I think that Kevin has a fair amount to take responsibility for, he watched Ruby abuse those kids during the 8 passengers period of her career (before Jodi). You are right he abdicated his duties as a father. I do think that he was in abusive relationship but he had the means to get out and protect his children unlike many other spouses in abusive relationships. He is not a good father.
I agree. He is both a victim and a participant in this. But he is still a victim. However the way Shari speaks about him and the sort of hand waving his responsibility feels very Mormon coded to me. Similar to how Shari's abuser was protected, so is Kevin. Men will always be protected in Mormonism.
The problem is that the culture of Mormonism makes things worst. I know this because I grew up in it. The hypocrisy that exists within this dynamic don’t help their case because it has happened in my family. Not at the same situation but kind of similar.
Absolutely, 💯, YES to everything you said about her dad. Abandoning his kids was a cowardly, scarring, awful tragedy and he is so lucky that he has remained in Shari’s good graces.
@@J-Dune Uh, no. There are plenty of fathers, and I dare say the majority of them, who wouldn't abandon their kids to a partner whom they know is abusive.
The video of Kevin after recently being reunited with his daughter and accompanied by police. Kevin tries to get her arrested for taking a laptop from the house. Those kids can’t catch a break. They go from Ruby to this father that got a pass for the years of abuse.
Kevin was part of behaviors that looked a lot like abuse way before Jodie came into their lives. Those poor kids were not all fine and dandy before Ruby meet Jodie.
I had a very similar situation growing up and thought my mom was the angel who was a victim too, it took me a long time, well into my 30’s to get angry with her for not rescuing us. It was once I had kids that I could look at the situation more clearly. It will take Shari sometime to get there. It took hard honest conversations to make things right between my mom and I.
This. In her 30s, she may come to terms with what her father didn’t actually do. I truly think your 30s are the first time in your life when you can look back clearly and see your childhood from a different perspective
I'm at 3:49 and I have to say EXACTLY! As a kid of an abusive mother and a father that let it happen, I completely understand the desire to tether to someone, anyone. Our animal brain tells us our parents equate safety. But he abused those kids as much as their mother did.
My Dad also. He was patriarchal and the kids were her job. She was a terror and even roped him in to the abuse just to keep her happy with him. We had no one to help us. My youngest brother to this day has NOTHING to do with her. He's 46. A lot has changed. She became a human being when the grandkids came around, he just has no interest in forgiveness. He's at peace with just not engaging anymore, he left the minute he graduated high school and never looked back.
I’m an exMormon too and felt the same. I can understand though how the church could be the one stable thing in her life right now. One thing she wrote near the end was that she no longer trusts church leaders to speak for God, and she now will always prioritize her own spiritual judgement. That’s HUGE and IMO it’s difficult to stay a “typical” Mormon with that mindset. She is still at BYU so if she has experienced a faith transition she wouldn’t be able to speak openly about it, because they could kick her out and withhold her credits. I believe she graduates later this year and is planning to go to law school and I wish her all the best!
I never expected an apology from my abusive mother. She drank so much that she often could not recall what she had done. When I finally realized how much damage she. done and continued to do I just walked away. I did not speak to her for the last 15 years of her life. That was the right decision for me and I have no regrets about closing the door on her.
My comment on the book is that it seemed honest and well written. I liked how she kept it to her story while mentioning her siblings but not by name. That struck me. How she was able to discuss the family dynamic but in a way of the effects it had on her and her own development. She left their story almost for them to share if they chose too, she seemed protective of them as children unlike her parents who were exploiting cc and cruel to all of them. It surprised me how forgiving she seemed of her father Kevin. It would be interesting to hear an honest accounting of things from his perspective as well as I struggle to understand how he stood by and allowed Ruby to do these things to her children for years. Even long before Jody came along. This book for me was a reaffirmation of the feeling I have that evil hides in many churches and religions, l Great book well written lots of honesty and surprises without continuing to exploit the sibling's.
The two things Kevin did that stood out to me, was 1) he defended Ruby when their audience called out the abuse and 2) when Ruby was arrested and he was sitting across from the investigators, his immediate reaction was to show far more concern for Ruby than for his injured children.
@@janwilliams3841 He didn't initially believe Ruby would hurt their kids. The investigator said the kids were found in bad shape, but that seemed to go right over his head. He was asking more questions about whether Ruby was okay.
He was brainwashed, beaten down and demoralized. From the video you can tell he is a shell of a person. Have you gone through that kind of trauma to understand the strength it must take to pull yourself from the depth of pain and stand up to your abuser, so you can then be a good Dad?
Looking forward to the chat tonight about this. I still don't know how I feel about a lot of it, but I do know the couple that she came to call mom and dad are angels for supporting her in the ways that they did. They deserve to be praised.
From watching Mormon Stories, I’ve noticed a lot of people leave when they have children. It’s different when they see the effects of the teachings on their child. I’m a former fundamentalist Christian and I think most churches have some toxic teachings. However, the LDS is a high demand religion that shapes people’s identities and relationships. It’s very difficult to leave.
As a child abuse survivor and an Adult abuse survivor there was nothing my ex could do ( and he tried everything ) to get me to give up custody of our children to him. I fought with every ounce of strength I had to keep them and have them and help them grow into healthy, functioning, loved adults. So like many I cant understand how he just gave up his children. It angers me.
Please look into Adam Paul Steed’s story regarding Jody. He is the one who sued her and her reprimanded by the licensing board. She used strict religious ideology to manipulate his family in a similar way.
Thank you so much for covering this and giving your input. It’s given me a bit of insight on my own healing journey. “It causes psychological distress” & “it never works out trying to get that apology and full understanding of the damage they’ve done”. Time to let go 🤷♀️ Appreciate u!
When fathers tried to stand up for themselves, Jody had the father’s be accused of SA ing the children. It’s possible that he was scared of being accused of that or had already been accused of that and was so embarrassed that he just left.
I came out of a quiverfull ish cult... i left at 18.. but it has taken me decades to fully unpeel that onion of religion.. where she is now, isnt where she is likely to be in a couple of decades
I have always asked myself why a person with so much education like her father gets brainwashed in this kind of cults. Then, I found the Adam Paul Steed’s story in which Jody H. is also involved and the Lori Vallow’s case in which the Vision of Glory book is presented as well, and I concluded that the Mormon Church has a mayor problem with cult.
I not only was denied an apology, i somehow got blamed for what was done to me. So i understand your point, and i continue with therapy, which is quite helpful.
Thank you for talking about Kevin’s role - rarely here comments on his role. He is definitely culpable in this. Also, discussing the importance of a father to children. I have no compassion for him either. Shari has lost so much, I think the idea of seeing Kevin’s failure and the failure of LDS is probably too much to let go of right now. Time will tell as she processes this more. I wish her all the best. ❤
I think Shari did feel genuinely loved by her father, despite Kevin failing his children as a father. On the contrary, she mentioned in the book that she never felt loved by her mother, but rather feared her.
There’s a term “protecting the good name of the church” that members know…to the ends…to a horrific, abusive fault. There is so much swept under the rug there.
I agree with you about wanting apologies or giving forgiveness. I realised my family is never will never apologise for the trauma I went through and I dont need to forgive them to be happy. We only need to learn how to live with trauma so that it doesnt overwhelm us, doesnt hold us back, that we can accept it happened, changed us, but we dont let it stop us from being happy now and in the future.
In my experience, passive people are perceived as kind and patient as they are non confrontational. I had a very passive father and had idealized him because compared to my mother, he was the perfect parent. But once I had children of my own, I had to admit that my father failed in standing up for us and taking us away from the constant toxicity that was caused by my mother. I had to be honest about his shortcomings and wonder why he couldn’t or wouldn’t take a stand. But again, just like Shari perceived her father to be more patient, more listening and kind, I get the need to want to keep that relationship there and move past the shortcomings. When I read her book, I feel like she could honestly perceive the complex nature of her father and yet appreciate the way that he has been attempting to change his behaviour after the veil of the cult was lifted from his eyes.
I have to wonder that when the dust has settled and Shari has her own children, she might come to a similar conclusion. For now, she needs her father and I get this.
