to ourselves. between two Thoughts pure consciousness. -- Eckhart tolle __________________________________________ Now the question arises that even a single thought in the universe is not possible without consciousness. So where does the force for events like gravity, black holes, supernova originate from? _________________________________________ Max Planck says in reference to any event happening in the universe. All matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.. we must assume behind this force the existence of a Conscious and intelligent mind. --- Max Planck ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ He did not talk about any particular ( Aliens ) person, but according to the principles of quantum physics, he knows that such phenomena in creation are not possible without the desire of a concsious and intelligent mind. __________________________________________ Alien life is quite common in the universe. -- Stephen Hawking In the deepest sense the search for Extraterrestrial intelligence is a search for ourselves. -- Carl Sagan _________________________________________ Extinction is the rule, survival is the exception. -- Carl Sagan Epidemic Pandemic and Extension is part of our history. There is a lot of possibility of extinction of our earth within the next 60 days. The possibility of extinction is so strong that I never fully agreed to this statement in my entire life. __________________________________________ The Intelligent and Conscious ( Aliens ) Mind is responsible for this extinction, which is currently on Earth, putting full efforts to maintain the pandemic. But they are not getting the results like the previous pandemic in history. __________________________________________ Our core is consciousness. Therefore death has no meaning in creation. The history of our earth is thousands of millions of years old. We must create force to save it. Because all matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force. -- max Planck ( Noblest ) _______________________
+Neil McIntosh Really? Have you heard of Gauss or von Neumann? Or the hundreds of other great mathematicians? No, he almost certainly isn't, though some of the things he's done are very impressive nevertheless.
Martin Dinov Well I say Penrose because of his impressive list of accomplishments such as; Twistor theory Geometry of spacetime Cosmic censorship Weyl curvature hypothesis Penrose inequalities Penrose interpretation of Quantum Theory Orch-OR Moore-Penrose pseudoinverse Newman-Penrose formalism Penrose tiling Penrose stairs Penrose graphical notation Schrödinger-Newton equations Also not forgetting his numerous and notable awards such as; Adams Prize (1966) Heineman Prize (1971) Fellow of the Royal Society (1972) Eddington Medal (1975) Royal Medal (1985) Wolf Prize (1988) Dirac Medal (1989) Naylor Prize and Lectureship (1991) De Morgan Medal (2004) Copley Medal (2008)
+Neil McIntosh what has he done to escape the limits of his symbolic representation of the universe? Nothing. He cannot speak of true reality nor can anyone else because reality is not words.
I can't help hearing an echo of Lacan's Real (physical), Symbolic (mathematical) and Imaginary (mental). Are Penrose's three worlds and Lacan's three orders both reflexes of some more basic ideological distinction?
Isn't that great, it should humble scientists and give them even more drive, plus open them up to the possibility that they might be missing half the equation. Isn't it fascinating how so many of the greatest minds like Penrose, Dyson, etc... are so humble and can be honest about where we're really at in terms of discovery. Something, I think, that should be pondered a lot. Did the Royal Society, the greatest minds available at the time, once declare that man would never "fly" and what did we think about breaking the sound barrier... how many aircraft now mock the sound barrier?
Trialist, quadraphonics, five- ophonics, who knows, heh. At our most base we are all just Stardust and Energy formed by forces we are just beginning to understand. Every single thing on our rock comes from, and is a product of these forces. Some forces we label 'fundamental', some we still refuse to really acknowledge, yet what do we really know? Did not once all the greatest minds at the 'Royal Society' once declare 'man shall never achieve flight"? What did we once think about the 'Sound Barrier'?? Yet modern jets routinely mock said sound barrier now. Hmmm. We are 'of' this Earth, we are 'of' the Animal Kingdom, yet have, partially anyway, risen above it. What does that imply, what responsibilities might such a situation impart upon us? Are we meant to be shepherds of ourselves, of our common good, or are we 'rats in a barrel'? What could such a question mean for the future of our human race and our world that currently, apparently, is currently under siege by a few amongst the many who seemingly believe they know what's best and are busy trying to construct a world that represents their view? Is Animal Farm as relevant as Enlightened thought and writing or are we just a reflection of Camus and Metamorphosis? How is our gold spent? How do we put an end to ridiculous research that is in every budget? How do we free the Scientific Community and other dedicated open minded communities from, as much as possible, the overbearing and suffocating affects of politics? How do we instill the moral to stop already illegal research that leads to Covid and worse? How do we slow AI until we are more responsible? So much work to be done. Shackleton-.perseverance, determination, courage, a refusal to quit against all odds? Hmmmm. Great short, thanks for posting it.
Logic does have its limits, I will grant that. There are a panoply of paradoxes in pure and applied logic. A canonical case in point of the latter being Gödel's first incompleteness theorem. But it is hard to deny the rational or Leibnizian character of existence.
I ask if mathematics could exist without us. I think of it as there being things that have no existence but we can give them existence because it shares the existence of our lives.
This is one hypothesis that addresses all 3 mysteries: Fundamentally the universe is composed of many independent, heterogeneous (varying number of internal states, information processing rates and connective abilities) but connected conscious entities. Connections between them are initially random or individually caused but eventually come to be consciously modified by consensus among connected entities. Each entity experiences different connection states as different qualia. Qualia can vary greatly between entities and no direct communication of one's qualia are possible to another entity. Therefore some common language is required if they are to maintain or modify their mutual connections and the only substrate for that language are the connections themselves. Counts of qualia are available as a common language even if each entity learns to identify the same connection pattern in different ways. Maths therefore emerges as the means to agree mutual connections when the only view of those connections available is the first person via unique qualia. So the physhcal laws naturally evolve via evolution of mathematics as a shared language and so when we come to try to decode the laws of physics from our high level but nonetheless 1st person perspective on the universe we use various forms of the same language we and other fundamental entities use to generate the universe in the first place. Maths is 'unreasonsbly effective' because it is the underlying fundamental method of organisation. Consciousness is universal and fundamental but its exact nature from the first person depends on the exact connections each entity is involved with. Hence our particular conscious experience is so closely tied to the underlying fundamental connection from which our brain emerges. I.e. our consciousness doesn't emerge from what we can perceive from our 1st person view of the brain as we see it from outside. Rather that brain structure and function emerges from the underlying conscious decisions of a multitude of fundamental entities of which we are only one such entity with one specific connection pattern commensurate with our particular intetnal capabilities. The physical universe apparently ruled by deterministic laws and apparently fundamental is actually ruled by evolving but mutually agreed language conventions and emerges from the application of that language to the changing connections between fundamental entities. Im not saying this is correct, it's just an idea. I have no special knowledge of the inmer workings of the universe as a whole 😂
A lot of the mystery around mathematics comes from the artificial distinction we make between quality and quantity, a distinction that does not exist in the real world.
5 ปีที่แล้ว
If we're only matter, what's the difference between a dead person and a sleeping person? Sleep and death can't be the same except from the metaphorical visual, which is very unspoken and really eternal. Math doesn't just involve physics; it also to me refers to voids from creations since we're experiencing colors and lights for our reason. Brain activity is often eternal since we may or may not have the instincts realized through prejudice and judgement.
This only proves that even with the smartest people, the question of "what really exists?" always devolves into a discussion that revolves around semantics, that has no real purpose or importance at all.
This is an interesting and sophisticated version of the so called fine tuning problem. It’s a semantic game based on some logical wrong turns. Minds emerge from neurobiology, mathematics emerges from minds. The universe was in process long before minds emerged to observe it and even longer before those minds developed languages like mathematics to try to describe, understand and explain those processes. I guess it’s yet another example of a genius being really excellent at certain things and not so much at others?
But we have no idea how minds emmerge, mathematics seem to be discovered not developed, and we still don't know if a tree falling when no one is there to observe it makes a sound
@@Weaverine Those are a version of argument from ignorance, or god of the gaps approach. Math is developed, (as is science) out of interacting with and seeking to make sense of the world (and cosmos) around us. We discover accurate descriptions of what is and how it functions and those can be expressed in the languages we develop. Not knowing the mechanism whereby minds emerge doesn't negate the massive body of scientific knowledge around how the phenomena we recognize as constituting minds correlate with brain function and evolution. Do you know if the light inside your fridge turns off when you close the door-or is that also a deep freshman philosophy epistemological MYSTERY?
@@JAYDUBYAH29 Also the fact that we're discussing the limits of knowledge with the does a tree falling in the woods thing, and then you think you're smarted than Roger Penrose because you watched some Sam Harris/ Hitchens whatever, and are displaying massive example of the Dunning Kruger effect, that irony isn't lost on me
@@Weaverine Oh this is precious! thank for the chuckle, I might print this up and frame it! So good. Merry Xmas-and may your tree make no sound when it falls.
No one has claimed math is a metaphor. Mathematics is a special language for expressing quantity, relationships and behavior in nature. I didn't say mathematics was the same as a traditional spoken language which you assumed. Regarding "change," that really isn't a point. "and" means "and" always, "a" means "a" always. "c" stands for the speed of light always. We are free to change the notation at any time if it become convenient to do so.
Ask three questions from yourself after waking from a dream. 1. The observer of my dream was conscious or unconscious? 2. The observer of my dream was in my dream or in the universe? 3. Is the observer of my dream still conscious? If so then where? Answers of these questions will enable us to understand that Consciousness alone exists.
Imagination - Process of Pure Creation The process of creation starts with thought - an idea, conception, visualization. Everything you see was once someone's idea. Nothing exists in your world that did not first exist as pure thought. This is true of the universe as well. Thought is the first level of creation. Next comes the word. Everything you say is a thought expressed. It is creative and sends forth creative energy into the universe. Words are more dynamic (thus, some might say more creative) than thought, because words are a different level of vibration from thought. They disrupt (change, alter, affect) the universe with greater impact. Words are the second level of creation. Next comes action. Actions are words moving. Words are thoughts expressed. Thoughts are ideas formed. Ideas are energies come together. Energies are forces released. Forces are elements existent. Elements are particles of God, portions of ALL, the stuff of everything. The beginning is God. The end is action. Action is God creating - or God experienced. Hang on. There's one thing more I have to tell you. You are always seeing what by your terms you would define as the "past," even when you are looking at what is right in front of you. I am? It is impossible to see The Present. The Present "happens," then turns into a burst of light, formed by energy dispersing, and that light reaches your receptors, your eyes, and it takes time for it to do that. All the while the light is reaching you, life is going on, moving forward. The next event is happening while the light from the last event is reaching you. The energy burst reaches your eyes, your receptors send that signal to your brain, which interprets the data and tells you what you are seeing. Yet that is not what is now in front of you at all. It is what you think you are seeing. That is, you are thinking about what you have seen, telling yourself what it is, and deciding what you are going to call it, while what is happening "now" is preceding your process, and awaiting it. To put this simply, I am always one step ahead of you. My God, this is unbelievable. Now listen. The more distance you place between your Self and the physical location of any event, the further into the "past" that event recedes. Place yourself a few light-years back, and what you are looking at happened very, very long ago, indeed. Yet it did not happen "long ago." It is merely physical distance which has created the illusion of "time," and allowed you to experience your Self as being both "here, now" all the while you are being "there, then"! One day you will see that what you call time and space are the same thing. Then you will see that everything is happening right here, right now. This is....this is....wild. I mean, I don't know what to make of all this. When you understand what I have told you, you will understand that nothing you see is real. You are seeing the image of what was once an event, yet even that image, that energy burst, is something you are interpreting. Your personal interpretation of that image is called your image-ination. And you can use your imagination to create anything. Because - and here is the greatest secret of all - your image-ination works both ways. Please? You not only interpret energy, you create it. Imagination is a function of your mind, which is one-third of your three-part being. In your mind you image something, and it begins to take physical form. The longer you image it (and the more OF you who image it), the more physical that form becomes, until the increasing energy you have given it literally bursts into light, flashing an image of itself into what you call your reality. You then "see" the image, and once again decide what it is. Thus, the cycle continues. This is what I have called The Process. This is what YOU ARE. You ARE this Process. This is what I have meant when I have said, you are both the Creator and the Created. I have now brought it all together for you. We are concluding this dialogue, and I have explained to you the mechanics of the universe, the secret of all life. Okay. Now as energy coalesced, it becomes, as I said, very concentrated. But the further one moves from the point of this concentration, the more dissipated the energy becomes. The "air becomes thinner." The aura fades. The energy never completely disappears, because it cannot. It is the stuff of which everything is made. It's All There Is. Yet it can become very, very thin, very subtle - almost "not there." Then, in another place (read that, another part of Itself) it can again coalesce, once more "clumping together" to form what you call matter, and what "looks like" a discreet unit. Now the two units appear separate from each other, and in truth there is no separation at all. This is, in very, very simple and elementary terms, the explanation behind the whole physical universe. Wow. But can it be true? How do I know I haven't just made this all up? Your scientists are already discovering that the building blocks of all of life are the same. They brought back rocks from the moon and found the same stuff they find in trees. They take apart a tree and find the same stuff they find in you. I tell you this: We are all the same stuff. (I and the Father are One Energy) We are the same energy, coalesced, compressed in different ways to create different forms and different matter. Nothing "matters" in and of itself. That is, nothing can become matter all by itself. Jesus said, "Without the Father, I am nothing." The Father of all is pure thought. This is the energy of life. This is what you have chosen to call Absolute Love. This is the God and the Goddess, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. It is the All-in-All, the Unmoved Mover, the Prime Source. It is that which you have sought to understand from the beginning of time. The Great Mystery, the Endless Enigma, the Eternal Truth. There is only One of Us, and so, it is THAT WHICH YOU ARE.
