I'm with you here, I thought it was pretty obvious that nothing will ever get banned again with all the busted cards we've gotten over the last couple years? My only question is why they haven't unbanned everything.
Honestly, the community should just put together a list that is easily accessible that does that. The rules committee isn't needed to do that. EDHRec's salt score is a good example of an attempt at that.
@@jasonritner9662 that works for casual games, but cEDH is letter of the law and only uses official rulings. So only Rules Committee bans will be honored.
@@bg1020 I wasn't really talking about cEDH. I was referring to the OP's list idea and pointing out it doesn't need the rules committee to create such a list of difficulty causing cards.
The way I see it, the whole commander rules committee situation is actually absurd. The group is made up of random basically volenteers managing about half the profits of a multi-million dollar company, and because they aren't official members of WOTC they have no real guidelines about what to ban and when. what is really boils down to is if THEY think its unhealthy for the format based on what they like to play against, so they determine what everyone else has to play. There is absolutely NO reason why primeval titan should be banned while Dockside extortionist isn't banned. There is no reason why biorythm is banned while thassa's oracle isn't. They should either go all in and ban all these problamatic cards (while unbanning some of the older cards that would not be that good anymore) or just unban everything and let the players decide what they want to play. The root of the problem is that they have no consistant guidelinds about what to ban, somtimes they say accesability i.e. with the power nine but then why isn't geas cradle banned? Somtimes they say for fun like with balance, but then why isn't armageddon banned? somtimes they say for insta wins like for coalition victory, but then why isnt thoracle banned? there is just no consistancy and the reason is because wizards of the coast wont manage it themselves. You have this multi-million dollar company of wizards of the coast who make about half there profit from commander, and it is all managed by like 7 volenteers, is actually a joke and wizards should be embaressed. Just had to get that off my chest EDIT: FREE GOLOS
Your post perfectly sums up the absurdity of the whole Commander banlist process. I hope the powers that be have seen this feedback and have a plan to improve things.
@@HenryStrait-p5c so my understanding is that the banlist is not meant to be this complete/encompassing list of cards that are too strong, but each banning is meant to be a sign post of “things like this are unhealthy/bad/constraining.” So when you say that there is no reason X should be banned while Y is legal, I think you are looking at the banlist from a traditional perspective. I’m not saying your perspective is wrong btw, I wish it was like that too. It is just important that we try to see it how the RC is so that at least we understand where they are coming from.
Braids, Cabal Minion being banned in 4 player commander is absurd as well. Tons of commanders can turn 1 or turn 2 win with a perfect hand. Braids being singled out is silly.
I'd say Golos is the most egregious. All you have to do is play him with Jegantha, the Wellspring and have cards that untap and then everyone else is screwed xD I do agree with some of the other cards though. Also, Coalition Victory is MUCH easier to pull off than you think it is. I'm still salty that Thassa's Oracle isn't banned though. It's just an unfun card for the format and it's ONLY ever used for infinite combos and extremely easy to pull off. I started playing Magic in late 2015 and the game was much different than it is today. Back then I was using Prophet of Kruphix and I loved it haha. I do believe the current ban list should be updated though and that some of the cards should be unbanned. In today's Magic, honestly, Emrakul the Aeons Torn doesn't really need to be banned. There's enough good cards that can stop him. Lutri the Spellchaser isn't even overpowered, there are other cards that do what he does even better.
@@discoviolenza1984Tergrid tends to be ineffective as an archenemy. Not much counteracts Nadu and it is very easy to have the combo setup in advance of playing Nadu by turn two, where once they cast it, they very likely can win outright; Tergrid by contrast likely won’t even see play until turn three to four and will not be able to combo until the next turn when they untap. If you remove Tergrid, it does not inherently offset the Commander tax by putting lands into play and becomes increasingly difficult to re-cast. Tergrid is a problem if not removed (or player removal). Nadu is a problem even if removed.
The rules committee has banned plenty of things for "excessively long turns" etc. *That's* where a Nadu ban is possible. Not for power, but for how incredibly long the turns take. Paradox Engine, for instance, was primarily banned for this, yes it was powerful and an artifact that could go in any deck, but far nastier things were running around that didn't result in such egregiously long turns (that could still result in non-wins). While I don't think it's *likely* that Nadu catches an EDH ban, it's probably much more possible than things like Dockside and Thoracle. Separating cEDH and EDH is a fool's errand. cEDH is the highest expression of power and "play to win" within the commander format, it's about maximizing decks within the limitations of the format. If you separate the two, you get cEDH, EDH and cEDH-with-the-EDH-banlist. No amount of format splitting will change that. cEDH also largely doesn't even care about the banlist (with the exception of Flash). Of course cEDH decks follow the banlist, but if Thassa's Oracle and Underworld Breach got banned tomorrow, then cEDH players would just find the next best combos to use. It's a proxy friendly community, so bans are really not a big deal to cEDH. Heck, many of the Top 100 Saltiest cards in the format aren't even played in cEDH. If *Armageddon and Jokulhaups* were banned tomorrow, cEDH wouldn't even change. Blaming cEDH for cards not being banned is just not accurate. cEDH vs EDH is much more akin to playing a modern deck at a tournament, vs. playing modern at a kitchen table/open play rather than a completely different format. At a tournament, everyone expects you to bring the best deck you can within the format, there's no salt about bringing a really strong card or deck. At a kitchen table/open play, there can be meta decks or janky pet piles all within the format definitions of modern, if you want to have fun, competitive matches, then the people playing have to talk to each other about their expectations around the game, there's just no getting around that. Magic has way too many possibilities in deck building to be able to neatly put power levels in a box by just changing format definitions. For the same reasons, every table and player is different. I've been in groups where any infinite combo is absolutely off-limits, no matter how many cards it takes to assemble, but Craterhoof Behemoth and Atraxa infect are fine. I've been in other groups where 2 card win-the-game combos are no problem, but mass land destruction is a capital offense. The rules committee uses a light touch and always has partially because playgroups are so diverse.
No guano.. Also "excessive bookkeeping" .. it's not twice per turn.. It's not twice per creature.. It's twice per ability per turn and each creature has an ability per Nadu.. Imagine if somebody makes a (nonlegendary) copy of nadu -- now every creature has two of the abilities that can trigger max twice a turn - some of them may have triggered twice... And the cards are revealed and put in hand.. I don't know if in paper play you are allowed to put them in hand physically or do you leave revealed cards on board (I play on Arena where you always see the revealed card novadays) - if you physically put them on hand - the opponents might want to take notes of what you have.. And even if they are on board - that's just silly amount of information to handle..
My LGS has a policy, when you pay for commander pod on Friday he asks "casual or competitive". You get grouped with that preference, everyone's happy. This is an excellent example of how actually splitting the format between cEDH and EDH would fix a lot of the issues.
Just curious, do you have any pubstompers going into the casual pods? We have a casual EDH day at one of the local LGS and I swear people are like "yeah this was my CEDH deck but I powered it down" and then start comboing by turn 4-5.
“My deck is high power but not cEDH, I’ll play with the casual groups” *wins on turn three* It’s a good start lad but who’s deciding which cards are too strong for cEDH? If it’s the players it’ll never work which is why we need a seperate banlist for EDH and cEDH
decent solution, I wish there was a clear line between the two. my solution is to unban almost everything for cedh and force them to play with moxen and other cards that clearly distinguish power level. It's a win/win, they get faster games and casuals get a clear definition.
@@revanliviar1239 The issue you will have is the vast majority of annoying cards don't see play in CEDH so there not actually leaving the format with a split. Following 60 card magic and doing a Legacy/Modern system might work but that has it's own problems.
I disagree I don't know why you think people will try and build cedh decks in casual if cedh gets its own seperate format. Cedh is not the meta it is a niche of the format. Cedh being its own format would simply let it have its own separate and PROPER banlist.
I feel like cEDH is a mindset. Build whatever the strongest thing is available. Imo dividing the format into casual and cEDH isnt the best idea because it just fractures the community. People will still build whatever the new strongest thing possible in the new "casual" EDH.
I think Nadu has a chance of being banned because it follows some logic of other banned edh cards. It's not just because it's too strong, but because the "time economy" of a Nadu deck is like Paradox Engine. It turns into a game of solitaire too easily, and despite what some people may try, there might not be a way to build a "casual Nadu" deck. That will lead to awkward situations and feels bad for either the "casual Nadu player" who gets hated out of the table or the people who have to suffer a 15 minute non-deterministic durdle turn during a "casual game" of commander.
There is really no such thing as a casual Nadu deck. The problems are built into the Commander. Goldfish just released a video about OP commanders and summed it up rather well in discussing Korvold (which they called a lesser Nadu) that unless you intentionally remove all cards with potential synergy, ie. a Korvold deck that cannot sacrifice except from Korvold triggers or a Nadu deck, that cannot target its creatures, they are inherently broken and archenemy commanders.
I agree. Golos was banned because he pays for his own command tax, Nadu easily can ramp those two lands quickly and benefits from interaction as well and has good stats with flying for the cost.
