Thank you for addressing such a tragic and delicate topic. Hopefully, we can each learn from this and become the type of people that act honorably even when/if we're faced with fear, uncertainty and threat.
One of the things I love about this podcast is your attempts to put aside your biases and be as objective as you can during these discussions. I appreciate this episode especially, tackling the most atrocious act committed by (local) leaders in this churchs history. Yet still, faith is being strengthened. Thank you for your efforts.
I have read Massacre at Mountain Meadows and can recommend it. It was excellent. Heavy, and heartbreaking, but thought-provoking and thoroughly researched and presented. I have wondered if books like this should be read by more members--then they aren't surprised by unpleasant stories from church history when they learn about them elsewhere.
This has been a struggling point throughout my life. Thank you for addressing it in a forthright way. I read Juanita Brooks' book as a young adult and have tried to reconcile church history since.
This is so sad. I’ve heard about this MMM many times, but it never gets easier to listen to or study. I hate that antis and even current progmos alike still claim that BY ordered it but I understand the sentiment. It started in Missouri when our ancestors were kicked off their lands several times, murdering our people and a prophet of God, raping our women etc., but the MMM is so sad either way. The Gospel of Christ is one of repentance and forgiveness, I wish everyone involved then and especially now understood that simple call to a spiritual truce.
I lived just a few miles from Mountain Meadows. I also had the privilege of being a surveyor that but in the new monument. Don Carlos shirts Is my 3rd great uncle. Peter shirts is my fourth great grandfather. Don Carlos was married to Lee’s daughter. Lee instructed Don Carlos to go down and get the Paiutes and bring them up. Something happened because after the massacre, Lee ordered Don Carlos to divorce his daughter. The history isn’t quite certain, but it sounds like Don Carlos did didn’t do what he was supposed to do. Also I being friends with the Paiutes tribe near St George, every single person I talk to said they were never involved. But a lot of the Saints were dressed like Paiutes. I think to find out what really happened. We need to get to the bottom of what happened between Lee and Don Carlos Shirts.
I am also a descendant, Harold B. Lee found that John had never been excommunicated, and to me that says it all. The persecution and talking behind backs definitely had a negative impact on all those who are descendants of John but has dissipated in the last decade or so.
This podcast is quoting Vengeance, almost word for word. Unfortunately, the implied conclusions that Vengeance advances is based on too many suppositions, not facts. And, Vengeance relies far too heavily on works by Penrose and Jensen, quoting various participants some 27 and 34 years after the massacre. As just one of many examples, if Barton's uncorroborated statement some 30 years after the masscare is accurate, indeed Haight regretted following Dame's order and of course regretted not following the council's decision. So why does Vengeance need to twist this around to present a supposition in order to implicate Haight? Why not address Dame's own admission or Dame's miraculous sudden bail arrangement after the Beaver "Railroad Meeting"? If Dame had simply faced questioning under oath (he was caught and jailed) rather than receiving an amazing last second bail release, then either Dame would have lied or implicated himself. Vengeance suggests that the 1858 Dame investigation aquits Dame of being responsible for the massacre, yet not one of the 13 Complaints in that investigation had anything to do with the massacre or its decision. Not one! So why would Vengeance make this kind of aquittal conclusion then follow it up by stating Haight did not "fair so well"? There was never an investigation of Haight or a list of Complaints filed against Haight by his peers. Dame's peers did not respect him hence an official 4-day investigation of him signed by his own councilors and all leading men of Parawon except for two loyalists, Martineau and Pendleton. I could go on and on. Maybe someday someone will address, one by one, all the suppositions Vengeance relies on and present only the facts. The story will then be shorter and truer. Still today, the best, most accurate, and most honest account belongs to the heroic Juanita Brooks.
Thank you for your honest work on this very, very sad subject. My only consolation is that the Atonement of Jesus Christ can heal the victims and the perpetrators as well as all of us. "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelations 7:14-17
Thank you for addressing such a tragic and delicate topic. Hopefully, we can each learn from this and become the type of people that act honorably even when/if we're faced with fear, uncertainty and threat.