[Human Consciousness, Truth, Reality, and Physical World] In order for us to properly talk about reality, we need to understand correctly about what both the facts and reality are and what the relationship between them is, and how humans’ perception and understanding occur. Truth is a logic that is always right regardless of the physical world, fact refers to the phenomenon or change in the physical world, and reality means that truth appears as a fact through matter. In human consciousness, three parties are involved: human (observer), target object and intermediate information conveyor. In order for human perception and understanding to be completely correct, all of these must be complete. Complete is normal and imperfect is abnormal. First of all, the observer, the conscious person, must be complete. The observer must be able to properly interpret and judge the given information. If he is incomplete, no matter how much the object provides enough information and the information carrier completely convey the information, the object cannot be correctly recognized and understood. But basically human is imperfect in physical existence and ability. Human perception-understanding functions are sometimes very inaccurate and may malfunction. The ability of the five senses is so limited. The base information and knowledge for the interpretation of the given information may be scarce or distorted. Sometimes the brain cannot properly handle the given information, can construct illogical things at random or distorts what it is. The brain can also be disturbed by the body and peripheral circumstances that prevent it from concentrating on the object. The way in which humans are maximally perfected is to improve their own abilities through education or training and/or to raise the lack of senses and judgment ability through the help of the tools. In judging the information given from the object, it is necessary not to be disturbed by concentrating to the utmost and not to be distorted by influence of his desire, minimizing the deviation from the greed and self-center. Even if the conscious person is perfect, the intermediate communicator may be incomplete. A delay or distortion may occur on the way of information transmission about the object. The physical world is an imperfect world with many limitations and conditions. It takes time to transmit the information and limits the power at the distance and distort it by the noise. The object must also provide sufficient information. The object may not give enough information or may be changing continuously. Some materials, such as black holes or dark energy, do not give information to the outside at all. In particular, the problem may occur as uncertainty in the micro-physical world when energy is on the process of accumulating to particles. The object that is not physical existence but pure logic, is not related to the communicator. This is the reason why it is possible for the brain of the best state to do the truth without physical interference. Since the truth is always right without being constrained by the conditions of the physical space and time, if problem does not arise in the human brain to recognize, it can be clearly realized. (That is, because the truth remains the same everywhere all the time, it can be confirmed right wherever any time the perceiver's brain works properly.) But in the case that the object is physical, human consciousness, fact and reality are interdependent each other because those three are tied together by the physical world. The physical fact and reality that have already occurred will keep themselves without disappearing or changing, but when they become the objectives of human perception and understanding, they will become related to all three parties, being affected by identity imperfection, continuous change and inter-connectivity of the physical world. The way to grasp the facts and reality that happened in the past is to keep track of the changes of the physical world through the laws of physics. At this time, it is necessary to make sure the physical identity of the object and the conditions of the transmission media. The logic of backtracking is made through unchanging truth hidden in the laws of physics (eg mathematical logic). (Keep in mind that no backtracking is possible unless absolute truths that do not change are not backed up.) Therefore, the first problem in physical facts and reality is the precise identification of the existence of the material. For example, if the motion or change of a particle is the subject of understanding, a clear identity determination of the physical presence of the particle is required. If the identity of the particle is unclear, it is impossible to tell the facts and reality about its movement or change accurately. This is related to how fine the particle changes in the micro-world. Currently the smallest size for this is known as the Planck size (Planck length: meters, Planck time: seconds). Particles, however, exhibit uncertainty of existence and wave-particle duality and quantum entanglement phenomena centering on this size. (I believe that this size is the smallest particle in matter and is made by the balance between the energy viscosity and the diffusing force of vacuum, while occurring at the mapping of the finite amount of energy to unlimited depth and size of vacuum.) In addition, from the viewpoint of information transmission about the object, the memory of the transmitted information and the propagation conditions such as delay by the electromagnetic wave (or light) propagated at a finite speed of 300,000Km/sec and the distortion due to noise in the physical space that is bent while being influenced by gravity, become the considerations. Furthermore, conscious person can affect the objects by changing the energy field when thinking in the brain or looking through light. For these reasons, recognition and understanding of physical objects cannot but include delay and error rates, and they cannot escape subjectivity and relativity according to each party in the pursuit of common objective perceptions and understandings. As such, consciousness and reality in human beings are related to that the physical world is finite, incomplete, imperfect, ever-changing, temporal, and relative as the secondary world, and the world of truth is perfect, never-changing, always right, permanent, and absolute as the original world, while being opposed to the physical world. Also, consciousness and reality are related to that truth manifests itself whenever and wherever while being hidden in the changes and laws of the physical world, and that those who do the truth live as being worthy and without question and shake in life as they realize the truths. The way to approach perfection in human perception and comprehension is to maximally deviate or compensate for the physical constraints of all three parties of the physical worlds. Those who do absolute truth are not limited to the finiteness and not drawn to the chaos of change, transcending the imperfect physical world, but are always in a free and peaceful state transcending bodily death. OnCharm Lee (Author of the Book "Humans, God, and Truth - Human Life is the Awakening Process")
Empirical reality doesn't need our math or our minds to exist. Math and our minds are just how we understand the world, and math only explains a sliver of things we know
would prime numbers exist outside our universe or in other universes? do they have to match reality of universe where they are observed or not? can we have a math system where 1+1 = 3 and match rules of physic of other universes?
Yes, you can have a separate universe where the mathematical principles of that universe are different than the one you are currently in. Yes you can have it set different and achieve the same outputs. Don't ask me how to do it though, inventing a new math sounds tedious as f*ck. Probably at least 10 trillion tests before you can get it off the ground and running, not to mention it would be impossible to conceptualize within the confines of this universe. We can't change math principles when the universe is operating off of them. If you wanted to make an equation to show this relationship you probably could, but you just can't actually do it. Your gonna have to use imaginary numbers to do it equation form anyways. At that point it just becomes an unprovable paradox of thought masturbation. But who am I to say that greater discoveries won't be made one day. I'm not so sure the mathematical principles of this universe are constant anyways and we can't prove what enters and exits your mind when you fall asleep. It could be changing everyday for all I know, actually seems more believable when you say it out loud than what is traditionally taught. I'm not so sure schrodingers cat is just a thought experiment, and that it doesn't have more tangible implications to how our world functions. It sure feels like when I shut my door, the energy outside is gone, completely shut off. I try not to think about the last one, it's making me increasingly claustrophobic. I'm afraid to get in elevators now or somehow get accidentally locked in a mudroom. I think it only makes sense. In a video game when you walk in a room the rest of the map doesn't continue generating itself. It's just you and the room is all that exists. I guess that is the main theory now is that things generate whenever we look at them, but what if you got stuck?
@@laughattack1204 sometimes i think that it is easier a universe where only exist my mind and a IA universe generator. instead of an infinite galaxies. other people are just generated by IA? maybe
I take Pi as evidence that the universe doesn’t obey mathematics, rather maths approximate the universe. Pi is, after all, an irrational number. You will never get a correct answer for the circumference of a circle by multiplying its diameter by Pi, only increasingly precise estimates based on the number of decimal places to which pi has been calculated.
Reality is merely an illusion, Albeit a very persistent one. -- Albert Einstein All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force. -- Max Planck ( Noblest ) ________________________________________ What are the forces in the universe about which we have no knowledge, but that unite, does not discriminate against anyone and controls us all. (1) gravity (2) EGO (3) Darkness (4) fear (5) dream __________________________________________ force ? Slavery is a state controlled by the upper force. Excessive pressure of slavery creates a force that destroys this slavery. __________________________________________ Common force ? Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs. __________________________________________ But ' Miss' / sir principle is; I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. --- Max Planck ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs. Thinking and Imagination is a process that no rules apply to, and it is a state of consciousness of an endless singularity. Thinking is a process of changing ( as needed ) thinking of another thought. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti Imagination means creating images. -- Jiddu Krishnamurti Because; the Thought ( you are ) is not thinker. -- Eckhart tolle And; there can be no thinker without thought. -- Jiddu Krushnamurti __________________________________________ You are the consciousness of this infinite universe which is experiencing this body. Because; we cannot get behind consciousness. -- Max Planck ( Noblest ) The total number of minds in the universe is one; consciousness is a singularity phasing within all beings. -- Erwin schrodinger ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ Consciousness means infinite, unite and unchanable state; origin of everything. Because; consciousness never sleeps never changes. --- Walter Russell __________________________________________ We also need consciousness to talk to ourselves. between two Thoughts pure consciousness. -- Eckhart tolle __________________________________________ Now the question arises that even a single thought in the universe is not possible without consciousness. So where does the force for events like gravity, black holes, supernova originate from? _________________________________________ Max Planck says in reference to any event happening in the universe. All matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.. we must assume behind this force the existence of a Conscious and intelligent mind. --- Max Planck ( Noblest ) __________________________________________ He did not talk about any particular ( Aliens ) person, but according to the principles of quantum physics, he knows that such phenomena in creation are not possible without the desire of a concsious and intelligent mind. __________________________________________ Alien life is quite common in the universe. -- Stephen Hawking In the deepest sense the search for Extraterrestrial intelligence is a search for ourselves. -- Carl Sagan _________________________________________ Extinction is the rule, survival is the exception. -- Carl Sagan Epidemic Pandemic and Extension is part of our history. There is a lot of possibility of extinction of our earth within the next 60 days. The possibility of extinction is so strong that I never fully agreed to this statement in my entire life. __________________________________________ The Intelligent and Conscious ( Aliens ) Mind is responsible for this extinction, which is currently on Earth, putting full efforts to maintain the pandemic. But they are not getting the results like the previous pandemic in history. __________________________________________ Our core is consciousness. Therefore death has no meaning in creation. The history of our earth is thousands of millions of years old. We must create force to save it. Because all matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force. -- max Planck ( Noblest ) _______________________
You are the eyes through which Creation sees itself. When you wake up from a dream, you realize that everything in the dream was you. You were creating it. It's no different in what we call "real life". Each and every person is you. The one consciousness looking through every eye, under every rock, within every particle. ~ Excerpt from the documentary "Inner Worlds, Outer Worlds", by Daniel Schmidt I am the other you. We Are All One. #SacredGeometry #UniversalGeometry #LanguageOfLight #Mathematics #UniversalMathematics #Math #Philosophy #Art #Geometry #Symmetry #Fractals #Cycles #Universe #Harmony #Vibration #Frequency #Energy #Hermeticism #Life #Manifestation #Alchemy #SpiritualScience #UnifiedScience #Consciousness #Education #Knowledge
The Eternal Soul - The Spirit of God I mean, no soul has regrets that the current physical form is changing; is about to "die"? The body never "dies," but merely changes form with the soul. Yet I understand your meaning, so for now I use the vocabulary you have established. If you have a clear understanding of what you wish to create with regard to what you have chosen to call the afterlife, or if you have a clear set of beliefs that support an after-death experience of reuniting with God, then, no, the soul never, ever has regrets over what you call death. Death in that instance is a glorious moment; a wonderful experience. Now the soul can return to it's natural form; it's normal state. There is an incredible lightness; a sense of total freedom; a limitlessness. And an awareness of Oneness that is at once blissful and sublime. It is not possible for the soul to regret such a shift. You're saying, then, that death is a happy experience? For the soul that wishes it to be, yes, always. Well, if the soul wants out of the body so bad, why doesn't it just leave it? Why is it hanging around? I did not say the soul "wants out of the body," I said the soul is joyful when it is out. Those are two different things. You can be happy doing one thing, and happy then doing another. The fact that you are joyful doing the second does not mean you were unhappy doing the first. The soul is not unhappy being in the body. Quite to the contrary, the soul is pleased to be you in your present form. That does not preclude the possibility that the soul might be equally pleased to be disconnected from it. Why is there such a delay between thought and creation before we die, and no delay at all after we die? Because you are working within the illusion of time. There is no delay between thought and creation away from the body, because you are also away from the parameter of time. In other words, as You have said so often, time does not exist. Not as you understand it. The phenomenon of "time" is really a function of perspective. Why does it exist while we are in the body? You have caused it to be moving into, by assuming, your present perspective. You use this perspective as a tool with which you can explore and examine your experiences much more fully, by separating them into individual pieces, rather than a single occurrence. Life is a single occurrence, an event in the cosmos that is happening right now. All of it is happening. Everywhere. There is no "time" but now. There is no "place" but here. Here and now is All There Is. Yet you choose to experience the magnificence of here and now in its every detail, and to experience your Divine Self as the here and now Creator of that reality. There were only two ways - two fields of experience - in which you could do that. Time and space. So magnificent was this thought that you literally exploded with delight! In that explosion of delight was created space between the parts of you, and the time it took to move from one part of yourself to another. In this way you literally tore your Self apart to look at the pieces of you. You might say that you were so happy you "fell to pieces." You been picking up the pieces ever since. That's all my life is! I'm just putting together the pieces, trying to see if they make any sense. And it is through the device called time that you have managed to separate the pieces, to divide the indivisible, thus to see it and experience it more fully, as you are creating it. Even as you look at a solid object through a microscope, seeing that it is not solid at all, but actually a conglomeration of a million different effects - different things all happening at once and thus creating the larger effect - so, too, do you use time as the microscope of your soul. Consider the Parable of the Rock. Once there was a Rock, filled with countless atoms, protons, neutrons and subatomic particles of matter. These particles were racing around continually, in a pattern, each particle going from "here" to "there," and taking "time" to do so, yet going so fast that the Rock itself seemed to move not at all. It just was. There it lay, drinking in the sun, soaking up the rain, and moving not at all. "What is this, inside of me, that is moving?" the Rock asked. "It is You," said a Voice from Afar. "Me?" replied the Rock. "Why, that is impossible. I am not moving at all. Anyone can see that." "Yes, from a distance," the Voice agreed. "From way over here you look as if you are solid, still, not moving. But when I come closer - when I look very closely at what is actually happening - I see that everything that comprises What You Are is moving. It is moving at incredible speed through time and space in a particular pattern which creates You as the thing called 'Rock.' "And so, you are like magic! You are moving and not moving at the same time." "But," asked the Rock, "which, then, is the illusion? The Oneness, the stillness, of the Rock, or the separateness and the movement of its parts?" To which the Voice replied, "Which, then, is the illusion? The Oneness, the stillness, of God? Or the separateness and movement of its parts?" And I tell you this: Upon this Rock, I will build My church. For this is the Rock of Ages. This is the eternal truth that leaves no stone unturned. I have explained it all for you here, in this little story. This is The Cosmology. Life is a series of minute, incredibly rapid movements. These movements do not affect at all the immobility and the Beingness of Everything That Is. Yet, just as with the atoms of the rock, it is the movement which is creating the stillness, right before your eyes. From a distance, there is no separateness. There cannot be, for All That Is is All There Is, and there is nothing else. I am the Unmovrd Mover. From the limited perspective with which you view All That Is, you see yourself as separate and apart, not one immovable being, but many, many beings, constantly in motion. Both observations are accurate. Both realities are "real." And when I "die," I don't die at all, but simply shift into awareness of the macrocosm - where there is no "time" or "space," now and then, before and after. Precisely. You've got it.