@@joshcleland1988 Golos was actually banned because it was not in the spirit of Commander. Golos had synergy with nearly any deck (when is ramp and casting your spells for free ever going to be bad) and allowed you to just play all 5 colors. You could effectively replace most Commanders with Golos. The stats were showing that nearly 1/5th of decks were running Golos as the Commander (so in most games, there was probably a Golos player).. Edit: If paying for your own Commander tax were seen as necessary to ban, Yuriko would have been first to go.
I really wish there would be two separate formats of Commander like "Classical" or "Timeless" and "Limited" or "Restricted"...One where everything goes like the format we have now and another curated (preferably by WOTC) to get a properly balanced gameplay experience.
I’ve said for years Commander needs more sub-formats so that people don’t have to negotiate what game they are going to play and not play. I’ve never played commander because I don’t want to have to find a niche group to play in. I prefer sanctioned formats with universal rules.
my solution is to have vintage edh and legacy edh. let cedh proxy moxen and lotus, this will create a clear distinction between the two because in order to be competitive most decks will need to play with power in order to keep up.
Good thing they haven't added the designers name on the card. People would probably be unneceasarily critical towards them. But yeah Nadu is a handful and an interesting discussion.
100% for separation of cEDH and EDH. Players that play will have no issue keeping up with the differences. Cuts down on the feels bad as if you're playing casually you know what cards can be expected. Helps slim down the rules 0 conversation. Honestly, hate rule 0 as there are many people that won't speak up for what they want in a game. Then a card comes out they don't like and they get salty.
I somewhat agree with you. As an old school player that back in the day saw lots of mass land destruction and anything else that was bad, you just dealt with it. It was expected. But today people are different, the format is different. It's called casual for a reason, and while I personally rather go back to the days with putting the most degenerate shit possible in a deck, here we are playing causal
@@FatstaxMTG maybe for the autistic win grinders. I'm sorry that WOTC fucked up every format they had control over, so that only Commander matters now, and competitive players had to immigrate to a casual format to get their kicks.
Kinda wish the would unban old cards to Start banning newer ones. I do believe a ban list for certain formant would be good because magic has bans for different formats anyway.
One hypothesis I read on Reddit was maybe they made a mistake with the quotation mark and it should have said: Creatures you control have “Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, reveal the top card of your library. If it’s a land card, put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put it into your hand." This ability triggers only twice each turn. That way the "this ability triggers only twice" is not on every card, just on Nadu. So you could only get 2 triggers total.
Yeah I'm sure that it was at one point basically once per creature or just twice per turn total and they changed it back and forth in development and someone changed it to the twice per turn but forgot to adjust the wording.
I don't think that wording works. Outside of the quotation marks, that last line is modifying Nadu's static ability, not the triggered ability on each creature, and since it's a static ability and not a triggered ability, saying "it only triggers twice" is meaningless, and would do nothing. It needs to be inside the quotation marks to modify that ability, since each creature now has that ability. They just needed to put the ability on Nadu, not on each creature.
I prefer that banning be limited, but if they do not ban Nadu, I don’t know why we even have a ban list. I would prefer a return of the “banned as a Commander” list; I don’t much care about cards like Nadu in the 99, but it is utterly broken as a Commander. It would be like dockside extortionist being your Commander.
It's funny that the format has more attention than ever, has more need for curation than ever, and has more zealotic fans who would gladly preach whatever changes might be handed down than ever before... and there's less communication and less action from the rules committee than ever before, too. I don't really get it. Change the name to "suggestions committee," publish massive and sprawling banlists and explanations to curate different EDH formats (low-mid-high~CEDH), and then tie it all off with a bow and say "but these are just suggestions, so figure it out for yourself in your playgroups or stores."
I feel like they need to either ban more cards or just unban everything. The ban list should be made more consistent. Some of the banned commanders make no sense, like Rofellos when Kinnan is just a better version of Rofellos.
Honestly I used to hope they continue to ban stuff, but I’m starting to get off it. The fact that consecrated sphinx didn’t catch a ban 10+ years ago, dockside today, etc. makes it so erratic and inconsistent that I’d rather know I’m safe to buy a dockside rather than sit on the fence for 9 months about dropping $80 on a card that if it caught a Ban would become literal bulk. It definitely sucks playing against people who play thoracle and the like with your casual decks but wizards clearly refuses to regulate so now it’s my job, which wasn’t really a thing 5ish years ago you could really pull up with anything and as long as it wasn’t cEDH you were probably fine. Everyone has their own opinion on what is acceptable which is why a ban list was necessary, but with such lazy regulation we now need these “pregame talks” and whatever to ensure everyone has an even playing field
Before watching, my take is the RC did almost nothing for years until they hit Hullbreacher & Golos. Now, its been not only years of doing nothing while Dockside ruins casual tables, but Sheldon also passed. I thought maybe sheldon was the conservative one and we’d get more restraint put on the casual format thats starting to be too high powered but i guess not.
fanatic of rhonas is another example of cards that are way too strong, im not advocating for a ban but i think its such a ridiculous card, i want to put it in my goreclaw power 4+ matters deck (bc its a mana dork and it specifically gets stronger when another powr 4+ creature is on the battlefield), but it feels just too strong to include in it, i wish i just tapped for 2 mana instead of 4, its just an extreme powercrept version of whisperer of the wilds
The first, second, third, fourth, and fifth time I read Nadu, my brain automatically corrected the text to read " *Whenever a creature you control* becomes the target of a spell or ability, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, put it into the battlefield *tapped* . Otherwise put it into your hand. This ability only triggers twice each turn." The card is so broken that it's like an Eldritch horror and my brain would rather perceive it as what it should be than what it actually is.
As someone who plays both casual commander and cEDH, I would be totally fine separating the two formats with their own ban lists. I think the issue is TRC wouldn't want to deal with the distinction between the two and there would likely have to be a different rules committee dedicated to cEDH. With that said, it is pretty interesting that so many cards are shadow banned in casual and most players choose not to play the most powerful cards which reinforces the idea that nothing will get banned again. The format regulates itself which I'm also totally fine with.
my solution is to unban almost everything for cedh. force them to proxy power so that they can't play moxen at casual tables. this would create a clear line between the two
Thassa oracle - If I combo on the same turn with my labman is it not the same? I don't play thassa and I use at least a 3 pieces combo usually, i feel is weird to think this way- but when winning on the same turn does it even matter?
I think Nadu, will go the same way as Primespeaker Vanifar, you can build it supremely strong so it wins insanely quickly but it's kinda boring to play multiple times. These sorts of commanders have a really short half-life of popularity then just burnout when the next busted commander hits a month later. The things that will get banned are the stuff like lutri that just has no downside for specific colours, stuff like arcane signet isn't a problem because everyone can play it but Lutri is the 101 card for any deck that runs izzet colours...
Personally, I think you have to define unfun play patterns. Otherwise, wizards will keep pushing power level. Starting with fast mana/fast mana combos.
I think you can use Thoracle fairly. What really breaks that card are the cheap “empty your library” effects. Using it to dig in a wizard or merfolk deck is pretty balanced
in all honesty, what is keeping the rules commitee in charge? im just asking bc im not sure. are they sanctioned by WOTC or are they just there and no one else has tried to change that?
For the most part self moderation works but I feel like there are some cards which would benefit the entire format, casual and competitive, to ban, like Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Study. In any case, I'd like the RC to outright say if they intend to never do anything again because it's so dumb that we have to even speculate like we're doing right now.
Those cards are ok in the right tables. In low lvl casual they are not. In high lvl casual or cEDH they are very good, but everyone is playing good cards, so... I think Tithe should never be paid unless it's completely necessary, and the card cost 4. With Rhystic I disagree completely. Always pay the one unless you NEED to play something or you are going to combo off in that moment//win the next turn. For cEDH, cards that create a "meta" (the main combos of the format) should be banned, like Thoracle and Breach, because they are toxic and they've been the best combos for four and a half years now. For casual, heavy stax pieces or strong value engines are a problem, cause here, and taking into account that you want to win, you wanna have fun for an hour or more in a game, and playing stax is lame. But banning a card right now it's complicated. There are so many good and game breaking cards in every color.
@@strataslayer2512 I chose them not because I think they're oppressive but because they waste time with triggers on two extremely basic game actions. Yeah they're iconic, but in the most obnoxious way; I play them in my high power and cEDH decks because they're very effective in multiplayer, but I honestly think games would be more interesting and quicker if they weren't in the format.
I wanted to play Nadu in the 99 of my Otrimi mutate deck, but i got afraid of the price and people misunderstanding i just wanted to draw whenever i mutated...
Win cons like Thoracle don't get hit, esp cedh. Dockside is a healthy response to sol+mox+crypt, which are fundamental pieces to getting to play what you want. Stax don't win so typically not banned. Most of the banlist are cards that shut out players from playing anything without affecting the user and reserved list cards that would be commander staples.
Dockside : Powerful, can combo and loop and win the game. Thoricle : Powerful, hard to interact with, wins the game. Nadu : Non-deterministic durdling for a half hour and maybe wins the game. Nadu is such a negative play experience without outright winning the game that it should be addressed. If this was just an A + B combo commander it would be ok because at that point it would at least respect everyone's time.
