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Great points! When I was first taught, my coach mentioned that surviving the 1st 5 shots of each point was key and suggested avoiding point ending errors on any of them. This is my drilling routine. 5 minutes dinking warmup 5 minutes of serve and return 20 minutes of drops/roll volleys 20 minutes of drives/blocking back power shots 10 minutes of volley fast hands (with both me and my partner standing about a foot inside of the NVZ line).
I use to think like that, that its a bangers game now especially with these gritty padels. Hear me out, i played a player that has such a powerful drive, he wins most shots with that, hardly any dinks too. But, guess what, i took a risk and told my partner we are changing tact. That we play ALL our returns to third shot drops / dinks and to their backhand AT the net. Even if its to the 'middle net' dinks and 'force them to make mistakes'. We won, as we took away their drives and play our game. Player's that depend too much driving then tobe 'impatient at dinking'. Play to your strengths and neutralizing their power game. Making less errors is your best target.
I completely agree. I run into bangers at the 3.5 to 4.0 level all the time. Playing them to their strengths creates the issues covered by this video. It is the job of the 3rd shot drop or other resets to force them into the kitchen. Keeping the ball low will create the need for a short game or possibly more errors by the banger netting in low shot count in those points. We play in a group "mainly" consisting of players at 3-4 level and we've all drilled more at forcing the short game and I would expect that we end up with 33% of all points ending up with at least a dink. Since the range is so large we still have unforced errors on serves, returns of serves, etc which likely account for another 33%. In match ups of the higher players in our groups, without a known banger, we'll have well over 50% of our points won or lost at the nvz.
It’s more of more and more tennis players are coming to PB. I play tennis while playing PB… I dink sure, but the moment the ball is a tad high, I’ll speed that plastic ball up. LOL
I don't understand...if you want to move up in levels you have to practice what people at higher levels do. Trying to play like people in your level will keep you at that level. Your argument only makes sense if you wanna stay 4.0 and below.
makes great sense. my personal experience playing 4.0 and below matches the stats presented. also numerous coaches have advocated for the 1st 4 shots as key to the rest of the point.
If you cannot do resets or drops you cannot force your opponents into drinking. So it becomes a self made predition.. If you cannot force dinks you cannot handle their drives. It's a tool box you need to develop more then just one shot. It is not just the wining shot instead of forcing the setup shot.
Definitely agree. I see sooooo many people warm up using dinks, but I've never seen them dink in game. I warm with serves and returns, since those two are in every point of the game.
I really appreciate your data-driven approach to the game. I learned a lot from your post. Despite that, I still think that it is really important to learn to play the 3rd shot drop and the short game, including dinks, well. I recently played at open court. I play at about the 3.5 level and one of the people I played with was probably 3.0 or lower. He was getting frustrated. I had watched him in previous games. He was a pure banger and was always going for winners, resulting in many shots hit into the net and out of bounds. He was a super-nice guy and open to suggestions. After the other team was up on us 5-0, I told him to try 3 things: 1. Dial his shots back by 20% and not try to hit as many "winners." 2. Move to the kitchen when I played a 3rd shot drop (and to try some 3rd shot drops himself if he wanted to) and 3. to play some dinks and other soft shots. He immediately incorporated all three suggestions into his game. We ended up winning the game 11-5. Crucially, if he tried, say, a 3rd shot drop and was unsuccessful, I turned to him and said, "That's great that you tried a 3rd shot drop. Keep doing it." At the end of the game, he told me that my suggestions were a revelation for him and that he really appreciated my input. Learning the 3rd shot drop and dinking teaches players a lot more than what to do if both sides make it to the kitchen. It teaches ball control, court awareness, patience and shot placement. Once I started playing the 3rd shot drop, it also helped me identify failure to ever play a third shot drop as a weakness, if my opponents were pure bangers. It also helped me realize that the 3rd shot drop can be a very effective offensive weapon in certain situations. For example, if I am serving to a person who stays back after returning serve, a well-placed 3rd shot drop in front of the person who did not move up often can end the point. I completely agree that learning to play the first 4 shots, especially the serve and return of serve, are the more important that the "short game." My only difference in perspective is that I would put a little more emphasis on dinking and the 3rd shot drop than you.
I like the suggestion and feedback you gave to the other player, glad it worked out well. in fact in my next video that's going to come out in the next few days, I'll touch a little bit on how you should choose which of the 3rd shot you should focus more on (drive or drop), my personal view is and has always been focussing on the one that you are most inconsistent with. For me, I don't have a tennis background and drive shot is mechanically much more complex than a drop shot, so I still spend most of my time working on getting my drives consistent (forehand and 2 handed backhand), the basic drop shots I consider them as extension of dinks, but from further away, the mechanics are easier for me.
Learning to handle pace with block volleys, counters, roll volleys etc. is a prerequisite before dinking. You have to earn someone dining with you. Dinking only happens when both sides prove that drives and speed-ups are bad ideas against them.
This is a great analysis. When I started pickleball, I immediately started practicing serves and returns, because I figured those two shots will happen in every point.
Great video and good points all around. Some people will just make assumptions with the game but here you actually supported your viewpoint with actual data. Well done.
Dinking is a fundamental element to resets, short hops, drops and strategy. I would utilize it as a stretch, then shift to transition work and kitchen play, then drives and serves. You have a very good point here for those at 4.0 and below level. Well done.
I love the thinking. I’ve been at Pickleball for about a year now. Playing at a 4.0 level, I can’t count how many times I’ve heard the term 3rd shot drop. As if the 3rd shot needs to be a drop and only a drop. A drop is just a possible shot in the bag. Drives, lobs may also be options depending on the opponent and situation. But the idea of the drop is to get to a kitchen game. And my experience is just like your stats, kitchen games are rare at this level. I’ve found much more success in practicing top spin drives, serves and knowing when to speed up. That’s not to say dinking isn’t important. Certainly practice and get better at it. But work on drives, serves, speed ups and defending more frequently. Great video. Great analysis. And great logic.
Great insight! I’m doing exactly as you describe and have been getting very frustrated why I keep losing to bangers. Now I have an idea and will change my drilling program. It’s hard to argue with stats thank you!
Hey thanks for tuning in, not sure how you found this video, but I’m so happy that you found this helpful! Feel free to check out the other content on my channel, too!
I think this makes a lot of sense at the 3-3.5 level (or 4.0 max). However if your goals are to get better the ONLY way is to learn how to drop the ball consistently. Once you do that then dinking rallies inevitably follow. I've seen this time and again with better players that I play against. But I also agree that people spend way too much time dinking in practice instead of working on serves, serve returns and volleys.
Yeah, that’s well said. I think learning pickleball is like learning anything, there is a natural progression to it, dinking is not something that happens often until you start getting towards 4.3 or above. Learning things that’s most useful for where people are makes sense to me.
First of all, from what little I saw of the play here it wasn't close to 4.0. Some of the pop ups should have been dinks so just because there weren't any doesn't mean there shouldn't have been any. If you are good at the drop shots but aren't getting into dinking battles then you probably have the advantage since your opponent is trying to attack less attackable balls. I do agree with the premise in that practicing dink shots 75% of the time is a poor use of time. Probably better off cutting off a good percentage of dinking and use it to practice lob shots. I hate lob shots but practicing them gives you skill at it just like any other shot and the difference between practicing the lob and not is just as significant as not practicing dinks.
Reminds me of golf - people whacking their drivers most of the time but the scoring comes from the short game. You nailed it. I'm a beginner and the classes I take they are teaching us backwards from PRO to Beginner vs from Beginner to PRO.
Your point about drilling the first five shots is totally valid, as your data shows they are the highest probability shots for the level you're currently playing at. That said, from 4.5~5.0+ levels you can generally assume that players will be able to make it to the kitchen and attack you from there. I only practice dinking interspersed with speedups/blocks/resets to ensure drilling sessions match the intensity of real games. Dinking also needs to be aggressive, moving the opponents around, rather than passive dead dinks that don't do anything for your offense. The best case scenario is to drill with someone who's at/near the 5.0 level who can show you how to dink at an advanced level.
This is the funniest pickleball video I’ve ever seen (I mean this in a good way) - excellent work bro - love you’re breakdown and the use of all the statistics 📈 we need more of this 🙏
Agreed, I think it’s healthy to see people from other sports coming to pickleball to evolve the game, it will make it more fun and challenging, the kitchen game will always be there for doubles, but getting to the kitchen will get harder and harder.
You have a valid point. Unless a player can confidently do a third or fifth shot drop in a game, there will typically be very little, or no dinks involve in that game at all.
