History and review for 2nd Edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, published by TSR from 1989 to 2000. DriveThruRPG link to AD&D 2nd Edition: www.drivethrur...
It feels really weird to hear AD&D 2nd Edition talked about in the past tense! It's the only version of the game I've played for the last twenty five years. In fact, I've got two different long-term campaigns going at the moment that have been running for a few years now.
And here I thought I was the only one that never followed suit when 3e came out. This makes me feel less alone over here. Big difference being, however, that I never had anyone to play with over the past 20+ years, since my 2e friends all moved away circa 2000. I've been building my book collection back up over the past few years though and I'm finally playing 2e with my wife in the Al-Qadim setting now. I never realized how much of this has remained ingrained in me, although dormant, for all of these years.
@@OldSkullTTGer I'm another one. I never liked 3e. Far too many of the lore and tonal changes got under my skin, and I just didn't think the rule overhaul was necessary. Plus, my favorite setting, Planescape, was in 2e, so there was no reason to update it for another rule set I didn't like anyway.
I started with the basic set then progressed into 1st edition and then into 2nd edition. 3rd edition turned me off and I went back to 2nd where I felt comfortable. The newer versions are even worse. 2nd edition rules simply are superior to every thing else.
@@louiselockett2905 I still prefer first but I found products for the two largely compatible with each other and there were bits from second I adopted, most of second was merely clarification or tidying up of elements in first and rolling in some of the stuff from articles for first found in the pages of Dragon, so I mostly consider the two as the same rules anyway, handbooks aside that is, I chose to ignore the brown handbooks entirely. 🤔 I loath most of the artwork in the the second edition books mind 😁 not that the art in the first edition isn't crappy, it's crappy but I don't loath the first editions art while I do the seconds .. go figure 😕 I guess seconds just somehow offends my sense of aesthetic for D&D [shrugs] .. but I absolutely hate it. Later editions art is even worse for me. But that's irrelevant to my view of the rules in second which are good.
Thank-you :) I know a lot of people stick to the 15-minute mark or thereabouts, and cover long subjects episodically. But - well, especially for games, it makes more sense to me to just go for it. I mean, watchers can watch episodically with the pause button ;)
This is the best evaluation of 2E on TH-cam. Straight forward and detailed. I started playing in 1983 with the red box, moved on to 1E then 2E. I never moved on from that. Good times.
2nd Edition - the main edition I played and the edition that was my favourite. 🤗 I've taken a 25 year break from pen and paper D&D, but now that I've started playing again, I equally appreciate all the editions I own (BECMI, 1st, 2nd), plus I like a lot of what I experienced of 3rd Edition when playing D&D computer games).
Great Review! It's amazing how the 2nd ed has been relegated to oblivion. Much is said about B / EX and much of the OSR movement focuses on it, but a lot of generation X players, started to play with AD&D 2nd ed. Thx from Barcelona, Spain.
Thanks for this in depth flash back to a golden era of the game. This is the edition of the game that our local group of delvers played the most in. We still to this day tell stories of 2nd ed play that happened many many years ago. Cheers from Canada :)
My guy - I gotta say. I subbed to your channel because I saw the THUMNBNAIL of this video. I was like, "if anybody is gonna have a reputable opinion of AD&D 2e its this guy." Can't wait to hear your opinion - as a relatively new player I'm FASCINATED by these older editions.
I really enjoyed your review. I started with AD&D 1E in 1984 then moved to 2E. I prefer 2E over any other edition of the game as well. For me, the strongest selling point is that it's the You Can Try To Do It attitude. If you're creative you get really far and are rewarded for it. You're rewarded for the risks you take as well. The DM is expected to be an adjudicator of the action on top of being a storyteller. It's the last hurrah for this type of playstyle. Future editions became You Can't Do It Without X Feat or Skill and the DM restricted to what he could do.
There is a certain element of "you can try..." in both 3E and 5E - but you're right, it's not really highlighted in that way. Obscured by the plethora of skills and feats (in 3E), and not explicitly noted so much (in 5E). The main caveat there is more that those editions specifically codify that sort of thing, whereas editions previous to 3E left it up to the DM to figure out. Mileage varies from individual to individual as to which is best from those two options - like you, I much prefer DM interpretation.
I was 14/15 years young when the 2E PHB was released. I already owned the 1E core books for a couple of years and we loved it, many great gaming experiences and memories. I remember our group being somewhat skeptical about 2E without even giving it a look but a curious few of us decided to split the cost of buying the PHB in case it was a "dog". After a comparatively easy first read, I don't think we ever looked back to 1E! I first read the 1E DMG and PHB at the age of 12 and found them to be quite dry and easy to put down after a few pages, not the case at all with 2E. I'm sure I had a slightly better attention span but I think it's safe to say that 2E is a much easier read for a 12 year old than 1E. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that 2E definitely helped gain a broader/younger play base with it's updated and approachable style.
1st Edition certainly has its own flavour of language - yes, quite "textbook" and dry, but that was (more or less) the norm for the day. Plus, the technology for laying out books developed a lot between those editions. You're right in saying the books were easier to plough through, but I will still contend that the sheer amount of content (dry or not) in the 1st Edition DMG surpasses its 2nd Edition counterpart. No contest with the PHBs, though - 2nd Ed wins there, in good part because of the things you mention!
AD&D 2e was my D&D. It wasn't the first I played, but it was the one we played when I was in highschool and beyond. The rules were second nature and we rarely had to give them a second thought. Upon reflection I suppose this *was* the era of excess that did TSR in, but I can't help loving the game. I have tremendous affection for most of the 2e campaign settings -- they were absolutely magical to me.
This is the best Editon Era review i watched. Congratulations, sir. You really make me considered things and put some issues in perspective. I consider the AD&D 2nd the last hobbist edition. 50 years of D&D and the generic modules still are considered the greatest by the fanbase because (guess what)... they are modulars.
Like you, I am interested in history, including that of our hobby. I just watched this vid again today and want to say I find there is so much good information presented here that watching several times is always rewarding. In fact, I have viewed several of the videos in this series a number of times and have learned something new with each viewing. I am also entertained. What's not to like! Cheers!
I fully appreciate where you are coming from with regards to the Forgotten Realms. Way back in the 80s I was a ravenous reader of fantasy literature, lots of spare time on long deployments. So I really got into the Forgotten Realms, and as a DM loved all of the lore. However, as I got older, and moved into civvy life, I had far less free time, and the shear volume and rate of change to the game and setting just became a labor, rather than a joy. I ran slow burn games where real time was faster than campaign time, so completely uprooting the game world every few years was a non-starter. I also began to despair at the amount of "fluff" that was surrounding AD&D, and so my games stuck to AD&D2e, with nothing introduced from anything outside of the core game, like you said, the core Players Handbook was basically a complete game. All of this eventually lead me to looking at other systems which I had only in passing shown any interest in. Runequest, Harnmaster and Rolemaster all come to mind, as well as a good few others. AD&D still holds that special place as the first TTRPG that introduced me to the hobby, but its direction and more importantly, constant need to reinvent itself pushed me away, and for that I should be thankful, because if it had not I would not have rediscovered Runequest/Mythras.
Your experiences don't sound too dissimilar to mine. In my opinion, the World of Greyhawk set represents exactly how much a published setting should set down (adventures aside), which allows a DM to take it in whatever direction they like from there. D&D became plagued with too many settings, involving too much "canon" (which, to my mind, is a daft thing to have within such a dynamic forum as role-playing). "No!" a player cries, "Forgotten GreyLance Sun Elves aren't like that!". "But", says I, "this 'ere Master book I have here says 'change what you wanna', and this 'ere campaign setting book says 'make the thing your own', so... Yeah, yes they are :P" Beyond that, the conflict of fiction vs. game starts getting annoying when key factors don't even show up in said "canon" - at least, until their effects have been outed in novels (if at all). It's almost like certain game companies want you to play their settings, but don't want you to know enough about the metaplots they have on the boil to be able to use them in any direct way. The Forgotten Realms is a big sinner in this department - but so is the BattleTech universe, which still hasn't explained certain "setting secrets" from decades ago. But hey ho... I know all of the secrets of my own campaign, so I'm all good :)
The loss of TSR was definitely sad. Market forces aside, growing up I enjoyed mixing ideas from many different settings -- Plancescape, in particular, was good for this because of the multiverse theme. Loved the Sha'irs handbook from Al-Qadim too.
Fantastic videos. As some one coming into 5E as their first play through. Having some one as knowledgeable as your self is really insightful. Keep up the great videos.
The one thing that pushed me away from FR was the metaplot, because there were groups that demanded that you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the setting and adhere to the metaplot. “If you would have read the last five novels then you would know that Elminster had a bowel movement that destroyed such and such a town, and that allowed the Zhents to resurrect such and such a deity.” On the other hand, there were other groups that only used a basic skeleton version of the Realms; one of my DMs in the late 90’s had a laid back approach to the setting. You never knew what sort of group you would encounter, so it was always a gamble.
That's always been an issue with commercial settings. And a large part of why I generally don't use them. No metaplot issues if you've made it all up :)
I started playing in 89 myself so I started in 2nd edition and I have since played every edition of the game except the Holmes Revision. I enjoyed your video, it brought back a lot of memories.
2e is the one I played first and most. Speaking of psionics, when the 2e psionic rules came out, I found them to be an absolute minefield of OP madness!!
They could be that in 1st, too! Personally, if you incorporate psionics, you need to account for them instead of just presenting them as another option for PCs. Dark Sun does that very well, with much of it's gaming structure built on the presence of psionics. And adding in those things that are attracted to psionics - thought eaters and the like - can make players think twice about using them everywhere.
It fascinates me to hear other people's experiences and takes on 2nd Edition. I started on the cusp of 1st and 2nd, and really introduced to the whole thing through Dragonlance Novels. I struggled with the issue of meta narrative, or "meta plots," as you say, as a setting needed to be a place where the player characters were driving the story, and where the choices they make were meaningful and made a long lasting impact. So I gravitated towards the Forgotten Realms as it seemed more of a place where there were many stories. It had "room" for the players to make their stamp, unlike Dragonlance. Dragonlance is a story. The Forgotten Realms is a place. That was the fundamental difference to me.
I'm inclined to agree, with the caveat that the Realms suffers its own form of metaplot - usually when it prepares for a new edition of D&D. The Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, that sort of thing. But yes, it has space galore to play in! Personally, I prefer my own setting. No danger of those pesky metaplotters there!
@Willy Muffin - I run the FR but just ignore the "metaplot". I use the lore and settings, but the Time of Troubles et all are totally discarded. I am currently running a campaign where Cormyr is blown up, Azoun is killed, Vangy is killed and the Cult of Tiamat takes over the nation. Total chaos! LOL
46:16 this is sort of the mind-blowing aspect of it. The sheer amount of campaign settings and novels. Where I lived at the time, I barely met anyone that knew how to run this stuff. If you could find a GM you were lucky. The stuff must have been selling though for them to have churned out so much of it.
From interviews with figures like Peter Adkinson, and the ultimate bankruptcy of TSR and purchase by WotC - it wasn't necessarily selling. At least, not well. Adkinson has told of warehouse full of unsold/returned stock, and you can draw a definite line at the WotC purchase - after which, campaign settings and source was severely curtailed until 3E, and has never come close to the 2nd Ed. output during any WotC edition period since.
Ian, I still use the stuff you emailed me in 2000 for my Sherwood Adventures 3e campaign - now using Castles & Crusades. And I liberally use 2e materials with it. Thank you again!
I was one of those guys that tried to get everything they put out. Failed miserably, but still tried (Life got in the way some). I do have a nice collection of AD&D and AD&D 2e from it though. I LOVED the novels (Forgotten Realms) read others but bought and read every FR I could get. I appreciate your time and effort and thank you for the trip down memory lane.
Thank-you for commenting :) And kudos for the attempt. The volume of stuff TSR kicked out did not make that an easy task! The novels are hit and miss for me. Some I love to bits. Others had a battle to keep my interest. And others still didn't excite me enough to even bother at all. There were a hell of a lot of them, divided between a relatively low number of authors - they may have done better (in my opinion, of course) with fewer novels that had more time devoted to them. But, as with all things creative - mileage varies.
Your video was enjoyable. Unfortunately, I am one of those naysayers, that thinks had TSR survived it would of only been to be gobbled up by a company like Hasbro. The truth sad part is I've seen how many similar mistakes of flooding the market and ignoring the fans has been repeated several times. This is a very informative history lesson in addition to being a review of the AD&D era.
I still play AD&D 2E to this day. To me it’s the best for a couple reasons. It’s more challenging than more recent editions. You go into every fight from a point of weakness rather than power. And what I enjoy the most is the different rule options. If you wanna do something, there’s a rule that makes it possible and balances it out. Obviously you can home brew any edition. But 2E gives you in my opinion the most amount of options youre not forced to homebrew if you don’t want to make the effort. That being said I have every 2E book and some of the compendium sets are $400+ and single books almost $200. Luckily I got them all when they were $10-25 and avail in used bookstores
All good reasons, but subjective ones. I'd argue that 3E is the edition that presents the most custom options, both within the official and the very extensive D20 works, rather than 2nd. But again, that's subjective opinion and does depend on what directions you're customising in. For folks just after the material, rather than the originals for collections, all of the Compendiums are available via DriveThruRPG - 2nd Ed. still lives. (It also remains the edition that I've played most over the years, mainly because it was the tournament standard during the 1990s - fond memories)
I am new to Dungeons & Dragons I will be playing my first game about two weeks and I'm super excited. I've been trying to do some research but everything is 4th edition and 5th edition very hard to find information on older stuff. I'm very thankful for your channel and the information you give, I appreciate it very much
I'm glad you find them useful. Good luck for your first game! Don't be worried if anything seems confusing at first - it'll figure itself out. By far the best way to learn is to play :)
Some kits modified classes more than others mechanically. The Blade Singer from the Elves' Handbook springs first to mind. Some kits allowed non human characters thematic access to classes that were otherwise restricted, like the Bard's Handbook had a dwarven chanter or an elven miestersinger, halfling whistler, etc. (Not sure if I remember those titles exactly.) While a Barbarian only had adjustments to social reaction rolls from NPCs. So some kits were more of a heavy lift than others.
I did go mad for kits for a brief period, making them up for different cultural variants within my campaign world. They were a nice idea, particularly in those days when the previous option was to create a plethora of vaguely different classes.
Hi Ian I know I am late to the comments but I just found your videos. I like how you take the time to explain the history of D&D. Talking about the basic things you need to get started in every edition has helped me out. I got the second edition core books when I was 14. I didn't get to play very much but I enjoyed it. Keep up the good work. I am looking into basic and I have started pur having the books.
I played 1e in junior and senior high… and 2e at university. I much prefer 1e and still play it today. But I still like hearing your thoughts on this edition.
On one side, yeah it was an issue the amount of stuff you needed to consume just to run a campaign and at that point you might just create your own stuff. On the other that era of TSR is extremely memorable and brought amazing settings that translated to other media, particularly video games, wich no other d&d version really did. How many people never played d&d but played things like Baldur's Gate or Planescape Torment. The thing about settings is that it gives a bit of solidity to what you're presenting to your players since they'll be playing something written by authors and properly edited (and if it turns really stupid you can shift the blame to the authors, haha).
I still play those games from time to time. The real question is, how many players of them read the hundreds of lore books that you'd find, that did nothing to progress the game. They, like many of the setting books, were just unnecessary cash soaks. Well, encumbrance soaks...
Being a young person in the 90s my friends and I had to specialize in order to keep up with the product output. We were also at the mercy of what was available in physical stores. Greyhawk stuff was simply not sold in our area. We couldn't reference any of it if none of us were familiar, whereas now one could read about or watch a video on any setting material for free. (At least enough to get the sense of it.) I would still say we were/are fans even if we weren't familiar with every last iota of lore though. Its hard to say what critical mass of information makes one an enthusiast of any given setting or content. The glut of products may have fractured the fan base, but the business failure was also that many of those products were not profitable, as in not being cost effective. Their creative teams were not in touch with their finance and logistics people. They ran into a bind with their printer, and the rest is WotC.
