Very nice finish of the model and analysis. I hope I could get to that level of detail too. I would still try to taxi it and see if it lifts. I think you need a 1:1 ratio of thrust if you want a vertical take off. Being a biplane you have quite a lot of lift, it just needs to move forward fast enough. Just my thoughts, but don't take my word for it as I am also struggling with weight on my models. Keep us posted!
Thanks mate! You and I are both following the master (Cliff!) - so I'm sure you can do it. I have some vibration in my new motor, once I fix it I will test it for sure - and post the video! :-)
What happens Tim if you hold the model vertically with full throttle, does it fall back horribly or try and lift its weight? A geared motor would give you a bigger prop. When you weigh a model I put a large bowl on the scale, 'tare' it to zero, then you have a nice big surface to put the model on. And lastly I think I would try it on the ground and just see if it gathers speed, you may be surprised! Oh, one other thing, I would be tempted to have less down movement on the ailerons to help prevent adverse yaw. Nice job mate 👍
Thanks Cliff - so I tried that, and (with the new motor), its somewhere in between, not quite up to lifting it's own weight. But I'm getting a horrible vibration above 3/4 throttle so I think the adaptor and/or prop isn't balanced so I need to deal with that now. I've put a max of 60% weight in on the ailerons, but are you suggesting less down than up? So much fun! :-)
@@timtheplaneman That's a dead weight lift and doesn't include the lifting power of the aerofoil, it should be fine. I'm a great one for giving it a go, the reality of forumulas (for me at least) is try something in the real World then go back to the drawing board and have a rethink. It's more fun that way lol. Props out of balance are easily sorted. Regarding the ailerons, yes, more up than down. I have one biplane that has a very poor down linkage which I inherited, the down movement is almost zero but she turns a treat, the downward aileron is more efficient than the up so by having more up than down it balances the differential, cheers.
Prop blanking kills a lot of thrust, need a motor that can spin a larger prop, then deal with torque and swirling prop blast on fin/rudder. Also need to build tail feathers and rear structure as light as possible and mount everything as far forward as practical to avoid need for excessive nose ballast on these short nosed models.
Yes I was worried about that and I have put in a bigger motor. I'll see how it goes when I maiden it in the spring. Worst case I've built it so it's easy to replace the motor, so I'll upgrade if I have to. Thanks for watching and stay tuned ...
The lift to drag ratio might be in the area of 4:1 or 6:1. Thrust equals drag in horizontal flight. Thrust does not need to equal weight. Static thrust is not a valid measure of thrust in flight. Turning in still air, the prop blade will not have the attack angle to develop proper thrust. Use the biggest prop you can fit.
I used what is called "CA hinges" simple, lightweight and work great. I'm sure I talked about it in one of my Sopwith videos, but I can't remember which one. Use search or google - many people have good explanations and videos about them. You can for sure buy them from your hobby shop or online.
@@timtheplaneman Thanks for the reply. Hinges are not the problem, it’s the installation. On the lower wing I’m guessing I cut slots in the middle of MA1 & 2 and rudder/tail maybe alternate hinges since I don’t believe I can cut slots.
@@Ken-nj1rm I managed to cut slots for all of them. But I built my vertical stabilizer and rudder using the solid wood option (my version of the kit had 3 different tailplane options).
@@Ken-nj1rm Oh for the ailerons I used nylon hinges. There are mounting blocks for the ailerons between MA3 and MA4 (on my plan) and I just cut slots for them in those mounting blocks.
Battery hatch is very neat, and much simpler than I’ve been trying to figure out. I did notice the small motor when you were showing the cowl assembly in the previous video. How much thrust is needed for scale flight? Is there a formula or “rule of thumb” guide?
Thanks for watching! I'm going with "around 1:1" thrust/weight ratio, assuming slightly less is ok for scale flight which is what I'm hoping for. If anyone has any better suggestions I'm all ears.
@@timtheplaneman 1:1 is not an appropriate target. That would enable the plane to hover! A full size Cessna 172 is apparently 23%. One source I found regarding models said: "with this in mind, for gliders or light and slow-flying model aircraft, a ratio of between 0.3: 1 to 0.4: 1 on trainer models from 0.5: 1 to 0.8: 1 and on fast models from 0.8: 1 onwards" As Cliff mentioned, a geared motor will enable you to turn a bigger prop - or get one with a much lower kV.