I am again amazed how insightful you are at your level of play and the relative short time you've been playing. I agree with most all of your points in this video. I can't wait till you are a 5.0 level or higher. You will be teaching all of us so many more great ideas. Much future success to you on your journey. Thank you.
Thank you so much this means a lot, really appreciate the kind words and feedback. I enjoy learning the game and think will always be a student of the game, I definitely would like to become a high level player one day!
Agree, game has evolved now like it or not. Dinking is necessary but just a small part of it for oldies. Player like me has evolved to play faster mostly drive, power drive and placing. U can’t dink forever any slight higher angle, you will get pushed.
The best drill we do every session is what we call the “deep-deep drill”. We put down some yellow painters tape or cones a few feet inside the baseline. The process is this. Server serves. Returner has to hit the return deep past the target, moves in and then hit their 1st volley deep. That’s it. If the returner get both shots deep the returner scores a pt. If not the server scores. The goal is for the returner to work on depth and take control of the net, keeping the server or servers team pinned back
Totally agree. High level players dink so much for 2 reasons - they fear counters so speedups are chosen wisely (as you mention) and secondly, they are so good at 3rd/5th shot drops and hitting unattackable balls that they can get to the kitchen regularly. At the 3.0-4.0 level, players just can't hit good enough drops regularly. Most drops even at my 4.0-4.5 level group are able to be roll-volley countered. It's very very rare a 3rd is so good that you can't roll it, or step back and topspin flick it deep to their feet and keep them back. Most people can't hit 4-5 of these in a row in order to get to the kitchen. Also, the pros are so athletic that they only need 1-2 drops and they are at the kitchen. Most 4.0s aren't anywhere near as athletic as a Quang Duong, so they are hitting 3, 4, 5 drops in a row, all needed to be perfect to get to the kitchen. That's why the most important shots to practice are 4th shot flick/rolls, step back flick/rolls, and countering speedups. Spend most of your time on these and you'll get way more results.
You have a valid point especially for new players with no or little racquet sports background. If you don't have a decent serve, serve return and drive shot then you are probably a 3.0 or less player. If you have very good serves, service return and drives you can become a strong 3.5 as you said. To advance from there, the dink, the 3rd shot drop and the reset...all finesse shots need to be learned at the same time which take a lot of practice and patience....even for an average tennis player. I saw in another YT video that 4.0 and higher players, hit a shot from the transition zone the most followed by dinks and few players actually practice hitting from the transition zone because we are all actively trying to stay out of the transition zone. Those transition zone shots include 3rd shot drops, some dinks, resets, defensive blocks, drives, swing volleys etc...but they account for the most shots in a rally that goes beyond 4 or 5 shots.
I like your videos, totally data driven. I thought the dinking rally might be around 30% of the game at our level but you proved me I was way too optimistic. Let's shift our drill focus to 1st 4 shots, and maybe consider adding reset as the 5th to initiate the dink in the future.
Great analysis! One must have the ability to rein in bangers to progress to dinking game at high level. You must be able to demonstrate you can not only handle their power, but also put them on defense by controlling the pace of the game! Strategy wins most points moving the opposition around the court like in a chess game! Thanks!
thank you, each game I analyze, take me at round 1.5 - 2 hours, depending on the length of the game and the stats I'm trying to record, it's not hard but just takes a lot of time, I like your suggestion and will add your suggestion to my list of ideas/suggestions for contents on this channel. Thank you
Great video and insight. Those stats definitely match the typical rec play that I encounter. I’ll definitely make it a point to drill those first 5 shots.
I watch 100's of PB videos this is the most impactful in terms of training I have ever seen. If you asked me to guess how many turn in to dinks off the top of my head I would have guessed something like at least 30%.
This video is basically the same as tennis. At 3.0-4.0 you want to master the ground strokes and placement with good forehands and backhands. Drops, resets and dinking are higher level for pickle and so is net play in tennis. You need to build your foundation before you move up to higher level tactics. At higher level tennis, footwork, consistency, technique and strategy is important. So is with pickleball. I will tell you to play consistent, don’t try to win the ball with one stroke, be patient, have good defense and overall use good techniques.
Good Stuff. In class, we generally start dinking just to get warm and move a bit, then work on everything else. IMO, it's much easier to teach a new student how to drive the ball than it is to drop it. We work on controlling the drives first and drop shots come much later.
I actually had this very same revelation on my own (I started playing 6 months ago) and I noticed everyone always only wants to warm up or practice their dinks most. Yet no amount of practicing your dinks is going to help you get to the line. So I've transitioned into largely focusing on drops and approaching the line.
Hi, I'm in the process of analyzing my own 4.0 Gold medal match from this past weekend using the same criteria in your Excel sheet. I am curious as to what criteria you use to define a dink vs a drop? From the baseline I know it would be a drop but at what point in the court is it close enough to consider a dink? Also, how do you categorize shots that are taken out of the air that could otherwise be considered a dink by shorter players or the player just deciding to not let it drop? edit: Additional question - if a player needs to back off the kitchen line due to a popup, do you classify that as "player losing point at the kitchen?"
Took some liberties with the stats criteria for now but with my best judgement here are the stats. For reference, this was a mixed doubles 4.0 14-34yrs Gold medal match. Loss 9-11. Total shots: 273. Total rallies: 38. Average shots per rally: 7.18. Rallies ending in 5 shots or less: 17. Rallies with dinks: 11. Dink rallies with 2 dinks or less: 2. 18/38 rallies ended with the losing team having at least 1 player at the kitchen. Also want to mention that my partner had a leg cramp during this match that we took a "medical timeout" for. It severely debilitated her movement to move up to the kitchen/get any ball in general, and as a result I had to play more aggressively to cover the court. In the path to the finals there were some games that required us to dink more and others less, so while some people do spend too much time dinking as a warm up/drill I do think it pays off to have some familiarity with all aspects of the game. I will try to analyze one of the games with more dinks - one of the teams was particularly good with their third shot drops and targeted my partner quite hard at the net.
I'll spare you the details, but the numbers came out quite similar except the dink rallies were shorter (2 dinks or less were 37.5% vs the other game's 18.18%) and teams managed to get to the net more often (55% vs 47.37% in the medal match). I suspect these numbers are in part due to teams not being consistent enough to pull off quality dinks (ie. popping up the ball too fast) or being too impatient to attack (in some cases players tried attacking balls that were not suitable). Granted, the strategy in these games involved targeting from both teams, so it's mostly the reflection of two players in the dinking rallies. ~30% of rallies in these two games involved some kind of dinking, so I do think it is worth investing some time into, but only to the point where engaging in a dink rally isn't an automatic loss. How one would measure that, I'm not sure.
Thanks for reaching out, great questions! For me personally I consider anything within one step (two feet away) from kitchen line to be a dink, anything further than that consider as a drop! Similarly for the definition of Kitchen, I use the same rule for my analysis anything within 2 feet from the kitchen line is kitchen.
Thanks for sharing! Yes you are on point, I have seen some viewers commenting on this video completely misunderstanding my point, I’m not advising people to not put any time into learning dinking at all, but don’t put too much time into it until you get to the 4.0 level. Of course if someone has unlimited time to spare, they can do whatever they want with that luxury! By the time you become very consistent with the first 4-5 shots (which includes a drop shot), you should already have the neccesary skills to sustain a short dink rally at the kitchen with no problem (I.e drop is just a harder long dink). Also after you get to the kitchen, it doesn’t mean that dink is the automatic option, maybe try speeding up on the other teams and see if they can handle it, if not then just keep doing it to them until they earn the dink rally with you.
I’m a 4.0, and can attest this is generally true for 4.0 and below. I will say that when I play higher level people they are so good at keeping the ball unattackable and low, and yes, like you said, whoever speeds up the ball especially during a high level men’s doubles team, if they don’t win the point off the first speed up they usually lose. That’s a stat I’d like to know…. Of speed ups, in general, how many times does the one who speeds up win/lose the fire fight? Great vid, man, thanks for taking the time to dig into the point break down.
I've seen the stat but don't remember it precisely, I think the speed up team had a 12% disadvantage of winning the point. The team returning the speedup has a high percentage of winning the point but not necessarily on the next shot. The speed up is usually hit with a slight trajectory up, the return with a slight trajectory down (return team has the advantage) and typically, as the rally continues the advantage for the returning team gets better and the disadvantage of the speed up team gets worse.
Great perspectives on how one should focus their training time. I did think it was weird my intro class didnt focus more on the serve, as how do you play a consistent game without having a consistent serve? The more realistic your practice is as compared to your average game, the better spent your time is!
This is great information. I have been practicing incorrectly since I started 2 months ago. I know in tennis, 70 percent of points end in the first 4 shots.