I am still attending a RPG-group where we’re playing a2e d&d. great game. My PC is a bard. The rules on this class is a bit rough, though imho. Still like a2e a lot though. I consider it the ‘hard’ difficulty setting of d&d where 5e is ‘easy-normal’. disclaimer: I’ve only played a2e and 5e, where a2e was the edition I grew up with in the early 90’s. Got away from the hobby for more than two decades, has now picked it up again (a few years ago). great review.
Apologies for the necro posting, but.. I really agree with the idea that TSR diluted its own product during the 90s. That's when I started playing the game, and I was desperate to pick up all of the campaign settings and source books that I could. Forgotten Realms had a glut of content, which I guess meant that I had a decent amount of books for that setting. But if I wanted Greyhawk? Known World? Dragonlance? These weren't being sold in any numbers anywhere at the time. For every 'normal' campaign setting book, there were a dozen sourcebooks/modules/boxed sets for Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Red Steel, Birthright, Planescape, etc. Now some of this might have been compatible with my own campaign setting, and I might have even enjoyed them in their own right. But somebody trying to run standard fantasy and wanting products for that? I know they were trying to reach or create new markets but they would have had a lot more money from their core demographic if they had stuck to what worked.
Yep, too much in the way of specific setting material, too little in across-the-board utility. When I think of some of the old books that I still use regularly today - it's things like the DM Design Kit and other generic resources.
I am really curious Ian on how you played 2nd edition -what ability score generation did you use? -how did you generate hit points? -what level range did you like to play the most? -did you use individual initiative or group initiative? -favorite rules supplement (handbook series, etc)?
4d6, re-roll up to two dice, drop lowest. The PCs are meant to be a cut above the average heroes - I find this method has an expectation of average or higher. Hit points - each newly acquired Hit Dice is rolled. Levels 5-9. Personally, this sweet spot is where you can have games that feel heroic, without starting to feel superheroic. In higher-level games, for example, we had one character hold a swarm of 40 wraiths away from the party while yelling at the mage to centre a fireball on her. He did so. Wraiths were destroyed, character was "a bit singed". That sort of thing does make for a fun game, but is more kin to the superhero genre than the fantasy I enjoy. Not that I don't enjoy the superhero genre! Initiative - it depends. Certainly at the start of 2nd we stayed with 1d6 group initiative for a while. But I DMd at tournaments a fair bit, which needed more consistency, and also a recognition that the guys and gals on a tournament table may not have met before - so a sense of individual achievement I felt was more important. So, for tournaments, I used individual initiative. Once I figured out how to DM that efficiently enough for tournament play, we adopted it for the home game. Rules supplement... grief, 2nd had so many books that I got so much use from. I guess at this point, I would choose one that has use beyond 2nd Ed - so Castle & Campaign Guide, or Creative Campaigning, something like that. From a 2nd edition-centric view, Complete Humanoids was useful as a DMs tool for encounter building. I got a lot of fun out of that. If I'm allowed campaign books in here, then Spelljammer and Dark Sun, because they were different, and showed that D&D could indeed do more than pseudo-medieval fantasy.
I was gutted when they stopped printing the magazine, out of nowhere really. The pullout adventures were generally always excellent but the city of Pelenore each month was the highlight for me.
@@davidjarkeld2333 It was a shame. It was just at that point when White Dwarf was turning increasingly Games Workshop Only, so having a UK TSR vehicle kept a good mix. I guess the (minor) saving grace was that Dragon was becoming more widely distributed over here, with TSR UK picking up publication of that. But Imagine, and Pelinore, had a very distinctive British feel to them that I think, sadly, has been lost in mainstream role-playing today. Raise a glass to those halcyon days.
I always played 2e in the 90s by the book (and by that, I mean the PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual plus house rules. And then also what we liked from the class splatbooks). It was all homebrewing stuff, as the DMG encouraged, and I thought these campaign settings are for the people without creativity ^^; (Okay, I did get the Dark Sun one because that seemed so totally different from the stuff the regular rules offered, which was interesting enough to take a look.)
Well, you could also argue the settings were for people that didn't have time - or, as you with Dark Sun, liked a concept someone else had dreamed up. Anyway, 2nd Ed was my go-to during the 1990s, too. Probably played more of that than any other game in that period.
Bravo! What an excellent overview of a great game system and really, if you're a fantasy fan...a treasure trove of what made old school gaming so fun and fascinating. I'd add that BG 1 and 2 plus Icewind Dale and Planescape/Torment really made 2nd edition rules approachable to the computer game enthusiasts. To this day, I'm still playing them and loving every minute....anyways, great analysis and your way of summarizing such as vast subject is deeply appreciated! By the way, I still have some of those 2nd edition Character Kit books. For sheer novelty, one that I have is the Charlemagne Paladin class. I don't think I ever used it, but I thought it was kind of cool, as I'm also a big history buff. Ok, Cheers from early morning Vancouver, Canada!
I am also a 1984 -86 1st Edition player who now 36 years on has joined up with my original 5 once more. Now aged 50 he he...Id just like to comment on 53 mins 27 seconds, TSR was Deaf and didnt listen to its customers... One thing that should be really highlighted is that when talking about the demise TSR is that the CE0 (Lorraine Williams) took the company from Gary Gygax the creator of D&D and the founder of TSR from 1974 to 1985, Lorraine ran it from 1985 to 1995, she was only employed by Gary Gygax in March 1985 as a manager due to her background to help sort the company out because TSR had done $35 million turn over but was $1.5 million in debt. Gary was unaware and was away during this time 1984 to try and create a dungeon and dragons movie out in Hollywood, this is something his two business partners Kevin and Brian Blume had arranged, whilst Gary was away Kevin ran up huge bills including using TSR money to retrieve from the ocean a ship wreck !! So in 1984 he returned in a panic and in early March 1985 he employed Lorraine Williams to sort things out and she got rid of Kevin Blume because he acted against the interest of TSR. He had no idea he was about to be hit by a 20th level magic users lightning bolt as Lorraine arranged with the other two partners to buy there shares, she was now in Oct I think 1985 the main share holder by far and made herself CEO... Gary was devastated as she now owned everything he had created not just D&D the game but even his GreyHawk world and even his player characters such as the earliest recorded player character Mordenkainen. Remember that for 11 years 1974 to 1985 Gary the co owner was a player and always had everything play tested, the only reason he was never sole owner was because in 1974 he was worried he had let so many friends and fellow Gen Con players play test his D&D he panicked it would be published by others and allowed Brian Blume (He met at Gen Con another of Gygax's creations) to buy his way in so that Gary could produce the game ASAP.... Now when you say TSR was Deaf I agree but id just like the public to know that the lady running it was not a gamer, allegedly hated games and never play tested anything (this allegedly comes from TSR employees), she just did things in bulk and had way to many people churning out stuff that was not selling well and as you say lost touch with the people... Gary died in 2008 only 69 years old and with no relative money, the stress on that poor man over the last 10 years cut his life short thats for sure..... TSR was his baby and he only created it because he could not find a publisher for D&D and so thought ill do it myself, I cant imagine how he must of felt bring tricked like he was....He was even sued by Lorraine (New TSR) when he created a couple of other games after 1985 that never published. For this reason my party of 5 stayed true to 1st Edition and didnt want to help her TSR in any shape or form and so ignored the 2nd edition, it seems to be the most popular version for old timers today ! I hope that the new owners and gamers always remember how we ever got to Roll 20. Many thanks for listening to my rant..... J R and I might see you at Gary Con (online this year) March 2021. Gary was over the moon now owing majority shares but she had a shock for him worst than a 20th level magic users lightening bolt
It was... not the greatest time in the history of D&D. You could certainly tell the lack of playtesting going on - I may do a "worst of" video at some point, and there are certainly some prime candidates during the 1990s. I'm not so partisan with companies (with a couple of exceptions), but there are certainly a lot of D&D products - and one entire edition - that I skipped due to a lack of, in my opinion, thought and quality considerations.
I've gone through 3.5e, pathfinder, 4e, 5e, basic, before finally getting to 2e... it's been a long road, but looking forward to trying some authentic Greyhawk and Dark Sun .
@@WillyMuffinUK mine too, when I was a young boy, I somehow got a hold of the dark sun shattered lands pc game.. and that's what got me into d&d. it took another 15 years to manage to get my first book copy. but once it's in your brain i found it had never left. for me exploring 2e rulesystem is finally demystifying my nostalgic memories. it's getting a hold of the Adventures in Greyhawk book, that made me realise how good the old setting writing was and pursuing the OSR. can't beat Carl Sargeant I really like listening to your history of the settings and books
@@AAron-gr3jk What initially sold me on Dark Sun was the fact that it was very different, but a little like Dune (a book I love). What really sold it to me was playing in a Dark Sun tournament at Gen Con UK, with us all sitting there with looks of incredulity as the half-giant gladiator in the party rolled his damage...
@@WillyMuffinUK wow. I've never made it to that convention. I hit Dragonmeet pretty consistently because December is slow and I want Christmas presents I like :) ps I bought the dark sun POD
The earlier, original White Dwarf presentation is sorely missed; it had articles for a variety of genres, games, and publishers in every issue. It was as if they made a kind of 'zine omnibus each month. I still cherish so many ideas from those back issues. I've played quite a few games because I saw WD articles for them.
Great informative video mate, many thanks, my brother and I have been playing both 2nd edition d and d and call of cthulhu 3rd edition since the early days, just upgraded to 7th edition coc which we are really enjoying, but cant quite force ourselves away from 2nd edition dungeons and dragons!!!
@@thecarterbrothers3315 I have, but my favourite is modern (or near-modern...) set within the UK, connecting real-life locations the players themselves are at least aware of, if not having visited them. I find it creates a different feel and atmosphere. Pulp can get very Indiana Jones - which I love, but in games as the exception rather than the norm.
Amen my good man! I've been prepping a start from the beginning campaign! Using my nephew and niece and their friends as guinea pigs! We start with red box and go one mini campaign per edition! Although I'm skipping 4th lol! I'm seriously looking forward to see how they take 3rd edition!
@@WillyMuffinUK I'm figuring about a four part for the first starting with the party's ancestors so to speak! Going forward I break out the dragons hoard so to speak! Bonus points go to players who can out min max an old school girl who knows what thac0 and how to make a true bard!
I bought the core 2nd ed books only, i never really did the campaign settings after grey-hawk, and FR grey boxed set. As you said i have my own. And i just steal the good bits from the others really. Dragonlance is useless as a game setting unless your either all DL nerds, or you've never heard of it or read the books. As far as 1st ed and 2nd ed variations I personally prefer the 1st ED books. 2nd ed dropped the risky things and became more Disney and less Tarantino. I understand the move on a business perspective, But i still think the early d a d was a bit more metal. The 2nd ed rules were 100% easier to follow, other than the change to can-trips i cant recall anything i disliked about it as a reference book, however i never really used the monster binder or DMG from 2nd ed. i used the 1st ed books for that. i used what i liked from them all, dropped the rest. Great times.
By some strange comparison, in reference to your "1st Ed seems more metal than 2nd Ed" - I think metal through the late 70s and into the 80s (the 1st Ed period) is more metal than the late 80s through 1990s (the 2nd Ed period), coincidentally! I mean - there's some bloody good LPs in that 1977-1989 period!
@@WillyMuffinUK I have some great memories of power slave Rime of the ancient mariner, while creating lvl 30 wizards to battle Elric of melnibone. The good ol 80’s
1e Monster Manuel does not detail monster's reach, unarmed weapon operation (width necessary), unarmed weapon speed factor, monster natural armor. Since, none of these factors which effected many of these monsters. These weapon factors which effected player charcters, but not monsters. DM didn't have a means to adjudicate monsters by those rules. That is why so many DM just didn't play with those rules when players faced those monsters in combat.
The DMG and PHB cover those factors for natural/unarmed attacks - they have a speed factor of 1 - so they don't need reiterating in the MM. Reach isn't so much a thing in early editions - long weapons indicated reach by being able to attack from rear ranks, a holdover from Chainmail. Space was a thing, though, with certain weapons requiring certain space to be able to operate them. For unarmed attacks, simply put - if the space is big enough for the creature, then it's big enough for it's attacks, subject to DM assessment. How weapon attacks are affected by armour types is adequately explained in the DMG, including effect of natural armour - again, no need for reiterating in the MM. Basically, in short, the factors you mention and how they affect weapon attacks are explicitly described within the AD&D rules. The various weapon factors are also outlined as being optional (usually by similar wording to "If you use [this element] in your games...". So this "permission" not to use them, combined with the uneccesary ballache of using them during games, is why most of the DMs from back when I know didn't use them, not because the MM didn't include information the DMG and PHB contained. I get a sense that you are extrapolating back from the 3E MM, and expecting to see such detail in the 1st Ed. game. That's not a good comparison. 3E was a very different game, with a more codified rather than interpreted method of deriving statistics and handling situations. Anyway, I'd recommend looking at the DMG entries for both armour and weapon stats, which answer at least some of the elements you note as being omitted by the MM.
@@WillyMuffinUK The 2nd edition weapon speed is factored much differently, than 1st edition. It does take into consideration size, which has a slower speed. Additionally, my mention of unarmed, also applies to natural atracks. Many predators would certainly qualify as having a weapon speed factor of 1. In the case of giants with weapons. Their weapons shall have a longer length, and wider range to operate. This mostly is to give us an idea of monsters in a confined space. Its silly for a dragon to keep its lair inside of a breadbox. Yet, many players will seek refuge from giants in confined spaces. Then, there are cases in which tail attacks are made and those require a great deal of space. Much more than a creature swinging their fist.
@@josephpurdy8390 Correct - 2nd simplified it all, by reducing combat reference down from segments to initiative scores. But not sure how your second comment ties to your first?
I’ll add - I like how you talk about the whole constellation of the genre - tie-in books and computer games and how they played into the changes to the game. Not many commenters are doing that, and certainly not as thoroughly.
Ouch... The "Satanic panic" was more real for some than others! It never really took off in the UK - our game books were relatively safe from burning. As for the comprehensive thing... yes... I'm trying to show the evolution of the hobby and its branches - and, yes, I've not seen many tie the gamut together. Hopefully, the series taken as a whole, with all the different games and editions, will show the patterns of the development of games. Also - noted about the text. I'll extend it out a bit in future videos. Thank-you!
Great Video Thank you for your time on these. I'm now reading up on DarkSun Official materials I've purchased, and am blown away at the breath of the setting. I love at how comprehensive and unique the setting is, as well as how focused and thereby accessible. Did you play DSun back in the day? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love a solid DSun video you, given your insights into..... Willy, you do realize that you are now a wizened sage, of at least 20th lvl.
Wizened probably, sagacious unlikely! Dark Sun was one of my fave 2nd Ed settings. I will do some bits on various gaming milieus - Dark Sun included, and not just limited to the D&D ones. I still remember, Gen Con UK, Dark Sun tournament... I forget what I was playing, but I remember all of us around the table staring agog at the player of the half-giant gladiator when he announced damage he'd just inflicted upon some poor, then-annihilated soul!
@@WillyMuffinUK Willy as I read the various resource books for Dark Sun, the adventure hooks just jump out at one. (Dune Traders for example). The published adventures need some serious adaptation, but have some solid bleached bones to work from. Further with Defilers and preservers and Elemental clerics, and Psionicists .... all very unique character potentials to work with. Other than the new GrimDark Symbaroum setting, Dark Sun is the only other setting that seems.... somehow serious enough
@@YukonJack88 Ah, but sometimes a touch of the less serious is good, too. Spelljammer was another of my favourites, and I am looking forward to the 5E version of that arriving!