Propellers actually “pull” the a/c through the air, not “push”. The propeller blade acts as a wing producing lift in a forward direction. This action is greatly misunderstood. Should work just fine. 😊
You are absolutely right. After I filmed this video I saw what you saw, so I have fixed it by reversing it in the transmitter. I've also dialled down the weight on the ailerons and rudder which had way too much throw. Thanks so much for watching.
@@timtheplaneman It seems that your ailerons are working in the opposite direction also. Left on the control should make the left aileron go up and the right aileron go down.
@@petterstrand2700 well spotted. Yes of course there is a lot of tuning required before the plane is truly ready. I've actually done this - reversed the ailerons and elevator, turned down the throws, and actually I've replaced the motor you see here with a more powerful one. Videos are done, and will go online soon. Thanks so much for watching!
I am surprised you don’t think 200g thrust isn’t enough ? Let’s face it the real camel surely couldn’t have had anything approaching 1 to 1 thrust ? So 1 to 2/3 would work ?
It definitely wasn't enough. I don't have video, but when I flew it (with an upgraded motor), it didn't have enough power simply put. I used so much lead weight to get the CoG right, I would have been much better off just going for a much bigger, more powerful motor.
Hi Bucky - I haven't flown it yet. I'm really nervous to try it without absolutely perfect weather and because its tissue covered, I've been waiting for perfectly dry conditions. I'll post the maiden as soon as I try it. Thanks for watching!
You haven’t mentioned c of g. With a larger motor you might get it somewhere near correct. I am just finishing mine, but it will be free flight. If you buy one with a low kv rating it will swing a larger prop. I can’t see a flying video. Did it fly ok. Did you fly over long grass. Did you get the c of g forward enough. That nose is the shortest ever. I suspect not,because this is not a beginners model. A tail heavy underpowered scale model is the last thing you are going to succeed with. That undercarriage is unlikely to survive a landing. Those orange propellers only last one landing. Best to join a club or find an expert friend. Aeromodellers is a long journey but great fun on the learning curve. What is the range of your transmitter?
I do cover Center of Gravity in one of my other Sopwith Camel videos. It's a bit tricky to figure out based on these old plans for what was basically a free flight design, but you are right - it needs lots of weight up front to get that right and that weight can most usefully come from a quite large motor which will also produce a lot of thrust. Lesson: Don't skimp on the motor, a heavy, powerful motor will probably be just what this beautiful plane needs.
I tried an experiment using plastic cling wrap first under the tissue - its supposed to add a lot of strength over just plain tissue. As you see it didn't go well. Others have tried this with better results, I think the wrinkles happened because I used Exe-Dope, but I'm not really sure.
I like the subject matter, but that is a terribly sloppy looking build….. serious lack of craftsmanship and attention to detail. It’s no wonder the plane is overweight.
Yeah I'm a bit disappointed with the finish. See my "Doping Disaster" experiment for an explanation, or see my Fokker "Magic Unboxing" for a much better job of finishing. Thanks for watching.
got one due off my son for my bday in two weeks..( my kids know what makes me smile pressie wise.. :-) )
It's a lot of fun to build. Thanks for watching!
beautiful! if i could build one like that i'd be afraid to fly it.
Guillows models make great static display models too. I enjoyed building it and thank you!
That’s really a beautiful plane you built
Thank you! I really think so.
Very nice build and informative video. Thank you for making this video and sharing your insights!
Thanks Barry, I really appreciate that. Stay tuned for the maiden flight - but probably in the spring, it's snowing here!
Very nice finish of the model and analysis. I hope I could get to that level of detail too. I would still try to taxi it and see if it lifts. I think you need a 1:1 ratio of thrust if you want a vertical take off. Being a biplane you have quite a lot of lift, it just needs to move forward fast enough. Just my thoughts, but don't take my word for it as I am also struggling with weight on my models. Keep us posted!
