I will say, there's one thing about this DLC that I like - not just tolerate, like Episode 1 in general, but actively like - the base concept that the thing the Little Sisters and Big Daddies needed to bond was just empathy for one another. It's the series's final, fleeting comment on Objectivism (I found every other attempt to critique it in this DLC shallow and toothless) - for all their genius, for all their ego and smug superiority, Rapture could not *make* emotions, could not simulate what is ultimately a very selfless set of emotions - they created the Big Daddies to completely give of themselves for the Little Sisters, that's not Objectivist at all. What it took, the only thing that was needed, was for these children, these abused and tormented *children*, to look at a Big Daddy and see that it was hurt. Idk, there's something... sweet about that, in its own twisted way.
That's a really neat way of putting it. Almost like the children, even in their altered form, retained the humanity that Rapture's residents willingly abandoned
Monty telling Chase "you liked Zander Cohen!" Has the same energy as an aunt on Christmas realizing their thirteen year old nephew doesn't like the same things from when they were nine
Perhaps Burial At Sea was Ken's way of saying "I will not share my toys!", like on the blackboard in the classroom in Rapture. Burial, especially part two, is like a kid knocking over all of his toys that his friends were playing with and screaming at them until they go home: "they're my toys!". So he decided to make an incredible mess of everything, but in a way that makes it near impossible to really do anything else with. It's like he got the original word document, filled it full of questionable choices, bad ideas and mistakes, ... and then saved it as non-OCR'd PDF and deleted the original word doc. "If I can't have it no one will!" Now any attempt to make a canonical sequel to HIS Bioshock is fraught not only with the absolute the mess he's made but the fact that by that mess, he has figuratively "closed all the doors". A complete reboot will be necessary, i.e. "getting your own toys". I don't know if that is hubris or genius, or both.
Monty, you’re a really great voice actor, I think you capture the characters really well and make it very engaging to listen to, even if it is a rendition, I think they’re great!
I think the biggest missed opportunity was to explore the good and bad timelines of bioshock like part 1 could he like the bad timeline and part 2 could be like Elizabeth trying to change the timeline for the better
That entire transorbital lobotomy scene is pretty memorable for me. Like, the sympathetic pain I felt was off the charts lol. REALLY well-done stuff. Oh, and just to echo Chase's question: Ken, who hurt you, bud?
Something which I noticed while playing BAS recently is that I'm _pretty sure_ Suchong's grasp of English in the DLC is a *lot* more limited in it than it is in the first game. Which, if that is indeed the case, was... _certainly_ a choice from the voice-director(s).
what you missed about lizs death, the fact she came back to this point when she died made the quantum state collapse. she is no longer in a superposition where she can exist everywhere like the lutesses
I mean, from what we understand how it worked, the second she found the machine she could have put herself in a situation like that again. Would hurt like hell but she could. Fix the machine, open a rift, stick her pinkie in, turn it off, BOOP... Same situation once more.
This DLC is a pretty fun "what if", but it's Ken Levine's insistence on tying everything together that makes it annoying. In hindsight, I would have preferred a deeper dive into Columbia. There was more to learn there, opposed to Rapture where it was just continuity shredding easter eggs.
For the most part, I agree with you stance Monty. The first time through, Elizabeth being the catalyst is a fun twist in the heat of the moment. But when you take a step back, and look at the DLC as a whole and what it means for the series, it sucks. That said! I do want to defend the Air Grabber! Specifically, the pneumo lines! Pneumo lines would be referring to the pneumatic tubes that the people of Rapture used to transport mail and other small objects. You constantly find little dome like containers that you can open up and find stuff in, those are the end points of the pneumatic tubes where people can retrieve items. In Fontaine Fisheries, when Peach send you to retrieve the research camera, you get a good look at the mail room with has dozens of tubes throughout the room. Now, these are not prominent features of the architecture, and outside of these specified point they don't show up. They aren't hanging loose in a maze of tubes near the ceiling of every major room to be used by kids with an air grabber. But, they are existing elements of the city that were adapted for use with the mechanics of Bioshock Infinite, not an outright retcon.
Was really needing this episode as I’ve been looking very forward to it and this is my comfort series anytime, but especially when things aren’t great. I was listening to all of KH again and was on Birth By Sleep when I saw this so perfect timing! Thanks Monty, Neil, and Chase for keeping this series going!
This game really has the potential of having the same impact as Star Wars The Clone Wars Season 7. The tense knowing it's all a countdown until the the biggest event in the series' history, waking up and hearing the Kashmir has blown up, realizing that you're close to the end.
Kind of like when in Blackadder goes forth reached its final episode and they say "thank God, we lived through it, the Great War* 1914-1917. It's funny watching it with someone and waiting for the penny to drop
Man, I can't wait to see who does the 40K Lore Dump. That'll be like a full year's worth of random Horus Heresy stuff though, but super interesting! It's definitely not something for a single sitting, or even the couple weeks like for Kingdom Hearts. SO MUCH LORE
I actually disagree about the 1st point. The issue I have with it is that it is clear that the multiple timelines is a real thing. It wasn't created by Elizabeth. That means, that Elizabeth by that logic dies in our timeline, but there is an infinite number of other timelines where she doesn't die. This is essentially the equivalent to arguing that a timeline where Booker falls over the side of Columbia in the first 5 minutes is the true ending of Infinite because it is one of the bad endings to his story.
A timeline does exist where that happens. And another where it isn't. 2K screwed up trying to use Multiverse Theory because ALL timeliness are cannon. For better AND worse, in an infinite variety of differences and constants. Drowning Booker. DID. NOTHING!!!
the whole thing with burial at sea is its just indulgent without being cohesive. monty, i think what you said about levine and sequels is correct. he’s like jj abrams in that way: he can start a bunch of threads but he’s better off leaving them unexplained and letting the audience fill in the blanks. when he gets too into explaining the ideas they tend to go to bad places.
lmao the incredulous laughter interspersed with incredulous silence throughout this made it so worth it. see you next year, super looking forward to coverage of the arkham games!
And the BioShock Lore Dump saga comes to an end. From the highest highs to the deepest depths, and the odd lighthouse in between... It's been a good time, folks 💞 Looking forward to all the new Lore Dumps to come this year :D
It's such an enjoyable ride through the Bioshock series with all of you. Hearing the utter hate Monty has for the ending to this DLC and Chase doing his best to enjoy the evil Elizabeth, while Neil just gives up on life paragraph after paragraph. So looking forward to the 2024 lineup! Thank you for all the time and work you guys put into these videos!
Ah I can't wait to see the reaction to this DLC. I didn't ever play it despite really enjoying base game infinite. Was a trip to see what it was all about years later through your channel Monty. Either way lets dive in to the new year right lads, hope yours is good!
The only piece of Bioshock content I haven't played is Burial at Sea, and I want to sincerely thank you for turning the hours of disappointment I would've suffered as a fan of the God-Queen of Columbia into 1.75 entertaining hours.