Excellent presentation. I believe that people in general should look at stats especially in sports so that they can dedicate their time practicing what is really worth practicing.
I do not know how the return of serve is under rated being several coaches think that it is the most important shot in pickleball. Missing that shot will lose you the game.
This has been my observation as well. Fast hard games is most of what the 3.5 and 4.0 like. What I think is funny to do to them is take the heat out of the ball, deadening it with a no power return and they will often hit it into the net.
The thing is, most people want to move past their current level, so the real question is what is the analysis at the 5.0 level? It would seem that most points ending in the first 5 shots of a 4.0 level is the limiting factor keeping these people at 4.0. Is your advice more specific to how to win at 4.0 and below, but it would change for levels above that? I know ALW does 800 dinks everyday before she moves on to other things.
Yeah up to 4.0, I recommend players focus on getting consistent at the first 4-5 shots. Then shift focus towards kitchen game and dinks at 4.5+. It’s the order of progression.
@@superdupr.pickleball that makes a lot more sense then. Sub 4.5+, it's well-placed deep serves and returns, and more controlled 3rds that seem like a good focus.
I spend a few minutes dinking to warm up, then we take turns dropping as we back up then working on getting back to kitchen again and then partner backs up. etc. I think you may find out that getting to 4.0 this will work but then getting to 5.0 you will back to drops and dinking ironically. Driving all the time works against people who have struggle with it - sort of like lobbing to often.
@superdupr.pickleball yeah, I often beat tennis minded players by pulling them to the net and putting back and side spin on the ball... a lot of the top spin drives then go wide and into the net.
For sure, 3rd shot could be drop or drive. I do teams including even pros gravitating towards driving the 3rd more often now. 5th like you said is usually a drop.
I do not quite agree with that for one simple reason. The object, at least for me, is not just to win a game but also to get better. And it is clear that one cannot get better without learning to dink and improving your transition game. Hence, even if your stats are correct, which I am sure they are, we are drawing the wrong lesson if you want to get better.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I think there’s always right time for doing the right thing. There’s natural progression to learning anything in life, dink is an advanced skill in this game, but if you spend most of your time learning something that you may not get much chance to apply in real games (4.0 and below) and not being able to apply it in games, I question of the value of the drills. and being able to apply the skills you drill into real game is the real test of whether you are improving or not as a player, regardless of the outcome of the game. It’s a matter of learning things in an order that’s going to progress your game the fastest. practice the things that’s most appropriate for your level and the things that happen most often in your games. Once you grow out of that level, then learn the more advanced skills to further improve yourself to the next level.
@@superdupr.pickleballI kinda agree with most of it. It’s not either or. At some point, you have to apply in the games what you learned in practice even if it is initially uncomfortable and may result in loss of games. In the long run, in my view you will be a better player if you keep practicing all parts of the game, developing your skills, and gradually applying them in a game. I do not believe learning to properly dink is a waste of time.
i agree hard drives, smash volleys are the main shots from beginner's and mid level players. Learn all shots including dinking strategy. you are correct pointing out why many do not even factor dinking or third shot drops, most think that driving hard is more satisfying to test opponents to achieve 4.0 and above you need to know what shots are for defending and what shots can be an attack. Both sides of equal level ranking will find safe ground to neutralize from volley attacks hence dinking is then played. Not knowing this difference leaves players stuck in the 3.5 to 4.0 levels.
4.0 and below dont dink before a game to practice for in-game dinking. It's to get a feel of the ball on your paddle and warm up your softer touch shots. It'd be dumb to spend all that time just driving the ball back and forth like youre playing tennis
You are very right 👍🏽 3.8-4.0+ players definitely try to see immediately how well you handle speed ups & hard drives. If your anticipation (right position, leave out balls), & hand battle skills are good then they try dinking
Those are good points, but I play with careful intent improve and prepare myself to play with better players. Even though I can bang and dominate weaker players, I'm not learning a lot by doing that. The typical mistake at the 3.5 level is failure to get to the kitchen, because those players are trying to approach by starting a shootout from a weak position in the transition zone. Better to drop that third or fifth shot, get to the kitchen, and look for a speedup when the chances are better than equal. You won't get to be consistent at approaching drop shots unless you regularly use them. Rather than focusing on winning pointless games, I try to practice shots I'm weak at.
Dinking is a setup for a better speed up the reason you are losing because you dont have a tennis background meaning you dont have background of how to volley the ball.
The slow drilling dink rallies are fun at rec games, but it is very hard to apply your dink skill at competition level. At the competition, the ball comes to you faster, if you are not used to faster ball, you will not have time to reset or dink, the ball will pop up, and most of time, if the ball pop just above the net, your opponent will drive or punch. Then, we are calling them bangers, the opponent should dink and return the ball nicely to you, right? To break 3.5 - 4.0 level faster, we need to practice reset and fast hand skills. But, if you are playing just rec fun games with friends, no deep dink, slow return, does not matter.
Good players have variety of tools to utilize. Sometimes opponents are bangers, you punish them good blocks to their feet. Sometimes, your opponents are great with angle top spin vollley, you need to know how to reset dinks back to the kitchen. Pro level plays are mostly dinks because they are so good at counters. Unless you are good with counters, your opponents can drive at you all day and leading to matchs tht are simply drive, bang, and smash. As you progress to 4.0+, dinks will become more important skill to have.
The challenge is being good enough to force the other team to dink, if you can and they don't concede they are going to hit a poor speedup that you can either watch fly out or attack. I don't have a Tennis background as well so I'm not going to be able to out hit most people with a tennis background. Fast hands, good drops and dinks, and good timed speedups are enough to beat anybody 4.0 and below. Practicing Deep serves and Deep returns are a total difference maker as well, but any time I focus too much on deep returns I end up just giving points away. A high level Banger though you just have to funnel them down the middle and really have to be on your drop game
More reps on serve and return, you will just get better and better at deep return. You will give up points form time to time, but don’t let that discourage you.
It’s definitely on my long list of ideas that I wanna make video out of, i really struggle with time right now to implement a lot of them, but I’m sure it will come at some point in the future!
Wouldn't aggressive drop get you to the kitchen faster and out of the first five shot fear? The game may still not involve dinking, but I think the game still can be won at the kitchen. I feel counters and speed-ups at the net are more important because if you don't have these shots down cold, why even dink if the opponent knows you cannot punish them. Do you prefer to practice/drill a drive for a third shot or a drop?
You are right, and I agree with what you are sayings. For me, these days I spend 70/30 between drive and drop. Because I spent a lot of time in the past practicing dinks and drops, which are both very similar shots mechanically, so my drop is more consistent my drive. Plus I don’t have tennis background so my drive needs a lot more work than my drop.
Hey thanks for tuning in, I tried to release a full long form video every 10-14 days, with a full time job and family of 2 kids, it’s tough keeping up. But you should be to see that video coming out within the next two weeks.
Great analysis, can’t agree more, no matter what level of the player, if they can’t make the first 4 shots consistently then they will loss the point surely, a weak serve, a short return, a bad third shot drop or drive, attackable forth shot, then they could loss the game before the fifth shot or six shot becomes a dink game. Even the pro level players, they lose point when they make mistakes on the first four shots! Also if you can’t make the first 4 shots consistently then you will not able to move up to a higher level anyway, keep drilling the first 4 shots which will help you get to the next level quicker than others. Also keep some dink drills going at the same time and resets too, specially speed up and counter for a fast hand practice!
Coming from tennis, I just want to CRUSH the ball but my short game (dinks and quick exchanges) for pickleball needs work. So this video is right on. I am working on my short game to be better rounded for pickleball. However, my serves, returns, and drives…MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 😂 I WILL CRUSH YOU….😂😂😂😂
This has exactly been my experience and what I’ve realized on my own lately. I think you’re spot on. I’m finally working more on counters, being compact and being ready
@@superdupr.pickleball Whether I agree with everything said, getting a good look at some ones drills for the first few shots is a great idea. I have never really worked on the 4th shot much as I generally expect to be at the kitchen in most cases. I believe a serve, return of serve, 3rd shot drop or drive combination is a great drill. I am planning to watch your return of serve video.
I think a variety of skills are needed and Resets are really important. I’ve played a lot of matches in this skill level and the best players (during their serve) can third shot drop, forcing the other team to dink, or do a very poor speed up that is hit upward. This gives the serving team the opporunity to hit it back downward. I think at 3.5 to 4.0 right now, you find a lot of teams that can defend really well when being served to, but cannot play as well when serving…a big part of that is their lack of ability to hit a third shot drop or reset, so they end up struggling to get forward.