Thanks mate! You and I are both following the master (Cliff!) - so I'm sure you can do it. I have some vibration in my new motor, once I fix it I will test it for sure - and post the video! :-)
Hi Tim 👋👋👋👋
What happens Tim if you hold the model vertically with full throttle, does it fall back horribly or try and lift its weight? A geared motor would give you a bigger prop. When you weigh a model I put a large bowl on the scale, 'tare' it to zero, then you have a nice big surface to put the model on. And lastly I think I would try it on the ground and just see if it gathers speed, you may be surprised! Oh, one other thing, I would be tempted to have less down movement on the ailerons to help prevent adverse yaw. Nice job mate 👍
Thanks Cliff - so I tried that, and (with the new motor), its somewhere in between, not quite up to lifting it's own weight. But I'm getting a horrible vibration above 3/4 throttle so I think the adaptor and/or prop isn't balanced so I need to deal with that now. I've put a max of 60% weight in on the ailerons, but are you suggesting less down than up? So much fun! :-)
@@timtheplaneman That's a dead weight lift and doesn't include the lifting power of the aerofoil, it should be fine. I'm a great one for giving it a go, the reality of forumulas (for me at least) is try something in the real World then go back to the drawing board and have a rethink. It's more fun that way lol. Props out of balance are easily sorted. Regarding the ailerons, yes, more up than down. I have one biplane that has a very poor down linkage which I inherited, the down movement is almost zero but she turns a treat, the downward aileron is more efficient than the up so by having more up than down it balances the differential, cheers.
That is one interesting Accent you have got going there Tim. Can you tell people how you got it or do you want me to do it for you?
very nice! Curious to know how/if it will fly
Hi Lutz- yes me too. I will post a video whether it flies or crashes!
wow! very cool man!
Thanks for the visit
Prop blanking kills a lot of thrust, need a motor that can spin a larger prop, then deal with torque and swirling prop blast on fin/rudder.
Also need to build tail feathers and rear structure as light as possible and mount everything as far forward as practical to avoid need for excessive nose ballast on these short nosed models.
Yes I was worried about that and I have put in a bigger motor. I'll see how it goes when I maiden it in the spring. Worst case I've built it so it's easy to replace the motor, so I'll upgrade if I have to. Thanks for watching and stay tuned ...
The lift to drag ratio might be in the area of 4:1 or 6:1. Thrust equals drag in horizontal flight. Thrust does not need to equal weight. Static thrust is not a valid measure of thrust in flight. Turning in still air, the prop blade will not have the attack angle to develop proper thrust. Use the biggest prop you can fit.
Thanks so much for the suggestions. I'm still learning and this helps a lot.
Did you get the Biggles addition?
I've got no hair left to comb! 😀
I almost finished my Kit #801. Question, trying to find information on how to install hinges for airerons, tail and rudder.
I used what is called "CA hinges" simple, lightweight and work great. I'm sure I talked about it in one of my Sopwith videos, but I can't remember which one. Use search or google - many people have good explanations and videos about them. You can for sure buy them from your hobby shop or online.
@@timtheplaneman Thanks for the reply. Hinges are not the problem, it’s the installation. On the lower wing I’m guessing I cut slots in the middle of MA1 & 2 and rudder/tail maybe alternate hinges since I don’t believe I can cut slots.
@@Ken-nj1rm I managed to cut slots for all of them. But I built my vertical stabilizer and rudder using the solid wood option (my version of the kit had 3 different tailplane options).
@@Ken-nj1rm Oh for the ailerons I used nylon hinges. There are mounting blocks for the ailerons between MA3 and MA4 (on my plan) and I just cut slots for them in those mounting blocks.
@@timtheplaneman Thank You for your time! I’m retired living in Colombia, so my resources are limited 😊
Looks like your elevator and aileron throws are reversed.
Yup they were. I did fix it before trying to fly. Thanks for watching.
Battery hatch is very neat, and much simpler than I’ve been trying to figure out. I did notice the small motor when you were showing the cowl assembly in the previous video.
How much thrust is needed for scale flight?
Is there a formula or “rule of thumb” guide?
Thanks for watching! I'm going with "around 1:1" thrust/weight ratio, assuming slightly less is ok for scale flight which is what I'm hoping for. If anyone has any better suggestions I'm all ears.
@@timtheplaneman 1:1 is not an appropriate target. That would enable the plane to hover!
A full size Cessna 172 is apparently 23%.