For over 20yrs my Aunt has done specialized foster care for kids who've experienced serious trauma. Kevin's relationship with Shari has a direct effect on his chances of reunionification with the younger 4 kids. Add in the older girls weren't placed back with him in the first 3mo's is a GIANT red flag, then you go a year, and that tells you Kevin isn't following court orders. We believe Kevin is manipulating or guilting Shari and Chad in order to get the kids back. I don't want to write 5 paragraphs on what Kevin has done and how it hinders getting the kids back or how the cases normally go in family court but seriously this is bad.
@RebekahWhyte Where and when was this announcement? Oct 24 is when Kevin said publicly the kids are all still in care of the state, the case is still listed as active and on going. The older brother Chad talked about the kids coming for the holidays; that is a regularly scheduled visitation not reunionification.
I agree 100% with your assessment of the Franke family dynamic. I do see Sherry seeing her dad as the safe parent. He was not actively involved in the abuse. He just sat back and allowed it to happen. Which to me is as bad. She may one day come to realize how bad her dad’s reaction and inaction was. It is so horrific what parents do to children with impunity
The LDS church continued to refer congregants to Jodi even after her losing her license. There is a good and enlightening discussion about this on Mormon Stories Podcast.
The way the lds churches works is by layers of authority. You are taught from the very beginning with children’s songs and hymns sung by the whole congregation together that you will go where the prophet or the bishop or whoever is your leader, you will go where they want you to go, say what they want you to say, do what they want you to do. None of these people showed up as whole healthy people before they made this family. They showed up brainwashed, abused, and more full of resolve to follow their leaders than ever. It’s all incredibly tragic, and it’s no coincidence they were lds.
I am not sure if the interview is still on TH-cam but if it is you should listen to the interview with Adam Stead on Mormon Stories about his interactions with Jodie, It may give some insight into Kevin's actions. Having said that I still agree he abdicated his duties
Overtime I expect that Sherry will move on and realize the way that her father and her church and others in her family betrayed her and didn’t take care of her, but sometimes you have to weed those out slowly because you need something just anything to rely on so that you aren’t bereft.
David - I am not going to watch this until I finish the book but I want to say - What an impressive author. She really has an amazing ability to share her story. I only know surface level of the channel, never watched....so I am going into it not knowing much. I can't put it down. I will find out if you feel the same tomorrow ha ha.
I agree with you, saying sorry doesn't mean anything. She's better off working on creating good memories for herself and her future and a better strategy to heal. If her mother is not on the same page as her, it's pointless to try. I'm not saying an apology doesn't work. It only works for some, and it usually would work for serial offenders who try overtime to get better.
Kevin seems weak to me and was manipulated by Ruby and Jody. He should never have left the home. He has been as responsible for the abuse of the children as Ruby. He should be punished as well. I hope those kids are doing better, and are never returned to their parents.
I agree with your assessment of Kevin ... and Shari's view of her father now. So much of this abuse was BEFORE Jodie, though Jodie to it to a new level of evil!!
They needed evidence of the guy taking advantage of Shari in order to punish him. They couldn’t punish him without evidence-all they had was her word. At the end of the book it sounded like the church was punishing him, so there was a happy ending there. So either he finally confessed or Shari showed evidence of his wrong doing. It’s for sure a difficult position. Repentance is also a personal matter, so the best they could do is help Shari come to peace with the horrible situation. And it sounded like her second bishop did a better job with that. Shari realized that the leaders of the church are just imperfect men, and the only relationship she could rely on is her relationship with god. She must have been able to see the doctrine of the church clearly, and connect with it-despite those around her distorting it. I was honestly amazed with her strong relationship with god-it was a life line she needed through the horrible trauma she suffered.
I just wanted to add that bishops are random men called to the position. They are not paid, and they are mostly not psychologists. I say mostly because there might be a few that are professionally psychologists in their normal life. But they are just husbands and fathers, so most don’t know the best ways to go about trauma like this. I really wish they would be trained to know what to do or at least refer trauma victims to people that know how to address such matters. But I think that’s why she was able to forgive them because they are just men volunteering their time.
I think people are missing the part gender roles play here. Kevin is getting more blame because cultural norms expect men to be the protector and Kevin failed big time here. Yet it also sounds like he had some traits of learned helplessness that can be present in abusive relationships….no matter what he did Ruby would still do the things she did. We don't know how abusive Ruby was to Kevin. I'm not absolving him of any blame, just trying to offer a perspective that gender in family violence and cultural norms might play in understanding Kevin's lack of action in preventing the abuse by Ruby towards the children and the level of blame by the public he is getting.
Shari is still a student at BYU, which means she can’t speak openly about her current beliefs if they’ve changed. Students who leave the church or disavow the faith get kicked out of the university, and often they’re not allowed to take their transcript to transfer somewhere else. She has said she’s planning on going to law school and graduates soon, so that’s a very good reason not to reveal too much. Or maybe not, maybe she’s still 100% on board with Mormonism. Some of the things she wrote though made me think maybe she’s not. I loved the book and appreciate your analysis!
This is what the church teaches, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become”. Keep reading about this church doctrine as if you wish to join. Then read more stories and try TH-cam testimonials of so many members. I’m married to a victim of this “church” for 50 years. This is just a mild story in my eyes. She lived and she can see. If not? She could not, she would not have written her story. Good review of book. Pls keep reading. You live near the church in Colorado. I lived in Evanston Wyo. I am not LDS. I feel free, yet I do not worship in a church. I’m allowed to decide that my worship of God and me sharing my belief is the way I live the way I treat others. I do my best to follow God. It is shown in my actions. They are bound, cradle to grave, and beyond. What church has already baptized all the dead ppl on Earth so they can decide after they are dead to embrace this church. Once joined? You cannot change your mind. There is no way out of pure hell. So don’t even read about what others believe. I cannot go on. Secrets, secrets,secrets.
One thing you have to remember when it comes to her not leaving LDS is they are taught that their church is the "only true church". It isn't like *most* Christian denominations where they believe that the only way is through Jesus, but they can attend different churches/denominations. In her eyes there is no other way no matter how awful the denomination may have been towards her. It's really heartbreaking because that leads to people accepting the abuse, no one being held accountable, and to a distorted belief about God and who He is.
One thing is how a therapist sees what is going on. Yes, it may be kind of objective. Still, we all have needs for close relations and we tend to idealize them.
I believe Shari is on her way out of the LDS church. She's only 21 years old! Right now trying to rebuild her life, leaving the church will just cause way more trauma. I don't think she's ready for it, but she will be soon enough.
I think Kevin was checked out right from the beginning. In the early days he was never around and quite clearly Ruby was floundering and unable to cope on her own.
My mom wasn’t in my life as much as I would’ve liked. I asked her why I lived w dad and not her, she said he could give me The life/stability I deserve. That’s fine and I get it but I wondered why she didn’t try to improve herself/situation so we could live together/be closer. Oh that’s bc she never found fulfillment in motherhood like I have. Her loss. You’re right, the answers don’t help but they help. I know where she stands. Alone.
Shari is what we used to call a "resilient child." These kids manage to triumph over horrendous childhoods, where you'd expect them to spiral into alcohol & drug abuse - or worse.
Agree. I’m a never mo, but the stories are fascinating. The LDS teachings breed the toxicity and abuse, at a higher level than most mainstream religions. It’s a high demand religion that affects so much of their lives and relationships, it’s difficult to leave. Most of their identity is being LDS.
So, you think if a woman is passive and doesn’t stick up is ok (not in this situation of course). ie if Wife or woman stay in an abusive relationship. I don’t agree with your statement about not giving the dad that same right.
I think it depends on where the abuse is directed. Seemingly, Ruby's violence was reserved for the children. If he were contending with abuse himself and couldn't or didn't know how to get himself and his children safe, that's one thing. If the situation is a woman knows her husband is abusing her children but that woman centres the man anyway then that woman is culpable. Think about relationships where the stepdad is assaulting the daughter but the woman ignores her daughter because he gives the mother attention or pays the bills. People have nothing but contempt for that woman. It's the same situation here. The reason I say that is he was passive well before Jodi came on the scene. He is a victim in relation to Jodi but not Ruby. He enabled and participated in Ruby's emotional abuse at the very least. It was documented by them on their TH-cam channel.
I actually believe Shari is and always has been more of a balanced and a more rounded individual adult than both her parents. I don’t think she’s quite ready to address her father’s culpability as yet. ❤️from Australia 🇦🇺.