Just discovered your channel and working through the videos. good stuff so far, the comment about TSR being the cause of death of TSR by not listening to customers is pretty ironic considering the year WOTC has been having
I've been playing/DMing D&D since Basic/AD&D and it's apparently a lot of D&D TH-camrs first experience with D&D is 5E. I notice they comment about homebrew rules they come up with and I comment, "Actually that rule was in 2E/3.5E/4E." There's a reason 5E doesn't have X rule because 5E simplified the D&D system from the rules bloat, especially in 3.5E. tl;dr Learn your (D&D) history so you don't repeat it (homebrewing rules that already existed).
I agree, I've seen similar. There's also a huge archive of articles from Dragon and other areas that address all sorts of things, from the realism (or not) of studded leather armour, to whether paladins should always be lawful good, to... well... all manner of questions that are being asked/answered/debated now, that have long since been asked/answered/debated by those of us with a bit more grey.
Willy, the reason why your 1st edition book is in better shape than your 2nd edition one is actually not the amount of play you put it through. It's how the book was made. A little known fact for you. Gary Gygax insisted that 1st edition AD&D would be created and bound to US schools textbook standards. Meaning the same level of care, the same materials, the same quality of paper, ink (archival), everything, had to meet the stringent standards of high school, and grade school book publication that are used in the United states. Books for those schools are expected to stand up to multiple years of use, and being swapped between student for literally 15 years. FAR FAR more wear than a game book should expect. The 2nd edition books and the UA book from 1st edition were NOT held to those same standards... which is why those books fall apart a whole lot faster. So your 2nd edition book... it should have looked as good or better than the 1st edition book... if it had been bound like the 1st edition books were. So there you go.
Thank-you, Steven - I didn't know that. And it makes a lot of sense, looking at the state of my 1st Ed books vs. 2nd across the board. Actually, my UA isn't in too bad shape, but certainly the 2nd Ed. PHB and DMG aren't the only 2nd Ed. hardbacks that are showing their age. ToM isn't quite on the "spine replaced with electrical tape" list, but it's close!
Well, interesting review Willy! Yes, all you need is the player's handbook to play. Although having the other books helped a lot. Although I'm a realist, as much as I liked second edition of AD&D, I did move on to D&D 3.x.
Wonderful video! I am a huge fan of Planescape though I've never been able to actually run a game yet. This video is very inspirational and I think I should make more of an effort to get a game going!
This was an awesome review. I was introduced to the game through AD&D 2nd edition, played for many years, and then went on to run my own campaign. We tried 3rd edition, but I found it too restrictive. While it can slow down the action in certain cases, I prefer the DM to be able to interpret and modify where needed. I looked through your videos but don't see anything regarding 3e and above (was looking for 5e). I hope you one day have the time to do it.
Thanks! You'll find 3E here : th-cam.com/video/9Q-auCbSuZY/w-d-xo.html 4E and 5E I haven't yet reached (lots of other games to cover beyond the D&D sphere!)
My memory seems to enjoy being selective. I can remember stupid bits of minutiae - but some songs bust my brain when playing live! I'm glad you found it useful.
(still early in the video) I feel like there is a lot that happened into the 90s with D&D and into 2001 with the third edition that happened alongside and with the 'corporatization' of the game. The distance between producer and consumer, game maker and player; that did widen. But that happened with the game changing to be able to function in such a way. Moving into third edition it was no longer as necessary for someone in the group to be engaged with the magazines and the game shops to fully know how to use the game. And while I love my game shops, the need for this time and money often involved with being active in such a community did limit who could reasonably play it. Sure, anyone with the core books in theory could figure it out... but realistically you had to be invited in. And as a result, the game was largely being played only by the middle class white men and boys that were welcome in game shops and that were friends or their fellow middle class white friends, still mostly guys. Which wasn't ever the intention... but a systemic problem that was never addressed. Hasbro, of course, has done some pretty bad shit in its time holding on to the IP, but one good thing has been turning the game into something that was way, way easier to get involved with. D&D has expanded greatly into including women and people of color. There are many factors for this, but one is that Hasbro actually considered them as a potential consumer of the game. But along with that, the 'cleaning up' that Hasbro did (for better or worse for the game itself) made it way easier to engage with on its own. Hasbro of course has never actually cared about this- some of the D&D staff has, of course- but they are a corporation. They want money. Which has accidentally lead to some pretty great things. I really don't know why I got so ranty. This is intended mostly as some critical thought on the idea of the 'corporatization' of D&D and isn't really critique of the video as a whole. As the name implies, I'm the Devil's Advocado here... and there isn't much more like the devil than a corporation. (with that, I continue on your video)
25:40 No, that's actually the right words for it. And it can lead to a good critique to much of the D&D set ups of what is 'civilization' and what is 'savage'... and with that, a question of if we are repeating tropes that could be harmful. The real change is our willingness to accept a 'horde of savages' as a reasonable enemy. For us to go 'oh, well, these are orcs, so it's fine' isn't... quite as accepted. And many of the stories in 'The Savage Frontier' are cowboy stories with a different environment. Of course, the concept of colonization is theoretically morally neutral. The idea of a culture going to some other place and making a new city isn't itself harmful. It's what doing so does to that new land that is. A good exploration of a different sort of colonization is often explored in Star Trek and indeed you can tell such a story in the Forgotten Realms as well.
29:50 Oh... that explains so much about the miserable story used for 4th edition. I knew about the Avatar crisis but I didn't know it was tied to the change in editions. Interestingly, 3rd didn't really try this, I don't think.
2nd to 3rd was a little lite - but the last 2nd products were about ending campaigns. The Apocalypse Stone is one, but alongside that you had Die Vecna Die, which did have some ramifications going into 3rd (Vecna as a god, for example).
A lot of the "corporatisation" already happened, with the 1990s incarnation of TSR - even back into the early/mid 1980s it was heading that way. WotC were seen as still in the "hobby mode" of companies, but given Pokémon and so on, I think that wasn't quite a true reflection. Adkinson gave a presentation at UK GenCon where he went over the acquisition in a frame of saving D&D from the failed corporate monster of TSR. I can't remember whether this was shortly before or shortly after the sale to Hasbro, but whichever - it made the "saviour" tone of that presentation somewhat hollow in the long run. As for needing to be invited in, I'm not sure I agree with that. It might well be down to different areas, different people, so on. Actual game stores that stocked RPG materials back in the day in the UK were very few and far between, and even fewer had a community built around them. By and large, groups figured things out on their own with their friends. Most of the groups I've played in over the years have had good female representation - but, I guess, the "white middle class" observation did still apply. That may just be the way things appeal - does a game constructed around western mythology and literature necessarily speak to people with a completely different baseline? And, while that aspect has improved, I still see most RPG players hailing from the white middle-class group. I don't think the middle-class bit is going to be broken any time soon, with the entry level for most games being at least £100.
2e adventures were 1/3 combat, 1/3 role-play, & 1/3 exploring, traps, & puzzles. That was a big improvement over 1e, which lacked real role-playing. I feel like 5e leaves out the exploring, traps, & puzzles & balances combat, which means PCs can march around without fear and kill everything-hence murder hoboes. I’ve seen players today complain that their character should be able to solve a puzzle with a skill check! And don’t get me started on free & easy healing! 5e is D&D on easy mode.
In 1st Ed, how did players interact with... Let's choose some early ones - Hommlet? Erelhei-Cinlu? Orlane? Barovia? Many others? I think to make a sweeping statement like 1st Ed lacked role-playing is to misrepresent many of the published adventures, and ways in which the game was being played. Additionally, within 2nd Ed you have Nightmare Keep, Haunted Halls, Swamplight, and many other published adventure that have much lower role-playing content than many 1st Ed. ones. It is very much not as clear cut as you are trying to illustrate. Largely, it was down to the play style of a group. Sort of agree with 5E, though - in fact, from 3E on that's been an issue. The trick is to not make the whole game about skill checks, which in many ways 5E, with its more focused selection of skills, does better than 3E.
@@WillyMuffinUK Exactly. What passed for a "role-playing game" in the 1970s and '80s was just talking to a tavern-owner to get the information you need to find the dungeon. I'm talking about proper, story-based, linked-adventure, ongoing-villains role-playing. That developed gradually, especially with the release of Forgotten Realms, which did a much better job than Greyhawk of encouraging ongoing stories. 2e hit a couple years later, and I suspect a lot of tables decided then to start a new, more sophisticated campaign in FR.
@@Tysto I still think you are misrepresenting things somewhat. Sure, a lot of early D&D modules were self-contained, but quite a few were not - and the scope was there for enterprising DMs to lace things together into a narrative that suited their campaign. We certainly did/do. The more rigid story frameworks began with DragonLance - I'm interested to know which FR adventures you consider to have sophisticated narratives? I think the FRA trilogy does, but no more or less than I3-5, for example. You also need to bear in mind that RPG players shifted focus from running primarily their own worlds and adventures, to using published settings more by the advent of 2nd Ed. Where you say Greyhawk didn't do as good a job of story framing as, FR, I'd suggest that this was partially due to those earlier modules being less anchored to setting lore than later ones. For example, the GDQ sequence is readily adaptable to most settings, while the FRE sequence could only take place in the Realms - it's far too tethered. Of course, a fair chunk of that shift tied into marketing. Why sell one adventure that people can adapt to their own taste, when you can sell a box, 16 supplements, a sled of novels, a bunch of modules that only work when used together, the box again as modified by the events of said modules, etc. Colour me cynical, but in large part where you see "sophisticated", I see "accountancy".
Willy, First of all, you are the best youtuber on old DnD ever, love your videos. Is there any difference between the "Revised" edition (Black books) and the TSR version apart from art, layout and etc? Any difference strictly in the rules or math and etc?
Well, thank-you! Rules-wise, not much. Most of the differences are peripheral - a few spells coming over from the Tome of Magic, some odds and sods learned and ported in from the PHBR series - but nothing significant in the underlying system. Hope that helps!
Things I can remember us reacting to when 2nd Edition came out: "I liked the level titles for different classes. Why'd they get rid of those?" "Feels kind of generic."/"I never liked potion miscibility tables." / "Forgotten Realms be big and full of stuff." / "Dragonlance is boring." / "They're just trying to sell us books." / "What's the Internet?" / "I'm gonna make a half-elf cambion wild mage barbarian." / "What do you mean 'that's stupid'?" / "You're stupid." / "There's just so many shiny new things in 2d edition." / "Planescape is incredible." / "I'm not going to DM Planescape, forget that shit." / "Too bad only 12 people like Spelljammer, I think it's kind of cool." / "We can just play Isle of Dread."
@@WillyMuffinUK I guess maybe that was just me. When I tell younger players about the potion miscibility table, they think the idea is fantastic. I admit that I have nostalgia for the granularity of 1st/2nd Edition.
I do want to agree with your point on the commercialization of the game. However, I would also point out that the community has kind of come full circle with homebrew content actually becoming an official part of the game in 5e. It's still been dumbed down, but I feel it's become player and content driven, despite the numerous adventure modules being written. Maybe that's just my perspective as a younger generation though.
And all that side of things will be part of the eventual 5E video! Well, actually, the start of it will be with the 3E video and the advent of the OGL.
Anyone have a first edition Chainmail PDF for me to borrow? 😬 Good Sir, you touched on much regarding D&D lore and evolution. Well done. P.S. Truly, I miss my Dragon Magazine arriving in the mail...
@@DerSchleier Similar. I've since collected most Dungeon magazines, subscription to it didn't appeal at the time. Mainly because I felt that the quality control of articles within Dragon was by far better than that of adventures in Dungeon - I wasn't enamoured with the idea of buying a magazine regularly that only 1/3rd of the content of every 4th issue would be of any use to me.
2nd Edition was the first edition I played and still my favorite. If I were going to homebrew my optimal system though, I think it would be 2E with the skill system and Saving Throws of 3E. I hate how Feats and Stat Boosts from 3rd edition onward have made most characters basically superheroes by the time they get to level 12. 2nd Edition is also the time TSR produced some of their best and some of their worst products. Sure, they transitioned to more plot-based adventures, but MOST of them weren't quite as linear and railroad-y as DragonLance, and actually had branching paths and, sometimes, even multiple endings. The artwork in 1E had started out really rough and amateurish, but by the time of 2E the art was consistently great and so was the print quality. In addition to 2E just having too many campaign settings, I feel there were other factors in the bloat of their catalog that helped sink them, though: 1. Dividing their resources (and player base) between AD&D and Basic - Another case of competing with themselves. They made a huge push to revitalize Basic D&D in the early 90s with the Rules Cyclopedia, several board game sized box sets, the "Thunder Rift" series of modules, and the Gazetteer and Hollow World campaign settings. I was 12 when this stuff came out and had just started playing in my first AD&D adventure. I wasn't sure if Advanced and Basic were compatible, but it was the only stuff that wasn't branded with a specific campaign setting so I figured it would be easier to work into a campaign. :/ 2. The tremendous ratio of "Accessory" products to actual adventures - I remember going to game/book stores as a teenager and 60% of the AD&D product was accessories or supplements (usually setting-specific). A lot of these accessories would turn out to be either nothing but fluff or nothing but maps and expect you to write your own adventure. The vast number of modules I bought as a kid were second-hand 1E modules I picked up at used book stores and garage sales. 3. Campaign Setting Revisions - Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft each had 2 box sets and a hard cover campaign settings printed and I'm pretty sure Greyhawk and Dark Sun had 2 box sets each. And sure, you've got to keep the campaign settings in print if you're going to keep supporting them, but in the case of Ravenloft at least, not only was the information revised, so was the actual plane of Ravenloft. Thanks to the Grand Conjunction, some lands vanished and were replaced by others between the "Realm of Terror" and the Red Box version of the campaign setting, and again by the time of the "Domains of Dread" hardcover. It's a real bummer if you bought an adventure that took place in one of those lands that already vanished. But these later revisions still make reference to the "Realms of Terror" and " Forbidden Lore" box sets, so you still kinda need them too. 4. Licensed products and expanding into comics - I'm sure when they did the Indiana Jones and Conan/Red Sonja RPGs in the 80s they did fairly well as they had media to tie in with. The Marvel Super-heroes RPG and especially Buck Rogers in the 25th Century RPGs never seemed to be big sellers (at least in my area). Of course they also had to jump into the comics bubble of the 90s. While they had great quality books and art, they were also priced much higher than most comics from DC, Marvel, etc and must not have sold well since apparently none of the series lasted past issue 4. 5. Too many formats and too many products overall. Saddle-stitched modules, perfect-bound books, hardcover books, boxsets of various sizes without a clear and consistent reasoning for why a certain product was a certain format or price point. Sure, the rules were FAR easier to understand than First Edition but, you still needed someone who already plays to tell you where to get started and what you need due to the sheer number and different types of products. When you're a 12-year-old with a $10 weekly allowance you must choose carefully.
All good points. You have to remember that TSR was legally obliged to keep D&D in print, but that didn't mean they had to go the whole hog, as they did. I can understand the campaign revisions to a certain extent. If you're going to publish a setting with an ongoing story, you have two options - publish update supplements to the main set, describing the changes from the ongoing plot (which means, to make sense you'd have to keep the main set constantly in print), or fold the changes into a revised set (which means you can draw a line under plot and product to that point). Personally, I'm more in favour of having settings that describe the milieu up to a fixed point, and then say to DMs - "up to you from here". From a business perspective though, that doesn't generate the same volume of product. Which might not be a bad thing. Far too many supplements and formats, yes. One thing I did get a sense for as a consumer was TSR throwing the kitchen sink out, trying to find something that would stick and bring in the $$$. As it was, they diluted the game while bloating it at the same time, and ended up with a ton of unsold experiments.