Despite haing my issues with some questionably choices in these DLCs... some things that I absolutely LOVE 1. Getting to see proper Rapture in action 2. all the Noir dialogue between the last Comstock and Elizabeth 3. the ART. This game looks beautiful 4. the chemistry between Elizabeth and the Booker in her mind. Elizabeth telling this Booker that he's the only friend she ever had T____T 5. the bonding between the big daddies and the lil sisters
Because 2K screwed up using Multiverse Theory, let me explain something right quick. THERE IS NO "FINAL" COMMSTOCK. Hell, there isn't a "final" anything due to the Multiverse being truly INFINITE. Both for the better and worse in an infinite of variety
The ONLY explanation I've heard that can work for the whole "how does Elizabeth die here when she's meant to go back to the baptism" thing is that we aren't playing as the full Elizabeth, but rather a small piece of her which somehow splintered off when her body died at the end of ep 1. The full Elizabeth prime is still out there, doing her thing. But this ignores the part where she's arguing with the twins about going back so... Plothole?
53:59 wait hold up, is this like... a weird passive aggressive thing ken levine put in burial at sea because he said that elizabeth was like his video game daughter and he wanted the internet to stop making p*rn, and then the internet replied with a resounding 'no we're good'?
I love these games and I'm thrilled you guys covered them. Infinite and Burial can be convoluted and confusing as hell, I loved hearing you guys break everything down. Reminded me of some moments from the Kingdom Hearts series. I am DYING for you guys to lose your minds trying to understand the FNAF story and timeline.
This version of Daisy's sacrifice is infuriating. "Oh surprise player , she wasn't Bloodthirsty she actually sacrificed herself for the greater good". Daisy isn't really a good way to write a revolutionary of this kind. Just reminds me that no one who looked like me was actually in the writing room nor had any actual knowledge on black revolutionaries/uprisings. "Yes, black woman who had to deal with literal Sky Slavery/Sky Jim Crowe. You need to sacrifice yourself because this Disney princess woman you pretty much don't know AT ALL needs to have her turning point for a reason you're not gonna know and we're going to manipulate you to think your uprising that's actively happening is going to possibly fail if you don't sacrifice yourself. Oooh Daisy look you have so much depth now, you're such a hero." The trope is racist for her to be a step ladder for a Elizabethr's development. Just like how it's pretty misogynistic to write the "woman in fridge" trope. They were better off moving past the whole Daisy situation because it was clear they had no idea how to handle this kinda stuff.
YESSSSSSS!!!!!! I SCREAMED OUT IN EXCITEMENT AT THE TEASE!!!!! I’ve been waiting for this since your critiques Monty and those are some of my favourite games of all time!!!!
Super pumped about whats coming,absolutely adore the Arkham series, loved yakuza, and quite enjoyed playing the amazing human spider games. it seems the only podcast i can stand to listen to is just going down my list of hits. Probably going to have to wait until '25 if i want to see you guys maybe do Ace combat ("metal gear with planes") Devil May Cry (deeper lore than most realize) or go completely insane and do the legacy of kain series (the game whose complete timeline crashed my computer) Keep up the good work over the next year guys, if you are ever out here in bioshock country some adult juice is on me!
Before i give my opinion on the episode i just want to thank the crew for the bioshock lore dump saga, it was absolutely great to see monty cover the lore with chase and neil. BAS is a very controversial piece of content in the franchise and i think the biggest problems with it are the countless plot holes and the poor execution, the idea of going to rapture before the fall is a really strong concept that was inevitably going to be made into reality at some point but the execution that carried it out was very bad to say the least, its nice to see that everyone kept a pleasant mood up until the end despite all the twisted crap like elizabeth boiling saly in the vent, baby anna getting decapitated (chase's scream was hilarious LMAO) and the lobotomy sequence at the end which i think was an interesting part of the dlc because of how unique it is and shows how evil fontaine/atlas really is, i think the most thing that bothers me is the plot holes and monty highlights this fully in his BAS critique on his channel, every character and plot point in the dlc got atleast some sort of a plot hole or something that doesnt fit with the franchise or the dlc itself, i dont feel like this terrible expansion keeps me up at night and i can play it just fine but it just bothers me that they had to close the franchise off in the most displeasing ways, as for the new bioshock game apparently its in some sort of development hell with 2K and the team working on it not sharing a single thing with the public, i really dont want bioshock 4 to come out not because i dont like bioshock but i think the current environment of the industry isnt suitable for a good game, i feel like with what the current situation looks like the game could be mid at best unless they pull some huge comeback, hopefully it all turns out well
So Fontaine and Suchong did send Jack away, but once Fontaine needed him to take Ryan out then they got him on a plane with the package and the coordinates of Rapture. I assume they just Would you kindly'd him to get on the plane
… Okay I guess I’ll be the differing opinion here in the comments. I love Lore Dump and Monty’s videos, and I knew going in that it was going to be very negative, but still… I love Burial at Sea. Listening to this podcast, the biggest takeaway for me is that your enjoyment of this ultimately comes down to whether or not you’re okay with Rapture and Columbia’s stories mixing together. These guys clearly weren’t, but I am. I like the connections, I like this twisted relationship between the two worlds, I like seeing Elizabeth, a character I enjoy infinitely (heh) more than Jack, interact with a bunch of the great characters of the original masterpiece. Is it fan-service? Absolutely it is, but I can’t deny the glee I got for most of the DLC as it went on. And really, I like that this all ultimately ends up being one big circle. Elizabeth’s actions create the BioShock we know, it’s over, it’s done with, a last stamp of Ken Levine going “this is where MY BioShock ends, no matter what 2K does with the IP later” and honestly I respect the hell out of it. Last note, I gotta admit I did feel a bit miffed at your little berating aside to people saying “oh you didn’t do it justice” because “what does it matter, the writing is shit”. And… sure? I guess? But just because you don’t like the writing doesn’t mean everyone involved didn’t give it their all ESPECIALLY Courtnee Draper. Her performance throughout all of Infinite was great, but from the lobotomy scene onward she acts her fucking ass off, she gave everything she had and it moves me to tears almost every time I replay the DLC. I understand your hatred of the writing overshadows anything good, but that doesn’t mean there’s no good to be had here either. Anyways, that’s my 2 cents. I liked Burial at Sea, you all didn’t, hardly the first time I’ve had a differing opinion but hey, that’s why everyone’s different. I look forward to your Arkham Lore Dump videos, I imagine they’ll be an interesting context for when we get to Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League which I believe is in the same canon…? We shall see.