As an ex-Mormon myself this book to me was another eye opening and also an another affirmation that my feelings and experiences are valid. About Kevin Frankie and his actions or lack there of keep in mind what Ruby and Jodie were manipulating was the fact that his self sexual satisfaction is adjacent to murder. Not giving him a pass but guilt like that is so powerful Having been indoctrinated myself, as well as, carrying the type of guilt for so many years it’s unbearable. Now on the outside looking back in it’s hard to explain to others just how much guilt one carriers for something so harmless as self pleasing. Then on top of it you gave you church leaders telling you that your actions puts you next to someone who’s murdered. To then have a therapist and counseling groups / peers I don’t think I’d lasted as long as Kevin.
I have nothing favorable to say about Kevin. He pisses me off. If ever a time will come for Sheri to fully understand the depth of her father's neglect will be when she has children of her own. I'm also going to push back on a statement made previously by Allison about morality and people no longer joining churches. Churches and "faith based groups" are consistently a part of the problem. Maybe review the book Losing Moses on the Freeway: The 10 Commandments in America by Chis Hedges.
Reminder that Kevin wanted to press charges for robbery on Shari when the police let her in Ruby's home to pick up her siblings things from the house that HE WASN'T LIVING IN when the kids got placed with her to foster.
"He allowed his kids to be abused..." And that in and of itself is against the law in Utah, specifically stated. I still don't know why he's not in jail. And I worry about the kids- all of them- who will continue to have a relationship with him. I think all on his own, he's a dangerous person. It's okay if the kids as adults want to have a relationship with him as long as they realize that he is abusive (and in my opinion very manipulative) also.
I agree that it makes zero sense for the LDS Church to victim blame Shari and keep her from being able to participate in the Temple. However, as an Ex-Mormon myself I feel that I have to point out a very common misconception. The Temple is not the normal meeting place for the LDS Church, the place where they go every Sunday called a Chapel. Not going to the Temple doesn't cut you off from your community, it's a place that most Mormons VERY rarely ever go to in order to do very specific rituals. In fact, Shari probably will only do the Temple Ordinances for the first time when she gets married. Consdiering she didn't go on a mission, she almost certainly hasn't been through the Temple yet at all. Also, I don't think people should judge Shari for remaining in the church. Indoctrination is extremely hard to come out of and it is often a slow and painful process to leave a high demand religion. I didn't believe in Mormonism anymore since the time I was 16, but I remained in the church (and even went to an LDS college) until I was 25, mainly for extremely complicated community and family reasons.
I totally agree about Kevin. How did he not have his own brain to make any decisions. The only thing I can think of was that he was threatened that he was sexually abusing his kids.
Of course, Sherry will be doing everything to keep at least one parent "good" in her mind. If she can place all the blame on her mom, she gets to keep her dad. Just as she does as much mental gymnastics to try and keep her faith. Our brains do everything in its power to keep our worldview in tact, and if she didn't put blame on where she did in the church and her family she would have begun the phsycological nightmare of having her current views melt upon the floor of reality. Also there are very real consequences for speaking up against the mormon church and leaders. She could lose her ability to go to school or keep her credits, her dad coyld lose his job, she could lose her fiance... and even saying what she has about her recent experience wirh sexual predators and protections from the mormon church can lead to similar consequences. Shes YOUNG. Shes still healing and processing trauma. Her words are as honest as she can be and such a valuable perspective that will change peoples lives. I'm incredibly proud of how courageous she has been. I recommend the 4 hour long Mormons Stories Podcast episode where women (including Lori Valows cousin) talk about the book, mormonism, and healing from this cult.
As a active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I have a few thoughts. Criminal action should have been taken against the person who abused Sheri. The Church Handbook clearly states, "Church leaders and members should fulfill all legal obligations to report abuse to civil authorities. No Church leader should ever dismiss a report of abuse or counsel a member not to report criminal activity." On a following page regarding treatment of victims of abuse it also states Bishops and church leaders are to "Believe their experience... Recognize victims’ personal beliefs about their worth and worthiness and Reassure victims that the abuse was not their fault." Taking away a temple recommend is usually reserved for when a member has confessed a serious sin, their behavior is considered not worthy. Taking away a recommend should NOT be used when someone has been a victim of abuse. Taking away Shari's temple recommend as a result of being a victim of abuse is not in line with church doctrine.
I’m active too and I agree with you. But honestly this happens all the time. If you are open at all look up all the cases of sexual abuse the church keeps quiet. The help line the bishops are told to call is a legal line where the church’s attorneys advise bishops NOT to call the police when an abuser confesses. I personally think active members need to be more aware that we are in a church that covers up abuse instead of doing the harder, good thing.
@hatchhouseadventures this is true, I do think there unfortunately are more cases where the hotline called and given priority over reporting to the authorities
It IS doctrinal, though 😬 th-cam.com/video/mXR4XiA5eoc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=SmdVdNmpr8R-2yiO *note that every talk given over the pulpit at conference is considered cannon. Every single talk has to get approved by the 1st Presidency of the church, including the Prophet. That’s why they preach D&C 1:37-38.. “Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.” Or quotes like “When the Prophet speaks, the debate is over.” - President N. Eldon Tanner. Or “It is wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true..” - Elder Oaks, on camera, in the PBS documentary on the church. The church has a serious problem with abuse, abuse cover up, and shaming and silencing victims. It’s pervasive and devastating to those affected.
@Electrosocket44 respectfully, I disagree. Yes we believe those called to the positions are called of God. But at the end of the day everyone has their agency. I believe that either her bishop at the time did not know the church's stance, or ignored it. If it is the latter case he disobeyed the guidelines of his calling and will be held accountable for that. At the end of the day the church is made up of imperfect people and therefore criticism will happen. I am not going to get in trouble for saying her bishop at the time was way in the wrong.
Please remember that the LDS Church is a global religion with over a billion members. All with local leaders who, for the most part, handle individual situations the best they can. And they absolutely drop the ball from time to time despite this effort because they are human. And occasionally they are just not good people because every group of people has bad apples. I was bothered by how Sharis situation was handled too, but this wasn't a problem with "the church". It was a local problem where an individual problem wasn't handled well. Shari didn't leave because she has faith in the entire religion and its core beliefs. I know it is hard to understand for someone who isn't lds. I completely get it. I'll try to explain with an analogy. (for lack of a better comparison), it's kind of like a restaurant chain that is all over the world. It has central management with global values and rules that are taught/implemented by local employees. And you love this restaurant and go often to different franchises of it all over the world. And over and over you have good experiences. But then all of a sudden a waiter is slow or a manager is rude. Do you declare right there to boycott the entire industry and never eat there again? Probably not. You would complain about the local management and the higher up leaders would hopefully get involved to solve the issue. And maybe you would never eat there specifically again. But why would you completely stop going completely when you love their food and have had countless good experiences other places? It's a lame comparison. My faith is definitely not a restaurant, lol. But hopefully you get better how it's organized and run. And why shari didn't completely lose faith in the entire lds church because of how a couple local men handled her situation. And i think people falsely envision these local men as experts in the religion who have had extensive training on pastoring. When in reality the role is an unpaid position that is rotated every five years to people within the congregation. So yes, they do their best, but mistakes are made from time to time. Especially in very difficult situations that might be unfamiliar to the leader. I encourage you to look up "callings" in the lds church and how it all works because it's hard to explain in one comment.
Understand the "one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch" perspective. However, wasn't the church referring parishioners to Jody H. and taking her word on family separations, etc.? Seems like they should not have backed and promoted her without vetting her better. More oversight, after she got a suspension, in particular, was warranted. Problem: all of the congregants are taught such high degrees of obedience and not to question. Leaves those in power and authority with broad latitude to abuse that power and authority. I recall years ago reading about a gynecologist who was sexually abusing his Mormon patients. He got away with it for a long time because the women were taught extreme modesty and a high degree of deference to authority.
I am fascinated that Shari continues to be a practicing Mormon. I am so worried that the minute Ruby is released Kevin will return to her and the family cycle will continue .
She’s only 21, and most of her life, her faith was the thing that comforted her in the face of horrendous abuse. It should be expected that she would still be a practicing believer. Whether that remains true is a private matter for her alone, and it’s something that has HUGE personal ramifications. Leaving Mormonism is REALLY challenging and painful.