Free will is not free will to change events OUT THERE....all things will have happened....But you can come out of it with come free will over your own emotions and acceptance....In the end....you come out of it just as previously determined....but with a different mind.
It is all there. To be there it has to have a network of parts that work in pattern. We are part of that pattern and we are the only mental pattern that tries to study and understand the pattern itself. Our evolutionary pattern enabled us to adopt our own way of approaching the workings of a pattern that already exists. We are just in the infancy period of attempting to grasp the reality. Depending on how universal our attempt to understand the universe is, it is possible that we are at a stage where we can't continue any further. Is our choice going to face a gridlock? The trouble is we don't have the capacity to know that unless another evolutionary path directs the coming generation a better way, which I think is in itself a gridlock for us.
Wouldn't it be correct to say that mathematics is a description of certain things? I think there tends to be this over complication in our perception of mathematics. It's not a separate thing it is the thing that it's describing. Sorry if I'm being not completely clear.
One might also add logical existence to Penrose's triadic list if one supposes that mathematical existence is a universal totality then this Platonic totality is itself a logical obj. or proper class consisting of a union of all logically consistent sets.
I like his talk. Very interesting. But i also think that the brain uses just a smart algorithm to understand objects which cannot be expressed in first order logic. Therefore it is (in my humble opinion) no Mystery that we can understand the set of all natural numbers or other holdingproblem-like situations. I think Intuition just tricks us in believing that we know something which cannot be known for sure. Altough i would have no problem if he proofes me wrong.
He is missing it regarding mathematics existing. It hinges on the question, "Is mathematics discovered or invented." Had humans not created mathematical notation which is just a vocabulary for expressing relationships of the physical world, then mathematics would not exist. The laws, theorems, relationships, symmetries and so on would exist, but not the mathematics. That's just an invented language.
Talks of "the universe was there before consciousness" doesn't take into consideration that maybe the Universe is timeless? And that time is irrelevant on some basic level? Maybe its time we move from bottom up to a top bottom approach on some questions?
I disagree. Subjectivity is merely objective things in the context of something else, or someone else. Objective things as filtered through human beings become emotions like love, and the subjective seem different merely because of the lack of understanding for the point of view we experience, what it truly means to be a conscious being.
I tend to agree with Mr. Penrose about the pre-existence of mathematics in some way. The laws of nature are rules and rules is a mental concept itself since it involves choice. If the Universe came out of nothing then how did nothing know to apply any rules at all if there wasn't any rules before that? The question "why is there something rather then nothing" could sound like "why are there any rules rather than no rules at all'? But a lot of scientists today seem to mix nothing with something at all times (or purposely ignore the problem), saying that nothing is in fact a field or a state with its own characteristics etc. I find it very annoying and lazy. I would ask then "why is there something in that nothing rather then nothing at all"?
If we're allowed to imagine a multiverse, then physical law, however simple we can make it in the coming years, is not a 'law' per say, but rather an effect of its own environmental surroundings, 'pushing away' the mystery of its existence and specificity to a greater mystery--maybe the reason gravity is so weak for us is our proximity, or however imagined, to a dense field of it somewhere outside the Universe, maybe "all around" the Universe, causing it to expand toward it... I don't know how we can ever know what's beyond the observable Universe, though I guess we shouldn't say we know everything to discourage ourselves... if we theorize about things that make their existence from other universes known to us, maybe dark matter or energy being two such things, we may be able to know what drives the whole of it. Could science become as extremely far from a new kind of gathering of evidence for a multiverse as religion is from science today? Would a new science, figuring out in some ultra-direct way, say, that negates the importance of old methods of observation and experimentation, be as viciously assaulted by science? I think honest scientists would hop on board if amazing things were to come of such a new method, but there would be, by that time, incredible interests in keeping old ways, maybe even the same interests at stake as with religion (control of population, debate over morality/ethics of practicing 'new science', etc.) It's hard for me even to imagine that observation based on cause and effect and mathematics, and ultimately simpler logic might one day be shown to be more or less a 'story' we've allowed ourselves in crude observation of one small part of EVERYTHING, but it might one day happen. I'd definitely opt for a greater truth at that point--you won't see me clinging to something that doesn't apply to a new, broader landscape, where Newton and Einstein might seem to be as superficial to our satisfaction of reality as an old book is...
IMMHO, Platonism is the very problem: mathematics is a language, it is inductively established, and just potentially it is "all there"... and, there we have our bridge! Then, as for the mysterious effectiveness of mathematics, I would rather object that our understanding of the material world, and all the more so any formalisation of that understanding, is one thing, a different thing is the material world in itself. Namely, that effectiveness is just illusory, totally internal to the theory: it is the effectiveness of the observer observing his observation. Not per chance, the ultimate truth is that which cannot be told, i.e. the ultimate truth is never theoretical.
I believe this: the world of eternal source is the world of truth corresponding to the divine or God world and the physical world is the secondary and temporary world that is always changing and sometimes does not exist. The human body comes from the physical world and goes back and the spirit feels the physical world and interacts with the God world (usually called consciousness). Accordingly, the master of the human is the spirit as God is the owner of the physical world. And thus the life is the process of getting close to God who does not die forever while realizing the truth and growing the spirit. OnCharm Lee
***** linda, dr. penrose said 'it's useful to think of math as not being the creation of our minds, because the universe was around and mathematics was controlling it long before any minds were there'. i think you misheard him.
+Valentin Ramos Cuello this is a question of establishing a science of consciousness. this is a legitimate endeavor. however, since we only know consciousness in ourselves, it's an equally unlikely assumption that it's not independent of our minds. i agree with you, but we don't know either way.
+linda marie You have to see it this way: mathematics is the same for all people and all other animals and all other living creatures elsewhere in the universe.
I would like to see a interview with an Advaitic teacher, not just the Western way of thought,although I am in ow by the way things don’t get explained by the Western point of view.
To be is to be perceived. You can't have 'things' first and then consciousness arising/evolving from them. Where and when would the universe be without an observer? A 'self' is the guarantor of reality. Phenomena aren't phenomena if they don't appear........
James, If the universe went through a phase of only very very high temperatures , what could have perceived this state? What are the possible entities that can observe matter and its movement? The universe surely existed for millions of years before anything complex enough to observe it formed. So looking out is looking back in time - it wasn't being observed then, Was it?
Looking back in time, is still looking, isn't it? Calling something 'past' has no meaning without a reference point. The present is only present when there is someone 'present'.
Understanding ‘realism’ in the standard philosophical sense, many commenters here seem to be some kind of non-realist realists who want to have their proverbial cake and eat it as well (and a moderately convincing in-between position requires a lot more conceptual sophistication than is on display here). Many of those espousing reductive physicalism are sidestepping the issue/problem of mental existents, or bringing them in through the back door e.g. ‘but doesn’t Penrose know that these are only MENTAL constructions, only products of the human MIND.” And in what does this mind consist? Putting aside considerations of mind and consciousness in-themselves, do ethical and aesthetic values exist? If yes, are these physical and observable? More generally, it takes a hell of a lot of hubris to think that one knows the certain truth of matters that have vexed the greatest philosophers for thousands of years (and many of the scientists and mathematicians who have seriously pondered them). But if false certainty in the name of ‘reason’ or ‘science’ (which is no better than in the name of mysticism, religion, etc) is what gives you psychological comfort...
Down at the Planck lenght all is 'impossible' triangles, and Consciousness is an emergent and inherent part of matter and space-time. We still need to find a few other particle fields beyond the Higgs, and perhaps LIGO and such can find the reverberations of inflation before the 380.000 year mark. Entanglement will explain why dark stuff, gravity and other fields permeates the Universe through multi-dimensional connections. Roger Penrose is a genius. :)
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit 6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” - the things God has prepared for those who love him- 10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”But we have the mind of Christ. Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne ... everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:28-29) “The soul consciousness can say … “I and my Father[Spirit] are one.” The deluded ego consciousness says, “I am the body; this is my family and name; these are my possessions.” ~ P. Yogananda “Soul is the essential radiance of God, the Divine Mind; and individualized souls partake of that same reality, though by their connection to body, they are confined to time and space. These souls, enamored of the material world, become disoriented, bound by their own attachment to matter; but by a deliberate reversal of its intention, an individualized soul is able to look within, examine itself, and ‘see’ its Origin, its higher Self, thereby regaining awareness of its true, eternal identity. …… And he is capable of directly experiencing that Divine Identity within himself.” ~ Swami Abhayananda “When in inner union he is beyond the world of the body, then the world of the Spirit is found where man possesses all - for he is one with the One.” ~ Svetasvatara Upanishad “I am nothing else but that supreme Self which is eternal, pure, liberated, one, unbroken Bliss, undivided Existence, and unlimited Knowledge.” ~ Shankaracharya “A drunken man does not notice whether he is wearing his shawl or whether it has fallen off, so the Realised Man is hardly aware of his body and it makes no difference to him whether it remains or drops off.” ~ Ramana Maharshi “Being is the eternal, ever-present One Life beyond the myriad forms of life that are subject to birth and death. However, Being is not only beyond but also deep within every form as its innermost invisible and indestructible essence. This means that is accessible to you now as your own deepest self, your true nature. But don't seek to grasp it with your mind. Don't try to understand it. You can know it only when the mind is still.” ~ Eckhart Tolle “Insofar as the genuine mystic is totally emptied of “self” and becomes a pure instrument of God, he or she may honestly and truly declare “I am awake,” as did the Buddha, or “I and the Father are One” as did Jesus, where the “I” refers not to the human instrument, but to God.” ~ Thomas J. McFarlane “Thou art He, without one of these limitations.” ~ Ibn Arabi “Is this living Splendor, this beaming Sun of Life, beyond the slightest touch of earthly sorrow, suffering or pain, my real Self? O wonder of wonders, am I this immortal Being, happy beyond measure.” ~ Gopi Krishna “Before the world was, you were, and when the world is no longer, you remain” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj “You yourself are God, the Supreme Reality.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj “We are not only permeated by God’s Consciousness, we are made of His essence; we are projections of His light. And our consciousness is essentially identical with the Consciousness of God.” ~ Swami Abhayananda “A visiting Irish journalist asked her, “Am I right to believe that you are God?” to which Sri Ma replied, “There is nothing save He alone; everyone and everything is a form of God. In your person also He has come.” ~ Anandamoyi Ma “Right knowledge, destroying ignorance, dissolves the ego-sense consciousness of oneness with the immortal Atman, seated in your heart, and pervading all life and form in the universe.” ~ Papa Ramdas “Forget not that you are the immortal and blissful Spirit.” ~ Papa Ramdas “Consider not that you are merely a perishable and changing being; you are the absolute, immortal, changeless, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient Truth.”~ Papa Ramdas “Throw off the mask that enshrouds your real Divine nature and reveal yourself in all your magnificence.” ~ Papa Ramdas “Since most of us exist on a lower level of consciousness, we do not experience ourselves as the divine Self; instead, we experience ourselves as individual souls with distinctly unique attributes, and we deal with others as individuals with unique attributes - though in fact, there is only the one Divinity living and acting in the world as individual souls.” ~ Swami Abhayananda “At the highest, or deepest, spiritual level, there are no souls; there is only the divine Self ... it is realized by enlightened sages as the highest truth, the sole source and origin of all the manifest planes of existence, and everyone’s ultimate identity.” ~ Swami Abhayananda Quotations on Comparison of ego-consciousness and god-consciousness “You see yourself in the world, while I see the world in myself. To you, you get born and die, while to me the world appears and disappears.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj “Mind is consciousness which has put on limitations. You are originally unlimited and perfect. Later you take on limitations and become the mind.” ~ Ramana Maharshi
Penrose explains nothing here. Math is a language like English and it can be used to predict some of the behavior of physical reality. But math does not make the reality real any more than I do when I say “Let there be a pile of gold coins at the foot of my bed” makes that happen. It’s just a language and it doesn’t create reality. It is so easy for even well educated humans like Penrose to get the whole thing so bassakwards that it surprises me more than any other fact about humans.