Very well said. Also, IMO, just because Levine says it's "canon" doesn't make it so. Bioshock isn't his, it belongs to the passionate people working on the games. The very fact that he's arrogant enough to decide that his word is law and dismiss all of BioShock 2 tells me he's not worth listening to
I think a lot of the problems derive from the "this is exactly the same rapture as BS1" comment. Like, had they just kept it to one of the many rapture out there, a lot of the retconning and plot hole issues people have kind of go away as you can explain them as "well this is how *this* rapture works"
9:01 I think the Department Store instead of Persephone makes sense even if Levine had been fully compliant with BS2 lore. Persephone was a prison. It wasn't a vacuum to suck up every undesirable automatically. Why would Ryan waste time having Sinclair pick off Atlas and his men one at a time to send to Persephone if he knew they were conveniently all holed up in the Department Store? Just sink the whole store and you not only get rid of Atlas and his rabble-rousers in one fell swoop, but also a competing business to Ryan Industries. Also, 51:13 it is traveling to another universe that makes the nosebleeds because whenever you do, your memories get rewritten like Booker's did at the beginning. Your nose bleeds whenever the discrepancy between the memories in each universe becomes apparent.
If I had a nickel for every amazing game series with a cool story and the best art direction that ended with an out of character DLC where the creator destroyed his best character so nobody else could play with his toys I'd have two nickles. Seriously Bioshock and Dishonored have SUCH big parallels.
Do we think they torpedoed it semi-purposely to make sure it really was the “bioshock to end all bioshocks” or at least make it hyper convoluted for someone to try and pick up?
1:14:28 well here's MY only reason why I liked this part of the DLC, because it - VERY BADLY AND WEIRDLY - confirmed for me that Songbird was an organic *someone* who was protecting Elizabeth the same way Big Daddies were protecting Little Sisters. and for me that headcanon even found in this DLC *who* would be that protector - Booker who lost Anna. who only had a headless body in his hands. what kind of person would submit to become a voiceless and almost mindless protector of a child? a grieving father. and if there's constants and variables, then Songbird is Bookers (and maybe Comstocks) who want to protect their child. otherwise this DLC is bloody insulting to me on several levels. especially considering how a somewhat large portion of people consider this DLC a "true ending", because for me this is one of the reasons why some gaming companies think that it's NORMAL to sell the game's ending as a DLC. I am looking at Dragon Age Inquisition in particular.
Look, considering infinite literally undid itself by the end of BAS, i think its fair to consider the whole game as noncanon. BAS at the very least. This dlc really kind if drove home that ken levine 1) is not as smart as he thinks he is, and 2) needs people to rein him in when he DOES have good ideas
I think my least favorite thing about burial at sea is it killed my favorite aspect of infinite. I loved the idea that Columbia used tears to copy technology from rapture and the modern world. It worked really well with the constant motifs throughout infinite that Columbia was all phony, relying on stealing other peoples’ ideas, Comstock’s own knock off rapture with his own philosophy rather than objectivism. But no Colombia had to be the original, which at that point I don’t know why Ken didn’t just start with Colombia.
ya know, i've loved this bioschock series!! but with infinite things really went off the rails and (dare I say...) with the whole quantum multiple timelines and so on.... it reaches kingdom hearts levels of "ok I dont understand this BS but i'm just kind of along for the ride at this point". Maybe that's just because of the loredump format though where we get the whole story all in a row without any down time to think about it? Either way, as always a fantastic listen and looking forward to what comes next!
I thought the Pneumo tubes were the mail delivery service. It was the thing we used to give the rose to Dr. Langford. Regardless its dumb as fuck that we're able to just ride them around with the "Fontaine Vaccuum". This DLC was such a let down, all I wanted was a DLC being a random detective exploring rapture on a side quest. Great job as always and thanks to Neil for getting me to now call all guns "old man lead spitters"
Burial at Sea is an odd duck of a DLC and piece of writing. From the "Auteur Franchise Management" perspective, it almost makes sense. In fact, if the only big thing BAS did was retcon 2 because Ken L didn't work on it, I'd kinda get it. I wouldn't like it probably, but I'd get it. Why exactly it tries to make everything in BS1 the direct result of Elizabeth's actions, though, I don't understand. It doesn't make Elizabeth any more important really, if only that if she was more important to Infinite she'd be a fundamental interaction. It doesn't make the games fit together any better than "in these two parallel universes, some stuff were happening" explanation from Infinite. It doesn't explain any plot holes that basic reading comprehension couldn't comfortably iron out. It's a baffling attempt at a victory lap that just takes that final leap up into it's own ass that the ending of Infinite was balanced so expertly on the cusp of turning into.
I think I figured out a way for the Infinite ending and Burial at Sea to both occur. At the end of Infinite there is the collective of however many Elizabeth’s from across the multiverse. They end the cycle. When Burial Elizabeth goes back to Rapture she is cut off from this collective and goes through the DLC with the rest of the various Elizabeths carrying out the ending of Infinite. Does the above explanation make any sense ?
I actually loved this dlc.. i don’t think any of the “retcons” r that egregious except for the vigors/plasmids stuff.. would it have really killed them to just name the plasmids the same way they were named in bioshock 1? It’s just such a simple fix it makes it so much more annoying
Everything to do with BioShock Infinite makes me feel like I want to bash my head against a wall 1 and 2 were simpler no fucking alternate universes that confuses you to death
I dont care what anyone says, my head cannon is that this isn't the bioshock 1 rapture. I know that it is, but it's so much more tolerable if it's an alternate reality.
Infinite is further evidence that multiverses are a black hole of storytelling. I have never seen one that actually explored interesting ideas and wasn't just an excuse for bad retcons and fanservice. Honestly Chase may have been right about Ken Levine riding on one really good game. Or, to be generous, three, since Thief and System Shock 2 are pretty great.
I somehow managed to miss that Bioshock was your most recent series when I found this channel, so I assumed you'd just decided not to do Burial at Sea for whatever reason.
To be the smart ass I love to be, um actually, it makes sense that Ryan has Atlas‘s genetic code without knowing that he’s Fontaine, he programmed the genetic code in before Fontaines “death“ and just decided not to delete it. I will say, unless Ryan sank the department building after his death then it wouldn’t make any sense.. that’s what they did didn’t they? Sighhhh! Fuck burial at sea..
Besides the retcons being as subtle as a hammer, I would argue that Daisy's sacrifice is in character for her. She had a goal and wanted to see it through to actually help people be free from the tyranny that they were facing in columbia. Of course she wanted to see it through herself, but if she couldn't, she would have at least let the mission be completed without her. I'm kinda disappointed that you immediately jumped to racism with this, ie. "Shes sacrificed herself, a black woman, to prop up a white woman." She didn't sacrifice herself for Elizabeth, she sacrificed herself to for her goal instead of selfishly pursuing it knowing she would have probably failed otherwise (if she believed the twins anyway). Why was that boiled down to "its racist and I hate it?" Of course it doesn't fit with the original narrative and it changes the context of what happened. I'm not saying that I like how they handled it, but I also think it sits better with Daisy's orignal character before the whole dimension hopping confused the narrative so much you couldn't really understand where most people stood because you didn't have most of the context for each situation in each world that they went to. I think the weakest part of Bioshock Infinite was how they handled their parallel universes and this is their poor attempt to patch that up their story and make things make more sense... but kinda trashing on what they built. "Original" Daisy might have been that martyr, but the Daisy we see was a couple of hops through dimensions removed and definitely seemed more hell bent on getting back at the people who caused her pain rather than freeing the people, but that version of Daisy also seems to be a very different person from when we originally see her. The only thing that makes sense besides that universe having a very blood thirsty Daisy, is that the twins were "coaching" her this whole time in her interactions with our duo. Not a perfect fix and probably not better than the original script, but way better than jumping to "I hate it because its racist and doesn't fit with how I see Daisy."