I agree with you, mastering the first four shots and how to defend against speed ups and drives is what’s going to force the other team to play soft game with you.
It's my pet peeve that beginners lessons often spend too much time on dinking. Instructors usually start their lessons with it. And beginners have no idea why or when to dink in a game. You rarely see dinking until 3.5 in rec play. It's a higher level skill. So for newbies the time is better spent learning how to do ground strokes, blocks, and volleys rather than dinking.
I played squash recreationally in college, there are certain transferable skills on my humble opinion, one time I played against a 6.0 pro in doubles, he came from a very competitive squash background (us national champion during his teenage years), his speed ups and drives were so crazy, a lot of wrist movement, so fast and close to the net.
Since watching your video, I have been watching 4.0 player games on TH-cam and counting the balls. It's also the same for my group ( 3.0 to 3.5 ) the point is over in about 5 rounds.
Thanks for tuning in. I watch all these games, count and track each shot, after each rally I pause the video, manually write them down in a table, often I need to replay the rallies as there’s many stats I try to record. So when I mentioned in the video that I spend many hours analyzing the game, I’m not exaggerating, it’s pretty sad..
Great level appropriate advice. Too many try to follow advice how to play at the "pro" level when they're so far from competing at that level. 80-20 rule, 80% first-4 shoots, 20% dink, Got it, thanks.
The 2nd example, the "2023 US Open 4.0 mixed doubles 65+ Gold Medal Match" looks like 3.0 level to me. The rating thing in pickleball has been so confusing. Perhaps using DUPR could be more consistent.
Yeah, if you are 4.0 and below, the rally won't last long. but if you want to move further ahead, it is almost automatically that you have to know how to dink and drive.
It seems to me that the third shot drop is used when both opponents are at the NVZ and a drive is not really possible. You certainly don't want to use it to BRING them up to the line. Right?
Dude… Such a great perspective and SO right. Loved this video, best pickle ball video of the year. I play at a 3.8 level and really agree especially with the first four or five shots. Keep it up man!!
Seriously the best video...and I've watched thousands - not exaggerating. I've played for 2 years and have worked really hard to have a great dinking game - only to lose to newer players that come from tennis. I also have reviewed statistics from my tournament games at 3.5 level - and there is basically 0 dinking. Practicing getting to the line is IMO the very most important skill. And of course being able to defend the aggressive fast hard hits. Also important to know that play (at least at 3.5 and under) is super chaotic - meaning very difficult to predict the next shot of your opponent. I have spent enough time to learn what the "best ie highest percentage" shot would be in various situations, and at 3.5 and under most players never take those shots. So you have to be prepared for anything and everything all the time. LOVE the stats you shared thanks!!
Thank you!!! I’m glad our experiences have been similar, yes below 3.5 it’s very chaotic like you mentioned, getting ready for any ball is a good skill to have, really unpredictable.
Enjoyed the content and breakdown of match statistics. Lower-level games are as described. Gosh, dinking and drop shots are hard. And who wants to practice slow-moving, boring things? What would you rather watch: a tortoise running or a cheetah running? So they bang away, hit out balls, etc., and they laugh and have fun (usually). But if someone wants to move up the skill ladder, that game will get beaten by better players who can handle the first five shots and conquer the net. I love dink battles. They are hard to achieve, as the stats show here in this video. The cat-and-mouse game at the kitchen between all four players ratchets up the tension... Who is going to make the first mistake? The lower-level practice sessions focusing on the first five shots are an excellent game-winning plan. In rec play against my banger friends, I will either practice drops/dinks/resets to the backhand side whenever possible for the entire game (and I let my partner know ahead of time), then next gameplay the strong game and work on counter-attacks, drives, etc. Viewing them as practice opportunities to improve is more enjoyable than having to win every rec game. IMO, nothing beats a solid dink battle game where nearly every point is played beyond the first 4-5 shots.
I watch men’s doubles pro games the most because I love dink rallies and kitchen game the most, it’s what makes pickleball pickleball, like you said people should develop the prerequisite to allow them to play real pickleball!
Very informative for new players like me. Your videos should be watched first before anything else about pickleball. I also like how you did the statistics of the game. Continue creating informative stuff like this.
I came to the same conclusion a long time ago. Dinks are for warming up, then never used unless the other team doesn't come to the kitchen. (Please kill the background music. Thanks.)
Interesting concept. Wish you had shown more of the actual play. Guessing as the very first point showed, when the woman hit an easy pop up and it got put away quickly, at the 4.0 level, that's how points are usually scored. Dinking is a better choice than hitting a weak set-up shot, which 85% or more of people I play against and with are guilty of. Dinking is a way of neutralizing the stronger, younger player. Playing a power game against them does not work.
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Video on how to master RETURN of Serves:
th-cam.com/video/VbBq8ScFUk0/w-d-xo.html
Video on how to master FOREHAND DRIVE:
th-cam.com/video/HEbRlu4XwKY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Eh_M5QPQYfaAjFrZ
Great points! When I was first taught, my coach mentioned that surviving the 1st 5 shots of each point was key and suggested avoiding point ending errors on any of them.
This is my drilling routine.
5 minutes dinking warmup
5 minutes of serve and return
20 minutes of drops/roll volleys
20 minutes of drives/blocking back power shots
10 minutes of volley fast hands (with both me and my partner standing about a foot inside of the NVZ line).
Great advice from your coach, also great routine and thanks for sharing! Thx for tuning in!
I use to think like that, that its a bangers game now especially with these gritty padels. Hear me out, i played a player that has such a powerful drive, he wins most shots with that, hardly any dinks too. But, guess what, i took a risk and told my partner we are changing tact. That we play ALL our returns to third shot drops / dinks and to their backhand AT the net. Even if its to the 'middle net' dinks and 'force them to make mistakes'. We won, as we took away their drives and play our game. Player's that depend too much driving then tobe 'impatient at dinking'. Play to your strengths and neutralizing their power game. Making less errors is your best target.
Finding ways to survive the first 4 shots will win you a lot of games!
I completely agree. I run into bangers at the 3.5 to 4.0 level all the time. Playing them to their strengths creates the issues covered by this video. It is the job of the 3rd shot drop or other resets to force them into the kitchen. Keeping the ball low will create the need for a short game or possibly more errors by the banger netting in low shot count in those points. We play in a group "mainly" consisting of players at 3-4 level and we've all drilled more at forcing the short game and I would expect that we end up with 33% of all points ending up with at least a dink. Since the range is so large we still have unforced errors on serves, returns of serves, etc which likely account for another 33%. In match ups of the higher players in our groups, without a known banger, we'll have well over 50% of our points won or lost at the nvz.
Paddles, not padels. THIS AIN’T PADEL, SON!
It’s more of more and more tennis players are coming to PB. I play tennis while playing PB… I dink sure, but the moment the ball is a tad high, I’ll speed that plastic ball up. LOL
I don't understand...if you want to move up in levels you have to practice what people at higher levels do. Trying to play like people in your level will keep you at that level. Your argument only makes sense if you wanna stay 4.0 and below.
makes great sense. my personal experience playing 4.0 and below matches the stats presented. also numerous coaches have advocated for the 1st 4 shots as key to the rest of the point.
Thank you for tuning in and sharing your experience!
If you cannot do resets or drops you cannot force your opponents into drinking. So it becomes a self made predition.. If you cannot force dinks you cannot handle their drives.
It's a tool box you need to develop more then just one shot. It is not just the wining shot instead of forcing the setup shot.
Well said!
Definitely agree. I see sooooo many people warm up using dinks, but I've never seen them dink in game. I warm with serves and returns, since those two are in every point of the game.
That’s a great warm up you have, I’m glad you found this video resonating with your personal experience, thanks for tuning in!
Thisss! I’m warming up with bangers and I’m like in my head “both of us know well you are not going dink”
Yes!!! I agree. I always warm up with transition zone, resets and serves/return
Agree
Dinks are easy for 4 people to do as a warmup which is why I think most of us do that. Talking rec play here.
I really appreciate your data-driven approach to the game. I learned a lot from your post.
Despite that, I still think that it is really important to learn to play the 3rd shot drop and the short game, including dinks, well. I recently played at open court. I play at about the 3.5 level and one of the people I played with was probably 3.0 or lower. He was getting frustrated. I had watched him in previous games. He was a pure banger and was always going for winners, resulting in many shots hit into the net and out of bounds. He was a super-nice guy and open to suggestions. After the other team was up on us 5-0, I told him to try 3 things: 1. Dial his shots back by 20% and not try to hit as many "winners." 2. Move to the kitchen when I played a 3rd shot drop (and to try some 3rd shot drops himself if he wanted to) and 3. to play some dinks and other soft shots. He immediately incorporated all three suggestions into his game. We ended up winning the game 11-5. Crucially, if he tried, say, a 3rd shot drop and was unsuccessful, I turned to him and said, "That's great that you tried a 3rd shot drop. Keep doing it." At the end of the game, he told me that my suggestions were a revelation for him and that he really appreciated my input.