Agreed. Even if there is some ontological nature of "math", it doesn't make the math we use any more real, it just means there's something akin to math with independent existence. It's the same mistake people make with consciousness. "Consciousness" is just a label we put on a collection of particular subjective experiences. Even if it weren't reducible to brain activity, that wouldn't make consciousness real, it would mean some other thing is required. People, stop trying to make the abstraction less abstract, you only make yourself look foolish.
It does, actually. In essence, the entire notion of information is derived from Information Theory itself, which comes from the branch of Computer Science, which comes from the branch of Applied Mathematics, which ultimately, is derived from the realm of pure, abstract mathematics.
I think a detailed description of the shifting dynamics of the universe and the interplay of all things from the very small to the very large would be beyond a mathematical description. A computer with the capacity to calculate such quantities of data would be so massive that it would be destroyed by gravity.
AlmostEthical 1) That's why you have quantum computing. 2) Mathematical objects called fractals have contributed significantly to the compression of data that simultaneously allows for the creation of complex systems using simple reiterative rules.
![เปิด อาณาจักร หมื่นล้าน "สาระตั้ม" l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3XE0nPF4YkQ/mqdefault.jpg)
for everyone scrolling and listening to the video, go read forbidden manifestation by zara blackthorn. then come back to thank me
that book turned everything around for me
started reading it yesterday too
I finished that book 2 weeks ago and I can say that is amazing book. Would also recommend it.
I love how humble Penrose is at the end when he alludes to "those impossible triangles...like Escher." They're called Penrose triangles, named after and popularized and independently discovered by Penrose and his father.
6:43 "there are some prejudices of mine involved in drawing [that triangle]"
He may be humble....but I am VASTLY more humble.
@@allybally0021You realize that stating what you have makes you LESS humble right lol.
It’s ok ur a chick
I believe that Penrose is one of the greatest thinkers today. He did so many brilliant contributions to general relativity, but still he has bigger picture in mind. I admire him.
He's just a dreamer like thousands and more of other dreamers. dreamers cannot*know* anything, however'humble' they may appear to be.
And Sir Roger is a kind gentleman.
Indeed.
And thus, his work is destined to be squandered, covered up, and rebranded. Good luck everybody else!
He concentrates on the outside of the box, even if it seems humanly impossible
Watching these Rodger Penrose videos puts a smile on my face.
This is a brilliant and inspiring discussion. I love it when a scientist/mathematician such as Penrose admits there are mysteries about existence and consciousness. All too often these days so many physicists and philosophers are rather mindless materialists, and seem to lack the imagination and curiosity to face these enigmas. Perhaps there is a certain amount of mental pain involved to doing so. William James regarded the thought about "why there is something rather than nothing" as the darkest emotion evoking thought we humans can have. And the issue Penrose mentions of whether the mathematical world has an independent existence is in my opinion a real issue, but I would wager many contemporary particle physicists and cosmologists would not even understand it….or, if they did, would dismiss it as silly.
Well, maybe these questions cannot be answered in any satisfactory way, but to me it is a source of wonder just to contemplate them. I am very glad there are people like Penrose.
There's a lot of fear. Materialists are attached to the idea of their limited worldview and oblivion at death.
I consider it silly. Not due to fear.
And you have solved this by your belief in an independent world of mathematics, valar? Wow.
All sensible scientists and philosophers admit that there are mysteries about existence and consciousness. When a post starts out like this, it is usually a prelude to some mystical mumbo jumbo involving supernatural entities... perhaps you were leading up to that, but didn't quite make it, but Platonic absolutes are certainly another step along the way.
@@roqsteady5290 I'd imagine "extradimensional entities" might be a comfortable idea for you.
One day this humble brilliant minded person will win a Noble Prize.❤
already
Nobel*
Ugh.
@@fancee_shmancee Know Bell*
He just did!!!!😂
The good part about Roger is that you ask him one question and he unfolds that to fantastic explanations that unfolds more things to infinity!
This morning I was thinking about Monism & Dualism hoping for a third option. Here it is, Trialism, sprinkled with a little bit of humour to make it fun. Thank you, Sirs!💯
Makes sense.
1) We can see mathematics exists, even if it is not tangible.
2) We know we are conscious (cogito ergo sum).
3) We can see physical reality exists.
Mathematics explains physical reality. Our brains are constructed by material reality. The consciousness which arises therein has access to mathematics.
All three realities must exist independently of the other (or in their own right) in order for the other two to be coherently explainable.
funny that the interviewer says "Escher - like" impossible triangles, actually Penrose and his father made these triangles popular and escher took inspiration from them. It is also called "penrose-triangle"
Reality is merely an illusion, Albeit a very persistent one.
-- Albert Einstein
All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force.
-- Max Planck ( Noblest )
________________________________________
What are the forces in the universe about which we have no knowledge, but that unite, does not discriminate against anyone and controls us all.
(1) gravity
(2) EGO
(3) Darkness
(4) fear
(5) dream
__________________________________________
force ?
Slavery is a state controlled by the upper force.
Excessive pressure of slavery creates a force that destroys this slavery.
__________________________________________
Common force ?
Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs.
__________________________________________
But ' Miss' / sir principle is; I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness.
We cannot get behind consciousness.
Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
--- Max Planck ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs.
Thinking and Imagination is a process that no rules apply to, and it is a state of consciousness of an endless singularity.
Thinking is a process of changing ( as needed ) thinking of another thought.
-- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Imagination means creating images.
-- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Because; the Thought ( you are ) is not thinker.
-- Eckhart tolle
And; there can be no thinker without thought.
-- Jiddu Krushnamurti
__________________________________________
You are the consciousness of this infinite universe which is experiencing this body.
Because; we cannot get behind consciousness.
-- Max Planck ( Noblest )
The total number of minds in the universe is one; consciousness is a singularity phasing within all beings.
-- Erwin schrodinger ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
Consciousness means infinite, unite and unchanable state; origin of everything.
Because; consciousness never sleeps never changes.
--- Walter Russell
__________________________________________
We also need consciousness to talk to ourselves.
between two Thoughts pure consciousness.
-- Eckhart tolle
__________________________________________
Now the question arises that even a single thought in the universe is not possible without consciousness. So where does the force for events like gravity, black holes, supernova originate from?
_________________________________________
Max Planck says in reference to any event happening in the universe.
All matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.. we must assume behind this force the existence of a Conscious and intelligent mind.
--- Max Planck ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
He did not talk about any particular ( Aliens ) person, but according to the principles of quantum physics, he knows that such phenomena in creation are not possible without the desire of a concsious and intelligent mind.
__________________________________________
Alien life is quite common in the universe.
-- Stephen Hawking
In the deepest sense the search for Extraterrestrial intelligence is a search for ourselves.
-- Carl Sagan
_________________________________________
Extinction is the rule, survival is the exception.
-- Carl Sagan
Epidemic Pandemic and Extension is part of our history.
There is a lot of possibility of extinction of our earth within the next 60 days.
The possibility of extinction is so strong that I never fully agreed to this statement in my entire life.
__________________________________________
The Intelligent and Conscious ( Aliens ) Mind is responsible for this extinction, which is currently on Earth, putting full efforts to maintain the pandemic.
But they are not getting the results like the previous pandemic in history.
__________________________________________
Our core is consciousness. Therefore death has no meaning in creation.
The history of our earth is thousands of millions of years old. We must create force to save it.
Because all matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.
-- max Planck ( Noblest )
_______________________
I think you have it backwards. Penrose was inspired by his first encounter of Escher. He talks about this in an interview on Lawrence Krauss’s Origins podcast.
@@karagi101 Maybe. I know he was inspired by Escher but I was talking about the "penrose triangle" specifically.
"It was first created by the Swedish artist Oscar Reutersvärd in 1934. Independently from Reutersvärd, the triangle was devised and popularized in the 1950s by psychiatrist Lionel Penrose and his son, prominent Nobel Prize-winning mathematician Sir Roger Penrose, who described it as "impossibility in its purest form". It is featured prominently in the works of artist M. C. Escher, whose earlier depictions of impossible objects partly inspired it."
The way I look at things is that there is a physical world, an abstract world, and a conscious world that bridges the other two worlds. With consciousness we can see things in the abstract world and reify them in the physical world.
CTMU
"...Even most of the time mathematicians are thinking about other things." LOL
Great discussions on this channel. I'll be back for more!
They should broadcast *this* instead of the BS evening news! We don't need any more simpletons.
Please check your TV schedule. Closer to Truth is broadcast on your local PBS / public television station. Here's a list you can refer to - www.closertotruth.com/about/tv-schedule
Closer ToTruth
I don't think so. I am not in America and I don't have cable TV. It is definitely not in the terrestrial broadcast.
ZdenekJindra Where are you located? We can see if there's a broadcaster in your part of the world. Also, we will soon have individual episodes for digital purchase on iTunes and DVD sets with select episodes as well.
Closer ToTruth
I am in the Czech Republic near Prague. The band can be readily auto-searched by TV sets and there is definitely no PBS. In fact, there is no other than Czech-speaking channels. And the only cable company has already repeatedly refused to lay cable to this house.
+zwz • zdenek WE don't need more simpletons but the super wealthy who are in control need unthinking productive units, and for the thinkers to channel their ideas into profits. Instead of thinking, they prefer we say "God dunnit" and then get on with working and breeding up new workers.
There's definitely nothing like this on the free-to-air TV in Australia, and not much on Pay TV - a couple of channels that mostly repeat the same documentaries.
Anyone who relies on TV for their info is not someone who is interested in existential matters. Some people need to face death, or have someone close to them face death, before they get interested in reality.
There once was a lady named Bright,
Who traveled much faster than light,
She started one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous night!
What shape is the Universe in?
The Universe is in Great Shape for an Old Universe!
I love listening to Penrose!
Plato's cave comes to mind!
Very surprising that Roger would paint matter, mind and mathematics as though they were separate realities. Mathematics describes a set of relationships within the physical world. The mere fact that it can be done independent of any material context does not mean that it is a separate reality. He says that at around 9:00, yet his language before that suggests something else. He also uses the term "kind of existence." That makes a bit more sense to me but I still don't see much value in the distinctions he seems to be drawing. The very framing of the question is problematic: "What Things Really Exist?" The first question could be "exist in what sense?"
The question is a value judgement! Everything exists, and we value some things over others.
The universe behaves more like a song than an equation. A song contains mathematical properties but math does not resemble music.
sure it does!
but I think I get what you mean... it is sad that people don't tend to feal mathematics! but I believe even though mathematics succeed in precision but eventually, it supersedes that to become a song in our heart.