Gonna be honest , as a black person this version of Daisy's sacrifice is infuriating. "Oh surprise player , she wasn't Bloodthirsty she actually sacrificed herself for the greater good". Daisy isn't really a good way to write a revolutionary of this kind. Just reminds me that no one who looked like me was actually in the writing room nor had any actual knowledge on black revolutionaries/uprisings. "Yes, black woman who had to deal with literal Sky Slavery/Sky Jim Crowe. You need to sacrifice yourself because this woman you pretty much don't know AT ALL needs to have her turning point for a reason you're not gonna know and we're going to manipulate you to think your uprising that's actively happening is going to possibly fail if you don't sacrifice yourself despite the fact that visually When playing the original BioShock infinite, it definitely didn't look like it was necessarily failing. Oooh Daisy look you have so much depth now, you're such a hero." The trope is racist for her to be a step ladder for a character's development. Just like how it's pretty misogynistic to write the "woman in fridge" trope. They were better off moving past the whole Daisy situation because it was clear they had no idea how to handle this kinda stuff.
@@ArtsyFoxoI don't disagree that it was handled poorly or that the twins were basically used as a convenient device with little explanation as to why she would believe them, just that 1.) I don't think Daisy's choice is completely out of the realm of possibility, and 2.) To boil the choice down to being racist without considering anything else just seems disingenuous to me (not from you, but from Monty). If we got rid of race or gender from the scene, it would be one person sacrificing themselves for a cause they believed in (no matter how gullible they seemed in context) because they thought that their goal wouldn't be completed otherwise. To call it simply racist is like saying that a person of color wouldn't be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for something they believed in to make it a reality. Again, she didn't sacrifice herself to prop someone else up, she sacrificed herself because she believed it would complete her goal and I don't think thats a wrong perspective to have.
@@net_spider The issue is that you can't really divorce race from the scene because that is a huge part of why the character is uprising in the first place. That's why a lot of people (Like Monty and MANY others), justifiably hop to saying that it's racist very quickly because it is very blatantly obvious and frustrating. It's not that people didn't "consider anything else". It's because whatever angle you look at, it's terrible characterization and writing. "If you got rid of race and gender out of the scene." There's your first huge flaw here. You can't just use a "black revolutionary leader character" and place it within the context of literal sky slavery and then try to take your "colorblind" kind of characterization of the generic revolutionary character archetype as if that's a way to try and salvage it/ say "well... it's in character cuz they're a revolutionary leader. To get their goal achieved!". It's not that characters that are people of color aren't able to sacrifice themselves for the greater good for "what they believe" in stories. It's that if you're making a story that essentially has an uprising that's basically "sky slavery uprising/sky jim crowe uprising". Writing it in a "colorblind" & generic way is not going to feel "in character" to people who know a damn thing about this kind of stuff. Like I said before, they had no idea what they were doing and it would have made the DLC a bit better if they just moved past it.
@@ArtsyFoxoI don't know if I entirely agree with that assessment, but I do think I understand better why people might have been way more angry at this retcon than I originally thought and thank you for giving me some thoughts to digest and think over. I apologize if I riled you up over this... I tend to have trouble understanding the deeper nuances of things, mostly trying to understand intent behind things instead of underlying subtex of situations, but that approach usually leads me to take a "benefit of doubt" approach. ... I am unsure if I'm making much sense saying that... Umm... Regardless, I agree that they should've probably done something different or just left it as is due to how poorly they handled it, but to me it was an ill informed, but honest attempt at trying to connect the larger universe... they just really F'd it up and didn't ask themselves if that was a good idea in the first place.
i take infinite as a whole as a mescaline induced flight of fantasy by rosalind lutece while working in a lab, thats just because its impossible for everything in either game to happen in any reality or all realities : obviously it ruins the idea of the game but its how i cross that bridge to be able to play it haha. i love seeing the environs and that also carries me through infinite and bas but my god the writing is so bad here....they cant even cop out of the retcons. i should say i love your podcasts and explorations of these games especially the perspectives you each offer each time.
Worst DLC ever created I love the base game of Bioshock infinite and this DLC does nothing but completely ruin the game for nostalgia bait and Ken completely erased Bioshock 2 because since he didn't make it the game doesn't matter in his mind and he completely ruined Elizabeth and its weird that the porn versions of Elizabeth are more accurate then this version of her 🙄🙄🙄 Fuck this entire DLC
Ah yes. The worst Bioshock content easily. If Bioshock 1 is a 8-9/10 Bioshock 2 is a 9/10 Bioshock 2 Minerva's den is a 10/10 Bioshock Infinite is a 7/10... Then Burial at Sea is at best 5/10 but honestly most of the time is it 4/10
Thanks for being here! We'll be back on February 1st to kickstart our 2024 slate for real 👀
The unified screeching when they realized the tear was gonna decapitate the baby is priceless
I will say, there's one thing about this DLC that I like - not just tolerate, like Episode 1 in general, but actively like - the base concept that the thing the Little Sisters and Big Daddies needed to bond was just empathy for one another. It's the series's final, fleeting comment on Objectivism (I found every other attempt to critique it in this DLC shallow and toothless) - for all their genius, for all their ego and smug superiority, Rapture could not *make* emotions, could not simulate what is ultimately a very selfless set of emotions - they created the Big Daddies to completely give of themselves for the Little Sisters, that's not Objectivist at all. What it took, the only thing that was needed, was for these children, these abused and tormented *children*, to look at a Big Daddy and see that it was hurt. Idk, there's something... sweet about that, in its own twisted way.
I wholeheartedly agree. Recognising that was the only thing that made me not completely hate the DLC’s storytelling when I first played it.
That's a really neat way of putting it. Almost like the children, even in their altered form, retained the humanity that Rapture's residents willingly abandoned
Monty telling Chase "you liked Zander Cohen!" Has the same energy as an aunt on Christmas realizing their thirteen year old nephew doesn't like the same things from when they were nine
Perhaps Burial At Sea was Ken's way of saying "I will not share my toys!", like on the blackboard in the classroom in Rapture. Burial, especially part two, is like a kid knocking over all of his toys that his friends were playing with and screaming at them until they go home: "they're my toys!".
So he decided to make an incredible mess of everything, but in a way that makes it near impossible to really do anything else with.
It's like he got the original word document, filled it full of questionable choices, bad ideas and mistakes, ... and then saved it as non-OCR'd PDF and deleted the original word doc.
"If I can't have it no one will!"
Now any attempt to make a canonical sequel to HIS Bioshock is fraught not only with the absolute the mess he's made but the fact that by that mess, he has figuratively "closed all the doors". A complete reboot will be necessary, i.e. "getting your own toys".