Learning the 3rd shot drop and dinking teaches players a lot more than what to do if both sides make it to the kitchen. It teaches ball control, court awareness, patience and shot placement. Once I started playing the 3rd shot drop, it also helped me identify failure to ever play a third shot drop as a weakness, if my opponents were pure bangers. It also helped me realize that the 3rd shot drop can be a very effective offensive weapon in certain situations. For example, if I am serving to a person who stays back after returning serve, a well-placed 3rd shot drop in front of the person who did not move up often can end the point.
I completely agree that learning to play the first 4 shots, especially the serve and return of serve, are the more important that the "short game." My only difference in perspective is that I would put a little more emphasis on dinking and the 3rd shot drop than you.
I like the suggestion and feedback you gave to the other player, glad it worked out well. in fact in my next video that's going to come out in the next few days, I'll touch a little bit on how you should choose which of the 3rd shot you should focus more on (drive or drop), my personal view is and has always been focussing on the one that you are most inconsistent with. For me, I don't have a tennis background and drive shot is mechanically much more complex than a drop shot, so I still spend most of my time working on getting my drives consistent (forehand and 2 handed backhand), the basic drop shots I consider them as extension of dinks, but from further away, the mechanics are easier for me.
Thanks for responding. I am now a subscriber to your channel!
Thank you!
Most practical PB video I've seen! Thanks.
Thank you for your feedback!
Learning to handle pace with block volleys, counters, roll volleys etc. is a prerequisite before dinking. You have to earn someone dining with you. Dinking only happens when both sides prove that drives and speed-ups are bad ideas against them.
Can’t agree more, thank you
Can’t agree more!
This is a great analysis.
When I started pickleball, I immediately started practicing serves and returns, because I figured those two shots will happen in every point.
Thanks for tuning in! That’s a very smart strategy!
Great video and good points all around. Some people will just make assumptions with the game but here you actually supported your viewpoint with actual data. Well done.
Thank you for the feedback, much appreciate it!
I agree! When I teach newbies and beginners, I focus on serve, ROS, and volleys.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Dinking is a fundamental element to resets, short hops, drops and strategy. I would utilize it as a stretch, then shift to transition work and kitchen play, then drives and serves. You have a very good point here for those at 4.0 and below level. Well done.
Thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts!
I love the thinking. I’ve been at Pickleball for about a year now. Playing at a 4.0 level, I can’t count how many times I’ve heard the term 3rd shot drop. As if the 3rd shot needs to be a drop and only a drop.
A drop is just a possible shot in the bag. Drives, lobs may also be options depending on the opponent and situation. But the idea of the drop is to get to a kitchen game. And my experience is just like your stats, kitchen games are rare at this level.
I’ve found much more success in practicing top spin drives, serves and knowing when to speed up.
That’s not to say dinking isn’t important. Certainly practice and get better at it. But work on drives, serves, speed ups and defending more frequently.
Great video. Great analysis. And great logic.
Thank you for tuning in and supporting this channel, and thank you for taking your time to give feedback and share your thoughts!
Great insight! I’m doing exactly as you describe and have been getting very frustrated why I keep losing to bangers. Now I have an idea and will change my drilling program. It’s hard to argue with stats thank you!
Hey thanks for tuning in, not sure how you found this video, but I’m so happy that you found this helpful! Feel free to check out the other content on my channel, too!
I think this makes a lot of sense at the 3-3.5 level (or 4.0 max). However if your goals are to get better the ONLY way is to learn how to drop the ball consistently. Once you do that then dinking rallies inevitably follow. I've seen this time and again with better players that I play against. But I also agree that people spend way too much time dinking in practice instead of working on serves, serve returns and volleys.
Yeah, that’s well said. I think learning pickleball is like learning anything, there is a natural progression to it, dinking is not something that happens often until you start getting towards 4.3 or above. Learning things that’s most useful for where people are makes sense to me.
First of all, from what little I saw of the play here it wasn't close to 4.0. Some of the pop ups should have been dinks so just because there weren't any doesn't mean there shouldn't have been any. If you are good at the drop shots but aren't getting into dinking battles then you probably have the advantage since your opponent is trying to attack less attackable balls. I do agree with the premise in that practicing dink shots 75% of the time is a poor use of time. Probably better off cutting off a good percentage of dinking and use it to practice lob shots. I hate lob shots but practicing them gives you skill at it just like any other shot and the difference between practicing the lob and not is just as significant as not practicing dinks.
Reminds me of golf - people whacking their drivers most of the time but the scoring comes from the short game. You nailed it. I'm a beginner and the classes I take they are teaching us backwards from PRO to Beginner vs from Beginner to PRO.
Thank you for watching and sharing your experience here!
You are a brilliant young man, and you are correct. It is frustrating to realize that this is the reality. Thank you for sharing your videos.
Thank you for your kind feedback and tuning in! It means a lot to me that others like yourself feel the same way as me!
Your point about drilling the first five shots is totally valid, as your data shows they are the highest probability shots for the level you're currently playing at. That said, from 4.5~5.0+ levels you can generally assume that players will be able to make it to the kitchen and attack you from there. I only practice dinking interspersed with speedups/blocks/resets to ensure drilling sessions match the intensity of real games. Dinking also needs to be aggressive, moving the opponents around, rather than passive dead dinks that don't do anything for your offense. The best case scenario is to drill with someone who's at/near the 5.0 level who can show you how to dink at an advanced level.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here, yes I also think that from 4.5+ that when you really start to see more dinking rallies.
This is the funniest pickleball video I’ve ever seen (I mean this in a good way) - excellent work bro - love you’re breakdown and the use of all the statistics 📈 we need more of this 🙏
Thank you bro for tuning it, really appreciate your feedback and support!
Your.
Agreed. Great analysis. Clearly, tennis players coming into the game at these levels are changing the game.
Agreed, I think it’s healthy to see people from other sports coming to pickleball to evolve the game, it will make it more fun and challenging, the kitchen game will always be there for doubles, but getting to the kitchen will get harder and harder.
Yes just like in tennis. Very few people get to the net. With the equipment upgrades. It's all about serving driving the ball and ending points.
You have a valid point. Unless a player can confidently do a third or fifth shot drop in a game, there will typically be very little, or no dinks involve in that game at all.
Thank you for watching and spending time with to share your thoughts here!
I am again amazed how insightful you are at your level of play and the relative short time you've been playing. I agree with most all of your points in this video.
I can't wait till you are a 5.0 level or higher. You will be teaching all of us so many more great ideas. Much future success to you on your journey. Thank you.
Thank you so much this means a lot, really appreciate the kind words and feedback. I enjoy learning the game and think will always be a student of the game, I definitely would like to become a high level player one day!
@@superdupr.pickleballI respect the amount of analysis you've done to customize your training!
Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Love Love this, the strategy in most racket sport is get the point over quick as possible. Thanks
Thank you for your time and feedback!
Agree, game has evolved now like it or not. Dinking is necessary but just a small part of it for oldies. Player like me has evolved to play faster mostly drive, power drive and placing. U can’t dink forever any slight higher angle, you will get pushed.
Thx for sharing your experience!
The best drill we do every session is what we call the “deep-deep drill”. We put down some yellow painters tape or cones a few feet inside the baseline. The process is this. Server serves. Returner has to hit the return deep past the target, moves in and then hit their 1st volley deep. That’s it. If the returner get both shots deep the returner scores a pt. If not the server scores. The goal is for the returner to work on depth and take control of the net, keeping the server or servers team pinned back
thank you for sharing, yes my drill partner and I do something very similar to 'deep-deep drill', it's been helping our game a lot.
Totally agree. High level players dink so much for 2 reasons - they fear counters so speedups are chosen wisely (as you mention) and secondly, they are so good at 3rd/5th shot drops and hitting unattackable balls that they can get to the kitchen regularly. At the 3.0-4.0 level, players just can't hit good enough drops regularly. Most drops even at my 4.0-4.5 level group are able to be roll-volley countered. It's very very rare a 3rd is so good that you can't roll it, or step back and topspin flick it deep to their feet and keep them back. Most people can't hit 4-5 of these in a row in order to get to the kitchen. Also, the pros are so athletic that they only need 1-2 drops and they are at the kitchen. Most 4.0s aren't anywhere near as athletic as a Quang Duong, so they are hitting 3, 4, 5 drops in a row, all needed to be perfect to get to the kitchen.