One correction: The Rules Committee did not invent EDH. It was a format well before they existed. They basically got to be in charge because they publicly codified the rules.
@@iM0rb1d He literally does say that in passing. What that has to do with his point is that they are not only bad at their jobs as he's pointing out, they also shouldn't have that authority.
The creator who “invented” EDH, was Sheldon Menery, who until he passed away last year, was on the rules committee overseeing the ban list. So “they” did not invent EDH, but did include the person that did.
There is no difference between cedh and "casual" edh. Competitive decks play from the same card pool as casual, but use the best cards in the most efficient manner. This is like saying budget modern decks should be relegated to a different format because they aren't competitive modern decks that are seen at pro tours. Cedh is a meta game within the commander format.
They better not touch my boy Dockside Extortionist. They’ve power crept cards so much over the last few years they might as well reprint the reserved list since they’ve printed stuff that makes them not as powerful as they once were.
My groups are cedh so after being thrown to the wolves so many times I don't really think there needs change. Just keep players educated on what they are doing or getting into. That's one thing I love about my groups is that they're educated and play good magic. Great for building experience.
I like your point about CEDH and commander being different formats. I get frustrated by people who insist that they are the same thing because they use the same rules. Yes, they use the same rules, but the goal of CEDH is different, the decks look different, and if you roll up to a Commander table with a CEDH deck, people tend to get pretty upset. Some of us play this game for expression and creativity, not because we want to win all the time.
I built a casual Urza deck. It is 20 packs of themed artifacts that you role 4 d 20 at the start of the game to determine what is in your deck. There are some truly awful artifacts in the packets. My favorite is titled TLDR and is all the artifacts that I could find that had the most text on them.
There are many cards on the ban list that are worse than currently legal cards. If they aren't going to ban cards, they need to unban the current ones.
i mean, we have a powerlvl scale and it should work fine, but my "hot" take: casual is not high power. why is that important? cause most content creators are playing on a high power lvl (the 7 or 8 on a scale) and sometimes call it casual while its not. cause of that players get confused. thats the main issue. you wont see a nadu on casual and below, you will see it in high power or cedh and there its fine.
They could always go the errata route like what they did for the companion mechanic. Powering down cards is an option it's just more legwork for them to correct.
I think it is good that the committee doesn't buckle down and ban every card people complain about the most. They let the cards cook for a long period of time before they start banning them (with a few exceptions for quick bans).
another thing to discuss is whether it is a good thing or not that bans rarely have happened. in my opinion, what is currently going on seems to be working fairly well because it is left to each individual pod and playgroup to determine what kind of game they would like to have. I don't see a huge problem with this outside of people intentionally misrepresenting what they have. but in that case it's fairly easy just to cut ties anyway
not only do I agree with you, but I sadly think that this is a design space WOTC is intentionally going to target-because it maxes profit. cards like Nadu/Voja/Urza do everything a corporation would want; not only do they excite casual players who want an easy path to winning games, but they draw a LOT of attention and publicity from everyone in the community. if you make an incredibly pushed card, you excite all the Timmies/Spikes AND you get a ton of respected content creators talking about the card. and no matter what people’s opinions are, the end result is a net-win for WOTC because it’s attention, which helps them sell packs. not to mention, if a card draws a lot of ire and ban talks, it creates this sort of “forbidden” allure. “Gasp! This Card Is So Powerful That Even WOTC Said It Was a Mistake!” this might be pessimistic, but I think they’re always gonna do this because, in a fucked up way, it’s a good marketing strategy. the only thing they need to do is keep topping their last Nadu-like card, a la power creep. and in a way, by discussing it we’re all contributing to it-albeit involuntarily. isn’t Magic fun? aren’t we having fun, everyone? 🥲
I don’t think the untapped land really would have changed more than some other cards. I would expect more lists to run tireless provisioner if that was the case. . I run a spells only Nadu and that still works just fine. The win con is different - and honestly faster. half the cards are a bit different but that is a budget thing for me. The idea in general is pure value, no change would have made a difference. I don’t think it needs a ban. There are a ton of broken things to do in commander, this is just one more.
Honestly, at this point. I just want somebody else besides R&C ran the commander banlist. At least wizards tries to keep to a guideline for what cards get banned or not. While the people running the EDH banlist haven't even heard of them apparently.
I don't like Dockside Extorsionist because mainly 2 things: - it punishes hard any artifact deck, and I'm taking into account the Iona, Shield of Emeria banning because it punishes a color, colorless is my color. - it creates long and boring turns. That's about it.
I think they need to focus on unbanning things. Sylvan primordial I think was one of the dumbest bannings yeah it’s great in multiplayer but 1v1 it isn’t great. Land D needs to have less stigma because lands are threats now too.
My main issues with making separate banlists between Casual and cEDH: How much do we need to ban to appease everyone in casual? What if we end up in two sided casual again where people play at the top end of the new format compared to the people playing casually? Even without stax, fast mana, etc., many casual players complain when people build remotely efficient with 15+ pieces of interaction/removal, infinite combos (even if they’re 4+ card infinites), etc. I like the idea on paper, it’s just that the execution sounds like a nightmare
@@damonlouis6536 Well, the thing for the cEDH community is that they actually almost went out of their way to make their own banlist in order to hit more cards because RC does not want to ban cards due to competitive power. There’s also the issue that giving cEDH a more open banlist doesn’t stop the issue casual has with pubstompers as that’s one of the main reasons casual players clamor for the separate banlists.
We will, but it’ll probably be some obscure card that isn’t getting any play now, but will make a new card just completely unbearable to play against, but would be fine otherwise. Think about how Flash and Protean Hulk interact.
Nadu is pushed, but... when seen across the table, all I have to do is keep removal or a counterspell in my opening hand as it has a very obvious play pattern. I do agree that the card is busted, but most decks I have seen tend to not to do a lot without it on the battlefield. I haven't actually minded playing against it because I feel like, while busted in modern, it is objectively worse when multiple players Have a chance to kill it instead of just one.
I think I've seen others say it, but I have no issue with thassa in casual if the real combo pieces aren't there. And id argue thassas on its own is a casual card. It's when you also have things demonic consult that it gets competitive. Like, if you win with thorical after spending the whole game milling yourself for 2 hours that's completely different than winning turn 2 with 2 cards, but I'd be interested hearing other opinions
You listed a lot of ways that they could have made Nadu a lot less powerful. But how about just not doing a 3/4 Flyer for 3 mana lol. A Hill Giant with this ability would be bonkers enough too
No cedh is not a separate format. If anything casual is the oddball. Cedh is edh. In any other format in magic you build decks that are meant to be as powerful as possible. Casual is basically a subset. And the reason you can't have a separate banlist is that you are going to get a new cedh again frog he new banlist. You are kicking the goalpost further down the line. People do that already with pauper edh. If you give me a new ban list I am going to try to find the strongest deck available there. Then you get competitive casual edh... And we failed. I can recommend that we should make a pool of casual decks as guidelines so they can start playing. You know how standard had like 3000 cards? We can do this with edh. Make a curated list of a couple of thousand none rotating cardpool for new players to deep their toes and from there they can venture into the entirety of the format in their own pace.
CEDH exists really as just a nebulous line of power between decks, where once you reach a certain power level, your deck can just become “CEDH”. But the problem is that’s not a hard line, and even if some people agree on certain factors that make a Commander or Commander deck “CEDH worthy”, they won’t fully agree, and there isn’t a hard and fast answer. A tiered ban list would effectively be a warning list more than anything, saying “these are cards you should only play in high power games”. They’d be better off creating a tiered warning system that just explains to players how to recognize what is healthy and unhealthy in decks. Obviously the ultimate perfect answer is just good communication, but if they just set up a document that discusses cards and effect types that generally can cause problems on boards, then that could make communication and individual solving easier.
I enjoy ProActive decks like Voltron and Storm, but I have slowly become the LGS Stax player out of necessity. Wizards keeps printing broken chase cards like Dockside and One Ring. They sell packs so unfortunately no foreseeable bans any time soon. It is really disheartening that things like casual are slowly disappearing from Commander. I built Nadu but haven’t played it yet. I may actually tear it apart. It seems boring to play against.
Not sure if Nadine will get banned. More likely it gets the Chulane treatment by casual players. However, anything that is too abusive AND common may. That card isn’t out there. Sol Ring might be closest to that and it isn’t going anywhere
I don't have a problem with cards being printed that have a clear intention of being CEDH level cards personally. If you have a problem with particular cards being too strong then the issue comes down to the power level you play at and it falls to you and your playgroup to have that kind of conversation. I don't like people complaining about there being very powerful cards coming out when some, like the one ring and orcish bowmasters, are clearly going to be played at the highest level.