Also, great video! I'd much rather watch a lengthier, comprehensive video like this than have the subject broken up into 5 or 6 videos 20 mins each and have to sit through an intro and ads that many times.
Thank you. Me too, which is why all of these game videos are "as long as they need to be". Which means some are shorter than others, depending on how much history and product I need to wade through :)
I remmember when 2.nd edition came out. Good times. I really liked what they did to monsters especially dragons. Edit: Played our own mix of 1.st and 2.nd edition rules.
First - Spaceballs, brilliant movie. (Edited, due to my old-age confusion thinking you'd replied to a different video!) Yes, 2nd Ed made dragons a LOT scarier! Although they didn't conveniently fit in dungeon rooms anymore... We also mixed'n'matched 1st and 2nd for a bit - 2nd took some things out of 1st we really liked, and tidied up others, so our 2nd Edition games were more like our own take on "Basic, 1st, and 2nd Greatest Hits" :)
I think the best version of it still around is here: web.archive.org/web/20010429183820/www.wizards.com/dnd/dnddefinitivefaq.asp Someone folded my original notes into a wider article, but at least they credited me and Lawrence Mead for our work 🙂 There's also an archive of a conversion post I wrote that highlights changes and how to manage them when converting modules: members.tripod.com/lord_eadric/first2second.html (That email address for me no longer exists, just to note)
After teaching or explaining AD&D & other older editions to players who started on 4 or 5 many times, I've become increasingly convinced that the experience of learning an edition when it was new - with one set of external/cultural understandings and preconceptions of what it was - is fundamentally different than the experience of learning it retroactively, with a different set of understandings and expectations. So often they'll be looking for something that isn't there or failing to grasp a central concept that I think felt obvious and even intuitive at the time but is clearly not now. I don't think it's a case of anybody being smarter than anyone else, so much as almost speaking a different native dialect of gaming. Combining this with... The natural flexibility of TTRPGs in general, I feel like many modern players end up playing 2E *with a 5E "accent"* and may miss some of what makes it unique? And of course, players that are native to an older edition are doing the same with newer ones, especially if there's a long gap in their history of following the game through all editions.
Interesting thoughts, and probably true. We play all sorts of editions and mixtures, but I think you are right - when we play 5E we do seem to flavour it more towards earlier editions, at least in play style.
So, did you like and prefer, and do you still prefer today, 2nd Edition? I'm assuming so, due to that old and wonderful 1989 PH, but assuming is so dangerous. Thnx for the history and thoughts! Would you have gone with ascending AC and simple pluses for then THACO had you thought of them?
That is a difficult one to answer. 1st and 2nd are perhaps the two most closely related of all (A)D&D editions, yet the differences are there. I guess you could say my favourite edition is 2nd, but with elements of 1st that I like replacing or adding to their 2nd equivalent. But then, I also enjoy BX/BECMI, 3rd, and 5th - again, with elements from all sorts of places mixed in. The only editions I really don't get along with are 0E and 4th. The former because I like a bit more structure and consistency, while 0E was a bit like the Wild West of throwing things in. 4th because it's a boardgame. It works well as the foundation for that series of boardgames (Wrath of Ashardalon et al), but is useless in terms of what I want from an RPG. Everyone has wildly different opinions on D&D's editions, but I will end this essay with this note: of all the fantasy games I play (not just D&D), if it's a quick evening's one-off game we want, 9 times out of 10 it's B/X we reach for. Whatever that says!
@@WillyMuffinUK Awesome! Thnx for the reply... and for me and my family, we agree, but my kids tend to heavily favor BFRPG (Basic Fantasy RPG - Sort of a B/X clone). 👍
@@retrodmray Reminding me to add some kind of OSR clone review video to my "to do" list. But there are so, so many these days! Basic Fantasy is one I have read through, though :)
@@WillyMuffinUK I'd love to hear your take on BFRPG as well. I've got my own channel with videos too... quite opinionated and perhaps passionate, but you may be interested. I'll be reading through BFRPG and commenting on it as well soon, with my 40+ yrs of D&D gaming under my belt. Many blessings, sir 👍
couldn't agree more D&D and RPG's have moved from counter culture at their beginning to main stream corporate marketing test groups. 5e is designed to be vanilla, appeal to the most number of people possible, offend no one....and as a result it is like tepid water that i want to spit out of my mouth. 2e still had a voice and personality. it had something to say. i love the granularity... like weapon speed effects on iniative.
Hey mate... I found your channel when looking for AD&D 2e videos. I've been unsatisfied with 5e and its overpowered "superhero" feel, and have been exploring a few other games. I started with 3e, but my first exposure to D&D was 2e videogames like Pool of Radiance, Baldur's Gate, Dark Sun, etc., so I've always had an attachment to the system without having played it. I was looking for something "like" 2e, something a little less complicated. I had fallen for the bogeyman about 2e being complicated. Then someone told me - 2e really isn't as complicated as its made out to be. I love Call of Cthulhu. I really like GURPS. I love Low Fantasy Gaming (Australian designer, check it out). So I decided to give 2e a go, and since making that decision I've been loving everything I read and play. This video is really interesting, and I've really gotten sucked into your channel. I love your earnest style, its not flashy and over the top like so many RPG videos. You are clearly speaking from a position of experience and well-researched knowledge. I love the structure of your reviews, especially the history. History is so important in establishing context to make a judgement of something. Anyway, keep at it. I'm loving the videos and I'm really looking forward to what game system you do next.
Thank-you! I'm glad you're finding them useful and entertaining. 2nd Ed, for me, is really a simplification of 1st, and cleans up a few things. It sounds like you're having a blast with it :)
I'm baffled why there is a limited resurgence in interest in AD&D 2E. I played it to death in the 90s and the arrival of 3e in 2000 was a sweet breath of fresh air. 2e is archaic, limited in scope and was creaking in its dotage against game systems like Vampire the Masquerade. 3e has its faults sure, but it saved D&D from irrelevance. I blame interest in AD&D 2e on the 20 year(ish) nostalgia cycle. Except somethings don't get better with age (Note: the 2E campaign settings were amazing; the rules were...not).
And yet, more people played 2nd Ed than VtM at its height. But anyway... WotC did a good job at bringing D&D back from the brink with 3E. But it is pretty much "Rolemaster Very Lite" - see video on it hereabouts. It did break away quite a bit from what people understood as "D&D". Now, everyone's mileage will differ on whether that's a good or bad thing. As for why there's a mini resurgence in it - no clue. Nostalgia, perhaps. 2nd Ed occupies a funny ground between a more traditional OSR base - which OD&D, Basic, and 1st Edition align with - and the modernised era beginning with 3rd. People like what people like, though - that one person doesn't like a game does not preclude someone else enjoying it to the hilt.
@@WillyMuffinUK I'm looking for a setting similar to Skyrim. Something with an imperial power in the south, Nordics in the north, and an elven kingdom in the west and the wilds in the centre. A kind of contested wilds full of exploration and adventure. I've been thinking about making it myself, but I'm sure it's already been done and I just can't find it.
@@martinbowman1993 I don't know anything about Skyrim, but that does resemble quite a few general fantasy worlds - Mystara and the Warhammer Fantasy world, for example.
@@WillyMuffinUK Skyrim has the Nords in the north, they are Barbarians, in the East there is an Elven kingdom, and in the south there is the Imperials. They look like Romans. There are also middle eastern looking people in red coats. basically the game has an over arching story where the Nords make up the bulk of the imperial army recruits and the elves are at war with the Imperials so they are involved in getting the Nords to revolt. also the land is kind of in the wilds. Like Dwarves used to live there but they all entered a portal and left, so there are ruined Dwarven cities. I like the general premise of the land - it is a contested space between Great Powers. It has both ancient and new stuff as well as tons of towns and castles, but also ruins and dungeons, dragons, and giants.
Who is anyone to say what is "correctly" when it comes to a creative gameplay medium such as D&D? And sure, it was never originally meant to be a setting - but that's what it became, and did pretty well for itself.
Well, as a horror setting I guess. If people played in Ravenloft as just another world they were missing the point IMHO. I mean sure, technically it's a campaign setting, but running characters in only Ravenloft would be hellish and not much fun. Nonstop horror? Mind numbing man. LOL
I love Ravenloft BTW. I did it so well anytime it got misty or foggy in my normal campaign my players started sweating and complaining. "NOT AGAIN! AHHHH!". 🤣🤣🤣
I'm really on the fence between first and second edition. Considering first edition POD versions as in my youth I was gifted a first edition PHB and to have that again in my hands! So it's the nostalgia and recalling spells etc. Though what's important is what will play better for my 49 year old mind to comprehend and reference with ease. Heard first edition DM guide isn't the best for that. Also, is it necessary to own all the supplements that came with 2nd edition to enjoy it? Ahh decisions decisions! Thank you!
@@WillyMuffinUK Thanks Willy!! Oh wow I'm feeling it! Do you advise the original 2nd edition or the revised which the art work is diff but probally some typos etc corrected I'd imagine? Thanks
@@scourneene I'm not one to care much about art. You can put all sorts of flashy art on a bad game, and it's still a bad game - and you can have a good game with the worst art ever (or no art at all), and it'll still be a good game. From a rules perspective, though - I'd probably go for the revised (black cover) set. There isn't much difference between the two, but the layout is slightly clearer to my eye.
@@WillyMuffinUK That's very true about the art Willy! Eye Candy really! Ok I value your opinion so that's good to know! Thanks have a great weekend! Great channel btw!
To be honest, on top of the "history" value your series provide, it would be odd to ignore there is a modern and thriving industry (the so called "OSR") that is based on "older" systems. They publish a lot, and sell quite well.
I'm not ignoring them - I just haven't got to them yet :) To be frank, I'll probably deal with the OSR in one or two videos, rather than each game individually. For a start, there are few that are truly unique - most are close reproductions of existing games. There are a few - for example, The Black Hack is more relevant than OSRIC or Swords & Wizardry, at least at this point in time, when the main reason for games such as OSRIC (use the OGL to reproduce an edition that is no longer available/supported) has been sidestepped somewhat (many of the original editions that OSR games reproduced are now available again, as PDF and/or POD), simply because The Black Hack something different to the table than a general reproduction. There is also the argument that OSR games, with their ties to the OGL, open up the market for authors to produce material for their favoured game via a back door. For example, the Cepheus Engine seems to have little purpose than to enable the marketing of Classic Traveller-compatible material. That sounds cynical, and it is in a way. But that is how certain OGL games appear to be. I don't know... Several possible approaches in my mind about it at the mo. The OSR and the games that fall under its banner are definitely on the "to do" list, but how I end up doing them isn't clear yet - and they're not so far up the priority list.
@@WillyMuffinUK That was not meant to be a harsh critique, happy to hear you have it in your to do list, though. Many of my groups are trying to break away from 5th edition for many reasons (younger players want something different from what they know well, while there might be nostalgia involved for the likes of me, but still it is very much a thing across the board).
@@SebastienlovesCookieswirlc I didn't take it as such :) This TH-cam space of mine is very much in an evolving state, so all constructive comments like that are very much welcome!
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It feels really weird to hear AD&D 2nd Edition talked about in the past tense! It's the only version of the game I've played for the last twenty five years. In fact, I've got two different long-term campaigns going at the moment that have been running for a few years now.
It did end publication 21 years ago! But that doesn't stop any of us playing whichever edition we love most :)
And here I thought I was the only one that never followed suit when 3e came out. This makes me feel less alone over here. Big difference being, however, that I never had anyone to play with over the past 20+ years, since my 2e friends all moved away circa 2000. I've been building my book collection back up over the past few years though and I'm finally playing 2e with my wife in the Al-Qadim setting now. I never realized how much of this has remained ingrained in me, although dormant, for all of these years.
@@OldSkullTTGer I'm another one. I never liked 3e. Far too many of the lore and tonal changes got under my skin, and I just didn't think the rule overhaul was necessary. Plus, my favorite setting, Planescape, was in 2e, so there was no reason to update it for another rule set I didn't like anyway.
I would never run anything besides D&D, AD&D 1st and AD&D 2nd...all else are just money maker fakes...
@@OldSkullTTGer I'll play with you!
Still my favorite edition of D&D,I learned how to play from 2nd edition.
I started with the basic set then progressed into 1st edition and then into 2nd edition. 3rd edition turned me off and I went back to 2nd where I felt comfortable. The newer versions are even worse. 2nd edition rules simply are superior to every thing else.
@@louiselockett2905 I still prefer first but I found products for the two largely compatible with each other and there were bits from second I adopted, most of second was merely clarification or tidying up of elements in first and rolling in some of the stuff from articles for first found in the pages of Dragon, so I mostly consider the two as the same rules anyway, handbooks aside that is, I chose to ignore the brown handbooks entirely.
🤔 I loath most of the artwork in the the second edition books mind 😁 not that the art in the first edition isn't crappy, it's crappy but I don't loath the first editions art while I do the seconds .. go figure 😕 I guess seconds just somehow offends my sense of aesthetic for D&D [shrugs] .. but I absolutely hate it.
Later editions art is even worse for me.
But that's irrelevant to my view of the rules in second which are good.
Ian, please don't be sorry that the video is long. I'm glad you spoke for so long about one of my favourite topics. 😁
Thank-you :) I know a lot of people stick to the 15-minute mark or thereabouts, and cover long subjects episodically. But - well, especially for games, it makes more sense to me to just go for it. I mean, watchers can watch episodically with the pause button ;)
This is the best evaluation of 2E on TH-cam. Straight forward and detailed. I started playing in 1983 with the red box, moved on to 1E then 2E. I never moved on from that. Good times.
Thank-you, kind of you to say 🙂
2nd Edition - the main edition I played and the edition that was my favourite. 🤗
I've taken a 25 year break from pen and paper D&D, but now that I've started playing again, I equally appreciate all the editions I own (BECMI, 1st, 2nd), plus I like a lot of what I experienced of 3rd Edition when playing D&D computer games).
2nd was my mainstay for a long time, and probably the edition I did the most with. So yes, it has a cosy place in my heart, too.
@@WillyMuffinUK I prefer 2nd, but then again I played as a young adult from 1979 to 1992.
As far as I’m concerned, you have to BE a computer to absorb all the additional rules contained in 3rd Edition... 😬😬
Great Review! It's amazing how the 2nd ed has been relegated to oblivion. Much is said about B / EX and much of the OSR movement focuses on it, but a lot of generation X players, started to play with AD&D 2nd ed. Thx from Barcelona, Spain.
People also forget it's the second longest published edition, in the length of time it was actively supported. It needs more love!
Thanks for this in depth flash back to a golden era of the game. This is the edition of the game that our local group of delvers played the most in. We still to this day tell stories of 2nd ed play that happened many many years ago. Cheers from Canada :)
I'm glad to have brought back some fond memories :)
That was 1h46m29s of nostalgia for me! :D
That's not a bad thing :)
My guy - I gotta say. I subbed to your channel because I saw the THUMNBNAIL of this video. I was like, "if anybody is gonna have a reputable opinion of AD&D 2e its this guy." Can't wait to hear your opinion - as a relatively new player I'm FASCINATED by these older editions.
I'm not sure what to say to that... Is it the beard? Age? I look like I've been dragged through the mill by too many PC parties? 🤔
@WillyMuffinUK haha I meant no offense of course. I think a combination of the beard and the amount of source books behind you
I really enjoyed your review. I started with AD&D 1E in 1984 then moved to 2E. I prefer 2E over any other edition of the game as well. For me, the strongest selling point is that it's the You Can Try To Do It attitude. If you're creative you get really far and are rewarded for it. You're rewarded for the risks you take as well. The DM is expected to be an adjudicator of the action on top of being a storyteller. It's the last hurrah for this type of playstyle. Future editions became You Can't Do It Without X Feat or Skill and the DM restricted to what he could do.