That's why the most important shots to practice are 4th shot flick/rolls, step back flick/rolls, and countering speedups. Spend most of your time on these and you'll get way more results.
Thank you for sharing your experience and thoughts, appreciate it!
The step back speed up is one of my favorite shots, especially straight down the line
You have a valid point especially for new players with no or little racquet sports background. If you don't have a decent serve, serve return and drive shot then you are probably a 3.0 or less player. If you have very good serves, service return and drives you can become a strong 3.5 as you said. To advance from there, the dink, the 3rd shot drop and the reset...all finesse shots need to be learned at the same time which take a lot of practice and patience....even for an average tennis player. I saw in another YT video that 4.0 and higher players, hit a shot from the transition zone the most followed by dinks and few players actually practice hitting from the transition zone because we are all actively trying to stay out of the transition zone. Those transition zone shots include 3rd shot drops, some dinks, resets, defensive blocks, drives, swing volleys etc...but they account for the most shots in a rally that goes beyond 4 or 5 shots.
Yes transition shots are very important! Thanks for tuning in!
Love your videos. It was great meeting you at Austin Pickle Ranch the other day.
Thank you Sam, it was very nice meeting you the other day! Thanks for your support!
I like your videos, totally data driven. I thought the dinking rally might be around 30% of the game at our level but you proved me I was way too optimistic. Let's shift our drill focus to 1st 4 shots, and maybe consider adding reset as the 5th to initiate the dink in the future.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your support!!
Best drill partner ever!
Great analysis! One must have the ability to rein in bangers to progress to dinking game at high level. You must be able to demonstrate you can not only handle their power, but also put them on defense by controlling the pace of the game! Strategy wins most points moving the opposition around the court like in a chess game! Thanks!
Thank you for tuning in, glad you enjoyed the video!
Hey i loved this video. How long did it take you to come up with these stats? Maybe can you make a video of the process so I can do this to my videos?
thank you, each game I analyze, take me at round 1.5 - 2 hours, depending on the length of the game and the stats I'm trying to record, it's not hard but just takes a lot of time, I like your suggestion and will add your suggestion to my list of ideas/suggestions for contents on this channel. Thank you
fantastic analysis!!! totally changes my approach and priority!
Thank you for sharing your feedback!
Thank you and well done for the informative analysis!
Thx for tuning in and appreciate your support!
Great video and insight. Those stats definitely match the typical rec play that I encounter. I’ll definitely make it a point to drill those first 5 shots.
Thank you for sharing your experience here, glad that you found this video helpful. To first FIVE SHOTS, cheers!
I watch 100's of PB videos this is the most impactful in terms of training I have ever seen. If you asked me to guess how many turn in to dinks off the top of my head I would have guessed something like at least 30%.
Thank you, I’m so glad that you found this helpful! Thank you again for the kind feedback!
This video is basically the same as tennis. At 3.0-4.0 you want to master the ground strokes and placement with good forehands and backhands. Drops, resets and dinking are higher level for pickle and so is net play in tennis. You need to build your foundation before you move up to higher level tactics. At higher level tennis, footwork, consistency, technique and strategy is important. So is with pickleball. I will tell you to play consistent, don’t try to win the ball with one stroke, be patient, have good defense and overall use good techniques.
Thx for sharing your knowledge!
Good Stuff. In class, we generally start dinking just to get warm and move a bit, then work on everything else. IMO, it's much easier to teach a new student how to drive the ball than it is to drop it. We work on controlling the drives first and drop shots come much later.
Like that idea, also I like the focus on controlling the drive to begin with rather than focusing on power!
you finally explained what I always thought; pickleball is not just dinking as one is often said
Thank you for sharing your thoughts here!
I actually had this very same revelation on my own (I started playing 6 months ago) and I noticed everyone always only wants to warm up or practice their dinks most.
Yet no amount of practicing your dinks is going to help you get to the line. So I've transitioned into largely focusing on drops and approaching the line.
Thank you for sharing your experience!
Hi, I'm in the process of analyzing my own 4.0 Gold medal match from this past weekend using the same criteria in your Excel sheet. I am curious as to what criteria you use to define a dink vs a drop? From the baseline I know it would be a drop but at what point in the court is it close enough to consider a dink? Also, how do you categorize shots that are taken out of the air that could otherwise be considered a dink by shorter players or the player just deciding to not let it drop? edit: Additional question - if a player needs to back off the kitchen line due to a popup, do you classify that as "player losing point at the kitchen?"
Took some liberties with the stats criteria for now but with my best judgement here are the stats. For reference, this was a mixed doubles 4.0 14-34yrs Gold medal match. Loss 9-11. Total shots: 273. Total rallies: 38. Average shots per rally: 7.18. Rallies ending in 5 shots or less: 17. Rallies with dinks: 11. Dink rallies with 2 dinks or less: 2. 18/38 rallies ended with the losing team having at least 1 player at the kitchen.
Also want to mention that my partner had a leg cramp during this match that we took a "medical timeout" for. It severely debilitated her movement to move up to the kitchen/get any ball in general, and as a result I had to play more aggressively to cover the court.
In the path to the finals there were some games that required us to dink more and others less, so while some people do spend too much time dinking as a warm up/drill I do think it pays off to have some familiarity with all aspects of the game. I will try to analyze one of the games with more dinks - one of the teams was particularly good with their third shot drops and targeted my partner quite hard at the net.
I'll spare you the details, but the numbers came out quite similar except the dink rallies were shorter (2 dinks or less were 37.5% vs the other game's 18.18%) and teams managed to get to the net more often (55% vs 47.37% in the medal match). I suspect these numbers are in part due to teams not being consistent enough to pull off quality dinks (ie. popping up the ball too fast) or being too impatient to attack (in some cases players tried attacking balls that were not suitable). Granted, the strategy in these games involved targeting from both teams, so it's mostly the reflection of two players in the dinking rallies.
~30% of rallies in these two games involved some kind of dinking, so I do think it is worth investing some time into, but only to the point where engaging in a dink rally isn't an automatic loss. How one would measure that, I'm not sure.
Thanks for reaching out, great questions! For me personally I consider anything within one step (two feet away) from kitchen line to be a dink, anything further than that consider as a drop! Similarly for the definition of Kitchen, I use the same rule for my analysis anything within 2 feet from the kitchen line is kitchen.
Thanks for sharing!!! This is great data point for other viewers!!
Thanks for sharing! Yes you are on point, I have seen some viewers commenting on this video completely misunderstanding my point, I’m not advising people to not put any time into learning dinking at all, but don’t put too much time into it until you get to the 4.0 level. Of course if someone has unlimited time to spare, they can do whatever they want with that luxury! By the time you become very consistent with the first 4-5 shots (which includes a drop shot), you should already have the neccesary skills to sustain a short dink rally at the kitchen with no problem (I.e drop is just a harder long dink). Also after you get to the kitchen, it doesn’t mean that dink is the automatic option, maybe try speeding up on the other teams and see if they can handle it, if not then just keep doing it to them until they earn the dink rally with you.
I’m a 4.0, and can attest this is generally true for 4.0 and below. I will say that when I play higher level people they are so good at keeping the ball unattackable and low, and yes, like you said, whoever speeds up the ball especially during a high level men’s doubles team, if they don’t win the point off the first speed up they usually lose. That’s a stat I’d like to know…. Of speed ups, in general, how many times does the one who speeds up win/lose the fire fight? Great vid, man, thanks for taking the time to dig into the point break down.
Thank you sir for taking your time to share your thoughts and experience here and thanks for the feedback!
That depends on the shot they choose to speed up on. They tend to look for a ball that will give them an advantage before speeding up.
I've seen the stat but don't remember it precisely, I think the speed up team had a 12% disadvantage of winning the point. The team returning the speedup has a high percentage of winning the point but not necessarily on the next shot. The speed up is usually hit with a slight trajectory up, the return with a slight trajectory down (return team has the advantage) and typically, as the rally continues the advantage for the returning team gets better and the disadvantage of the speed up team gets worse.
Great perspectives on how one should focus their training time. I did think it was weird my intro class didnt focus more on the serve, as how do you play a consistent game without having a consistent serve? The more realistic your practice is as compared to your average game, the better spent your time is!
You would surprised how difficult serve is for beginners, thanks for your time!
Very good info and data…. i will definitely base a lot of my decision on this data . Thanks
Thank you for watching and sharing your feedback!
This is great information. I have been practicing incorrectly since I started 2 months ago. I know in tennis, 70 percent of points end in the first 4 shots.