The bow master is the least offensive card in this list. Thassa oracle is as bad as your combo to draw your holl deck. If the combo is slow, oracle is ok.
kinda sucks that people hate thassas oracle, cause of cedh. my grixis spellslinger deck takes such advantage of being able to demonic consultation into thassas lol. everyone calls my deck cedh but its just like your average spellslinger deck except it can easily win with those 2 cards. idk maybe im dumb i dont even own fast mana
Tbh if you dont like a card, just run the right removal and pop it on sight. Granted, thats not a surefire way to deal with some cards. Some players just get weird about removal and counters
Most removal targets. That activates Nadu. The only way to get a Nadu without it being able to pop off is non targeted removal. Not all colors have easy access to that.
Only 2 colors have good access to enchantment removal. Only one color has good access to stack interaction. "Just run the right removal" is not an answer. If you're playing a monoR deck your answer to an enchantment is "Hope you draw Scour From Existence, get fucked". Not to mention how many cards can not reasonably be answered by anything but blue. Dockside Extortionist? Oh that's an EtB so only blue can respond to it. The closest thing other colors have is white stax pieces which are drastically worse since they need to be played preemptively and can be removed.
Definitely agree Demo. Not too long ago SaffronOlive posted something about this subject, I might be paraphrasing but he said that the RC’s opinion on the having the rule zero conversation for everything feels like a way of avoiding making potentially unpopular decisions and managing the format and either ban or unban things. They can just sit on their laurels all day and say “Just rule zero” and not actually make any decisions. It feels like a detriment to the format
Personally, I play jank and like long games which is kinda the whole point of EDH. At every shop I play at and in my own playgroup CEDH does not exist and if anyone plays anything like that they get scolded. You do you though.
I understand Sheldon was a huge part of the commander format. But the fact that he didn't stand up to WOTC while he was alive is permanently going to warp the commander format for years to come. I honestly believe commander players' wallets are being power creep farmed right now due to the cowardice of the Rules committee.
Will the rules committee ban anything again? Well, depends on how salty they get when losing to a card. There is no logic or consistency to the ban list. Why is Emrakul banned? Because she "was one of the most common and least-interesting ways to win". Then why isn't Thassa's Oracle banned? Lutri should have never been banned. Maybe "banned as companion", or even just not allow companion in EDH. I'm all for unbanning everything.
Yea tbh unless they somehow print something with power level along the lines of like Griselbrand, i dont really see another creature getting banned in commander for a very long time
@Dragon_Fyre Not really. He's a very powerful cEdh commander, that's for sure. But nowhere near the power level of Griselbrand, Griselbrand is a insane engine all on his own. Nadu is also a very powerful engine, but you do at least have to set him up before he comes online, which gives more chances for interaction than a card like Griselbrand. Nadu is definitely top tier tho, Id put him on the same power level as decks like Kinnan, Yuriko, Tivit, and several others. Mostly the top tier cEdh decks, who all pretty much have some form of massive value generation and / or are able to vomit their deck onto the board. If those commanders are not banned, there is no way Nadu will get hit. I put them all on a similar power level
@@saveachip2620 Griselbrand is largely a problem in CEDH within the 99 rather than the Command Zone. It is actually much worse IMO as a Commander, as you cannot without some effort, discard it to the graveyard and reanimate it. Natural casting it for 7 is less than ideal in CEDH. Nadu, is the opposite. It is a problem as a Commander with a deck built around it but can rather easily be addressed with removal where it is only included in the 99. If there were separate banned in EDH versus banned as a Commander in EDH lists, I would want Griselbrand banned in the 99 and Nadu banned as a Commander.
@Dragon_Fyre Um, no, im sorry dude, but you're just wrong. You dont know the history of Griselbrand then. Back when there was a 'banned as commander' list, wizards put him on that first to see if it would be sufficient to power him down because of the fact that having him as a commander was obscenely powerful. It wasn't enough, however, as Griselbrand is really just that strong of a card, regardless of casting cost or being in the 99 and needed to be banned entirely. My one play group and I actually recently built decks using banned legends as our commanders. I chose Griselbrand, and without even a super optimized decklist, I was able to get him out on turn 1/2, with the absolute latest being turn 3. And basically, at that point, the game is already over, unless you wiff obscenly bad. It's almost impossible to lose if no one has the correct interaction. With Nadu, some games can give a similar outcome, but theres a lot more opportunities to wiff and / or for opponents to interact. The problem with Griselfbrand is even if someone targets to kill him or counter one of your win cons, you simply just draw into a way to reanimate him or another win con or another search spell to grab another win con or reanimation spell. Griselbrand's power is nearly unmatched, Nadu is powerful, but there's still a huge gap between the two.
@@saveachip2620 I know that once it can be cast, it’s an absurd problem that is incredibly difficult to address, but by contrast you do have to cast it and you are not reliably getting 7 mana by turn 1-2 even in CEDH as you suggested. Griselbrand was also banned like 10+ years ago, back when cards like it and Consecrated Sphinx were obscenely powerful card draw in EDH. Nadu has a ton of mana dorks and while it can whiff in terms of winning the game the turn it ETBs, it rather reliably is going to get you a lot of cards and ramp and should be able to hit play by turn 2 (turn 3 with hexproof protection). The game is largely out of hand if not removed immediately. I do think they are relatively comparable for power level as Commanders.
I know I’ve commented pretty negatively on your last couple videos but I agree with this one. And I would actually take it a step further. In a format that is supposed to be self regulating via rule 0 and all the other unwritten rules, why does there need to be a ban list at all. Look at the ban list and their reasoning for why they’re banned. For the power 9 it’s because it’s hella expensive and they didn’t want to promote the idea that you had to spend that kind of money to play the format. Personally, if someone pulled up to my table and said they had some power 9 cards in their deck, hell yeah dude, play em. For the rest of them it’s “they lead to play patterns that aren’t fun”. I swear to god in every casual commander pod every card leads to play patterns that aren’t fun. Counterspells aren’t fun, single target removal isn’t fun, board wipes aren’t fun. My point is, in a self regulating format, there doesn’t need to be a ban list. Also it made me laugh when you said “nadu is even making waves in modern” because I looked at it as “nadu is even making waves in commander” lol
I feel they dont ban stuff now cause wotc now might have a tighter grip on them than ever. The rules commetee existed kind of grandfather in by sheldon. Now that sheldon passed. I feel wotc might have step in harder on them. wotc cant allowed the busted cards of commander be banned cuase they sell like hell. We can complain. But lets be honest are players really not going to crack packs to open a dockside. Even thou thouse same players complained its bad for the format?
I'm with you here, I thought it was pretty obvious that nothing will ever get banned again with all the busted cards we've gotten over the last couple years? My only question is why they haven't unbanned everything.
Well a couple cards I think deserve to be banned, Karakas and Choas Orb, as well as Iona to name a few.
@@Grooove_e Dexterity cards have always been a mistake.
At least unban my boi Golos...
@@LegiondaryBro facts
Why is Griselbrand still banned? For the same effort as having him on the battlefield, you can just win with Thassa's
Tbh I think they should have a list of cards that they should call cards that aren't recommended for casual. Instead of outright banning.
Pretty sure a lot of cEDH players would appreciate an actual ban on some cards to make the format more diverse.
Honestly, the community should just put together a list that is easily accessible that does that. The rules committee isn't needed to do that.
EDHRec's salt score is a good example of an attempt at that.
Certain have to always be banned. I’m referring predominantly to the Ante, Dexterity cards and, sub games.
@@jasonritner9662 that works for casual games, but cEDH is letter of the law and only uses official rulings. So only Rules Committee bans will be honored.
@@bg1020 I wasn't really talking about cEDH. I was referring to the OP's list idea and pointing out it doesn't need the rules committee to create such a list of difficulty causing cards.
Absolutely should have kept "Banned as a Commander and Companion". Nadu would be okay-ish in the 99 of most decks.
The way I see it, the whole commander rules committee situation is actually absurd. The group is made up of random basically volenteers managing about half the profits of a multi-million dollar company, and because they aren't official members of WOTC they have no real guidelines about what to ban and when. what is really boils down to is if THEY think its unhealthy for the format based on what they like to play against, so they determine what everyone else has to play. There is absolutely NO reason why primeval titan should be banned while Dockside extortionist isn't banned. There is no reason why biorythm is banned while thassa's oracle isn't. They should either go all in and ban all these problamatic cards (while unbanning some of the older cards that would not be that good anymore) or just unban everything and let the players decide what they want to play. The root of the problem is that they have no consistant guidelinds about what to ban, somtimes they say accesability i.e. with the power nine but then why isn't geas cradle banned? Somtimes they say for fun like with balance, but then why isn't armageddon banned? somtimes they say for insta wins like for coalition victory, but then why isnt thoracle banned? there is just no consistancy and the reason is because wizards of the coast wont manage it themselves. You have this multi-million dollar company of wizards of the coast who make about half there profit from commander, and it is all managed by like 7 volenteers, is actually a joke and wizards should be embaressed.
Just had to get that off my chest
EDIT: FREE GOLOS
Your post perfectly sums up the absurdity of the whole Commander banlist process. I hope the powers that be have seen this feedback and have a plan to improve things.