I don't know if that is hubris or genius, or both.
Damn you hit the nail on the head holy shit
Monty, you’re a really great voice actor, I think you capture the characters really well and make it very engaging to listen to, even if it is a rendition, I think they’re great!
I think the biggest missed opportunity was to explore the good and bad timelines of bioshock like part 1 could he like the bad timeline and part 2 could be like Elizabeth trying to change the timeline for the better
That entire transorbital lobotomy scene is pretty memorable for me. Like, the sympathetic pain I felt was off the charts lol. REALLY well-done stuff. Oh, and just to echo Chase's question: Ken, who hurt you, bud?
Thank you for getting these our quickly I couldn’t way to get through the entire story with you guys!!! As always thank you for what you guys do ❤
Same, probably my single most uncomfortable experience in my entire history as a gamer.
Something which I noticed while playing BAS recently is that I'm _pretty sure_ Suchong's grasp of English in the DLC is a *lot* more limited in it than it is in the first game.
Which, if that is indeed the case, was... _certainly_ a choice from the voice-director(s).
what you missed about lizs death, the fact she came back to this point when she died made the quantum state collapse.
she is no longer in a superposition where she can exist everywhere like the lutesses
I mean, from what we understand how it worked, the second she found the machine she could have put herself in a situation like that again.
Would hurt like hell but she could.
Fix the machine, open a rift, stick her pinkie in, turn it off, BOOP...
Same situation once more.
This DLC is a pretty fun "what if", but it's Ken Levine's insistence on tying everything together that makes it annoying.
In hindsight, I would have preferred a deeper dive into Columbia. There was more to learn there, opposed to Rapture where it was just continuity shredding easter eggs.
Neil’s takes are like 10/10 every time. So clever. Thank you Neil for making these even more amazing.
For the most part, I agree with you stance Monty. The first time through, Elizabeth being the catalyst is a fun twist in the heat of the moment. But when you take a step back, and look at the DLC as a whole and what it means for the series, it sucks. That said! I do want to defend the Air Grabber! Specifically, the pneumo lines! Pneumo lines would be referring to the pneumatic tubes that the people of Rapture used to transport mail and other small objects. You constantly find little dome like containers that you can open up and find stuff in, those are the end points of the pneumatic tubes where people can retrieve items. In Fontaine Fisheries, when Peach send you to retrieve the research camera, you get a good look at the mail room with has dozens of tubes throughout the room. Now, these are not prominent features of the architecture, and outside of these specified point they don't show up. They aren't hanging loose in a maze of tubes near the ceiling of every major room to be used by kids with an air grabber. But, they are existing elements of the city that were adapted for use with the mechanics of Bioshock Infinite, not an outright retcon.
Was really needing this episode as I’ve been looking very forward to it and this is my comfort series anytime, but especially when things aren’t great. I was listening to all of KH again and was on Birth By Sleep when I saw this so perfect timing! Thanks Monty, Neil, and Chase for keeping this series going!
This game really has the potential of having the same impact as Star Wars The Clone Wars Season 7. The tense knowing it's all a countdown until the the biggest event in the series' history, waking up and hearing the Kashmir has blown up, realizing that you're close to the end.
Kind of like when in Blackadder goes forth reached its final episode and they say "thank God, we lived through it, the Great War* 1914-1917. It's funny watching it with someone and waiting for the penny to drop
Man, I can't wait to see who does the 40K Lore Dump. That'll be like a full year's worth of random Horus Heresy stuff though, but super interesting! It's definitely not something for a single sitting, or even the couple weeks like for Kingdom Hearts. SO MUCH LORE
Somethings I do like about this DLC
1. seeing the tragic fate of Elizabeth
2. Experiencing rapture before the fall
3. It's just fun
I actually disagree about the 1st point.
The issue I have with it is that it is clear that the multiple timelines is a real thing.
It wasn't created by Elizabeth.
That means, that Elizabeth by that logic dies in our timeline, but there is an infinite number of other timelines where she doesn't die.
This is essentially the equivalent to arguing that a timeline where Booker falls over the side of Columbia in the first 5 minutes is the true ending of Infinite because it is one of the bad endings to his story.
A timeline does exist where that happens. And another where it isn't.
2K screwed up trying to use Multiverse Theory because ALL timeliness are cannon. For better AND worse, in an infinite variety of differences and constants. Drowning Booker. DID. NOTHING!!!
the whole thing with burial at sea is its just indulgent without being cohesive. monty, i think what you said about levine and sequels is correct. he’s like jj abrams in that way: he can start a bunch of threads but he’s better off leaving them unexplained and letting the audience fill in the blanks. when he gets too into explaining the ideas they tend to go to bad places.
This is legitmately my favorite podcast, and I am SO excited for the next series.
lmao the incredulous laughter interspersed with incredulous silence throughout this made it so worth it. see you next year, super looking forward to coverage of the arkham games!
Something to note about that scene with Elizabeth and the Luteces on the boat. The bodies in the water are all Elizabeth.
And the BioShock Lore Dump saga comes to an end. From the highest highs to the deepest depths, and the odd lighthouse in between... It's been a good time, folks 💞
Looking forward to all the new Lore Dumps to come this year :D
17:03 when my nephew enters my room and try to touch my things
It's such an enjoyable ride through the Bioshock series with all of you. Hearing the utter hate Monty has for the ending to this DLC and Chase doing his best to enjoy the evil Elizabeth, while Neil just gives up on life paragraph after paragraph. So looking forward to the 2024 lineup! Thank you for all the time and work you guys put into these videos!
Ah I can't wait to see the reaction to this DLC. I didn't ever play it despite really enjoying base game infinite. Was a trip to see what it was all about years later through your channel Monty. Either way lets dive in to the new year right lads, hope yours is good!
What are ur thoughts after watching the video?
That screech was gold 🤣
The only piece of Bioshock content I haven't played is Burial at Sea, and I want to sincerely thank you for turning the hours of disappointment I would've suffered as a fan of the God-Queen of Columbia into 1.75 entertaining hours.
Despite haing my issues with some questionably choices in these DLCs... some things that I absolutely LOVE
1. Getting to see proper Rapture in action
2. all the Noir dialogue between the last Comstock and Elizabeth
3. the ART. This game looks beautiful
4. the chemistry between Elizabeth and the Booker in her mind. Elizabeth telling this Booker that he's the only friend she ever had T____T
5. the bonding between the big daddies and the lil sisters
Because 2K screwed up using Multiverse Theory, let me explain something right quick.
THERE IS NO "FINAL" COMMSTOCK.
Hell, there isn't a "final" anything due to the Multiverse being truly INFINITE. Both for the better and worse in an infinite of variety
The ONLY explanation I've heard that can work for the whole "how does Elizabeth die here when she's meant to go back to the baptism" thing is that we aren't playing as the full Elizabeth, but rather a small piece of her which somehow splintered off when her body died at the end of ep 1. The full Elizabeth prime is still out there, doing her thing. But this ignores the part where she's arguing with the twins about going back so... Plothole?