There is a certain element of "you can try..." in both 3E and 5E - but you're right, it's not really highlighted in that way. Obscured by the plethora of skills and feats (in 3E), and not explicitly noted so much (in 5E). The main caveat there is more that those editions specifically codify that sort of thing, whereas editions previous to 3E left it up to the DM to figure out. Mileage varies from individual to individual as to which is best from those two options - like you, I much prefer DM interpretation.
I was 14/15 years young when the 2E PHB was released. I already owned the 1E core books for a couple of years and we loved it, many great gaming experiences and memories. I remember our group being somewhat skeptical about 2E without even giving it a look but a curious few of us decided to split the cost of buying the PHB in case it was a "dog". After a comparatively easy first read, I don't think we ever looked back to 1E! I first read the 1E DMG and PHB at the age of 12 and found them to be quite dry and easy to put down after a few pages, not the case at all with 2E. I'm sure I had a slightly better attention span but I think it's safe to say that 2E is a much easier read for a 12 year old than 1E. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that 2E definitely helped gain a broader/younger play base with it's updated and approachable style.
1st Edition certainly has its own flavour of language - yes, quite "textbook" and dry, but that was (more or less) the norm for the day. Plus, the technology for laying out books developed a lot between those editions. You're right in saying the books were easier to plough through, but I will still contend that the sheer amount of content (dry or not) in the 1st Edition DMG surpasses its 2nd Edition counterpart. No contest with the PHBs, though - 2nd Ed wins there, in good part because of the things you mention!
AD&D 2e was my D&D. It wasn't the first I played, but it was the one we played when I was in highschool and beyond. The rules were second nature and we rarely had to give them a second thought. Upon reflection I suppose this *was* the era of excess that did TSR in, but I can't help loving the game. I have tremendous affection for most of the 2e campaign settings -- they were absolutely magical to me.
They did bring about some absolute gems, no doubt.
Subbed immediately mate! Just getting a first interest into D&D bought a copy of 2e players manual. Wow!
Glad you found it helpful - the video and the book :)
This is the best Editon Era review i watched. Congratulations, sir. You really make me considered things and put some issues in perspective.
I consider the AD&D 2nd the last hobbist edition.
50 years of D&D and the generic modules still are considered the greatest by the fanbase because (guess what)... they are modulars.
The best?! You flatter! Thank-you! I'm glad you found it useful.
Like you, I am interested in history, including that of our hobby. I just watched this vid again today and want to say I find there is so much good information presented here that watching several times is always rewarding. In fact, I have viewed several of the videos in this series a number of times and have learned something new with each viewing. I am also entertained. What's not to like!
Cheers!
Thank-you! I'm glad you are finding them useful :)
I fully appreciate where you are coming from with regards to the Forgotten Realms. Way back in the 80s I was a ravenous reader of fantasy literature, lots of spare time on long deployments. So I really got into the Forgotten Realms, and as a DM loved all of the lore. However, as I got older, and moved into civvy life, I had far less free time, and the shear volume and rate of change to the game and setting just became a labor, rather than a joy. I ran slow burn games where real time was faster than campaign time, so completely uprooting the game world every few years was a non-starter.
I also began to despair at the amount of "fluff" that was surrounding AD&D, and so my games stuck to AD&D2e, with nothing introduced from anything outside of the core game, like you said, the core Players Handbook was basically a complete game. All of this eventually lead me to looking at other systems which I had only in passing shown any interest in. Runequest, Harnmaster and Rolemaster all come to mind, as well as a good few others.
AD&D still holds that special place as the first TTRPG that introduced me to the hobby, but its direction and more importantly, constant need to reinvent itself pushed me away, and for that I should be thankful, because if it had not I would not have rediscovered Runequest/Mythras.
Your experiences don't sound too dissimilar to mine. In my opinion, the World of Greyhawk set represents exactly how much a published setting should set down (adventures aside), which allows a DM to take it in whatever direction they like from there. D&D became plagued with too many settings, involving too much "canon" (which, to my mind, is a daft thing to have within such a dynamic forum as role-playing). "No!" a player cries, "Forgotten GreyLance Sun Elves aren't like that!". "But", says I, "this 'ere Master book I have here says 'change what you wanna', and this 'ere campaign setting book says 'make the thing your own', so... Yeah, yes they are :P"
Beyond that, the conflict of fiction vs. game starts getting annoying when key factors don't even show up in said "canon" - at least, until their effects have been outed in novels (if at all). It's almost like certain game companies want you to play their settings, but don't want you to know enough about the metaplots they have on the boil to be able to use them in any direct way. The Forgotten Realms is a big sinner in this department - but so is the BattleTech universe, which still hasn't explained certain "setting secrets" from decades ago.
But hey ho... I know all of the secrets of my own campaign, so I'm all good :)
The loss of TSR was definitely sad. Market forces aside, growing up I enjoyed mixing ideas from many different settings -- Plancescape, in particular, was good for this because of the multiverse theme. Loved the Sha'irs handbook from Al-Qadim too.
Planescape and the Al-Qadim materials were certainly one of the highlights of 2nd Edition's run.
Fantastic videos. As some one coming into 5E as their first play through. Having some one as knowledgeable as your self is really insightful. Keep up the great videos.
Thank-you! I'm glad you are finding them useful :)
The one thing that pushed me away from FR was the metaplot, because there were groups that demanded that you have an encyclopedic knowledge of the setting and adhere to the metaplot. “If you would have read the last five novels then you would know that Elminster had a bowel movement that destroyed such and such a town, and that allowed the Zhents to resurrect such and such a deity.” On the other hand, there were other groups that only used a basic skeleton version of the Realms; one of my DMs in the late 90’s had a laid back approach to the setting. You never knew what sort of group you would encounter, so it was always a gamble.
That's always been an issue with commercial settings. And a large part of why I generally don't use them. No metaplot issues if you've made it all up :)
Then don't use the metaplot. Use only the lore and setting. If anyone complains then I guess they can go find a new game.
Excellent video. Thank you so much for creating this. It’s a great resource for me to send new 2e players to for a good overview of the system!
I'm glad you're finding it useful 🙂
I started playing in 89 myself so I started in 2nd edition and I have since played every edition of the game except the Holmes Revision. I enjoyed your video, it brought back a lot of memories.
Thank-you, I'm glad you found it useful 🙂
2e is the one I played first and most. Speaking of psionics, when the 2e psionic rules came out, I found them to be an absolute minefield of OP madness!!
They could be that in 1st, too! Personally, if you incorporate psionics, you need to account for them instead of just presenting them as another option for PCs. Dark Sun does that very well, with much of it's gaming structure built on the presence of psionics. And adding in those things that are attracted to psionics - thought eaters and the like - can make players think twice about using them everywhere.
Exactly right! You had to carefully weigh the implications in non-Dark Sun campaigns.
It fascinates me to hear other people's experiences and takes on 2nd Edition. I started on the cusp of 1st and 2nd, and really introduced to the whole thing through Dragonlance Novels. I struggled with the issue of meta narrative, or "meta plots," as you say, as a setting needed to be a place where the player characters were driving the story, and where the choices they make were meaningful and made a long lasting impact. So I gravitated towards the Forgotten Realms as it seemed more of a place where there were many stories. It had "room" for the players to make their stamp, unlike Dragonlance. Dragonlance is a story. The Forgotten Realms is a place. That was the fundamental difference to me.
I'm inclined to agree, with the caveat that the Realms suffers its own form of metaplot - usually when it prepares for a new edition of D&D. The Time of Troubles, the Spellplague, that sort of thing. But yes, it has space galore to play in! Personally, I prefer my own setting. No danger of those pesky metaplotters there!
@Willy Muffin - I run the FR but just ignore the "metaplot". I use the lore and settings, but the Time of Troubles et all are totally discarded. I am currently running a campaign where Cormyr is blown up, Azoun is killed, Vangy is killed and the Cult of Tiamat takes over the nation. Total chaos! LOL
I've never player AD&D myself, but I have been getting into original Darksun lately, so getting to know the rules around that is very interesting.
Dark Sun was one of my favourite 2nd Ed settings. I hope you're having fun with it! For me, it was like Dune, but without the boring bits.
I really enjoyed these two AD&D reviews. Thanks.
I am more than happy to have provided some entertainment for you :)
Great video, thanks! I think 2nd Edition AD&D is terrific as long as you keep it to the core PHB, DMG and MM...and go with your imagination.
Imagination is the best tool for every RPG 🙂
Thank-you!
46:16 this is sort of the mind-blowing aspect of it. The sheer amount of campaign settings and novels. Where I lived at the time, I barely met anyone that knew how to run this stuff. If you could find a GM you were lucky.
The stuff must have been selling though for them to have churned out so much of it.
From interviews with figures like Peter Adkinson, and the ultimate bankruptcy of TSR and purchase by WotC - it wasn't necessarily selling. At least, not well. Adkinson has told of warehouse full of unsold/returned stock, and you can draw a definite line at the WotC purchase - after which, campaign settings and source was severely curtailed until 3E, and has never come close to the 2nd Ed. output during any WotC edition period since.
Love to hear about the history and your love for the game. You're the kind of veteran I'd love to play with.
Thank-you! It's fun to reminisce 🙂
Ian, I still use the stuff you emailed me in 2000 for my Sherwood Adventures 3e campaign - now using Castles & Crusades. And I liberally use 2e materials with it. Thank you again!
Good grief, that was a while ago! I'm glad you've found it useful! :)
I was one of those guys that tried to get everything they put out. Failed miserably, but still tried (Life got in the way some). I do have a nice collection of AD&D and AD&D 2e from it though. I LOVED the novels (Forgotten Realms) read others but bought and read every FR I could get. I appreciate your time and effort and thank you for the trip down memory lane.
Thank-you for commenting :) And kudos for the attempt. The volume of stuff TSR kicked out did not make that an easy task!
The novels are hit and miss for me. Some I love to bits. Others had a battle to keep my interest. And others still didn't excite me enough to even bother at all. There were a hell of a lot of them, divided between a relatively low number of authors - they may have done better (in my opinion, of course) with fewer novels that had more time devoted to them. But, as with all things creative - mileage varies.
I know this is a 2 year old video, but the black cover core books were published in 1995 by TSR, not by WotC in 1997.
You're right, thank-you for the correction.
Your video was enjoyable. Unfortunately, I am one of those naysayers, that thinks had TSR survived it would of only been to be gobbled up by a company like Hasbro. The truth sad part is I've seen how many similar mistakes of flooding the market and ignoring the fans has been repeated several times. This is a very informative history lesson in addition to being a review of the AD&D era.
Indeed. It's often hard to witness history repeating itself, but it's too often where we find ourselves.
I still play AD&D 2E to this day. To me it’s the best for a couple reasons. It’s more challenging than more recent editions. You go into every fight from a point of weakness rather than power. And what I enjoy the most is the different rule options. If you wanna do something, there’s a rule that makes it possible and balances it out. Obviously you can home brew any edition. But 2E gives you in my opinion the most amount of options youre not forced to homebrew if you don’t want to make the effort. That being said I have every 2E book and some of the compendium sets are $400+ and single books almost $200. Luckily I got them all when they were $10-25 and avail in used bookstores
All good reasons, but subjective ones. I'd argue that 3E is the edition that presents the most custom options, both within the official and the very extensive D20 works, rather than 2nd. But again, that's subjective opinion and does depend on what directions you're customising in.
For folks just after the material, rather than the originals for collections, all of the Compendiums are available via DriveThruRPG - 2nd Ed. still lives.
(It also remains the edition that I've played most over the years, mainly because it was the tournament standard during the 1990s - fond memories)
Nice history, you positively glowed at certain points. You might want to consider an episode on Dragon Magazine alone.
That's not a bad idea! Thank-you.
I am new to Dungeons & Dragons I will be playing my first game about two weeks and I'm super excited. I've been trying to do some research but everything is 4th edition and 5th edition very hard to find information on older stuff. I'm very thankful for your channel and the information you give, I appreciate it very much
I'm glad you find them useful. Good luck for your first game! Don't be worried if anything seems confusing at first - it'll figure itself out. By far the best way to learn is to play :)
Some kits modified classes more than others mechanically. The Blade Singer from the Elves' Handbook springs first to mind. Some kits allowed non human characters thematic access to classes that were otherwise restricted, like the Bard's Handbook had a dwarven chanter or an elven miestersinger, halfling whistler, etc. (Not sure if I remember those titles exactly.) While a Barbarian only had adjustments to social reaction rolls from NPCs. So some kits were more of a heavy lift than others.
I did go mad for kits for a brief period, making them up for different cultural variants within my campaign world. They were a nice idea, particularly in those days when the previous option was to create a plethora of vaguely different classes.
Hi Ian I know I am late to the comments but I just found your videos. I like how you take the time to explain the history of D&D. Talking about the basic things you need to get started in every edition has helped me out. I got the second edition core books when I was 14. I didn't get to play very much but I enjoyed it. Keep up the good work. I am looking into basic and I have started pur having the books.
All good - they are there in perpetua, so there isn't a concept of "late" 🙂 I'm glad you're finding them useful!
A wonderful video. Thank you for taking me on a journey of 2nd edition dnd. A lot of nostalgia there for me too. I love your gaming cave too. 😍
Thank you 🙂 I do wish I didn't have so many trip hazards in that ol' cave, though!
I played 1e in junior and senior high… and 2e at university. I much prefer 1e and still play it today. But I still like hearing your thoughts on this edition.
Each edition brings its own thing to the party! Of all the legacy editions, Basic and 1st Ed. are the two I still play.
On one side, yeah it was an issue the amount of stuff you needed to consume just to run a campaign and at that point you might just create your own stuff.
On the other that era of TSR is extremely memorable and brought amazing settings that translated to other media, particularly video games, wich no other d&d version really did. How many people never played d&d but played things like Baldur's Gate or Planescape Torment.
The thing about settings is that it gives a bit of solidity to what you're presenting to your players since they'll be playing something written by authors and properly edited (and if it turns really stupid you can shift the blame to the authors, haha).
I still play those games from time to time. The real question is, how many players of them read the hundreds of lore books that you'd find, that did nothing to progress the game. They, like many of the setting books, were just unnecessary cash soaks. Well, encumbrance soaks...
14:54 😅 my 2nd book looks exactly simmilar to this! Still in use today (2023).
The cover, or equally as battered? 🙂
equally as battered…
@@awaytoanywhere699 The best books have proved their worth by being so!
Being a young person in the 90s my friends and I had to specialize in order to keep up with the product output. We were also at the mercy of what was available in physical stores. Greyhawk stuff was simply not sold in our area. We couldn't reference any of it if none of us were familiar, whereas now one could read about or watch a video on any setting material for free. (At least enough to get the sense of it.) I would still say we were/are fans even if we weren't familiar with every last iota of lore though. Its hard to say what critical mass of information makes one an enthusiast of any given setting or content. The glut of products may have fractured the fan base, but the business failure was also that many of those products were not profitable, as in not being cost effective. Their creative teams were not in touch with their finance and logistics people. They ran into a bind with their printer, and the rest is WotC.
I am still attending a RPG-group where we’re playing a2e d&d. great game. My PC is a bard. The rules on this class is a bit rough, though imho. Still like a2e a lot though. I consider it the ‘hard’ difficulty setting of d&d where 5e is ‘easy-normal’.
disclaimer: I’ve only played a2e and 5e, where a2e was the edition I grew up with in the early 90’s. Got away from the hobby for more than two decades, has now picked it up again (a few years ago). great review.
If you think 2nd Ed. bards are hard, don't go anywhere near 1st Ed! :D
I'm glad to welcome you back to the RPG hobby :) And, thank-you.
Apologies for the necro posting, but..