Thank for tuning in! Glad that you found this helpful!
Excellent presentation.
I believe that people in general should look at stats especially in sports so that they can dedicate their time practicing what is really worth practicing.
Thank you for tuning in and glad that you share similar thoughts as me! Yes always let the data speak!
I do not know how the return of serve is under rated being several coaches think that it is the most important shot in pickleball. Missing that shot will lose you the game.
Can’t agree more!
This has been my observation as well. Fast hard games is most of what the 3.5 and 4.0 like. What I think is funny to do to them is take the heat out of the ball, deadening it with a no power return and they will often hit it into the net.
Interesting idea about I might try that idea of soft return.
Thank you for this analysis and logical explanation!
Thank you for tuning in!
Wow such a great point! I’m gonna change up what I do for my drill sessions
Thank you for tuning in!
Killing it Jiang 🙌 love to see it brother
Thanks dude! Much appreciate the support!
Been doing pickleball for 6 .months from tennis. I've seen no dink-a-thons. Thanks 🙏 for the validation.
Thank you for watching and taking your time to share your feedback!
The thing is, most people want to move past their current level, so the real question is what is the analysis at the 5.0 level? It would seem that most points ending in the first 5 shots of a 4.0 level is the limiting factor keeping these people at 4.0. Is your advice more specific to how to win at 4.0 and below, but it would change for levels above that? I know ALW does 800 dinks everyday before she moves on to other things.
Yeah up to 4.0, I recommend players focus on getting consistent at the first 4-5 shots. Then shift focus towards kitchen game and dinks at 4.5+. It’s the order of progression.
@@superdupr.pickleball that makes a lot more sense then. Sub 4.5+, it's well-placed deep serves and returns, and more controlled 3rds that seem like a good focus.
I spend a few minutes dinking to warm up, then we take turns dropping as we back up then working on getting back to kitchen again and then partner backs up. etc. I think you may find out that getting to 4.0 this will work but then getting to 5.0 you will back to drops and dinking ironically. Driving all the time works against people who have struggle with it - sort of like lobbing to often.
I agree with you, dink and drops are more advanced shots in pickleball
@superdupr.pickleball yeah, I often beat tennis minded players by pulling them to the net and putting back and side spin on the ball... a lot of the top spin drives then go wide and into the net.
Good tactic
I agree with the premise and the info in the video. One caveat . Drop shots on third or fifth shot.
For sure, 3rd shot could be drop or drive. I do teams including even pros gravitating towards driving the 3rd more often now. 5th like you said is usually a drop.
I do not quite agree with that for one simple reason. The object, at least for me, is not just to win a game but also to get better. And it is clear that one cannot get better without learning to dink and improving your transition game. Hence, even if your stats are correct, which I am sure they are, we are drawing the wrong lesson if you want to get better.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I think there’s always right time for doing the right thing. There’s natural progression to learning anything in life, dink is an advanced skill in this game, but if you spend most of your time learning something that you may not get much chance to apply in real games (4.0 and below) and not being able to apply it in games, I question of the value of the drills. and being able to apply the skills you drill into real game is the real test of whether you are improving or not as a player, regardless of the outcome of the game. It’s a matter of learning things in an order that’s going to progress your game the fastest. practice the things that’s most appropriate for your level and the things that happen most often in your games. Once you grow out of that level, then learn the more advanced skills to further improve yourself to the next level.
@@superdupr.pickleballI kinda agree with most of it. It’s not either or. At some point, you have to apply in the games what you learned in practice even if it is initially uncomfortable and may result in loss of games. In the long run, in my view you will be a better player if you keep practicing all parts of the game, developing your skills, and gradually applying them in a game. I do not believe learning to properly dink is a waste of time.
For sure, having right amount of exposure to all aspects of the game is very important and I agree!
I appreciate your perspective. You might consider turning down the background music as I (and possibly others) found it distracting.
Thank you for the feedback I appreciate it!
i agree hard drives, smash volleys are the main shots from beginner's and mid level players. Learn all shots including dinking strategy. you are correct pointing out why many do not even factor dinking or third shot drops, most think that driving hard is more satisfying to test opponents to achieve 4.0 and above you need to know what shots are for defending and what shots can be an attack. Both sides of equal level ranking will find safe ground to neutralize from volley attacks hence dinking is then played. Not knowing this difference leaves players stuck in the 3.5 to 4.0 levels.
Thx for sharing
4.0 and below dont dink before a game to practice for in-game dinking. It's to get a feel of the ball on your paddle and warm up your softer touch shots. It'd be dumb to spend all that time just driving the ball back and forth like youre playing tennis
Thx for sharing
Yes, this might be true at 3.5 and below but at the 4.5-5.0 level we drop much more and get into the NVZ to battle.
You are very right 👍🏽 3.8-4.0+ players definitely try to see immediately how well you handle speed ups & hard drives. If your anticipation (right position, leave out balls), & hand battle skills are good then they try dinking
Thank you for tuning in and sharing your feedback
You are absolutely right. At my matches it is bang and get banged. Only dink if they hit a good drop shot
Very similar to most of the games I play, unless someone is actively trying to practice soft games, it’s just like you said bang or get banged.
Those are good points, but I play with careful intent improve and prepare myself to play with better players. Even though I can bang and dominate weaker players, I'm not learning a lot by doing that. The typical mistake at the 3.5 level is failure to get to the kitchen, because those players are trying to approach by starting a shootout from a weak position in the transition zone. Better to drop that third or fifth shot, get to the kitchen, and look for a speedup when the chances are better than equal. You won't get to be consistent at approaching drop shots unless you regularly use them. Rather than focusing on winning pointless games, I try to practice shots I'm weak at.
Agreed, work on whatever helps you to get to the kitchen consistently.
u r right....but dinking makes us sweat....need to get rid a lot of my fats
Good point :)
Dinking is a setup for a better speed up the reason you are losing because you dont have a tennis background meaning you dont have background of how to volley the ball.
Yup!
The slow drilling dink rallies are fun at rec games, but it is very hard to apply your dink skill at competition level. At the competition, the ball comes to you faster, if you are not used to faster ball, you will not have time to reset or dink, the ball will pop up, and most of time, if the ball pop just above the net, your opponent will drive or punch. Then, we are calling them bangers, the opponent should dink and return the ball nicely to you, right? To break 3.5 - 4.0 level faster, we need to practice reset and fast hand skills. But, if you are playing just rec fun games with friends, no deep dink, slow return, does not matter.
Very true!
5 dinks in a row from a 4.0 game is rare I would think. When games last 5-10 dinks everyone talks about how great the rally was. So it’s rare.
For sure 5-10 dinks is very rare at 4.0 level
Good players have variety of tools to utilize. Sometimes opponents are bangers, you punish them good blocks to their feet. Sometimes, your opponents are great with angle top spin vollley, you need to know how to reset dinks back to the kitchen. Pro level plays are mostly dinks because they are so good at counters. Unless you are good with counters, your opponents can drive at you all day and leading to matchs tht are simply drive, bang, and smash. As you progress to 4.0+, dinks will become more important skill to have.
Thx for taking your tim to share your experience!
Great video. Definitely changed my perspective in a good way
Thank you for the feedback!
The challenge is being good enough to force the other team to dink, if you can and they don't concede they are going to hit a poor speedup that you can either watch fly out or attack. I don't have a Tennis background as well so I'm not going to be able to out hit most people with a tennis background. Fast hands, good drops and dinks, and good timed speedups are enough to beat anybody 4.0 and below. Practicing Deep serves and Deep returns are a total difference maker as well, but any time I focus too much on deep returns I end up just giving points away. A high level Banger though you just have to funnel them down the middle and really have to be on your drop game
More reps on serve and return, you will just get better and better at deep return. You will give up points form time to time, but don’t let that discourage you.
do you have any third shot drop tutorial video?
It’s definitely on my long list of ideas that I wanna make video out of, i really struggle with time right now to implement a lot of them, but I’m sure it will come at some point in the future!
Wouldn't aggressive drop get you to the kitchen faster and out of the first five shot fear? The game may still not involve dinking, but I think the game still can be won at the kitchen. I feel counters and speed-ups at the net are more important because if you don't have these shots down cold, why even dink if the opponent knows you cannot punish them. Do you prefer to practice/drill a drive for a third shot or a drop?
You are right, and I agree with what you are sayings. For me, these days I spend 70/30 between drive and drop. Because I spent a lot of time in the past practicing dinks and drops, which are both very similar shots mechanically, so my drop is more consistent my drive. Plus I don’t have tennis background so my drive needs a lot more work than my drop.