@@HenryStrait-p5c so my understanding is that the banlist is not meant to be this complete/encompassing list of cards that are too strong, but each banning is meant to be a sign post of “things like this are unhealthy/bad/constraining.”
So when you say that there is no reason X should be banned while Y is legal, I think you are looking at the banlist from a traditional perspective.
I’m not saying your perspective is wrong btw, I wish it was like that too. It is just important that we try to see it how the RC is so that at least we understand where they are coming from.
Braids, Cabal Minion being banned in 4 player commander is absurd as well. Tons of commanders can turn 1 or turn 2 win with a perfect hand. Braids being singled out is silly.
Decent comment, but then you had to put free golos at the bottom. Sure in competitive you can play him. Not in my friendly casual pod tho
I'd say Golos is the most egregious. All you have to do is play him with Jegantha, the Wellspring and have cards that untap and then everyone else is screwed xD I do agree with some of the other cards though. Also, Coalition Victory is MUCH easier to pull off than you think it is. I'm still salty that Thassa's Oracle isn't banned though. It's just an unfun card for the format and it's ONLY ever used for infinite combos and extremely easy to pull off. I started playing Magic in late 2015 and the game was much different than it is today. Back then I was using Prophet of Kruphix and I loved it haha. I do believe the current ban list should be updated though and that some of the cards should be unbanned. In today's Magic, honestly, Emrakul the Aeons Torn doesn't really need to be banned. There's enough good cards that can stop him. Lutri the Spellchaser isn't even overpowered, there are other cards that do what he does even better.
Nadu is going to be come the new Tergrid in a casual pod.
I would rather play against Tergrid then Nadu. Tergrid wins the game while Nadu wastes everyone's time.
@@discoviolenza1984Tergrid tends to be ineffective as an archenemy. Not much counteracts Nadu and it is very easy to have the combo setup in advance of playing Nadu by turn two, where once they cast it, they very likely can win outright; Tergrid by contrast likely won’t even see play until turn three to four and will not be able to combo until the next turn when they untap. If you remove Tergrid, it does not inherently offset the Commander tax by putting lands into play and becomes increasingly difficult to re-cast.
Tergrid is a problem if not removed (or player removal). Nadu is a problem even if removed.
@@Dragon_Fyre All true and moreover Tergrid isn't going to be protected by counterspells.
@@mikebott6940 There are however black spells for one black that do protect Tergrid returning it to play if it dies.
The rules committee has banned plenty of things for "excessively long turns" etc. *That's* where a Nadu ban is possible. Not for power, but for how incredibly long the turns take. Paradox Engine, for instance, was primarily banned for this, yes it was powerful and an artifact that could go in any deck, but far nastier things were running around that didn't result in such egregiously long turns (that could still result in non-wins). While I don't think it's *likely* that Nadu catches an EDH ban, it's probably much more possible than things like Dockside and Thoracle.
Separating cEDH and EDH is a fool's errand. cEDH is the highest expression of power and "play to win" within the commander format, it's about maximizing decks within the limitations of the format. If you separate the two, you get cEDH, EDH and cEDH-with-the-EDH-banlist. No amount of format splitting will change that. cEDH also largely doesn't even care about the banlist (with the exception of Flash). Of course cEDH decks follow the banlist, but if Thassa's Oracle and Underworld Breach got banned tomorrow, then cEDH players would just find the next best combos to use. It's a proxy friendly community, so bans are really not a big deal to cEDH. Heck, many of the Top 100 Saltiest cards in the format aren't even played in cEDH. If *Armageddon and Jokulhaups* were banned tomorrow, cEDH wouldn't even change. Blaming cEDH for cards not being banned is just not accurate.
cEDH vs EDH is much more akin to playing a modern deck at a tournament, vs. playing modern at a kitchen table/open play rather than a completely different format. At a tournament, everyone expects you to bring the best deck you can within the format, there's no salt about bringing a really strong card or deck. At a kitchen table/open play, there can be meta decks or janky pet piles all within the format definitions of modern, if you want to have fun, competitive matches, then the people playing have to talk to each other about their expectations around the game, there's just no getting around that. Magic has way too many possibilities in deck building to be able to neatly put power levels in a box by just changing format definitions. For the same reasons, every table and player is different. I've been in groups where any infinite combo is absolutely off-limits, no matter how many cards it takes to assemble, but Craterhoof Behemoth and Atraxa infect are fine. I've been in other groups where 2 card win-the-game combos are no problem, but mass land destruction is a capital offense. The rules committee uses a light touch and always has partially because playgroups are so diverse.
No guano.. Also "excessive bookkeeping" .. it's not twice per turn.. It's not twice per creature.. It's twice per ability per turn and each creature has an ability per Nadu.. Imagine if somebody makes a (nonlegendary) copy of nadu -- now every creature has two of the abilities that can trigger max twice a turn - some of them may have triggered twice... And the cards are revealed and put in hand.. I don't know if in paper play you are allowed to put them in hand physically or do you leave revealed cards on board (I play on Arena where you always see the revealed card novadays) - if you physically put them on hand - the opponents might want to take notes of what you have.. And even if they are on board - that's just silly amount of information to handle..
My LGS has a policy, when you pay for commander pod on Friday he asks "casual or competitive". You get grouped with that preference, everyone's happy. This is an excellent example of how actually splitting the format between cEDH and EDH would fix a lot of the issues.
Just curious, do you have any pubstompers going into the casual pods? We have a casual EDH day at one of the local LGS and I swear people are like "yeah this was my CEDH deck but I powered it down" and then start comboing by turn 4-5.
“My deck is high power but not cEDH, I’ll play with the casual groups”
*wins on turn three*
It’s a good start lad but who’s deciding which cards are too strong for cEDH? If it’s the players it’ll never work which is why we need a seperate banlist for EDH and cEDH
decent solution, I wish there was a clear line between the two. my solution is to unban almost everything for cedh and force them to play with moxen and other cards that clearly distinguish power level. It's a win/win, they get faster games and casuals get a clear definition.
CEDH is just the meta of the format you can try and separate it with ban lists but a new CEDH will be born in your "casual" format.
Yes but it will be less powerful than just allowing everything which I find makes casual tables not casual to play at
This is true, and there already is a an apex of casual meta = simic lands strategies
@@revanliviar1239 The issue you will have is the vast majority of annoying cards don't see play in CEDH so there not actually leaving the format with a split. Following 60 card magic and doing a Legacy/Modern system might work but that has it's own problems.
I disagree I don't know why you think people will try and build cedh decks in casual if cedh gets its own seperate format. Cedh is not the meta it is a niche of the format. Cedh being its own format would simply let it have its own separate and PROPER banlist.
Plus I feel like the power scaling of casual is hard to figure out when theres so many ways to make broken decks
I feel like cEDH is a mindset. Build whatever the strongest thing is available. Imo dividing the format into casual and cEDH isnt the best idea because it just fractures the community. People will still build whatever the new strongest thing possible in the new "casual" EDH.
I think Nadu has a chance of being banned because it follows some logic of other banned edh cards. It's not just because it's too strong, but because the "time economy" of a Nadu deck is like Paradox Engine. It turns into a game of solitaire too easily, and despite what some people may try, there might not be a way to build a "casual Nadu" deck. That will lead to awkward situations and feels bad for either the "casual Nadu player" who gets hated out of the table or the people who have to suffer a 15 minute non-deterministic durdle turn during a "casual game" of commander.
There is really no such thing as a casual Nadu deck. The problems are built into the Commander. Goldfish just released a video about OP commanders and summed it up rather well in discussing Korvold (which they called a lesser Nadu) that unless you intentionally remove all cards with potential synergy, ie. a Korvold deck that cannot sacrifice except from Korvold triggers or a Nadu deck, that cannot target its creatures, they are inherently broken and archenemy commanders.
Its not gonna be banned. His play pattern is similar to a storm deck pattern. The problem is that he is too strong
@@vittoriosavian9964 You can ban Nadu. You cannot just ban storm decks.
I agree. Golos was banned because he pays for his own command tax, Nadu easily can ramp those two lands quickly and benefits from interaction as well and has good stats with flying for the cost.
@@joshcleland1988 Golos was actually banned because it was not in the spirit of Commander. Golos had synergy with nearly any deck (when is ramp and casting your spells for free ever going to be bad) and allowed you to just play all 5 colors. You could effectively replace most Commanders with Golos. The stats were showing that nearly 1/5th of decks were running Golos as the Commander (so in most games, there was probably a Golos player)..
Edit: If paying for your own Commander tax were seen as necessary to ban, Yuriko would have been first to go.
I really wish there would be two separate formats of Commander like "Classical" or "Timeless" and "Limited" or "Restricted"...One where everything goes like the format we have now and another curated (preferably by WOTC) to get a properly balanced gameplay experience.
I’ve said for years Commander needs more sub-formats so that people don’t have to negotiate what game they are going to play and not play.
I’ve never played commander because I don’t want to have to find a niche group to play in. I prefer sanctioned formats with universal rules.