@ so weird that you wrote this comment after blasting me for writing almost the SAME exact thing. Even judged me to be a Mormon for my comment regarding why she might have stayed Which I am NOT.
Have you ever been in a narcissistic relationship? While I agree, it would’ve been great if the father did more, unless you were in his position with decades of manipulation from a church and then a wife and then his wife and her lover you have no idea how beaten down his psych might have been 🙏❤️
@ yes I totally agree with you. Our children should always come first. But unless you have been in a narcissistic relationship, it is hard to see how it affects your ability to stand up for yourself and your children.
If you have listened to the St. George, UT police, you will see that Jodi and Ruby really messed with Kevin’s head. That was true, and at the same time he was way too passive. I think that it is better for Shari to be able to be able to forgive him; she is not able to forgive her mother at this point. I am glad that Ruby is in prison, and it is easy for Shari to be no contact with her.
decontrustion takes times. she is soooo young, she may wake up in 3 or 5 years and realize that being "passive" is also abusive, and her father WAS abusive because of his passivity, neglect IS abuse. And faith is such a deeply personal journey, I think as she grows and gets older, she will realize that there ARE churches that don't do the things the LDS do. That you can be a Christian and worship without being hateful and there are churches who hold values where they protect innocent children, instead of further victimizing them. they are out there! but who knows maybe she will disavow religion all together, a lot of people choose that path. she is holding on to what she knows, this is solid ground for her in a world that is spinning out of control, but I think she will come to realize these things in time.
I do think that the religious/cult-y aspect of his growing up and the embedding of Jodi into their lives has to be taken into consideration. I think he was willing to do anything to please/save his marriage instead of doing anything for his kids.
I suspect that Kevin has created his dialogue to seek forgiveness. Ruby’s family (sisters) have continued with blogging their young families and still make excuses for Ruby. I read a report where Shari took her middle sister’s into her care, after Ruby was arrested,remember she is a young woman, The girls ran away, ditched school and wouldn’t listen to her, she had support from health professionals and in the end she got tired calling the police. The girls were taken into state care and have had difficulty moving on from Ruby beliefs and teachings.
I like your takes, especially about Kevin. It seems Shari is very mature for her age but her perspective on her dad might shift as she ages. It's easier to define and then distance from an abusive parent because the behavior is so overt and objectively wrong and criminal. But the neglectful parent is just as (if not more) damaging to a child but it can take longer for those neglected to put the pieces together. When they do, it's a painful experience.
I understand your point with Kevin, but I think he is someone that can be rehabilitated with lots of therapy. Their church has a level of control of their followers that set them up for utter failure. I really enjoyed the book and don’t hold it against her for the fact she is wanting to reconcile with her father.
Shari will probably go to deconstruct that faith as she gets older. Right now she probably needs the church community and she is fresh out of trauma. She will realize how the church affected her later and start to deconstruct and follow in the footsteps of many of us ex mormons. I'll buy the book to financially support Shari in a tiny way.
I think in the cultural context of the LDS faith and also Kevin’s employment position leaves him vulnerable to putting up with a lot without questioning it. The gender roles in the church leave the man in the position of provider, Jodi weaponised sexual shame which the church also uses to exert control over him. In order for Kevin to question his faith would be difficult because his marriage, family life, and even work is dependent on it. He worked at BYU which requires him to have a temple recommend to maintain employment. High demand religions expect people to not question and that skill doesn’t end up just applying to religion. I think he genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing by feeling like he was immoral and therefore he shouldn’t be around his children based on other male victims stories of Jodi. I think he went through mental gymnastics for his world view to not fall apart. However, he did fail as a parent. I think Shari is trying to preserve the shards of her family and that while he did fail, he doesn’t seem to be an inherently immoral person like Ruby and Jodi.
Here’s some thing I don’t understand. Maybe it’s because I am a man although growing up with three sisters I’d like to think I am not exactly a meathead. But in all the time she was not recommended for Temp and they were trying to figure out about the other guy in the world would not save those messages. Phone calls of him driving up and down her block… like I don’t get when people do that or don’t do that.. “ oh my God they’re not gonna believe me, but I’m not gonna show them all this proof that they would not be able to deny” again I also don’t understand why somebody stays in an abusive relationship when they’re surrounded by loving family that has rescued them more than once… you hear it so often it drives me insane
I think you’d have a very hard time proving criminal neglect. He was obviously warped and manipulated so badly by Ruby and Jodi that he was just a shell of a man. He’s never going to be charged with anything. It’s better to hope that he continues to get genuine therapy to heal, and training for how to be a good dad.
There is a level of accountability with Kevin- absolutely. Jodi may have threatened him with his job at Brigham Young University. She has a history of getting students kicked out for her accusations of violations of the honor code there. Please read up on what she did to Adam Paul Steed and how she lost her license for a period of time because of her actions. There is so much more that we don't know about, however, I think their religious beliefs played a huge role in this as well.
Ruby and Kevin should both be in prison AND have parental rights severed. He abandoned his children to vicious sociopaths. There is no excuse for that. If he's an "abused" spouse, he has the responsibility to put his big boy pants on and get himself and his children out of there. He is a coward and hypocrite. He was fine with the situation when the $$ was rolling in. When things got rough, he ran like rat in the subway, thinking only of himself.
Here's another example of why Kevin is a piece of garbage. When kids are in state custody Kevin is responsible for child support and medical costs/insurance based on income, they go back a few yrs to make sure he's not intentionally under employed. Kevin filled to sue Jodi for everything the state has ordered him to pay. Sure he said it's on the behalf of the kids but he listed himself as a victim and referred to Ruby as one too but not as a benefiting party. There is a reason why in over a year he didn't have one of the younger kids back in his custody(not sure if he has any now). Thankfully the courts are very familiar with this type of behavior and are holding him accountable the best they can.
2:37:52 it’s a pain response!! Just because he’s not a medical doctor doesn’t mean he can’t testify to this. It’s so funny listening to you two! 2:43:06 This attorney is horrible, he’s not even letting the witness answer! He asks a question and then interrupts him !! It’s horrible
I think that Kevin has a fair amount to take responsibility for, he watched Ruby abuse those kids during the 8 passengers period of her career (before Jodi). You are right he abdicated his duties as a father. I do think that he was in abusive relationship but he had the means to get out and protect his children unlike many other spouses in abusive relationships. He is not a good father.
I completely agree! As a parent, our first priority should always be to protect our babies.
100 percent Kevin is responsible for allowing ruby to abuse those children through the years
I agree. He is both a victim and a participant in this. But he is still a victim.
However the way Shari speaks about him and the sort of hand waving his responsibility feels very Mormon coded to me. Similar to how Shari's abuser was protected, so is Kevin. Men will always be protected in Mormonism.
Agree his loyalty was not to his kids but his Mormon beliefs and religion and his crazy wife.
The problem is that the culture of Mormonism makes things worst. I know this because I grew up in it. The hypocrisy that exists within this dynamic don’t help their case because it has happened in my family. Not at the same situation but kind of similar.
Absolutely, 💯, YES to everything you said about her dad. Abandoning his kids was a cowardly, scarring, awful tragedy and he is so lucky that he has remained in Shari’s good graces.
He’s the typical dad in many ways.
@@J-Dune Uh, no. There are plenty of fathers, and I dare say the majority of them, who wouldn't abandon their kids to a partner whom they know is abusive.
@@J-Dune Nope.
The video of Kevin after recently being reunited with his daughter and accompanied by police. Kevin tries to get her arrested for taking a laptop from the house. Those kids can’t catch a break. They go from Ruby to this father that got a pass for the years of abuse.
That is bc he was still under Ruby’s and Hilderbrandt thumb and was believing them. Once he found out about his two youngest he dropped all that.
Kevin was part of behaviors that looked a lot like abuse way before Jodie came into their lives. Those poor kids were not all fine and dandy before Ruby meet Jodie.
@@lori1508no the police had already told him by that time
Kevin needs to be held accountable. He failed as a husband and most of all, as a father. What a shameful excuse for a man.
I had a very similar situation growing up and thought my mom was the angel who was a victim too, it took me a long time, well into my 30’s to get angry with her for not rescuing us. It was once I had kids that I could look at the situation more clearly. It will take Shari sometime to get there. It took hard honest conversations to make things right between my mom and I.