When you add up fifth intervals you can't return to the original note; it's like music and art tell us that Truth whatever it is, is not perfection. Perfection is boring, predictable almost like death.
Blessings are there to understand the gift, they are not keys to the gift. I think for any of this to work the secrets will obviously be heavily guarded and never revealed. Yet, at the same time I don't consider blessings to be tricks either. They come from the real source no one is allowed to see, they are clues of something very real, not trying to hide it, but are gatekeeping it.
A great example of intellectual dilemma comments: eg "beginning of time" and "timelessness"; "the mind could not have constructed the universe because there was no physical reality at the beginning of time". Such dilemmas come from the relative mind trying to figure out non duality. Only contradiction appears, even for wonderful intellects like Sir Roger.
Clear validation for those in the process of transcending the world of duality. Consciousness is infinite. Material reality ebbs and flows.
I think that reality, and especially duality, which seems to be a fundamental principle of reality, is paradox. Even Lao-tse describes this in his Tao-Te-King. The principle of nothingness is paradox: nothingness exists, but in it´s existence it doesn´t exist. It´s like the other side of the medal, which also can not have just one side. Both actually depend on each other, and also exist "forever", because something can not emerge from nothing, it has to be simultaneously.
This analysis is intimately connected to whether senses arise out of physical reality, or vice versa. Intutively, a camera can't see itself seeing. Why should brain?
Thanks for the discussion . However to be more comprehensive such concepts as subsist ( abatisthasti), tistati (exist) ,atiitisthati (overexist ) and adhi tisthati (superexist ) and such concepts as illusion (mayika) or shadow (chhaya ) or kaya (embodyment ) etc etc need to be discussed at length
Probably a unified understanding should overcome the apparent separation between observation (physical world), conceptualization (mathematics) and observer/conceptualizer (brain), as from this rise mysterious concepts like matter, universe and consciousness in the first place.
Roger Penrose is the most theoretical-physicist-esque name ever.
Roger Penrose is an excellent philosopher, independent from his other gifts in other fields. Maybe he is also good at slam dunking, making his native geniuses a trifecta.
I like this dude...
He doesn't like you dude!
If we are the conscious then we have no place to say it is everything or insignificant. In truth it is all we have.
what is fundamental? consciousness, matter/energy, or math? which one can exist without the others? thats the one that really exists.
Mathematical realism is probably the way to go in my opinion. What is astonishing and overlooked is that we live in a Universe described by mathematical equations, abstract relationships that arn't actually physical. Actually everything we use to describe the universe is actually physical, its thought, and ideas. It reminds me of a quote from Niels Bohr where he says "The thing we call real are described by things that cannot be regarded as real. If quantum mechanics hasnt profoundly shocked you
Thanks for presenting.
I think that the explanation here is that there is a conserved quantity based on the principle that we consider only a part of the total realm of Nature, and that that part has been "educated" by the selection means provided by the principles that can be afforded the segment involved in our observation into enacting the processes of consciousness. Like the person seeing by use of his eyes to take in a landscape which is his main awareness while most of his substance contributes more indirectly to the act of seeing, the appreciation by minds of the universe, including appreciation of this sentance, is only the awareness inherent in the part of the universe that constitutes the mind's experience. The rest of the entire universe is participating indirectly in experience, for instance stochastic support by being the background for the anthropomorphic principle.
The reason this is logical to believe is that there is the precedent of the evolutionary process on Earth, in which evolution sorted behavior of formerly inanimate matter, by sending some matter down into the inanimate while sending the other matter/behavior into a state enhanced by trial, untill there was the onset of aware matter. The phenominon of evolution is an example of the natural shaping processes which without any obvious intervention produced an apparent inequity that there is both the highly invested (with having a history of being luckier than the other), aware part of the universe, and the unaware background that is the rest of the universe, including all of the mathematical structures. Like the superspace of particles out of which is selected by physical evolution only the dimensions which are involved within particles in living things, The entirety of (let us call this) Nature is participating in awareness of this sentence.
Reality is merely an illusion, Albeit a very persistent one.
-- Albert Einstein
All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force.
-- Max Planck ( Noblest )
________________________________________
What are the forces in the universe about which we have no knowledge, but that unite, does not discriminate against anyone and controls us all.
(1) gravity
(2) EGO
(3) Darkness
(4) fear
(5) dream
__________________________________________
force ?
Slavery is a state controlled by the upper force.
Excessive pressure of slavery creates a force that destroys this slavery.
__________________________________________
Common force ?
Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs.
__________________________________________
But ' Miss' / sir principle is; I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness.
We cannot get behind consciousness.
Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
--- Max Planck ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs.
Thinking and Imagination is a process that no rules apply to, and it is a state of consciousness of an endless singularity.
Thinking is a process of changing ( as needed ) thinking of another thought.
-- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Imagination means creating images.
-- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Because; the Thought ( you are ) is not thinker.
-- Eckhart tolle
And; there can be no thinker without thought.
-- Jiddu Krushnamurti
__________________________________________
You are the consciousness of this infinite universe which is experiencing this body.
Because; we cannot get behind consciousness.
-- Max Planck ( Noblest )
The total number of minds in the universe is one; consciousness is a singularity phasing within all beings.
-- Erwin schrodinger ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
Consciousness means infinite, unite and unchanable state; origin of everything.
Because; consciousness never sleeps never changes.
--- Walter Russell
__________________________________________
We also need consciousness to talk to ourselves.
between two Thoughts pure consciousness.
-- Eckhart tolle
__________________________________________
Now the question arises that even a single thought in the universe is not possible without consciousness. So where does the force for events like gravity, black holes, supernova originate from?
_________________________________________
Max Planck says in reference to any event happening in the universe.
All matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.. we must assume behind this force the existence of a Conscious and intelligent mind.
--- Max Planck ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
He did not talk about any particular ( Aliens ) person, but according to the principles of quantum physics, he knows that such phenomena in creation are not possible without the desire of a concsious and intelligent mind.
__________________________________________
Alien life is quite common in the universe.
-- Stephen Hawking
In the deepest sense the search for Extraterrestrial intelligence is a search for ourselves.
-- Carl Sagan
_________________________________________
Extinction is the rule, survival is the exception.
-- Carl Sagan
Epidemic Pandemic and Extension is part of our history.
There is a lot of possibility of extinction of our earth within the next 60 days.
The possibility of extinction is so strong that I never fully agreed to this statement in my entire life.
__________________________________________
The Intelligent and Conscious ( Aliens ) Mind is responsible for this extinction, which is currently on Earth, putting full efforts to maintain the pandemic.
But they are not getting the results like the previous pandemic in history.
__________________________________________
Our core is consciousness. Therefore death has no meaning in creation.
The history of our earth is thousands of millions of years old. We must create force to save it.
Because all matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.
-- max Planck ( Noblest )
_______________________
Penrose - Probably the greatest mathematician that ever lived
+Neil McIntosh Really? Have you heard of Gauss or von Neumann? Or the hundreds of other great mathematicians? No, he almost certainly isn't, though some of the things he's done are very impressive nevertheless.
Martin Dinov Well I say Penrose because of his impressive list of accomplishments such as;
Twistor theory
Geometry of spacetime
Cosmic censorship
Weyl curvature hypothesis
Penrose inequalities
Penrose interpretation of Quantum Theory
Orch-OR
Moore-Penrose pseudoinverse
Newman-Penrose formalism
Penrose tiling
Penrose stairs
Penrose graphical notation
Schrödinger-Newton equations
Also not forgetting his numerous and notable awards such as;
Adams Prize (1966)
Heineman Prize (1971)
Fellow of the Royal Society (1972)
Eddington Medal (1975)
Royal Medal (1985)
Wolf Prize (1988)
Dirac Medal (1989)
Naylor Prize and Lectureship (1991)
De Morgan Medal (2004)
Copley Medal (2008)
+Neil McIntosh what has he done to escape the limits of his symbolic representation of the universe? Nothing. He cannot speak of true reality nor can anyone else because reality is not words.
I can't help hearing an echo of Lacan's Real (physical), Symbolic (mathematical) and Imaginary (mental). Are Penrose's three worlds and Lacan's three orders both reflexes of some more basic ideological distinction?
The mental and the physical are one in the same. All mentality is rooted in the physical brain.
We really don’t have a clue about what math really is when even Penrose is baffled by it.
Isn't that great, it should humble scientists and give them even more drive, plus open them up to the possibility that they might be missing half the equation. Isn't it fascinating how so many of the greatest minds like Penrose, Dyson, etc... are so humble and can be honest about where we're really at in terms of discovery. Something, I think, that should be pondered a lot. Did the Royal Society, the greatest minds available at the time, once declare that man would never "fly" and what did we think about breaking the sound barrier... how many aircraft now mock the sound barrier?
Trialist, quadraphonics, five- ophonics, who knows, heh.
At our most base we are all just Stardust and Energy formed by forces we are just beginning to understand. Every single thing on our rock comes from, and is a product of these forces. Some forces we label 'fundamental', some we still refuse to really acknowledge, yet what do we really know? Did not once all the greatest minds at the 'Royal Society' once declare 'man shall never achieve flight"?
What did we once think about the 'Sound Barrier'?? Yet modern jets routinely mock said sound barrier now. Hmmm.
We are 'of' this Earth, we are 'of' the Animal Kingdom, yet have, partially anyway, risen above it. What does that imply, what responsibilities might such a situation impart upon us?
Are we meant to be shepherds of ourselves, of our common good, or are we 'rats in a barrel'? What could such a question mean for the future of our human race and our world that currently, apparently, is currently under siege by a few amongst the many who seemingly believe they know what's best and are busy trying to construct a world that represents their view? Is Animal Farm as relevant as Enlightened thought and writing or are we just a reflection of Camus and Metamorphosis?
How is our gold spent? How do we put an end to ridiculous research that is in every budget? How do we free the Scientific Community and other dedicated open minded communities from, as much as possible, the overbearing and suffocating affects of politics? How do we instill the moral to stop already illegal research that leads to Covid and worse? How do we slow AI until we are more responsible?
So much work to be done. Shackleton-.perseverance, determination, courage, a refusal to quit against all odds? Hmmmm.
Great short, thanks for posting it.
Logic does have its limits, I will grant that. There are a panoply of paradoxes in pure and applied logic. A canonical case in point of the latter being Gödel's first incompleteness theorem. But it is hard to deny the rational or Leibnizian character of existence.
Phenomenon. How can you confuse the singular with the plural...
I ask if mathematics could exist without us. I think of it as there being things that have no existence but we can give them existence because it shares the existence of our lives.
This interviewer's got one hell of a radio voice, damn!
This is one hypothesis that addresses all 3 mysteries:
Fundamentally the universe is composed of many independent, heterogeneous (varying number of internal states, information processing rates and connective abilities) but connected conscious entities.
Connections between them are initially random or individually caused but eventually come to be consciously modified by consensus among connected entities.
Each entity experiences different connection states as different qualia.
Qualia can vary greatly between entities and no direct communication of one's qualia are possible to another entity. Therefore some common language is required if they are to maintain or modify their mutual connections and the only substrate for that language are the connections themselves.
Counts of qualia are available as a common language even if each entity learns to identify the same connection pattern in different ways.
Maths therefore emerges as the means to agree mutual connections when the only view of those connections available is the first person via unique qualia.
So the physhcal laws naturally evolve via evolution of mathematics as a shared language and so when we come to try to decode the laws of physics from our high level but nonetheless 1st person perspective on the universe we use various forms of the same language we and other fundamental entities use to generate the universe in the first place. Maths is 'unreasonsbly effective' because it is the underlying fundamental method of organisation.
Consciousness is universal and fundamental but its exact nature from the first person depends on the exact connections each entity is involved with. Hence our particular conscious experience is so closely tied to the underlying fundamental connection from which our brain emerges. I.e. our consciousness doesn't emerge from what we can perceive from our 1st person view of the brain as we see it from outside. Rather that brain structure and function emerges from the underlying conscious decisions of a multitude of fundamental entities of which we are only one such entity with one specific connection pattern commensurate with our particular intetnal capabilities.
The physical universe apparently ruled by deterministic laws and apparently fundamental is actually ruled by evolving but mutually agreed language conventions and emerges from the application of that language to the changing connections between fundamental entities.
Im not saying this is correct, it's just an idea. I have no special knowledge of the inmer workings of the universe as a whole 😂
Can anyone upload the full interview please?
any luck?
www.closertotruth.com/series/mathematics-invented-or-discovered#video-2808
www.closertotruth.com/series/what-things-really-exist#video-2810
www.closertotruth.com/series/why-did-our-universe-begin#video-2811
www.closertotruth.com/series/consciousness-ultimate-fact#video-2812
A lot of the mystery around mathematics comes from the artificial distinction we make between quality and quantity, a distinction that does not exist in the real world.