Already have two commander formats. Pauper and normal. Pauper has all the busted cards removed.
my solution is to have vintage edh and legacy edh. let cedh proxy moxen and lotus, this will create a clear distinction between the two because in order to be competitive most decks will need to play with power in order to keep up.
Good thing they haven't added the designers name on the card. People would probably be unneceasarily critical towards them. But yeah Nadu is a handful and an interesting discussion.
100% for separation of cEDH and EDH. Players that play will have no issue keeping up with the differences. Cuts down on the feels bad as if you're playing casually you know what cards can be expected. Helps slim down the rules 0 conversation. Honestly, hate rule 0 as there are many people that won't speak up for what they want in a game. Then a card comes out they don't like and they get salty.
If a card comes out and they get salty, it's their fault they didn't say anything assuming they knew of the card's existence.
I somewhat agree with you. As an old school player that back in the day saw lots of mass land destruction and anything else that was bad, you just dealt with it. It was expected. But today people are different, the format is different. It's called casual for a reason, and while I personally rather go back to the days with putting the most degenerate shit possible in a deck, here we are playing causal
@@Layjus123I don’t think many people are keeping up with new cards, especially with how many new sets they are printing.
Cedh is edh and honestly had less feel bads.
@@FatstaxMTG maybe for the autistic win grinders. I'm sorry that WOTC fucked up every format they had control over, so that only Commander matters now, and competitive players had to immigrate to a casual format to get their kicks.
Kinda wish the would unban old cards to
Start banning newer ones.
I do believe a ban list for certain formant would be good because magic has bans for different formats anyway.
One hypothesis I read on Reddit was maybe they made a mistake with the quotation mark and it should have said:
Creatures you control have “Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability, reveal the top card of your library. If it’s a land card, put it onto the battlefield. Otherwise, put it into your hand." This ability triggers only twice each turn.
That way the "this ability triggers only twice" is not on every card, just on Nadu. So you could only get 2 triggers total.
And the funniest thing is that even if it was the case it still would be pretty good card lol
If it had been a mistake, there would have been immediate errata to clarify.
Yeah I'm sure that it was at one point basically once per creature or just twice per turn total and they changed it back and forth in development and someone changed it to the twice per turn but forgot to adjust the wording.
That makes no sense.
I don't think that wording works. Outside of the quotation marks, that last line is modifying Nadu's static ability, not the triggered ability on each creature, and since it's a static ability and not a triggered ability, saying "it only triggers twice" is meaningless, and would do nothing. It needs to be inside the quotation marks to modify that ability, since each creature now has that ability. They just needed to put the ability on Nadu, not on each creature.
I prefer that banning be limited, but if they do not ban Nadu, I don’t know why we even have a ban list.
I would prefer a return of the “banned as a Commander” list; I don’t much care about cards like Nadu in the 99, but it is utterly broken as a Commander. It would be like dockside extortionist being your Commander.
It's funny that the format has more attention than ever, has more need for curation than ever, and has more zealotic fans who would gladly preach whatever changes might be handed down than ever before... and there's less communication and less action from the rules committee than ever before, too.
I don't really get it. Change the name to "suggestions committee," publish massive and sprawling banlists and explanations to curate different EDH formats (low-mid-high~CEDH), and then tie it all off with a bow and say "but these are just suggestions, so figure it out for yourself in your playgroups or stores."
I feel like they need to either ban more cards or just unban everything. The ban list should be made more consistent. Some of the banned commanders make no sense, like Rofellos when Kinnan is just a better version of Rofellos.
Narset, Parter of Veils being legal is absurd when it’s been shown that effect is bannable.
Honestly I used to hope they continue to ban stuff, but I’m starting to get off it. The fact that consecrated sphinx didn’t catch a ban 10+ years ago, dockside today, etc. makes it so erratic and inconsistent that I’d rather know I’m safe to buy a dockside rather than sit on the fence for 9 months about dropping $80 on a card that if it caught a Ban would become literal bulk. It definitely sucks playing against people who play thoracle and the like with your casual decks but wizards clearly refuses to regulate so now it’s my job, which wasn’t really a thing 5ish years ago you could really pull up with anything and as long as it wasn’t cEDH you were probably fine. Everyone has their own opinion on what is acceptable which is why a ban list was necessary, but with such lazy regulation we now need these “pregame talks” and whatever to ensure everyone has an even playing field
Before watching, my take is the RC did almost nothing for years until they hit Hullbreacher & Golos. Now, its been not only years of doing nothing while Dockside ruins casual tables, but Sheldon also passed. I thought maybe sheldon was the conservative one and we’d get more restraint put on the casual format thats starting to be too high powered but i guess not.
I'm still annoyed that Golos was banned.
fanatic of rhonas is another example of cards that are way too strong, im not advocating for a ban but i think its such a ridiculous card, i want to put it in my goreclaw power 4+ matters deck (bc its a mana dork and it specifically gets stronger when another powr 4+ creature is on the battlefield), but it feels just too strong to include in it, i wish i just tapped for 2 mana instead of 4, its just an extreme powercrept version of whisperer of the wilds
The first, second, third, fourth, and fifth time I read Nadu, my brain automatically corrected the text to read " *Whenever a creature you control* becomes the target of a spell or ability, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, put it into the battlefield *tapped* . Otherwise put it into your hand. This ability only triggers twice each turn."
The card is so broken that it's like an Eldritch horror and my brain would rather perceive it as what it should be than what it actually is.
As someone who plays both casual commander and cEDH, I would be totally fine separating the two formats with their own ban lists. I think the issue is TRC wouldn't want to deal with the distinction between the two and there would likely have to be a different rules committee dedicated to cEDH. With that said, it is pretty interesting that so many cards are shadow banned in casual and most players choose not to play the most powerful cards which reinforces the idea that nothing will get banned again. The format regulates itself which I'm also totally fine with.
my solution is to unban almost everything for cedh. force them to proxy power so that they can't play moxen at casual tables. this would create a clear line between the two
Thassa oracle - If I combo on the same turn with my labman is it not the same?
I don't play thassa and I use at least a 3 pieces combo usually, i feel is weird to think this way- but when winning on the same turn does it even matter?
I think Nadu, will go the same way as Primespeaker Vanifar, you can build it supremely strong so it wins insanely quickly but it's kinda boring to play multiple times. These sorts of commanders have a really short half-life of popularity then just burnout when the next busted commander hits a month later.
The things that will get banned are the stuff like lutri that just has no downside for specific colours, stuff like arcane signet isn't a problem because everyone can play it but Lutri is the 101 card for any deck that runs izzet colours...
I'm still on board for a Canadian Highlander style point system.
Personally, I think you have to define unfun play patterns. Otherwise, wizards will keep pushing power level.
Starting with fast mana/fast mana combos.
Wasn’t the last card banned hullbreacher?
I think you can use Thoracle fairly. What really breaks that card are the cheap “empty your library” effects. Using it to dig in a wizard or merfolk deck is pretty balanced
6:00 or so ... By quoting "Commander" in lots of cards, like Freerunner, WorC officially recognize Commander as a format. It's unavoidable
in all honesty, what is keeping the rules commitee in charge? im just asking bc im not sure. are they sanctioned by WOTC or are they just there and no one else has tried to change that?
Y'all ready for Nah, duu duu summer? 🤣
I hope there’s a Nadu ban. It’s awful to play against in cedh too…
For the most part self moderation works but I feel like there are some cards which would benefit the entire format, casual and competitive, to ban, like Smothering Tithe and Rhystic Study.
In any case, I'd like the RC to outright say if they intend to never do anything again because it's so dumb that we have to even speculate like we're doing right now.
Those cards are ok in the right tables. In low lvl casual they are not. In high lvl casual or cEDH they are very good, but everyone is playing good cards, so...
I think Tithe should never be paid unless it's completely necessary, and the card cost 4. With Rhystic I disagree completely. Always pay the one unless you NEED to play something or you are going to combo off in that moment//win the next turn.
For cEDH, cards that create a "meta" (the main combos of the format) should be banned, like Thoracle and Breach, because they are toxic and they've been the best combos for four and a half years now.
For casual, heavy stax pieces or strong value engines are a problem, cause here, and taking into account that you want to win, you wanna have fun for an hour or more in a game, and playing stax is lame.
But banning a card right now it's complicated. There are so many good and game breaking cards in every color.
I disagree with the specific examples you chose, they're kinda just iconic and don't feel too bad to play against
@@strataslayer2512 I chose them not because I think they're oppressive but because they waste time with triggers on two extremely basic game actions. Yeah they're iconic, but in the most obnoxious way; I play them in my high power and cEDH decks because they're very effective in multiplayer, but I honestly think games would be more interesting and quicker if they weren't in the format.
I wanted to play Nadu in the 99 of my Otrimi mutate deck, but i got afraid of the price and people misunderstanding i just wanted to draw whenever i mutated...
Win cons like Thoracle don't get hit, esp cedh. Dockside is a healthy response to sol+mox+crypt, which are fundamental pieces to getting to play what you want. Stax don't win so typically not banned. Most of the banlist are cards that shut out players from playing anything without affecting the user and reserved list cards that would be commander staples.