This. In her 30s, she may come to terms with what her father didn’t actually do. I truly think your 30s are the first time in your life when you can look back clearly and see your childhood from a different perspective
Came here to say just that. Well said
Yeah, but I understand her. It's hard enough losing a parent in your own eyes that you try to spin the story as needed to save the other
I'm at 3:49 and I have to say EXACTLY! As a kid of an abusive mother and a father that let it happen, I completely understand the desire to tether to someone, anyone. Our animal brain tells us our parents equate safety. But he abused those kids as much as their mother did.
My Dad also. He was patriarchal and the kids were her job. She was a terror and even roped him in to the abuse just to keep her happy with him. We had no one to help us. My youngest brother to this day has NOTHING to do with her. He's 46. A lot has changed. She became a human being when the grandkids came around, he just has no interest in forgiveness. He's at peace with just not engaging anymore, he left the minute he graduated high school and never looked back.
As an ex-Mormon I feel your frustration how the family doesnt seem to see how the church was a big part of the problem.
Mormon church? Does she stayed in mormon church?
I'm an ex Mormon.
I recognise a lot of this behaviour in many Mormon.
I’m an exMormon too and felt the same. I can understand though how the church could be the one stable thing in her life right now.
One thing she wrote near the end was that she no longer trusts church leaders to speak for God, and she now will always prioritize her own spiritual judgement. That’s HUGE and IMO it’s difficult to stay a “typical” Mormon with that mindset.
She is still at BYU so if she has experienced a faith transition she wouldn’t be able to speak openly about it, because they could kick her out and withhold her credits. I believe she graduates later this year and is planning to go to law school and I wish her all the best!
I never expected an apology from my abusive mother. She drank so much that she often could not recall what she had done. When I finally realized how much damage she.
done and continued to do I just walked away. I did not speak to her for the last 15 years of her life.
That was the right decision for me and I have no regrets about closing the door on her.
My comment on the book is that it seemed honest and well written. I liked how she kept it to her story while mentioning her siblings but not by name. That struck me. How she was able to discuss the family dynamic but in a way of the effects it had on her and her own development. She left their story almost for them to share if they chose too, she seemed protective of them as children unlike her parents who were exploiting cc and cruel to all of them. It surprised me how forgiving she seemed of her father Kevin. It would be interesting to hear an honest accounting of things from his perspective as well as I struggle to understand how he stood by and allowed Ruby to do these things to her children for years. Even long before Jody came along. This book for me was a reaffirmation of the feeling I have that evil hides in many churches and religions, l Great book well written lots of honesty and surprises without continuing to exploit the sibling's.
The two things Kevin did that stood out to me, was 1) he defended Ruby when their audience called out the abuse and 2) when Ruby was arrested and he was sitting across from the investigators, his immediate reaction was to show far more concern for Ruby than for his injured children.
Yes. Good clarification.
I was hoping they cut the part out of the video when he asked about his kids, because I never heard it. My heart hurts for those kids.
@@janwilliams3841 He didn't initially believe Ruby would hurt their kids. The investigator said the kids were found in bad shape, but that seemed to go right over his head. He was asking more questions about whether Ruby was okay.
He was brainwashed, beaten down and demoralized. From the video you can tell he is a shell of a person. Have you gone through that kind of trauma to understand the strength it must take to pull yourself from the depth of pain and stand up to your abuser, so you can then be a good Dad?
@@straightouttaNZ He was already defending the heinous things Ruby was doing long before they met Jodi.
I think she did such a great job on the book! I wish her and her family healing and peace! And definitely lots of love!!
Looking forward to the chat tonight about this. I still don't know how I feel about a lot of it, but I do know the couple that she came to call mom and dad are angels for supporting her in the ways that they did. They deserve to be praised.
Yes! I cried twice in the book and one of them was over the love and support the Hammonds gave Shari. What wonderful people.
From watching Mormon Stories, I’ve noticed a lot of people leave when they have children. It’s different when they see the effects of the teachings on their child. I’m a former fundamentalist Christian and I think most churches have some toxic teachings. However, the LDS is a high demand religion that shapes people’s identities and relationships. It’s very difficult to leave.
THIS IS SO REAL 🙌
As a child abuse survivor and an Adult abuse survivor there was nothing my ex could do ( and he tried everything ) to get me to give up custody of our children to him. I fought with every ounce of strength I had to keep them and have them and help them grow into healthy, functioning, loved adults. So like many I cant understand how he just gave up his children. It angers me.
Please look into Adam Paul Steed’s story regarding Jody. He is the one who sued her and her reprimanded by the licensing board. She used strict religious ideology to manipulate his family in a similar way.
Thank you so much for covering this and giving your input. It’s given me a bit of insight on my own healing journey. “It causes psychological distress” & “it never works out trying to get that apology and full understanding of the damage they’ve done”. Time to let go 🤷♀️ Appreciate u!
I read the book. It was so good. She was so respectful to all involved
When fathers tried to stand up for themselves, Jody had the father’s be accused of SA ing the children. It’s possible that he was scared of being accused of that or had already been accused of that and was so embarrassed that he just left.
I agree; he was shamed and silenced
I came out of a quiverfull ish cult... i left at 18.. but it has taken me decades to fully unpeel that onion of religion.. where she is now, isnt where she is likely to be in a couple of decades
agreed! she is so young, she has a lot of growing to do, deconstrustion takes a lot of time and reflection.
I have always asked myself why a person with so much education like her father gets brainwashed in this kind of cults. Then, I found the Adam Paul Steed’s story in which Jody H. is also involved and the Lori Vallow’s case in which the Vision of Glory book is presented as well, and I concluded that the Mormon Church has a mayor problem with cult.
Shari has integrity which stands in contrast to her parents.
I not only was denied an apology, i somehow got blamed for what was done to me. So i understand your point, and i continue with therapy, which is quite helpful.
Me too, continues to this day. My dad did nothing.
I have read the book and exactly agree with everything you said. I wonder if she will feel differently about her father once she has children.
Thank you for talking about Kevin’s role - rarely here comments on his role. He is definitely culpable in this. Also, discussing the importance of a father to children. I have no compassion for him either.
Shari has lost so much, I think the idea of seeing Kevin’s failure and the failure of LDS is probably too much to let go of right now. Time will tell as she processes this more.
I wish her all the best. ❤
It is a man’s main responsibility to protect his kids. This guy did not. Regardless of why he did it, he is not a good dad.
I think Shari did feel genuinely loved by her father, despite Kevin failing his children as a father. On the contrary, she mentioned in the book that she never felt loved by her mother, but rather feared her.
There’s a term “protecting the good name of the church” that members know…to the ends…to a horrific, abusive fault.
There is so much swept under the rug there.
As a life long member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I have never heard this term.
@ Lucky you
I agree with you about wanting apologies or giving forgiveness. I realised my family is never will never apologise for the trauma I went through and I dont need to forgive them to be happy. We only need to learn how to live with trauma so that it doesnt overwhelm us, doesnt hold us back, that we can accept it happened, changed us, but we dont let it stop us from being happy now and in the future.
In my experience, passive people are perceived as kind and patient as they are non confrontational. I had a very passive father and had idealized him because compared to my mother, he was the perfect parent. But once I had children of my own, I had to admit that my father failed in standing up for us and taking us away from the constant toxicity that was caused by my mother. I had to be honest about his shortcomings and wonder why he couldn’t or wouldn’t take a stand.
But again, just like Shari perceived her father to be more patient, more listening and kind, I get the need to want to keep that relationship there and move past the shortcomings. When I read her book, I feel like she could honestly perceive the complex nature of her father and yet appreciate the way that he has been attempting to change his behaviour after the veil of the cult was lifted from his eyes.
I have to wonder that when the dust has settled and Shari has her own children, she might come to a similar conclusion. For now, she needs her father and I get this.
I watched the police interview with Kevin and what stood out to me is that he never once asked about his children. His only concern seemed to be Ruby.
For over 20yrs my Aunt has done specialized foster care for kids who've experienced serious trauma. Kevin's relationship with Shari has a direct effect on his chances of reunionification with the younger 4 kids. Add in the older girls weren't placed back with him in the first 3mo's is a GIANT red flag, then you go a year, and that tells you Kevin isn't following court orders. We believe Kevin is manipulating or guilting Shari and Chad in order to get the kids back. I don't want to write 5 paragraphs on what Kevin has done and how it hinders getting the kids back or how the cases normally go in family court but seriously this is bad.