This was such a treat to listen to!
53:59 wait hold up, is this like... a weird passive aggressive thing ken levine put in burial at sea because he said that elizabeth was like his video game daughter and he wanted the internet to stop making p*rn, and then the internet replied with a resounding 'no we're good'?
Monty I also believe that Burial at Sea is not Canon!!
Have a great day guys.
Monty your Arkham reviews are my favorite of yours, im so hype for the Arkham Lore Dumps!
I love these games and I'm thrilled you guys covered them. Infinite and Burial can be convoluted and confusing as hell, I loved hearing you guys break everything down. Reminded me of some moments from the Kingdom Hearts series.
I am DYING for you guys to lose your minds trying to understand the FNAF story and timeline.
This version of Daisy's sacrifice is infuriating. "Oh surprise player , she wasn't Bloodthirsty she actually sacrificed herself for the greater good". Daisy isn't really a good way to write a revolutionary of this kind. Just reminds me that no one who looked like me was actually in the writing room nor had any actual knowledge on black revolutionaries/uprisings.
"Yes, black woman who had to deal with literal Sky Slavery/Sky Jim Crowe. You need to sacrifice yourself because this Disney princess woman you pretty much don't know AT ALL needs to have her turning point for a reason you're not gonna know and we're going to manipulate you to think your uprising that's actively happening is going to possibly fail if you don't sacrifice yourself. Oooh Daisy look you have so much depth now, you're such a hero."
The trope is racist for her to be a step ladder for a Elizabethr's development. Just like how it's pretty misogynistic to write the "woman in fridge" trope.
They were better off moving past the whole Daisy situation because it was clear they had no idea how to handle this kinda stuff.
YESSSSSSS!!!!!! I SCREAMED OUT IN EXCITEMENT AT THE TEASE!!!!! I’ve been waiting for this since your critiques Monty and those are some of my favourite games of all time!!!!
these Lore Dumps have been such a saviour over the last few weeks guys, much love from aberdeen
Biggest revelation in the entire Bioshock series that nobody else addressed: dancing baugette boy 😂 that kid sure loves his Long Bread™
Super pumped about whats coming,absolutely adore the Arkham series, loved yakuza, and quite enjoyed playing the amazing human spider games. it seems the only podcast i can stand to listen to is just going down my list of hits. Probably going to have to wait until '25 if i want to see you guys maybe do Ace combat ("metal gear with planes") Devil May Cry (deeper lore than most realize) or go completely insane and do the legacy of kain series (the game whose complete timeline crashed my computer)
Keep up the good work over the next year guys, if you are ever out here in bioshock country some adult juice is on me!
One thing that is cool the last picture it looks like they have wings made of light while they are kneeling in front of the city.
Before i give my opinion on the episode i just want to thank the crew for the bioshock lore dump saga, it was absolutely great to see monty cover the lore with chase and neil.
BAS is a very controversial piece of content in the franchise and i think the biggest problems with it are the countless plot holes and the poor execution, the idea of going to rapture before the fall is a really strong concept that was inevitably going to be made into reality at some point but the execution that carried it out was very bad to say the least, its nice to see that everyone kept a pleasant mood up until the end despite all the twisted crap like elizabeth boiling saly in the vent, baby anna getting decapitated (chase's scream was hilarious LMAO) and the lobotomy sequence at the end which i think was an interesting part of the dlc because of how unique it is and shows how evil fontaine/atlas really is, i think the most thing that bothers me is the plot holes and monty highlights this fully in his BAS critique on his channel, every character and plot point in the dlc got atleast some sort of a plot hole or something that doesnt fit with the franchise or the dlc itself, i dont feel like this terrible expansion keeps me up at night and i can play it just fine but it just bothers me that they had to close the franchise off in the most displeasing ways, as for the new bioshock game apparently its in some sort of development hell with 2K and the team working on it not sharing a single thing with the public, i really dont want bioshock 4 to come out not because i dont like bioshock but i think the current environment of the industry isnt suitable for a good game, i feel like with what the current situation looks like the game could be mid at best unless they pull some huge comeback, hopefully it all turns out well
What an absolute treat to accompany me on my drive to work this morning 😊
1:36:05 for personal reasons 😂
So Fontaine and Suchong did send Jack away, but once Fontaine needed him to take Ryan out then they got him on a plane with the package and the coordinates of Rapture. I assume they just Would you kindly'd him to get on the plane
… Okay I guess I’ll be the differing opinion here in the comments. I love Lore Dump and Monty’s videos, and I knew going in that it was going to be very negative, but still… I love Burial at Sea.
Listening to this podcast, the biggest takeaway for me is that your enjoyment of this ultimately comes down to whether or not you’re okay with Rapture and Columbia’s stories mixing together. These guys clearly weren’t, but I am. I like the connections, I like this twisted relationship between the two worlds, I like seeing Elizabeth, a character I enjoy infinitely (heh) more than Jack, interact with a bunch of the great characters of the original masterpiece.
Is it fan-service? Absolutely it is, but I can’t deny the glee I got for most of the DLC as it went on.
And really, I like that this all ultimately ends up being one big circle. Elizabeth’s actions create the BioShock we know, it’s over, it’s done with, a last stamp of Ken Levine going “this is where MY BioShock ends, no matter what 2K does with the IP later” and honestly I respect the hell out of it.
Last note, I gotta admit I did feel a bit miffed at your little berating aside to people saying “oh you didn’t do it justice” because “what does it matter, the writing is shit”. And… sure? I guess? But just because you don’t like the writing doesn’t mean everyone involved didn’t give it their all ESPECIALLY Courtnee Draper.
Her performance throughout all of Infinite was great, but from the lobotomy scene onward she acts her fucking ass off, she gave everything she had and it moves me to tears almost every time I replay the DLC. I understand your hatred of the writing overshadows anything good, but that doesn’t mean there’s no good to be had here either.
Anyways, that’s my 2 cents. I liked Burial at Sea, you all didn’t, hardly the first time I’ve had a differing opinion but hey, that’s why everyone’s different.
I look forward to your Arkham Lore Dump videos, I imagine they’ll be an interesting context for when we get to Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League which I believe is in the same canon…? We shall see.
Very well said.
Also, IMO, just because Levine says it's "canon" doesn't make it so. Bioshock isn't his, it belongs to the passionate people working on the games.
The very fact that he's arrogant enough to decide that his word is law and dismiss all of BioShock 2 tells me he's not worth listening to
I think a lot of the problems derive from the "this is exactly the same rapture as BS1" comment. Like, had they just kept it to one of the many rapture out there, a lot of the retconning and plot hole issues people have kind of go away as you can explain them as "well this is how *this* rapture works"
it just feels like Burial at Sea is Ken Levine being angry that someone else touched his franchise and eliminating Bioshock 2
Because I'm sadistic, I'm gonna suggest FF14 as a lore dump, if only for the yearlong series it'd generate like Kingdom Hearts has.