One source I found regarding models said: "with this in mind, for gliders or light and slow-flying model aircraft, a ratio of between 0.3: 1 to 0.4: 1 on trainer models from 0.5: 1 to 0.8: 1 and on fast models from 0.8: 1 onwards"
As Cliff mentioned, a geared motor will enable you to turn a bigger prop - or get one with a much lower kV.
@@RichardTapp1 Thanks Richard, yes I'm learning a lot with this one. I'm fairly sure the motor I have now will work. Stay tuned!
tMT 👍
Propellers actually “pull” the a/c through the air, not “push”. The propeller blade acts as a wing producing lift in a forward direction. This action is greatly misunderstood. Should work just fine. 😊
Thanks that's a great way to look at it. Turns out this motor was underpowered anyway. Thanks for watching.
Your elevator is working in the opposite direction Tim, reverse it.
You are absolutely right. After I filmed this video I saw what you saw, so I have fixed it by reversing it in the transmitter. I've also dialled down the weight on the ailerons and rudder which had way too much throw. Thanks so much for watching.
@@timtheplaneman It seems that your ailerons are working in the opposite direction also. Left on the control should make the left aileron go up and the right aileron go down.
@@petterstrand2700 well spotted. Yes of course there is a lot of tuning required before the plane is truly ready. I've actually done this - reversed the ailerons and elevator, turned down the throws, and actually I've replaced the motor you see here with a more powerful one. Videos are done, and will go online soon. Thanks so much for watching!
And the weighing is tricky isn’t it
I am surprised you don’t think 200g thrust isn’t enough ? Let’s face it the real camel surely couldn’t have had anything approaching 1 to 1 thrust ? So 1 to 2/3 would work ?
It definitely wasn't enough. I don't have video, but when I flew it (with an upgraded motor), it didn't have enough power simply put. I used so much lead weight to get the CoG right, I would have been much better off just going for a much bigger, more powerful motor.
@@timtheplaneman wow ok hope you got it sorted thanks for reply
post vid of it flying
Hi Bucky - I haven't flown it yet. I'm really nervous to try it without absolutely perfect weather and because its tissue covered, I've been waiting for perfectly dry conditions. I'll post the maiden as soon as I try it. Thanks for watching!
You haven’t mentioned c of g. With a larger motor you might get it somewhere near correct. I am just finishing mine, but it will be free flight. If you buy one with a low kv rating it will swing a larger prop. I can’t see a flying video. Did it fly ok. Did you fly over long grass. Did you get the c of g forward enough. That nose is the shortest ever. I suspect not,because this is not a beginners model. A tail heavy underpowered scale model is the last thing you are going to succeed with. That undercarriage is unlikely to survive a landing. Those orange propellers only last one landing. Best to join a club or find an expert friend. Aeromodellers is a long journey but great fun on the learning curve. What is the range of your transmitter?
I do cover Center of Gravity in one of my other Sopwith Camel videos. It's a bit tricky to figure out based on these old plans for what was basically a free flight design, but you are right - it needs lots of weight up front to get that right and that weight can most usefully come from a quite large motor which will also produce a lot of thrust. Lesson: Don't skimp on the motor, a heavy, powerful motor will probably be just what this beautiful plane needs.
I would never try to fly this plane because of the risks. The best answer to any RC plane power is always 1000KV 4S and APC (7x4) for me.
I also like to mount the batteries external so they will drop during a bad landing and you will have great cooling when temperatures are high.
Thanks for watching. Some interesting ideas.
Prop seems to be too small. Ok, you see it.
Thanks for watching. This was definitely a challenging project.
Are you a Pirate ? I mean what the hell is up with those earrings ?
Sure a Pirate! Why not? 🙂
Why are there wrinkles all over the wing, you dont know how to apply the tissue dude.
I tried an experiment using plastic cling wrap first under the tissue - its supposed to add a lot of strength over just plain tissue. As you see it didn't go well. Others have tried this with better results, I think the wrinkles happened because I used Exe-Dope, but I'm not really sure.
I like the subject matter, but that is a terribly sloppy looking build….. serious lack of craftsmanship and attention to detail. It’s no wonder the plane is overweight.
Yeah I'm a bit disappointed with the finish. See my "Doping Disaster" experiment for an explanation, or see my Fokker "Magic Unboxing" for a much better job of finishing. Thanks for watching.
@@timtheplaneman I will take a look to see what happened….