Kevin already has the kids. It hasn't been announced publicly but that is where they are. The 2 younger kids seem to be doing good.
@RebekahWhyte Where and when was this announcement? Oct 24 is when Kevin said publicly the kids are all still in care of the state, the case is still listed as active and on going. The older brother Chad talked about the kids coming for the holidays; that is a regularly scheduled visitation not reunionification.
@@RebekahWhytethe kids are still in foster care
I agree 100% with your assessment of the Franke family dynamic. I do see Sherry seeing her dad as the safe parent. He was not actively involved in the abuse. He just sat back and allowed it to happen. Which to me is as bad. She may one day come to realize how bad her dad’s reaction and inaction was. It is so horrific what parents do to children with impunity
Thank you for speaking your mind about Kevin! I completely agree!
Agreed! The book was fantastic. Very well written…the description takes you there. ❤
The LDS church continued to refer congregants to Jodi even after her losing her license. There is a good and enlightening discussion about this on Mormon Stories Podcast.
I think in order to understand Kevin (not to excuse him, but to understand) you need to hear Adam Paul Steed's story
I completely agree everything about Kevin. Thank you for covering this book!
I agree with you about the father. He said in a police interview that his only responsibility was to pay the bills.
The way the lds churches works is by layers of authority. You are taught from the very beginning with children’s songs and hymns sung by the whole congregation together that you will go where the prophet or the bishop or whoever is your leader, you will go where they want you to go, say what they want you to say, do what they want you to do. None of these people showed up as whole healthy people before they made this family. They showed up brainwashed, abused, and more full of resolve to follow their leaders than ever. It’s all incredibly tragic, and it’s no coincidence they were lds.
I am not sure if the interview is still on TH-cam but if it is you should listen to the interview with Adam Stead on Mormon Stories about his interactions with Jodie, It may give some insight into Kevin's actions. Having said that I still agree he abdicated his duties
Overtime I expect that Sherry will move on and realize the way that her father and her church and others in her family betrayed her and didn’t take care of her, but sometimes you have to weed those out slowly because you need something just anything to rely on so that you aren’t bereft.
David - I am not going to watch this until I finish the book but I want to say - What an impressive author. She really has an amazing ability to share her story. I only know surface level of the channel, never watched....so I am going into it not knowing much. I can't put it down. I will find out if you feel the same tomorrow ha ha.
It’s that Kody Brown/ Mormon culture parenting view of fatherhood that the childcare is solely the mom’s domain.
I think it’s hard to lose both parents. I understand Shari’s desire to keep her father in her life
I agree with you, saying sorry doesn't mean anything. She's better off working on creating good memories for herself and her future and a better strategy to heal. If her mother is not on the same page as her, it's pointless to try. I'm not saying an apology doesn't work. It only works for some, and it usually would work for serial offenders who try overtime to get better.
Kevin seems weak to me and was manipulated by Ruby and Jody. He should never have left the home. He has been as responsible for the abuse of the children as Ruby. He should be punished as well. I hope those kids are doing better, and are never
returned to their parents.
I agree with your assessment of Kevin ... and Shari's view of her father now. So much of this abuse was BEFORE Jodie, though Jodie to it to a new level of evil!!
They needed evidence of the guy taking advantage of Shari in order to punish him. They couldn’t punish him without evidence-all they had was her word. At the end of the book it sounded like the church was punishing him, so there was a happy ending there. So either he finally confessed or Shari showed evidence of his wrong doing. It’s for sure a difficult position. Repentance is also a personal matter, so the best they could do is help Shari come to peace with the horrible situation. And it sounded like her second bishop did a better job with that.
Shari realized that the leaders of the church are just imperfect men, and the only relationship she could rely on is her relationship with god. She must have been able to see the doctrine of the church clearly, and connect with it-despite those around her distorting it. I was honestly amazed with her strong relationship with god-it was a life line she needed through the horrible trauma she suffered.
I just wanted to add that bishops are random men called to the position. They are not paid, and they are mostly not psychologists. I say mostly because there might be a few that are professionally psychologists in their normal life. But they are just husbands and fathers, so most don’t know the best ways to go about trauma like this. I really wish they would be trained to know what to do or at least refer trauma victims to people that know how to address such matters. But I think that’s why she was able to forgive them because they are just men volunteering their time.
💯 in agreement with you on your assessment of the dad.
I think people are missing the part gender roles play here. Kevin is getting more blame because cultural norms expect men to be the protector and Kevin failed big time here. Yet it also sounds like he had some traits of learned helplessness that can be present in abusive relationships….no matter what he did Ruby would still do the things she did. We don't know how abusive Ruby was to Kevin. I'm not absolving him of any blame, just trying to offer a perspective that gender in family violence and cultural norms might play in understanding Kevin's lack of action in preventing the abuse by Ruby towards the children and the level of blame by the public he is getting.
Shari is still a student at BYU, which means she can’t speak openly about her current beliefs if they’ve changed. Students who leave the church or disavow the faith get kicked out of the university, and often they’re not allowed to take their transcript to transfer somewhere else. She has said she’s planning on going to law school and graduates soon, so that’s a very good reason not to reveal too much. Or maybe not, maybe she’s still 100% on board with Mormonism. Some of the things she wrote though made me think maybe she’s not.
I loved the book and appreciate your analysis!
This is what the church teaches, “As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become”.
Keep reading about this church doctrine as if you wish to join. Then read more stories and try TH-cam testimonials of so many members. I’m married to a victim of this “church” for 50 years.
This is just a mild story in my eyes. She lived and she can see. If not? She could not, she would not have written her story.
Good review of book. Pls keep reading. You live near the church in Colorado. I lived in Evanston Wyo. I am not LDS. I feel free, yet I do not worship in a church. I’m allowed to decide that my worship of God and me sharing my belief is the way I live the way I treat others. I do my best to follow God. It is shown in my actions.
They are bound, cradle to grave, and beyond. What church has already baptized
all the dead ppl on Earth so they can decide after they are dead to embrace this church. Once joined? You cannot change your mind. There is no way out of pure hell. So don’t even read about what others believe.
I cannot go on. Secrets, secrets,secrets.
Agreed
One thing you have to remember when it comes to her not leaving LDS is they are taught that their church is the "only true church". It isn't like *most* Christian denominations where they believe that the only way is through Jesus, but they can attend different churches/denominations. In her eyes there is no other way no matter how awful the denomination may have been towards her. It's really heartbreaking because that leads to people accepting the abuse, no one being held accountable, and to a distorted belief about God and who He is.
One thing is how a therapist sees what is going on. Yes, it may be kind of objective. Still, we all have needs for close relations and we tend to idealize them.
Would love to see you react to Ruby's sister, Bonnie's video responding to the book
I believe Shari is on her way out of the LDS church. She's only 21 years old! Right now trying to rebuild her life, leaving the church will just cause way more trauma. I don't think she's ready for it, but she will be soon enough.
Can’t wait to watch the book club on Shrink Wrapped!
7pm on Shrink Wrapped
I think Kevin was checked out right from the beginning. In the early days he was never around and quite clearly Ruby was floundering and unable to cope on her own.
My mom wasn’t in my life as much as I would’ve liked. I asked her why I lived w dad and not her, she said he could give me
The life/stability I deserve. That’s fine and I get it but I wondered why she didn’t try to improve herself/situation so we could live together/be closer. Oh that’s bc she never found fulfillment in motherhood like I have. Her loss. You’re right, the answers don’t help but they help. I know where she stands. Alone.
Shari is what we used to call a "resilient child." These kids manage to triumph over horrendous childhoods, where you'd expect them to spiral into alcohol & drug abuse - or worse.
You have got to watch Mormon Stories Podcast.
I love Mormon Stories as a never-Mo. They add so much cultural context to cases like this and I learn so much from their episodes.
Agree. I’m a never mo, but the stories are fascinating. The LDS teachings breed the toxicity and abuse, at a higher level than most mainstream religions. It’s a high demand religion that affects so much of their lives and relationships, it’s difficult to leave. Most of their identity is being LDS.
Agree!
I love Cults to Consciousness myself (the host Shalise is an ex-mo), but Mormon Stories is pretty decent as well.
So, you think if a woman is passive and doesn’t stick up is ok (not in this situation of course). ie if Wife or woman stay in an abusive relationship. I don’t agree with your statement about not giving the dad that same right.