Dockside : Powerful, can combo and loop and win the game. Thoricle : Powerful, hard to interact with, wins the game. Nadu : Non-deterministic durdling for a half hour and maybe wins the game.
Nadu is such a negative play experience without outright winning the game that it should be addressed. If this was just an A + B combo commander it would be ok because at that point it would at least respect everyone's time.
Another way they could have reined Nadu in a bit was have it say "Other creatures".
One correction: The Rules Committee did not invent EDH. It was a format well before they existed. They basically got to be in charge because they publicly codified the rules.
2 things. 1 he didn't say that the rules committee invented edh. 2 what does who invented it have to do with his point?
@@iM0rb1d He literally does say that in passing.
What that has to do with his point is that they are not only bad at their jobs as he's pointing out, they also shouldn't have that authority.
The creator who “invented” EDH, was Sheldon Menery, who until he passed away last year, was on the rules committee overseeing the ban list. So “they” did not invent EDH, but did include the person that did.
@@Dragon_Fyre EDH was being played years before that. It's just revisionist history giving credit to the first person/people to codify the format.
@@VegtamTheWonderer Source?
There is no difference between cedh and "casual" edh. Competitive decks play from the same card pool as casual, but use the best cards in the most efficient manner.
This is like saying budget modern decks should be relegated to a different format because they aren't competitive modern decks that are seen at pro tours.
Cedh is a meta game within the commander format.
They better not touch my boy Dockside Extortionist. They’ve power crept cards so much over the last few years they might as well reprint the reserved list since they’ve printed stuff that makes them not as powerful as they once were.
My groups are cedh so after being thrown to the wolves so many times I don't really think there needs change. Just keep players educated on what they are doing or getting into. That's one thing I love about my groups is that they're educated and play good magic. Great for building experience.
I like your point about CEDH and commander being different formats. I get frustrated by people who insist that they are the same thing because they use the same rules. Yes, they use the same rules, but the goal of CEDH is different, the decks look different, and if you roll up to a Commander table with a CEDH deck, people tend to get pretty upset. Some of us play this game for expression and creativity, not because we want to win all the time.
Yes. When they feel like it... or when they get absolutely shitstomped in their own casual games by a decently good card
Don't even have to watch the video. The answer is a resounding "fuck no"
I built a casual Urza deck. It is 20 packs of themed artifacts that you role 4 d 20 at the start of the game to determine what is in your deck. There are some truly awful artifacts in the packets. My favorite is titled TLDR and is all the artifacts that I could find that had the most text on them.
Forgot about golos. I thought the last card band was hull breacher that card was absolutely abysmal to play against
There are many cards on the ban list that are worse than currently legal cards.
If they aren't going to ban cards, they need to unban the current ones.
i mean, we have a powerlvl scale and it should work fine, but my "hot" take: casual is not high power.
why is that important? cause most content creators are playing on a high power lvl (the 7 or 8 on a scale) and sometimes call it casual while its not. cause of that players get confused.
thats the main issue.
you wont see a nadu on casual and below, you will see it in high power or cedh and there its fine.
They could always go the errata route like what they did for the companion mechanic. Powering down cards is an option it's just more legwork for them to correct.
Commander rule comittee is asleep at the wheel. Rule Zero doesn't work and there needs to be a split between competitive and casual.
I think it is good that the committee doesn't buckle down and ban every card people complain about the most. They let the cards cook for a long period of time before they start banning them (with a few exceptions for quick bans).
I agree with you, all new cards are so powerful every card should just be legal now.
another thing to discuss is whether it is a good thing or not that bans rarely have happened. in my opinion, what is currently going on seems to be working fairly well because it is left to each individual pod and playgroup to determine what kind of game they would like to have. I don't see a huge problem with this outside of people intentionally misrepresenting what they have. but in that case it's fairly easy just to cut ties anyway
the short answer: "no." The long answer: "nope."
not only do I agree with you, but I sadly think that this is a design space WOTC is intentionally going to target-because it maxes profit.
cards like Nadu/Voja/Urza do everything a corporation would want; not only do they excite casual players who want an easy path to winning games, but they draw a LOT of attention and publicity from everyone in the community. if you make an incredibly pushed card, you excite all the Timmies/Spikes AND you get a ton of respected content creators talking about the card. and no matter what people’s opinions are, the end result is a net-win for WOTC because it’s attention, which helps them sell packs. not to mention, if a card draws a lot of ire and ban talks, it creates this sort of “forbidden” allure. “Gasp! This Card Is So Powerful That Even WOTC Said It Was a Mistake!”
this might be pessimistic, but I think they’re always gonna do this because, in a fucked up way, it’s a good marketing strategy. the only thing they need to do is keep topping their last Nadu-like card, a la power creep. and in a way, by discussing it we’re all contributing to it-albeit involuntarily.
isn’t Magic fun? aren’t we having fun, everyone? 🥲
I don’t think the untapped land really would have changed more than some other cards. I would expect more lists to run tireless provisioner if that was the case.
. I run a spells only Nadu and that still works just fine. The win con is different - and honestly faster. half the cards are a bit different but that is a budget thing for me.
The idea in general is pure value, no change would have made a difference.
I don’t think it needs a ban. There are a ton of broken things to do in commander, this is just one more.
Honestly, at this point. I just want somebody else besides R&C ran the commander banlist. At least wizards tries to keep to a guideline for what cards get banned or not. While the people running the EDH banlist haven't even heard of them apparently.
I don't like Dockside Extorsionist because mainly 2 things:
- it punishes hard any artifact deck, and I'm taking into account the Iona, Shield of Emeria banning because it punishes a color, colorless is my color.
- it creates long and boring turns.
That's about it.
I hope you're right. No cards should be banned in EDH. Just rule zero bad behavior.
Good ol' CEDH, where all the power level 7 decks come out to play.
I think they need to focus on unbanning things. Sylvan primordial I think was one of the dumbest bannings yeah it’s great in multiplayer but 1v1 it isn’t great. Land D needs to have less stigma because lands are threats now too.
My main issues with making separate banlists between Casual and cEDH:
How much do we need to ban to appease everyone in casual?
What if we end up in two sided casual again where people play at the top end of the new format compared to the people playing casually?
Even without stax, fast mana, etc., many casual players complain when people build remotely efficient with 15+ pieces of interaction/removal, infinite combos (even if they’re 4+ card infinites), etc.
I like the idea on paper, it’s just that the execution sounds like a nightmare
yes a casual ban list would be too long. my fix is unban almost everything for cedh, force them to play moxen/lotus so we have a clear distinction
@@damonlouis6536 Well, the thing for the cEDH community is that they actually almost went out of their way to make their own banlist in order to hit more cards because RC does not want to ban cards due to competitive power. There’s also the issue that giving cEDH a more open banlist doesn’t stop the issue casual has with pubstompers as that’s one of the main reasons casual players clamor for the separate banlists.
If you see Nadu in action then you know it SHOULD be banned. It's broken. Dockside and the One Ring should have been banned long ago.
We will, but it’ll probably be some obscure card that isn’t getting any play now, but will make a new card just completely unbearable to play against, but would be fine otherwise. Think about how Flash and Protean Hulk interact.
I wish there was a push by players and influencers to promote formats like Five Below to define a bona-fide casual format.
Nadu is pushed, but... when seen across the table, all I have to do is keep removal or a counterspell in my opening hand as it has a very obvious play pattern. I do agree that the card is busted, but most decks I have seen tend to not to do a lot without it on the battlefield. I haven't actually minded playing against it because I feel like, while busted in modern, it is objectively worse when multiple players Have a chance to kill it instead of just one.
Of course they're not going to ban cards in commander for being too powerful, Time Twister is legal.
I think I've seen others say it, but I have no issue with thassa in casual if the real combo pieces aren't there. And id argue thassas on its own is a casual card. It's when you also have things demonic consult that it gets competitive. Like, if you win with thorical after spending the whole game milling yourself for 2 hours that's completely different than winning turn 2 with 2 cards, but I'd be interested hearing other opinions
You listed a lot of ways that they could have made Nadu a lot less powerful. But how about just not doing a 3/4 Flyer for 3 mana lol. A Hill Giant with this ability would be bonkers enough too
The rules committee is a lame duck
No cedh is not a separate format. If anything casual is the oddball. Cedh is edh. In any other format in magic you build decks that are meant to be as powerful as possible. Casual is basically a subset.
And the reason you can't have a separate banlist is that you are going to get a new cedh again frog he new banlist. You are kicking the goalpost further down the line.
People do that already with pauper edh. If you give me a new ban list I am going to try to find the strongest deck available there. Then you get competitive casual edh... And we failed.
I can recommend that we should make a pool of casual decks as guidelines so they can start playing. You know how standard had like 3000 cards? We can do this with edh. Make a curated list of a couple of thousand none rotating cardpool for new players to deep their toes and from there they can venture into the entirety of the format in their own pace.
We wont see any banes because every member in the RC somehow gets a paycheck from WotC.