The screams at THAT moment around 31:40. 😂
Oh boy, can't wait to hear Monty have a hate fueled aneurysm explaining this.
9:01 I think the Department Store instead of Persephone makes sense even if Levine had been fully compliant with BS2 lore. Persephone was a prison. It wasn't a vacuum to suck up every undesirable automatically. Why would Ryan waste time having Sinclair pick off Atlas and his men one at a time to send to Persephone if he knew they were conveniently all holed up in the Department Store? Just sink the whole store and you not only get rid of Atlas and his rabble-rousers in one fell swoop, but also a competing business to Ryan Industries.
Also, 51:13 it is traveling to another universe that makes the nosebleeds because whenever you do, your memories get rewritten like Booker's did at the beginning. Your nose bleeds whenever the discrepancy between the memories in each universe becomes apparent.
If I had a nickel for every amazing game series with a cool story and the best art direction that ended with an out of character DLC where the creator destroyed his best character so nobody else could play with his toys I'd have two nickles.
Seriously Bioshock and Dishonored have SUCH big parallels.
What’s the other one?
@@Thewatcher-ej6qv Dishonored
Honestly I think I'd like the dlc more if it weren't connected to bioshock, since the whole thing of bioshock 1 is being able to chose your destiny
Do we think they torpedoed it semi-purposely to make sure it really was the “bioshock to end all bioshocks” or at least make it hyper convoluted for someone to try and pick up?
1:14:28 well here's MY only reason why I liked this part of the DLC, because it - VERY BADLY AND WEIRDLY - confirmed for me that Songbird was an organic *someone* who was protecting Elizabeth the same way Big Daddies were protecting Little Sisters. and for me that headcanon even found in this DLC *who* would be that protector - Booker who lost Anna. who only had a headless body in his hands. what kind of person would submit to become a voiceless and almost mindless protector of a child? a grieving father. and if there's constants and variables, then Songbird is Bookers (and maybe Comstocks) who want to protect their child.
otherwise this DLC is bloody insulting to me on several levels. especially considering how a somewhat large portion of people consider this DLC a "true ending", because for me this is one of the reasons why some gaming companies think that it's NORMAL to sell the game's ending as a DLC. I am looking at Dragon Age Inquisition in particular.
wow, this was quick. Wasn't expecting another episode so quickly. Or am I just not paying attention to time?
Even though it jumbled the story more, I think these DLCs are phenomenal. The story isn’t anymore chaotic and messy than the infinite main game
Look, considering infinite literally undid itself by the end of BAS, i think its fair to consider the whole game as noncanon. BAS at the very least. This dlc really kind if drove home that ken levine 1) is not as smart as he thinks he is, and 2) needs people to rein him in when he DOES have good ideas
I think my least favorite thing about burial at sea is it killed my favorite aspect of infinite. I loved the idea that Columbia used tears to copy technology from rapture and the modern world. It worked really well with the constant motifs throughout infinite that Columbia was all phony, relying on stealing other peoples’ ideas, Comstock’s own knock off rapture with his own philosophy rather than objectivism. But no Colombia had to be the original, which at that point I don’t know why Ken didn’t just start with Colombia.
ya know, i've loved this bioschock series!! but with infinite things really went off the rails and (dare I say...) with the whole quantum multiple timelines and so on.... it reaches kingdom hearts levels of "ok I dont understand this BS but i'm just kind of along for the ride at this point". Maybe that's just because of the loredump format though where we get the whole story all in a row without any down time to think about it? Either way, as always a fantastic listen and looking forward to what comes next!
Did Suchong really invent a Lutece device on his own? I thought he was supposed to be a geneticist...
I thought the Pneumo tubes were the mail delivery service. It was the thing we used to give the rose to Dr. Langford. Regardless its dumb as fuck that we're able to just ride them around with the "Fontaine Vaccuum". This DLC was such a let down, all I wanted was a DLC being a random detective exploring rapture on a side quest. Great job as always and thanks to Neil for getting me to now call all guns "old man lead spitters"
Oh god, of course Chase likes the DLC-it's gone completely Kingdom Hearts-level crazy, retcons and need for handwaving and all
Arkham! Just when I'm replaying on ps5, timing is awesome and hopefully I get to finish yakuza 0 and 6 before you cover them. 😁
Burial at Sea is an odd duck of a DLC and piece of writing. From the "Auteur Franchise Management" perspective, it almost makes sense. In fact, if the only big thing BAS did was retcon 2 because Ken L didn't work on it, I'd kinda get it. I wouldn't like it probably, but I'd get it. Why exactly it tries to make everything in BS1 the direct result of Elizabeth's actions, though, I don't understand. It doesn't make Elizabeth any more important really, if only that if she was more important to Infinite she'd be a fundamental interaction. It doesn't make the games fit together any better than "in these two parallel universes, some stuff were happening" explanation from Infinite. It doesn't explain any plot holes that basic reading comprehension couldn't comfortably iron out. It's a baffling attempt at a victory lap that just takes that final leap up into it's own ass that the ending of Infinite was balanced so expertly on the cusp of turning into.
I think I figured out a way for the Infinite ending and Burial at Sea to both occur. At the end of Infinite there is the collective of however many Elizabeth’s from across the multiverse. They end the cycle. When Burial Elizabeth goes back to Rapture she is cut off from this collective and goes through the DLC with the rest of the various Elizabeths carrying out the ending of Infinite. Does the above explanation make any sense ?
I actually loved this dlc.. i don’t think any of the “retcons” r that egregious except for the vigors/plasmids stuff.. would it have really killed them to just name the plasmids the same way they were named in bioshock 1? It’s just such a simple fix it makes it so much more annoying
Everything to do with BioShock Infinite makes me feel like I want to bash my head against a wall 1 and 2 were simpler no fucking alternate universes that confuses you to death
Ooooooh boy * rubs hands together * Here we go folks!!
I dont care what anyone says, my head cannon is that this isn't the bioshock 1 rapture. I know that it is, but it's so much more tolerable if it's an alternate reality.
Infinite is further evidence that multiverses are a black hole of storytelling. I have never seen one that actually explored interesting ideas and wasn't just an excuse for bad retcons and fanservice.
Honestly Chase may have been right about Ken Levine riding on one really good game. Or, to be generous, three, since Thief and System Shock 2 are pretty great.
time travel too, kinda.
I somehow managed to miss that Bioshock was your most recent series when I found this channel, so I assumed you'd just decided not to do Burial at Sea for whatever reason.
GET THIS MAN A PLANE - Frank Fontaine for some reason
Happy New Year to all our lore dump lads 🎉
so excited for this.
To be the smart ass I love to be, um actually, it makes sense that Ryan has Atlas‘s genetic code without knowing that he’s Fontaine, he programmed the genetic code in before Fontaines “death“ and just decided not to delete it.
I will say, unless Ryan sank the department building after his death then it wouldn’t make any sense.. that’s what they did didn’t they? Sighhhh! Fuck burial at sea..
New lore dump Monday!