I really agree with the idea that TSR diluted its own product during the 90s. That's when I started playing the game, and I was desperate to pick up all of the campaign settings and source books that I could. Forgotten Realms had a glut of content, which I guess meant that I had a decent amount of books for that setting. But if I wanted Greyhawk? Known World? Dragonlance? These weren't being sold in any numbers anywhere at the time. For every 'normal' campaign setting book, there were a dozen sourcebooks/modules/boxed sets for Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, Red Steel, Birthright, Planescape, etc.
Now some of this might have been compatible with my own campaign setting, and I might have even enjoyed them in their own right. But somebody trying to run standard fantasy and wanting products for that? I know they were trying to reach or create new markets but they would have had a lot more money from their core demographic if they had stuck to what worked.
Yep, too much in the way of specific setting material, too little in across-the-board utility. When I think of some of the old books that I still use regularly today - it's things like the DM Design Kit and other generic resources.
I am really curious Ian on how you played 2nd edition
-what ability score generation did you use?
-how did you generate hit points?
-what level range did you like to play the most?
-did you use individual initiative or group initiative?
-favorite rules supplement (handbook series, etc)?
4d6, re-roll up to two dice, drop lowest. The PCs are meant to be a cut above the average heroes - I find this method has an expectation of average or higher.
Hit points - each newly acquired Hit Dice is rolled.
Levels 5-9. Personally, this sweet spot is where you can have games that feel heroic, without starting to feel superheroic. In higher-level games, for example, we had one character hold a swarm of 40 wraiths away from the party while yelling at the mage to centre a fireball on her. He did so. Wraiths were destroyed, character was "a bit singed". That sort of thing does make for a fun game, but is more kin to the superhero genre than the fantasy I enjoy. Not that I don't enjoy the superhero genre!
Initiative - it depends. Certainly at the start of 2nd we stayed with 1d6 group initiative for a while. But I DMd at tournaments a fair bit, which needed more consistency, and also a recognition that the guys and gals on a tournament table may not have met before - so a sense of individual achievement I felt was more important. So, for tournaments, I used individual initiative. Once I figured out how to DM that efficiently enough for tournament play, we adopted it for the home game.
Rules supplement... grief, 2nd had so many books that I got so much use from. I guess at this point, I would choose one that has use beyond 2nd Ed - so Castle & Campaign Guide, or Creative Campaigning, something like that. From a 2nd edition-centric view, Complete Humanoids was useful as a DMs tool for encounter building. I got a lot of fun out of that. If I'm allowed campaign books in here, then Spelljammer and Dark Sun, because they were different, and showed that D&D could indeed do more than pseudo-medieval fantasy.
Shout out for the Imagine magazine reference .. that was a great product back in the day
Too few issues, but some lovely stuff in them!
I was gutted when they stopped printing the magazine, out of nowhere really. The pullout adventures were generally always excellent but the city of Pelenore each month was the highlight for me.
@@davidjarkeld2333 It was a shame. It was just at that point when White Dwarf was turning increasingly Games Workshop Only, so having a UK TSR vehicle kept a good mix.
I guess the (minor) saving grace was that Dragon was becoming more widely distributed over here, with TSR UK picking up publication of that. But Imagine, and Pelinore, had a very distinctive British feel to them that I think, sadly, has been lost in mainstream role-playing today. Raise a glass to those halcyon days.
I always played 2e in the 90s by the book (and by that, I mean the PHB, DMG, and Monster Manual plus house rules. And then also what we liked from the class splatbooks). It was all homebrewing stuff, as the DMG encouraged, and I thought these campaign settings are for the people without creativity ^^; (Okay, I did get the Dark Sun one because that seemed so totally different from the stuff the regular rules offered, which was interesting enough to take a look.)
Well, you could also argue the settings were for people that didn't have time - or, as you with Dark Sun, liked a concept someone else had dreamed up.
Anyway, 2nd Ed was my go-to during the 1990s, too. Probably played more of that than any other game in that period.
Bravo! What an excellent overview of a great game system and really, if you're a fantasy fan...a treasure trove of what made old school gaming so fun and fascinating. I'd add that BG 1 and 2 plus Icewind Dale and Planescape/Torment really made 2nd edition rules approachable to the computer game enthusiasts. To this day, I'm still playing them and loving every minute....anyways, great analysis and your way of summarizing such as vast subject is deeply appreciated! By the way, I still have some of those 2nd edition Character Kit books. For sheer novelty, one that I have is the Charlemagne Paladin class. I don't think I ever used it, but I thought it was kind of cool, as I'm also a big history buff. Ok, Cheers from early morning Vancouver, Canada!
And good evening from a rainy England! And, of course, thank you for your kind words - I'm glad you enjoyed the video :)
I have a question:"why dont you just carry on doing what your doing?" Good one brother appreciated
I am also a 1984 -86 1st Edition player who now 36 years on has joined up with my original 5 once more. Now aged 50 he he...Id just like to comment on 53 mins 27 seconds, TSR was Deaf and didnt listen to its customers...
One thing that should be really highlighted is that when talking about the demise TSR is that the CE0 (Lorraine Williams) took the company from Gary Gygax the creator of D&D and the founder of TSR from 1974 to 1985, Lorraine ran it from 1985 to 1995, she was only employed by Gary Gygax in March 1985 as a manager due to her background to help sort the company out because TSR had done $35 million turn over but was $1.5 million in debt. Gary was unaware and was away during this time 1984 to try and create a dungeon and dragons movie out in Hollywood, this is something his two business partners Kevin and Brian Blume had arranged, whilst Gary was away Kevin ran up huge bills including using TSR money to retrieve from the ocean a ship wreck !!
So in 1984 he returned in a panic and in early March 1985 he employed Lorraine Williams to sort things out and she got rid of Kevin Blume because he acted against the interest of TSR. He had no idea he was about to be hit by a 20th level magic users lightning bolt as Lorraine arranged with the other two partners to buy there shares, she was now in Oct I think 1985 the main share holder by far and made herself CEO...
Gary was devastated as she now owned everything he had created not just D&D the game but even his GreyHawk world and even his player characters such as the earliest recorded player character Mordenkainen.
Remember that for 11 years 1974 to 1985 Gary the co owner was a player and always had everything play tested, the only reason he was never sole owner was because in 1974 he was worried he had let so many friends and fellow Gen Con players play test his D&D he panicked it would be published by others and allowed Brian Blume (He met at Gen Con another of Gygax's creations) to buy his way in so that Gary could produce the game ASAP....
Now when you say TSR was Deaf I agree but id just like the public to know that the lady running it was not a gamer, allegedly hated games and never play tested anything (this allegedly comes from TSR employees), she just did things in bulk and had way to many people churning out stuff that was not selling well and as you say lost touch with the people...
Gary died in 2008 only 69 years old and with no relative money, the stress on that poor man over the last 10 years cut his life short thats for sure.....
TSR was his baby and he only created it because he could not find a publisher for D&D and so thought ill do it myself, I cant imagine how he must of felt bring tricked like he was....He was even sued by Lorraine (New TSR) when he created a couple of other games after 1985 that never published.
For this reason my party of 5 stayed true to 1st Edition and didnt want to help her TSR in any shape or form and so ignored the 2nd edition, it seems to be the most popular version for old timers today !
I hope that the new owners and gamers always remember how we ever got to Roll 20.
Many thanks for listening to my rant..... J R and I might see you at Gary Con (online this year) March 2021.
Gary was over the moon now owing majority shares but she had a shock for him worst than a 20th level magic users lightening bolt
It was... not the greatest time in the history of D&D. You could certainly tell the lack of playtesting going on - I may do a "worst of" video at some point, and there are certainly some prime candidates during the 1990s.
I'm not so partisan with companies (with a couple of exceptions), but there are certainly a lot of D&D products - and one entire edition - that I skipped due to a lack of, in my opinion, thought and quality considerations.
I've gone through 3.5e, pathfinder, 4e, 5e, basic, before finally getting to 2e... it's been a long road, but looking forward to trying some authentic Greyhawk and Dark Sun .
Ah, I should do one on campaign worlds... Dark Sun is one of my favourites.
@@WillyMuffinUK mine too, when I was a young boy, I somehow got a hold of the dark sun shattered lands pc game.. and that's what got me into d&d. it took another 15 years to manage to get my first book copy. but once it's in your brain i found it had never left. for me exploring 2e rulesystem is finally demystifying my nostalgic memories.
it's getting a hold of the Adventures in Greyhawk book, that made me realise how good the old setting writing was and pursuing the OSR. can't beat Carl Sargeant
I really like listening to your history of the settings and books
@@AAron-gr3jk What initially sold me on Dark Sun was the fact that it was very different, but a little like Dune (a book I love). What really sold it to me was playing in a Dark Sun tournament at Gen Con UK, with us all sitting there with looks of incredulity as the half-giant gladiator in the party rolled his damage...
@@WillyMuffinUK wow. I've never made it to that convention. I hit Dragonmeet pretty consistently because December is slow and I want Christmas presents I like :) ps I bought the dark sun POD
@@AAron-gr3jk I do miss it, especially when it was at Camber Sands. Happy days.
The earlier, original White Dwarf presentation is sorely missed; it had articles for a variety of genres, games, and publishers in every issue. It was as if they made a kind of 'zine omnibus each month.
I still cherish so many ideas from those back issues. I've played quite a few games because I saw WD articles for them.
Totally agree. White Dwarf was an absolute staple. Then it just became a shadow.
I really appreciated hearing about all this! Well told! Thank you!
Thank-you!
Nice! Great topics, please talk more about psions combats. See you
Noted, although I can't say psionics is particularly high on the priority list.
I enjoy this history side of things. I am new to DnD so all of this history is new to me, thank you for making such an informative video :D
Thank-you :) I'm glad your finding it useful!
@@WillyMuffinUK I've watched a few of your videos now and each one I learn something new :D Keep it up!
Love this video. Thanks very much, 2nd ed is still dear to my heart.
Thank you!
ad&d 2 best édition of d&d. Big Hug from Québec.
Subjective, but if that's your truth that makes you happy, all is good 🙂
@@WillyMuffinUK if this comment on the subjectivity of enjoying a role-playing game makes you happy... so be it
@@stefane1915 I think it is an important thing to remember - I'm no fan of edition wars!
Hey! I played a 1e Bard and worked him all the way to 23rd level. Show some respect! lol
You, sir, deserve a medal!
Great informative video mate, many thanks, my brother and I have been playing both 2nd edition d and d and call of cthulhu 3rd edition since the early days, just upgraded to 7th edition coc which we are really enjoying, but cant quite force ourselves away from 2nd edition dungeons and dragons!!!
Thank-you! I have a CoC video floating around here somewhere... That is one of my favourite games, too.
@@WillyMuffinUK Love 1920s coc! running the haunting for my brother and his girlfriend next week!! have you played any pulp cthulhu?
@@thecarterbrothers3315 I have, but my favourite is modern (or near-modern...) set within the UK, connecting real-life locations the players themselves are at least aware of, if not having visited them. I find it creates a different feel and atmosphere.
Pulp can get very Indiana Jones - which I love, but in games as the exception rather than the norm.
I run a 1990s campaign around a defunct s.e.t.i installation in Somerset a couple of years ago! Great fun!!!
@@thecarterbrothers3315 Sounds like fun!
Amen my good man! I've been prepping a start from the beginning campaign! Using my nephew and niece and their friends as guinea pigs! We start with red box and go one mini campaign per edition! Although I'm skipping 4th lol! I'm seriously looking forward to see how they take 3rd edition!
Sounds like fun! Enjoy :)
@@WillyMuffinUK I'm figuring about a four part for the first starting with the party's ancestors so to speak! Going forward I break out the dragons hoard so to speak! Bonus points go to players who can out min max an old school girl who knows what thac0 and how to make a true bard!
@@NinaJnoland So playing through their family histories? Sounds like fun :)
You will have to come and join us for a game! :) Great video.
Indeed! But Adam left us on a Spycraft cliffhanger already!! 😯
@@WillyMuffinUK when people can commit to lunch times again, I’ll pick it back up! So close to the end too :) - Adam
@@DieRollin heh... the end of us, probably - that mission did seem to be going south quickly 🤣
@@WillyMuffinUK 😜
I have run Paladin in Hell twice once in second edition AD&D and once converted to 3rd
How did Geryon fare each time?
I bought the core 2nd ed books only, i never really did the campaign settings after grey-hawk, and FR grey boxed set. As you said i have my own. And i just steal the good bits from the others really. Dragonlance is useless as a game setting unless your either all DL nerds, or you've never heard of it or read the books. As far as 1st ed and 2nd ed variations I personally prefer the 1st ED books. 2nd ed dropped the risky things and became more Disney and less Tarantino. I understand the move on a business perspective, But i still think the early d a d was a bit more metal. The 2nd ed rules were 100% easier to follow, other than the change to can-trips i cant recall anything i disliked about it as a reference book, however i never really used the monster binder or DMG from 2nd ed. i used the 1st ed books for that. i used what i liked from them all, dropped the rest. Great times.
By some strange comparison, in reference to your "1st Ed seems more metal than 2nd Ed" - I think metal through the late 70s and into the 80s (the 1st Ed period) is more metal than the late 80s through 1990s (the 2nd Ed period), coincidentally! I mean - there's some bloody good LPs in that 1977-1989 period!
@@WillyMuffinUK I have some great memories of power slave Rime of the ancient mariner, while creating lvl 30 wizards to battle Elric of melnibone. The good ol 80’s
@@xaxzander4633 One of Maiden's very best.
1e Monster Manuel does not detail monster's reach, unarmed weapon operation (width necessary), unarmed weapon speed factor, monster natural armor. Since, none of these factors which effected many of these monsters. These weapon factors which effected player charcters, but not monsters. DM didn't have a means to adjudicate monsters by those rules. That is why so many DM just didn't play with those rules when players faced those monsters in combat.
The DMG and PHB cover those factors for natural/unarmed attacks - they have a speed factor of 1 - so they don't need reiterating in the MM. Reach isn't so much a thing in early editions - long weapons indicated reach by being able to attack from rear ranks, a holdover from Chainmail. Space was a thing, though, with certain weapons requiring certain space to be able to operate them. For unarmed attacks, simply put - if the space is big enough for the creature, then it's big enough for it's attacks, subject to DM assessment.
How weapon attacks are affected by armour types is adequately explained in the DMG, including effect of natural armour - again, no need for reiterating in the MM.
Basically, in short, the factors you mention and how they affect weapon attacks are explicitly described within the AD&D rules. The various weapon factors are also outlined as being optional (usually by similar wording to "If you use [this element] in your games...". So this "permission" not to use them, combined with the uneccesary ballache of using them during games, is why most of the DMs from back when I know didn't use them, not because the MM didn't include information the DMG and PHB contained.
I get a sense that you are extrapolating back from the 3E MM, and expecting to see such detail in the 1st Ed. game. That's not a good comparison. 3E was a very different game, with a more codified rather than interpreted method of deriving statistics and handling situations.
Anyway, I'd recommend looking at the DMG entries for both armour and weapon stats, which answer at least some of the elements you note as being omitted by the MM.
@@WillyMuffinUK The 2nd edition weapon speed is factored much differently, than 1st edition. It does take into consideration size, which has a slower speed. Additionally, my mention of unarmed, also applies to natural atracks. Many predators would certainly qualify as having a weapon speed factor of 1. In the case of giants with weapons. Their weapons shall have a longer length, and wider range to operate.
This mostly is to give us an idea of monsters in a confined space. Its silly for a dragon to keep its lair inside of a breadbox. Yet, many players will seek refuge from giants in confined spaces. Then, there are cases in which tail attacks are made and those require a great deal of space. Much more than a creature swinging their fist.
@@josephpurdy8390 Correct - 2nd simplified it all, by reducing combat reference down from segments to initiative scores.
But not sure how your second comment ties to your first?
Not gonna lie, coloring the b/w art in your rpg books is a pretty boss move. I never even considered.