I think it depends on where the abuse is directed. Seemingly, Ruby's violence was reserved for the children. If he were contending with abuse himself and couldn't or didn't know how to get himself and his children safe, that's one thing.
If the situation is a woman knows her husband is abusing her children but that woman centres the man anyway then that woman is culpable. Think about relationships where the stepdad is assaulting the daughter but the woman ignores her daughter because he gives the mother attention or pays the bills. People have nothing but contempt for that woman. It's the same situation here.
The reason I say that is he was passive well before Jodi came on the scene. He is a victim in relation to Jodi but not Ruby. He enabled and participated in Ruby's emotional abuse at the very least. It was documented by them on their TH-cam channel.
I can’t find the full reaction on Shrink Wrapped. Will someone link it for me?
I actually believe Shari is and always has been more of a balanced and a more rounded individual adult than both her parents. I don’t think she’s quite ready to address her father’s culpability as yet. ❤️from Australia 🇦🇺.
As an ex-Mormon myself this book to me was another eye opening and also an another affirmation that my feelings and experiences are valid.
About Kevin Frankie and his actions or lack there of keep in mind what Ruby and Jodie were manipulating was the fact that his self sexual satisfaction is adjacent to murder. Not giving him a pass but guilt like that is so powerful Having been indoctrinated myself, as well as, carrying the type of guilt for so many years it’s unbearable.
Now on the outside looking back in it’s hard to explain to others just how much guilt one carriers for something so harmless as self pleasing. Then on top of it you gave you church leaders telling you that your actions puts you next to someone who’s murdered. To then have a therapist and counseling groups / peers I don’t think I’d lasted as long as Kevin.
He failed as a father period. No excuses. He should have been charged with neglect!
I have nothing favorable to say about Kevin. He pisses me off. If ever a time will come for Sheri to fully understand the depth of her father's neglect will be when she has children of her own.
I'm also going to push back on a statement made previously by Allison about morality and people no longer joining churches. Churches and "faith based groups" are consistently a part of the problem. Maybe review the book Losing Moses on the Freeway: The 10 Commandments in America by Chis Hedges.
Reminder that Kevin wanted to press charges for robbery on Shari when the police let her in Ruby's home to pick up her siblings things from the house that HE WASN'T LIVING IN when the kids got placed with her to foster.
3:15 I completely agree!! Kevin is just as bad as Ruby, maybe worse since he stood by and watched it occur! Sick individual human!!
"He allowed his kids to be abused..." And that in and of itself is against the law in Utah, specifically stated. I still don't know why he's not in jail. And I worry about the kids- all of them- who will continue to have a relationship with him. I think all on his own, he's a dangerous person. It's okay if the kids as adults want to have a relationship with him as long as they realize that he is abusive (and in my opinion very manipulative) also.
I agree that it makes zero sense for the LDS Church to victim blame Shari and keep her from being able to participate in the Temple. However, as an Ex-Mormon myself I feel that I have to point out a very common misconception. The Temple is not the normal meeting place for the LDS Church, the place where they go every Sunday called a Chapel. Not going to the Temple doesn't cut you off from your community, it's a place that most Mormons VERY rarely ever go to in order to do very specific rituals. In fact, Shari probably will only do the Temple Ordinances for the first time when she gets married. Consdiering she didn't go on a mission, she almost certainly hasn't been through the Temple yet at all.
Also, I don't think people should judge Shari for remaining in the church. Indoctrination is extremely hard to come out of and it is often a slow and painful process to leave a high demand religion. I didn't believe in Mormonism anymore since the time I was 16, but I remained in the church (and even went to an LDS college) until I was 25, mainly for extremely complicated community and family reasons.
I have a big problem with LDS beliefs and I’ll say that with my entire chest.
I totally agree about Kevin. How did he not have his own brain to make any decisions. The only thing I can think of was that he was threatened that he was sexually abusing his kids.
Of course, Sherry will be doing everything to keep at least one parent "good" in her mind. If she can place all the blame on her mom, she gets to keep her dad.
Just as she does as much mental gymnastics to try and keep her faith. Our brains do everything in its power to keep our worldview in tact, and if she didn't put blame on where she did in the church and her family she would have begun the phsycological nightmare of having her current views melt upon the floor of reality.
Also there are very real consequences for speaking up against the mormon church and leaders. She could lose her ability to go to school or keep her credits, her dad coyld lose his job, she could lose her fiance... and even saying what she has about her recent experience wirh sexual predators and protections from the mormon church can lead to similar consequences.
Shes YOUNG. Shes still healing and processing trauma. Her words are as honest as she can be and such a valuable perspective that will change peoples lives. I'm incredibly proud of how courageous she has been.
I recommend the 4 hour long Mormons Stories Podcast episode where women (including Lori Valows cousin) talk about the book, mormonism, and healing from this cult.
I prefer to think of Sheri as a resilient survivor who did not reveal the path that she and her father had to take to get back a relationship.
I think people need to be saying Acceptance is more important than forgiving your perpetrator.
Correction: Kevin’s interview with the police after Ruby’s arrest.
As a active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I have a few thoughts. Criminal action should have been taken against the person who abused Sheri. The Church Handbook clearly states, "Church leaders and members should fulfill all legal obligations to report abuse to civil authorities. No Church leader should ever dismiss a report of abuse or counsel a member not to report criminal activity." On a following page regarding treatment of victims of abuse it also states Bishops and church leaders are to "Believe their experience... Recognize victims’ personal beliefs about their worth and worthiness and Reassure victims that the abuse was not their fault." Taking away a temple recommend is usually reserved for when a member has confessed a serious sin, their behavior is considered not worthy. Taking away a recommend should NOT be used when someone has been a victim of abuse.
Taking away Shari's temple recommend as a result of being a victim of abuse is not in line with church doctrine.
I’m active too and I agree with you. But honestly this happens all the time. If you are open at all look up all the cases of sexual abuse the church keeps quiet. The help line the bishops are told to call is a legal line where the church’s attorneys advise bishops NOT to call the police when an abuser confesses.
I personally think active members need to be more aware that we are in a church that covers up abuse instead of doing the harder, good thing.
@hatchhouseadventures this is true, I do think there unfortunately are more cases where the hotline called and given priority over reporting to the authorities
It IS doctrinal, though 😬
th-cam.com/video/mXR4XiA5eoc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=SmdVdNmpr8R-2yiO
*note that every talk given over the pulpit at conference is considered cannon. Every single talk has to get approved by the 1st Presidency of the church, including the Prophet. That’s why they preach D&C 1:37-38..
“Whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.”
Or quotes like
“When the Prophet speaks, the debate is over.” - President N. Eldon Tanner.
Or “It is wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true..” - Elder Oaks, on camera, in the PBS documentary on the church.
The church has a serious problem with abuse, abuse cover up, and shaming and silencing victims. It’s pervasive and devastating to those affected.
@Electrosocket44 respectfully, I disagree. Yes we believe those called to the positions are called of God. But at the end of the day everyone has their agency. I believe that either her bishop at the time did not know the church's stance, or ignored it. If it is the latter case he disobeyed the guidelines of his calling and will be held accountable for that.
At the end of the day the church is made up of imperfect people and therefore criticism will happen.
I am not going to get in trouble for saying her bishop at the time was way in the wrong.
Please remember that the LDS Church is a global religion with over a billion members. All with local leaders who, for the most part, handle individual situations the best they can. And they absolutely drop the ball from time to time despite this effort because they are human. And occasionally they are just not good people because every group of people has bad apples.
I was bothered by how Sharis situation was handled too, but this wasn't a problem with "the church". It was a local problem where an individual problem wasn't handled well. Shari didn't leave because she has faith in the entire religion and its core beliefs. I know it is hard to understand for someone who isn't lds. I completely get it. I'll try to explain with an analogy. (for lack of a better comparison), it's kind of like a restaurant chain that is all over the world. It has central management with global values and rules that are taught/implemented by local employees. And you love this restaurant and go often to different franchises of it all over the world. And over and over you have good experiences. But then all of a sudden a waiter is slow or a manager is rude. Do you declare right there to boycott the entire industry and never eat there again? Probably not. You would complain about the local management and the higher up leaders would hopefully get involved to solve the issue. And maybe you would never eat there specifically again. But why would you completely stop going completely when you love their food and have had countless good experiences other places?