Retcons and variables
As always, new lore dump dropped, time to drop everything I'm doing
Is no one going to mention that the big daddy had a grapple drill?
I am so glad I never payed money for this train derailment of a story
Another get f'ed from Neil to add to the collection. I hope the next games dont upset the boys as much as this.
We are all the rubes for taking this dlc seriously
Besides the retcons being as subtle as a hammer, I would argue that Daisy's sacrifice is in character for her. She had a goal and wanted to see it through to actually help people be free from the tyranny that they were facing in columbia. Of course she wanted to see it through herself, but if she couldn't, she would have at least let the mission be completed without her. I'm kinda disappointed that you immediately jumped to racism with this, ie. "Shes sacrificed herself, a black woman, to prop up a white woman." She didn't sacrifice herself for Elizabeth, she sacrificed herself to for her goal instead of selfishly pursuing it knowing she would have probably failed otherwise (if she believed the twins anyway). Why was that boiled down to "its racist and I hate it?"
Of course it doesn't fit with the original narrative and it changes the context of what happened. I'm not saying that I like how they handled it, but I also think it sits better with Daisy's orignal character before the whole dimension hopping confused the narrative so much you couldn't really understand where most people stood because you didn't have most of the context for each situation in each world that they went to. I think the weakest part of Bioshock Infinite was how they handled their parallel universes and this is their poor attempt to patch that up their story and make things make more sense... but kinda trashing on what they built.
"Original" Daisy might have been that martyr, but the Daisy we see was a couple of hops through dimensions removed and definitely seemed more hell bent on getting back at the people who caused her pain rather than freeing the people, but that version of Daisy also seems to be a very different person from when we originally see her. The only thing that makes sense besides that universe having a very blood thirsty Daisy, is that the twins were "coaching" her this whole time in her interactions with our duo.
Not a perfect fix and probably not better than the original script, but way better than jumping to "I hate it because its racist and doesn't fit with how I see Daisy."
Gonna be honest , as a black person this version of Daisy's sacrifice is infuriating. "Oh surprise player , she wasn't Bloodthirsty she actually sacrificed herself for the greater good". Daisy isn't really a good way to write a revolutionary of this kind. Just reminds me that no one who looked like me was actually in the writing room nor had any actual knowledge on black revolutionaries/uprisings.
"Yes, black woman who had to deal with literal Sky Slavery/Sky Jim Crowe. You need to sacrifice yourself because this woman you pretty much don't know AT ALL needs to have her turning point for a reason you're not gonna know and we're going to manipulate you to think your uprising that's actively happening is going to possibly fail if you don't sacrifice yourself despite the fact that visually When playing the original BioShock infinite, it definitely didn't look like it was necessarily failing. Oooh Daisy look you have so much depth now, you're such a hero."
The trope is racist for her to be a step ladder for a character's development. Just like how it's pretty misogynistic to write the "woman in fridge" trope.
They were better off moving past the whole Daisy situation because it was clear they had no idea how to handle this kinda stuff.
@@ArtsyFoxoI don't disagree that it was handled poorly or that the twins were basically used as a convenient device with little explanation as to why she would believe them, just that 1.) I don't think Daisy's choice is completely out of the realm of possibility, and 2.) To boil the choice down to being racist without considering anything else just seems disingenuous to me (not from you, but from Monty). If we got rid of race or gender from the scene, it would be one person sacrificing themselves for a cause they believed in (no matter how gullible they seemed in context) because they thought that their goal wouldn't be completed otherwise. To call it simply racist is like saying that a person of color wouldn't be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for something they believed in to make it a reality.
Again, she didn't sacrifice herself to prop someone else up, she sacrificed herself because she believed it would complete her goal and I don't think thats a wrong perspective to have.
@@net_spider The issue is that you can't really divorce race from the scene because that is a huge part of why the character is uprising in the first place. That's why a lot of people (Like Monty and MANY others), justifiably hop to saying that it's racist very quickly because it is very blatantly obvious and frustrating. It's not that people didn't "consider anything else". It's because whatever angle you look at, it's terrible characterization and writing.
"If you got rid of race and gender out of the scene." There's your first huge flaw here. You can't just use a "black revolutionary leader character" and place it within the context of literal sky slavery and then try to take your "colorblind" kind of characterization of the generic revolutionary character archetype as if that's a way to try and salvage it/ say "well... it's in character cuz they're a revolutionary leader. To get their goal achieved!". It's not that characters that are people of color aren't able to sacrifice themselves for the greater good for "what they believe" in stories. It's that if you're making a story that essentially has an uprising that's basically "sky slavery uprising/sky jim crowe uprising". Writing it in a "colorblind" & generic way is not going to feel "in character" to people who know a damn thing about this kind of stuff.
Like I said before, they had no idea what they were doing and it would have made the DLC a bit better if they just moved past it.
@@ArtsyFoxoI don't know if I entirely agree with that assessment, but I do think I understand better why people might have been way more angry at this retcon than I originally thought and thank you for giving me some thoughts to digest and think over.
I apologize if I riled you up over this... I tend to have trouble understanding the deeper nuances of things, mostly trying to understand intent behind things instead of underlying subtex of situations, but that approach usually leads me to take a "benefit of doubt" approach.
... I am unsure if I'm making much sense saying that...
Umm... Regardless, I agree that they should've probably done something different or just left it as is due to how poorly they handled it, but to me it was an ill informed, but honest attempt at trying to connect the larger universe... they just really F'd it up and didn't ask themselves if that was a good idea in the first place.
i take infinite as a whole as a mescaline induced flight of fantasy by rosalind lutece while working in a lab, thats just because its impossible for everything in either game to happen in any reality or all realities : obviously it ruins the idea of the game but its how i cross that bridge to be able to play it haha. i love seeing the environs and that also carries me through infinite and bas but my god the writing is so bad here....they cant even cop out of the retcons.
i should say i love your podcasts and explorations of these games especially the perspectives you each offer each time.
ALL HAIL GOD-QUEEN ELIZABETH COMSTOCK!!
Let's go🎉
Worst DLC ever created
I love the base game of Bioshock infinite and this DLC does nothing but completely ruin the game for nostalgia bait and Ken completely erased Bioshock 2 because since he didn't make it the game doesn't matter in his mind and he completely ruined Elizabeth and its weird that the porn versions of Elizabeth are more accurate then this version of her 🙄🙄🙄
Fuck this entire DLC
Don't forget - You can always get even more French!
Ah yes.
The worst Bioshock content easily.
If Bioshock 1 is a 8-9/10
Bioshock 2 is a 9/10
Bioshock 2 Minerva's den is a 10/10
Bioshock Infinite is a 7/10...
Then Burial at Sea is at best 5/10 but honestly most of the time is it 4/10
Moral of the story: time travel and multiverse hopping stories will inevitably turn into a convoluted fucking mess. Stay well away from it.
By the end of this video, it started to sound like this particular episode was each of your Joker origin story lol
Yay!!!!!
The Daisy retcon isn't racist. It is bad storytelling though, on that we agree