🤣 I was very young. I knew no better. All the B&W art I'd come across to that point was there to be coloured!
Nice talk. I wish you’d do more of these :)
This is the edition I would’ve played if my mother hadn’t burned my DMG because Satan 🙄
I’ll add - I like how you talk about the whole constellation of the genre - tie-in books and computer games and how they played into the changes to the game. Not many commenters are doing that, and certainly not as thoroughly.
Small request - please leave text on screen for a few more beats.
Ouch... The "Satanic panic" was more real for some than others! It never really took off in the UK - our game books were relatively safe from burning.
As for the comprehensive thing... yes... I'm trying to show the evolution of the hobby and its branches - and, yes, I've not seen many tie the gamut together. Hopefully, the series taken as a whole, with all the different games and editions, will show the patterns of the development of games.
Also - noted about the text. I'll extend it out a bit in future videos.
Thank-you!
Great Video Thank you for your time on these.
I'm now reading up on DarkSun Official materials I've purchased, and am blown away at the breath of the setting.
I love at how comprehensive and unique the setting is, as well as how focused and thereby accessible.
Did you play DSun back in the day? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love a solid DSun video you, given your insights into.....
Willy, you do realize that you are now a wizened sage, of at least 20th lvl.
Wizened probably, sagacious unlikely!
Dark Sun was one of my fave 2nd Ed settings. I will do some bits on various gaming milieus - Dark Sun included, and not just limited to the D&D ones.
I still remember, Gen Con UK, Dark Sun tournament... I forget what I was playing, but I remember all of us around the table staring agog at the player of the half-giant gladiator when he announced damage he'd just inflicted upon some poor, then-annihilated soul!
@@WillyMuffinUK
Willy as I read the various resource books for Dark Sun, the adventure hooks just jump out at one. (Dune Traders for example).
The published adventures need some serious adaptation, but have some solid bleached bones to work from.
Further with Defilers and preservers and Elemental clerics, and Psionicists .... all very unique character potentials to work with.
Other than the new GrimDark Symbaroum setting, Dark Sun is the only other setting that seems.... somehow serious enough
@@YukonJack88 Ah, but sometimes a touch of the less serious is good, too. Spelljammer was another of my favourites, and I am looking forward to the 5E version of that arriving!
Just discovered your channel and working through the videos. good stuff so far, the comment about TSR being the cause of death of TSR by not listening to customers is pretty ironic considering the year WOTC has been having
You're right, and it doesn't escape me... It's interesting to see history repeating!
I've been playing/DMing D&D since Basic/AD&D and it's apparently a lot of D&D TH-camrs first experience with D&D is 5E. I notice they comment about homebrew rules they come up with and I comment, "Actually that rule was in 2E/3.5E/4E." There's a reason 5E doesn't have X rule because 5E simplified the D&D system from the rules bloat, especially in 3.5E.
tl;dr Learn your (D&D) history so you don't repeat it (homebrewing rules that already existed).
I agree, I've seen similar. There's also a huge archive of articles from Dragon and other areas that address all sorts of things, from the realism (or not) of studded leather armour, to whether paladins should always be lawful good, to... well... all manner of questions that are being asked/answered/debated now, that have long since been asked/answered/debated by those of us with a bit more grey.
Willy, the reason why your 1st edition book is in better shape than your 2nd edition one is actually not the amount of play you put it through. It's how the book was made. A little known fact for you. Gary Gygax insisted that 1st edition AD&D would be created and bound to US schools textbook standards. Meaning the same level of care, the same materials, the same quality of paper, ink (archival), everything, had to meet the stringent standards of high school, and grade school book publication that are used in the United states. Books for those schools are expected to stand up to multiple years of use, and being swapped between student for literally 15 years. FAR FAR more wear than a game book should expect. The 2nd edition books and the UA book from 1st edition were NOT held to those same standards... which is why those books fall apart a whole lot faster. So your 2nd edition book... it should have looked as good or better than the 1st edition book... if it had been bound like the 1st edition books were. So there you go.
Thank-you, Steven - I didn't know that. And it makes a lot of sense, looking at the state of my 1st Ed books vs. 2nd across the board. Actually, my UA isn't in too bad shape, but certainly the 2nd Ed. PHB and DMG aren't the only 2nd Ed. hardbacks that are showing their age. ToM isn't quite on the "spine replaced with electrical tape" list, but it's close!
Well, interesting review Willy! Yes, all you need is the player's handbook to play. Although having the other books helped a lot. Although I'm a realist, as much as I liked second edition of AD&D, I did move on to D&D 3.x.
I'll bite - why does that make you a realist?
@@WillyMuffinUK Because I could do more with 3.x and the OGL.
@@eltonrobb6208 Where does. that tie into being a realist? I'm not knocking you here, just trying to understand what you're saying.
This series is great for a newish DM to understand the history of DND
Thank you! The intent is for it to be useful :)
Dude your house looks like mine. lol Gaming stuff and guitar cases. Great channel. Subbed
That's just my office. My house is... marginally better 😁
Thank-you!
@@WillyMuffinUK Right on! lol
Wonderful video! I am a huge fan of Planescape though I've never been able to actually run a game yet. This video is very inspirational and I think I should make more of an effort to get a game going!
Definitely! No time like the present to get things going!
This was an awesome review. I was introduced to the game through AD&D 2nd edition, played for many years, and then went on to run my own campaign. We tried 3rd edition, but I found it too restrictive. While it can slow down the action in certain cases, I prefer the DM to be able to interpret and modify where needed.
I looked through your videos but don't see anything regarding 3e and above (was looking for 5e). I hope you one day have the time to do it.
Thanks! You'll find 3E here : th-cam.com/video/9Q-auCbSuZY/w-d-xo.html
4E and 5E I haven't yet reached (lots of other games to cover beyond the D&D sphere!)
@@WillyMuffinUK Thanks!
I just discovered your channel today, and I subscribed. :)
Thank-you :)
What a good memory of yours ♥- Instant Sub & Like - absolutely agree with you, the 2nd edition was the last one to enjoy
My memory seems to enjoy being selective. I can remember stupid bits of minutiae - but some songs bust my brain when playing live! I'm glad you found it useful.
I like the micro Marshall 1/2 stack. Noice!
It'd be nicer if it didn't eat batteries for breakfast. Handy little practice amp, though.
(still early in the video)
I feel like there is a lot that happened into the 90s with D&D and into 2001 with the third edition that happened alongside and with the 'corporatization' of the game. The distance between producer and consumer, game maker and player; that did widen. But that happened with the game changing to be able to function in such a way. Moving into third edition it was no longer as necessary for someone in the group to be engaged with the magazines and the game shops to fully know how to use the game. And while I love my game shops, the need for this time and money often involved with being active in such a community did limit who could reasonably play it. Sure, anyone with the core books in theory could figure it out... but realistically you had to be invited in. And as a result, the game was largely being played only by the middle class white men and boys that were welcome in game shops and that were friends or their fellow middle class white friends, still mostly guys. Which wasn't ever the intention... but a systemic problem that was never addressed.
Hasbro, of course, has done some pretty bad shit in its time holding on to the IP, but one good thing has been turning the game into something that was way, way easier to get involved with. D&D has expanded greatly into including women and people of color. There are many factors for this, but one is that Hasbro actually considered them as a potential consumer of the game. But along with that, the 'cleaning up' that Hasbro did (for better or worse for the game itself) made it way easier to engage with on its own. Hasbro of course has never actually cared about this- some of the D&D staff has, of course- but they are a corporation. They want money. Which has accidentally lead to some pretty great things.
I really don't know why I got so ranty. This is intended mostly as some critical thought on the idea of the 'corporatization' of D&D and isn't really critique of the video as a whole. As the name implies, I'm the Devil's Advocado here... and there isn't much more like the devil than a corporation.
(with that, I continue on your video)
25:40 No, that's actually the right words for it. And it can lead to a good critique to much of the D&D set ups of what is 'civilization' and what is 'savage'... and with that, a question of if we are repeating tropes that could be harmful. The real change is our willingness to accept a 'horde of savages' as a reasonable enemy. For us to go 'oh, well, these are orcs, so it's fine' isn't... quite as accepted. And many of the stories in 'The Savage Frontier' are cowboy stories with a different environment. Of course, the concept of colonization is theoretically morally neutral. The idea of a culture going to some other place and making a new city isn't itself harmful. It's what doing so does to that new land that is. A good exploration of a different sort of colonization is often explored in Star Trek and indeed you can tell such a story in the Forgotten Realms as well.
29:50 Oh... that explains so much about the miserable story used for 4th edition. I knew about the Avatar crisis but I didn't know it was tied to the change in editions.
Interestingly, 3rd didn't really try this, I don't think.
2nd to 3rd was a little lite - but the last 2nd products were about ending campaigns. The Apocalypse Stone is one, but alongside that you had Die Vecna Die, which did have some ramifications going into 3rd (Vecna as a god, for example).
A lot of the "corporatisation" already happened, with the 1990s incarnation of TSR - even back into the early/mid 1980s it was heading that way.
WotC were seen as still in the "hobby mode" of companies, but given Pokémon and so on, I think that wasn't quite a true reflection. Adkinson gave a presentation at UK GenCon where he went over the acquisition in a frame of saving D&D from the failed corporate monster of TSR. I can't remember whether this was shortly before or shortly after the sale to Hasbro, but whichever - it made the "saviour" tone of that presentation somewhat hollow in the long run.
As for needing to be invited in, I'm not sure I agree with that. It might well be down to different areas, different people, so on. Actual game stores that stocked RPG materials back in the day in the UK were very few and far between, and even fewer had a community built around them. By and large, groups figured things out on their own with their friends. Most of the groups I've played in over the years have had good female representation - but, I guess, the "white middle class" observation did still apply. That may just be the way things appeal - does a game constructed around western mythology and literature necessarily speak to people with a completely different baseline? And, while that aspect has improved, I still see most RPG players hailing from the white middle-class group.
I don't think the middle-class bit is going to be broken any time soon, with the entry level for most games being at least £100.
2e adventures were 1/3 combat, 1/3 role-play, & 1/3 exploring, traps, & puzzles. That was a big improvement over 1e, which lacked real role-playing.
I feel like 5e leaves out the exploring, traps, & puzzles & balances combat, which means PCs can march around without fear and kill everything-hence murder hoboes. I’ve seen players today complain that their character should be able to solve a puzzle with a skill check! And don’t get me started on free & easy healing!
5e is D&D on easy mode.
In 1st Ed, how did players interact with... Let's choose some early ones - Hommlet? Erelhei-Cinlu? Orlane? Barovia? Many others? I think to make a sweeping statement like 1st Ed lacked role-playing is to misrepresent many of the published adventures, and ways in which the game was being played. Additionally, within 2nd Ed you have Nightmare Keep, Haunted Halls, Swamplight, and many other published adventure that have much lower role-playing content than many 1st Ed. ones. It is very much not as clear cut as you are trying to illustrate. Largely, it was down to the play style of a group.
Sort of agree with 5E, though - in fact, from 3E on that's been an issue. The trick is to not make the whole game about skill checks, which in many ways 5E, with its more focused selection of skills, does better than 3E.
@@WillyMuffinUK Exactly. What passed for a "role-playing game" in the 1970s and '80s was just talking to a tavern-owner to get the information you need to find the dungeon. I'm talking about proper, story-based, linked-adventure, ongoing-villains role-playing. That developed gradually, especially with the release of Forgotten Realms, which did a much better job than Greyhawk of encouraging ongoing stories. 2e hit a couple years later, and I suspect a lot of tables decided then to start a new, more sophisticated campaign in FR.
@@Tysto I still think you are misrepresenting things somewhat. Sure, a lot of early D&D modules were self-contained, but quite a few were not - and the scope was there for enterprising DMs to lace things together into a narrative that suited their campaign. We certainly did/do. The more rigid story frameworks began with DragonLance - I'm interested to know which FR adventures you consider to have sophisticated narratives? I think the FRA trilogy does, but no more or less than I3-5, for example.
You also need to bear in mind that RPG players shifted focus from running primarily their own worlds and adventures, to using published settings more by the advent of 2nd Ed. Where you say Greyhawk didn't do as good a job of story framing as, FR, I'd suggest that this was partially due to those earlier modules being less anchored to setting lore than later ones. For example, the GDQ sequence is readily adaptable to most settings, while the FRE sequence could only take place in the Realms - it's far too tethered.
Of course, a fair chunk of that shift tied into marketing. Why sell one adventure that people can adapt to their own taste, when you can sell a box, 16 supplements, a sled of novels, a bunch of modules that only work when used together, the box again as modified by the events of said modules, etc. Colour me cynical, but in large part where you see "sophisticated", I see "accountancy".
Ad&D 1st edition and that ‘s all
Willy,
First of all, you are the best youtuber on old DnD ever, love your videos.
Is there any difference between the "Revised" edition (Black books) and the TSR version apart from art, layout and etc? Any difference strictly in the rules or math and etc?
Well, thank-you!
Rules-wise, not much. Most of the differences are peripheral - a few spells coming over from the Tome of Magic, some odds and sods learned and ported in from the PHBR series - but nothing significant in the underlying system.
Hope that helps!
Things I can remember us reacting to when 2nd Edition came out: "I liked the level titles for different classes. Why'd they get rid of those?" "Feels kind of generic."/"I never liked potion miscibility tables." / "Forgotten Realms be big and full of stuff." / "Dragonlance is boring." / "They're just trying to sell us books." / "What's the Internet?" / "I'm gonna make a half-elf cambion wild mage barbarian." / "What do you mean 'that's stupid'?" / "You're stupid." / "There's just so many shiny new things in 2d edition." / "Planescape is incredible." / "I'm not going to DM Planescape, forget that shit." / "Too bad only 12 people like Spelljammer, I think it's kind of cool." / "We can just play Isle of Dread."
Heh... Not too dissimilar here. Although I like the potion miscibility table 🤣
@@WillyMuffinUK I guess maybe that was just me. When I tell younger players about the potion miscibility table, they think the idea is fantastic. I admit that I have nostalgia for the granularity of 1st/2nd Edition.
I've been D&D2E4Life.
Always remember- it's a game, not a cult ;)
@@WillyMuffinUK But it's more fun when you ride the line between both! :P
I do want to agree with your point on the commercialization of the game. However, I would also point out that the community has kind of come full circle with homebrew content actually becoming an official part of the game in 5e. It's still been dumbed down, but I feel it's become player and content driven, despite the numerous adventure modules being written.
Maybe that's just my perspective as a younger generation though.
And all that side of things will be part of the eventual 5E video! Well, actually, the start of it will be with the 3E video and the advent of the OGL.
@@WillyMuffinUK 3E was my introduction to DnD and my sweet spot for the game as well. Can't wait!
Anyone have a first edition Chainmail PDF for me to borrow? 😬
Good Sir, you touched on much regarding D&D lore and evolution. Well done.
P.S. Truly, I miss my Dragon Magazine arriving in the mail...
Me too. Dragon - and White Dwarf before it went totally GW - arriving through the letterbox were highlights in the month for me.
@@WillyMuffinUK I recall a fleeting thought... decades ago... of wanting to subscribe to Dungeon magazine as well... yet never did.
@@DerSchleier Similar. I've since collected most Dungeon magazines, subscription to it didn't appeal at the time. Mainly because I felt that the quality control of articles within Dragon was by far better than that of adventures in Dungeon - I wasn't enamoured with the idea of buying a magazine regularly that only 1/3rd of the content of every 4th issue would be of any use to me.
2nd Edition was the first edition I played and still my favorite. If I were going to homebrew my optimal system though, I think it would be 2E with the skill system and Saving Throws of 3E. I hate how Feats and Stat Boosts from 3rd edition onward have made most characters basically superheroes by the time they get to level 12. 2nd Edition is also the time TSR produced some of their best and some of their worst products. Sure, they transitioned to more plot-based adventures, but MOST of them weren't quite as linear and railroad-y as DragonLance, and actually had branching paths and, sometimes, even multiple endings. The artwork in 1E had started out really rough and amateurish, but by the time of 2E the art was consistently great and so was the print quality.