It's a lame comparison. My faith is definitely not a restaurant, lol. But hopefully you get better how it's organized and run. And why shari didn't completely lose faith in the entire lds church because of how a couple local men handled her situation.
And i think people falsely envision these local men as experts in the religion who have had extensive training on pastoring. When in reality the role is an unpaid position that is rotated every five years to people within the congregation. So yes, they do their best, but mistakes are made from time to time. Especially in very difficult situations that might be unfamiliar to the leader. I encourage you to look up "callings" in the lds church and how it all works because it's hard to explain in one comment.
@@lizkt absolutely!!
Understand the "one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch" perspective. However, wasn't the church referring parishioners to Jody H. and taking her word on family separations, etc.? Seems like they should not have backed and promoted her without vetting her better. More oversight, after she got a suspension, in particular, was warranted. Problem: all of the congregants are taught such high degrees of obedience and not to question. Leaves those in power and authority with broad latitude to abuse that power and authority. I recall years ago reading about a gynecologist who was sexually abusing his Mormon patients. He got away with it for a long time because the women were taught extreme modesty and a high degree of deference to authority.
I am fascinated that Shari continues to be a practicing Mormon. I am so worried that the minute Ruby is released Kevin will return to her and the family cycle will continue .
She’s only 21, and most of her life, her faith was the thing that comforted her in the face of horrendous abuse. It should be expected that she would still be a practicing believer. Whether that remains true is a private matter for her alone, and it’s something that has HUGE personal ramifications. Leaving Mormonism is REALLY challenging and painful.
@ so weird that you wrote this comment after blasting me for writing almost the SAME exact thing. Even judged me to be a Mormon for my comment regarding why she might have stayed Which I am NOT.
Have you ever been in a narcissistic relationship? While I agree, it would’ve been great if the father did more, unless you were in his position with decades of manipulation from a church and then a wife and then his wife and her lover you have no idea how beaten down his psych might have been 🙏❤️
as much as I agree that narcissists are impossible to deal with, as parents our first obligation is to our children
@ yes I totally agree with you. Our children should always come first. But unless you have been in a narcissistic relationship, it is hard to see how it affects your ability to stand up for yourself and your children.
If you have listened to the St. George, UT police, you will see that Jodi and Ruby really messed with Kevin’s head. That was true, and at the same time he was way too passive. I think that it is better for Shari to be able to be able to forgive him; she is not able to forgive her mother at this point. I am glad that Ruby is in prison, and it is easy for Shari to be no contact with her.
My feeling is Shari wrote book detailing her life soooo
so if she wants her life kept private don’t write a book. So we will discuss it all we want.
decontrustion takes times. she is soooo young, she may wake up in 3 or 5 years and realize that being "passive" is also abusive, and her father WAS abusive because of his passivity, neglect IS abuse. And faith is such a deeply personal journey, I think as she grows and gets older, she will realize that there ARE churches that don't do the things the LDS do. That you can be a Christian and worship without being hateful and there are churches who hold values where they protect innocent children, instead of further victimizing them. they are out there! but who knows maybe she will disavow religion all together, a lot of people choose that path. she is holding on to what she knows, this is solid ground for her in a world that is spinning out of control, but I think she will come to realize these things in time.
She needs a parent and to adequately assess him will leave her an orphan. It will surface as her healing continues.
I do think that the religious/cult-y aspect of his growing up and the embedding of Jodi into their lives has to be taken into consideration. I think he was willing to do anything to please/save his marriage instead of doing anything for his kids.
I suspect that Kevin has created his dialogue to seek forgiveness. Ruby’s family (sisters) have continued with blogging their young families and still make excuses for Ruby.
I read a report where Shari took her middle sister’s into her care, after Ruby was arrested,remember she is a young woman, The girls ran away, ditched school and wouldn’t listen to her, she had support from health professionals and in the end she got tired calling the police. The girls were taken into state care and have had difficulty moving on from Ruby beliefs and teachings.
David please react to these new Wendy Williams interviews
I like your takes, especially about Kevin. It seems Shari is very mature for her age but her perspective on her dad might shift as she ages. It's easier to define and then distance from an abusive parent because the behavior is so overt and objectively wrong and criminal. But the neglectful parent is just as (if not more) damaging to a child but it can take longer for those neglected to put the pieces together. When they do, it's a painful experience.
I understand your point with Kevin, but I think he is someone that can be rehabilitated with lots of therapy.
Their church has a level of control of their followers that set them up for utter failure.
I really enjoyed the book and don’t hold it against her for the fact she is wanting to reconcile with her father.
Shari will probably go to deconstruct that faith as she gets older. Right now she probably needs the church community and she is fresh out of trauma. She will realize how the church affected her later and start to deconstruct and follow in the footsteps of many of us ex mormons.
I'll buy the book to financially support Shari in a tiny way.
Kevin neglected his children, no excuse!
Please research Adam Paul Steed's story to understand how Kevin was treated.
I think in the cultural context of the LDS faith and also Kevin’s employment position leaves him vulnerable to putting up with a lot without questioning it. The gender roles in the church leave the man in the position of provider, Jodi weaponised sexual shame which the church also uses to exert control over him. In order for Kevin to question his faith would be difficult because his marriage, family life, and even work is dependent on it. He worked at BYU which requires him to have a temple recommend to maintain employment. High demand religions expect people to not question and that skill doesn’t end up just applying to religion. I think he genuinely believed that he was doing the right thing by feeling like he was immoral and therefore he shouldn’t be around his children based on other male victims stories of Jodi. I think he went through mental gymnastics for his world view to not fall apart. However, he did fail as a parent. I think Shari is trying to preserve the shards of her family and that while he did fail, he doesn’t seem to be an inherently immoral person like Ruby and Jodi.
Here’s some thing I don’t understand. Maybe it’s because I am a man although growing up with three sisters I’d like to think I am not exactly a meathead. But in all the time she was not recommended for Temp and they were trying to figure out about the other guy in the world would not save those messages. Phone calls of him driving up and down her block… like I don’t get when people do that or don’t do that.. “ oh my God they’re not gonna believe me, but I’m not gonna show them all this proof that they would not be able to deny” again I also don’t understand why somebody stays in an abusive relationship when they’re surrounded by loving family that has rescued them more than once… you hear it so often it drives me insane
When you have never been involved in a cult, you have no right to say anything about someone who was.
The father should be held responsible for the abuse. He is a neglectful guardian who abandoned all of his children.
I think you’d have a very hard time proving criminal neglect. He was obviously warped and manipulated so badly by Ruby and Jodi that he was just a shell of a man. He’s never going to be charged with anything. It’s better to hope that he continues to get genuine therapy to heal, and training for how to be a good dad.
There is a level of accountability with Kevin- absolutely. Jodi may have threatened him with his job at Brigham Young University. She has a history of getting students kicked out for her accusations of violations of the honor code there. Please read up on what she did to Adam Paul Steed and how she lost her license for a period of time because of her actions. There is so much more that we don't know about, however, I think their religious beliefs played a huge role in this as well.
Ruby and Kevin should both be in prison AND have parental rights severed. He abandoned his children to vicious sociopaths. There is no excuse for that.
If he's an "abused" spouse, he has the responsibility to put his big boy pants on and get himself and his children out of there. He is a coward and hypocrite. He was fine with the situation when the $$ was rolling in. When things got rough, he ran like rat in the subway, thinking only of himself.
Here's another example of why Kevin is a piece of garbage. When kids are in state custody Kevin is responsible for child support and medical costs/insurance based on income, they go back a few yrs to make sure he's not intentionally under employed. Kevin filled to sue Jodi for everything the state has ordered him to pay. Sure he said it's on the behalf of the kids but he listed himself as a victim and referred to Ruby as one too but not as a benefiting party. There is a reason why in over a year he didn't have one of the younger kids back in his custody(not sure if he has any now). Thankfully the courts are very familiar with this type of behavior and are holding him accountable the best they can.
People forget that 2 things can be true at once. Kevin is both a victim and has some responsibility in what happened
2:37:52 it’s a pain response!! Just because he’s not a medical doctor doesn’t mean he can’t testify to this.
It’s so funny listening to you two! 2:43:06
This attorney is horrible, he’s not even letting the witness answer! He asks a question and then interrupts him !! It’s horrible