CEDH exists really as just a nebulous line of power between decks, where once you reach a certain power level, your deck can just become “CEDH”. But the problem is that’s not a hard line, and even if some people agree on certain factors that make a Commander or Commander deck “CEDH worthy”, they won’t fully agree, and there isn’t a hard and fast answer. A tiered ban list would effectively be a warning list more than anything, saying “these are cards you should only play in high power games”. They’d be better off creating a tiered warning system that just explains to players how to recognize what is healthy and unhealthy in decks. Obviously the ultimate perfect answer is just good communication, but if they just set up a document that discusses cards and effect types that generally can cause problems on boards, then that could make communication and individual solving easier.
“I am your host DE-MO!” Always brightens my day. Thanks for being you and all the great content
I enjoy ProActive decks like Voltron and Storm, but I have slowly become the LGS Stax player out of necessity. Wizards keeps printing broken chase cards like Dockside and One Ring. They sell packs so unfortunately no foreseeable bans any time soon. It is really disheartening that things like casual are slowly disappearing from Commander. I built Nadu but haven’t played it yet. I may actually tear it apart. It seems boring to play against.
Not sure if Nadine will get banned. More likely it gets the Chulane treatment by casual players.
However, anything that is too abusive AND common may. That card isn’t out there. Sol Ring might be closest to that and it isn’t going anywhere
No casual commander is not supported, cedh is
I agree 100% on separating CEDH from Casual.
unban power for cedh, problem solved
I don't have a problem with cards being printed that have a clear intention of being CEDH level cards personally. If you have a problem with particular cards being too strong then the issue comes down to the power level you play at and it falls to you and your playgroup to have that kind of conversation. I don't like people complaining about there being very powerful cards coming out when some, like the one ring and orcish bowmasters, are clearly going to be played at the highest level.
I can’t even imagine someone actually wanting to play Nadu in a casual game. That’s so incredibly lame.
The bow master is the least offensive card in this list. Thassa oracle is as bad as your combo to draw your holl deck. If the combo is slow, oracle is ok.
kinda sucks that people hate thassas oracle, cause of cedh.
my grixis spellslinger deck takes such advantage of being able to demonic consultation into thassas lol. everyone calls my deck cedh but its just like your average spellslinger deck except it can easily win with those 2 cards. idk maybe im dumb i dont even own fast mana
Personally, I agree. We should really separate EDH and cEDH ban lists to keep the spirit of the format.
I hate to say it but looks like Sheldon took the only spine the RC had with him 🫤
I fully support cedh and edh being separated
Tbh if you dont like a card, just run the right removal and pop it on sight. Granted, thats not a surefire way to deal with some cards. Some players just get weird about removal and counters
Most removal targets. That activates Nadu. The only way to get a Nadu without it being able to pop off is non targeted removal. Not all colors have easy access to that.
Only 2 colors have good access to enchantment removal.
Only one color has good access to stack interaction.
"Just run the right removal" is not an answer. If you're playing a monoR deck your answer to an enchantment is "Hope you draw Scour From Existence, get fucked".
Not to mention how many cards can not reasonably be answered by anything but blue. Dockside Extortionist? Oh that's an EtB so only blue can respond to it. The closest thing other colors have is white stax pieces which are drastically worse since they need to be played preemptively and can be removed.
Are they going to ever unban anything I ask.
Definitely agree Demo. Not too long ago SaffronOlive posted something about this subject, I might be paraphrasing but he said that the RC’s opinion on the having the rule zero conversation for everything feels like a way of avoiding making potentially unpopular decisions and managing the format and either ban or unban things. They can just sit on their laurels all day and say “Just rule zero” and not actually make any decisions. It feels like a detriment to the format
No, only more power! 😂
Yeah, I really feel like EDH and cEDH need separate ban lists.
Personally, I play jank and like long games which is kinda the whole point of EDH. At every shop I play at and in my own playgroup CEDH does not exist and if anyone plays anything like that they get scolded. You do you though.
Hopefully, no. To play with less busted cards, play pauper.
I understand Sheldon was a huge part of the commander format. But the fact that he didn't stand up to WOTC while he was alive is permanently going to warp the commander format for years to come. I honestly believe commander players' wallets are being power creep farmed right now due to the cowardice of the Rules committee.
The reserve list need to be banned, for the same reason used to ban the power 9.
that's the most absurd take i've heard i think.
Will the rules committee ban anything again? Well, depends on how salty they get when losing to a card. There is no logic or consistency to the ban list. Why is Emrakul banned? Because she "was one of the most common and least-interesting ways to win". Then why isn't Thassa's Oracle banned? Lutri should have never been banned. Maybe "banned as companion", or even just not allow companion in EDH. I'm all for unbanning everything.
Yea tbh unless they somehow print something with power level along the lines of like Griselbrand, i dont really see another creature getting banned in commander for a very long time
Nadu, Winged Wisdom does not meet that criteria for you ?
@Dragon_Fyre Not really. He's a very powerful cEdh commander, that's for sure. But nowhere near the power level of Griselbrand, Griselbrand is a insane engine all on his own. Nadu is also a very powerful engine, but you do at least have to set him up before he comes online, which gives more chances for interaction than a card like Griselbrand. Nadu is definitely top tier tho, Id put him on the same power level as decks like Kinnan, Yuriko, Tivit, and several others. Mostly the top tier cEdh decks, who all pretty much have some form of massive value generation and / or are able to vomit their deck onto the board. If those commanders are not banned, there is no way Nadu will get hit. I put them all on a similar power level
@@saveachip2620 Griselbrand is largely a problem in CEDH within the 99 rather than the Command Zone. It is actually much worse IMO as a Commander, as you cannot without some effort, discard it to the graveyard and reanimate it. Natural casting it for 7 is less than ideal in CEDH. Nadu, is the opposite. It is a problem as a Commander with a deck built around it but can rather easily be addressed with removal where it is only included in the 99. If there were separate banned in EDH versus banned as a Commander in EDH lists, I would want Griselbrand banned in the 99 and Nadu banned as a Commander.
@Dragon_Fyre Um, no, im sorry dude, but you're just wrong. You dont know the history of Griselbrand then. Back when there was a 'banned as commander' list, wizards put him on that first to see if it would be sufficient to power him down because of the fact that having him as a commander was obscenely powerful. It wasn't enough, however, as Griselbrand is really just that strong of a card, regardless of casting cost or being in the 99 and needed to be banned entirely. My one play group and I actually recently built decks using banned legends as our commanders. I chose Griselbrand, and without even a super optimized decklist, I was able to get him out on turn 1/2, with the absolute latest being turn 3. And basically, at that point, the game is already over, unless you wiff obscenly bad. It's almost impossible to lose if no one has the correct interaction. With Nadu, some games can give a similar outcome, but theres a lot more opportunities to wiff and / or for opponents to interact. The problem with Griselfbrand is even if someone targets to kill him or counter one of your win cons, you simply just draw into a way to reanimate him or another win con or another search spell to grab another win con or reanimation spell. Griselbrand's power is nearly unmatched, Nadu is powerful, but there's still a huge gap between the two.
@@saveachip2620 I know that once it can be cast, it’s an absurd problem that is incredibly difficult to address, but by contrast you do have to cast it and you are not reliably getting 7 mana by turn 1-2 even in CEDH as you suggested.
Griselbrand was also banned like 10+ years ago, back when cards like it and Consecrated Sphinx were obscenely powerful card draw in EDH.
Nadu has a ton of mana dorks and while it can whiff in terms of winning the game the turn it ETBs, it rather reliably is going to get you a lot of cards and ramp and should be able to hit play by turn 2 (turn 3 with hexproof protection). The game is largely out of hand if not removed immediately.
I do think they are relatively comparable for power level as Commanders.
I know I’ve commented pretty negatively on your last couple videos but I agree with this one. And I would actually take it a step further. In a format that is supposed to be self regulating via rule 0 and all the other unwritten rules, why does there need to be a ban list at all. Look at the ban list and their reasoning for why they’re banned. For the power 9 it’s because it’s hella expensive and they didn’t want to promote the idea that you had to spend that kind of money to play the format. Personally, if someone pulled up to my table and said they had some power 9 cards in their deck, hell yeah dude, play em. For the rest of them it’s “they lead to play patterns that aren’t fun”. I swear to god in every casual commander pod every card leads to play patterns that aren’t fun. Counterspells aren’t fun, single target removal isn’t fun, board wipes aren’t fun.
My point is, in a self regulating format, there doesn’t need to be a ban list.
Also it made me laugh when you said “nadu is even making waves in modern” because I looked at it as “nadu is even making waves in commander” lol
I feel they dont ban stuff now cause wotc now might have a tighter grip on them than ever. The rules commetee existed kind of grandfather in by sheldon. Now that sheldon passed. I feel wotc might have step in harder on them. wotc cant allowed the busted cards of commander be banned cuase they sell like hell. We can complain. But lets be honest are players really not going to crack packs to open a dockside. Even thou thouse same players complained its bad for the format?
They're gonna ban around Nadu because they still need to sell product, so goodbye, Shuko!