In addition to 2E just having too many campaign settings, I feel there were other factors in the bloat of their catalog that helped sink them, though:
1. Dividing their resources (and player base) between AD&D and Basic - Another case of competing with themselves. They made a huge push to revitalize Basic D&D in the early 90s with the Rules Cyclopedia, several board game sized box sets, the "Thunder Rift" series of modules, and the Gazetteer and Hollow World campaign settings. I was 12 when this stuff came out and had just started playing in my first AD&D adventure. I wasn't sure if Advanced and Basic were compatible, but it was the only stuff that wasn't branded with a specific campaign setting so I figured it would be easier to work into a campaign. :/
2. The tremendous ratio of "Accessory" products to actual adventures - I remember going to game/book stores as a teenager and 60% of the AD&D product was accessories or supplements (usually setting-specific). A lot of these accessories would turn out to be either nothing but fluff or nothing but maps and expect you to write your own adventure. The vast number of modules I bought as a kid were second-hand 1E modules I picked up at used book stores and garage sales.
3. Campaign Setting Revisions - Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft each had 2 box sets and a hard cover campaign settings printed and I'm pretty sure Greyhawk and Dark Sun had 2 box sets each. And sure, you've got to keep the campaign settings in print if you're going to keep supporting them, but in the case of Ravenloft at least, not only was the information revised, so was the actual plane of Ravenloft. Thanks to the Grand Conjunction, some lands vanished and were replaced by others between the "Realm of Terror" and the Red Box version of the campaign setting, and again by the time of the "Domains of Dread" hardcover. It's a real bummer if you bought an adventure that took place in one of those lands that already vanished. But these later revisions still make reference to the "Realms of Terror" and " Forbidden Lore" box sets, so you still kinda need them too.
4. Licensed products and expanding into comics - I'm sure when they did the Indiana Jones and Conan/Red Sonja RPGs in the 80s they did fairly well as they had media to tie in with. The Marvel Super-heroes RPG and especially Buck Rogers in the 25th Century RPGs never seemed to be big sellers (at least in my area). Of course they also had to jump into the comics bubble of the 90s. While they had great quality books and art, they were also priced much higher than most comics from DC, Marvel, etc and must not have sold well since apparently none of the series lasted past issue 4.
5. Too many formats and too many products overall. Saddle-stitched modules, perfect-bound books, hardcover books, boxsets of various sizes without a clear and consistent reasoning for why a certain product was a certain format or price point. Sure, the rules were FAR easier to understand than First Edition but, you still needed someone who already plays to tell you where to get started and what you need due to the sheer number and different types of products. When you're a 12-year-old with a $10 weekly allowance you must choose carefully.
All good points. You have to remember that TSR was legally obliged to keep D&D in print, but that didn't mean they had to go the whole hog, as they did.
I can understand the campaign revisions to a certain extent. If you're going to publish a setting with an ongoing story, you have two options - publish update supplements to the main set, describing the changes from the ongoing plot (which means, to make sense you'd have to keep the main set constantly in print), or fold the changes into a revised set (which means you can draw a line under plot and product to that point).
Personally, I'm more in favour of having settings that describe the milieu up to a fixed point, and then say to DMs - "up to you from here". From a business perspective though, that doesn't generate the same volume of product. Which might not be a bad thing.
Far too many supplements and formats, yes. One thing I did get a sense for as a consumer was TSR throwing the kitchen sink out, trying to find something that would stick and bring in the $$$. As it was, they diluted the game while bloating it at the same time, and ended up with a ton of unsold experiments.
Also, great video! I'd much rather watch a lengthier, comprehensive video like this than have the subject broken up into 5 or 6 videos 20 mins each and have to sit through an intro and ads that many times.
Thank you. Me too, which is why all of these game videos are "as long as they need to be". Which means some are shorter than others, depending on how much history and product I need to wade through :)
The shear size of the output made TSR unprofitable, it made more books as it got paid in advance and then it couldn't shift them fast enough.
Yep. Completely misunderstood the marketplace. Successfully out-competed with itself into oblivion.
Great video. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I remmember when 2.nd edition came out. Good times. I really liked what they did to monsters especially dragons.
Edit: Played our own mix of 1.st and 2.nd edition rules.
First - Spaceballs, brilliant movie.
(Edited, due to my old-age confusion thinking you'd replied to a different video!)
Yes, 2nd Ed made dragons a LOT scarier! Although they didn't conveniently fit in dungeon rooms anymore... We also mixed'n'matched 1st and 2nd for a bit - 2nd took some things out of 1st we really liked, and tidied up others, so our 2nd Edition games were more like our own take on "Basic, 1st, and 2nd Greatest Hits" :)
Where can I find the article you wrote about the differences between 1e and 2e?
I think the best version of it still around is here: web.archive.org/web/20010429183820/www.wizards.com/dnd/dnddefinitivefaq.asp
Someone folded my original notes into a wider article, but at least they credited me and Lawrence Mead for our work 🙂
There's also an archive of a conversion post I wrote that highlights changes and how to manage them when converting modules:
members.tripod.com/lord_eadric/first2second.html
(That email address for me no longer exists, just to note)
After teaching or explaining AD&D & other older editions to players who started on 4 or 5 many times, I've become increasingly convinced that the experience of learning an edition when it was new - with one set of external/cultural understandings and preconceptions of what it was - is fundamentally different than the experience of learning it retroactively, with a different set of understandings and expectations.
So often they'll be looking for something that isn't there or failing to grasp a central concept that I think felt obvious and even intuitive at the time but is clearly not now. I don't think it's a case of anybody being smarter than anyone else, so much as almost speaking a different native dialect of gaming.
Combining this with... The natural flexibility of TTRPGs in general, I feel like many modern players end up playing 2E *with a 5E "accent"* and may miss some of what makes it unique? And of course, players that are native to an older edition are doing the same with newer ones, especially if there's a long gap in their history of following the game through all editions.
Interesting thoughts, and probably true. We play all sorts of editions and mixtures, but I think you are right - when we play 5E we do seem to flavour it more towards earlier editions, at least in play style.
So, did you like and prefer, and do you still prefer today, 2nd Edition? I'm assuming so, due to that old and wonderful 1989 PH, but assuming is so dangerous. Thnx for the history and thoughts! Would you have gone with ascending AC and simple pluses for then THACO had you thought of them?
That is a difficult one to answer. 1st and 2nd are perhaps the two most closely related of all (A)D&D editions, yet the differences are there. I guess you could say my favourite edition is 2nd, but with elements of 1st that I like replacing or adding to their 2nd equivalent.
But then, I also enjoy BX/BECMI, 3rd, and 5th - again, with elements from all sorts of places mixed in. The only editions I really don't get along with are 0E and 4th. The former because I like a bit more structure and consistency, while 0E was a bit like the Wild West of throwing things in. 4th because it's a boardgame. It works well as the foundation for that series of boardgames (Wrath of Ashardalon et al), but is useless in terms of what I want from an RPG.
Everyone has wildly different opinions on D&D's editions, but I will end this essay with this note: of all the fantasy games I play (not just D&D), if it's a quick evening's one-off game we want, 9 times out of 10 it's B/X we reach for. Whatever that says!
@@WillyMuffinUK Awesome! Thnx for the reply... and for me and my family, we agree, but my kids tend to heavily favor BFRPG (Basic Fantasy RPG - Sort of a B/X clone). 👍
@@retrodmray Reminding me to add some kind of OSR clone review video to my "to do" list. But there are so, so many these days! Basic Fantasy is one I have read through, though :)
@@WillyMuffinUK I'd love to hear your take on BFRPG as well. I've got my own channel with videos too... quite opinionated and perhaps passionate, but you may be interested.
I'll be reading through BFRPG and commenting on it as well soon, with my 40+ yrs of D&D gaming under my belt. Many blessings, sir 👍
@@retrodmray Interesting B/X series you have - I'll take a watch. Thrown in a subscription, too. Us "oldies" need to stick together :D
couldn't agree more D&D and RPG's have moved from counter culture at their beginning to main stream corporate marketing test groups. 5e is designed to be vanilla, appeal to the most number of people possible, offend no one....and as a result it is like tepid water that i want to spit out of my mouth. 2e still had a voice and personality. it had something to say. i love the granularity... like weapon speed effects on iniative.
I do like it that there is still an underground" in the RPG world of games that have something to say, so all is not lost.
Hey mate... I found your channel when looking for AD&D 2e videos. I've been unsatisfied with 5e and its overpowered "superhero" feel, and have been exploring a few other games. I started with 3e, but my first exposure to D&D was 2e videogames like Pool of Radiance, Baldur's Gate, Dark Sun, etc., so I've always had an attachment to the system without having played it.
I was looking for something "like" 2e, something a little less complicated. I had fallen for the bogeyman about 2e being complicated. Then someone told me - 2e really isn't as complicated as its made out to be. I love Call of Cthulhu. I really like GURPS. I love Low Fantasy Gaming (Australian designer, check it out). So I decided to give 2e a go, and since making that decision I've been loving everything I read and play.
This video is really interesting, and I've really gotten sucked into your channel. I love your earnest style, its not flashy and over the top like so many RPG videos. You are clearly speaking from a position of experience and well-researched knowledge. I love the structure of your reviews, especially the history. History is so important in establishing context to make a judgement of something.
Anyway, keep at it. I'm loving the videos and I'm really looking forward to what game system you do next.
Thank-you! I'm glad you're finding them useful and entertaining. 2nd Ed, for me, is really a simplification of 1st, and cleans up a few things. It sounds like you're having a blast with it :)
I'm baffled why there is a limited resurgence in interest in AD&D 2E. I played it to death in the 90s and the arrival of 3e in 2000 was a sweet breath of fresh air.
2e is archaic, limited in scope and was creaking in its dotage against game systems like Vampire the Masquerade.
3e has its faults sure, but it saved D&D from irrelevance. I blame interest in AD&D 2e on the 20 year(ish) nostalgia cycle. Except somethings don't get better with age (Note: the 2E campaign settings were amazing; the rules were...not).
And yet, more people played 2nd Ed than VtM at its height.
But anyway... WotC did a good job at bringing D&D back from the brink with 3E. But it is pretty much "Rolemaster Very Lite" - see video on it hereabouts. It did break away quite a bit from what people understood as "D&D". Now, everyone's mileage will differ on whether that's a good or bad thing.
As for why there's a mini resurgence in it - no clue. Nostalgia, perhaps. 2nd Ed occupies a funny ground between a more traditional OSR base - which OD&D, Basic, and 1st Edition align with - and the modernised era beginning with 3rd. People like what people like, though - that one person doesn't like a game does not preclude someone else enjoying it to the hilt.
That was cool. Thanks
Thank-you - glad you found it useful!
@@WillyMuffinUK I'm looking for a setting similar to Skyrim. Something with an imperial power in the south, Nordics in the north, and an elven kingdom in the west and the wilds in the centre. A kind of contested wilds full of exploration and adventure.
I've been thinking about making it myself, but I'm sure it's already been done and I just can't find it.
@@martinbowman1993 I don't know anything about Skyrim, but that does resemble quite a few general fantasy worlds - Mystara and the Warhammer Fantasy world, for example.
@@WillyMuffinUK Skyrim has the Nords in the north, they are Barbarians, in the East there is an Elven kingdom, and in the south there is the Imperials. They look like Romans. There are also middle eastern looking people in red coats.
basically the game has an over arching story where the Nords make up the bulk of the imperial army recruits and the elves are at war with the Imperials so they are involved in getting the Nords to revolt.
also the land is kind of in the wilds. Like Dwarves used to live there but they all entered a portal and left, so there are ruined Dwarven cities.
I like the general premise of the land - it is a contested space between Great Powers. It has both ancient and new stuff as well as tons of towns and castles, but also ruins and dungeons, dragons, and giants.
Ravenloft wasn't supposed to be a campaign setting. It was a one off nightmare scenerio used to scare players shitless. It worked if used correctly.
Who is anyone to say what is "correctly" when it comes to a creative gameplay medium such as D&D? And sure, it was never originally meant to be a setting - but that's what it became, and did pretty well for itself.
Well, as a horror setting I guess. If people played in Ravenloft as just another world they were missing the point IMHO. I mean sure, technically it's a campaign setting, but running characters in only Ravenloft would be hellish and not much fun. Nonstop horror? Mind numbing man. LOL
I love Ravenloft BTW. I did it so well anytime it got misty or foggy in my normal campaign my players started sweating and complaining. "NOT AGAIN! AHHHH!". 🤣🤣🤣
@@anon-yw4wd 🤣
@@anon-yw4wd Different strokes. Personally, I never used it as an ongoing setting - but quite a few people did.
I'm really on the fence between first and second edition. Considering first edition POD versions as in my youth I was gifted a first edition PHB and to have that again in my hands! So it's the nostalgia and recalling spells etc. Though what's important is what will play better for my 49 year old mind to comprehend and reference with ease. Heard first edition DM guide isn't the best for that. Also, is it necessary to own all the supplements that came with 2nd edition to enjoy it? Ahh decisions decisions! Thank you!
2nd is easier to wrap your head around - and no, you only need to have the core to enjoy it. All of those PHBRs etc. are mere icing!
@@WillyMuffinUK Thanks Willy!! Oh wow I'm feeling it! Do you advise the original 2nd edition or the revised which the art work is diff but probally some typos etc corrected I'd imagine? Thanks
@@WillyMuffinUK Would you go with the revised edition or original? Original art work is better cover etc...any thoughts? thanks
@@scourneene I'm not one to care much about art. You can put all sorts of flashy art on a bad game, and it's still a bad game - and you can have a good game with the worst art ever (or no art at all), and it'll still be a good game.
From a rules perspective, though - I'd probably go for the revised (black cover) set. There isn't much difference between the two, but the layout is slightly clearer to my eye.
@@WillyMuffinUK That's very true about the art Willy! Eye Candy really! Ok I value your opinion so that's good to know! Thanks have a great weekend! Great channel btw!
To be honest, on top of the "history" value your series provide, it would be odd to ignore there is a modern and thriving industry (the so called "OSR") that is based on "older" systems. They publish a lot, and sell quite well.
I'm not ignoring them - I just haven't got to them yet :)
To be frank, I'll probably deal with the OSR in one or two videos, rather than each game individually. For a start, there are few that are truly unique - most are close reproductions of existing games. There are a few - for example, The Black Hack is more relevant than OSRIC or Swords & Wizardry, at least at this point in time, when the main reason for games such as OSRIC (use the OGL to reproduce an edition that is no longer available/supported) has been sidestepped somewhat (many of the original editions that OSR games reproduced are now available again, as PDF and/or POD), simply because The Black Hack something different to the table than a general reproduction.
There is also the argument that OSR games, with their ties to the OGL, open up the market for authors to produce material for their favoured game via a back door. For example, the Cepheus Engine seems to have little purpose than to enable the marketing of Classic Traveller-compatible material. That sounds cynical, and it is in a way. But that is how certain OGL games appear to be.
I don't know... Several possible approaches in my mind about it at the mo. The OSR and the games that fall under its banner are definitely on the "to do" list, but how I end up doing them isn't clear yet - and they're not so far up the priority list.
@@WillyMuffinUK That was not meant to be a harsh critique, happy to hear you have it in your to do list, though. Many of my groups are trying to break away from 5th edition for many reasons (younger players want something different from what they know well, while there might be nostalgia involved for the likes of me, but still it is very much a thing across the board).
@@SebastienlovesCookieswirlc I didn't take it as such :)
This TH-cam space of mine is very much in an evolving state, so all constructive comments like that are very much welcome!