So what is the next video? What’s the most important drill for us players under 4.0?
Yea I will share the drill that my partner and I do in the next video. Stay tuned
Very interesting... when can we expect the drill you guys are doing? Thanks for sharing!
Hey thanks for tuning in, I tried to release a full long form video every 10-14 days, with a full time job and family of 2 kids, it’s tough keeping up. But you should be to see that video coming out within the next two weeks.
Now I’m curious what was the most common shot that scored a point.
Maybe for a future video :) I didn’t track that. thanks for tuning in
Great analysis, can’t agree more, no matter what level of the player, if they can’t make the first 4 shots consistently then they will loss the point surely, a weak serve, a short return, a bad third shot drop or drive, attackable forth shot, then they could loss the game before the fifth shot or six shot becomes a dink game. Even the pro level players, they lose point when they make mistakes on the first four shots!
Also if you can’t make the first 4 shots consistently then you will not able to move up to a higher level anyway, keep drilling the first 4 shots which will help you get to the next level quicker than others. Also keep some dink drills going at the same time and resets too, specially speed up and counter for a fast hand practice!
Very well said, thank you for sharing your thoughts here!
Coming from tennis, I just want to CRUSH the ball but my short game (dinks and quick exchanges) for pickleball needs work. So this video is right on. I am working on my short game to be better rounded for pickleball. However, my serves, returns, and drives…MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 😂 I WILL CRUSH YOU….😂😂😂😂
Thank you, great to hear feedback from people with tennis background like yourself!
This has exactly been my experience and what I’ve realized on my own lately. I think you’re spot on. I’m finally working more on counters, being compact and being ready
Great to know that you share similar experiences, good luck and thx for tuning in!
Can you please share how to drill the 1st 5 shots?
I will share that in my next video, be sure to check back in! Thank you!
@@superdupr.pickleball Whether I agree with everything said, getting a good look at some ones drills for the first few shots is a great idea. I have never really worked on the 4th shot much as I generally expect to be at the kitchen in most cases. I believe a serve, return of serve, 3rd shot drop or drive combination is a great drill. I am planning to watch your return of serve video.
I think a variety of skills are needed and Resets are really important. I’ve played a lot of matches in this skill level and the best players (during their serve) can third shot drop, forcing the other team to dink, or do a very poor speed up that is hit upward. This gives the serving team the opporunity to hit it back downward. I think at 3.5 to 4.0 right now, you find a lot of teams that can defend really well when being served to, but cannot play as well when serving…a big part of that is their lack of ability to hit a third shot drop or reset, so they end up struggling to get forward.
I agree with you, mastering the first four shots and how to defend against speed ups and drives is what’s going to force the other team to play soft game with you.
It's my pet peeve that beginners lessons often spend too much time on dinking. Instructors usually start their lessons with it. And beginners have no idea why or when to dink in a game. You rarely see dinking until 3.5 in rec play. It's a higher level skill. So for newbies the time is better spent learning how to do ground strokes, blocks, and volleys rather than dinking.
I think I agree with you on this :) unless of course you come from a strong tennis background
@@superdupr.pickleball nope. Badminton and table tennis for me...both of which complement my pball game! 😉
@@superdupr.pickleball Squash is the best starter sport for pickleball IMO (well, technically Sphairee, but that's essentially mini-pickleball)
I played squash recreationally in college, there are certain transferable skills on my humble opinion, one time I played against a 6.0 pro in doubles, he came from a very competitive squash background (us national champion during his teenage years), his speed ups and drives were so crazy, a lot of wrist movement, so fast and close to the net.
Since watching your video, I have been watching 4.0 player games on TH-cam and counting the balls. It's also the same for my group ( 3.0 to 3.5 ) the point is over in about 5 rounds.
Thank you for confirming your experience!
I've cut down my dink time and increased my counter drills from the NV line and serve and return drills.
Way to go!
How did you get your stats?
Thanks for tuning in. I watch all these games, count and track each shot, after each rally I pause the video, manually write them down in a table, often I need to replay the rallies as there’s many stats I try to record. So when I mentioned in the video that I spend many hours analyzing the game, I’m not exaggerating, it’s pretty sad..
Great level appropriate advice. Too many try to follow advice how to play at the "pro" level when they're so far from competing at that level. 80-20 rule, 80% first-4 shoots, 20% dink, Got it, thanks.
Thank you for tuning in and sharing your feedback and thoughts!
The 2nd example, the "2023 US Open 4.0 mixed doubles 65+ Gold Medal Match" looks like 3.0 level to me. The rating thing in pickleball has been so confusing. Perhaps using DUPR could be more consistent.
Thx for sharing your thoughts
Yeah, if you are 4.0 and below, the rally won't last long. but if you want to move further ahead, it is almost automatically that you have to know how to dink and drive.
Well said, thx for sharing your thoughts!
It seems to me that the third shot drop is used when both opponents are at the NVZ and a drive is not really possible. You certainly don't want to use it to BRING them up to the line. Right?
Agree, keeping them back seem to make more sense
Dude… Such a great perspective and SO right. Loved this video, best pickle ball video of the year. I play at a 3.8 level and really agree especially with the first four or five shots. Keep it up man!!
Thank you for tuning in and sharing your feedback!
Seriously the best video...and I've watched thousands - not exaggerating. I've played for 2 years and have worked really hard to have a great dinking game - only to lose to newer players that come from tennis. I also have reviewed statistics from my tournament games at 3.5 level - and there is basically 0 dinking. Practicing getting to the line is IMO the very most important skill. And of course being able to defend the aggressive fast hard hits. Also important to know that play (at least at 3.5 and under) is super chaotic - meaning very difficult to predict the next shot of your opponent. I have spent enough time to learn what the "best ie highest percentage" shot would be in various situations, and at 3.5 and under most players never take those shots. So you have to be prepared for anything and everything all the time. LOVE the stats you shared thanks!!
Thank you!!! I’m glad our experiences have been similar, yes below 3.5 it’s very chaotic like you mentioned, getting ready for any ball is a good skill to have, really unpredictable.
Thank you for your video, very good information. Appreciated!
Thanks for tuning in, glad you found it helpful!
Enjoyed the content and breakdown of match statistics. Lower-level games are as described. Gosh, dinking and drop shots are hard. And who wants to practice slow-moving, boring things? What would you rather watch: a tortoise running or a cheetah running? So they bang away, hit out balls, etc., and they laugh and have fun (usually). But if someone wants to move up the skill ladder, that game will get beaten by better players who can handle the first five shots and conquer the net. I love dink battles. They are hard to achieve, as the stats show here in this video. The cat-and-mouse game at the kitchen between all four players ratchets up the tension... Who is going to make the first mistake?
The lower-level practice sessions focusing on the first five shots are an excellent game-winning plan. In rec play against my banger friends, I will either practice drops/dinks/resets to the backhand side whenever possible for the entire game (and I let my partner know ahead of time), then next gameplay the strong game and work on counter-attacks, drives, etc. Viewing them as practice opportunities to improve is more enjoyable than having to win every rec game.
IMO, nothing beats a solid dink battle game where nearly every point is played beyond the first 4-5 shots.
I watch men’s doubles pro games the most because I love dink rallies and kitchen game the most, it’s what makes pickleball pickleball, like you said people should develop the prerequisite to allow them to play real pickleball!
I really like what you did here, using actual stats to shed light on perceptions and reality. - Jim Ramsey, PPA Statistician.
Thank you Jim for tuning in, i guess that makes the two of us, I like studying the game and try to quantify theories with numbers.
Thank you for posting this helpful video
Thank you for tuning in!
Very informative for new players like me. Your videos should be watched first before anything else about pickleball. I also like how you did the statistics of the game. Continue creating informative stuff like this.
Thank you for tuning in and glad you found this helpful!
I came to the same conclusion a long time ago. Dinks are for warming up, then never used unless the other team doesn't come to the kitchen. (Please kill the background music. Thanks.)
Thx for the feedback
Interesting concept. Wish you had shown more of the actual play. Guessing as the very first point showed, when the woman hit an easy pop up and it got put away quickly, at the 4.0 level, that's how points are usually scored. Dinking is a better choice than hitting a weak set-up shot, which 85% or more of people I play against and with are guilty of. Dinking is a way of neutralizing the stronger, younger player. Playing a power game against them does not work.
Very insightful. Wow!
Thank you for tuning in, appreciate your comments and support!
Are the numbers of non-dink hits taking into account the serve and return in every game?
Yes of course, that’s why I think serve and return are so important and people often overlook them.
Good points. Makes sense. Thx
Thank you!
Very informative!
Thank you!