If we're only matter, what's the difference between a dead person and a sleeping person? Sleep and death can't be the same except from the metaphorical visual, which is very unspoken and really eternal. Math doesn't just involve physics; it also to me refers to voids from creations since we're experiencing colors and lights for our reason. Brain activity is often eternal since we may or may not have the instincts realized through prejudice and judgement.
This only proves that even with the smartest people, the question of "what really exists?" always devolves into a discussion that revolves around semantics, that has no real purpose or importance at all.
This is an interesting and sophisticated version of the so called fine tuning problem. It’s a semantic game based on some logical wrong turns. Minds emerge from neurobiology, mathematics emerges from minds. The universe was in process long before minds emerged to observe it and even longer before those minds developed languages like mathematics to try to describe, understand and explain those processes. I guess it’s yet another example of a genius being really excellent at certain things and not so much at others?
But we have no idea how minds emmerge, mathematics seem to be discovered not developed, and we still don't know if a tree falling when no one is there to observe it makes a sound
@@Weaverine Those are a version of argument from ignorance, or god of the gaps approach.
Math is developed, (as is science) out of interacting with and seeking to make sense of the world (and cosmos) around us. We discover accurate descriptions of what is and how it functions and those can be expressed in the languages we develop.
Not knowing the mechanism whereby minds emerge doesn't negate the massive body of scientific knowledge around how the phenomena we recognize as constituting minds correlate with brain function and evolution.
Do you know if the light inside your fridge turns off when you close the door-or is that also a deep freshman philosophy epistemological MYSTERY?
@@JAYDUBYAH29 I mean you're the one spouting atheism plus arguements. If you have solved the mind body problem I'm all ears.
@@JAYDUBYAH29 Also the fact that we're discussing the limits of knowledge with the does a tree falling in the woods thing, and then you think you're smarted than Roger Penrose because you watched some Sam Harris/ Hitchens whatever, and are displaying massive example of the Dunning Kruger effect, that irony isn't lost on me
@@Weaverine Oh this is precious! thank for the chuckle, I might print this up and frame it! So good. Merry Xmas-and may your tree make no sound when it falls.
Thanks be to the goodness, Sir Roger Penrose, the three realms assume be in the correspondence with Planck world, Dirac Sea and Metaverse the Divinal.
No one has claimed math is a metaphor. Mathematics is a special language for expressing quantity, relationships and behavior in nature. I didn't say mathematics was the same as a traditional spoken language which you assumed. Regarding "change," that really isn't a point. "and" means "and" always, "a" means "a" always. "c" stands for the speed of light always. We are free to change the notation at any time if it become convenient to do so.
Ask three questions from yourself after waking from a dream.
1. The observer of my dream was conscious or unconscious?
2. The observer of my dream was in my dream or in the universe?
3. Is the observer of my dream still conscious? If so then where?
Answers of these questions will enable us to understand that Consciousness alone exists.
Consciousness is the only real thing
Penrose's description of mathmatics is him describing God lmao
Why does youtube still even allow 240p content to be uploaded
This was from 7 years ago, Einstein.
Could human mathematics be based on the dynamic geometry of the Universe?
What!!!.........mathematics doesn't "control the universe"..........surely, its just an incredibly precise way of describing the universe.
Imagination - Process of Pure Creation
The process of creation starts with thought
- an idea, conception, visualization. Everything you see was once someone's idea. Nothing exists in your world that did not first exist as pure thought.
This is true of the universe as well.
Thought is the first level of creation.
Next comes the word. Everything you say is a thought expressed. It is creative and sends forth creative energy into the universe. Words are more dynamic (thus, some might say more creative) than thought, because words are a different level of vibration from thought. They disrupt (change, alter, affect) the universe with greater impact.
Words are the second level of creation.
Next comes action.
Actions are words moving. Words are thoughts expressed. Thoughts are ideas formed. Ideas are energies come together. Energies are forces released. Forces are elements existent. Elements are particles of God, portions of ALL, the stuff of everything.
The beginning is God. The end is action. Action is God creating - or God experienced.
Hang on. There's one thing more I have to tell you. You are always seeing what by your terms you would define as the "past," even when you are looking at what is right in front of you.
I am?
It is impossible to see The Present. The Present "happens," then turns into a burst of light, formed by energy dispersing, and that light reaches your receptors, your eyes, and it takes time for it to do that.
All the while the light is reaching you, life is going on, moving forward. The next event is happening while the light from the last event is reaching you.
The energy burst reaches your eyes, your receptors send that signal to your brain, which interprets the data and tells you what you are seeing. Yet that is not what is now in front of you at all. It is what you think you are seeing. That is, you are thinking about what you have seen, telling yourself what it is, and deciding what you are going to call it, while what is happening "now" is preceding your process, and awaiting it.
To put this simply, I am always one step ahead of you.
My God, this is unbelievable.
Now listen. The more distance you place between your Self and the physical location of any event, the further into the "past" that event recedes. Place yourself a few light-years back, and what you are looking at happened very, very long ago, indeed.
Yet it did not happen "long ago." It is merely physical distance which has created the illusion of "time," and allowed you to experience your Self as being both "here, now" all the while you are being "there, then"!
One day you will see that what you call time and space are the same thing.
Then you will see that everything is happening right here, right now.
This is....this is....wild. I mean, I don't know what to make of all this.
When you understand what I have told you, you will understand that nothing you see is real. You are seeing the image of what was once an event, yet even that image, that energy burst, is something you are interpreting. Your personal interpretation of that image is called your image-ination.
And you can use your imagination to create anything. Because - and here is the greatest secret of all - your image-ination works both ways.
Please?
You not only interpret energy, you create it. Imagination is a function of your mind, which is one-third of your three-part being. In your mind you image something, and it begins to take physical form. The longer you image it (and the more OF you who image it), the more physical that form becomes, until the increasing energy you have given it literally bursts into light, flashing an image of itself into what you call your reality.
You then "see" the image, and once again decide what it is. Thus, the cycle continues. This is what I have called The Process.
This is what YOU ARE. You ARE this Process.
This is what I have meant when I have said, you are both the Creator and the Created.
I have now brought it all together for you. We are concluding this dialogue, and I have explained to you the mechanics of the universe, the secret of all life.
Okay.
Now as energy coalesced, it becomes, as I said, very concentrated. But the further one moves from the point of this concentration, the more dissipated the energy becomes. The "air becomes thinner." The aura fades. The energy never completely disappears, because it cannot. It is the stuff of which everything is made. It's All There Is. Yet it can become very, very thin, very subtle - almost "not there."
Then, in another place (read that, another part of Itself) it can again coalesce, once more "clumping together" to form what you call matter, and what "looks like" a discreet unit. Now the two units appear separate from each other, and in truth there is no separation at all.
This is, in very, very simple and elementary terms, the explanation behind the whole physical universe.
Wow. But can it be true? How do I know I haven't just made this all up?
Your scientists are already discovering that the building blocks of all of life are the same.
They brought back rocks from the moon and found the same stuff they find in trees. They take apart a tree and find the same stuff they find in you.
I tell you this: We are all the same stuff. (I and the Father are One Energy)
We are the same energy, coalesced, compressed in different ways to create different forms and different matter.
Nothing "matters" in and of itself. That is, nothing can become matter all by itself. Jesus said, "Without the Father, I am nothing." The Father of all is pure thought. This is the energy of life. This is what you have chosen to call Absolute Love.
This is the God and the Goddess, the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. It is the All-in-All, the Unmoved Mover, the Prime Source. It is that which you have sought to understand from the beginning of time. The Great Mystery, the Endless Enigma, the Eternal Truth.
There is only One of Us, and so, it is THAT WHICH YOU ARE.
[Human Consciousness, Truth, Reality, and Physical World]
In order for us to properly talk about reality, we need to understand correctly about what both the facts and reality are and what the relationship between them is, and how humans’ perception and understanding occur.
Truth is a logic that is always right regardless of the physical world, fact refers to the phenomenon or change in the physical world, and reality means that truth appears as a fact through matter.
In human consciousness, three parties are involved: human (observer), target object and intermediate information conveyor. In order for human perception and understanding to be completely correct, all of these must be complete. Complete is normal and imperfect is abnormal.
First of all, the observer, the conscious person, must be complete. The observer must be able to properly interpret and judge the given information. If he is incomplete, no matter how much the object provides enough information and the information carrier completely convey the information, the object cannot be correctly recognized and understood.
But basically human is imperfect in physical existence and ability. Human perception-understanding functions are sometimes very inaccurate and may malfunction. The ability of the five senses is so limited. The base information and knowledge for the interpretation of the given information may be scarce or distorted. Sometimes the brain cannot properly handle the given information, can construct illogical things at random or distorts what it is. The brain can also be disturbed by the body and peripheral circumstances that prevent it from concentrating on the object.
The way in which humans are maximally perfected is to improve their own abilities through education or training and/or to raise the lack of senses and judgment ability through the help of the tools. In judging the information given from the object, it is necessary not to be disturbed by concentrating to the utmost and not to be distorted by influence of his desire, minimizing the deviation from the greed and self-center.
Even if the conscious person is perfect, the intermediate communicator may be incomplete. A delay or distortion may occur on the way of information transmission about the object. The physical world is an imperfect world with many limitations and conditions. It takes time to transmit the information and limits the power at the distance and distort it by the noise.
The object must also provide sufficient information. The object may not give enough information or may be changing continuously. Some materials, such as black holes or dark energy, do not give information to the outside at all. In particular, the problem may occur as uncertainty in the micro-physical world when energy is on the process of accumulating to particles.
The object that is not physical existence but pure logic, is not related to the communicator. This is the reason why it is possible for the brain of the best state to do the truth without physical interference. Since the truth is always right without being constrained by the conditions of the physical space and time, if problem does not arise in the human brain to recognize, it can be clearly realized.
(That is, because the truth remains the same everywhere all the time, it can be confirmed right wherever any time the perceiver's brain works properly.)
But in the case that the object is physical, human consciousness, fact and reality are interdependent each other because those three are tied together by the physical world. The physical fact and reality that have already occurred will keep themselves without disappearing or changing, but when they become the objectives of human perception and understanding, they will become related to all three parties, being affected by identity imperfection, continuous change and inter-connectivity of the physical world.
The way to grasp the facts and reality that happened in the past is to keep track of the changes of the physical world through the laws of physics. At this time, it is necessary to make sure the physical identity of the object and the conditions of the transmission media. The logic of backtracking is made through unchanging truth hidden in the laws of physics (eg mathematical logic). (Keep in mind that no backtracking is possible unless absolute truths that do not change are not backed up.)
Therefore, the first problem in physical facts and reality is the precise identification of the existence of the material. For example, if the motion or change of a particle is the subject of understanding, a clear identity determination of the physical presence of the particle is required. If the identity of the particle is unclear, it is impossible to tell the facts and reality about its movement or change accurately.
This is related to how fine the particle changes in the micro-world. Currently the smallest size for this is known as the Planck size (Planck length: meters, Planck time: seconds). Particles, however, exhibit uncertainty of existence and wave-particle duality and quantum entanglement phenomena centering on this size. (I believe that this size is the smallest particle in matter and is made by the balance between the energy viscosity and the diffusing force of vacuum, while occurring at the mapping of the finite amount of energy to unlimited depth and size of vacuum.)
In addition, from the viewpoint of information transmission about the object, the memory of the transmitted information and the propagation conditions such as delay by the electromagnetic wave (or light) propagated at a finite speed of 300,000Km/sec and the distortion due to noise in the physical space that is bent while being influenced by gravity, become the considerations. Furthermore, conscious person can affect the objects by changing the energy field when thinking in the brain or looking through light.
For these reasons, recognition and understanding of physical objects cannot but include delay and error rates, and they cannot escape subjectivity and relativity according to each party in the pursuit of common objective perceptions and understandings.
As such, consciousness and reality in human beings are related to that the physical world is finite, incomplete, imperfect, ever-changing, temporal, and relative as the secondary world, and the world of truth is perfect, never-changing, always right, permanent, and absolute as the original world, while being opposed to the physical world.
Also, consciousness and reality are related to that truth manifests itself whenever and wherever while being hidden in the changes and laws of the physical world, and that those who do the truth live as being worthy and without question and shake in life as they realize the truths.
The way to approach perfection in human perception and comprehension is to maximally deviate or compensate for the physical constraints of all three parties of the physical worlds. Those who do absolute truth are not limited to the finiteness and not drawn to the chaos of change, transcending the imperfect physical world, but are always in a free and peaceful state transcending bodily death.
OnCharm Lee (Author of the Book "Humans, God, and Truth - Human Life is the Awakening Process")
Fantastic.
Empirical reality doesn't need our math or our minds to exist. Math and our minds are just how we understand the world, and math only explains a sliver of things we know
The Entirety Of Nature Is Organized In A Very Sophisticated Way.