One of the things I love about this podcast is your attempts to put aside your biases and be as objective as you can during these discussions. I appreciate this episode especially, tackling the most atrocious act committed by (local) leaders in this churchs history. Yet still, faith is being strengthened. Thank you for your efforts.
I have read Massacre at Mountain Meadows and can recommend it. It was excellent. Heavy, and heartbreaking, but thought-provoking and thoroughly researched and presented. I have wondered if books like this should be read by more members--then they aren't surprised by unpleasant stories from church history when they learn about them elsewhere.
Well done! This is a GREAT podcast!
Well done, thank you
This has been a struggling point throughout my life. Thank you for addressing it in a forthright way. I read Juanita Brooks' book as a young adult and have tried to reconcile church history since.
This is so sad. I’ve heard about this MMM many times, but it never gets easier to listen to or study. I hate that antis and even current progmos alike still claim that BY ordered it but I understand the sentiment. It started in Missouri when our ancestors were kicked off their lands several times, murdering our people and a prophet of God, raping our women etc., but the MMM is so sad either way. The Gospel of Christ is one of repentance and forgiveness, I wish everyone involved then and especially now understood that simple call to a spiritual truce.
I lived just a few miles from Mountain Meadows. I also had the privilege of being a surveyor that but in the new monument.
Don Carlos shirts Is my 3rd great uncle. Peter shirts is my fourth great grandfather.
Don Carlos was married to Lee’s daughter. Lee instructed Don Carlos to go down and get the Paiutes and bring them up. Something happened because after the massacre, Lee ordered Don Carlos to divorce his daughter. The history isn’t quite certain, but it sounds like Don Carlos did didn’t do what he was supposed to do. Also I being friends with the Paiutes tribe near St George, every single person I talk to said they were never involved. But a lot of the Saints were dressed like Paiutes.
I think to find out what really happened. We need to get to the bottom of what happened between Lee and Don Carlos Shirts.
Oh. That's an interesting and sad story that makes me want to speculate. I better not. Thank you for sharing it!
I'm old and take the bus. Someone on the bus spoke of this event as the way Mormons delt with people passing through Utah in the 1800s.
I’m a descendant of John D Lee. And honestly I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s the root cause of why that side of my family has so many issues
I am also a descendant, Harold B. Lee found that John had never been excommunicated, and to me that says it all. The persecution and talking behind backs definitely had a negative impact on all those who are descendants of John but has dissipated in the last decade or so.
This podcast is quoting Vengeance, almost word for word. Unfortunately, the implied conclusions that Vengeance advances is based on too many suppositions, not facts. And, Vengeance relies far too heavily on works by Penrose and Jensen, quoting various participants some 27 and 34 years after the massacre. As just one of many examples, if Barton's uncorroborated statement some 30 years after the masscare is accurate, indeed Haight regretted following Dame's order and of course regretted not following the council's decision. So why does Vengeance need to twist this around to present a supposition in order to implicate Haight? Why not address Dame's own admission or Dame's miraculous sudden bail arrangement after the Beaver "Railroad Meeting"? If Dame had simply faced questioning under oath (he was caught and jailed) rather than receiving an amazing last second bail release, then either Dame would have lied or implicated himself. Vengeance suggests that the 1858 Dame investigation aquits Dame of being responsible for the massacre, yet not one of the 13 Complaints in that investigation had anything to do with the massacre or its decision. Not one! So why would Vengeance make this kind of aquittal conclusion then follow it up by stating Haight did not "fair so well"? There was never an investigation of Haight or a list of Complaints filed against Haight by his peers. Dame's peers did not respect him hence an official 4-day investigation of him signed by his own councilors and all leading men of Parawon except for two loyalists, Martineau and Pendleton. I could go on and on. Maybe someday someone will address, one by one, all the suppositions Vengeance relies on and present only the facts. The story will then be shorter and truer. Still today, the best, most accurate, and most honest account belongs to the heroic Juanita Brooks.
I have heard that Isaac Heights descendants were cursed because of his involvement. Is there any truth to that?
Thank you for your honest work on this very, very sad subject. My only consolation is that the Atonement of Jesus Christ can heal the victims and the perpetrators as well as all of us.
"These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelations 7:14-17