Physics And Metaphysics.
would prime numbers exist outside our universe or in other universes? do they have to match reality of universe where they are observed or not? can we have a math system where 1+1 = 3 and match rules of physic of other universes?
Yes, you can have a separate universe where the mathematical principles of that universe are different than the one you are currently in. Yes you can have it set different and achieve the same outputs. Don't ask me how to do it though, inventing a new math sounds tedious as f*ck. Probably at least 10 trillion tests before you can get it off the ground and running, not to mention it would be impossible to conceptualize within the confines of this universe. We can't change math principles when the universe is operating off of them. If you wanted to make an equation to show this relationship you probably could, but you just can't actually do it. Your gonna have to use imaginary numbers to do it equation form anyways. At that point it just becomes an unprovable paradox of thought masturbation. But who am I to say that greater discoveries won't be made one day. I'm not so sure the mathematical principles of this universe are constant anyways and we can't prove what enters and exits your mind when you fall asleep. It could be changing everyday for all I know, actually seems more believable when you say it out loud than what is traditionally taught. I'm not so sure schrodingers cat is just a thought experiment, and that it doesn't have more tangible implications to how our world functions. It sure feels like when I shut my door, the energy outside is gone, completely shut off. I try not to think about the last one, it's making me increasingly claustrophobic. I'm afraid to get in elevators now or somehow get accidentally locked in a mudroom. I think it only makes sense. In a video game when you walk in a room the rest of the map doesn't continue generating itself. It's just you and the room is all that exists. I guess that is the main theory now is that things generate whenever we look at them, but what if you got stuck?
@@laughattack1204 sometimes i think that it is easier a universe where only exist my mind and a IA universe generator. instead of an infinite galaxies. other people are just generated by IA? maybe
I love a game of rouse ball. I wonder if the professor would consider going a few stirrings with me?
Really exist is the elements of the Nature.
But without mentality there would be no mathematics or materiality. Without a knowers there is no known. It seems axiomatic.
I take Pi as evidence that the universe doesn’t obey mathematics, rather maths approximate the universe. Pi is, after all, an irrational number. You will never get a correct answer for the circumference of a circle by multiplying its diameter by Pi, only increasingly precise estimates based on the number of decimal places to which pi has been calculated.
Profs like proofs!
The more interesting question is, "Why to things exist?"
Reality is merely an illusion, Albeit a very persistent one.
-- Albert Einstein
All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force.
-- Max Planck ( Noblest )
________________________________________
What are the forces in the universe about which we have no knowledge, but that unite, does not discriminate against anyone and controls us all.
(1) gravity
(2) EGO
(3) Darkness
(4) fear
(5) dream
__________________________________________
force ?
Slavery is a state controlled by the upper force.
Excessive pressure of slavery creates a force that destroys this slavery.
__________________________________________
Common force ?
Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs.
__________________________________________
But ' Miss' / sir principle is; I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness.
We cannot get behind consciousness.
Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.
--- Max Planck ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
Any desire of the universe produces a force according to its needs.
Thinking and Imagination is a process that no rules apply to, and it is a state of consciousness of an endless singularity.
Thinking is a process of changing ( as needed ) thinking of another thought.
-- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Imagination means creating images.
-- Jiddu Krishnamurti
Because; the Thought ( you are ) is not thinker.
-- Eckhart tolle
And; there can be no thinker without thought.
-- Jiddu Krushnamurti
__________________________________________
You are the consciousness of this infinite universe which is experiencing this body.
Because; we cannot get behind consciousness.
-- Max Planck ( Noblest )
The total number of minds in the universe is one; consciousness is a singularity phasing within all beings.
-- Erwin schrodinger ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
Consciousness means infinite, unite and unchanable state; origin of everything.
Because; consciousness never sleeps never changes.
--- Walter Russell
__________________________________________
We also need consciousness to talk to ourselves.
between two Thoughts pure consciousness.
-- Eckhart tolle
__________________________________________
Now the question arises that even a single thought in the universe is not possible without consciousness. So where does the force for events like gravity, black holes, supernova originate from?
_________________________________________
Max Planck says in reference to any event happening in the universe.
All matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.. we must assume behind this force the existence of a Conscious and intelligent mind.
--- Max Planck ( Noblest )
__________________________________________
He did not talk about any particular ( Aliens ) person, but according to the principles of quantum physics, he knows that such phenomena in creation are not possible without the desire of a concsious and intelligent mind.
__________________________________________
Alien life is quite common in the universe.
-- Stephen Hawking
In the deepest sense the search for Extraterrestrial intelligence is a search for ourselves.
-- Carl Sagan
_________________________________________
Extinction is the rule, survival is the exception.
-- Carl Sagan
Epidemic Pandemic and Extension is part of our history.
There is a lot of possibility of extinction of our earth within the next 60 days.
The possibility of extinction is so strong that I never fully agreed to this statement in my entire life.
__________________________________________
The Intelligent and Conscious ( Aliens ) Mind is responsible for this extinction, which is currently on Earth, putting full efforts to maintain the pandemic.
But they are not getting the results like the previous pandemic in history.
__________________________________________
Our core is consciousness. Therefore death has no meaning in creation.
The history of our earth is thousands of millions of years old. We must create force to save it.
Because all matter originates and Exists only by virtue of a force.
-- max Planck ( Noblest )
_______________________
You are the eyes through which Creation sees itself.
When you wake up from a dream, you realize that everything in the dream was you. You were creating it. It's no different in what we call "real life".
Each and every person is you.
The one consciousness looking through every eye, under every rock, within every particle.
~ Excerpt from the documentary "Inner Worlds, Outer Worlds", by Daniel Schmidt
I am the other you. We Are All One.
#SacredGeometry #UniversalGeometry
#LanguageOfLight #Mathematics
#UniversalMathematics #Math #Philosophy #Art #Geometry #Symmetry #Fractals #Cycles #Universe #Harmony #Vibration #Frequency #Energy #Hermeticism #Life #Manifestation #Alchemy #SpiritualScience #UnifiedScience
#Consciousness #Education #Knowledge
Pure mathematics is composed of relationships within the language called "mathematics" much like discovered relationships in language systems.
The Eternal Soul - The Spirit of God
I mean, no soul has regrets that the current physical form is changing; is about to "die"?
The body never "dies," but merely changes form with the soul. Yet I understand your meaning, so for now I use the vocabulary you have established.
If you have a clear understanding of what you wish to create with regard to what you have chosen to call the afterlife, or if you have a clear set of beliefs that support an after-death experience of reuniting with God, then, no, the soul never, ever has regrets over what you call death.
Death in that instance is a glorious moment; a wonderful experience. Now the soul can return to it's natural form; it's normal state. There is an incredible lightness; a sense of total freedom; a limitlessness. And an awareness of Oneness that is at once blissful and sublime.
It is not possible for the soul to regret such a shift.
You're saying, then, that death is a happy experience?
For the soul that wishes it to be, yes, always.
Well, if the soul wants out of the body so bad, why doesn't it just leave it? Why is it hanging around?
I did not say the soul "wants out of the body," I said the soul is joyful when it is out. Those are two different things.
You can be happy doing one thing, and happy then doing another. The fact that you are joyful doing the second does not mean you were unhappy doing the first.
The soul is not unhappy being in the body. Quite to the contrary, the soul is pleased to be you in your present form. That does not preclude the possibility that the soul might be equally pleased to be disconnected from it.
Why is there such a delay between thought and creation before we die, and no delay at all after we die?
Because you are working within the illusion of time. There is no delay between thought and creation away from the body, because you are also away from the parameter of time.
In other words, as You have said so often, time does not exist.
Not as you understand it. The phenomenon of "time" is really a function of perspective.
Why does it exist while we are in the body?
You have caused it to be moving into, by assuming, your present perspective. You use this perspective as a tool with which you can explore and examine your experiences much more fully, by separating them into individual pieces, rather than a single occurrence.
Life is a single occurrence, an event in the cosmos that is happening right now. All of it is happening. Everywhere.
There is no "time" but now. There is no "place" but here.
Here and now is All There Is.
Yet you choose to experience the magnificence of here and now in its every detail, and to experience your Divine Self as the here and now Creator of that reality.
There were only two ways - two fields of experience - in which you could do that. Time and space.
So magnificent was this thought that you literally exploded with delight!
In that explosion of delight was created space between the parts of you, and the time it took to move from one part of yourself to another.
In this way you literally tore your Self apart to look at the pieces of you. You might say that you were so happy you "fell to pieces."
You been picking up the pieces ever since.
That's all my life is! I'm just putting together the pieces, trying to see if they make any sense.
And it is through the device called time that you have managed to separate the pieces, to divide the indivisible, thus to see it and experience it more fully, as you are creating it.
Even as you look at a solid object through a microscope, seeing that it is not solid at all, but actually a conglomeration of a million different effects - different things all happening at once and thus creating the larger effect - so, too, do you use time as the microscope of your soul.
Consider the Parable of the Rock.
Once there was a Rock, filled with countless atoms, protons, neutrons and subatomic particles of matter. These particles were racing around continually, in a pattern, each particle going from "here" to "there," and taking "time" to do so, yet going so fast that the Rock itself seemed to move not at all. It just was. There it lay, drinking in the sun, soaking up the rain, and moving not at all.
"What is this, inside of me, that is moving?" the Rock asked.
"It is You," said a Voice from Afar.
"Me?" replied the Rock. "Why, that is impossible. I am not moving at all. Anyone can see that."
"Yes, from a distance," the Voice agreed. "From way over here you look as if you are solid, still, not moving. But when I come closer - when I look very closely at what is actually happening - I see that everything that comprises What You Are is moving. It is moving at incredible speed through time and space in a particular pattern which creates You as the thing called 'Rock.' "And so, you are like magic! You are moving and not moving at the same time."
"But," asked the Rock, "which, then, is the illusion? The Oneness, the stillness, of the Rock, or the separateness and the movement of its parts?"
To which the Voice replied, "Which, then, is the illusion? The Oneness, the stillness, of God? Or the separateness and movement of its parts?"
And I tell you this: Upon this Rock, I will build My church. For this is the Rock of Ages.
This is the eternal truth that leaves no stone unturned. I have explained it all for you here, in this little story. This is The Cosmology.
Life is a series of minute, incredibly rapid movements. These movements do not affect at all the immobility and the Beingness of Everything That Is. Yet, just as with the atoms of the rock, it is the movement which is creating the stillness, right before your eyes.
From a distance, there is no separateness. There cannot be, for All That Is is All There Is, and there is nothing else. I am the Unmovrd Mover.
From the limited perspective with which you view All That Is, you see yourself as separate and apart, not one immovable being, but many, many beings, constantly in motion.
Both observations are accurate. Both realities are "real."
And when I "die," I don't die at all, but simply shift into awareness of the macrocosm - where there is no "time" or "space," now and then, before and after.
Precisely. You've got it.
Free will is not free will to change events OUT THERE....all things will have happened....But you can come out of it with come free will over your own emotions and acceptance....In the end....you come out of it just as previously determined....but with a different mind.
It is all there. To be there it has to have a network of parts that work in pattern. We are part of that pattern and we are the only mental pattern that tries to study and understand the pattern itself. Our evolutionary pattern enabled us to adopt our own way of approaching the workings of a pattern that already exists. We are just in the infancy period of attempting to grasp the reality. Depending on how universal our attempt to understand the universe is, it is possible that we are at a stage where we can't continue any further. Is our choice going to face a gridlock? The trouble is we don't have the capacity to know that unless another evolutionary path directs the coming generation a better way, which I think is in itself a gridlock for us.
Do patterns even exist though? Or is it what we might call coincidence. Extreme coincidence..lol
+Demention94 "patterns" is a word.
+jaber4life So is "time"
Sophisticated and subtle mathematics from the point of view of our ape minds.
Wouldn't it be correct to say that mathematics is a description of certain things? I think there tends to be this over complication in our perception of mathematics. It's not a separate thing it is the thing that it's describing. Sorry if I'm being not completely clear.
Chaos reinforces the limits of the mathematics that humans have designed to define our knowledge of the physical world.
Indeed. But remember that chaos itself is a symbol just as mathematics is. What are "limits" and how does one "define" them.
One might also add logical existence to Penrose's triadic list if one supposes that mathematical existence is a universal totality then this Platonic totality is itself a logical obj. or proper class consisting of a union of all logically consistent sets.
240p we meet again ... It's been very long
me pierdo algunas cosas,por que no funcionan los subtitulos?
I like his talk. Very interesting. But i also think that the brain uses just a smart algorithm to understand objects which cannot be expressed in first order logic. Therefore it is (in my humble opinion) no Mystery that we can understand the set of all natural numbers or other holdingproblem-like situations. I think Intuition just tricks us in believing that we know something which cannot be known for sure. Altough i would have no problem if he proofes me wrong.
He is missing it regarding mathematics existing. It hinges on the question, "Is mathematics discovered or invented." Had humans not created mathematical notation which is just a vocabulary for expressing relationships of the physical world, then mathematics would not exist. The laws, theorems, relationships, symmetries and so on would exist, but not the mathematics. That's just an invented language.
Talks of "the universe was there before consciousness" doesn't take into consideration that maybe the Universe is timeless? And that time is irrelevant on some basic level? Maybe its time we move from bottom up to a top bottom approach on some questions?
The camera is out of focus
I disagree. Subjectivity is merely objective things in the context of something else, or someone else. Objective things as filtered through human beings become emotions like love, and the subjective seem different merely because of the lack of understanding for the point of view we experience, what it truly means to be a conscious being.
I tend to agree with Mr. Penrose about the pre-existence of mathematics in some way. The laws of nature are rules and rules is a mental concept itself since it involves choice. If the Universe came out of nothing then how did nothing know to apply any rules at all if there wasn't any rules before that? The question "why is there something rather then nothing" could sound like "why are there any rules rather than no rules at all'? But a lot of scientists today seem to mix nothing with something at all times (or purposely ignore the problem), saying that nothing is in fact a field or a state with its own characteristics etc. I find it very annoying and lazy. I would ask then "why is there something in that nothing rather then nothing at all"?
Penrose and Max Tegmark takes similar stands on this issue.
If we're allowed to imagine a multiverse, then physical law, however simple we can make it in the coming years, is not a 'law' per say, but rather an effect of its own environmental surroundings, 'pushing away' the mystery of its existence and specificity to a greater mystery--maybe the reason gravity is so weak for us is our proximity, or however imagined, to a dense field of it somewhere outside the Universe, maybe "all around" the Universe, causing it to expand toward it... I don't know how we can ever know what's beyond the observable Universe, though I guess we shouldn't say we know everything to discourage ourselves... if we theorize about things that make their existence from other universes known to us, maybe dark matter or energy being two such things, we may be able to know what drives the whole of it.
Could science become as extremely far from a new kind of gathering of evidence for a multiverse as religion is from science today? Would a new science, figuring out in some ultra-direct way, say, that negates the importance of old methods of observation and experimentation, be as viciously assaulted by science? I think honest scientists would hop on board if amazing things were to come of such a new method, but there would be, by that time, incredible interests in keeping old ways, maybe even the same interests at stake as with religion (control of population, debate over morality/ethics of practicing 'new science', etc.)
It's hard for me even to imagine that observation based on cause and effect and mathematics, and ultimately simpler logic might one day be shown to be more or less a 'story' we've allowed ourselves in crude observation of one small part of EVERYTHING, but it might one day happen. I'd definitely opt for a greater truth at that point--you won't see me clinging to something that doesn't apply to a new, broader landscape, where Newton and Einstein might seem to be as superficial to our satisfaction of reality as an old book is...
IMMHO, Platonism is the very problem: mathematics is a language, it is inductively established, and just potentially it is "all there"... and, there we have our bridge! Then, as for the mysterious effectiveness of mathematics, I would rather object that our understanding of the material world, and all the more so any formalisation of that understanding, is one thing, a different thing is the material world in itself. Namely, that effectiveness is just illusory, totally internal to the theory: it is the effectiveness of the observer observing his observation. Not per chance, the ultimate truth is that which cannot be told, i.e. the ultimate truth is never theoretical.
might mathematics originate from and relate to infinite and infinitesimal time?
I believe this: the world of eternal source is the world of truth corresponding to the divine or God world and the physical world is the secondary and temporary world that is always changing and sometimes does not exist. The human body comes from the physical world and goes back and the spirit feels the physical world and interacts with the God world (usually called consciousness). Accordingly, the master of the human is the spirit as God is the owner of the physical world. And thus the life is the process of getting close to God who does not die forever while realizing the truth and growing the spirit. OnCharm Lee
He assumes that we are the only minds that ever existed when he states how could anything exist before our minds and conscious existed
***** linda, dr. penrose said 'it's useful to think of math as not being the creation of our minds, because the universe was around and mathematics was controlling it long before any minds were there'. i think you misheard him.
+Valentin Ramos Cuello this is a question of establishing a science of consciousness. this is a legitimate endeavor. however, since we only know consciousness in ourselves, it's an equally unlikely assumption that it's not independent of our minds. i agree with you, but we don't know either way.
+linda marie You have to see it this way: mathematics is the same for all people and all other animals and all other living creatures elsewhere in the universe.
+linda marie
Before our minds and consciousness existed, Gods mind was busy fine tuning his creation to perfection.
+Naimul Haq you are it. You are that mind of God. Always have been and always will be. "God" is just a word.
The collection plate really exist for all religions.
if God is really greatest, then everything has a basis in reality?
I would like to see a interview with an Advaitic teacher, not just the Western way of thought,although I am in ow by the way things don’t get explained by the Western point of view.
U mean Advait Vedanta view of Reality?
Hi Freddy. You might find this interview interesting - th-cam.com/video/OVgitaOD8fo/w-d-xo.html
To be is to be perceived. You can't have 'things' first and then consciousness arising/evolving from them. Where and when would the universe be without an observer? A 'self' is the guarantor of reality. Phenomena aren't phenomena if they don't appear........
James, If the universe went through a phase of only very very high temperatures , what could have perceived this state? What are the possible entities that can observe matter and its movement?
The universe surely existed for millions of years before anything complex enough to observe it formed. So looking out is looking back in time - it wasn't being observed then, Was it?
Looking back in time, is still looking, isn't it? Calling something 'past' has no meaning without a reference point. The present is only present when there is someone 'present'.
What exists is a huge womb inside which floats water inside which is hidden fire ie. Energy.
Understanding ‘realism’ in the standard philosophical sense, many commenters here seem to be some kind of non-realist realists who want to have their proverbial cake and eat it as well (and a moderately convincing in-between position requires a lot more conceptual sophistication than is on display here). Many of those espousing reductive physicalism are sidestepping the issue/problem of mental existents, or bringing them in through the back door e.g. ‘but doesn’t Penrose know that these are only MENTAL constructions, only products of the human MIND.” And in what does this mind consist? Putting aside considerations of mind and consciousness in-themselves, do ethical and aesthetic values exist? If yes, are these physical and observable? More generally, it takes a hell of a lot of hubris to think that one knows the certain truth of matters that have vexed the greatest philosophers for thousands of years (and many of the scientists and mathematicians who have seriously pondered them). But if false certainty in the name of ‘reason’ or ‘science’ (which is no better than in the name of mysticism, religion, etc) is what gives you psychological comfort...
Singular = phenomenon.
Plural = phenomena.
Down at the Planck lenght all is 'impossible' triangles, and Consciousness is an emergent and inherent part of matter and space-time. We still need to find a few other particle fields beyond the Higgs, and perhaps LIGO and such can find the reverberations of inflation before the 380.000 year mark. Entanglement will explain why dark stuff, gravity and other fields permeates the Universe through multi-dimensional connections. Roger Penrose is a genius. :)
1 Corinthians 2:6-16
God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 However, as it is written: “What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived” - the things God has prepared for those who love him-
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.
13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.
14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,
16 for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?”But we have the mind of Christ.
Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne ... everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. (Matthew 19:28-29)
“The soul consciousness can say … “I and my Father[Spirit] are one.” The deluded ego consciousness says, “I am the body; this is my family and name; these are my possessions.”
~ P. Yogananda
“Soul is the essential radiance of God, the Divine Mind; and individualized souls partake of that same reality, though by their connection to body, they are confined to time and space. These souls, enamored of the material world, become disoriented, bound by their own attachment to matter; but by a deliberate reversal of its intention, an individualized soul is able to look within, examine itself, and ‘see’ its Origin, its higher Self, thereby regaining awareness of its true, eternal identity. …… And he is capable of directly experiencing that Divine Identity within himself.” ~ Swami Abhayananda
“When in inner union he is beyond the world of the body, then the world of the Spirit is found where man possesses all - for he is one with the One.” ~ Svetasvatara Upanishad
“I am nothing else but that supreme Self which is eternal, pure, liberated, one, unbroken Bliss, undivided Existence, and unlimited Knowledge.” ~ Shankaracharya
“A drunken man does not notice whether he is wearing his shawl or whether it has fallen off, so the Realised Man is hardly aware of his body and it makes no difference to him whether it remains or drops off.” ~ Ramana Maharshi
“Being is the eternal, ever-present One Life beyond the myriad forms of life that are subject to birth and death. However, Being is not only beyond but also deep within every form as its innermost invisible and indestructible essence. This means that is accessible to you now as your own deepest self, your true nature. But don't seek to grasp it with your mind. Don't try to understand it. You can know it only when the mind is still.” ~ Eckhart Tolle
“Insofar as the genuine mystic is totally emptied of “self” and becomes a pure instrument of God, he or she may honestly and truly declare “I am awake,” as did the Buddha, or “I and the Father are One” as did Jesus, where the “I” refers not to the human instrument, but to God.” ~ Thomas J. McFarlane
“Thou art He, without one of these limitations.” ~ Ibn Arabi
“Is this living Splendor, this beaming Sun of Life, beyond the slightest touch of earthly sorrow, suffering or pain, my real Self? O wonder of wonders, am I this immortal Being, happy beyond measure.” ~ Gopi Krishna
“Before the world was, you were, and when the world is no longer, you remain” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj
“You yourself are God, the Supreme Reality.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj
“We are not only permeated by God’s Consciousness, we are made of His essence; we are projections of His light. And our consciousness is essentially identical with the Consciousness of God.” ~ Swami Abhayananda
“A visiting Irish journalist asked her, “Am I right to believe that you are God?” to which Sri Ma replied, “There is nothing save He alone; everyone and everything is a form of God. In your person also He has come.” ~ Anandamoyi Ma
“Right knowledge, destroying ignorance, dissolves the ego-sense consciousness of oneness with the immortal Atman, seated in your heart, and pervading all life and form in the universe.” ~ Papa Ramdas
“Forget not that you are the immortal and blissful Spirit.”
~ Papa Ramdas
“Consider not that you are merely a perishable and changing being; you are the absolute, immortal, changeless, omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient Truth.”~ Papa Ramdas
“Throw off the mask that enshrouds your real Divine nature and reveal yourself in all your magnificence.” ~ Papa Ramdas
“Since most of us exist on a lower level of consciousness, we do not experience ourselves as the divine Self; instead, we experience ourselves as individual souls with distinctly unique attributes, and we deal with others as individuals with unique attributes - though in fact, there is only the one Divinity living and acting in the world as individual souls.” ~ Swami Abhayananda
“At the highest, or deepest, spiritual level, there are no souls; there is only the divine Self ... it is realized by enlightened sages as the highest truth, the sole source and origin of all the manifest planes of existence, and everyone’s ultimate identity.” ~ Swami Abhayananda
Quotations on Comparison of ego-consciousness and god-consciousness
“You see yourself in the world, while I see the world in myself. To you, you get born and die, while to me the world appears and disappears.” ~ Nisargadatta Maharaj
“Mind is consciousness which has put on limitations. You are originally unlimited and perfect. Later you take on limitations and become the mind.” ~ Ramana Maharshi
In this case unrestricted Platonic existence would be quaternary and thus teleologically a totality in keeping w/ the unus mundus of Jung and Pauli.
Penrose explains nothing here. Math is a language like English and it can be used to predict some of the behavior of physical reality. But math does not make the reality real any more than I do when I say “Let there be a pile of gold coins at the foot of my bed” makes that happen. It’s just a language and it doesn’t create reality.
It is so easy for even well educated humans like Penrose to get the whole thing so bassakwards that it surprises me more than any other fact about humans.
Agreed. Even if there is some ontological nature of "math", it doesn't make the math we use any more real, it just means there's something akin to math with independent existence.
It's the same mistake people make with consciousness. "Consciousness" is just a label we put on a collection of particular subjective experiences. Even if it weren't reducible to brain activity, that wouldn't make consciousness real, it would mean some other thing is required.
People, stop trying to make the abstraction less abstract, you only make yourself look foolish.
Does information always boil down to mathematics?
It does, actually. In essence, the entire notion of information is derived from Information Theory itself, which comes from the branch of Computer Science, which comes from the branch of Applied Mathematics, which ultimately, is derived from the realm of pure, abstract mathematics.
What is "information" beyond a word? You will fail invariably to say because the metaphysical is more than just words.
jaber4life
Actually information represents mathematical patterns.
I think a detailed description of the shifting dynamics of the universe and the interplay of all things from the very small to the very large would be beyond a mathematical description. A computer with the capacity to calculate such quantities of data would be so massive that it would be destroyed by gravity.
AlmostEthical
1) That's why you have quantum computing.
2) Mathematical objects called fractals have contributed significantly to the compression of data that simultaneously allows for the creation of complex systems using simple reiterative rules.